Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[starfire]

mingming, on 25 May 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:mingming, on 25 May 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

I found another post by concernedmom which said pretty much the same thing that I originally posted but with this as well:

 

Then about a year later, my friend decided to go back to the home church and see everyone again. She was appalled at what went on at that particular meeting. An eight year old girl was made by her parents to stand in front of the group and confess the sin of masturbation and ask for punishment(to cleanse her) and forgiveness. My first thought was that this girl had to have been abused if she was truly masturbating, but with the power of these families, what can you do?

Twisted. I wonder if "concernedmom" (or her friend) is the same person as "Alice" who also posted about the molestations a long time ago and seemed to be a current or former member of Duggar's church.

http://www.people.com/article/online-commenter-warned-josh-duggar-molestation

Edited May 25, 2015 by starfire

[bk10]

I live in NYC and Verizon Fios still has 5 episodes up.

[ChicksDigScars]

I need to look into this Amazon Smile thing people are talking about. I pretty much never pay any attention to my Amazon account, but it sounds like something useful is happening.

 

It's a good deal. Nothing changes in your shopping or prices. You just log into Amazon Smile, designate a charity, and they get a percentage when you shop. The no-kill animal shelter that I volunteer with has done it since the beginning (and they get my Amazon Smile money), and they have gotten checks from them for all the orders that have gone through. Might be quarterly or a couple times a year.

 

Mr. Seewald's blog is just laughable. The fact that he would dedicate one paragraph to the victims and the rest to Josh and the idea of forgiveness is so ridiculous.

 

The responses make me even more angry. One lady, honestly asked what the difference was between accepting and forgiving what Josh did (and the Duggars response to it), and the what they (and Seewald) says against gay marriage and homosexuals themselves. She said that she was a Christian and politely asked. The justification given by others (that Josh and the Duggars sought forgiveness, yet homosexuals continue to sin) made my occasional Catholic blood boil. What a bunch of "convenient Christians."  They see and interpret what they want, not what is actually written or said. 

 

I'm not going to that blog anymore. That loathsome tool and his blind sycophants just piss me off.  Not to mention making anyone who may call themselves a Christian, no matter what their religion is, or how often they go to church, look like fucking idiots. 

 

And the fact that I used the f-bomb in the same sentence as religion, gives you some idea how often a priest sees me. 

[Literata]

Ten things every person should be able to affirm in the face of the Duggar family tragedy

http://teaminfocus.com.au/ten-things-every-person-should-be-able-to-affirm-in-the-face-of-the-duggar-family-tragedy/

Beautiful. Thank you for sharing this.

The "sin versus crime" section should be mandatory reading for anyone who believes Josh's "youthful indiscretions" should be excused.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Literata

[Lillybee]

Interesting article on how ATI is into victim shaming.

 

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/heres-how-the-duggars-patriarchal-homeschool-world-teaches-kids-to-shame-sex-abuse-victims/

[Wellfleet]

I actually do feel real pity for Josh. Because he lived not only in an environment that no doubt took something that might only have been a little warped and twisted it harder within him, but then pretty much refused to get him real help for it once they found out.

Plenty of people who work with people dealing with what he suffered with have said many people grow into adults who do not go on to act upon such urges as adults. Whether Josh does or not is not something we know, but we know the chances would be much higher if he'd been offered real help.

At some level, he must feel it. I know plenty think of him only as "Smuggar" but if he DID stop, imagine bringing down your entire family, your entire extended family and everything you held dear based upon something that happened when you were only a teenager. That is NOT to minimize what he did, but unless there are further allegations that the abuse continued into adulthood, then yes, I can feel pity. I feel pity for most young people who screw up their lives so badly at the start, actually.

 

The largest part of any pity I feel for Josh is that he has Boob and Me-chelle for parents - and they were neither bright enough nor strong enough to get him - not to mention the girls - the help they all needed. Josh could have become an abuser even if Mother Teresa and Pope Francis had been his parents. The impulse could well be organic, at least to some extent - for all we know right now. So there's that. But even without the interference of the whole Gothard world and all the worst kind of influence it had, I'm guessing Boob and Me-chelle would only have clocked out to be mediocre parents at best. She is all about herself, no matter what. As a youngest child, born to a mother late in life, she was probably not especially wanted, and largely ignored as a young child. Except when she was the typically-adorable baby and pre-schooler, performing and getting laughs from the family and anyone else who'd listen to her. He, IMO, was picked on by neighbor kids and schoolmates alike, primarily for his size. Add to that what sounded like tough economic times for periods, and the intimations of conflicts with his own father - God alone knowing what they were. Plus having a fairly-submissive mother, if Grandma as she is today is any indication. Marrying far too young, with no education and no broader world view, having their own money troubles I'm sure - plus the other factors above, these are not two people who had the best of circumstances going into parenthood. A version of The Perfect Storm - a lot of reasons these two should have no kids, and certainly not as many as they were physically able, which is what they did. They just leaped onto the Gothard train, determined to do it all, throwing the throttle wide open and not caring in the least who wandered onto the track up ahead...

 

Edited for content.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Wellfleet

[HumblePi]

I have DirecTV and there are 3 episodes available on demand. 2 are the behind the scenes ones (the Erica Hill interview and the crew behind the scenes) and the last is Jill's delivery special. I'm ok with those since they don't focus on JB & M or Josh's family. The guide says they're available til 6/16.

