Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Rhondinella]

We're very happy for all you non-Facebook-having people.  Feel free to go have the inaugural meeting of your club over in the Small Talk thread.  But not here.  Thank you.

[NikSac]

Interesting, they just had a Duggar story on Access Hollywood and the editor from In Touch (Alexander Hitchen) said "it's possible that this could have been conducted on over 20 occasions."  (referring to the forcible fondling)  He didn't say where the 20 occasions came from, though.  Access said they'll have more about it tomorrow.

 

Edited to add link: http://www.accesshollywood.com/inside-the-duggar-scandal-what-comes-next_video_2804537?utm_source=access&utm_medium=insite&utm_campaign=hero(the 20 occasions comment is at about the :30 mark)

Edited May 27, 2015 by NikSac

[Sunflowers]

Hi,

 

Ironically I discovered this thread just before all the scandal. I was fascinated to discover all the many details, and I'm glad I had a chance to read ALL OF THAT (A lot of reading), before the scandal. And that's been a full time job. This fascinates me because I see so many different things, with regard to the scandal many people are speculating that it was the isolation, or the hyper emphasis of the girls being covered, the homeschooling, the parents life style. And I'm not really seeing this at all.

 

I am profoundly deaf, and most deaf children have very limited ways of expressing these incredibly horrible things, often they're taken for granted by the deaf child as what is the perceptual experience of that child. Nowdays, deaf children have a completely different experience. But back then, things were different. Someone mentioned a book incident. Yeah, btdt. As a deaf child, I was molested countless times, beaten by teachers, brownie leaders, and always beaten and molested. Though I had the vocabulary to tell, I never did. I was so grateful to be loved by family, I was TERRIFIED that if they learned how the rest of the world treated me, they might see me with new eyes, and realize that I was this awful person, that soooooo clearly the rest of the world, and myself, saw me. I could never in a million years risked losing the love of all I had.

 

I'm PROUD of the Duggar girls for telling. I'm proud that perhaps they might see the TV show to a new life. That's empowerment. Whatever abuse occurred, these girls felt safe and loved enough to go to the parents. Was everything handled perfectly. No. But they did take some steps to rectify in a way that felt safe to them. I don't agree with the things on the show, (j slaves, gay bashing, and the hypersexualization of females. ...you know the stuff we talked about before all this. ) But bottom line, those girls were empowered and safe enough to tell! That's AWESOME. Those girls are far more savvy than they ate given credit for. ....They might just WANT tyne darn show, because it's a way to a better life.

 

As soon as they got married, they started dressing sexier, they are extremely comfortable with the female side of themselves, they do midwifery,which in its own way, empowers them again, to not fear their bodies. Yes, they often say things that are ignorant to us, but my goodness, they have only been put off the house a year. Already they are savvy. I don't think that we can presume what they think, feel, or , or how they dealt with it. Spirituality in ALL forms, to the believer (and I mean all forms, wiccan, Christianity, Buddha. ..whatever), I'd they believe their God helps them, loves them, and allowed them to move on then more power to them. I think they are freaking fabulous. Did the parents drop the ball, yeah, but you can see that they clearly tried to honor ALL the kids, including not demonizing their young son as a monster for life (which is what happens when sometimes [snip]. They were reeling from a LOT, trying to make big choices, quickly. In hindsight, yeah, it was probably more than a teen age f up, but they couldn't know yet). We cam get mad about hypocrisy, okay. But the bottom line is the girls were empowered to tell. And that a miracle. The boy was held accountable in their weird way, and that's a miracle too. These girls, I cry with admiration for their empowerment, savviness, and dignity. Let's not tear that down.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Rhondinella
added paragraph breaks; please do so in future

[Chai]

The entire premise of the show was that we followed the lives of 19 kids.  Taking Josh, and by extension Anna and the Ms out of the equation, somewhat defeats the purpose of the show.  

If they do go ahead, they will need a new name.  I'm going to throw in "1 molester who we don't talk about, 4 victims and 14 others".  For short it could just be "1+4+14" but maths isn't really a strong point for Boob and J'Chelle so maybe not. Any other suggestions?  

 

In all seriousness, I don't ever want to see Boob, J'Chelle or Josh on TV ever again.  I don't want to see them explaining their logic for not dealing with a serious crime.  I don't want to see Josh talking about how he repented.  I don't even want to see the girls talking about how they forgave him.  I want Boob and J'Chelle to step away from the cameras and do some serious soul-searching and consider how they can begin to make things right.  Starting with not allowing Josh to return to the TTH, insisting he get proper treatment and ensuring that the girls get whatever treatment or counselling they need, regardless of the cost.  

In short, I want a miracle.  

Me either! I said everything about it on the Michelle and JB thread. I agree with you, and I bet a lot more do, too. I no longer want to have anything to do with them.

