The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

[ginger90]

6 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

So did Jim Bob and Michelle post any birthday wishes?

None that I have seen.

[Tasya]

She does look exactly like her grandmother. I think this Duggar grand will be the envy of all of her female cousins. She's going to be raised very mainstream conservative christian (yes they do exist). I think we have to think of her as a future Marjorie. 

[Churchhoney]

On the other hand, despite clearly having some nice human qualities, Felicity's paternal grandfather also aggressively preaches a keep-women-in-their-[lower]-place theological misogyny.

And Felicity's father has deliberately gone all out to loudly, publicly and enthusiastically embrace a guru and school that steadfastly bar women from coming within a thousand miles of any positions of influence or thought and to proudly be one of the topline signers of the guru's public letter condemning as un-Christian anyone who argues that sexism and racism are prevalent in our society, including churches, or have damaged people in any significant way. 

And when people talk about all the fabulous steps that Jingle has taken toward being her own woman .... it seems to be 100--percent about her doing things like wearing tight jeans and sleeveless blouses and dyeing her hair blonde. But despite Jim Bob's apparent preference for long curly hair and skirts, none of those things really flies in the face of the preferences of many men, even many Christian conservatives, as far as I've seen. So even if those changes have been spurred entirely by Jingle's own preferences, I doubt they represent any actual challenging of what Jer likes in his woman. So my guess is that no threat has been posed to his position or any of his ideas. 

I think the jury's out on whether Felicity would get applause or a sit-down-and-shut-up if she actually aspired to do, say or be anything that didn't comport with the men's view of what makes a woman ornamental and desirable or that might threaten men's total hold on the real power and influence in their patriarchal culture. 

I'd like to think that they'll naturally move in a more moderate direction in substance as well as style. But all I see currently is a style change. 

In addition to Jer's love affair with MacArthur -- who's been doubling down on his patriarchal stances the whole time Jer's been kissing his ass -- the BFF status Jer awarded Cade doesn't give me hope.

Fiance Gabby wears tight jeans and dyes her hair blonde. But that's making her anything but her own woman. According to Jer's BFF, nothing else that Gabby or any other woman could possibly do in a lifetime would be as significant and as important to God in deeming her a good person as the self-denial she practices in putting service to Cade first among her priorities. (And I've seen nothing at all about the importance of a husband's service to a wife...)  I don't for one minute think Jer overlooked this belief and emphasis when he awarded Cade BFF status. 

That said, I definitely hope that they do let Felicity choose her own directions in life, whatever they may be. But everything I've seen these men and their buddies preach says that, while men can aspire to pretty much anything, women's aspirations have to stay within a very narrow sphere.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Churchhoney

[dargosmydaddy]

All very true. I think the possibilities that Felicity might get a real education (probably even college!), maybe get to play team sports, and have an actual career (since Jeremy's mother and sister do) are definitely steps up from her cousins, but many other aspects of her upbringing will not be cause for celebration. However, she will also presumably get the opportunity to meet and mingle with more people away from the Duggar compound... if Felicity ever gets an inkling to "free" herself, she'll probably have more options than Jinger ever did. Baby steps...

Edited July 22, 2019 by dargosmydaddy

[Churchhoney]

5 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

All very true. I think the possibilities that Felicity might get a real education (probably even college!), maybe get to play team sports, and have an actual career (since Jeremy's mother and sister do) are definitely steps up from her cousins, but many other aspects of her upbringing will not be cause for celebration. However, she will also presumably get the opportunity to meet and mingle with more people away from the Duggar compound... if Felicity ever gets an inkling to "free" herself, she'll probably have more options than Jinger ever did. Baby steps...

I agree.

Of course, at that rate women will finally be considered men's equals around the year 3500 or so. 😀 

[Suzn]

50 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

On the other hand, despite clearly having some nice human qualities, Felicity's paternal grandfather also aggressively preaches a keep-women-in-their-[lower]-place theological misogyny.

And Felicity's father has deliberately gone all out to loudly, publicly and enthusiastically embrace a guru and school that steadfastly bar women from coming within a thousand miles of any positions of influence or thought and to proudly be one of the topline signers of the guru's public letter condemning as un-Christian anyone who argues that sexism and racism are prevalent in our society, including churches, or have damaged people in any significant way. 

And when people talk about all the fabulous steps that Jingle has taken toward being her own woman .... it seems to be 100--percent about her doing things like wearing tight jeans and sleeveless blouses and dyeing her hair blonde. But despite Jim Bob's apparent preference for long curly hair and skirts, none of those things really flies in the face of the preferences of many men, even many Christian conservatives, as far as I've seen. So even if those changes have been spurred entirely by Jingle's own preferences, I doubt they represent any actual challenging of what Jer likes in his woman. So my guess is that no threat has been posed to his position or any of his ideas. 

I think the jury's out on whether Felicity would get applause or a sit-down-and-shut-up if she actually aspired to do, say or be anything that didn't comport with the men's view of what makes a woman ornamental and desirable or that might threaten men's total hold on the real power and influence in their patriarchal culture. 

I'd like to think that they'll naturally move in a more moderate direction in substance as well as style. But all I see currently is a style change. 

In addition to Jer's love affair with MacArthur -- who's been doubling down on his patriarchal stances the whole time Jer's been kissing his ass -- the BFF status Jer awarded Cade doesn't give me hope.

Fiance Gabby wears tight jeans and dyes her hair blonde. But that's making her anything but her own woman. According to Jer's BFF, nothing else that Gabby or any other woman could possibly do in a lifetime would be as significant and as important to God in deeming her a good person as the self-denial she practices in putting service to Cade first among her priorities. (And I've seen nothing at all about the importance of a husband's service to a wife...)  I don't for one minute think Jer overlooked this belief and emphasis when he awarded Cade BFF status. 

That said, I definitely hope that they do let Felicity choose her own directions in life, whatever they may be. But everything I've seen these men and their buddies preach says that, while men can aspire to pretty much anything, women's aspirations have to stay within a very narrow sphere.

I don't understand their position on women.  What's more, there is nothing outward about the way they appear to live that is obviously suppressing women and yet clearly their words say that they are.  I see both father and grandfather doting on Felicity and can't begin to understand what they really feel for her.

