S02.E23: The Race of His Life

[chelsie]

SG is on another earth, so they can get away with no changes. 

[Jenesis]

I think this will just be another way of showing Barry that you can't mess with time the way he has been doing. Not everything will wrap up neatly like it did with Hartley switching sides.

Hopefully, he'll finally see that the way things play out is for a reason and the only time it's ok is when he accidentally time travels.

I can't see the show runners totally changing everything. We are too deeply invested in the way the characters are now. Hell, I frowned when the Barry from the Season 1 finale disappeared when current Barry saved Nora. The only pone who'll change is Wells. We might get happy and in-love-with-Tess Wells and his daughter, Jesse.

[Lantern7]

Three things to share before comments:

1. "Run, you clever boy . . . and remember." "Whaaaaaaa?"

2. :"My name is Barry Allen. For the past two years, I have gone on many adventures. Made new friends. Visited new worlds. And learned what family is all about. And because I feel hollow inside, I'm going to choose not to learn any lessons and recreate Flashpoint. You know, the launching pad for a company-wide reboot that would led to another reboot inside five years. Right now, I'm looking to surpass Rip Hunter as the worst time traveler in the CWverse. That's Rip Hunter, a man who recruited Leonard Snart to save his wife and son, then took Mick Rory because why not?"

3. "DING!" "What was that?" "Well, Jay, I invented a device that goes 'ding' anytime Barry Allen makes a poor life decision. Five minutes . . . looks like Jesse owes me a Ekoc." "What's that?" "It's like Coke on Earth-1." "Is that anything like Crystal Pepsi on my world?" "Ye Gods . . . "

Didn't get chills seeing John Wesley Shipp in a hero outfit, but I'm glad "Jay Garrick" is a name for an actual hero. And I'm happy Barry wound up winning without somebody on the cast committing suicide to pull out the victory. Of course, I'm thinking the writers got desperate and ripped off the ending of Ghost.

[maczero]

6 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I don't think they can pull that off.  Its too big a gamble pissing of audiences of four shows simultaneously.  Audiences like their continuity.  Its doubtful that one show can turn itself on its head and be better.  Four shows, no way.  Add to that the feeling that there are no consequences and a reboot could happen at anytime.  Just, no.

And if I were a viewer of any of the other three and didn't watch Flash I would be super unhappy enough if another show that I didn't watch rebooted one I did.

If they don't undo this after an episode, then I think they'll go the route of the universe trying to regain equilibrium enough that changes to the other shows are minimal.  Supergirl ends up in the same verse.  But Barry has slightly delayed childhood trauma that is enough to give the same motivations that spurred Arrow interaction.  He still becomes the Flash, etc.

I believe DC did something similar with the new 52.  They reset the continuity but maintained that the popular storylines from the pre-New 52 era still happened.  I suppose it's a reasonable compromise. 

[phoenics]

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

I wonder how much this would have affected Supergirl if it had stayed on CBS?

Not at all probably - but they've been planning this for a long time I think.  Pretty sure they had an inkling that the show would move to the CW long time ago.

[ottoDbusdriver]

But won't the Time Wraiths show up to stop Barry ?  They showed up when he only went back a year earlier this season -- going back 16 years has got to trigger a swarm of Time Wraiths.

Isn't the speedforce going to be really upset that Barry is fucking with the timeline ?  Especially after they just gave him his speedforce back.

[quarks]

14 minutes ago, phoenics said:

 

It means Laurel/BC isn't dead anymore.  We'll probably see the Arrow as Oliver's dad help Barry get his powers back so he can go back and reset time somehow.

 

 

No, Laurel/BC is still dead, even with this reset. In fact she probably dies in season two. One of the following happens:

1. Oliver dies mid season two. Laurel either dies while investigating Sebastian Blood the following month (she was kidnapped again and rescued by Oliver) or since Felicity had no way of contacting Sara to find out about LoA poisons, when the LoA poisons her a few episodes later.

Even assuming Laurel survived either, with Oliver dead, H.I.V.E. nukes everyone two episodes ago. Laurel dies. The only change here is that H.I.V.E. might build their underground dome someplace else, but Damien Darhk started up his nuke plan at least as far back as 1975, and Damien has barely interacted with Barry. This changes nothing about the H.I.V.E. plot.

2. Oliver doesn't die mid season two.  Malcolm Merlyn, however, is still trying to escape/take over the League of Assassins (that plot started before Barry arrived in Starling City); Team Arrow ends up in Nanda Parbat, and is gassed to death because Barry can't run and safe them. Laurel dies.

