The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

[Zella]

51 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Anyone willing to take one for the team? I'm a hard psss. 

My thoughts on suffering through this are similar to William Tecumseh Sherman's about running for office: "I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected." 😉 

[Lisa418722]

6 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Oh Jinger, do share your tidbits of wisdom on singleness. You got married at the ripe old age of 22. 🙄

 

OK Jinger. I'm closer to JB & M's age than yours and I'm still single. Jana would be a better one to talk about being single than you, but then again Jana is still single and hasn't found a husband. 
For me personally, I would rather be single than married to someone like Jeremy who tells me what to wear, what to eat, how to act.  On Jeremy's Instagram I was accused of being jealous because I posted their recent pictures looked fake and I even missed their foodie posts.  This person said envy isn't good and I need Jesus  (umm, I may not be a fundie, but I am a believer).  

 

[GeeGolly]

I don't know what advice they gave about staying "encouraged while single", but I doubt it included, dating, enjoying freedom, learning what you want or don't want from each girl/boyfriend experience, traveling, getting to know yourself, learning to be independent and capable, establishing a career, gaining life experience and growing up, oh, and a very important one, using condoms.

[Kellyee]

Quote

I don't know what advice they gave about staying "encouraged while single", but I doubt it included, dating, enjoying freedom, learning what you want or don't want from each girl/boyfriend experience, traveling, getting to know yourself, learning to be independent and capable, establishing a career, gaining life experience and growing up, oh, and a very important one, using condoms.

The only singleness encouragement Jinger ever got was "Don't end up like Jana."

I really have nothing against Jinger, but the reality is that she has nothing to say in a podcast unless she is going to start spilling dirt about her family. She lived with her parents until she married young, and now she lives with her husband and her kid. She didn't go to school, has never held a job, and has no real hobbies that we've heard of. She's not savvy as far as being up-to-date on the issues of the world. She knows about the Bible and being pregnant, and that's pretty much it. But Jeremy wants to create this empire that expects a lot more of her, while he also wants her to continue to be a meek doormat who sits at home and does everything he says. It's not going to work. The podcast and blog industries are already flooded with mommies who are much more savvy at self promotion than Jinger, and have much more to say.

I'm interested to see how this all plays out. 

 

 

 

[Snow Fairy]

I actually thought Jinger would be the one that "breaks free", with all that moving so far away. But like it is said, Jeremy is  Jim Bob v 2.0 and that's not going to happen

Now I think that the happiest with their lives are Jill and Joy. 

 

[Churchhoney]

9 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Oh Jinger, do share your tidbits of wisdom on singleness. You got married at the ripe old age of 22. 🙄

 

This is what comes of being a media "star." You start imagining your advice on everything is so valuable that strangers should gather weekly in large groups to listen to it. 

Seriously. Unless you had really started to believe your own hype about the great wisdom you have to share, I don't think you could make this podcast and write these promotions in the way they're doing it. You'd be appalled and embarrassed by how ludicrous it is for you to claim you know enough about this stuff to give lectures worthy of a broad audience.....

And it's not just the one topic on which she/they claim special wisdom. It's topic after topic, week after week. In all these weeks they've only had one guest and I don't think they've ever said that they were interested in a question so they've been studying up on it and are reporting what they've found the way most of the podcasts I've ever listened to do.  It's all "wisdom" out  of their own heads. I was a little encouraged last week when they brought a guest on. But I suppose that required too much effort to arrange, so now they're back to their usual lazy ways. 

Jeremy and every single Duggar are already arrogant enough about their ability to give advice on everything under the sun. This weekly my-blatherings-are-gold ritual seems likely to make it worse. It's not doing anything to cure Jer of his pompous and ponderous tone, either. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Albanyguy]

Oh, yeah, I remember how Josh and Anna used to be shown at Fundie weddings, pontificating to the newly married couple about how to have a happy Christian marriage, when they’d only been married a couple of months themselves. 
 

It must be killing Josh and Anna that they’ve been sidelined by Josh’s actions and can’t milk their TV fame like the rest of the family. 

[Kellyee]

Quote

I actually thought Jinger would be the one that "breaks free", with all that moving so far away. But like it is said, Jeremy is  Jim Bob v 2.0 and that's not going to happen

Now I think that the happiest with their lives are Jill and Joy. 