I do think Jinger is the best off of the girls.  Yes, so much is superficial stuff that she can dress differently and do her hair differently than she was raised, but it looks to go beyond that at least a bit.  None of use can know if she is actively suppressed, much less how she really feels about it.

Is someone a prisoner if they don't think they are?

46 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I agree.

Of course, at that rate women will finally be considered men's equals around the year 3500 or so. 😀 

I don't know whether this needs the sad or laughing face...

[Churchhoney]

29 minutes ago, Suzn said:

Is someone a prisoner if they don't think they are?

Well, based on my own experience of some family members who woke up to their imprisoned status late in life -- in one case in the person's 80s, in fact -- yes. Quite possibly.

And if you end up re-evaluating decades of imprisoning things that you never noticed, or never allowed yourself to notice, it can change your whole concept of the life you've lived and the people you've lived it with. And it can give rise to one of the worst things in the world -- regrets that you're pretty powerless to do anything about after a lot of time has passed.

This certainly doesn't happen to everyone who's in thrall to some power monger. But it does happen. 

And, of course, even if it doesn't, the true talents and possibilities of imprisoned people never get to flourish or help change the world or the family or the individual themselves for the better.

The imprisoned person does nothing but bolster the power of the current-day other-squelching powers-that-be and embolden and strengthen those powers to be even more of a curb on other people......And while the powers-that-be think that's the ideal situation, I can't think of a time or place in human history when that was ever a good thing for humanity in general. 

So even if you yourself never notice that you're imprisoned, it's likely that your imprisonment is a detriment to something or someone, somewhere sometime, in my opinion. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Suzn]

3 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, based on my own experience of some family members who woke up to their imprisoned status late in life -- in one case in the person's 80s, in fact -- yes. Quite possibly.

And if you end up re-evaluating decades of imprisoning things that you never noticed, or never allowed yourself to notice, it can change your whole concept of the life you've lived and the people you've lived it with. And it can give rise to one of the worst things in the world -- regrets that you're pretty powerless to do anything about after a lot of time has passed.

This certainly doesn't happen to everyone who's in thrall to some power monger. But it does happen. 

And, of course, even if it doesn't, the true talents and possibilities of imprisoned people never get to flourish or help change the world or the family or the individual themselves for the better.

The imprisoned person does nothing but bolster the power of the current-day other-squelching powers-that-be and embolden and strengthen those powers to be even more of a curb on other people......And while the powers-that-be usually think that's the ideal situation, I can't think of a time or place in human history when that was ever a good thing for humanity in general. 

So even if you yourself never notice that you're imprisoned, it's likely that your imprisonment is a detriment to something or someone, somewhere sometime, in my opinion. 

I don't disagree with you, but it is an interesting conundrum to me.  So, I go through years of life thinking I'm happy and find out that it was that I didn't know any better - ignorance , delusion.  Can any of us believe  that what we think of our lives is "real"?

[lookeyloo]

1 minute ago, Suzn said:

I don't disagree with you, but it is an interesting conundrum to me.  So, I go through years of life thinking I'm happy and find out that it was that I didn't know any better - ignorance , delusion.  Can any of us believe  that what we think of our lives is "real"?

My conundrum too.  If I think I am happy, isn't that enough?  Until and unless something changes?  I (or anyone) might go through their entire life "thinking" they are happy, and someone else might be saying "poor lookeyloo, sad, she is blah, blah, and could be having a better life if she were to break free".   We do this a lot about Jana.  Maybe Jana isn't as miserable as we think she is, although as Churchhoney has pointed out, it takes a real lot of gumption to break out. maybe Jana has accepted her lot in life, not enough gumption.  Or, maybe she is fine.  Hard to know.

[Oldernowiser]

Interesting discussion...

To me, it’s a question of having the ability to make choices for one’s life and being conscious that the power of choice exists.

If the Duggar spawn had been actually educated and free to explore all of the world’s possibilities and then STILL chose this life, so be it.

But that didn’t happen and so far, none of them have had the spirit or intelligence to seek it out for themselves. Yes, some change is being seen because of some of the headships. But what if Jinger had ever been able to decide on her own whether she wanted to be married and a mother at a relatively young age? 

The Duggar children were deliberately programmed into one narrow path and exploited for money simultaneously. What happens if that path closes? What awareness of other options do they have? Will they still be “happy”?

[Christina87]

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

On the other hand, despite clearly having some nice human qualities, Felicity's paternal grandfather also aggressively preaches a keep-women-in-their-[lower]-place theological misogyny.

And Felicity's father has deliberately gone all out to loudly, publicly and enthusiastically embrace a guru and school that steadfastly bar women from coming within a thousand miles of any positions of influence or thought and to proudly be one of the topline signers of the guru's public letter condemning as un-Christian anyone who argues that sexism and racism are prevalent in our society, including churches, or have damaged people in any significant way. 

And when people talk about all the fabulous steps that Jingle has taken toward being her own woman .... it seems to be 100--percent about her doing things like wearing tight jeans and sleeveless blouses and dyeing her hair blonde. But despite Jim Bob's apparent preference for long curly hair and skirts, none of those things really flies in the face of the preferences of many men, even many Christian conservatives, as far as I've seen. So even if those changes have been spurred entirely by Jingle's own preferences, I doubt they represent any actual challenging of what Jer likes in his woman. So my guess is that no threat has been posed to his position or any of his ideas. 

I think the jury's out on whether Felicity would get applause or a sit-down-and-shut-up if she actually aspired to do, say or be anything that didn't comport with the men's view of what makes a woman ornamental and desirable or that might threaten men's total hold on the real power and influence in their patriarchal culture. 

I'd like to think that they'll naturally move in a more moderate direction in substance as well as style. But all I see currently is a style change. 

In addition to Jer's love affair with MacArthur -- who's been doubling down on his patriarchal stances the whole time Jer's been kissing his ass -- the BFF status Jer awarded Cade doesn't give me hope.

