Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Cinnabon]

12 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I’ve also been wondering if Michelle actually understood all along how awful Josh’s actions were. But because of their disgusting Gothardian beliefs, she felt she could never confront or contradict what JB wanted in dealing with the aftermath. All she’s allowed to do in that situation is pray for God to change hubby’s heart. I am imagining her screaming I KNEW IT!  To me, this is the only scenario that explains her not showing up at all during the trial. What mother wouldn’t? JB may have recognized that she could not or would not have been able to maintain in the courtroom setting. 

Wasn’t Michelle always Josh’s supporter, more than JB? I don’t buy that she ever wanted to do anything differently than they did. And I think she was a coward for staying home and not going to court and hearing about exactly what he was watching. And beyond that, to simply show support for her son. 

10 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

Frankly, given Josh’s conviction and Jana’s child endangerment case, it wouldn’t surprise me if Arkansas CPS is already getting some side eye about the deference with which they have treated this family. The family has been allowed to dictate the terms of their engagement with the system, and I think that at least i

This. They appear to have been able to dictate their own terms and refuse to even meet with CPS. Most parents don’t get that choice. It’s disgusting and unfair.

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I am trying to find that forum. Do you have the link? Yes, I grew up reading the entire series! 

Here it is: https://forums.primetimer.com/forum/937-specials-tv-movies-other-one-offs/

I also read all the books during middle school!

[madpsych78]

Michelle's feelings about all this are a big mystery, although I do think it's plausible her feelings are different from Boob's feelings.

[Scarlett45]

20 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I’ve also been wondering if Michelle actually understood all along how awful Josh’s actions were. But because of their disgusting Gothardian beliefs, she felt she could never confront or contradict what JB wanted in dealing with the aftermath. All she’s allowed to do in that situation is pray for God to change hubby’s heart. I am imagining her screaming I KNEW IT!  To me, this is the only scenario that explains her not showing up at all during the trial. What mother wouldn’t? JB may have recognized that she could not or would not have been able to maintain in the courtroom setting. 

I could be wrong, but I think it’s more that Michelle actually has maternal affection for Josh, while also believing he is guilty and would fall apart in the courtroom because her entire world view has been shattered and she is embarrassed. 

[ginger90]

10 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

This. They appear to have been able to dictate their own terms and refuse to even meet with CPS. Most parents don’t get that choice. It’s disgusting and unfair.

If there is no court order, and a child or children aren’t considered in immediate danger at that moment, they aren’t getting anything that isn’t following law.

If CPS didn’t come back with a court order in the past, one would hope it was because it wasn’t deemed necessary.

On the other hand, perhaps they did get an order, and we don’t now about it yet, as with many other things.

[Heathen]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I could be wrong, but I think it’s more that Michelle actually has maternal affection for Josh, while also believing he is guilty and would fall apart in the courtroom because her entire world view has been shattered and she is embarrassed. 

I agree except that I don't think Mullet thought Josh was guilty. Denial is a powerful force. I'm sure she and Jim Bob are coming to that realization now, or did right after the verdict, but not before. Embarrassed and humiliated, absolutely. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Heathen

[Jynnan tonnix]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

One of the reasons I think the "Anna is being investigated for child abandonment" narrative is false (beyond what being described not sounding like child abandonment in the legal sense) is that I really cannot figure out how her spending the night with the kids is a technical violation of the terms of his bond. Would it be in poor judgment? Yes. But the terms of the bond were unlimited time with his own kids, as long as Anna was present. I don't see how them all spending the night would constitute a violation of those terms. 

I would think a case could be made that Anna being "present" would mean that she was able to actively supervise what was going on. If she was spending the night, and presumably sleeping, that's not exactly being present.

If Jana falling asleep while babysitting can be viewed as child endangerment, I'd imagine  the same could hold true for Anna.

[emmawoodhouse]

4 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Same. CPS involvement rarely means the kids will be taken away. They  offer supportive services.

Don't forget that Smuggar's conviction triggers an automatic CPS check on his kids. Anna can't turn them away this time.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, salvame said:

So, today, news that Jana has been charged with endangering the welfare of a child?Nodetails, though. 