[NextIteration]

When I was eleven, I stayed the night at a so-called "friend's" house. I woke up in the middle of the night to both her and her 15-year-old sister molesting me. While I can look back on it now and say those girls were likely abused, because how else would an eleven-year-old know to do that, it doesn't stop me from hating the both of them, and their parents who tried to sweep it under the rug. I was just as violated then as I was when I was molested in my sleep by my brother's best friend right before my 13th birthday (he was 16), when I was raped by a fifteen-year-old at a high school party, and when I was repeatedly bullied and sexually assaulted by one of my peers between the 9th and 11th grade. All of them fucking sucked. All of them gave me nightmares, and PTSD that I have to deal with to this very day, as a 28-year-old. I used to think I had some kind of signal I emitted that said "easy to abuse". All of these people were under 18, none faced any consequences for what they did to me. The cops deemed the first incident "sexual exploration" even though it was done to me in my fucking sleep and refused to do anything about it. And that's when I learned that the cops don't care and won't do anything to help, so I didn't even report after that, because why bother?

 

Massive hugs.  And yes, it took years for me to remove the "easy victim" tattoo that was on my forehead.  I'm not sure why it is that some of us just put it in the air so that it occurs again and again.  I'm small in stature as well, if that means anything.  I'm glad that you are getting help. ♥

 

Not sure if this has been posted yet:

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/three-advertisers-drop-tlcs-19-kids-counting-195351441--finance.html

 

Weee!  Excellent news!!!

 

I have to get this off my chest. I am not sure who will agree with me, but I'm going to say it anyway (and maybe blog about it because this is the 21st century and I CAN). Firstly, the whole thing is reprehensible, but what I am really upset by is the number of uber liberals who are pretty much happy this is happening. And this is coming from me, who is an uber liberal.

 

Some of my friends are offended by their religion in general, so they are pretty much excited that they are getting the boot and posting gleefully about how they get what they deserve and how they don't understand how I ever watched the show (as a woman, they asked, how could I watch a family that devalues women?) and that they are sooo happy that these "bigots" get their comeuppance. I get that people are upset about their rallying against gay rights, but they are an incredibly right-wing Christian family. Did they think they were going to somehow suddenly support gay rights? People have also been "offended" all over my newsfeed about some of the dumb things Jessa has said (i.e. athiests don't exist, etc.)...but WHAT DO THEY THINK she is going to say?!

 

I feel most sorry for the girls, because they cannot hide their name redactions. The rest of the kids also have had the rug pulled out from under them as the gravy trian has suddenly (or most probably) stopped...and I can't imagine the guilt the girls must feel (hopefully they don't, but growing up in that environment, it is up in the air). They've lost a lot in a matter of days and been publicly outed as victims when they may not have wanted to be. And people are celebrating this because they are right wing Christians and they've always "found them creepy"?!  One of my friends wrote, "I feel positively gleeful that this family and their nasty patriarchal religion are being shown the door" and "I'm starting to wonder if you really understand how vile and hurtful their beliefs are, or if you still think they're just a cute, wacky tv family."

 

Some of my family is Amish, which very easily allows for abuse of children and women because of the same-ish principles at play here. I think that's partly why I feel so sorry for the girls and why I feel as though all of this is incredibly unfair to them. I don't really care if they are bigots, they are still human beings. I would be just as upset if this were revealed in some family as truly awful as the Westboro Baptist Church clan.

 

Does any of this make sense?

 

This was the topic of a discussion with my daughter yesterday - she's mortified by some of the liberals expressing glee at the downfall of the Duggars, who seem to not be taking into consideration that it's come at a terrible cost to the victims.  Her point is that it is every bit as hypocritical as the Duggars supposedly are themselves.  And 'round and 'round it goes.

 

eta: and it does go round and round because I'm having an impossible time separating the fact that I'd have had Josh and his parents taken down by any means because of their bigoted hate mongering - and my heart breaks for the victims.

Edited May 27, 2015 by NextIteration

[Maharincess]

No I haven't submitted it anywhere. If you or anyone else wants to, feel free.

I read about it days ago. I don't think its big news. I've read it at a couple of different places.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Maharincess

[Rhondinella]

Please note that the mod note pinned at the top of the page has had an addition.  Please read and act accordingly.

[Rhondinella]

I'm PROUD of the Duggar girls for telling. I'm proud that perhaps they might see the TV show to a new life. That's empowerment. Whatever abuse occurred, these girls felt safe and loved enough to go to the parents.

 

 

Sunflowers, welcome here!  We're glad to have you.  I just wanted to respond to this because otherwise you will likely get 47 other people doing it.