3. Oliver doesn't die mid season two. Kendra still becomes Hawkgirl (that's separate from Barry.) Laurel is visiting her mother in Central City when Vandal Savage pulls his next move. Laurel dies.

4. Barry's time reset doesn't change Arrow as much as it should, and Laurel dies this season.

Regardless, Laurel either dies in season two because Oliver and thus Sara aren't there to rescue her, or she dies in Central City visiting her mother, or she's killed by Damien's nukes this season.

In related news, Barry, you really need to talk to more people before pulling a stunt like this. This is all great for improving YOUR life, but the planet has other people!

[phoenics]

8 minutes ago, chelsie said:

SG is on another earth, so they can get away with no changes. 

Not if they merge all the earths.  See Flashpoint.

[ParadoxLost]

My memory for this stuff is crap so this spec might be preposterous.

But if Barry doesn't get taken by the time wraiths, then he has to live though the timeline so we'll potentially have old Barry and young Barry once they fast forward in the timeline to current time.  If that happens then old Barry is next season super villain.  Calling it now.

How close to prior timelines was Barry's Dad get tossed to the side when Barry's Mom was murdered?  Because I came away from that thinking there was a good chance that in saving his Mom, Barry's Dad accidentally got killed.  So young Barry's childhood angst is that the red flash killed his father and when he time travels, he learns that it was him and maybe that knocks the time travel out of him.  Probably not, he'll just go back and there will be three Flashes and one Reverse Flash.  At some point there is going to be a farcical party scene where a hundred Flashes cram into the room with a variety of agendas.

I think the biggest clue to whether they are going to reset everything will be Arrow.  If they do something massively upsetting or make shippers very happy in their finale then it will reset every show to some extent.

Edited May 25, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[johntfs]

47 minutes ago, quarks said:

Glad to see everyone shares my confusion!  And SEE what happens when you take out the Time Masters, Rip? THIS! THIS HAPPENS!

Thing is, assuming The Flash sticks with this, this doesn't just reset The Flash, right? It also resets Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow, because if Barry really did reset time, and his mother isn't murdered, and his father doesn't go to jail, which means -

1. Barry has no reason to create his murder board and get interested in strange cases, which means

2. he doesn't show up on Arrow season two, which means 

3. Oliver Queen either dies after facing the Mirakuru soldiers or has his identity revealed if Felicity and Diggle take him to the hospital, and he's arrested, either of which means -

4. Roy dies in episode 209, which means -

5. Things just get more tangled from there.

1.  Sure he does.  Instead of being obsessed with the weird circumstances of his mother's death, he's obsessed by the weird circumstances that saved her (and his) life.  His dad doesn't go to jail, which means -

2.  He's not raised by Joe and thus isn't drawn to dating his own sister, however foster and/or adoptive she may be.  He can still show up on Arrow, though -

3.  And save Oliver's life and secret identity.  Also, without Barry "the living incarnation of bad shit happening to good people" Allen as his foster son, maybe Joe will be a little looser with Iris and let her go to the police academy to be a badass cop.

4.  Roy doesn't die.  Also, the particle accelerator is a little less "Barry focused" since Thawne isn't Harrison Wells and more metas are created, much like Earth 2.  Perhaps Caitlin will be a less evil but still kind of awesome Killer Frost in this new timeline.

5.  So what we really have here is the writers getting a chance to do some needed corrective surgery after two years of seeing what people like and dislike, what works and what doesn't.  Things just get more awesome from there.

Edited May 25, 2016 by johntfs

[jmonique]

12 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

And I'm happy Barry wound up winning without somebody on the cast committing suicide to pull out the victory.

Well, Time Remnant Barry did. I've watched a lot of stupid, superhero/fantasy/sci-fi crap in my life, and I'll follow along with a lot, but for the record, I don't understand the Time Remnant Thing.

Does this mean Eddie lives?

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, quarks said:

 

No, Laurel/BC is still dead, even with this reset. In fact she probably dies in season two. One of the following happens:

1. Oliver dies mid season two. Laurel either dies while investigating Sebastian Blood the following month (she was kidnapped again and rescued by Oliver) or since Felicity had no way of contacting Sara to find out about LoA poisons, when the LoA poisons her a few episodes later.