Fiance Gabby wears tight jeans and dyes her hair blonde. But that's making her anything but her own woman. According to Jer's BFF, nothing else that Gabby or any other woman could possibly do in a lifetime would be as significant and as important to God in deeming her a good person as the self-denial she practices in putting service to Cade first among her priorities. (And I've seen nothing at all about the importance of a husband's service to a wife...)  I don't for one minute think Jer overlooked this belief and emphasis when he awarded Cade BFF status. 

That said, I definitely hope that they do let Felicity choose her own directions in life, whatever they may be. But everything I've seen these men and their buddies preach says that, while men can aspire to pretty much anything, women's aspirations have to stay within a very narrow sphere.

I agree with all this! And we know Jeremy doesn't have a problem with Jinger wearing pants. He said something right after they started courting like, "I love that Jinger wears dresses, but I'd be happy if she wore pants, too." We've known his views on this from the very beginning. I'm sure Jeremy truly doesn't care what she wears (as long as it's modest), and knew he would win brownie points with the fans by making that view known. I do wonder, though: what would happen if Jinger wanted to wear a crop top, or get a nose ring? What if she wanted to stop exercising, eat a lot, and gain weight? I do believe that Jeremy is encouraging / forcing Jinger to stay thin. I think Jinger is on board with the diet, but not necessarily the exercise, since she didn't grow up exercising...but I digresss. 

[Churchhoney]

In my opinion, "happy" is a "compared to what" thing. 

We're programmed to make the best of whatever situation we're in in order to survive in it. So most of us do that.

And when you're doing that, you can look quite "happy" to the world (and even to yourself, to varying degrees, depending on your personality, I think) when you're really just making the best of a very bad situation. And when you've never experienced any of the things that you might later find truly make you happy.

And when you accept as normal quite horrible, imprisoning things -- because you've never seen or experienced anything better so you don't know that anything else exists. Or you've been taught that any other way of living is a bad, dangerous thing that you have to shun or get into horrible danger or go to hell or whatever.

My family member who figured out in her 80s that she'd been treated worse than shit by a couple of people she'd given her allegiance and love to until they died was described with the following tagline in her senior high-school yearbook:  " So lucky! If only all our spirits could be so happy and serene."  (Yes -- this is the kind of thing a high-school yearbook staff wrote in the 1930s!) 

She smiled and didn't complain. Complaining and not smiling weren't permitted. But everybody saw the smiles and heard no complaining, so their minds went right to "Happy!" "Serene!" "Lucky!"

I helped push her toward understanding what had really happened because of the way I complained about my own quite similar experience -- and a large part of me thinks that I did a lousy thing by doing that. (However, she didn't really believe me when I bitched about such things -- she tried her best to just write me off as a grump!)  

What finally pushed her over the edge was that, as an elderly woman, for the first time she made some friends who talked a lot together about their lives. And they all expressed horror at things she described that she had always told herself were perfectly normal and fine. It was like a bright light had suddenly come on. LIke Helen Keller with her hand under the pump -- "Wa....wa....water!" And in this case, I can't decide if it was a good thing or a bad thing.

But I agree that it's perfectly possible to go through life imprisoned and never know it. And that way you can figure you're happy, even  if your happiness isn't something a lot of other people would recognize.

In a way, that's my wish for the Duggarlings .... because who wants regrets?

At the same time, though, I hope they raise their kids differently.....

And they probably will, to some extent, anyway. They were sucked into this lifestyle. They didn't choose it. So that almost certainly means that few of them will have enough energy to promote and enforce it the way their parents -- first-generation zealots -- did. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Churchhoney

[lookeyloo]

1 minute ago, Oldernowiser said:

Interesting discussion...

To me, it’s a question of having the ability to make choices for one’s life and being conscious that the power of choice exists.

If the Duggar spawn had been actually educated and free to explore all of the world’s possibilities and then STILL chose this life, so be it.

But that didn’t happen and so far, none of them have had the spirit or intelligence to seek it out for themselves. Yes, some change is being seen because of some of the headships. But what if Jinger had ever been able to decide on her own whether she wanted to be married and a mother at a relatively young age? 

The Duggar children were deliberately programmed into one narrow path and exploited for money simultaneously. What happens if that path closes? What awareness of other options do they have? Will they still be “happy”?

No arguments with what you said.  I was born in 1944.  My choices presented to me were "marry a doctor, if possible, maybe go to college and be a teacher and get tenure so you can stay home with your children, maybe be a secretary/bookkeeper".  With everyone mostly given those same choices, it was easy to fall into that.  I did marry the doctor, became a secretary, and stayed home with my children...until the first Mr. lookeyloo ditched me on our 11th anniversary.  Oy vey, totally unprepared.  Long miserable story short, we were living near a university that had a special program for adult students and a friend literally came to my house and took me to register.  That and my therapist is where I learned about personal power.  And, I wasn't at all unhappy with my first life.  Really.  I loved him, loved staying at home with my children, doing all the "wifey" things.  But, I was forced to grow and develop by circumstances.  I am happy now too, with my MSW, although retired, the second Mr. lookeyloo and the life I have now.  Who knows if the first Mr. lookeyloo didn't ditch me, and we stayed married, would I have stayed happy?  He didn't inhibit me as far as doing anything, though.  So hard to know.

PS I tell all young women whose paths I cross that they need to be prepared to take care of themselves, because one doesn't know what curves life will throw.  I was a good example of that.

[TresGatos]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 5:08 PM, jcbrown said:

I think those are much less weird-looking than the phallic bunny. I kind of like the little one.

The deer has a rabbit on its head (I'll grab the handbasket on my way out).

[Suzn]

43 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

In my opinion, "happy" is a "compared to what" thing. 

We're programmed to make the best of whatever situation we're in in order to survive in it. So most of us do that.

And when you're doing that, you can look quite "happy" to the world (and even to yourself, to varying degrees, depending on your personality, I think) when you're really just making the best of a very bad situation. And when you've never experienced any of the things that you might later find truly make you happy.

And when you accept as normal quite horrible, imprisoning things -- because you've never seen or experienced anything better so you don't know that anything else exists. Or you've been taught that any other way of living is a bad, dangerous thing that you have to shun or get into horrible danger or go to hell or whatever.