I watched the Erica Hill special with the Duggar family and it was nauseating. Erica Hill is nauseating all by herself but when she spoon-feeds every question to them which has been decided beforehand, it just makes me want to throw up my breakfast.

[Pasha Kitty]

Well, the Duggars continue to draw us in.  People are posting like mad, all over the internet...... once TLC officially says bye-bye, some network is sure to want 'in' on the Duggars.  

I'm thinking that the E! Channel might eventually make them an offer they can't refuse, but then, the Kardashians  pretty much own E! and they would not allow it (I am not knocking the K's- I don't watch them, but at least 'they are who they are').

*Hallmark Channel?  Nah, the network is too wholesome.  

*UP?  Nah, the Bateses are already their mega family.

*TruTv?  Nah, the Duggars don't tell the truth.

*A & E (Arts & Entertainment)?  Nah, this network wouldn't want to hurt its reputation.

 

Just maybe......The BRAVO network????  Does anyone think there's a tv network out there that would film Josh after all of this?

Curious to know your thoughts.  Thanks. 

 

[Sew Sumi]

I'm sorry to be the wet blanket here, but I wish this whole TFDW thing would stop as I've read the list in the 19 Questions Thread and the explanation of how TFDW came about and it's clear that this is a term used for mockery.  One, being gay isn't something to be mocked, no more than having red hair or being left-handed.  It's no ok to mock gay people.  Two, so much of the criticism against the Duggars over the years have been their strict adherence to gender stereotypes, so it makes little sense that the fandom would mock a person for not strictly adhering to a specific gender behavior.  shame shame shame.  Raginging about Waller's stance on the LGBTQIA community is one thing.  Mocking him for the suspicion that he's gay is shameful.  

 

I recognize this is a post that will likely be hidden but I just can't stand this anymore and am genuinely saddened that this sort of behavior persists outside of the Duggar cult.  

My post referred to how David would handle Josh in terms of representing the Cult. Being his BIL is actually secondary. The public persona is what he's selling. Period. This has nothing to do with his sexuality. 

[Ljohnson1987]

http://www.people.com/article/michael-seewald-josh-duggar-reaction

 

Hey, Jessa. How do you feel that you FIL is supporting your brother that possibly molested you?

[Oldernowiser]

There are about twenty different religion channels DISHTV insists on including in my basic channel package...all of them Christian, most of them evangelical. I can see the PTL (Praise The Lord) channel eating this up and putting the whole family out there in sequins and big hair while weeping and begging for love offerings.

Jim and Tammy Faye times 21.

[lookeyloo]

Oldernowiser - just had that discussion with daughter-in-law about the religion channels

[Churchhoney]

Well, the Duggars continue to draw us in.  People are posting like mad, all over the internet...... once TLC officially says bye-bye, some network is sure to want 'in' on the Duggars.  

I'm thinking that the E! Channel might eventually make them an offer they can't refuse, but then, the Kardashians  pretty much own E! and they would not allow it (I am not knocking the K's- I don't watch them, but at least 'they are who they are').

*Hallmark Channel?  Nah, the network is too wholesome.  

*UP?  Nah, the Bateses are already their mega family.

*TruTv?  Nah, the Duggars don't tell the truth.

*A & E (Arts & Entertainment)?  Nah, this network wouldn't want to hurt its reputation.

 

Just maybe......The BRAVO network????  Does anyone think there's a tv network out there that would film Josh after all of this?

Curious to know your thoughts.  Thanks. 

 

 

I vote for the Crime & Investigation Network.

[Sunnybobs]

Interesting article on how ATI is into victim shaming.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/heres-how-the-duggars-patriarchal-homeschool-world-teaches-kids-to-shame-sex-abuse-victims/

Wow this article had brought it home to me like no other how deeply weird and messed up the ATI attitude to sexual abuse is. It was hard to read. The very disturbing example ATI "counselling" literature used to explain how sexual abuse could happen in the home is frighteningly similar to the incidents reported in the police report. That the example boy in the counselling page was tempted towards abuse of his siblings by seeing them run around after their bath naked or in towels, that his parents were to blame for not insisting on modesty enough. Ugh how anyone can be "counselled" using these as beliefs is really really alarming. Also the fact that it is used as an example could suggest that this is one area that ATI was having to counsel families through which might also suggest this was a bigger problem. Separate to that the understanding that if counselling was given to any of those affected in the Duggar case - victims or abusers it would follow this model and be invested in these beliefs has only made me more aware how little I have ever understood Duggar philosophy. How you rebuild a family with that as your guide I have no idea.

[JoanArc]

 

"Family-oriented" and "family values" are meaningless terms to me. Lizzie Bordon was family-oriented. The Borgias and Tudors were family-oriented, and took efforts to "spread their ministry." Even Charles Manson focused on his 'family.'

This is such a beautiful quote it bears repeating. 'Family' is such a cipher.

 

I don't for one second believe Josh stopped. No pity for him whatsoever. He never faced a single REAL consequence, or learned a single lesson, except maybe how not to get caught. Sexual abusers get REALLY, FREAKISHLY good at picking victims who won't fight back, or who won't tell. It's a sick form of art, like a sixth sense. I know there's other victims, or other women he's had sex with. Rightly or wrongly the media will track some of them down, and we'll hear all about it.