Even assuming Laurel survived either, with Oliver dead, H.I.V.E. nukes everyone two episodes ago. Laurel dies. The only change here is that H.I.V.E. might build their underground dome someplace else, but Damien Darhk started up his nuke plan at least as far back as 1975, and Damien has barely interacted with Barry. This changes nothing about the H.I.V.E. plot.

2. Oliver doesn't die mid season two.  Malcolm Merlyn, however, is still trying to escape/take over the League of Assassins (that plot started before Barry arrived in Starling City); Team Arrow ends up in Nanda Parbat, and is gassed to death because Barry can't run and safe them. Laurel dies.

3. Oliver doesn't die mid season two. Kendra still becomes Hawkgirl (that's separate from Barry.) Laurel is visiting her mother in Central City when Vandal Savage pulls his next move. Laurel dies.

4. Barry's time reset doesn't change Arrow as much as it should, and Laurel dies this season.

Regardless, Laurel either dies in season two because Oliver and thus Sara aren't there to rescue her, or she dies in Central City visiting her mother, or she's killed by Damien's nukes this season.

In related news, Barry, you really need to talk to more people before pulling a stunt like this. This is all great for improving YOUR life, but the planet has other people!

I don't think you are understanding what I mean.  If Barry changes the timeline from when he was ELEVEN YEARS OLD then none of what you are even talking about happens at all.  Because his actions would change the history of the world.  Oliver is about the same age as Barry, so his life would be altered.  Maybe HE dies instead of his father?  See the rest in spoilers so I don't spoil this for folks who don't know the comics.

In Flashpoint, Batman isn't Bruce Wayne - they make him die instead of his parents and his dad becomes batman.  So that would mean Oliver Queen's dad would become the Arrow.  None of the Laurel stuff you are talking about would happen.  Felicity might not even exist.  Nor Diggle.  Iris marries someone else and Lois is captured.  Barry is trapped in this altered universe with no powers to fix what he did.  So Arrow (Oliver's dad) will probably help him get his powers back (just like Batman (Bruce's dad) did) and then he will reset the universe.  In Flashpoint, when he does this, some mysterious entity tells him that all of the alternate Earths need to be merged into one so that all of the heroes are strong enough to take down some future evil threat... so all of the Earths are merged which creates the new 52 Universe.  

That's why I'm saying that they could literally reboot ALL OF THE SHOWS in Flarrow.  That's what new 52 means.  So in the new reboot, Laurel could be alive, etc., the real Harrison Wells could be alive, etc..  It's confusing I know.

[phoenics]

31 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I don't think they can pull that off.  Its too big a gamble pissing of audiences of four shows simultaneously.  Audiences like their continuity.  Its doubtful that one show can turn itself on its head and be better.  Four shows, no way.  Add to that the feeling that there are no consequences and a reboot could happen at anytime.  Just, no.

And if I were a viewer of any of the other three and didn't watch Flash I would be super unhappy enough if another show that I didn't watch rebooted one I did.

If they don't undo this after an episode, then I think they'll go the route of the universe trying to regain equilibrium enough that changes to the other shows are minimal.  Supergirl ends up in the same verse.  But Barry has slightly delayed childhood trauma that is enough to give the same motivations that spurred Arrow interaction.  He still becomes the Flash, etc.

IKR?!  I mean - my head hurts thinking through the possibilities... it's like a show that can continually "Dallas" itself over and over again - but I think the point is that they needed to get Barry to the point where he will finally accept his life the way it is.  I mean - those of us who have read Flashpoint know how this turns out so ...   I think the real question is whether they will go back to the original timeline or whether they will give us a new 52. 

[Lantern7]

Forgot about Remnant Barry. Hey, we were going to get a Crisis On Infinite Earths shout-out one of these days.

[phoenics]

9 minutes ago, johntfs said:

1.  Sure he does.  Instead of being obsessed with the weird circumstances of his mother's death, he's obsessed by the weird circumstances that saved her (and his) life.  His dad doesn't go to jail, which means -

2.  He's not raised by Joe and thus isn't drawn to dating his own sister, however foster and/or adoptive she may be.  He can still show up on Arrow, though -

3.  And save Oliver's life and secret identity.  Also, without Barry "the living incarnation of bad shit happening to good people" Allen as his foster son, maybe Joe will be a little looser with Iris and let her go to the police academy to be a badass cop.

4.  Roy doesn't die.  Also, the particle accelerator is a little less "Barry focused" since Thawne isn't Harrison Wells and more metas are created, much like Earth 2.  Perhaps Caitlin will be a less evil but still kind of awesome Killer Frost in this new timeline.