Jeremy is controlling, but I would rather live with him than Derek. Derek is a bitter shit-stirring bigoted asshole with a victim complex. He's in a pissing contest with Jim Bob that he's not going to win, because Jim Bob is ignoring him and not even playing. Jeremy was at least smart enough to just find another opportunity and move away. Jeremy handles the Duggars far better than Derek, and Jill does not look all that happy to me.

 

 

 

[Snow Fairy]

I think that Jill has  more freedom than Jinger, that is what I was saying.

She cuts her hair, wears pants, has more relaxed life. Jinger's life is so staged and so weird, like they do not live in the real world, only in those fake instagram photos

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Kellyee said:

Jeremy is controlling, but I would rather live with him than Derek. Derek is a bitter shit-stirring bigoted asshole with a victim complex. He's in a pissing contest with Jim Bob that he's not going to win, because Jim Bob is ignoring him and not even playing. Jeremy was at least smart enough to just find another opportunity and move away. Jeremy handles the Duggars far better than Derek, and Jill does not look all that happy to me.

 

 

 

I would rather drink poison than be with either Jeremy or Derick, but I don't think Jeremy has ever done anything, j including moving, because he was smart. In fact, his ineptness at business is sort of spectacular. I think he moved to L.A. because he is a famewhore, and he tries and fails at numerous ventures because he is deluded enough to think he is hot shit. And for as much as he may dislike his in-laws, he is still more tied to them than Derick, despite living in another state. He has an LLC registered to Jim Bob's address, and the only reason anyone knows who he is is because he's on his daddy-in-law's show, which he remains on. 

Jeremy is ambitious,  for sure, but that doesn't mean he is smart about, well, any decision he has made.  

[Suzn]

1 hour ago, Snow Fairy said:

I think that Jill has  more freedom than Jinger, that is what I was saying.

She cuts her hair, wears pants, has more relaxed life. Jinger's life is so staged and so weird, like they do not live in the real world, only in those fake instagram photos

I think both Jill and Jinger are lead by their headships.  Jill may appear to be more independent but she is merely being lead by Derick in a different direction than she was raised.  However, it follows what Derick grew up with - he went to school and his mother has short hair and wears pants, for example.  Jill is not breaking free from her leader.

Jinger is breaking free from her raising only so far as getting a more stylish city life, one that she had expressed an interest in.  Jeremy is in control and it appears that she is having the life she dreamed of.  Of course, as widely discussed, it doesn't look like their lifestyle is sustainable.  Whether Jinger understands any of this is anybody's guess.  It's unclear whether Jeremy gets it.

Ironically, it appears that Jessa is more in charge of her own life than Jill and Jinger.  it's just that she is choosing to stay much as she was raised.

[laurakaye]

11 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Oh Jinger, do share your tidbits of wisdom on singleness. You got married at the ripe old age of 22. 🙄

 

Jeremy to woefully underpaid photographer just trying to make a couple of bucks to pay his rent: "Make sure you take this photo from my good side this time - not that travesty you took from before I got my hair coiffed and fluffed - you know the one, where you said the angle of my jawline reminded you of a young Tom Cruise but actually ended up showcasing my ever so slightly receding hairline?  NOT LIKE THAT."

Jeremy to Jinger:  "Okay - Jing,  you sit there.  Swipe on that $50 Dolce & Gabbana lipstick....wait, hang on - let me arrange your newly blond hair to get that curl just right.........there we go.  Now DON'T TOUCH YOUR HAIR.  Open your Bible and place that sheet of paper atop it - good, it looks like our talking points for this week's podcast - no one has to know it's really a credit card application we got in the mail.  Place your hand gingerly (yes, I know that's your name, please stop giggling before you mess up your lipstick) atop the page as if you are going to refer to it at any moment.  I am going to place my $450 Montblanc just so on my own Bible, to make it appear as if I set it down after making a careful and brilliant note in the margin.  Good, good.  Now I am going to open my mouth and stare meaningfully into your eyes, while you gaze at me in utter adoration as if I've just made a profoundly brilliant statement about life, marriage, the universe, pocket squares...all the things I know so well.  Here we go....take #117....freeze.......SNAP!  PRINT THAT!"