 

My pity is reserved for Anna. She deserves a mulligan for getting getting married at the emotional age of 12.

[ChicksDigScars]

So, I'm taking some satisfaction that since Josh was blamed for JB losing the election (despite the fact that most voters at the time, had no idea about "sin in the camp"), he'll be blamed for the family cash flow being cut off (despite JB owning property and having other sources of income).  While this satisfies me as SOME sort of punishment for what he did, it also makes me sad. If Josh was an unmarried man with no children (like JD, for example), it would be more of a satisfying feeling after what he did. But, there's Anna and (almost) four cute kids.

 

I have seen posters on places like Gawker gleefully pointing to this happening as "the day they've been waiting for, " and how thrilled that this means the downfall of the Duggars. As much as I loathe Josh, MEE-chelle and Jim Bob, I can't be gleeful because of his sisters and his children, and how this affected, and will continue to affect, them.  Does this make sense?

 

It's a weird feeling.

Edited May 25, 2015 by ChicksDigScars

[Jamiesmum]

I live in Australia where there is a continuing Royal Commission into Child Sex Abuse. Its focus is on abuse that has occurred in all sorts of institutions including churches, schools, youth groups, sports groups, all sorts of places, and the scope is ever widening. It is moving from state to state and calls for all types of peoples to give their testimony including victims, family, staff and members of the various institutions etc. The time frame for delivery of the report has also been extended as the ever widening range of involvement emerges. I give this as background for what I heard today that struck me as relevant to this situation.

A psychiatrist was giving evidence regarding the impact of abuse on the victim. She had 20+ years experience in this field and is considered an expert. She said they there is no single way a victim responds to abuse. Each victim responds in their own way and in their own time. And while they may be OK and able to cope for many years, they can have reactions years later and these may be single or multiple occurrences. Because each victim responds in their own way and own time it is only recently that they have recognised that what manifests as depression or anxiety or substance abuse or whatever is not what needs to to be dealt with. It is the abuse itself. The other things are offshoots of the abuse. Of course she said it more coherently than that, and I apologise for any misunderstanding on my part.

But what really struck me was that the victim worked through their abuse in their own time, when it was suitable for them, and that it was not a one off, you are fixed now, get on with your life deal, and this was being recognised by people who are experts in this area, who work with sex abuse victims all the time. The idea that the abuser says sorry, the victim say OK, all better now, does just not happen. The victim is not all better until they say so. And it may not be permanent, or all better either.

Putting this into a Duggar context, I now see the enforced forgiveness of the victim of their abuser, because the abuser has said sorry under the Gothard system, as a further form of abuse. Time has been denied and the abuser has set the forgiveness timetable to suit them. They are bullied into forgiveness on pain of being unChristian and sinning by withholding their forgiveness. The victim may not even be able to understand what they are forgiving if they have not responded, reacted to or even understood what has happened to them. And as has been shown to be the case many times, even though a child may know what has happened to them is wrong, there are so many who do not really understand actually what has occurred until later, sometimes a lot later. How can forgiveness be given if there is no true understanding of what has happened? How can a child forgive when they cannot understand the full impact of the abuse on themselves?

I was not a victim of sex abuse as a child, but I was in an abusive relationship as an adult. And 35 years later, things still come up that take me by surprise. It can be anything. And my response can range from blowing raspberry and moving on to full on physical, emotional and anxiety reactions. And it took me a long while to realise what was happening. And actually, it took me a long time to realise that it actually had been an abusive relationship.

I empathise with the young ladies here who may not actually realise the full extent of what has happened to them. I hope and pray that proper help is there for them when they need it. And that they are given their own time and that their responses are respected as their own, and legitimate whatever they may be.

[fliptopbox]

I watched the Erica Hill special with the Duggar family and it was nauseating. Erica Hill is nauseating all by herself but when she spoon-feeds every question to them which has been decided beforehand, it just makes me want to throw up my breakfast.

Haven't seen it, and I also have no idea who Erica Hill is. But I am not surprised about the vetted questions, because I think that's how they do all their specials and interviews. Pre-approved mundane questions, all of which they've answered before. And of course M will find a way to trot out her bikini story, because she's still so damn proud of that. You'd think with the way they preach about modesty and covering up that she'd *never* tell that story, but apparently I am wrong. She was able to wear a bikini (back in the day) yet her kids can't even wear shorts.

[Sew Sumi]

Episodes have been taken off On Demand in HD, but they are still there for non-HD. I'm in D.C., if that makes any difference.

Totally removed from Xfinity's OnDemand (eta: SF Bay Area). They were still up yesterday, with the exception of the "street interview" epsiode, which I think was called "Guide to Love" or some such bullshit. I'm sure Josh was featured prominently, but I didn't have the stomach to watch it (had been on vacation, returning home the evening the news broke). 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[GEML]

It's ALWAYS been about Jim Bob and what he wants. The Senate run and $250,000 down the rat hole proved that long before TLC came around.

[bluebonnet]

 

 

I have seen posters on places like Gawker gleefully pointing to this happening as "the day they've been waiting for, " and how thrilled that this means the downfall of the Duggars. As much as I loathe Josh, MEE-chelle and Jim Bob, I can't be gleeful because of his sisters and his children, and how this affected, and will continue to affect, them.  Does this make sense?

 

It's a weird feeling.

