Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[CalicoKitty]

I have never forgiven him for the "short bus" joke (Not funny)

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

Josh isn't that good an actor.  That scene had to be real.

I disagree. It's scripted and edited. How many takes do you think each scene took? 

23 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

You think the directors and producers told Josh to describe Anna as a "master swallower?" Or to reference "this is Arkansas" when talking about Jana and JD going on a double date with him and Anna?

Yes, I do. 

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Heathen said:

ON CAMERA. 

Sometimes I think "reality TV" is the plague of this century. It's not real, people! We talk about the fake proposals and the fake other stuff, so why do we accept as real heavily scripted and edited bullshit? 

IKR? For my part, I don’t actually watch it, but I enjoy snarking here. I know most of it isn’t real, and I watch other things with my limited TV/movie time. Nor do I follow any reality tv chuckleheads on SM, because much of that is also fake.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Rabbittron]

What do you mean that it's not reality? If everything is fake that means that the fundies where I used to live is correct when they say that Smuggar was railroaded and that the feds planted the fake evidence. 

[floridamom]

The only thing I can say about this is that it reminds me of a statement Michelle made on TV some years ago about "who you really are". She said that what you do when no one is looking is who you really are..(something to that effect). Well, we all know what Josh was doing when no one was looking. I hope she remembers her own statement now.

[Sile]

I would have loved for the prosecutors to say something concerning "helping to clean up crumbs from the table" but it's probably better that they took the high road.

I guess it was entertaining enough for all of Duggar's contradictory statements like "I didn't watch all of it" but "I didn't do anything, I was framed!" and "I never opened it" but "I didn't download anything!".

I wonder if any of the daughters considered filing a VIS, or would those be under seal and people wouldn't know about it?  Certainly not Jessa (and maybe Joy) as she's still hanging onto the family tit, but Jill and Jinger have managed to distance themselves from Duggar Enterprises.  Especially Jinger, who couldn't get further away from them without jumping into the Pacific ocean.

[ginger90]

24 minutes ago, Sile said:

 

I wonder if any of the daughters considered filing a VIS, or would those be under seal and people wouldn't know about it?  Certainly not Jessa (and maybe Joy) as she's still hanging onto the family tit, but Jill and Jinger have managed to distance themselves from Duggar Enterprises.  Especially Jinger, who couldn't get further away from them without jumping into the Pacific ocean.

I’m thinking since they weren’t victims as it relates to this case, a victim impact statement from them would not be applicable. Anyone could write a letter to the judge though, I would think. But would they?

[hathorlive]

23 hours ago, Jeeves said:

It's more of a housekeeping thing and IMO not controversial: the prosecution has also filed a motion for forfeiture of the HP desktop that FF used for the CSAM, which the government seized from his office when they executed the search warrant. I don't think the defense will object, but I suppose they can. The computer has AFAIK been in the hands of the government since the 2019 seizure.

Motion is here: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817.153.0.pdf

This is standard procedure with any device that contains illegal images.  In fact, computers and devices with CP are the only things I don't need a court order or prosecutor approval to wipe.  It's THAT illegal.  Now with things like PII, from fraud cases, I have to wait for someone's approval. It's still illegal information, but someone has to sign off on it.  

[Minivanessa]

1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

This is standard procedure with any device that contains illegal images.  In fact, computers and devices with CP are the only things I don't need a court order or prosecutor approval to wipe.  It's THAT illegal.  Now with things like PII, from fraud cases, I have to wait for someone's approval. It's still illegal information, but someone has to sign off on it.  

Have you ever seen a defendant object to a computer used for CSAM to be forfeited? I'd be surprised if they did, but then people can be - surprising, lol. 

[hathorlive]

19 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

That sounds like a repeat of their initial statement to the court. The whole “he deleted the files right away” ignores all the trouble he went through to get the files in the first place. You can’t just go to Google and search for these images. He set up a partition on his computer and trawled the dark web for them. Even there the images are not easily found (bought) - the people who sell/trade these images take great pains to make sure that they aren’t selling to someone who is running a CSAM sting. For some of these images, you can’t get them unless you provide files in return, to demonstrate that the buyer is legit. There’s nothing to indicate that Josh did this, but just pointing out that the effort required to get the images is not something someone goes through on a whim. He may have deleted the files because someone walked in while he was watching them and he panicked. Or he did have second thoughts after opening the files, but they weren’t permanently erased from his computer. 

