Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Gemma Violet]

I don't see Anna going into a rage.  She (and the other cult members) have been brought up to not show negative emotions--to keep sweet all the time.  She's probably fighting internally to keep her negative emotions from bubbling to the surface.  What a sad way to live.

[Minivanessa]

9 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

I don't see Anna going into a rage.  She (and the other cult members) have been brought up to not show negative emotions--to keep sweet all the time.  She's probably fighting internally to keep her negative emotions from bubbling to the surface.  What a sad way to live.

I agree. I also think she may still be in a state of shock and denial. IMO if anger breaks through into her consciousness she will direct it outward - to evil forces/people outside the cult - at least at first. 

[sagittarius sue]

1 hour ago, cmr2014 said:

I think that they all have very little/no empathy. I don't think that they're capable of putting themselves in someone else's shoes at all

Empathy just gets in the way of feeling you're right and godly in everything you do!

[cmr2014]

53 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

I don't see Anna going into a rage.  She (and the other cult members) have been brought up to not show negative emotions--to keep sweet all the time.  She's probably fighting internally to keep her negative emotions from bubbling to the surface.  What a sad way to live.

I don't necessarily think that she's raging outwardly at anyone -- I agree that that would be almost inconceivable given her upbringing. I do think, however, that that's what she's feeling now -- a black void of rage.

 

[GeeGolly]

I agree with @Rootbeer, and certainly hope whatever the kids are told now, it is G-rated.

I also agree Anna is likely experiencing a mixed bag of emotions. This is a time when her eyes, however briefly, are involuntarily opened fully. From my experience working with folks who have experienced DV, open eyes don't always lead to the best decisions. 

Folks not in cults get stuck. Denial, finances and fear are just a few of the reasons they stay stuck, or take while to get unstuck.

I don't think Anna ever thought she hasn't protected her children (and we don't know that they were ever in harms way). Josh's crimes are complicated in the sense that Crime #1 was in his youth and he seemingly went 20 years until committing Crime #2. In the interim he messed around with legal porn. Marrying Josh was likely not the best decision, but I don't think anyone could have predicted the big picture.

 

[SMama]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree with @Rootbeer, and certainly hope whatever the kids are told now, it is G-rated.

I also agree Anna is likely experiencing a mixed bag of emotions. This is a time when her eyes, however briefly, are involuntarily opened fully. From my experience working with folks who have experienced DV, open eyes don't always lead to the best decisions. 

Folks not in cults get stuck. Denial, finances and fear are just a few of the reasons they stay stuck, or take while to get unstuck.

I don't think Anna ever thought she hasn't protected her children (and we don't know that they were ever in harms way). Josh's crimes are complicated in the sense that Crime #1 was in his youth and he seemingly went 20 years until committing Crime #2. In the interim he messed around with legal porn. Marrying Josh was likely not the best decision, but I don't think anyone could have predicted the big picture.

 

He went 20 years until caught for crime #2. Doubt he only dabbled on legal porn and extramarital affairs.

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, SMama said:

He went 20 years until caught for crime #2. Doubt he only dabbled on legal porn and extramarital affairs.

Absolutely a very great possibility he did do something else, but that doesn't mean Anna knew he did.

I was more looking at it from her perspective. I just don't see her a some evil neglectful mother, complicit in someway in Josh's crimes.

[irisheyes]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Absolutely a very great possibility he did do something else, but that doesn't mean Anna knew he did.

I was more looking at it from her perspective. I just don't see her a some evil neglectful mother, complicit in someway in Josh's crimes.

I agree. She was doing the best she knew with the Covenant Eyes. I doubt it ever crossed her mind that he created a partition and was searching the dark web when he texted her telling her he was working late. (I doubt she even knew what a partition was and how to find the dark web.). I don’t blame her for anything prior to the raid. And, even then, he probably lied to her about what the feds were after. I think choosing to have another baby with him earlier this year wasn’t the smartest move, but that’s all she knows. Watching the way she walked out of the courthouse tells me she’s angry. At whom?  Who knows. Could be a whole range of people. 
 

I also hope the M’s had a good Christmas. Hopefully, some of their Keller family was able to visit. 

[Rabbittron]

I feel for the M's when they are old enough and they find out what their dad really did I think that they will resent Mom and the Duggars for the lies that they were told.