My family member who figured out in her 80s that she'd been treated worse than shit by a couple of people she'd given her allegiance and love to until they died was described with the following tagline in her senior high-school yearbook:  " So lucky! If only all our spirits could be so happy and serene."  (Yes -- this is the kind of thing a high-school yearbook staff wrote in the 1930s!) 

She smiled and didn't complain. Complaining and not smiling weren't permitted. But everybody saw the smiles and heard no complaining, so their minds went right to "Happy!" "Serene!" "Lucky!"

I helped push her toward understanding what had really happened because of the way I complained about my own quite similar experience -- and a large part of me thinks that I did a lousy thing by doing that. (However, she didn't really believe me when I bitched about such things -- she tried her best to just write me off as a grump!)  

What finally pushed her over the edge was that, as an elderly woman, for the first time she made some friends who talked a lot together about their lives. And they all expressed horror at things she described that she had always told herself were perfectly normal and fine. It was like a bright light had suddenly come on. LIke Helen Keller with her hand under the pump -- "Wa....wa....water!" And in this case, I can't decide if it was a good thing or a bad thing.

But I agree that it's perfectly possible to go through life imprisoned and never know it. And that way you can figure you're happy, even  if your happiness isn't something a lot of other people would recognize.

In a way, that's my wish for the Duggarlings .... because who wants regrets?

At the same time, though, I hope they raise their kids differently.....

And they probably will, to some extent, anyway. They were sucked into this lifestyle. They didn't choose it. So that almost certainly means that few of them will have enough energy to promote and enforce it the way their parents -- first-generation zealots -- did. 

That is a terribly sad story.

My view is that it is better to look reality in the face even if the delusion is a "happy" one.  Happy is an ambiguous condition anyway. I don't have a lot of experience with it.

[Dirndl]

1 hour ago, Christina87 said:

I agree with all this! And we know Jeremy doesn't have a problem with Jinger wearing pants. He said something right after they started courting like, "I love that Jinger wears dresses, but I'd be happy if she wore pants, too." We've known his views on this from the very beginning. I'm sure Jeremy truly doesn't care what she wears (as long as it's modest), and knew he would win brownie points with the fans by making that view known. I do wonder, though: what would happen if Jinger wanted to wear a crop top, or get a nose ring? What if she wanted to stop exercising, eat a lot, and gain weight? I do believe that Jeremy is encouraging / forcing Jinger to stay thin. I think Jinger is on board with the diet, but not necessarily the exercise, since she didn't grow up exercising...but I digresss. 

But isn't most of that true for many couples including non Evangelicals? To be honest, I like fit men and if my partner stopped looking after himself and became lazy and overweight, I wouldn't be happy at all. (The situation would be different if this happened because of health reasons of course.) A friend of mine married a guy who was totally into working out and had a great body. Shortly after their marriage he turned into a couch potato and gained a lot of weight, my friend was furious and told him so and "forced" him to start exercising again. IMO Jeremy isn't "forcing" Jinger to stay thin, she probably knows that he prefers thinner women and tries to look good to him. I would do the same and would expect the same of my partner. The same with piercings. I don't like them at all and if my husband suddenly wanted one, I would be against it (especially in the face) and I also wouldn't get one if my partner disliked them. Don't we all want to be attractive for our partner and want to stay attracted to them? I think all of that is normal but maybe I'm a controlling woman myself ;).

As far as Felicity's future goes, I have higher hopes for her than the other Duggar grandchildren because of the women in Jeremy's family. His mom and sister went to university as far as I remember and the sister looks as if she lives an independent life. So, I think (or hope to be more exact) that they want Felicity to be an educated Christian woman. They also talked about Felicity following in her dad's foot steps which would include team sports and exposure to all kinds of different people which would also broaden her horizon quite a lot. Hopefully I won't be disappointed...

[QuinnInND]

He's shilling for this company. 

[Saylii]

3 minutes ago, QuinnInND said:

He's shilling for this company. 

Well first, those are women’s glasses 😂

[Churchhoney]

7 minutes ago, QuinnInND said:

He's shilling for this company. 

Well, you can get bluelight-filtering glasses that work just fine for under $20. But if you just gotta have those $95-and-up frames, I guess you just gotta have 'em. 

My only remaining hope is that he doesn't continue with the shilling once he  graduates and gets another actual church job. To me, it's unethical to combine a position of such trust and influence with constantly urging people to buy expensive things. For the time being, I plan to believe that he knows that. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Churchhoney

[ginger90]

At least the pictures are decent.

Someone asked about their cat in the comments. I hope he answers.

[Mojitogirl]

5 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

On the other hand, despite clearly having some nice human qualities, Felicity's paternal grandfather also aggressively preaches a keep-women-in-their-[lower]-place theological misogyny.

And Felicity's father has deliberately gone all out to loudly, publicly and enthusiastically embrace a guru and school that steadfastly bar women from coming within a thousand miles of any positions of influence or thought and to proudly be one of the topline signers of the guru's public letter condemning as un-Christian anyone who argues that sexism and racism are prevalent in our society, including churches, or have damaged people in any significant way. 

And when people talk about all the fabulous steps that Jingle has taken toward being her own woman .... it seems to be 100--percent about her doing things like wearing tight jeans and sleeveless blouses and dyeing her hair blonde. But despite Jim Bob's apparent preference for long curly hair and skirts, none of those things really flies in the face of the preferences of many men, even many Christian conservatives, as far as I've seen. So even if those changes have been spurred entirely by Jingle's own preferences, I doubt they represent any actual challenging of what Jer likes in his woman. So my guess is that no threat has been posed to his position or any of his ideas. 

I think the jury's out on whether Felicity would get applause or a sit-down-and-shut-up if she actually aspired to do, say or be anything that didn't comport with the men's view of what makes a woman ornamental and desirable or that might threaten men's total hold on the real power and influence in their patriarchal culture. 

I'd like to think that they'll naturally move in a more moderate direction in substance as well as style. But all I see currently is a style change. 

In addition to Jer's love affair with MacArthur -- who's been doubling down on his patriarchal stances the whole time Jer's been kissing his ass -- the BFF status Jer awarded Cade doesn't give me hope.