Random thought - this whole Joshie thing reminds me of "Flowers in the Attic" - I wonder if a large part of the problem stems from the forced denial of any sexual feelings or education. Any folks with a psychology background care to weigh in here?

Without doing a proper comprehensive assessment, I'm guessing Josh has Antisocial Personality Disorder. Josh's preoccupation with sex (to put it mildly) is a trait of his APD. Not all with APD are preoccupied with sex, so yes, I think their family environment, with a significant emphasis on sex and masturbation, contributed to it.

[Westiepeach]

2 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

I could see JB sending Anna and the kids to Florida with her family.  I'm thinking both Michelle and Jana might be at their breaking point with a new round of kids to raise plus CPS poking around in maybe the whole families business.

Was Josh free roaming the homestead while the Duggers vacationed with the Bates and attended out of state weddings and parties.

Can you imagine having a sex offender at all family gatherings knowing what he did to his young sisters and that he was being investigated for child pornography!I

I remember Anna in Washington and what a good wife and mother she was.  I hope she's not already pregnant again!

I doubt Michelle is at any breaking point with a new round of kids. Jana, maybe… but certainly not Michelle. She never raised her own children so why should she care about 7 grandchildren in the mix? She is certainly not going to have any interest in them. All she cares about is her Starbucks.

[Cinnabon]

8 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Without doing a proper comprehensive assessment, I'm guessing Josh has Antisocial Personality Disorder. Josh's preoccupation with sex (to put it mildly) is a trait of his APD. Not all with APD are preoccupied with sex, so yes, I think their family environment, with a significant emphasis on sex and masturbation, contributed to it.

I would add having virtually no female peers his age around as he entered puberty (except his own sisters 😥). I don’t know if he would still have abused them if he were allowed to attend regular school, but it might have changed things. 

2 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

I doubt Michelle is at any breaking point with a new round of kids. Jana, maybe… but certainly not Michelle. She never raised her own children so why should she care about 7 grandchildren in the mix? She is certainly not going to have any interest in them. All she cares about is her Starbucks.

Also, she and Boob were in a fucking parade just a couple days before Josh’s trial started. She wasn’t at home taking Xanax.

[GeeGolly]

Up until Josh's house arrest I got the impression, from posts and pictures, that Anna had kind of become the quasi matriarch of the TTH. So I think it was a win-win kind of situation. Anna pitched in corralling the kids and helping with homeschooling. She seemed to also pitch in with birthdays and other celebrations. Which has me assuming that she had help with her kids too - by having them occupied with playmate cousins/aunts, maybe having Hannah and Jenny helping with the babies here and there, etc. 

[Minivanessa]

59 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Up until Josh's house arrest I got the impression, from posts and pictures, that Anna had kind of become the quasi matriarch of the TTH. So I think it was a win-win kind of situation. Anna pitched in corralling the kids and helping with homeschooling. She seemed to also pitch in with birthdays and other celebrations. Which has me assuming that she had help with her kids too - by having them occupied with playmate cousins/aunts, maybe having Hannah and Jenny helping with the babies here and there, etc. 

I had that general idea too. It seemed that the Ms and the younger J kids were together a lot which isn't surprising since there's some overlap in ages. I always thought that in their SM photos, Anna's kids usually looked better dressed and better groomed than their young aunts and uncles. I think Anna brings a lot of energy to being a mother, certainly more than Meech does.

When I said upthread that Anna has help with her kids from the J kids, I didn't mean to imply that she sat around on her butt all day sipping Starbucks. I do think that she's used to a daily routine in which she's not all alone taking care of six kids and a newborn, but has family with some helping hands for some of the tasks, if only to keep some of the kids occupied for awhile so she can take care of the house etc. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jeeves

[mynextmistake]

2 hours ago, ginger90 said:

If there is no court order, and a child or children aren’t considered in immediate danger at that moment, they aren’t getting anything that isn’t following law.

If CPS didn’t come back with a court order in the past, one would hope it was because it wasn’t deemed necessary.

On the other hand, perhaps they did get an order, and we don’t now about it yet, as with many other things.