[sara416]

4 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

I don't see Anna going into a rage.  She (and the other cult members) have been brought up to not show negative emotions--to keep sweet all the time.  She's probably fighting internally to keep her negative emotions from bubbling to the surface.  What a sad way to live.

This can only last for so long before she completely loses it. I honestly wish her a really good nervous breakdown where she can go somewhere and get the help and deprogramming that she needs. She needs to express some emotion and get some therapy. Let's take her to a Rage Room and then a fancy long term rehab. 

[crazycatlady58]

6 minutes ago, sara416 said:

This can only last for so long before she completely loses it. I honestly wish her a really good nervous breakdown where she can go somewhere and get the help and deprogramming that she needs. She needs to express some emotion and get some therapy. Let's take her to a Rage Room and then a fancy long term rehab. 

Sadly that probably will not happen. They do not believe in mental illness she would be told to pray harder.

[Absolom]

8 hours ago, dariafan said:

Do they have limited portions ?   Cause Joshy ain’t used to that 

They do.  It's you get what you get and no seconds from what I've read. 

Quite a few inmates have said it isn't enough for them to be completely full.  I expect Josh will lose some weight unless the family keeps his commissary account topped up so he can have plenty of snacks and junk food.

[ginger90]

I wonder if anyone has sent a gift pack to Josh.

[sara416]

15 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Sadly that probably will not happen. They do not believe in mental illness she would be told to pray harder.

I know, it makes me so sad. I am a therapist and would LOVE to see what would happen if she were able to get some real help. It would be a long road for an incredibly patient therapist,  but she and those kids would benefit so much from someone outside of their world to help them understand and work through these things. There are legitimate Christian counselors out there who would work with them from that perspective. There are also a lot of "Christian Counselors" out there. I would love them to find one of the former types to help them. 

[Zella]

I've actually read weight gain is more common in prison/jail than weight loss. They feed you a lot of calories for the sedentary lifestyle, and I don't see Josh being the type of person who works out in prison. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Therapy/prayer how you can identify a fundie. They believe that prayer is the answer for everything. It was clear that Jill had left the fundie ranks when she shared that she was getting therapy.

Edited December 28, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[GeeGolly]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Therapy/prayer how you can identify a fundie. They believe that prayer is the answer for everything. It was clear that Jill had left the fundie ranks when she shared that she was getting therapy.

Except we don't know that she was seeing a legit therapist. It could have been counseling from their church.

[emmawoodhouse]

The way she's talked about her therapy makes it seem like it's legit. It may well be a real therapist with a Christian slant. 

[farmgal4]

6 hours ago, SusannahM said:

I wouldn't wish what she must be going through on my worst enemy.  That said I just cannot figure her out.  Does she genuinely believe Josh is the victim here or does she simply not care what he did?  Based on her demeanour at the trial I tend to think she believed whatever crap he was telling her - but after the trial? Still buying it?  I would really like to know if she's now had her eyes opened.  I doubt it somehow.

🎶 “And although my eyes were open, they might’ve just as well been closed.” 🎶

[Jeanne222]

2 hours ago, Absolom said:

They do.  It's you get what you get and no seconds from what I've read. 

Quite a few inmates have said it isn't enough for them to be completely full.  I expect Josh will lose some weight unless the family keeps his commissary account topped up so he can have plenty of snacks and junk food.

Maybe Josh can hook up with one of those Love After Lockup dames and they can pad his account!

Yes I think he'd be considered a catch to many!  All kinds of crazies out there!

[zenme]

I’m willing to bet Anna had experienced times where she had suspected something amiss but let it go because she was afraid, OR Josh explained it away.

[GeeGolly]

10 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I wonder if anyone has sent a gift pack to Josh.

Maybe a few Redditt posters got creative and sent Josh some Unhappy Mail or some Reality Mail. 🙃

Does anyone know what kind of gifts inmates are allowed to have in their cells? I'm guessing at least books and pictures.

[ginger90]

There’s an online account to the commissary that gift packs can be sent through.

[Scarlett45]

18 hours ago, Zella said:

I've actually read weight gain is more common in prison/jail than weight loss. They feed you a lot of calories for the sedentary lifestyle, and I don't see Josh being the type of person who works out in prison. 

I’ve actually heard the opposite. That the food quality in the prison SUCKS and commissary is so expensive, it’s not enough calories to keep weight on an adult. Also there’s nothing else to do but work out. 
 