In my experience, for what it's worth, pervs throw a big net while downloading CP.  What they get back may not be geared toward their particular twisted desires, so then they delete it.  More seasoned pervs keeps files that don't turn them on in a folder as a trade bait.  So Josh either got stuff he didn't like (wrong age group, wrong gender) and deleted it, or he is a downloader and deleter.  The later is a person who downloads, watches, gets sexual pleasure from it, and then deletes it, knowing where to find it next week when the urge strikes.  Also, most of these idiots don't realize that deleting a file does nothing to the file.  It merely marks the file allocation table that this file can be overwritten.  Give the size of modern hard drives, that doesn't happen too often.  I should say on traditional platter hard drives.  SSD drives tend to do TRIM and clean up operations more frequently, so files are discarded faster.

[hathorlive]

15 hours ago, Trillium said:

Josh got married for the same reason young fundies marry, to have a God approved three way with Jesus. 

Oh my god.  I'm going to make this a bumper sticker and put it on the back of my car.  Brilliant language!!!

[Minivanessa]

I've been thinking about the way Josh came across on the TV shows and the issue of how much it was scripted.

I believe it was scripted - as in the producers creating activities for the family to do in front of the cameras. Home projects, shopping trips, "charity" events, and of course those foreign trips and honeymoon trips. And the pickle jar shots. Sigh.

Given the nature of the Duggars I'm not so sure they were frequently given lines to say. This wasn't a group of fame-hungry adults who were wise to the ways of the world. I could see people like that being happy to be in on the plan, and do their best to act out what the producers want the show to portray. All in the name of being a Reality TV Stah.

But, this was a sheltered mom with her X number of kids, who had very limited exposure to the Big Bad Secular World. I think JB was less sheltered but very opinionated and stubborn. Meech and JB were thrilled to be sat in front of a camera to babble on and on and ON about their rules and opinions and methods for protecting their family from The Evil Things, and all the babeez Michelle delivered.

I think the producers could set up the family in situations (cooking pies, going shopping, a home project, a trip, whatever), and just let them roll with it. I believe the producers asked them questions that would prompt them to talk, both in THs and more "candid" shots. 

I just don't think they could - or needed to - put words in the Duggars' mouths very often, if at all.

Josh came across over the course of many episodes, as someone who was nicknamed "Smuggar" in the predecessors to this forum - well before Joshgate. I believe he came up with the Arkansas double date joke on his own and I think he got off on one more time that he fooled the world and was joking about it. It's possible the producers manipulated events so that Josh was filmed letting his bride lug all the suitcases up to the door of the honeymoon suite. But somehow I doubt it. I think most people would have instinctively reached out and helped their spouse with the luggage. Josh may have been so thrilled to be on camera that it never occurred to him to try to help with the bags, which shows a deficit in his understanding of the optics of a situation, if nothing else. 

About Meech being naive. Sometime after Joshgate someone who said they worked on the production crew on the show talked (reddit?) about it. They said that they were sternly instructed NOT to interact with the family. They described Michelle as someone who was very sheltered from the world with not a lot of knowledge of it - and by extension the kids too. They said that they had the feeling that talking to Michelle you'd have to be careful - like when you're talking to a little kid you don't want to be the one who tells them the real deal about Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. They also said that when the show was sending the family to NYC for the first time to appear on the Today show, Michelle approached them with questions since they'd lived in NYC or something. Anyway, she was almost freaked out with fear that her family would be assaulted on the sidewalks, and fear of Teh Many Gay People there, and so forth. 

[ginger90]

I think if anyone was feeding lines, it was Jim Bob and Michelle.

 

To clarify, I’m not referring to things such as swallowing.

Edited May 20, 2022 by ginger90

[hathorlive]

23 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Have you ever seen a defendant object to a computer used for CSAM to be forfeited? I'd be surprised if they did, but then people can be - surprising, lol. 

It's not something that normally happens.  We don't really care if they object, to be brutally honest. If they want the computer back, it gets wiped and returned with no files, no operating system, nada.  In my 16-17 years doing this, only one time have we recovered family files off a CP computer for the family.  And it was a very specific instance that I pushed for.   The computer belonged to an 18 year old who shot himself shortly after the search warrant was served and the computer was seized.   The family stated that every picture they had of their family was on that computer, as a storage unit burnt down with the originals.  The State Trooper asked me if it was possible, to which we always say no, due to the backlog of cases we have and the time needed to parse through all exported images to make sure no CP was included.  However, this case was from the backwater county I grew up in and I agreed with the Trooper that if we ever expected that entire family/clan to help the police out in the future, we needed to try to do it.  I pointed out that my county has 16K people with three last names.  You piss off one group, and 1/3 of the county will refuse to help the police.  My boss said it was my time and energy and let me do it.   We aren't heartless and for me, the big picture is always the important thing.  