5.  So what we really have here is the writers getting a chance to do some needed corrective surgery after two years of seeing what people like and dislike, what works and what doesn't.  Things just get more awesome from there.

But first they have to show us how effed up it gets...

Like in Flashpoint!

[bmoore4026]

No!  No!  Bad Flash!  Flash bad!  No one wanted Flashpoint!  NO ONE!  You go stand in the corner at the edge of the multiverse and think about what you did, Barry.

I was actually quite surprised that

Spoiler

an Alternate Earth Daddy Flash was the real Jay Garrick.  I was expecting a man who looked just like Zoom.  But John Wesley Shipp stays on the show, so that's good.  Now he and a bunch of other 50-somethings from Earth 2 can create the JSA  :)

Edited May 25, 2016 by bmoore4026

[pookat]

Who wants to bet that S3 opens with Nora Allen hitting the Scarlet Speedster with a table lamp for breaking in and terrifying her family (but really for viewers mad at Barry for torpedoing yet another timeline)?

Edited May 25, 2016 by pookat

[johntfs]

7 minutes ago, pookat said:

Who wants to bet that S3 opens with Nora Allen hitting the Scarlet Speedster with a table lamp for breaking in and terrifying her family (but really for viewers mad at Barry for torpedoing yet another timeline)?

The continuation of that timeline would have been no Harrison Wells/Cisco snark combined with sad Caitlin, multiplied by needy Iris pining for mopey Barry.  Fuck that timeline, I want to see what went down in the new one.

[catrox14]

The fuck did you do, BARRY???  Ugh.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Well, nice to know that we can predict time/history changes as prefaced by WA kisses.  2 for 2 now.

I love the 'idea' of a Flashpoint Paradox from a sci-fi & comics fanboy pov, but its really difficult to invest in a show when you know that it can be reset at any time.  I mean, seriously, what can Barry possibly be thinking with this?  Does he plan on running back to the future right away, and just rolling with whatever the changes caused are??  I'm sure Barry has it locked down, though, I mean its only like nearly 15 years of completely rewritten history to emerge in to; easy-peasy!

Pulling something like this should reset (at least) Arrow - if not the whole multiverse [Supergirl now included] - but it won't.  And that makes all of the last couple minutes of the finale a total waste & a need to reiterate that an overly emotional BA is too dumb to be left to his own devices. 

Could S3 be awesome?  Yeah, but its got a lot to prove and answer for as of right now.

[quarks]

Phoenics, for the record, yes, I've read Flashpoint.  But you're missing my point. You announced that - of all the things that could be changed by this - Laurel/BC would be alive. If you're wrong, and this only resets what Barry has done since the age of 11, that's actually the one Arrow plot point that wouldn't change, just because of how many times Laurel has escaped death - sometimes directly thanks to Barry.  And if you're right - if everything is changed to the point where Felicity and Diggle might not even exist, then it's equally possible that Laurel/BC never existed/might not have existed either, and/or that Laurel never became the BC. You leapt to the immediate conclusion that Laurel/BC is alive, and there's little argument for this. JohnTFS makes a better argument, but there's still the problem of the Vandal Savage attack (Laurel was the one Arrow character in Central City there at the time) and the H.I.V.E. attacks this year, and the huge problem that Rip Hunter said that Laurel dies regardless.

Anyway, moving on to the rest of the episode:

Good things:

1. The ending really was a decent twist, and got people talking, if nothing else. Kudos for that.

2. Yay, Jesse finally was allowed some choice in her life! About time!

3. Zoom lampshading all of Barry's father figures.

4. It was terribly corny, and hardly worth all of the speculation, but I admit I did like seeing the 90s Flash revealed as Jay Garrick, hero. YAY!

5. Some of the special racing effects were really beautifully done. I also really liked the shot of the umbrellas at the funeral.

Questionable things:

1. Not thrilled with Iris basically saying that she'll put her life on hold for Barry because Barry did it for her. Uh, Barry did not wait for you, Iris. He pined after you, but in the meantime, he went out with Felicity, Linda and Patty. And possibly others that we don't know of. I realize what the scene was going for, but still.

2. And speaking of Iris, I thought she was far too resigned to Joe's disappearance, but maybe she had just finally realized she'd never be his favorite kid anyway and her life would be better now.

3. I'd ask how Wally just waltzed into Star Labs, but since everyone does, I'll handwave that. What I'm less interested in handwaving is how Wally was able to release Barry from his cell. Guys, these are not going to be very functional cells if just anyone can walk in and open them.