[Churchhoney]

52 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Jeremy to woefully underpaid photographer just trying to make a couple of bucks to pay his rent: "Make sure you take this photo from my good side this time - not that travesty you took from before I got my hair coiffed and fluffed - you know the one, where you said the angle of my jawline reminded you of a young Tom Cruise but actually ended up showcasing my ever so slightly receding hairline?  NOT LIKE THAT."

Jeremy to Jinger:  "Okay - Jing,  you sit there.  Swipe on that $50 Dolce & Gabbana lipstick....wait, hang on - let me arrange your newly blond hair to get that curl just right.........there we go.  Now DON'T TOUCH YOUR HAIR.  Open your Bible and place that sheet of paper atop it - good, it looks like our talking points for this week's podcast - no one has to know it's really a credit card application we got in the mail.  Place your hand gingerly (yes, I know that's your name, please stop giggling before you mess up your lipstick) atop the page as if you are going to refer to it at any moment.  I am going to place my $450 Montblanc just so on my own Bible, to make it appear as if I set it down after making a careful and brilliant note in the margin.  Good, good.  Now I am going to open my mouth and stare meaningfully into your eyes, while you gaze at me in utter adoration as if I've just made a profoundly brilliant statement about life, marriage, the universe, pocket squares...all the things I know so well.  Here we go....take #117....freeze.......SNAP!  PRINT THAT!"

Oh, good grief, I just looked at the photo on a big screen. I fear you're 100 percent right, including the credit-card application that came in the junk mail! 

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Churchhoney

[crazy8s]

1 hour ago, Suzn said:

I think both Jill and Jinger are lead by their headships.  Jill may appear to be more independent but she is merely being lead by Derick in a different direction than she was raised.  However, it follows what Derick grew up with - he went to school and his mother has short hair and wears pants, for example.  Jill is not breaking free from her leader

I agree both Jinger and Jill are being led by their headships. the difference for me, going on just their social media posts, is that Jer seems to be telling or instructing Jinger on changes to an image of the wife he wants, to fit the image he imagines for himself. I don't get that feeling from Derick. I think he probably said if you want to cut your hair go get a haircut. I doubt Derick picks out the outfits or the bathing suits Jill has been shown wearing etc

not sure if I am explaining well, but every change with Jinger seems scripted to fit the image Jer wants and changes with Jill seem a more natural progression. baby step progression, but I think she is making her own choices in some things.

[leighdear]

13 hours ago, Nysha said:

A lot of the pictures of Felicity are poised and shot by someone besides Jer & Jing. 

For the first 15 years of my life, my parents had professional family photographs taken annually.  We all had school photos taken professionally.  Wedding photos, christening photos, graduation photos, reunion photos, etc. 

I missed the point in time when posed photos became "wrong".  

[JoanArc]

20 minutes ago, leighdear said:

For the first 15 years of my life, my parents had professional family photographs taken annually.  We all had school photos taken professionally.  Wedding photos, christening photos, graduation photos, reunion photos, etc. 

I missed the point in time when posed photos became "wrong".  

Posed photos are not wrong. It’s trying to pass off posed photos as spontaneous life that’s annoying and transparent. Especially when, in this day and age, people take dozens and dozens of pictures per day. 95% of your pictures should not appear to have been taken by a professional photographer.

[laurakaye]

7 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

Posed photos are not wrong. It’s trying to pass off posed photos as spontaneous life that’s annoying and transparent. Especially when, in this day and age, people take dozens and dozens of pictures per day. 95% of your pictures should not appear to have been taken by a professional photographer.

Exactly.  I snarked about Jere and Jing's supposed "candid" shot of the two of the "podcasting" but I 100% believe that shot, like most of their others, was carefully crafted down to the angle of his pen on his Bible.  I further think that at least 20 pictures were taken and Jeremy selected the one that made him look the best.  Maybe I'm jaded but the abundance of posed "candid" pictures on social media make me want to hose everyone right off my lawn.

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, leighdear said:

For the first 15 years of my life, my parents had professional family photographs taken annually.  We all had school photos taken professionally.  Wedding photos, christening photos, graduation photos, reunion photos, etc. 

I missed the point in time when posed photos became "wrong".  

But did you share those with millions of complete strangers?