I could see Josh losing weight because he won’t have access to the type of food he wants. And I do see Michelle putting something on his commissary so he can purchase snacks and toiletries- it’s not going to be an excessive amount. 

[crazycatlady58]

16 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I’ve actually heard the opposite. That the food quality in the prison SUCKS and commissary is so expensive, it’s not enough calories to keep weight on an adult. Also there’s nothing else to do but work out. 
 

I could see Josh losing weight because he won’t have access to the type of food he wants. And I do see Michelle putting something on his commissary so he can purchase snacks and toiletries- it’s going going to be an excessive amount. 

I had a prison guard tell me the size of a meal( in Texas prison) is about the size of a lunch tray that you would get in high school. 

[farmgal4]

19 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

I expect the M kids have been blanket trained to ask no questions and to take anything they are told at face value.  Mack is 12, the age when kids do start questioning their parents' rules, but we've seen how beaten down these kids become.  I expect all of the kids know better than to ask any questions at all about Josh or his whereabouts and, whatever Anna or JB (because I'll bet they're the only ones 'authorized' to mention Josh to the kids) says will be accepted at face value or that kid will be sent straight to the prayer closet.

These fundies do like to talk about porn, not exactly what it is, but that it is a sin and I could see them telling Mack and maybe Michael that bad people put porn on Daddy's computer in order to get him falsely accused and sent to jail, but I certainly don't think they have any inkling as to what it is really happened.  I doubt most kids would understand the concept of children being sexually abused and tortured and I have no problem with Anna and/or JB sparing the kids the harsh details.

I have forgotten what the prayer closet was used for.  Was it used for children who misbehaved or is that where each child would voluntarily go when they wanted to pray?

[Zella]

31 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I’ve actually heard the opposite. That the food quality in the prison SUCKS and commissary is so expensive, it’s not enough calories to keep weight on an adult. Also there’s nothing else to do but work out. 
 

I could see Josh losing weight because he won’t have access to the type of food he wants. And I do see Michelle putting something on his commissary so he can purchase snacks and toiletries- it’s going going to be an excessive amount. 

But you just have to look at the food plans released by the prison system to see that's simply not true about the calories. They're routinely served 2,500 to 3,000 calories per day. No doubt the food isn't great, but that's far too high for a sedentary lifestyle. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

But you just have to look at the food plans released by the prison system to see that's simply not true about the calories. They're routinely served 2,500 to 3,000 calories per day. No doubt the food isn't great, but that's far too high for a sedentary lifestyle. 

Yeah I understand what you are saying, but if the food is nasty, I am not going to eat it, especially if I don't need the calories because I am just sitting around. Boredom eating isn't appealing if the food isn't setting off my pleasure centers.

But who am I kidding? Josh did not gain weight eating well prepared highly delicious meals (there are a lot of ways to end up in a calorie surplus). So you may be onto something. But I do see Michelle making sure he has money on his commissary account so that he is as comfortable as possible. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah I understand what you are saying, but if the food is nasty, I am not going to eat it, especially if I don't need the calories because I am just sitting around. Boredom eating isn't appealing if the food isn't setting off my pleasure centers.

But who am I kidding? Josh did not gain weight eating well prepared highly delicious meals (there are a lot of ways to end up in a calorie surplus). So you may be onto something. But I do see Michelle making sure he has money on his commissary account so that he is as comfortable as possible. 

I think some prisoners may not eat if it's nasty, but most of them are not going to have the luxury of being picky if it is nasty. They're still going to choke it down. Interestingly I've read the weight gain issue is even more of a problem for female inmates because they receive the same calorie allotment as the men do. 

I would love to know if he gets commissary from his parents. My guess would be yes, but I can see him blowing it all on junk food. 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

When I worked at the women’s prison, the food in the cafeteria was delicious. Remember, there’s no shortage of talent in the prison, so we had cooks and chefs of all caliber.  The men’s prison next door was always mediocre, but the inmate run cafe had good hot wings. You just never know. 

Chances are Smuggar will lose weight though. Meals are at set times, you only have the snacks you can afford to buy (and hopefully no one takes them), and the food choices are limited.

[GeeGolly]

Are inmates allowed to have an abundance of snacks in their cells? I wouldn't think they'd be allowed to keep excess food in their cells due insects and rodents.