4. Yay, Team Flash, for locking Barry up, especially given his move at the end of the episode, minus several points for trying to take him down yourselves without Barry. Wally had a point there -

5. Maybe. Barry, if Zoom wants you to race him really really fast so he can destroy multiverses maybe - just maybe - it's not a great idea to go along with this plan. What if the Time Dementors hadn't shown up? Or taken you instead as punishment for being an idiot.

6. I kinda get that Barry knows that some of his time resets have worked out well and actually helped people. Still, most of those were to do things like stop Vandal Savage from taking out an entire city, or stop a tidal wave from taking out an entire city, or...I think you see my point here. Stopping his mother's murder? Not quite on the same level. 

7. Really, CW/Berlanti/Arrowverse? Telling us that the Arrowverse is the center of the multiverses? 

Bad things:

1. This episode really seemed to drag up until the last 30 seconds. 

2. How on earth was Zoom convinced by Caitlin's little speech about darkness there? I realize he's a villain and not all there mentally, but it was a very unconvincing speech.

Edited May 25, 2016 by quarks

[Trini]

49 minutes ago, quarks said:

In related news, Barry, you really need to talk to more people before pulling a stunt like this. This is all great for improving YOUR life, but the planet has other people!

Agreed. On the other hand, if he saves his mother, Future Flash doesn't have a reason to go back in time causing a singularity, which opens Earth-1 to Zoom and related havok; so he saved everyone from that.

Spoiler

...But of course, things could also get worse without all that; AKA Flashpoint Paradox.

[ruby24]

I wasn't a big fan of this episode. Something felt off about it, especially the ending. I can't see them undoing everything, I mean, are they really going to do that?

Will they bring it back but have some things be different? I feel kind of baffled by this, to be honest.

[phoenics]

20 minutes ago, quarks said:

Phoenics, for the record, yes, I've read Flashpoint.  But you're missing my point. You announced that - of all the things that could be changed by this - Laurel/BC would be alive. If you're wrong, and this only resets what Barry has done since the age of 11, that's actually the one Arrow plot point that wouldn't change, just because of how many times Laurel has escaped death - sometimes directly thanks to Barry.  And if you're right - if everything is changed to the point where Felicity and Diggle might not even exist, then it's equally possible that Laurel/BC never existed/might not have existed either, and/or that Laurel never became the BC. You leapt to the immediate conclusion that Laurel/BC is alive, and there's little argument for this. JohnTFS makes a better argument, but there's still the problem of the Vandal Savage attack (Laurel was the one Arrow character in Central City there at the time) and the H.I.V.E. attacks this year, and the huge problem that Rip Hunter said that Laurel dies regardless.

Anyway, moving on to the rest of the episode:

 

Actually - I mentioned Laurel not being dead as one possibility - Moira Queen might not be dead either.  Iris' mom might not be dead either, etc..  We could also have KF.  

I'm mostly referring to how the writers doing a new 52 could change anything, and that includes Laurel/BC being alive.

And I was simply stating my thoughts about what happened.  Laurel/BC being alive was one thought that I managed to get out in an early post (my mind was blown), but it's one of a whole host of possibilities.  And I don't want LoT, so I think the point you made about Rip saying Laurel dies regardless means she probably won't be alive - on E1.  But she could be alive on other earths - Flashpoint isn't just about timelines, it's about merging Earths.  Which means she could still be alive.

A lot of characters could be alive now if we get a new 52 kind of storyline.

I'm mostly wondering if the writers have the guts/cajones to actually do that.  Not convinced they do, but it will be interesting.

I agree with your points about the good/bad of the episode.  

Edited May 25, 2016 by phoenics

[Cthulhudrew]

On top of all the other stupidity that everyone else here has already mentioned, they compounded it by turning Zoom into the Flarrowverse version of a Sith Lord. "Muahahaa! Give in, Barry! Give in to the Dark Side! Embrace your anger! Become like me! Like meeeeeeeheeheeheeeee!!!"

They should have had him grow out a moustache he could twirl maniacally.

Gah.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Cthulhudrew

[ElleMo]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

If they don't undo this after an episode, then I think they'll go the route of the universe trying to regain equilibrium enough that changes to the other shows are minimal.  Supergirl ends up in the same verse.  But Barry has slightly delayed childhood trauma that is enough to give the same motivations that spurred Arrow interaction.  He still becomes the Flash, etc.