Fiance Gabby wears tight jeans and dyes her hair blonde. But that's making her anything but her own woman. According to Jer's BFF, nothing else that Gabby or any other woman could possibly do in a lifetime would be as significant and as important to God in deeming her a good person as the self-denial she practices in putting service to Cade first among her priorities. (And I've seen nothing at all about the importance of a husband's service to a wife...)  I don't for one minute think Jer overlooked this belief and emphasis when he awarded Cade BFF status. 

That said, I definitely hope that they do let Felicity choose her own directions in life, whatever they may be. But everything I've seen these men and their buddies preach says that, while men can aspire to pretty much anything, women's aspirations have to stay within a very narrow sphere.

This post is the reason I find this forum so important. We are conditioned to see the shiny outer packages and these cults are so good at presenting themselves so normal, so much like us!  Despite their social media and gossip magazine pronouncements, their cult does not give Jinger or Felicity a road to actually choose what their path in life will be. As a woman, I thank all of you who have enlightened me to see past the cute pictures. Jinger and Jeremy are definitely influencers and forums like this taught me to see what they are REALLY trying to influence me on. 

[Picture It. Sicily]

I'm guessing he doesn't get the (Alan)Turing reference...

[Churchhoney]

11 minutes ago, Mojitogirl said:

This post is the reason I find this forum so important. We are conditioned to see the shiny outer packages and these cults are so good at presenting themselves so normal, so much like us!  Despite their social media and gossip magazine pronouncements, their cult does not give Jinger or Felicity a road to actually choose what their path in life will be. As a woman, I thank all of you who have enlightened me to see past the cute pictures. Jinger and Jeremy are definitely influencers and forums like this taught me to see what they are REALLY trying to influence me on. 

Yeah, I think what makes sense is to know that there's a shiny facade here and to look beyond it to see what their current stated beliefs are....-- But to also keep in mind that all the Duggarlings and Duggar-adjacents are still young .... so there's hope and time for them to think things through and come to some different conclusions! 

[doodlebug]

20 minutes ago, Picture It. Sicily said:

I'm guessing he doesn't get the (Alan)Turing reference...

Yes, I suspect he doesn't and it makes me smile that JereME favors eyeglass frames named after a famous gay scientist.  Of course, maybe he doesn't mind because Turing was persecuted to the point of suicide for his sexual orientation.

[Trillium]

40 minutes ago, Saylii said:

Well first, those are women’s glasses 😂

It reminds me of an episode of Frasier where Martin gets what are clearly woman’s glasses, yet is totally oblivious. At one point  he’s digging in Daphne’s purse and says “I can’t find a damn thing in here.” 😂😂 

[Lunera]

Well, he's one step closer to his dream of becoming an Instagram model

[Scarlett45]

Think the disconnect is that people are assuming believing someone to be inferior to you means you would treat them poorly- for most people (outside of truly sadistic people and the power hungry) you can believe someone is socially, physically, mentally, spiritually your inferior and STILL enjoy them and treat them with kindness. If someone is meeting your needs for companionship, partnered sex, social support and providing you with progeny (that you want)- it’s very easy to be nice to them even without the initial sexual attraction Jeremy and Jinger had.

The ideology that this ilk subscribes to is that women are inferior to men based on the natural order of GOD. For most men does that mean it’s okay to abuse or mistreat your wife? Of course not.

Many people have pets, and see ourselves as superior to our animal companions- but most of us do love our pets and treat them well. 

[Oldernowiser]

52 minutes ago, QuinnInND said:

He's shilling for this company. 

This fucking guy...

I just can’t with this.

[momofsquid]

The hair and hipster glasses remind me of David Rose on Schitt's Creek. Sorry Jer, you look non-hetero.

[Lunera]

Jinge did a good job airbrushing those deep wrinkles on his 5 head.

[Westiepeach]

4 minutes ago, Lunera said:

Jinge did a good job airbrushing those deep wrinkles on his 5 head.

Offs...

[Zella]

I can't believe Jeremy posted his picture. I don't know what vibe he is aiming for, but he somehow manages to look high, confused, and constipated. 

I'm not photogenic and constantly pull stupid faces, but I also don't plaster those faces all over social media. . . . 

[Sew Sumi]

I read elsewhere that blue light glasses aren't even necessary, other than helping ease insomnia late at night. Just use the 20 rule: for every 20 minutes of screentime, look up and focus on something far away for 20 seconds. 

What a scam.

[Zella]

I wonder how much studying time Jeremy actually puts into his seminary coursework and if/how that will change when he goes from being a remote student to one who is physically attending classes. 

11 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I read elsewhere that blue light glasses aren't even necessary, other than helping ease insomnia late at night. Just use the 20 rule: for every 20 minutes of screentime, look up and focus on something far away for 20 seconds. 

What a scam.

FWIW, I have the blue light lenses. I also have horrible eye sight and trouble focusing, so I have issues beyond just being on a computer a lot. But after starting a job where I was on one all day, I was having really bad eye strain/eye twitches, and that has gone away after getting those lenses. I suppose it could be a placebo effect. LOL But they worked out okay for me. 

[mynextmistake]

10 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I agree with all this! And we know Jeremy doesn't have a problem with Jinger wearing pants. He said something right after they started courting like, "I love that Jinger wears dresses, but I'd be happy if she wore pants, too." We've known his views on this from the very beginning. I'm sure Jeremy truly doesn't care what she wears (as long as it's modest), and knew he would win brownie points with the fans by making that view known. I do wonder, though: what would happen if Jinger wanted to wear a crop top, or get a nose ring? What if she wanted to stop exercising, eat a lot, and gain weight? I do believe that Jeremy is encouraging / forcing Jinger to stay thin. I think Jinger is on board with the diet, but not necessarily the exercise, since she didn't grow up exercising...but I digresss. 