[GeeGolly]

I think Jinger also wants the image Jeremy wants and is grateful for his 'help'. She always came in second to "pretty one" Jessa, and with Jeremy's influence that's no longer true. I think Jill doesn't have a clue what she wants and Derick doesn't care, so Jill looks to fellow parishioners to see what is "okay" and uses them as a boundary. I think Jessa does rule the roost, but she is still a scared-of-the-world Fundy so she never pushes beyond Ben's Christian boundaries. Jessa also wants to be a TLC family for life.

[Nysha]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think Jinger also wants the image Jeremy wants and is grateful for his 'help'. She always came in second to "pretty one" Jessa, and with Jeremy's influence that's no longer true. I think Jill doesn't have a clue what she wants and Derick doesn't care, so Jill looks to fellow parishioners to see what is "okay" and uses them as a boundary. I think Jessa does rule the roost, but she is still a scared-of-the-world Fundy so she never pushes beyond Ben's Christian boundaries. Jessa also wants to be a TLC family for life.

I agree. I also think all the Duggar matches appear to be compatible except Siah and Lauren.

Jinger doesn't have to worry her little head about anything, since Jeremy not only tells her how to walk, talk, think, and breath, but I doubt he shares any financial/business details with her. She wasn't raised to think or question and nothing about her married life has changed that.

[QuinnInND]

5 hours ago, leighdear said:

For the first 15 years of my life, my parents had professional family photographs taken annually.  We all had school photos taken professionally.  Wedding photos, christening photos, graduation photos, reunion photos, etc. 

I missed the point in time when posed photos became "wrong".  

For the first 15 years of my life, I had 6 pictures taken of me total. 

But these "candid, everyday" pics that Jing and Mr Pocket Square post are not candid pics.  

Edited August 6, 2020 by QuinnInND
Because my phones idea of the right word and mine differs greatly.

[Future Cat Lady]

Jill and Jinger both follow their headships, but I don’t think Derick is as controlling as Jeremy. Jeremy befriended Ben & Jessa because they were on TV. He got interested in Jinger because she was a meek christian virgin who could get him on TV. As soon has they got married, he changed her looks to fit his aesthetics. He’s turning her into the wife that would make him look good. She’s just a prop.
 

I think Derick married Jill because he liked her and thought they were a good match. I don’t think he forced her into wearing pants or cutting her hair. I think she decided to do it eventually because Derick has no problems with that. Is Jill changing her values to Derick’s values? Totally. But in a way, I think he’s encouraging Jill to think for herself. 

[Snow Fairy]

Also, isn't Jill in therapy? Or so it was said.

That is also a bigger step than eating out, drinking coffee and taking professional photos

[Minivanessa]

It's all pure spec here, lol, since I'm older than their mothers and can't stand fundies. But, I couldn't stand being in the same room with Jeremy for ten minutes and I'd pick Derick over him in a heartbeat if those were the choices in a spousal lottery and the alternative was a slow and painful death. 

I agree with the comments above that Derick isn't choosing Jill's clothes or hanging over her shoulder every time she posts on SM. In fact, ever since he started law school, until COVID anyway, he's been outta the house all day M-F at least. Either at school or his summer internships or even delivering freakin' GrubHub. Jill, as we all remember, started her married life as a Stage IV (or V?) Clinger. Now she manages to care for her kids and house all day long without another adult present. She goes to the store without her husband or a sibling along. That's HUGE for somebody raised in the TTH. HUUUGGGE! She has friends who aren't relatives or Gothardites or fundies. That's also a change from her life before marriage.

The Dillards' journey through life during their relatively short marriage has been messy, with career changes, the shock that Jill didn't effortlessly pump out babies, extended family issues, and all played out very publicly. We've seen Jill being the Clinger and Derick acting like a jerkwad. We've also seen, IMO, Derick acting as a caring and responsible husband who (somehow) bought and moved his family into a regular middle-class starter tract house in a regular middle-class starter subdivision, while he turned his career direction from the ministry to law school. No camera crews in the house, no hanging out with the in-laws at the TTH every day, no reality TV show governing the pattern of their activities, no daily kowtowing to the Almighty James Robert Duggar, King of the Tribe, Blessed Be His Name.

Derick wasn't reared in fundie-land; he's a mainstream Arkansas Southern Baptist guy who went to college and the movies and didn't wear  full length bluejeans to swim in or have to take an accountability partner to leave the hosue. After his flirtation with the fundie world and Duggar-land, he's back to where he came from and Jill's there with him. I hope she is indeed in therapy and I hope she's enjoying her life. We've seen her make mistakes but there's something sweet about her IMO. She's trying, she's branching out, and I hope she is in therapy and that it's helping her. While Derick's back where he came from, she's in new territory in many ways.