Most families don't want to the computers back.  

[Minivanessa]

5 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I think if anyone was feeding lines, it was Jim Bob and Michelle.

Good point. I agree. 

[GeeGolly]

I agree with @Jeeves, once the scene or activity was set in motion, they let the cameras roll. There's been more than a few times episodes were edited with doubters/haters in mind.

What seemed to happen with all these TLC family reality shows is they started out just following the families around with cameras and then they would become more formulaic - celebrations, travel, events, etc.

As far as Michelle, not only has she come far from who she was in the early years, I also think her early naivety was a combination of 're-learned' innocence and schtick. 

[dariafan]

22 hours ago, SusanM said:

Speaking of the sentencing date - unless it changes it's the 25th?  I plan to be here.  I really appreciate sharing this with all of you.  People in my 'real life' are barely aware of who the Duggars are.

I shall have a fruity beverage ( not an adult 1 cause I will be at work )

[sara416]

The middle paragraph on page 8 of the rebuttal from the feds is truly a thing of beauty. 

[hathorlive]

11 minutes ago, sara416 said:

The middle paragraph on page 8 of the rebuttal from the feds is truly a thing of beauty. 

I'm super impressed with these AUSA's.  They have worked hard to cover every angle of the case and to rebut all avenues of the defense. Excellent work.

[MamaMax]

IMO, reality shows set a lot of stuff up, but peoples personalities and character generally emerge at some point.  Kate Gosselin jumps to mind.  I don't think the Kardashians are a fair comparison bc they actually RUN the show.  They are more sophisticated and I would guess have WAY more editorial control.

 

It doesn't surprise me at all that Josh is who he is. He was spawned into a misogynistic cult  with twisted views of sex and sexuality and  which commodifies children.  Its probably more surprising that the Duggar boys aren't all just like him.

[Notabug]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:24 PM, SusanM said:

I was wondering this as well.  The sentencing date is May 25th I think so they don't have much time to respond if they intend to.  The supposedly hotshot defense team should be thoroughly embarassed by this.  I guess as long as they get paid they don't care but still, it can't be doing their reputation much good.  Not the losing the case, that happens, but the way the don't seem to have been able to coordinate a decent effort to try and mitigate his sentence.

In their defense (see what I did there?), the defense attorneys need the raw material to build their case.  If they get solid materials, the bricks and mortar kind; they can build a terrific defense.  It they don't, they have to work with what is given to them and the whole structure will be rickety and fall over with the first gust of wind.

In this particular case, there was no reasonable way to mitigate any of it and I am sure they tried to talk Joshly and JB into a plea bargain.  You cannot make lemonade if you don't have lemons.  It's like in the old days when we talked about computer data generation: 'Garbage in, garbage out.'

Clarence Darrow himself couldn't have come up with a plausible defense for this guy.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Notabug

[satrunrose]

I don't believe instances of Josh's bad behaviour were made up for the cameras. TLC's version of the Duggars was very happy, "wholesome" and "old-fashioned". "We do things a little differently." as one of them once said (I forget whether it was Meechelle, Josiah, or FF himself). There was some sly pointing out of how ignorant they were (the Ethiopian restaurant, the trip to Japan) but the nasty side of both their personalities and politics was carefully hidden. The fact that Josh's treatment of Anna was so different from the rest of the tone of the series, that it happened several times on different episodes and there were no similar attempts to villainise any of the other kids makes me think that it wasn't part of the script. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by satrunrose

[DXD526]

I'm finally getting around to reading the government's response to FF's attorneys that was issued earlier this week. Thanks to the warnings from you good people here, I skipped sections A and B, since I've been avoiding the specifics of what that sick sack was looking at. I've just started section C, and am already laughing! Do those attorneys hang out here, because they sure can fling the snark! It's a thing of beauty!

It's looking to me like Josh didn't take any of his attorneys' advice, they did what they could with what they had, they gave their best effort, and now they just want to be done with this family. 

Here's to hoping Pest gets the max. That's improbable, but double digits would be nice. He spent so many years holding himself up as an example, and now we know what this 'good Christian man' was doing behind closed doors. All while spreading disgusting lies about people who are different from him. The immorality and hypocrisy is off the charts. 

Five days and counting!

[Cinnabon]

13 hours ago, floridamom said:

The only thing I can say about this is that it reminds me of a statement Michelle made on TV some years ago about "who you really are". She said that what you do when no one is looking is who you really are..(something to that effect). Well, we all know what Josh was doing when no one was looking. I hope she remembers her own statement now.