I don’t really get this. I do think Jeremy prefers a thin, pretty wife, and I’m sure Jinger knows that. However, all of the Duggar girls are thin, even unmarried Jana. Jill and Jessa might be slightly larger than Jinger, but IMO the difference isn’t pronounced enough to be remarkable. I think it’s a combination of their innate metabolism and the fact that they grew up eating small portions and therefore never got used to the idea that some Americans have that a meal has to be a wagon-wheel-sized plate stuffed with food. They’re also in California now, and judging by the pictures they’ve posted they seem to be doing a lot of walking around. I really don’t think Jinger is doing anything extreme to stay the size that she is, and I can’t see anything that Jeremy would be forcing her to do in that regard.

[Sew Sumi]

I remember Jinger saying she either had gone for a run or was going to run. This was when TLC filmed in Laredo when Felicity was about 6 weeks old. 

She was not a runner when she lived at the TTH. Now, whether she decided to start running on her own, or if Jeremy suggested she start, that's anyone's best guess.

[momma2seven]

We weren't shown that she was a runner but there was that photo of her in track pants under a skirt. They may have felt showing a daughter doing athletic things would go against the way they wanted to be perceived. She was supposed to be training to be a submissive little wifey not a marathon runner. A female jogging might give unsuspecting men lustful thoughts. Maybe it could be seen as vanity. Jinger never seemed to be all that domestic as a teen but she must have been doing something with her time. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if she was out there exercising on her own. 

[GeeGolly]

Cults rely on isolation and brainwashing and whether JB & M like it, many of their kids are no longer isolated and no longer overly exposed to their bullshit.

Gothard's cult has a formidable enemy in the internet. Something much bigger than JB & M. Their rule of no TV seems ridiculous in modern times.

While I have no doubt the internet will not change many deep seated beliefs, it does expose the Duggar clan to many opinions and many real life examples of how others live.

Jinger's SM presence gives her steady exposure to mainstream folks' questions and opinions. 

Jinger is now living in a real city with even more exposure to the colorful real world. Each little thing she does, from wearing pants to leaving the house alone, opens the door to other changes. We all draw conclusions (right & wrong) from what we see because we don't really know what's in Jinger's head.

At this point I think Jinger is more likely than her siblings to open her eyes to less extreme beliefs. That may be small, but it's something.

[Churchhoney]

10 hours ago, Zella said:

I can't believe Jeremy posted his picture. I don't know what vibe he is aiming for, but he somehow manages to look high, confused, and constipated. 

I'm not photogenic and constantly pull stupid faces, but I also don't plaster those faces all over social media. . . . 

When he's looking for a job a couple years from now, will somebody on the hiring committee say, "I'm not sure I want a pastor who's well known on the internet for trying to sell pizzas and pocket squares?" 

Or is this kind of thing so common now that nobody will think twice about it? 

I also wonder whether a high-falutin' Calvinist congregation might think twice about hiring someone who regularly shows up on tv with Duggars, who don't just have bad theology but are, um, pretty down market. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Ijustwantsomechips]

15 hours ago, Saylii said:

Well first, those are women’s glasses 😂

They’re also too damned small. He looks like Max Headroom. Here’s a pic for the young millennials who have no idea what the hell the  cheesy early to mid 80s were like. (No shade to millennials. I’m an ‘81 baby, but don’t consider myself a millennial... go figure).

Edited July 23, 2019 by Ijustwantsomechips

[Ijustwantsomechips]

Call me a skeptic, a cynic or a bitch (and you’d be right about all three), but I am not impressed with Jinger orRev. Furkle’s trendy, fake, mainstream facade. They still have abhorrent beliefs about class, race, gender, and obviously politics judging by the people Jeremy follows and the documents he co-signs.  They may not be as extreme as Derick, or as openly looney tunes as say the Rodrigues clan, but birds of a feather.  As a minority woman, a Christian and a human being I can’t get behind anyone against social justice in today’s society. I just find that inhumane, cruel and not Christ-like at all.  Jesus, the real Jesus of the bible, not the Gothard and MacArthur cult-like or prosperity preaching Jesus of today, loved everyone and spoke against injustice, including social injustice (see the many sermons, parables and bible verses on hospitality, caring for the poor and downtrodden, protecting children, forgiveness, feeding the hungry, and accepting people of all faiths and colors).

I also have no hope for Felicity being allowed to pursue education or a career.  I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but just because Furkle’s mom and sister have educations doesn’t mean he’s okay with it.  His beliefs may be more extreme than that.  Sometimes you pattern your life after your parents, and sometimes you go in the opposite direction of things you didn’t like.  

I don’t think anyone is off base, and I’m not attacking anyone’s opinion, but like a few posters said, that shiny, attractive exterior hides an ugly core of beliefs.  I’ll get off my soap box now, but some days these folks just really annoy me.  

[Churchhoney]

12 hours ago, Zella said:

I wonder how much studying time Jeremy actually puts into his seminary coursework and if/how that will change when he goes from being a remote student to one who is physically attending classes. 

FWIW, I have the blue light lenses. I also have horrible eye sight and trouble focusing, so I have issues beyond just being on a computer a lot. But after starting a job where I was on one all day, I was having really bad eye strain/eye twitches, and that has gone away after getting those lenses. I suppose it could be a placebo effect. LOL But they worked out okay for me. 

I have blue light lenses too. I try not to work on the computer too close to bedtime, but sometimes I need to get something written and I break the rule. Seemed to me that I was having extra trouble getting to sleep on those nights, so I got the glasses to use on those occasions, and, as with @Zella, they seem to work. Also as with Zella, it could be a placebo effect. (I'm okay with a placebo effect, but I don't need to pay $95 for it!)

[Christina87]

54 minutes ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

Call me a skeptic, a cynic or a bitch (and you’d be right about all three), but I am not impressed with Jinger orRev. Furkle’s trendy, fake, mainstream facade. They still have abhorrent beliefs about class, race, gender, and obviously politics judging by the people Jeremy follows and the documents he co-signs.  They may not be as extreme as Derick, or as openly looney tunes as say the Rodrigues clan, but birds of a feather.  As a minority woman, a Christian and a human being I can’t get behind anyone against social justice in today’s society. I just find that inhumane, cruel and not Christ-like at all.  Jesus, the real Jesus of the bible, not the Gothard and MacArthur cult-like or prosperity preaching Jesus of today, loved everyone and spoke against injustice, including social injustice (see the many sermons, parables and bible verses on hospitality, caring for the poor and downtrodden, protecting children, forgiveness, feeding the hungry, and accepting people of all faiths and colors).