 

I don't know if you've had time to read everything, as you admitted you had only recently started reading the boards, but the evidence we have at the moment SEEMS to indicate that the girls themselves did NOT tell their parents about the abuse (which is quite common with abuse cases). It was revealed initially through the letter accidentally left in a book loaned to a friend, and subsequently after an anonymous note was sent to the Oprah show and they turned it over to the police.  Had the girls told their parents before that? We can't know for certain that they didn't, but it certainly doesn't seem so.  All this is from the police report as well as interviews with the family members themselves.

 

I agree with you that if they had been empowered enough to go to their parents that would be AWESOME.  Still wouldn't mitigate the harm that was done to them, but would at least perhaps show some hope for the future.  But as of right now we have no real evidence that this is true.  Although I agree the married daughters do seem to be inching away from their parents' ways. So that might be a good sign.

 

NOTE TO EVERYONE ELSE: Please don't respond to Sunflowers saying the same thing I just did.  This is enough.

[Gemma Violet]

I remember a story my mother told me years ago.  When she was young, in the 1930s, there was a teen in town who had gone to church in a red dress.  Very scandalous for the day.  When the girl's mother found out, she was furious.  It so happens that the next day, one of their family members died.  The mother told the teen that it was her fault that the family member had died, that God was punishing the family for her wearing the red dress to church.  My mom said that the girl lived to be an old woman and never did she wear any color but black because of the guilt she felt.  

 

All this talk about these poor girls reminded me of this story.  How can a parent inflict that on a child?

Edited May 27, 2015 by Gemma Violet

[maggiemae]

I wonder what Josh is doing back in DC...packing up to return home. Can't imagine what future he has in DC......even other organizations like the FRC.

[NextIteration]

As fun as the spoof National Reporter site can be (it's a perfect imitation of HuffPost) I think it is in remarkably shitty taste to have posted that fake CPS report, but I suppose that some would think that's awesome satire.  "Too soon" and too desired for me to think it's funny at all.

[pennben]

 

I don't know if you've had time to read everything, as you admitted you had only recently started reading the boards, but the evidence we have at the moment SEEMS to indicate that the girls themselves did NOT tell their parents about the abuse (which is quite common with abuse cases).

 

I'm not sure that I agree.  According to the InTouch article that discusses the police report:

 

 

The report says that James told police he was alerted in March, 2002 by a female minor that Josh — who turned 14-years-old that month — had been touching her breasts and genitals while she slept. This allegedly happened on multiple occasions. Jim Bob told police that about nine months later in March, 2003 “there was another incident.” Josh was again accused by a female minor of touching her breasts and genitals. Josh was accused by several minors of touching their genitals, often when they slept, but at times when they were awake.

 

Granted, we don't know who the female minors were that told the father. I don't follow the show, but have been following this fall out here and there, so I may have missed something somewhere else.  Apologies if that is the case.

Edited May 27, 2015 by pennben

[Picture It. Sicily]

 

I remember a story my mother told me years ago.  When she was young, in the 1930s, there was a teen in town who had gone to church in a red dress.  Very scandalous for the day.  When the girl's mother found out, she was furious.  It so happens that the next day, one of their family members died.  The mother told the teen that it was her fault that the family member had died, that God was punishing the family for her wearing the red dress to church.  My mom said that the girl lived to be an old woman and never did she wear any color but black because of the guilt she felt. 

All this talk about these poor girls reminded me of this story.  How can a parent inflict that on a child?

My mother went to Catholic school in the sixties. The nun who taught her grade passed away over the summer. Mother Superior came in on the first day of class and told the students that they had killed her with their 'terrible' behavior. My mother laughed when she told me this story, but I can't help but think that a part of her carried that guilt with her. Words are very powerful and when you attach god to it, like the Duggars do, it can be devastating to a child who believes in every word the adults in their lives say.

[zenme]

I wonder what Josh is doing back in DC...packing up to return home. Can't imagine what future he has in DC......even other organizations like the FRC.

 

I'm guessing the Duggar clan won't be going to Maryland to pack up Josh and family, nor will a Bates child be sent to help...Maybe Josh will have a moving company pack up his Hobby Lobby "Family" plaques, and dirty mattresses and have them sent to his new abode in Arkansas.  As for FRC, I'm thinking Josh won't be getting obligatory farewell cake and party?

[ChicksDigScars]

OK. That? I can tell you is a huge deal. Because Behr is Home Depot is Ken Langone, who recently let it be known that if the new pope didn't stop being less right wing than the previous pope (and keep in mind, up to this point he said we had to do everything the pope said because he was the pope), american billionaires were going to stop donating.

If Ken Langone bailed on patriarchal PR, things have gotten real. Except for things, read more digestive things. I am a Depot girl and a huge Behr fan. I spend a lot of money there and also bought a lot of paint. Best paint ever so I am happy about this. Since I have decided to not watch TLC at all anymore, I will boycott all sponsors.