And Boob said sexual offenders should be given the death penalty. They’re both lying hypocrites.

[SMama]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

And Boob said sexual offenders should be given the death penalty. They’re both lying hypocrites.

JB did want capital punishment for incest, which still works. 

[skatelady]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

JB did want capital punishment for incest, which still works. 

And it's crazy to think he said that all the while knowing what Josh did to his sisters. What gall. 

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, SMama said:

JB did want capital punishment for incest, which still works. 

Since it “happens in most families,” according to him, he’d like to send quite a few people to the gallows, right?

[Hockey Addict]

Duggar gossip and tea channel not very old 

https://youtube.com/channel/UCbzw1YsXsR4IRryLxHHDFQw

 

[galaxygirl76]

10 hours ago, skatelady said:

And it's crazy to think he said that all the while knowing what Josh did to his sisters. What gall. 

If you ignore it it will go away, amirite! /jimboob logic

[Westiepeach]

Getting real!

[Teriacky]

I can’t believe Michelle signed her name with a heart over the “i. On a legal document!!

 

[MaryAnneSpier]

Is the general public allowed into the courtroom for sentencing? 

[emmawoodhouse]

3 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

Is the general public allowed into the courtroom for sentencing? 

I think so. Emily D Baker was planning to go on the original sentencing date. Not sure what her plans are now.

[Notabug]

5 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

Is the general public allowed into the courtroom for sentencing? 

They were allowed in for the trial, so they should be allowed for the sentencing.  However, the courtroom is small and I expect a lot of press will be there and perhaps some Duggars other than Josh, so there would be very limited seating for them.

[SMama]

If the courthouse doesn’t have a back or side exit we will be treated to a very pissed off Anna leaving the building. Even if the FF only gets five years it will be the ultimate affront to AnnaBot, and she’s not keeping sweet.

Will JB stand and object to the sentence, or is his backside still burning from the spanking the judge handed him? 

Will Michelle attend and wail in dolphin squeals while her golden penis is led out of the courtroom wearing a jail jumpsuit? 

[Westiepeach]

16 minutes ago, SMama said:

Will Michelle attend and wail in dolphin squeals while her golden penis is led out of the courtroom wearing a jail jumpsuit? 

I really doubt MeChelle will attend.

[GeeGolly]

I wonder if Michelle has visited him in jail. Tomorrow maybe the last they'll see Josh, for what I'm guessing will be at least a month.

[emmawoodhouse]

15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I wonder if Michelle has visited him in jail. Tomorrow maybe the last they'll see Josh, for what I'm guessing will be at least a month.

Pardon my ignorance. Why the hold on seeing the FF? It's still a few days from Sentencing Day. And why can't they see him afterward? He'll be kept local until they find him a spot at the Fed Pen. 

[kaleidoscope]

Was money/payment involved in FF's crimes?  I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere and have wondered.

[Rabbittron]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

If the courthouse doesn’t have a back or side exit we will be treated to a very pissed off Anna leaving the building. Even if the FF only gets five years it will be the ultimate affront to AnnaBot, and she’s not keeping sweet.

Will JB stand and object to the sentence, or is his backside still burning from the spanking the judge handed him? 

Will Michelle attend and wail in dolphin squeals while her golden penis is led out of the courtroom wearing a jail jumpsuit? 

Of course Auqanet will tell the judge that he doesn't accept the sentence and he will ask the judge if he accepts the sentence.

Clown Car will not be there because it is only for men folk. 

[GeeGolly]

28 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Pardon my ignorance. Why the hold on seeing the FF? It's still a few days from Sentencing Day. And why can't they see him afterward? He'll be kept local until they find him a spot at the Fed Pen. 

I wasn't thinking about him being in holding. I think once he's moved they'll be a processing period and I believe all his visitors will have to get CORIed again and submit what ever paperwork. And I assume it may be a ways away, so its not like they can jump in a car and go see him on a whim.

[emmawoodhouse]

Oh, I agree. Chances are very high that he'll go out of state.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Pardon my ignorance. Why the hold on seeing the FF? It's still a few days from Sentencing Day. And why can't they see him afterward? He'll be kept local until they find him a spot at the Fed Pen. 

Is the jail still on COVID restrictions?  Much of the time he's been held, they weren't letting visitors into the jail, they were doing video visits.  According to their websites, they are still doing virtual visits only.