I also have no hope for Felicity being allowed to pursue education or a career.  I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but just because Furkle’s mom and sister have educations doesn’t mean he’s okay with it.  His beliefs may be more extreme than that.  Sometimes you pattern your life after your parents, and sometimes you go in the opposite direction of things you didn’t like.  

I don’t think anyone is off base, and I’m not attacking anyone’s opinion, but like a few posters said, that shiny, attractive exterior hides an ugly core of beliefs.  I’ll get off my soap box now, but some days these folks just really annoy me.  

I could see Felicity having very, very limited career options. I could see her being able to attend a school like clown college, or even Liberty, and major in music. I could see her being allowed to be a church organist, or an LPN like Abbie, or possibly even a kindergarten teacher, if they get really wild. I'm sure Jeremy would not want her teaching in the public schools, though, and would heavily encourage her teaching at a Christian school. I think they might allow her options that a woman in the 1900's-1940's might have had. 

I was the editor of my school's yearbook in college, and I enjoyed reading the old ones, from around the 1890's-1920's. it was such a different world! Men and women weren't allowed to talk at all except in church! They could also go on one date a month, where the man sent the woman a letter through the dorm mother, and she had to formally accept or reject. Yet, plenty of couples were engaged at graduation. Sort of like the duggars, but at least with a real education! It seemed like below every woman's picture, they said something like, "Mary got her BA in music. So glad she'll never have to use it!!! She will be a fine wife and homemaker to Fred." Plus, all the women studied music, art, elocution, or something like that, while the men studied law, medicine, or business. This is the era I see Felicity being allowed to partake in, though it's better than the duggar family's 1800's mentality!

[Zella]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

When he's looking for a job a couple years from now, will somebody on the hiring committee say, "I'm not sure I want a pastor who's well known on the internet for trying to sell pizzas and pocket squares?" 

Or is this kind of thing so common now that nobody will think twice about it? 

I also wonder whether a high-falutin' Calvinist congregation might think twice about hiring someone who regularly shows up on tv with Duggars, who don't just have bad theology but are, um, pretty down market. 

I think you're right that it will be a turn-off to a lot of churches, especially within the Calvinist community. I'm not particularly devout--don't attend church and haven't for years--but I find his shilling stuff extremely distasteful for a pastor. If I were on a church hiring committee, between that and how infrequently he actually was in Laredo to pastor his church, I would not even be calling him in for an interview. 

In my experience, I think a lot of Calvinists would also consider his interest in/affection for fashion and food sinful. 

My main takeaway about Jeremy the past few months is that he really doesn't have a good read on what he's getting himself into.

By affiliating himself with John MacDonald, he's making himself an undesirable candidate to more open-minded, modern churches that might not find his social media shilling that weird.

However, he just doesn't seem like a good fit for MacDonald's brand of Christianity, either. The actual doctrine might line up nicely with Jeremy's own beliefs--not a ringing endorsement--but the culture of those churches, in my experience, tend to be quite sober and uptight. Jeremy's self-professed love for peacock fashions and fancy food and his constant LOOK AT ME! selfies would not go over well.

It makes him seem "of the world" rather than just in it. He also, in the parlance of some of these believers, seems to have worldly things for idols. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Zella

[Natalie68]

20 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

No arguments with what you said.  I was born in 1944.  My choices presented to me were "marry a doctor, if possible, maybe go to college and be a teacher and get tenure so you can stay home with your children, maybe be a secretary/bookkeeper".  With everyone mostly given those same choices, it was easy to fall into that.  I did marry the doctor, became a secretary, and stayed home with my children...until the first Mr. lookeyloo ditched me on our 11th anniversary.  Oy vey, totally unprepared.  Long miserable story short, we were living near a university that had a special program for adult students and a friend literally came to my house and took me to register.  That and my therapist is where I learned about personal power.  And, I wasn't at all unhappy with my first life.  Really.  I loved him, loved staying at home with my children, doing all the "wifey" things.  But, I was forced to grow and develop by circumstances.  I am happy now too, with my MSW, although retired, the second Mr. lookeyloo and the life I have now.  Who knows if the first Mr. lookeyloo didn't ditch me, and we stayed married, would I have stayed happy?  He didn't inhibit me as far as doing anything, though.  So hard to know.

PS I tell all young women whose paths I cross that they need to be prepared to take care of themselves, because one doesn't know what curves life will throw.  I was a good example of that.

Fantastic advice!  Ever since I was a kid I wanted to support myself.  It started out because I wanted to buy whatever I wanted and then I realized I was always going to be ok if I could support myself.  I always worry when a partner has no interest in working.  Life happens and you need to be able to roll with it.  But for the Anna's of the world as long as they have someone to take out the trash it doesn't matter how they are treated 🙄.

[Natalie68]

32 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

I could see Felicity having very, very limited career options. I could see her being able to attend a school like clown college, or even Liberty, and major in music. I could see her being allowed to be a church organist, or an LPN like Abbie, or possibly even a kindergarten teacher, if they get really wild. I'm sure Jeremy would not want her teaching in the public schools, though, and would heavily encourage her teaching at a Christian school. I think they might allow her options that a woman in the 1900's-1940's might have had. 

I was the editor of my school's yearbook in college, and I enjoyed reading the old ones, from around the 1890's-1920's. it was such a different world! Men and women weren't allowed to talk at all except in church! They could also go on one date a month, where the man sent the woman a letter through the dorm mother, and she had to formally accept or reject. Yet, plenty of couples were engaged at graduation. Sort of like the duggars, but at least with a real education! It seemed like below every woman's picture, they said something like, "Mary got her BA in music. So glad she'll never have to use it!!! She will be a fine wife and homemaker to Fred." Plus, all the women studied music, art, elocution, or something like that, while the men studied law, medicine, or business. This is the era I see Felicity being allowed to partake in, though it's better than the duggar family's 1800's mentality!