 

[snip]

 

Even more than Home Depot giving the Duggars the heave ho, the biggest one for me is General Mills. Holy crap. That's a HUGE loss. When I heard that General Mills pulled their sponsorship, I thought, "It's over, Jim Bob."

 

I keep thinking of the movie Private Parts: 

 

"We just lost Stereo City. This is not Muffler Man. This is Stereo-fucking-City."

"You know there's gonna be other sponsors....."

"No, there's not, Jim Bob, 'cause your career is over. You're finished."

Edited May 27, 2015 by Rhondinella
off topic

[Sunflowers]

I'm not sure that I agree. According to the InTouch article that discusses the police report:

Granted, we don't know who the female minors were that told the father. I don't follow the show, but have been following this fall out here and there, so I may have missed something somewhere else. Apologies if that is the case.

[Sunflowers]

Yes, that's what confused me, too! And I deeply apologize if I'm confused. But we, in the nine zillion posts,plus links, plus, police reports, plus this "Alice," I mean it goes on and on. And, while I understand the time line distinctly, and I understand all about Harpo, Oprah, posible TLC cover up. The mysterious letter in the book...... BUT, I also. Am almost certain that I read one girl told, the parents kinda blew that off, and I can truly understand that, in this day and age of over the top criminalization. I mean, okay. ...but then, about a year later, the other girls told. Now, it's NOT one little incident, it's a behavior, And no parent should ever ignore that, and that was when Josh, was sent away. To be honest, After that, then comes the trip to Oprah, and then letter is then sent to Oprah. So my understanding is that those girls told. I'm not trying to defend this by any means, I'm just seeing those girls has being way more empowered than anyone is giving them credit for. I kind of think, well thank God, TLC was in the house all those years, it certainly had to have some influence in behaving better, it gave the girls a remarkable education in marketing, promotion. Yes, sexual abuse is horrific. I'm not diminishing that, I'm not saying it's not a big deal. My life was destroyed by my childhood. But I was incredibly isolated, they weren't isolated, I was one child, all alone. They had each other, they for a better opportunity and life, by growing up with the opportunities that TLC gave them. I laugh when they say Nike, because it's almost as though they DO think their brother's are pathetic horn dogs. I would hold accountable is ANNA, because now that there is at very least, a behavior, she cannot, should not EVER raise those girls around him. But those girls, I see them as way more empowered than we think. And different people do have differential coping skills, ways of processing trauma, through spiritual beliefs, and if they are just now beginning the best part of their lives, their love, passions, journey to learn, explore. ....after all these years. Who are we to define their experience, which we really, don't know.

[Muffyn]

The suggestion from the accounts is that one girl told, not each of them.  When the book incident happened, an older girl saw what pervo Josh was doing and reported it to their parents.  

[Sunflowers]

Look at it from Jessa's point. Abuse or no abuse, whether the parents are mysogonistic, homophobic, evangelists, using the show to push an agenda or not. ..It's all irrelevant now. It's done. Clearly these people are the most famous/infamous people in America at the moment. Depending on if you love them or hate them. But, here she spent all those years SLAVING over those, kids, marketing herself through You Tube, she gets the wedding. .. Actually DOES get pregnant, but had to keep it a secret, so Jill, can have her moment, because she sure deserves it, they work in tandem, that to me, shows a highly strategic move by both of these girls in understanding maejeting, promotion A. Way. Out. ..And, NOW, with all those years of this. ...to yank the show away from her, Jana, the other girls, BECAUSE OF WHAT SOME JERK DID ALREADY? SO now we torture the girls twice, by taking away the one good, empowering, franchise those girls have? Because whatever our feelings were about raising kids in the show, we've given those girls a marketing kingdom. And they clearly I know how to use social media marketing. Who cares what Josh thinks, let him rot. Who cares what the parents think. But, the one thing we all agree on, I hope, is not torturing the girls twice, because of the family, the guy. But by taking away the show, we are now taking away Jessa's, Jill's moment to shine, spread their wings after all those years dreaming of this moment to be free. And who knows what they will be like in a few years. My beliefs were not the same when I started college. I was naive. And we just took it all away. TWICE. BECAUSE OF WHAT THE GUY DID. So... she, the girls, who have inadvertly been groomed for this all their lives. The GIRLS pay the price. Twice. How's that not horrific? Hate them, love them, but that show, TLC is the younger girls best protection in the home, NOW, and, future. Because, this is beyond some social worker, beyond criminalization, and beyond our own agendas and politics, it is beyond our control. If what we really, truly care about, is those girls, then why punish them twice, for someone else's behavior, and a lifetime of events beyond all of our control, and theirs, that had now become their greatest gift to get out, to learn, to decide what they want. It's like raping the victim twice, through the legal system, the guy still goes free, and now we've ruined their reputation, because of someone else's deeds. That's messed up. It's not about politics, not about what happens to Josh. That's come and gone. Now it's about salvaging the chance for income, eeducation, freedom, the moment to be their own selves, in the sun, free. For. The. Girls.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Sunflowers

[lilabennet]

Even more than Home Depot giving the Duggars the heave ho, the biggest one for me is General Mills. Holy crap. That's a HUGE loss. When I heard that General Mills pulled their sponsorship, I thought, "It's over, Jim Bob."