I like that idea.  Like how the Enterprise ended up with basically the same bridge crew plus Scotty in the new flicks.  

Well, we had an inkling this was coming  when Barry was stopped from saving his mom by his future self.  If he hadn't already saved his mom at some point, why would he stop himself?

I don't like the idea of it affecting the timeline of all the shows, but I am afraid it may.  Rip Hunter made it very clear that if Sarah had been there when Laurel faced Darhk, Sarah and Quentin would be dead too.  That makes me think that we will see this happen at some point and I wonder if Barry could be the catalyst.  I am hoping I am wrong and it is a one-off episode and that it is resolved in the season premier.

 

But if they could find a way to bring back Snart, I'd be ok with that.

[Lady Calypso]

Well, that was the finale. I see they wanted to one up the last season finale. 

Listen, this going back in time and changing your mother's murder stuff may work out for you, Barry, but it could also cause some very bad things to happen. Some things I can think of on the top of my head:

-Barry's parents are alive and they've taken care of Barry, but that could mean Joe and Iris never took Barry in, so Barry and Iris may not be close in any way. Like the opposite of Earth-2 Barry/Iris. 

-Harrison Wells is Harrison Wells, so he'll be happy with his wife and I guess his now Earth-1 Jesse. But that also means that the particle accelerator explosion wouldn't have happened; at least, not yet I imagine. 

-Cisco and Caitlin may or may not have ever worked at Star Labs. I guess this could mean Ronnie's still alive, but possibly not even with Caitlin.

-Eddie's most likely alive, unless something has happened to him in this new timeline, so that's a plus. 

-Barry may have a completely different job, so he wouldn't have worked with Joe or Eddie. 

-And all this does is completely mess up the timelines for the other Flarrow-verse shows. Such as Arrow, in which they never met Barry Allen, Oliver may have died in season 2, which means Slade would have destroyed Starling City....or hell, anything worse could have happened such AS events changing and a character dying over another. 

Basically, there has to be consequences and not just on this show. I am curious to see how they get out of this, because I can only imagine that they wouldn't want to reset Arrow, Legends or possibly even Supergirl (though the latter may be safe). 

Onto other things:

The good include John Wesley Shipp still being able to maybe make appearances down the road, even if he's not Henry Allen anymore. I mean, we still have Earth-2 Henry, at the very least...depending on how they fix this paradox. Either way, no matter what happens, we get to keep John around for another season. They didn't do much with Henry, so it's not that big of a disappointment. 

Barry was smart in defeating Zoom! Everyone else didn't really help that much as all it did was get Joe kidnapped. But Barry did something on his own and it worked! 

Wally! He is definitely a bright spot in this finale. I like the guy a lot and I feel bad that he's just getting involved in all of this. But he got a small moment with Jesse, so good for him.

Zoom's dead! Finally!

And onto not so great things:

Barry.....dude, you had one job! Don't mess with time travel! Goddamnit! 

Westallen gets another kiss...and time resets itself AGAIN. Goddamnit!

Iris, I get that you guys made a plan or whatever, but your dad was just kidnapped by Zoom. He's already killed Henry. Why are you do easily accepting your dad's fate? Plus, you know Barry just lost one father. I'm pretty sure he won't be happy by your decision to sacrifice another. 

Time travel....this is why shows that involve time travel become one big mess if continued for too long. Although, I mean I thought things would heavily change after last season's finale and it ended up not being as big of a deal, so....I just can't wait to see them get out of this by the second episode. I'm just pissed that Barry apparently has not learned his lesson....THREE TIMES NOW. I mean, three times as in he hasn't moved on three separate times. 

You see, show? This is what happens when you kill people off. It destroys timelines. 

Caitlin....you're such a bad actress. That was just....wow, I even was taken out of that scene by her acting. 

[Actionmage]

Well, Barry's other two dads survived and the Garrick mention, as well as the spec as to who that Masked Man was, came to fruition. Kudos to those who were steadfast in their JWS devotion/spec!  Harry and Jesse got to go home, so that was nice; they got to live.

I read Iris's reactions to Joe being pulled to Earth-2 as her compartmentalizing. She'd break down away from everyone, after she a) helped Barry and Wally and b) helped get Zoom defeated. I loved that she was supportive, even in the face of that horrible "argument" that Caitlin was ready to unleash her dark side.

I have thoughts on Barry's reactions to things, but there are better places for that.