I don't think Michelle will go to court either, not only because she's wimminfolk, but also because I don't think even JB knows how she will react to the whole thing.  She seems barely catatonic much of the time, but seeing FF in handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit and then hearing all those ungodly prosecutors say all those awful things about the Golden Prince; she could either fall to the floor in a dead faint or end up speaking in tongues.  In a very loud voice, using words we didn't think would ever cross her lips.

No matter where FF ends up incarcerated, very few people from the family will visit much, if at all.  Of course Anna will show, as will JB but probably not as much as Anna.  Michelle is not going but maybe once or twice a year and I don't see them bringing any of their under 18's along. I don't see any of his sisters visiting, even if the fed was in their back yards.  Even his brothers will visit him rarely or not at all, IMO.  JD wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire from what I can tell and, even the ones who might be more forgiving like Jed! seem to have moved on with their lives and I don't think will go out of their way to pay a visit.  I think there will be plenty of visitors' days where FF is not going to make it to the visitation room at all.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Notabug

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, kaleidoscope said:

Was money/payment involved in FF's crimes?  I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere and have wondered.

I don't think we've heard and I don't know anything about the dark web, but it does seem like some sort of transaction would be required, doesn't it?  I think maybe we don't want to know how he paid.

[emmawoodhouse]

Regarding the kids, remembering Teresa Giudice taking kids to see Dad in the pen, I recall an age limit. Maybe 12 and up? But being convicted of CSAM crimes, will they allow any of the kids at all?

[Cinnabon]

8 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Is the jail still on COVID restrictions?  Much of the time he's been held, they weren't letting visitors into the jail, they were doing video visits.

I don't think Michelle will go to court either, not only because she's wimminfolk, but also because I don't think even JB knows how she will react to the whole thing.  She seems barely catatonic much of the time, but seeing FF in handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit and then hearing all those ungodly prosecutors say all those awful things about the Golden Prince; she could either fall to the floor in a dead faint or end up speaking in tongues.  In a very loud voice, using words we didn't think would ever cross her lips.

No matter where FF ends up incarcerated, very few people from the family will visit much, if at all.  Of course Anna will show, as will JB but probably not as much as Anna.  Michelle is not going but maybe once or twice a year and I don't see them bringing any of their under 18's along. I don't see any of his sisters visiting, even if the fed was in their back yards.  Even his brothers will visit him rarely or not at all, IMO.  JD wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire from what I can tell and, even the ones who might be more forgiving like Jed! seem to have moved on with their lives and I don't think will go out of their way to pay a visit.  I think there will be plenty of visitors' days where FF is not going to make it to the visitation room at all.

Anna will be able to visit only when she gets a chaperone to take her by plane or car to wherever he ends up. God forbid she go alone!

[DXD526]

Pest can't get a long sentence! Think of the crackers!

[Notabug]

6 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Regarding the kids, remembering Teresa Giudice taking kids to see Dad in the pen, I recall an age limit. Maybe 12 and up? But being convicted of CSAM crimes, will they allow any of the kids at all?

According to the fed website, children under 16 can visit but must be accompanied by an adult and with the approval of the child's other parent or guardian.  The website doesn't show any restrictions base on the crime; if an inmate is cleared for visitors, it looks like there is one set of rules.

Not that this is the last word, but, on Orange is the New Black, the prisoners were often visited by their kids and babies were included.  However, visitation took place in a large crowded room where all the visitors sat at small card-table sized tables with their individual inmate seated with them.  Multiple guards on the perimeter and surveillance cameras and such.  No inmate would ever be alone with anyone in that setting, not an adult, let alone a kid.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Notabug

[Ijustwantsomechips]

36 minutes ago, Notabug said:

According to the fed website, children under 16 can visit but must be accompanied by an adult and with the approval of the child's other parent or guardian.  The website doesn't show any restrictions base on the crime; if an inmate is cleared for visitors, it looks like there is one set of rules.

Not that this is the last word, but, on Orange is the New Black, the prisoners were often visited by their kids and babies were included.  However, visitation took place in a large crowded room where all the visitors sat at small card-table sized tables with their individual inmate seated with them.  Multiple guards on the perimeter and surveillance cameras and such.  No inmate would ever be alone with anyone in that setting, not an adult, let alone a kid.

That’s how visitation worked at the state prison I worked at years ago. No touching, no sudden movements, hands visible at all times.

[Absolom]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I wonder if Michelle has visited him in jail. Tomorrow maybe the last they'll see Josh, for what I'm guessing will be at least a month.

The Washington County jail website is still showing only remote vists.