 

I keep thinking of the movie Private Parts: 

 

"We just lost Stereo City. This is not Muffler Man. This is Stereo-fucking-City."

"You know there's gonna be other sponsors....."

"No, there's not, Jim Bob, 'cause your career is over. You're finished."

Given General Mills' pro-LGBT stance, you would think that JimBob wouldn't want their sponsorship associated with his show.  I guess his convictions don't extend to denying his pocketbook ready cash.

[shannon612]

Just saw that alot of the sponsors are bailing out on the show. But do you think TLC would still show the new season since it is already taped? Because I hate to admit it but I really wanted to see it..

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When they cancelled Honey Boo Boo, they had already shot some of the new season and those episodes were never aired.

[Micks Picks]

But where will we go, what will we do with our time if we don't have the show to snark on and each other to visit?  I have often been kind of down and burst out laughing at a comment made.  And the last few days, I've been wide awake, eyes scratchy, reading away, and making horrible typing mistakes.  I really like the posters here.

[Darknight]

Maybe JimChelle or Joshanna will leave the country for a few months til this passes over.

[Julia]

When they cancelled Honey Boo Boo, they had already shot some of the new season and those episodes were never aired.

I think the response to the idea of abusers, or people who allowed abuse to go on, profiting from the exploitation of children is visceral enough for most people out there that they more or less have to bail the way they did with Honey Boo Boo. The number of people who have heard about this now dwarves the number who actually watched the Duggars, or even the channel they're shown on.

I suspect that the parent company, which has dozens of other channels to consider, are going to have to make this go away before viewers of, say, the aspirant Discovery-branded channels or their many overseas channels in socially conservative countries are exposed to the particular form of social narrowcasting they specialize in on TLC.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Julia

[CofCinci]

But where will we go, what will we do with our time if we don't have the show to snark on and each other to visit? I have often been kind of down and burst out laughing at a comment made. And the last few days, I've been wide awake, eyes scratchy, reading away, and making horrible typing mistakes. I really like the posters here.

We can't snark on this family anymore, which was, sadly, something I enjoyed. I have a high stress job and coming here/TWoP to read and post hilarious comments was one way to ground myself after intense sessions (I'm a psychotherapist with the VA, who helps process Afghanistan and Iraq trauma all day). Bin is now Ben. JoylessAnna will never be used again. We no longer think of Jana as an old maid. Michelle's Xanax state has more meaning now. Can't even joke about them wearing their full street clothes to bed because now we understand why they do so. We are now post-snark. Post-schadenfreude. They're a real family now with real pain and it's not fun to dwell in that space. For years they kept up a holier than thou facade but in reality, they're like so many American families, whether they're ready to admit it or not.

Le roi est mort, vive le roi !

On to the Kody Brown and his 3/4 wives! Wet bar of tears, snark buddies.

[becca3891]

If the fundie men supposedly have no self-control, are constantly at risk for succumbing to temptation, and aren't expected to take any responsibility for their actions, it seems asinine that the fundie women should look to them as "leaders" and headships. Why follow someone so weak?

Excellent point. I once asked a (fundie) pastor a similar question and got a horrifying response. Basically, he said that women, through Eve, ruined God's plan of a perfect man. So the man is still superior even though he has been made weak in this area because of the sin of Eve,who was tempted by the serpent. Again, it's all viewed through the lens that personhood, by default is male, and that women sort of exist also, but in a secondhand kind of way. 

 

I think all of the older ones have A GED. Jessa might be the only one with a HS diploma, though.

When you're homeschooled, the only kind of diploma you can get is a GED. Your parents might print something out for you, but it doesn't really mean anything.

I don't know if you've had time to read everything, as you admitted you had only recently started reading the boards, but the evidence we have at the moment SEEMS to indicate that the girls themselves did NOT tell their parents about the abuse (which is quite common with abuse cases). 

Actually, page 14 of the police report makes it very clear that one of the daughters went to Jim Bob in March 2002, crying and saying she had witnessed abuse. According to the report, this was how Jim Bob first became aware of it, and the letter of unknown origin (probably a church elder) was written later, after Josh confessed and Jim Bob told the elders about it. Not to criticize, because you moderators do a great job, but this is a rather important point and the OP was right that it was one of the daughters who blew the whistle.

Edited May 27, 2015 by becca3891

[SomePity1066]

Hello!  I'm the other person in North America who's never had - and never will have - a Facebook account. I guess we're a club now. Let's get jackets made! :>)

[snip] I'll bet Josh is shitting his pants wondering how many people have gone through his account with a fine tooth comb looking for more evidence...