It does make sense.  I see both sides of it.  I don't want the children to suffer and I'm glad the entire family is financially stable enough that there will be no true financial suffering.  Adjustments perhaps, but no one in that household is going to go hungry.  

 

On the other hand, I am glad that the Duggars are currently off air and might be taken permanently off air.  I absolutely did not want it to happen the way it did.  I wish it could have been because Ma and Pa Duggar are so obviously despicable human beings who never should have been given a platform, let alone for nearly a decade.  I am glad that the dirty, nasty side of their belief system is finally being reported by the media because for years this same media ignored the Gothard cult of horror and instead 'reported' on how lovely and family-oriented these parents were and acted as though they were some sort of ideal model of family.  I'm upset that it has happened the way it did because no one wants the downfall of something to be based on something as horrible as sexual abuse.  But I'm also grateful that eyes are being opened because we should never have been rewarding and celebrating this family to begin with.  

[poopchute]

Anna is an absolute moron. If Josh really did confess this to her, like she says in the People statement, and she decided she still wanted to marry him and have children with him after he said "I molested five girls, four of my sisters, some while they were sleeping" then she is a fucking lunatic. What kind of person would marry someone after hearing that? So I have to assume that she couldn't have possibly really known that. It's too pathetic. So she's making this public statement that she knew and she's okay with it, which is so stupid and gross. If she stays with this man she is the stupidest person I've ever seen on television. And I watch Teen Mom so that's saying a lot. How can she stay with him and say "I love you" and let him put his disgusting penis inside of her ? I would throw up.

[AmandaPanda]

Well, the Duggars continue to draw us in.  People are posting like mad, all over the internet...... once TLC officially says bye-bye, some network is sure to want 'in' on the Duggars.  

I'm thinking that the E! Channel might eventually make them an offer they can't refuse, but then, the Kardashians  pretty much own E! and they would not allow it (I am not knocking the K's- I don't watch them, but at least 'they are who they are').

*Hallmark Channel?  Nah, the network is too wholesome.  

*UP?  Nah, the Bateses are already their mega family.

*TruTv?  Nah, the Duggars don't tell the truth.

*A & E (Arts & Entertainment)?  Nah, this network wouldn't want to hurt its reputation.

 

Just maybe......The BRAVO network????  Does anyone think there's a tv network out there that would film Josh after all of this?

Curious to know your thoughts.  Thanks. 

 

Bravo would never happen. Considering Andy Cohen is a major network executive and many people see Bravo as a gay lifestyle network, the Duggars would never go to them. In order to have any faith in humanity, I have to believe that they are network poison. However, I also know that humanity and network programming decisions rarely have anything to do with each other.

[zenme]

Bravo would never happen. Considering Andy Cohen is a major network executive and many people see Bravo as a gay lifestyle network, the Duggars would never go to them. In order to have any faith in humanity, I have to believe that they are network poison. However, I also know that humanity and network programming decisions rarely have anything to do with each other

 

The Duggars, and specifically Josh, have been a "Jackhole of the Week" once or twice on Andy's show. 

[Granny58]

I don't think he has a choice....I see the huge ressurection of Duggar Motors...but you know what it sad? They worship that family in that area and sadly...I think they will do well. I wish Anna would escape.

Yeah, he'll probably do the car thing again, or something low key.  But I don't find that sad.  He DOES have children that need support and Anna.  He won't be a big man around DC and will always have this history clinging to him.  So HE may be sad, but having a job to support his family isn't. 

[Wellfleet]

 

I'm not going to that blog anymore. That loathsome tool and his blind sycophants just piss me off.  Not to mention making anyone who may call themselves a Christian, no matter what their religion is, or how often they go to church, look like fucking idiots. 

 

Offering this from my Quotes journal. Don't remember where I first heard it. And I really wish I knew who actually said it, because it deserves to be acknowledged with more than an "anonymous" tag. But anyway. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car...

[fliptopbox]

Anna is an absolute moron. If Josh really did confess this to her, like she says in the People statement, and she decided she still wanted to marry him and have children with him after he said "I molested five girls, four of my sisters, some while they were sleeping" then she is a fucking lunatic. What kind of person would marry someone after hearing that? So I have to assume that she couldn't have possibly really known that. It's too pathetic. So she's making this public statement that she knew and she's okay with it, which is so stupid and gross. If she stays with this man she is the stupidest person I've ever seen on television. And I watch Teen Mom so that's saying a lot. How can she stay with him and say "I love you" and let him put his disgusting penis inside of her ? I would throw up.

I basically posted the same thought to a friend (Christian, of course) who was trying to defend Josh and his half-assed-admit-to-nothing apology. She came back at me with some lame-ass "she's his WIFE don't you DARE judge her for marrying him!!!"

 

But yeah, completely agree. Even if Anna was ok with whatever he told her I would imagine her parents would not be. What father would want his daughter married to an admitted incestual child molester?!

[Granny58]

"So that's how it happens - you get a kid who's a "bad seed" and parent/parents who are blind to it, crazy, or directed by some trumped-up cult of patriarchal, misogynistic bullshit and the whole world turns upside-down. The fact the the girls had NO ONE, neither father nor mother, nor grandma, either, apparently, is just so heartbreaking it makes me physically ill. All the feelings of loneliness, betrayal, and probably the constant, unending fear that Josh would just keep moving down the line age-wise with the other girls must have made those poor girls feel like they'd been abandoned by the very God they'd been raised to love and obey."