True, but I’ve had some involvement with CPS cases in a previous job, and I have a very hard time believing that a judge would not have granted a court order to interview the minor children of a man who was accused of possession of CSAM and who had a documented history of sexually abusing minor children. We aren’t talking about CPS trying to get a court order to assume custody of the Ms, which I agree would have not been legally warranted with the facts they had at the time. We’re just talking about a court order for an interview, which is a pretty low-stakes intervention. I don’t see a judge turning that down. 

So if the kids weren’t interviewed, it would have to be either because CPS didn’t apply for a warrant or because they didn’t file for enforcement of one they had obtained. Those would be discretionary decisions on the part of the agency. *If* those decisions were made, I do think they showed an unfair amount of deference to the Duggar family. If you take JB’s money and connections out of the equation, Anna is a poorly-educated, low-income mother of 7 with a husband who is accused of sex crimes. In my experience, in cases like that CPS wouldn’t have to think about this for thirty seconds — they’d get that court order and compel interviews of the children. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by mynextmistake

[debbie311]

I think the fact that Anna is so supportive of Josh would be a huge red flag for CPS. She either believes he is not guilty, or she doesn't care if he is. Which would be her business if it were just about her.  Unfortunately there are seven children who need protection.

Those poor kids need to have access to therapy, someone who knows what it's like to have a father sent to prison for child pornography and help them navigate their feelings.  They are no doubt wondering where he is. They have a hard life ahead of them

[SusanM]

1 hour ago, debbie311 said:

I think the fact that Anna is so supportive of Josh would be a huge red flag for CPS. She either believes he is not guilty, or she doesn't care if he is.

Given her Oscar winning performance in the category of Loving and Supportive Wife I hope to god she genuinely believes he's not guilty however I think, frankly, that she knows damn well he did it and as I bolded in your quote she doesn't care.  Which would be bad enough for almost any crime but is downright horrifying given what he has been convicted of and that she is the mother of 7 children.  CPS really, really needs to step in in whatever capacity it is possible for them to do so.

Edited December 12, 2021 by SusannahM

[sue450]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:17 PM, 3girlsforus said:

Is this sarcasm or was she really charged with falling asleep while babysitting? 

not sure  but someone said she fell asleep and the kids were outside the  compound on the road, someone came along  found them  and called authorities,,,,it will come out eventually UPDATE  read somewhere that this did not happen at the duggar compound but another residence.....

Edited December 14, 2021 by sue450

[mittsigirl]

It's nice to see that a reputable newspaper has the story in it-

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/us/josh-duggar-guilty.html

[mittsigirl]

One last question then it's time to shut this off for the night!

I read on Duggar Data-thanks to the person on here that told us about this site-that Josh will probably be spending his time in solitary confinement. How true is this? So probably 23 hours in and 1 hour out? Got my law degree from Law and Order and John Grisham novels, so would like an answer from a real law person. TIA. 

[Zella]

Just now, mittsigirl said:

One last question then it's time to shut this off for the night!

I read on Duggar Data-thanks to the person on here that told us about this site-that Josh will probably be spending his time in solitary confinement. How true is this? So probably 23 hours in and 1 hour out? Got my law degree from Law and Order and John Grisham novels, so would like an answer from a real law person. TIA. 

Not a lawyer but it is true he is being held in solitary confinement. It's standard operating procedure at the jail because they don't have separate facilities for sex offenders. I don't know what his schedule is like, though. From what I understand, what facility he is sent to will really dictate whether or not this continues once he gets to a federal institution after sentencing. If he's not in a prison with a sex offender program, he may very well be required to be in protective custody for his own safety. 

[mittsigirl]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

Not a lawyer but it is true he is being held in solitary confinement. It's standard operating procedure at the jail because they don't have separate facilities for sex offenders. I don't know what his schedule is like, though. From what I understand, what facility he is sent to will really dictate whether or not this continues once he gets to a federal institution after sentencing. If he's not in a prison with a sex offender program, he may very well be required to be in protective custody for his own safety. 