 

That's the problem with social media - once it's out there, it's out there. Forever.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Rhondinella
OT and verboten subject

[mbutterfly]

Admittedly, I was fascinated but not shocked. My maternal grandparents back in Brooklyn had 21 children (irish catholic..no tv etc lol) So for me...I was intrigued to see how a family in this day and age would handle it.  Times are very different...times were very different back then..and it was not unheard of. My dear sweet mom is now 85 with Alzheimers.....she cannot remember what she had for lunch but her stories of growing up are amazing....

 

Maybe it was not right back then either..but I do think that back in the "old days"..it was just different.

 

Now? I have 121 FIRST cousins and have 175 cousins up to third cousins lol....

 

On my fathers side...he was one of 15...most of whom are still in Ireland....55 cousins there and 112 in total...needless to say...I am family'ed up! lol

I was an only child and I loved the book and the movie Cheaper by the Dozen (the original that focused upon how the Gilbreth's used their engineering knowledge of efficiency to provide a happy lifestyle. I thought 19 Kids would be something like that. Then I got fascinated by the weirdness. By the way did you know that in time-motion studies in industry a single action in the process is called a "therblig" in honor of the Gilbreths. Jim Bob and Michelle are not the Doctors Gilbreth and Josh is not Frank Gilbreth, Jr. 

[dillpickles]

This should be the official saying of the Snarkers:

Veni, Vedi, Vici: veni (I came), vidi (I saw), vici (I conquered).. I should be (we instead of I) as in the World Wide Snarkers Association, I'm sure Julius Caeser wouldn't mind.

Brain you're on fire with this snark.

[Abstract]

I was an only child and I loved the book and the movie Cheaper by the Dozen (the original that focused upon how the Gilbreth's used their engineering knowledge of efficiency to provide a happy lifestyle. I thought 19 Kids would be something like that. Then I got fascinated by the weirdness. By the way did you know that in time-motion studies in industry a single action in the process is called a "therblig" in honor of the Gilbreths. Jim Bob and Michelle are not the Doctors Gilbreth and Josh is not Frank Gilbreth, Jr.

But if you re-read the book with the Duggars in mind, it becomes apparent (to me, anyway) that JB thinks of himself as Frank Gilbreth. I think a lot of his obnoxious corny behavior is his own ignorant take on Gilbreth's more outrageous behavior as portrayed in the book.

[doodlebug]

 

 

 

Can someone explain the Oprah thing to me? So, she did interview them, filmed the show, but cancelled it?

I sincerely hope CPS, despite the fake story, is investigating this. How can they not?

 

 

I don't think we know if anything was filmed, but, as I recall, the family went to Chicago for a pre-interview and evaluation.  I don't believe Oprah or the Duggars have ever spoken about what happened or why the show wasn't taped and broadcast.  Rumor had it that Jim Bob insisted on complete control of the interview including what questions could be asked and the option to edit out anything he didn't like.  No way Oprah would've agreed to that.  It was also rumored that, in the course of the interview, Jill and Jana's interest in midwifery was discussed and Oprah offered them free tuition to a real midwifery school and they flatly turned it down, making it clear that they weren't permitted to participate in non-fundie schooling.  Oprah who is all about educating women, decided to can the whole thing since she couldn't broadcast and appear to endorse that kind of narrow mindedness.  And, now, of course, it is quite possible that Oprah simply cancelled the interview after getting the letter alleging the abuse.  If the producers approached Jim Bob about it and he acknowledged that the letter had a basis in fact; Harpo would've backed off in a heartbeat.

 

As far as CPS getting involved now, there are no allegations of current abuse.  All this stuff is more than a decade in the past.  All but one of the principals is an adult and the last one will be in a couple months.  CPS is swamped with business; unless there are allegations of recent or current abuse; there is nothing to investigate.  The police report indicates they were involved 10 years ago and probably signed off long ago.  If they were to get involved with the Duggars now, over incidents from more than 12 years ago; the family would rightfully be able to sue for harassment.  Now, if there is something current that someone reports, that's a different story.

[Bella]

But where will we go, what will we do with our time if we don't have the show to snark on and each other to visit?  I have often been kind of down and burst out laughing at a comment made.  And the last few days, I've been wide awake, eyes scratchy, reading away, and making horrible typing mistakes.  I really like the posters here.

 

I don't think this forum is going away any time soon. More revelations will happen, more info will trickle out, etc.