Meanwhile Jinger's swapped one dominating headship for another. She looks well-dressed and lives in a VERY nice house, and I hope she and the Rev have nice hot satisfying sex, and that he isn't mean to her when they're alone. I hope she has another uncomplicated delivery of a healthy baby, and enjoys her children. But IMO she's married to a guy who's a mediocre preacher and seems awfully full of himself. So far he seems to have coasted along on life by grabbing onto the coattails of older influential men. His dad's connections got him his starter church in Laredo, which he spent minimal energy on as soon as he latched onto JB Duggar's daughter and JB Duggar's TV show. Without cutting ties with the Duggar pot o' gold, he hopped onto MacArthur's gravy train. I don't know. Connections can get you in the door, but at some point you have to show them what you've got. So far, what Jeremy's got is a lot of ambition, expensive tastes, and a wife with a million SM followers. Talent, discipline, work ethic? Not so much in evidence, IMO.

 

[laurakaye]

10 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I think Derick married Jill because he liked her and thought they were a good match. I don’t think he forced her into wearing pants or cutting her hair. I think she decided to do it eventually because Derick has no problems with that. Is Jill changing her values to Derick’s values? Totally. But in a way, I think he’s encouraging Jill to think for herself. 

Does this mean I like Derick now?  I'm very confused.

I think what's interesting about the married girls is that Jill and Joy seem to have found their natural grooves - Jill seems super comfortable with the laid-back boho-hippie vibe she's discovered and seems less afraid of trying new things, and Joy looks radiant being outside and working alongside Austin, letting Giddy play trucks in the mud, etc.  On the other end, I think that Jessa is doing what she thinks she is supposed to be doing - having babies and looking pretty but being basically unfulfilled because she can't see anything beyond that, and Jinger is basically Play-Doh, slowly being molded into the blonde, stylish, meek and adoring wife that Jeremy wants.

Edited August 7, 2020 by laurakaye

[GeeGolly]

Is it all about headship though?

In the real world new partners adopt and adapt to many things when they get together. Some non-Catholics and non-Jews convert to Catholicism and Judaism prior to marrying their partner. Diets can change, exercise, career paths, etc.

The Duggar girls were raised by Michelle who has finessed the line between adoring wife and wife-in-charge. I don't think any of the Duggar girls are totally selfless and their mother certainly isn't. I think some of what we're seeing play out is typical adjustments to being married.

I think Jeremy is a wanna be, and I think he likes to impress himself and Jinger, but I don't see him as this intentionally controlling ass who dictates Jinger's every move and every thought. I also don't see Jinger as someone who would allow that.

I think all our thoughts and speculations have some ring of accuracy, but I don't believe any of the Duggar girls are total doormats, nor do I think the husbands are completely running the relationships.

Edited August 7, 2020 by GeeGolly

[Future Cat Lady]

19 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Does this mean I like Derick now?  I'm very confused.

I think what's interesting about the married girls is that Jill and Joy seem to have found their natural grooves - Jill seems super comfortable with the laid-back boho-hippie vibe she's discovered and seems less afraid of trying new things, and Joy looks radiant being outside and working alongside Austin, letting Giddy play trucks in the mud, etc.  On the other end, I think that Jessa is doing what she thinks she is supposed to be doing - having babies and looking pretty but being basically unfulfilled because she can't see anything beyond that, and Jinger is basically Play-Doh, slowly being molded into the blonde, stylish, meek and adoring wife that Jeremy wants.

There is still plenty of reasons to dislike Derick. I think his feud with JB has hurt Jill. Moving away from her toxic parents is not a bad thing, but it should be her choice. And it must hurt to not be able to be as close to some of her siblings.

[GeeGolly]

Just now, Future Cat Lady said:

There is still plenty of reasons to dislike Derick. I think his feud with JB has hurt Jill. Moving away from her toxic parents is not a bad thing, but it should be her choice. And it must hurt to not be able to be as close to some of her siblings.

The fact that Derick is hateful and doesn't hesitate to get on his Christian high horse and spew it, doesn't make him the nicest dude around

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

There is still plenty of reasons to dislike Derick. I think his feud with JB has hurt Jill. Moving away from her toxic parents is not a bad thing, but it should be her choice. And it must hurt to not be able to be as close to some of her siblings.