 

That's a good way to put it, Josh as a bad seed.  He sure seems to have been, but in a NORMAL environment he would have been the bad boy at high school.  He would have fondled girls on dates (or even had multiple sexual experiences)...and dated PLENTY.  But his upbringing kept him cloistered.  I'm not excusing his behavior, or discounting the bad seed, but I put equal blame on his parents for inflicting this lifestyle on their brood, ESPECIALLY since mommy dearest didn't actually raise them!!!!   Pop them out and hand them over.  Seriously, if there any feat to raising 19 kids if you're not doing the actual raising?  YES YES YES, Josh did the wrong, evil thing and there's no disagreement, but it is extremely important, IMHO, to remember the warped way he was raised.  

[Julia]

As much as I loathe Josh, MEE-chelle and Jim Bob, I can't be gleeful because of his sisters and his children, and how this affected, and will continue to affect, them.  Does this make sense?

 

I'm not seeing a lot of glee, although it's the internet and someone out there is going to express glee over anyone's downfall, if only to upset people who sympathize.

 

For my part, I don't sympathize particularly with those three (I guess people get that). What I do think is that as a spiritual influence, in biblical terms Jim Bob, his spiritual leaders, MIchelle and Josh "sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." Where of course by men, I mean women.

 

I seem to recall that one of the few things the Christian bible records that Jesus had to say dealt with hypocrisy and iniquity in that context. If nothing more comes of this than three bad actors who built their whited sepulchre with TV money have to live off their investments now, I'm hard pressed to see that this is affecting them more than they deserve.

 

More importantly, though, they won't be able to use a decade of lies about their lives to put more young women in harm's way, and  that, I have to say, I feel a certain grim satisfaction about.

[RazzleberryPie]

I'm not gleeful. I'm disappointed and disgusted. As a person of faith, I hate it when those of us who aren't so extreme and hateful - whether Protestant, Catholic, LDS, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, ANY person of faith - get lumped in with the crazies and the hypocrites. But, the more holy, smug and know it all a person seems to be, the harder they fall. I also hate to see all of the people who refuse to believe the Duggars, or anyone else, could do any wrong, simply for the fact that they say they're family-values Christians. It's just a big mess,and it does erode a person's testimony or ministry.

 

The only good thing to come from this, is that it exposes some of the cultish factors of Gothard's teaching instead of sugar coating it. 

 

I really thought the Duggar's 'downfall' would be some sort of embezzlement or fraud, or the 'scandal' would be one of the kids having consensual sex before marriage, being gay, being a Democrat, etc., not incest and molestation.  *Side note* Josh's $14k in back taxes hasn't really been mentioned anywhere.

[NextIteration]

I actually do feel real pity for Josh. Because he lived not only in an environment that no doubt took something that might only have been a little warped and twisted it harder within him, but then pretty much refused to get him real help for it once they found out.

 

I could possibly stretch myself to have some empathy for Josh being brought up in a horrible environment that contributed to, no actually justified whatever entitlement he must have felt to sexually abuse his younger siblings and house guest if he didn't grow up to be a representative for a categorically defined hate group and spew garbage about people that he implies are a danger to children.

 

If he were a 15 year old African American teen, he would have been locked up at hello with that police report, no fucks would have been given to sketchy applications of statutes of limitations.  Think long and hard about this.

 

Minneapolis, Xfinity - GONE from OnDemand, praise baby jeebus!

[arrowhead]

the victim worked through their abuse in their own time, when it was suitable for them, and that it was not a one off, you are fixed now, get on with your life deal, and this was being recognised by people who are experts in this area

Thanks for pointing this out. I see  a lot of replies everywhere about the counseling they did or did not have and people also talk about therapy as if it's the panacea of  resolving everything. I too have told people to seek professional help at times. But the two times I reached points where I followed my own advice, have not been very successful (couple different circumstances and few therapists). What they offered, although I tried,  was to me very off and ineffective later from what may have helped me. Eventually I crawled out and worked myself through and I can say I'm good today but don't look at the therapy as a great or even helpful experience. Perhaps others have better stories, I'd be curious. To me it feels almost like something we say to family, friend, people to take it off our mind when we feel powerless to help, but I still have to see some great result example related to counseling. 

 

So I agree with you about the forced instantaneous forgiveness approach but I also am not sure about any imposed therapy either. There's just no perfect answer... Now that they are grown, I hope the girls each finds her way to resolve and feel at peace about themselves, be it through therapy, focus on life or what ever works. I do agree that right now they may feel very uneasy and re-victimized by the attention, but let's hope that the shedding of light and pouring of support help more than it hurts.

Edited May 25, 2015 by arrowhead

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I feel like the timing of Josh's admission was an attempt to ward off a much bigger story.  Even TLC was surprised at the timing of the apology when they were airing a marathon of episodes.  Why now?  It is like The Duggars circled their wagons because something else was about to blow and they are trying to throw the public or someone a bone.  Now there is a possible 6th victim while Jim Bob was campaigning, is that one of the extra girls in that photo that no one knew?  The pieces aren't fitting.  

Edited May 25, 2015 by Foghorn Leghorn

[andromeda331]

I don't think being raised sexually repressed, socially isolated and religiously fundamentalist caused Josh to do what he did but I do think having that patriarchal crown on his head as the favored prince of the family was a big part of it.