 

I looked at the stats on the mod turf spreadsheet, and this forum has ~42,000 posts (half of which seem to have been made on Friday, but maybe that's just me). For comparison purposes, and sort of randomly, The Amazing Race is considered a typically "busy forum" and has just shy of 8,000 posts, Arrow (our busiest) has just under 70,000, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (off for years) has about 5,000 posts, and Gilmore Girls (long off) has about 10,000. This doesn't prove anything, but I find it interesting, at least, that the Buffy and GG stats show that talk happens regardless of whether episodes air in real time. I think we'll be here for a long time, in other words, especially since these are real people who are going to generate news, unlike Buffy and the Gilmore crew.

 

Anyway, I am awaiting more news related specifically to Josh and the other Duggars, but I think the next wave will involve TLC and the sponsors.

[Zahdii]

Excellent point. I once asked a (fundie) pastor a similar question and got a horrifying response. Basically, he said that women, through Eve, ruined God's plan of a perfect man. So the man is still superior even though he has been made weak in this area because of the sin of Eve,who was tempted by the serpent. Again, it's all viewed through the lens that personhood, by default is male, and that women sort of exist also, but in a secondhand kind of way. 

 

When you're homeschooled, the only kind of diploma you can get is a GED. Your parents might print something out for you, but it doesn't really mean anything.

Actually, page 14 of the police report makes it very clear that one of the daughters went to Jim Bob in March 2002, crying and saying she had witnessed abuse. According to the report, this was how Jim Bob first became aware of it, and the letter of unknown origin (probably a church elder) was written later, after Josh confessed and Jim Bob told the elders about it. Not to criticize, because you moderators do a great job, but this is a rather important point and the OP was right that it was one of the daughters who blew the whistle.

Taking this to the "Gimme That Old Time Religion" thread, because I think it's a better fit there.  And it might be offensive to some people, so people who go there would probably be better prepared to deal with it.

[HumblePi]

Poster with the Duggars

It had already dropped the Duggars' hit show, 19 Kids and Counting, from its schedule after it emerged that the family's eldest son, Josh, had molested several young girls as a teenager.

Now, TLC has pulled Jim Bob Duggar, his wife Michelle and their 19 children from its highly-anticipated Summer Block Party, which is taking place in Philadelphia at noon on Saturday.

The family had originally been slated to appear at the event, which features a number of network stars and is open and free to the public - and had even appeared on the party's official poster.

But they have since been dropped from the party, while Little People Big World's Roloff family has replaced Jim Bob and Michelle on the poster,

Poster magically replaced with the Roloffs

I have a vision of Michelle calling over the loudspeaker/intercom thing for all the children to come to the living room for a family meeting. As they're all sitting quietly, looking at her somber face, with eyes wide, speaking in a slow, hushed Michelle-speak. "Now children, we will not be going to the big block party in Philadelphia this weekend. Instead, we will be praying as a family, giving side hugs and making tater-tot casserole together. This is what God wants us to do, so we should all pray on that. Now, everyone haul your own suitcases up the stairs so that the girls can unpack them."

Edited May 27, 2015 by HumblePi

[Katydid]

People's first Duggar offering of the day (you know there will be several more) is a non-story where a "source" claims the Duggars aren't worried about the future of the show, but instead are "focusing on their faith." Of course they are, right? It's not like they'd come out and say they are busy frantically rearranging the deck chairs on their Titanic.

http://www.people.com/article/19-kids-counting-cancelation-jim-bob-michelle-duggar-josh-duggar-molestation-reports

ETA: You know you're in trouble when you get dropped from an event/poster that features even Kate Gosselin. And does this mean they are gonig to revive the Roloff show? (maybe they were always going to- I think Zach is supposed to get married this summer).

Edited May 27, 2015 by Katydid

[CofCinci]

The Roloffs? Guess Matt hasn't DUI'd in a while and is in TLC's good graces again.

[HumblePi]

People's first Duggar offering of the day (you know there will be several more) is a non-story where a "source" claims the Duggars aren't worried about the future of the show, but instead are "focusing on their faith." Of course they are, right? It's not like they'd come out and say they are busy frantically rearranging the deck chairs on their Titanic.

http://www.people.com/article/19-kids-counting-cancelation-jim-bob-michelle-duggar-josh-duggar-molestation-reports

ETA: You know you're in trouble when you get dropped from an event/poster that features even Kate Gosselin. And does this mean they are gonig to revive the Roloff show? (maybe they were always going to- I think Zach is supposed to get married this summer).

Even on TLC, if you let your freak-flag-fly just a little too high, they'll chop you right off the schedule. (Cue the Roloffs)

Edited May 27, 2015 by HumblePi

[JoanArc]

Ah...probably their last PEOPLE cover ever.

[Julia]

I don't really understand why they would be going anyway. Kate is one of america's most prominent users of in vitro and divorced, and Randy is pretty openly not a heterosexual person. Aren't they countenancing both those things and giving them their approval as family-friendly by appearing?

[ChicksDigScars]

Ugh. The Roloff's have been "so over" for awhile now. Matt and Amy haven't tolerated each other's presence in YEARS. TLC must have been pretty desperate (and Jen Arnold couldn't get off work).