I am really hoping being around a more diverse and accepting climate will help these 2 chuckleheads branch out and move beyond their closed minds.  It isn't like they moved to inland CA where it is more conservative, they are in a very liberal area.  That has to rub off some right???  I would hope anyway.  I think Felicity will have far more options than her cousins if mom and dad stay out here.  I would love to take Jinger to Bingo at Hamburger Mary's.  She needs to be around some drag queens.  HA!

[Minivanessa]

22 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

I am really hoping being around a more diverse and accepting climate will help these 2 chuckleheads branch out and move beyond their closed minds.  It isn't like they moved to inland CA where it is more conservative, they are in a very liberal area.  That has to rub off some right???  I would hope anyway.  I think Felicity will have far more options than her cousins if mom and dad stay out here.  I would love to take Jinger to Bingo at Hamburger Mary's.  She needs to be around some drag queens.  HA!

I'm not sure how it will play out with them. They are plunking themselves down into the conservative church/seminary empire of MacArthur (or whatever his name is). I know a few folks, born and raised in LA, who are very devout evangelicals. Not members of MacArthur's church but are generally into that type of theology. Always posting Bible verses and Jesus talk on Facebook. Although we haven't discussed politics I perceive them as also politically conservative. Where I think the LA experience comes in, is that they aren't freaked out by people who look "different" and speak differently. There's a certain level of more worldliness or wider experience, than you'd see with the Duggar kids for example. And, both the men and women hold responsible jobs, out in the real world, and interact and socialize with lots of different folks. Not the isolated fundie family thing that I think Jinger's long since kissed goodby.

Jeremy's obviously enjoying the more cosmopolitan joys of life in LA - food, fashion, fun places to visit - than Texas offered him. I suspect he couldn't wait to shake the dust of Texas off his fancy shoes. This is a guy who grew up and was educated on the East Coast. 

I think any LA influence will be pretty much skin deep and not touch their core theology. 

And, I wonder how Jeremy's SM posing is going to go down with his seminary classmates. Maybe he'll be fine, or any backbiting won't make it outside that closed circle. As I think I've mentioned, I'd bet the rent that many if not most of his classmates are living on modest means, maybe with spouses and kids, driving old cars, and worried about making ends meet. Fancy pocket squares priced in Euros are, I suspect, not on their radar. They may have wives who are working, young kids who are constantly growing out of their clothes, and are more likely to be found shopping at Walmart and Goodwill than fancy boutiques. 

Of, maybe that seminary is chock full of pretentious climbers, and he'll fit in just fine.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Jeeves

[Ohiopirate02]

14 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I'm not sure how it will play out with them. They are plunking themselves down into the conservative church/seminary empire of MacArthur (or whatever his name is). I know a few folks, born and raised in LA, who are very devout evangelicals. Not members of MacArthur's church but are generally into that type of theology. Always posting Bible verses and Jesus talk on Facebook. Although we haven't discussed politics I perceive them as also politically conservative. Where I think the LA experience comes in, is that they aren't freaked out by people who look "different" and speak differently. There's a certain level of more worldliness or wider experience, than you'd see with the Duggar kids for example. 

Jeremy's obviously enjoying the more cosmopolitan joys of life in LA - food, fashion, fun places to visit - than Texas offered him. I suspect he couldn't wait to shake the dust of Texas off his fancy shoes. This is a guy who grew up and was educated on the East Coast. 

I think any LA influence will be pretty much skin deep and not touch their core theology. 

And, I wonder how Jeremy's SM posing is going to go down with his seminary classmates. Maybe he'll be fine, or any backbiting won't make it outside that closed circle. As I think I've mentioned, I'd bet the rent that many if not most of his classmates are living on modest means, maybe with spouses and kids, driving old cars, and worried about making ends meet. Fancy pocket squares priced in Euros are, I suspect, not on their radar. They may have wives who are working, young kids who are constantly growing out of their clothes, and are more likely to be found shopping at Walmart and Goodwill than fancy boutiques. 

Of, maybe that seminary is chock full of pretentious climbers, and he'll fit in just fine.

MacArthur sees something in Jeremy that we do not.  If he had a problem with Jeremy's Instagram, Jeremy would stop post haste.  Jeremy is smart enough to know where his bread is buttered, and would swiftly change course to stay in MacArthur's good graces.  

I imagine that the Masters Seminary is full of back-biting and jockeying for position under MacArthur.  I am interested to see how Jeremy will respond to this.  I am picturing endless whisper campaigns and snide comments made with a smile.  Whoever comes out on top at the end of the program will be the one who knows how to fight like a girl.  Jeremy will need Jinger's help if he wants it to be him.  

The expensive pocket squares and other sartorial excesses probably won't be viewed as anything unless the seminary decides to abandon the prosperity gospel.  And, I don't see that happening anytime soon.  The designer duds will always be seen as a sign of Dog's love and acceptance.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Ohiopirate02
forgot to mention the pocket squares

[Churchhoney]

47 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

  I would love to take Jinger to Bingo at Hamburger Mary's.  She needs to be around some drag queens.  HA!

That'd be nice! But Jer's California hero and now, apparently, personal mentor staunchly preaches that if a Christian family raises a kid who insists they're gay, the family must break all ties with the kid --i.e., you can't even talk with them over a dinner --  unless they change their ways. Because to say you're gay and intend to act as such is not just a single moral failing but some kind of blasphemous offense against God Himself. And true Christians are required to react to such a sin by shunning. 

So that kind of outing seems unlikely to happen!

I'd be interested to know what kinds of things could help them gradually alter their stances....Having a brother who's just written and directed a film with a trans protagonist isn't enough to do it, it seems.....even though Jer does have apparently quite friendly interactions with his brother, plays internet chess with him and so on....

I think I go with @Zella's hypothesis:  Jer is moving in a bunch of potentially contradictory ways at once and doesn't necessarily know what he's aiming at.  That may actually be good news. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I think I go with @Zella's hypothesis:  Jer is moving in a bunch of potentially contradictory ways at once and doesn't necessarily know what he's aiming at. 

Yeah I think Jeremy is savvy enough to have spotted a potential opportunity with MacArthur and jumped on it, but that he isn't bright enough to think through the ramifications of that connection or if it really matched his personality and goals.