 

 

This is my feeling too. I think he knew exactly what he was doing was wrong but he thought he could get away with it. Which he essentially has. If he had shown any remorse in the last ten years then I'd buy that his family's lifestyle caused it. But he's spent the ten years being smug and thinking superior to anyone around him. If he tried to be a better brother or try to make it easier on his sisters to be around him or even realize how hard it was for them to be around him. I might believe it, but he didn't. Not only that he continued to make jokes and comments to his sisters regarding purity and sex. He complained that Jill got a big house. He complained that Jessa got a new remodel. He didn't like Jill because she's a snitch. Of course he doesn't. She's the one who told on him and ruined his fun. He couldn't think of anything nice to say about Jessa. But he wanted to know all about her first kiss. I think

he's happy in Gothardism, because he gets to be raised up, praised and fawned over like he thinks he's entitled to.

[WalrusGirl]

I don't know what you mean about "released to them illegally." According to news reports, the Springdale police chief consulted the city attorney about the state FOI law request, and a redacted copy of the report was released based on the city attorney's advice. I have quite a bit of experience with this kind of thing, although not in Arkansas. But I'm sure that if the record is released as required under a state FOI law (also known in many states as an "open records act"), there is nothing "illegal" about its further distribution.

After the redacted version of the report was released, a judge ordered the entire record destroyed. That doesn't render existing copies of the redacted report "illegal."

I didn't see reference in the linked article about the police chief consulting with a city attorney before releasing the records, but I hope that happened and it's a relief if it did!

I was referring to multiple mentions I've come across - a few here, a few elsewhere - that investigations and police reports such as this one (all minors/sexual abuse of minors/etc) are exempt from FOIA requests, meaning that they were improperly released to ITW and whoever did so had (likely unintentionally) actually committed a misdemeanor.

Whether that's really the case in Arkansas I have no idea, though I'd certainly like for it to be illegal to release reports like that where most of the victims (minor especially, but in general) are super-easily identified. (Ideally there would be some legal balance between protecting minors and FOIA requests - Josh's name was also redacted because he was a minor, so the least they could have done while complying with the request, if the report was subject to the FOIA, was redact additional victim details like their parents' names so it wasn't obvious that most of the narratives referred to his siblings. There wasn't the identity ambiguity of even, say, 1/5 sisters being involved, when I still think their parents' names should be redacted along with their own.)

Anyway, that's why I qualified it as "sounds like was released to ITW illegally." :-) If a city attorney was consulted prior to release and the release was definitely what the law required, then yay. (Though, you know, boo for laws protecting victims.)

[hathorlive]

I wonder if ATI would continue supporting the Duggars if a well meaning protest group showed up with signs that read "incests not best" and "duggars are buggers".  Anything that might make a passel of home schooling families have to explain things to their broods?  I think now would be a great time for the rainbow army to show up and make things very uncomfortable for the hypocrits.  I would love to show up, but alas, I do not live within 500 miles of Nashville.  Thank god, lol.

 

I think the timing of the confession was just the nature of the news cycle.  I have a feeling that someone started researching the allegations, reached out to the family for their side of the story, which alerted the Duggars that it was coming, which moved the parents to get the police report destroyed, not realizing that the redacted report was just as damning.  I also think the person who did the redacting purposefully left the part about living with their parents in so everyone would catch the incest angle.

 

We all need to hammer any sponsers that sign on to support any show on any network.  I hope the entire family ends up selling tatertot casserole out of the bus just to make ends meet.

Edited May 25, 2015 by hathorlive

[bencr]

I read a report somewhere that TLC is considering continuing this show without Josh. That does not suffice for me. I think the parents have to go as well.

 

To me, the villains of this story are Josh's parents and, secondarily, the community of adult clergy and law enforcement that let down Josh and his victims. The parents and other adults are the ones who failed to provide Josh and his victims with the counsel and therapy that might have prevented the ongoing molestations and might have helped the victims somehow come to terms with what happened to them. The fact that the Duggar parents failed to provide adequate support based on their religious and familial beliefs is further reason why I do not think they should have this platform.

 

I don't like the idea that TLC provides a platform that enables bigoted people like JB and M Duggar to espouse their views and values to the public at large. I can't help but think of the gay children and children with uncertain sexual identities who live in households where this program is watched by a parent and viewed aspirationally.

 

Based on these considerations, if TLC/Discovery wants to keep me as a viewer, they will have to get rid of both Josh and his parents.

Edited May 25, 2015 by bencr

[NextIteration]

I live in Australia where there is a continuing Royal Commission into Child Sex Abuse. Its focus is on abuse that has occurred in all sorts of institutions including churches, schools, youth groups, sports groups, all sorts of places, and the scope is ever widening. It is moving from state to state and calls for all types of peoples to give their testimony including victims, family, staff and members of the various institutions etc. The time frame for delivery of the report has also been extended as the ever widening range of involvement emerges. I give this as background for what I heard today that struck me as relevant to this situation.