[DXD526]

I saw a program a while back about going inside a local prison, and it showed a typical meal, and UGH. Horrible. It gave me the creeps just looking at it. It barely resembled food. I know Smuggs deserves to be where he is, I wouldn't be here overdosing on schadenfreude if I didn't! But damn, I can't imagine the adjustments he's been having to make since being convicted. For someone who's used to being treated special, it's got to be quite a shock. 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

Are inmates allowed to have an abundance of snacks in their cells? I wouldn't think they'd be allowed to keep excess food in their cells due insects and rodents.

Granted the women’s prison was run like a daycare, but yes they can have things like snack cakes, ramen noodles, etc.  That prison looked like old college dorms and it was remarkably clean because our warden was OCD. The inmates had to pull the weeds from the sidewalk cracks by hand and the grass had to be cut on a 45 degree angle. 

Smuggar could really benefit from that type of structure.

[GeeGolly]

27 minutes ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

Granted the women’s prison was run like a daycare, but yes they can have things like snack cakes, ramen noodles, etc.  That prison looked like old college dorms and it was remarkably clean because our warden was OCD. The inmates had to pull the weeds from the sidewalk cracks by hand and the grass had to be cut on a 45 degree angle. 

Smuggar could really benefit from that type of structure.

Ahhh, ramen noodles. Some of the guys I worked with who were former inmates used to tell me how they make ramen with cold water held over the heating vents. They would steal all kinds of things from the commissary, like salsa packets, cheese stick, soup crackers, etc and mix it all together. A few of them made me some for lunch on occasion. I called it Jail Junk. It was actually good, lol.

[woodscommaelle]

Might be a REALLY dumb question, but I'm asking because I don't know.  Is there any chance being in jail is a relief for Josh? I mean, he doesn't have to live 'that' life anymore. No more dealing with seven kids and a wife. No more dealing with parents and his siblings and their kids. I could be way off base, but what does he have to do but literally lay in a cell all day long, and eat and shower when told?  Is this is any way a 'break' for him?

 

 

 

[ginger90]

Right now Josh is in a county  jail, soon to be in a federal prison, I hope.  The food will get better, but the situation won’t.

2 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

Might be a REALLY dumb question, but I'm asking because I don't know.  Is there any chance being in jail is a relief for Josh? I mean, he doesn't have to live 'that' life anymore. No more dealing with seven kids and a wife. No more dealing with parents and his siblings and their kids. I could be way off base, but what does he have to do but literally lay in a cell all day long, and eat and shower when told?  Is this is any way a 'break' for him?

 

 

 

The first few days, perhaps. Solitary is not easy.

[Tikichick]

19 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

I don't see Anna going into a rage.  She (and the other cult members) have been brought up to not show negative emotions--to keep sweet all the time.  She's probably fighting internally to keep her negative emotions from bubbling to the surface.  What a sad way to live.

People often feel rage without flying off the handle and attacking others.   Rage is a stage of grief and it's to be expected she's been experiencing something like a death, particularly since he was convicted and it's clear they won't be resuming their normal married life anytime soon.  

It is sad (and harmful) if she's fighting letting her feelings out.   Not to say that she should merely stomp around and blast anyone in her sight, but she should have a safe outlet to let things out and a (non judgmental) sounding board if she needs it.   It's also in the best interest of her children if her emotional needs are legitimately addressed.    They cannot rely on dad, probably never have been able to.   It would be nice if mom could be as healthily functional as possible.     

 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, woodscommaelle said:

Might be a REALLY dumb question, but I'm asking because I don't know.  Is there any chance being in jail is a relief for Josh? I mean, he doesn't have to live 'that' life anymore. No more dealing with seven kids and a wife. No more dealing with parents and his siblings and their kids. I could be way off base, but what does he have to do but literally lay in a cell all day long, and eat and shower when told?  Is this is any way a 'break' for him?

I would say jail is absolute torture for Josh.

I know some guys who didn't hate it, but they didn't have any of the creature comforts Josh had. For some the 3 hots and a cot were better than free life.

I bet Josh cries himself to sleep every night.