I hope that we somehow get Jesse and Harry back. Wally and Jesse seemed to have a nice potential friend chemistry.

I am not interested in a Flashpoint Paradox. I saw the animated version and did not enjoy the story at all. If there is a shortcut way to show Barry how idiotic his season-ending move was, then may Robert Queen shoot his ass so full of arrows that Barry looks like a freaking Thanksgiving turkey! Then, maybe? We can get down to some S1-esque fighting of bad guys and discovering various metas- good as well as bad? With some visits from his Arrow and Legends friends. And Super-friends.

 

But that's for next season. This season felt like a mess for too much of it. The show also felt like it didn't fully trust itself or us. Then the pacing. It wasn't so horrible I couldn't watch, but the season just felt so long and drawn-out to where I just wanted the show to Get. To. The. Point. Just not the Flashpoint. Again, some more.

[phoenics]

7 minutes ago, Actionmage said:

I just wanted the show to Get. To. The. Point. Just not the Flashpoint. 

This made me laugh.

I still don't know how I feel about the finale.  All of my theorizing and thinking about what this means and whether they will really do Flashpoint and the new 52 after that or whatever is literally a coping mechanism, lol.

[ElleMo]

Few questions not about the time jump:

What was the point of pushing Zoom into Earth 2?  It appears he can open portals on his own so closing portals on this earth really wouldn't help.  

But assuming he cannot make it back to Earth 1, you are leaving the  Earth 2 to the mercy of Zoom.  Why is this a good thing and why did Jesse agree to this? She made it a point to say that she has friends there.  Does she want them to be terrorized by Zoom? 

So since Jay was not from Earth 2 and not from SG's world (she never heard of the Flash) we now have an Earth 4 in the mix?  

Did Barry tell anyone about Supergirl?

Edited May 25, 2016 by ElleMo

[benteen]

I said last year that Barry was not the hero of this story but the villain.  I stand by that story.  It's horrifying to think that the world is at the mercy of this selfish man-child who constantly uses his powers to not only alter time but to play Russian Roulette with the entire planet and the universe itself.  How does the speed force allow him to keep his powers when he always does so much damage with them?  Barry is the only guy who has had two parents brutally murdered that I DON'T feel sorry for.

Edited May 25, 2016 by benteen

[driedfruit]

Cool, but I think I've watched enough of this show. Supergirl and Arrow aren't for me, Legends lost me without Cold, and Flash is mildly interesting, but not enough for me to bother with a four headed monster this universe has become. I don't mind crossovers in theory, but when there's maybe 5max characters I like in the entire universe things get tired. And the plots in these shows are so hideously bad, even compared to the network's typical standard. What's left?

Off to finish Steins Gate and enjoy decent time travel sci fi.

Edited May 25, 2016 by driedfruit

[snarktini]

Halfway through -- Wally has pulled him out of the cell and he's doing his Righteous But Stupid Barry Routine -- and I turned it off. I just can't. Not right now. Maybe later.

I truly don't understand how one hears that if you accept the dare to race, Zoom will harness your energy and thus have the power to destroy ALL WORLDS, and your response is, "I must race him!". Kinda hating Barry right now.

[phoenics]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

I said last year that Barry was not the hero of this story but the villain.  I stand by that story.  It's horrifying to think that the world is at the mercy of this selfish man-child who constantly uses his powers to not only alter time but to play Russian Roulette with the entire planet and the universe itself.  How does the speed force allow him to keep his powers when he always does so much damage with them?  Barry is the only guy who has had two parents brutally murdered that I DON'T feel sorry for.

My sad, futile hope is that this time, Barry will FINALLY get it and FINALLY accept his life as it is and learn that bad stuff happens to good people.  The Speed Force warned him that bad stuff would still happen to him, but I don't think he could accept it.  He accepted his mom but couldn't accept his father dying like that.  I think that whatever world-ending crap happens because he went back to save his mother will force him to reset things back to this timeline (or something kinda similar) and maybe that will be the end of him changing stuff.

Except unintentionally.

[benteen]

I was really hoping for a fresh start with Season 3 and a threat that wasn't caused by Barry's stupidity but that was asking too much.  I wanted to see Flashpoint, which should be great with the DC television universe.  But this show hasn't been the same for me since 2/3s of the way past Season 1 and I'm tired of Barry's stupidity, selfishness and now the increasingly convoluted time and world plots.