A psychiatrist was giving evidence regarding the impact of abuse on the victim. She had 20+ years experience in this field and is considered an expert. She said they there is no single way a victim responds to abuse. Each victim responds in their own way and in their own time. And while they may be OK and able to cope for many years, they can have reactions years later and these may be single or multiple occurrences. Because each victim responds in their own way and own time it is only recently that they have recognised that what manifests as depression or anxiety or substance abuse or whatever is not what needs to to be dealt with. It is the abuse itself. The other things are offshoots of the abuse. Of course she said it more coherently than that, and I apologise for any misunderstanding on my part.

But what really struck me was that the victim worked through their abuse in their own time, when it was suitable for them, and that it was not a one off, you are fixed now, get on with your life deal, and this was being recognised by people who are experts in this area, who work with sex abuse victims all the time. The idea that the abuser says sorry, the victim say OK, all better now, does just not happen. The victim is not all better until they say so. And it may not be permanent, or all better either.

Putting this into a Duggar context, I now see the enforced forgiveness of the victim of their abuser, because the abuser has said sorry under the Gothard system, as a further form of abuse. Time has been denied and the abuser has set the forgiveness timetable to suit them. They are bullied into forgiveness on pain of being unChristian and sinning by withholding their forgiveness. The victim may not even be able to understand what they are forgiving if they have not responded, reacted to or even understood what has happened to them. And as has been shown to be the case many times, even though a child may know what has happened to them is wrong, there are so many who do not really understand actually what has occurred until later, sometimes a lot later. How can forgiveness be given if there is no true understanding of what has happened? How can a child forgive when they cannot understand the full impact of the abuse on themselves?

I was not a victim of sex abuse as a child, but I was in an abusive relationship as an adult. And 35 years later, things still come up that take me by surprise. It can be anything. And my response can range from blowing raspberry and moving on to full on physical, emotional and anxiety reactions. And it took me a long while to realise what was happening. And actually, it took me a long time to realise that it actually had been an abusive relationship.

I empathise with the young ladies here who may not actually realise the full extent of what has happened to them. I hope and pray that proper help is there for them when they need it. And that they are given their own time and that their responses are respected as their own, and legitimate whatever they may be.

 

This is a big quote.  The UK just came out with numbers from their Operation Hydrant as well; I think everything that spilled out about Jimmy Saville brought about the study.

 

About everything else in this post.  Yes.  All of this.  For me, it was years before I understood the whole enchilada of my chronic PTSD due to childhood sexual abuse.  And sadly, mine is chronic because of the repetitive nature of it and exposure to my abuser in situations that I couldn't control or get away from but had to maintain myself sensibly - and the added blow by my abuser's grandchildren that would call me out on the street calling me terrible names and I would never know when that might happen or who I might be with for years after.

 

When I think about these girls, and the little control they have/had in this situation and the repetition of exposure to their abuser without having any buffer, it makes me cry.

 

To this day, I startle if anyone comes up behind me and surprises me and this didn't even start until decades after my abuse, I startle at loud noises, I just startle really easily and it's really hard to explain to people, and I really never know how I'll react.  I might handle it with humor or I might have a mild freakout or I might get mad.  I work really hard at my  hypervigilance but it's an ongoing battle.

 

Anyways, I'm not sharing this for any other reason but to express how pissed I am at the powerlessness and the grooming these girls have and continue to go through.

 

So yeah, there's no glee here even though I would have seen Josh and his parent's taken down because of my political beliefs had this never happened.

Edited May 25, 2015 by NextIteration

[JoanArc]

So now it looks like Erin Merryn, a prominent and vocal childhood sex abuse survivor, came to the compound last year. She got the Duggars to support her move for a law that provides kids in school with some kind of mandatory education about preventing sex abuse (Like DARE, but for molestation). Her twitter says she had no idea of what was going on. I am so sad and angry that a good, trusted person like her was so close to potential victims and couldn't help them. FWIW Erin seems to be a stand-up woman and not a Duggar-level snake. I'm really heartbroken. I going outside for awhile. This whole thing has me sick with so many emotions.

 

Edit: The Duggars even wrote the forward to one of her books. HOW DARE Jim Bob and Michelle. My blood pressure....

Edited May 25, 2015 by JoanArc

[SopranoKris]

Just checked OnDemand.  All Duggar episodes were available yesterday, but today (Memorial Day), they are now gone.

 

I did get a chance to watch the interview special.  Knowing what we know now made it all the more strange to watch.  I kept looking at the girls' reactions to things Josh said.  Kinda gave me the creeps.

 

I certainly hope that the victims will be able to get some proper counseling after this.  I can't imagine how it must have felt to go through the filming of the series.  Seeing Josh featured so prominently and hailed as "the good son".  It just sickens me to know that all this was swept under the rug before the series even started.  UGH!

[ladle]

Posters keep mentioning that the victims never received counseling, but is that true?  Based on one of Alice's original comments from 2007 (which have turned out to be accurate in other respects), "The family is to report to DHS every six months and that the girls are in counciling. This is what the courts ordered."  If it's true that the court mandated counseling (which-- can it even do for victims?  I have no idea), then I assume it would have to be legit, accredited counseling and not "counseling" received through their "church"?  Am I right?  I hope I'm right.

[anneofcleves]

I don't believe the situation is so black & white. The parents didn't make the best decisions, but probably the best that they knew. As for a "cover-up", I think those words are too strong; they kept something that is private, private. Josh may be a stupid kid who grew into a self-righteous man, or worse he may be a predator, but we don't know if he is a predator. I hope for all involved that he was a mixed up kid. I wish no ill will for anyone involved and hope that they can turn this into a time of self-reflection and healing.