Thank-you Zella. You may not be a lawyer, but your posts show me that you really know a lot of legal stuff:)

[Zella]

Just now, mittsigirl said:

Thank-you Zella. You may not be a lawyer, but your posts show me that you really know a lot of legal stuff:)

Thank you, though I must admit it is largely courtesy of The Good Wife, Columbo, and true crime obsession. LOL 

I was going to link you to some articles on the jail, but the only links I could find were from tabloids and both of the articles I found featured more description about what Josh was watching or some of the horrible shit that's gone down at the local jail than I felt comfortable posting. 

[emmawoodhouse]

16 minutes ago, Zella said:

Not a lawyer but it is true he is being held in solitary confinement. It's standard operating procedure at the jail because they don't have separate facilities for sex offenders. I don't know what his schedule is like, though. From what I understand, what facility he is sent to will really dictate whether or not this continues once he gets to a federal institution after sentencing. If he's not in a prison with a sex offender program, he may very well be required to be in protective custody for his own safety. 

I thought he had to be sent to a prison with a SO program. Or am I hallucinating? 😁

[emmawoodhouse]

So he CAN be sent to s facility without the SO program, and he's at higher risk of attack. I wonder how the judge will treat this, being a first offense, but with the molestation history? 

I hope we can revisit this article when he's sentenced to confirm if he got sent to a "good" prison.

[Zella]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

So he CAN be sent to s facility without the SO program, and he's at higher risk of attack. I wonder how the judge will treat this, being a first offense, but with the molestation history? 

I hope we can revisit this article when he's sentenced to confirm if he got sent to a "good" prison.

My understanding is the judge doesn't really have a say in where he is sent. I believe he may be able to lodge a recommendation, but I don't think the Bureau of Prisons has to follow it. It will definitely be interesting to see where he lands! 

[emmawoodhouse]

Why did I think the judge called the prison shots? Oh well, I hope we find out where he lands. They may keep that info under wraps. Follow the plane tracker! 😁

[SusanM]

9 minutes ago, Zella said:

My understanding is the judge doesn't really have a say in where he is sent. I believe he may be able to lodge a recommendation, but I don't think the Bureau of Prisons has to follow it. It will definitely be interesting to see where he lands! 

This thread has moved so fast but I am pretty sure someone upthread commented that the issue isn't that the Bureau of Prisons wants to have the final say it's more that it's all about finding a prison that actually can accommodate him - especially if they want him in a sex offender unit.  Sadly, these units are over subscribed.

[lascuba]

16 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

So he CAN be sent to s facility without the SO program, and he's at higher risk of attack. I wonder how the judge will treat this, being a first offense, but with the molestation history? 

I hope we can revisit this article when he's sentenced to confirm if he got sent to a "good" prison.

One of the many articles I've read stated that they typically want convicts to start an SO program closer to their release dates, so depending on how long his sentence, Josh may start out in one prison and then be transferred around 2 years before his release. 

[SometimesBites]

On 12/9/2021 at 9:01 AM, Tuxcat said:

Anna was "completely stoic," according to the Sun reporter.

 

I wonder if she's honestly just relieved maybe. I know she believes he's innocent but in her heart she's just got to know.

I have a hunch she's been stoically medicated for the entire trial. If you can't stay sweet, stay numb.

[TigerLily20]

Do we know where the Federal Prisons are?  I live in MD and we have (I believe) a maximum security prison within 2 hours of me and some smaller ones less than an hour, just wondering if there is a chance he comes this way, not that I want him to but we never get Duggar sightings up this way (when he worked in DC I am too far away for those sightings)

[emmawoodhouse]

List of federal prisons.

[andromeda331]

I'm glad he was found guilty.

[beckie]

Can't find the post to quote it, but regarding Anna supposedly badgering Josh about their whole family staying with him at the Rebers and him disagreeing, wouldn't that have been up to the Rebers anyway? They only signed on for the pest, not the pest, Anna AND six plus kids.

 

[LavendarRose]

I have been reading all the speculation about where Anna and the  MKids will be living.  I don’t think they will be going anywhere.  JimBob has spent a lot of money on Josh and I think he will be wanting some kind of return on that “investment”.  I reckon he will keep Anna and the kids close by, under his “Umbrella of Protection” and remind her daily do what he has done for her and her husband and her kids.  And what she owes him because she wasn’t wifely enough and couldn’t keep Josh from sinning.  