I agree with most of the criticisms being made of both Derick and Jeremy. But I also think that all Duggarlings are better off being distanced from their parents (either by physicial or mental distance) even if they don't make the choice to be but are just carted off, whether by Jer's fame ambitions or Der's feuds or Austin's apparent independent streak......etc.

So I actually think the married ones are all ultimately better off for being in new situations, and especially new situations that really distance them from the TTH, whether or not they chose the distancing on their own. 

In my opinion, in the TTH they (especially the girls) have all been so accustomed to not having their voices really heard that over time they've basically stopped having voices that they assert at all, unless what they're asserting is exactly the same line that their parents and the Gothard gang have been asserting all through the Duggarlings' lives. 

For exhibit A, see: Seewald, Jessa Duggar.

She has this big reputation of being the strong, assertive woman among the Duggarlings, but as far as I can see every single thing she ever "asserts" is either a loud and lengthy actual defense of her parents or a paean to her perfect childhood or some other hymn to doing things the Duggar way......So, I ask you,  is that really a person "asserting her own voice and, by damn, she's been allowed to so the others could as well"? I very much doubt it.

Seems to me she either is just parroting what she's always heard and hasn't come any closer to feeling and asserting her own voice than any of the others did when they were at/near the TTH or she is asserting her own true voice but because by chance her voice actually is extremely similar to her parents' preferred voice there's no risk to her at all from asserting it (unlike the risk they all knew they'd incur if they'd asserted anything contrary to the JB/M line while in the TTH.) 

Given what I've seen, a lot of people living in controlling households -- especially women in patriarchal households -- just will not go away either physically or mentally -- unless somebody else takes the lead in it. And they're so accustomed to not rocking the boat by asserting their own voices in any way that they just never do it.....So I think we're asking too much if we think that, to become freer, a Duggarling would have had to step away by their own volition. 

I've known several people who never made a move on their own to leave a shut-your-mouth-somebody-else-is-in-total-control home situation and apparently squelched their own real voices pretty completely, but then left the situation because of a spouse (or some unavoidable circumstance) and, once they'd been pulled away, found their voices in ways you never would have expected them to do. 

So I'm totally in favor of all the Duggarlings being distanced from the TTH influence, no matter how it gets done, frankly. I think Jill probably does feel significant pain because of the rift with her family. But pain and real damage are often -- to me -- quite different things. I've felt quite a few pains in my life from things that turned out to be absolutely the best things that could have happened, and I feel as if I've seen this with other people, too. 

Similarly for any of them who may have married a really controlling person (don't know whether this description of really controlling fits Jer, Der, or Austin -- don't feel I've seen enough evidence -- they're all controlling, of course, even if it's mainly subconscious and not extreme on their parts, since they've been part of an entrenched, desperate-to-hold patriarchy from birth...). That's not a great thing, of course, but it does give them a new situation -- so they can begin to make comparisons and potentially gain more of a sense of who they are and what the world is like. You at least need points of comparison to begin to do this (and they're not readers -- so they have to get those points from real life). 

I just don't think there was/is any room at the TTH for a Duggarling's real voice to have any influence (especially the girls' voices, if they vary even a little from the party line). So even if leaving is painful, to me it's still the best thing that could possibly happen to any of them in the long run. I actually think Jessa's in the worst position because her husband has totally capitulated to Duggardom, so she has no impetus not to do that as well. To my eyes, she's the most likely of the married girls to be the trapped and stagnating one in the long run. 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Suzn]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

The fact that Derick is hateful and doesn't hesitate to get on his Christian high horse and spew it, doesn't make him the nicest dude around

We have seen plenty of demonstration of Derick's mean streak.  I doubt that he has become a nicer, kinder man.  He is very busy right now and possibly less frustrated than at some points and the meanness may or may not be as prominent.  For all the creepiness of Jeremy, I don't remember seeing any indication that he is mean, so I don't find him as odious as Derick.

All the speculation about how independent Jill or Jinger is, is just that - speculation.  What we can see is that neither of them go beyond the parameters set by Derick and Jeremy.  Let's see either of them take a step beyond that.