 

 

 

I was an only child and I loved the book and the movie Cheaper by the Dozen (the original that focused upon how the Gilbreth's used their engineering knowledge of efficiency to provide a happy lifestyle.

 

What is it with us only children and large family curiosity? Wanting what we never had? When I was a kid, I loved a book called I Should Have Seen it Coming When the Rabbit Died. The author, Teresa Bloomingdale, was a devoted Catholic who "practiced" rhythm method birth control (but never actually perfected it) and ended up with 12 kids.  It was written in an Erma Bombeck style, with humor.  I think that I still have the paperback in a box somewhere. 

 

 

 

Ah...probably their last PEOPLE cover ever.

 

Maybe not. If one of the girls breaks free and decides to spill, THAT will be on the cover, for sure. Oh, to dream. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by ChicksDigScars

[partofme]

I hope this show is cancelled, and while I feel sorry for the victims, I don't feel the least bit sorry about this family losing income from the show, there are lots of Americans struggling to make ends meet who don't get money from a tv show.

[NextIteration]

About large families, my family was an oddity in our neighborhood FULL of Catholics, just 2 1/2 of us.  (Me, my younger sister and my older half sister, which my father won custody of SHOCK! and my parents were excommunicated because of my Father's divorce with lack of annulment.)  I can remember six families with over eight children in them and sadly every single one of them had a "caboose child" with severe developmental and/or physical impairments, but, we all played and took care of one another to some extent so it was great!

 

@ChicksDigScars - that book sounds like a hoot, I think I'll check it out.

[CherryAmes]

Like others one reason I was drawn to this show initially was having read one too many books about big happy families, but particularly for me it was the movie Yours, Mine and Ours (the original movie with Lucille Ball).  I loved that movie as a kid and thought being part of a big family would be amazing.  It didn't take many minutes ito 19 Kids though to make me realize there is a huge difference between a big happy movie family (even if it was based on a real life family) and a real life fundie family! 

[parisprincess]

But by taking away the show, we are now taking away Jessa's, Jill's moment to shine, spread their wings after all those years dreaming of this moment to be free.

 

The Duggar girls do not need this show to be free.  In my opinion, they can shine, spread their wings and be free much easier without cameras following them around now that their abuse has come out.  Having people watch their every move, speculating on what they're thinking and how they're feeling, can't be a good thing for them.  I just hope their parents do some soul searching and make it easier for the whole family to move on from this tragedy, far away from the public eye. 

 

As for JimBob and Michelle, after all their bible quoting, its clear they didn't pay much attention to this quote: Judge not, lest ye be judged, because, as they're finding out now, Karma is a bitch!

Edited May 27, 2015 by parisprincess

[Patrizio]

While I do feel sorry for the daughters, I could never support a show featuring them unless it was about their struggle to separate from this cult. II never watched the show, it was not until they became regular cover stories on People magazine that they came onto my radar. I thought to myself, why are these people being honored in such a way? Why are their weddings/births being celebrated? What have they accomplished? I don't know how I would handle the situation that faced this family years ago when the abuse first happened. I can tell you that a skeleton in the closet of this magnitude would have precluded me from participating in a reality program showcasing family values. Perhaps if the family had kept a lower profile and  not been critical of others, the show would have continued unabated.

[ChicksDigScars]

The original, 1968 version of Yours, Mine and Our's is SO MUCH better than the re-make. I have the DVD!  (another only child obsession)  Even though Lucille Ball, especially, seemed too old for the part. Michelle Duggar should WORSHIP that movie. Lucy was 57 and playing a pregnant woman! There's HOPE, you bat shit crazy lunatic!

 

@NextIteration, the book is a little dated now, but still cute. I think most of Bloomingdale's kids were born in the late 50's through the 60's. 

 

TOPIC: Dare to dream that this situation will cure Anna of her "baby fever" and realize that 2 boys and 2 girls is a nice number. Please, for the love of all that's holy, stop breeding with him. 

[Julia]

I thought to myself, why are these people being honored in such a way? Why are their weddings/births being celebrated? What have they accomplished?

They have a following in a community which 1) tends to avoid secular media, and 2) buys a lot of soap and toothpaste.

[Kcat1971]

When you're homeschooled, the only kind of diploma you can get is a GED. Your parents might print something out for you, but it doesn't really mean anything.

 

 

I'm sorry that is just NOT true.  But the response belongs in the Education Thread so I'll take it there.

[CofCinci]

Ah...probably their last PEOPLE cover ever.

No. I'm holding out for a "[Duggar daughter] BREAKS HER SILENCE" exclusive in the next few months. The Chrisian crisis PR firm the Duggars have hired are probably fleshing out the details now, especially since the family has an established relationship (deal?) with PEOPLE.