It will be toxic as hell, and JB will frame it as looking after Josh’s family  and keeping them away from the Media and those unGodly wrong Christians who are judgemental.  But we have all seen examples of how petty and nasty JB is and he will be not letting them out of his sight. Enough will be done to keep CPS and whoever else comes around to keep them from interfering in his business, and the family is his business.

Anna is going nowhere, but I foresee her situation as being as much of a prison as the one Josh will end up in.  And she will never actually realise it.

 

[Rabbittron]

At least she has her honeymoon pillow with Smuggars photo on it. 

[Jeanne222]

I don't think Anna, JimBob or Michelle will ever give into the truth that Josh is guilty.

If they ever did that they would have to do things they are not prepared or want to do.

They live and breath in the state of denial.  Nobody's moving!

I'm pretty sure this is where the siblings are stuck with "Why can't they see the truth"!

[Rabbittron]

13 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I don't think Anna, JimBob or Michelle will ever give into the truth that Josh is guilty.

If they ever did that they would have to do things they are not prepared or want to do.

They live and breath in the state of denial.  Nobody's moving!

I'm pretty sure this is where the siblings are stuck with "Why can't they see the truth"!

Because of the fact that only true believers who are the correct Christian can see truth. 

[charmed1]

37 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

At least she has her honeymoon pillow with Smuggars photo on it. 

Don’t forget the denim “Joshy Girl” pocketbook to complete the total OfSmuggar look.

[ginger90]

6 minutes ago, charmed1 said:

Don’t forget the denim “Joshy Girl” pocketbook to complete the total OfSmuggar look.

I either blocked this out, or I truly don’t remember. So, I looked for a picture.

🤦‍♀️

[Chicklet]

She really was mentally 12 when they started "courting". Jeez.

[crazy8s]

 The Joshy Girl pic is one of the reasons i like it here. so many snarkers that remember so many various weird, random or horrible things the duggs and their ilk have done and also have the pics to back it up.

[Westiepeach]

19 hours ago, SometimesBites said:

I have a hunch she's been stoically medicated for the entire trial. If you can't stay sweet, stay numb.

Nah. I think she is just so drunk from the kool-aid that she is all about standing by her husband NO MATTER WHAT. The kids are nothing to her right now… it’s all about her headship.

[emmawoodhouse]

1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

I either blocked this out, or I truly don’t remember. So, I looked for a picture.

🤦‍♀️

I was *this* close to posting this on the day of the verdict. But I held off because the thread was moving so fast that it would have lost its oomph. 

I did post NSync's bye bye bye for JoshyBoy. 😁

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

I don't think Anna, JimBob or Michelle will ever give into the truth that Josh is guilty.

If they ever did that they would have to do things they are not prepared or want to do.

They live and breath in the state of denial.  Nobody's moving!

I'm pretty sure this is where the siblings are stuck with "Why can't they see the truth"!

But do the siblings see JB and M’s part in it all? 

3 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I either blocked this out, or I truly don’t remember. So, I looked for a picture.

🤦‍♀️

OMG this was a real thing? 

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

But do the siblings see JB and M’s part in it all? 

Jill gets it. Derick even wrote in their statement that they were lied to. Jinger may get it, if Jer has explained it to her. Joy may just be waking up. The rest? Doubtful.

[Rabbittron]

4 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I either blocked this out, or I truly don’t remember. So, I looked for a picture.

🤦‍♀️

Boy she has a really nice wallet a plastic baggie.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Rabbittron

[mittsigirl]

5 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I either blocked this out, or I truly don’t remember. So, I looked for a picture.

🤦‍♀️

I sure wouldn't be announcing I was Joshy's girl! Seriously, there is no hope for this woman-ever.

[Dimi1]

2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Jill gets it. Derick even wrote in their statement that they were lied to. Jinger may get it, if Jer has explained it to her. Joy may just be waking up. The rest? Doubtful.

joy gets it...she just posted a statement on IG,,,

[Absolom]

[SMama]

JB is going to have a difficult time getting the pedophile’s victims to defend him this time. Good for Joy and Austin. How terrible to find out the way they did. How did JB managed to control the narrative with something so public? No prayers for the pedophile.