[Tikichick]

6 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

Might be a REALLY dumb question, but I'm asking because I don't know.  Is there any chance being in jail is a relief for Josh? I mean, he doesn't have to live 'that' life anymore. No more dealing with seven kids and a wife. No more dealing with parents and his siblings and their kids. I could be way off base, but what does he have to do but literally lay in a cell all day long, and eat and shower when told?  Is this is any way a 'break' for him?

 

 

 

IMO Josh's predatory nature will chafe horribly in a system where he has virtually zero control of anything about his life.   Predators thrive on manipulation, control and deceit of anyone and anything they can possibly bend to their will.   It's very difficult to nurture those needs in a system where almost everything is under control of others and there is no shortage of others supremely skilled in manipulation and deceit around every corner.   

[Jeanne222]

I hope Josh didn’t leave Anna pregnant again!

[FizzyPuff]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I hope Josh didn’t leave Anna pregnant again!

Gosh she just had a baby! I hope Anna let’s her vagina heal. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I hope Josh didn’t leave Anna pregnant again!

I highly doubt it.  Anna isn't going to give up following Gothard's rules which stipulate waiting 80 days after the birth of a daughter.  Josh was remanded into custody after less than 60 days from the birth of Madyson.  As far as I can tell, that rule supersedes being "joyfully available" at the drop of a hat.

[dariafan]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Maybe a few Redditt posters got creative and sent Josh some Unhappy Mail or some Reality Mail. 🙃

Does anyone know what kind of gifts inmates are allowed to have in their cells? I'm guessing at least books and pictures.

Depends on the state. Some states only allow 2 books a month to be sent and they have to come from a big box place   Which that alone is a reason to keep me out of prison.     Anyone else think prison reform is gonna become mecheeles new project ?

[cmr2014]

Josh grew up eating cold green beans out of a can, and tater tot casserole on special occasions -- he should do fine on prison food. I'm sure Anna cooked for the family, but Josh didn't become fat eating nutritionally balanced meals. I'm sure he's been gorging on snack foods since he left the TTH, and that will probably continue in prison.

[Scarlett45]

19 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

IMO Josh's predatory nature will chafe horribly in a system where he has virtually zero control of anything about his life.   Predators thrive on manipulation, control and deceit of anyone and anything they can possibly bend to their will.   It's very difficult to nurture those needs in a system where almost everything is under control of others and there is no shortage of others supremely skilled in manipulation and deceit around every corner.   

I agree. Josh will not be happy in prison. Under JB's thumb he may have hated his life, but he had hot food, hot water for showers, tech toys, internet, status as "the golden child". Jesus Jail in 2015/16 was no picnic but actual federal prison is going to be much more unpleasant for him.

[crazycatlady58]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

But you just have to look at the food plans released by the prison system to see that's simply not true about the calories. They're routinely served 2,500 to 3,000 calories per day. No doubt the food isn't great, but that's far too high for a sedentary lifestyle. 

I checked with Dr. Google and 2500 calories per day is average for an adult male.

[Zella]

Just now, crazycatlady58 said:

I checked with Dr. Google and 2500 calories per day is average for an adult male.

But that's assuming a much less sedentary lifestyle than your average prisoner. 

[crazycatlady58]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

But that's assuming a much less sedentary lifestyle than your average prisoner. 

I guess, I did not check further to see if that was recommended for active or sedentary men. I try for 1300 to lose weight but I am an old lady. I know men burn calories different so to me much lower than 2500 seems low but I honestly know  very little about calorie needs for men. If it were me I would over feed because it seems like they would have less energy to cause trouble. 

[Nysha]

On 12/27/2021 at 7:39 AM, merylinkid said:

Hey everyone, I am sorry if I triggered anyone with how I was referring to Josh.   I just wanted to use the term often because of how his family tried to sweep it under the rug and act like its no big deal.   Now they can't do that and I wanted to remind everyone of that fact.   But I don't want to upset anyone on this board either (the Duggars can be upset all they want).  I won't do it again.  

It's okay. There are a lot of us who refuse to call the convicted felon by name. I've been doing it since he got arrested and this is the first time anyone complained.

[Nysha]

47 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

People often feel rage without flying off the handle and attacking others.   Rage is a stage of grief and it's to be expected she's been experiencing something like a death, particularly since he was convicted and it's clear they won't be resuming their normal married life anytime soon.  

My worry about her emotional state is that I'm pretty sure she physically punishes her children. That and strong unexpressed emotions can lead to excessive punishment.