I agree with you about not knowing whether Josh is any sort of predator and continuing threat to his children and others and sincerely hope that is not the case for all involved.  My hope, too, is that he was a mixed up kid who was completely unprepared for ways to handle his developing sexuality and had absolutely no real world guidance from his oblivious parents, or other trusted adults,  in how to manage his impulses.  In either scenario, it's tragic that his sisters, and possibly others, had to become victims.  

 

I do disagree however about covering things up and feel that Jim Bob and Michelle painted a pretty, if not warped, veneer on the picture of their family, sold it to TLC, and have been cashing in ever since.  The skeletons were bound to come out.  Jim Bob is no fool and knows how to effectively use the media.  He was simply too arrogant to think that one day the media would discover the tragic secret.

 

In my heart of hearts, I want Anna to rise up, take those kids, and leave it all behind, but I doubt she (or any of the Duggar girls) would ever have the ability to imagine that there is or was anything really wrong, let alone be able to comprehend life without the controlling influence of Jim Bob and Josh. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by anneofcleves

[Cherrio]

Bravo would never happen. Considering Andy Cohen is a major network executive and many people see Bravo as a gay lifestyle network, the Duggars would never go to them. In order to have any faith in humanity, I have to believe that they are network poison. However, I also know that humanity and network programming decisions rarely have anything to do with each other.

This is the second time today I am thinking of The Godfather.   Josh as Hyman Roth has nowhere to go.   So, Josh rides around in the stink bus from state to state being rejected at each stop.      Networks?   They are finished.     Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this make the third time that TLC has had a major scandal?

[humbleopinion]

NBC's Erica Hill should be cringing as she watches herself gush all over the Duggars in that episode.

Way to shed unfavorable light on your network again, NBC.

 

TLC, do the right thing and cancel all things Duggar.

Don't continue to make money off the back of the Duggar victims or you are as bad as their parents.

[3 is enough]

 

My hope, too, is that he was a mixed up kid who was completely unprepared for ways to handle his developing sexuality and had absolutely no real world guidance from his oblivious parents, or other trusted adults,  in how to manage his impulses.

At first I thought that too, but one of his victims was 4 or 5. That is a totally different scenario.

[CofCinci]

NBC's Erica Hill should be cringing as she watches herself gush all over the Duggars in that episode.

Way to shed unfavorable light on your network again, NBC.

Sadly, the Duggar abuse scandal is the best thing to happen to her career. Tomorrow she'll have the spotlight on Today as the in-house Duggar expert. She probably spent the weekend on the phone with her agent figuring how to exploit the situation for her gain.

[SadForTheJSlaves]

I feel like the timing of Josh's admission was an attempt to ward off a much bigger story.  Even TLC was surprised at the timing of the apology when they were airing a marathon of episodes.  Why now?  It is like The Duggars circled their wagons because something else was about to blow and they are trying to throw the public or someone a bone.  Now there is a possible 6th victim while Jim Bob was campaigning, is that one of the extra girls in that photo that no one knew?  The pieces aren't fitting.  

 

This was my understanding:

 

The original commenter only said that there were 'sexual sins' during the campaign. I therefore didn't take that to necessarily mean molesting another girl. It could be any number of things, ranging from masturbation to looking at 'inappropriate' things on the Internet. In fact, wasn't it mentioned by 'Alice' that Josh confessed to watching pornography?

[humbleopinion]

Thanks, for the heads up.

Erica Hill  is the new worst person at NBC News, move over Brian Williams.

Social media should flame her revictimization of the Duggar girls.

 Tom Brokaw must be skeeved about the direction of "journalism "at NBC.

[WalrusGirl]

I feel like the timing of Josh's admission was an attempt to ward off a much bigger story. Even TLC was surprised at the timing of the apology when they were airing a marathon of episodes.

I was also really surprised by how quickly he vaguely admitted it publicly and resigned too. It was really quick. But like others have said, the family probably knew it was coming (had been reached out to for comment, etc), and he knew there were substantive documents in existence, not just rumors. (And I didn't get home until late on Thursday, so I got the police report/siblings/resignation and public statement all at once, but from the timing, did he hold his statement until after the report was out? When you know the report exists, is out, and is damning, recognizing what's happened promptly is the best option. Especially when the long weekend was right there - try to shut it down and get the news cycle over it by the next week.)

And, in a way, I have some degree of respect (at this stage) for his not denying for weeks first before only coming clean publicly when that failed. (He probably, objectively, avoided further harm to his victims by confessing back in 2002 and 2003 - at least one friend of mine found her mother's not believing her much more traumatic long-term than the abuse. Without a confession, parents and family members tend to default much deeper into denial, and that isn't malicious or criminal but has its own awful effect on the victim.) I've been hoping that his propensity to come clean - both eventually telling on himself, twice, at the time and now - is at least a good sign in terms of his dedication to avoiding further abuse. It does seem atypical, and I know we're all sincerely hoping he's reformed as an adult (and the ongoing nature of it at the time, and the probable large age difference with one, is much more concerning in that respect, so I'm happy to have anything to balance that out), so...fingers crossed.

Edited May 25, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[GEML]

Unless Erica Hill knew for certain, I can't see that she's responsible. Did anyone send her an email? She did a puff piece. I don't see that she has much to do with this, really.