 

[Future Cat Lady]

I do think Jeremy sees the Duggars as beneath him and he moved Jinger away to pursue his own ambitions. However, he will latch on to the Duggars as long as it profits him.

Derick is moving Jill away from her family because of his own personal feud with JB.

None of these guys are doing it for the personal well-being of their wives. They’re doing it for their own selfish reasons. Time will tell if it was the best for the girls or not.

[GeeGolly]

52 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I agree with most of the criticisms being made of both Derick and Jeremy. But I also think that all Duggarlings are better off being distanced from their parents (either by physicial or mental distance) even if they don't make the choice to be but are just carted off, whether by Jer's fame ambitions or Der's feuds or Austin's apparent independent streak......etc.

So I actually think the married ones are all ultimately better off for being in new situations, and especially new situations that really distance them from the TTH, whether or not they chose the distancing on their own. 

In my opinion, in the TTH they (especially the girls) have all been so accustomed to not having their voices really heard that over time they've basically stopped having voices that they assert at all, unless what they're asserting is exactly the same line that their parents and the Gothard gang have been asserting all through the Duggarlings' lives. 

For exhibit A, see: Seewald, Jessa Duggar.

She has this big reputation of being the strong, assertive woman among the Duggarlings, but as far as I can see every single thing she ever "asserts" is either a loud and lengthy actual defense of her parents or a paean to her perfect childhood or some other hymn to doing things the Duggar way......So, I ask you,  is that really a person "asserting her own voice and, by damn, she's been allowed to so the others could as well"? I very much doubt it.

Seems to me she either is just parroting what she's always heard and hasn't come any closer to feeling and asserting her own voice than any of the others did when they were at/near the TTH or she is asserting her own true voice but because by chance her voice actually is extremely similar to her parents' preferred voice there's no risk to her at all from asserting it (unlike the risk they all knew they'd incur if they'd asserting anything contrary to the JB/M line while in the TTH.) 

Given what I've seen, a lot of people living in controlling households -- especially women in patriarchal households -- just will not go away either physically or mentally -- unless somebody else takes the lead in it. And they're so accustomed to not rocking the boat by asserting their own voices in any way that they just never do it.....So I think we're asking too much if we think that, to become freer, a Duggarling would have had to step away by their own volition. 

I've known several people who never made a move on their own to leave a shut-your-mouth-somebody-else-is-in-total-control home situation and apparently squelched their own real voices pretty completely, but then left the situation because of a spouse (or some unavoidable circumstance) and, once they'd been pulled away, found their voices in ways you never would have expected them to do. 

So I'm totally in favor of all the Duggarlings being distanced from the TTH influence, no matter how it gets done, frankly. I think Jill probably does feel significant pain because of the rift with her family. But pain and real damage are often -- to me -- quite different things. I've felt quite a few pains in my life from things that turned out to be absolutely the best things that could have happened, and I feel as if I've seen this with other people, too. 

Similarly for any of them who may have married a really controlling person (don't know whether this description of really controlling fits Jer, Der, or Austin -- don't feel I've seen enough evidence -- they're all controlling, of course, even if it's mainly subconscious and not extreme on their parts, since they've been part of an entrenched, desperate-to-hold patriarchy from birth...). That's not a great thing, of course, but it does give them a new situation -- so they can begin to make comparisons and potentially gain more of a sense of who they are and what the world is like. You at least need points of comparison to begin to do this (and they're not readers -- so they have to get those points from real life). 

I just don't think there was/is any room at the TTH for a Duggarling's real voice to have any influence (especially the girls' voices, if they vary even a little from the party line). So even if leaving is painful, to me it's still the best thing that could possibly happen to any of them in the long run. I actually think Jessa's in the worst position because her husband has totally capitulated to Duggardom, so she has no impetus not to do that as well. To my eyes, she's the most likely of the married girls to be the trapped and stagnating one in the long run. 

 

This is true. And the only girls that have quietly and subtly spoke their own minds, throughout the TV show, were Jana and Jinger. Jill, with the many upsets, including her not-by-her-book pregnancies and her time doing mission work with Derick might have sparked some what up Jesus moments. And then there's the JB/Derick feud. All this has given her opportunities to make some independent decisions and life is still okay. Jessa is going by the old, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, frame of mind and will continue on doing Gothard/Fundy, with the hope of reaping the same benefits that her parents did.

Regardless of headships and independence, unfortunately for Jessa, I'm guessing Joy, Jinger and Jill will have less financial worries than her, in the future. And that kind of matters too.

[Churchhoney]

45 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I do think Jeremy sees the Duggars as beneath him and he moved Jinger away to pursue his own ambitions. However, he will latch on to the Duggars as long as it profits him.

Derick is moving Jill away from her family because of his own personal feud with JB.

None of these guys are doing it for the personal well-being of their wives. They’re doing it for their own selfish reasons. Time will tell if it was the best for the girls or not.

Oh, I completely agree that they aren't doing it for their wives' sake! .... 

It's just that my experience suggests that a lot of people -- and especially women in patriarchy -- tend to do better and, especially, only manage to develop their own sense of self and their own voices, when they experience a significant separation from their families of origin. And that that can hold regardless of how the separation comes about. 

Also agree that only time will tell for the Duggars! 

[Oldernowiser]

5 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Does this mean I like Derick now?  I'm very confused.

It’s okay, honey. It’ll pass.

[BigBingerBro]

[Oldernowiser]

Oh FFS. Whose request might that be? I want actual names.

[emma675]

What tf would Jinger know about singleness? She's never been alone in her life.

[BitterApple]

By request? Sure, Jan.

[GeeGolly]

12 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Oh FFS. Whose request might that be? I want actual names.

Jana? Lawson? 

[Sew Sumi]

8 minutes ago, emma675 said:

What tf would Jinger know about singleness? She's never been alone in her life.

Crystal Ball Katie listened to it and played a part that answers this question. 

Jinger said all she wanted was to be a wife and mother. She regrets not pursuing any interests, including music, between the ages of 18-22. Then Jeremy butts in to ask what can you offer your children if you don't have any life experience. 

Ouch.

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Crystal Ball Katie listened to it and played a part that answers this question. 

Jinger said all she wanted was to be a wife and mother. She regrets not pursuing any interests, including music, between the ages of 18-22. Then Jeremy butts in to ask what can you offer your children if you don't have any life experience. 

Ouch.

Holy shit.

But my next question to Jinger would be, what's stopping her from pursuing her interests now? 

[Sew Sumi]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Holy shit.

But my next question to Jinger would be, what's stopping her from pursuing her interests now? 

I bet she'd answer that being a wife and mother is all-consuming. Her MIL pursued a Master's Degree in music, but I don't know if she was married at the time. No reason that Jinger couldn't take lessons.

[Future Cat Lady]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Holy shit.

But my next question to Jinger would be, what's stopping her from pursuing her interests now? 

Jeremy?

Would he allow her to take a class or a part time job?

He doesn't seem like a supportive guy. 

[Sew Sumi]

He might allow the music because it could further his ambitions. Beyond that, what interests did Jinger ever have? She seemed pretty aimless.

[JoanArc]

27 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Crystal Ball Katie listened to it and played a part that answers this question. 

Jinger said all she wanted was to be a wife and mother. She regrets not pursuing any interests, including music, between the ages of 18-22. Then Jeremy butts in to ask what can you offer your children if you don't have any life experience. 

Ouch.

Jesus Christ, I’d go straight for his balls.  It might help the ratings. 

 Just to defend jingle, she was never really allowed to develop interests, so it’s not like it was her choice. Wasn’t she into photography, too? 

[Liddy52]

9 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

He might allow the music because it could further his ambitions. Beyond that, what interests did Jinger ever have? She seemed pretty aimless.

At one time she was supposed to be interested in photography. 

[Sew Sumi]

I forgot about photography. She didn't mention it in the podcast. The last I heard of that, she took pictures for Jessa's pregnancy announcements.

[JoanArc]

Just now, Liddy52 said:

At one time she was supposed to be interested in photography. 

 Seem to recall her taking wedding photos for a few different families, I’m just taking pictures in general, reading up o. It, and having a nice camera.  I remember several comments saying she could’ve turned that into some sort of acceptable business. Or at least gone to some sort of art school. 

[Liddy52]

45 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Oh FFS. Whose request might that be? I want actual names.

And why would you ask that of a married couple,  neither of whom was single all that long? 

[BitterApple]

I felt bad for Jinger saying she had regrets, because it's not like Boob would've allowed her to pursue interests in the first place. Jana is 30, ffs, and can't even get a part time job.