I was happy that Barry's enablers finally stood up to him and told him no but of course that didn't last.  Barry wants to play Russian Roulette with the multiverse after all.  Selfish Barry has no right to be upset with them.  The enablers plans to stop Zoom was actually a good one until it became clear they only wanted to trap Zoom.  How about emptying your gun into Zoom's head, Joe.  That will finish him for good.

I did love the reveal of John Wesley Shipp as Jay Garrick (would have loved it to be 1990 Flash but so be it).  Hopefully we'll be seeing him again next year.

Quote

2. And speaking of Iris, I thought she was far too resigned to Joe's disappearance, but maybe she had just finally realized she'd never be his favorite kid anyway and her life would be better now.

Heheh.  Sad but true.  It's clear that with Wally on the scene, Iris is a solid #3 among Joe's favorite children.

Edited May 25, 2016 by benteen

[Artsda]

I'm so confused! Barry just ruined the time line and now his mom is alive? 

I wouldn't mind Barry and Iris, if he wasn't so much Joe's son. Calls him grandpa, calls him dad. Lives and grew up in the house, his picture everywhere like a son. Barry and Iris ick me out because of that.

[VCRTracking]

I thought Barry in the "Flashpoint" comics was being selfish then and I think TV Barry is being just as selfish.

[blugirlami21]

I'm just so disappointed. I love Barry, he's a great character for the most part but this time traveling shit has to stop. It's not an effective problem solver. Ever. Not ever. 

I get it. He just lost his last living genetic relative. They were murdered right before his eyes. The pain must be unbearable but how does that equal you going back in time 16 years to save your mother from being murdered? You claimed you came to terms with her death. Why didn't you try to save your father? Going so far back in time doesn't just affect you. You've changed the lives of everyone you know without their consent or knowledge. It's extremely selfish.

I actually thought he was going to pull a Buffy and go be someone else for a while except he can do it in a whole nother' universe. That would have been preferable to this.

Just thinking about the repercussionsof his actions gives me a headache.

[La Dee Da]

Maybe the show can have its cake and gleefully smash into people's faces by (1) starting the next season with a freaked out Barry telling his fourth parental figure - the speed force - that he made a horrible mistake and wants things to go back to the way they were.  The Speed force allows the course correction, warning that there will be consequences.  Everything starts to go back to normal... but an evil speedster from the the new timeline (probably a familiar face to be revealed later) realizes what's going on and makes it into the old timeline!  S/he And a super guilty feeling Barry then fight over the entire season to make their timeline the true timeline.  And (2) the show has flash sideways, like the last season of Lost, showing what the alternative reality would be and why Barry was afraid.  They'd get to do fun Earth 2 style shenanigans, like Iris being a cop or different super hero buddies from other cities.  Hmmmmmmm?  

Edited May 25, 2016 by La Dee Da

[CabotCove]

Quote

Damn, Caitlyn is a worse actress than Danielle Panabaker.

Kinda make sense since she was a hologram.

Quote

I don't think you are understanding what I mean.  If Barry changes the timeline from when he was ELEVEN YEARS OLD then none of what you are even talking about happens at all.  Because his actions would change the history of the world.  Oliver is about the same age as Barry, so his life would be altered.  Maybe HE dies instead of his father?

Barry's life/world will change, but it doesnt necessarily mean Oliver's will. Barry's actions are likely to change his own life, his family, friends and Central City (due to more criminals no Flash).  I would think Oliver would still have the same childhood, get on the gambit and become Green Arrow.  But I guess it depends on what kind of reset they are going for.

Quote

 I mentioned Laurel not being dead as one possibility - Moira Queen might not be dead either.  Iris' mom might not be dead either, etc..  We could also have KF. 

I dont think she will come back because Arrow writers dont want her too, but its a valid speculation/theory like any other. LOL some people dont like her and will do anything to knock the possibility of her or any of her dopplegangers returning in this universe. Like anything can change but this is the only thing that can stay fixed forever and ever?, yeah right.

Edited May 25, 2016 by WildcardC

[futurechemist]

I kind of feel the first 55 minutes needs to be reviewed separately from the last 5.

I suppose it was poetic that Zoom was defeated by his own hubris.  He could have run on the giant hamster wheel alone for twice as long, but just needed to prove he was superior to Barry.  

It was a nice little shoutout that John Wesley Shipp is a Flash again.  Though it was way too rushed through - Barry's father died last episode, here's a doppleganger for about 5 minutes.

And then the last 5 minutes.  Oy.  I am so confused.  Aren't there now like 5 different Barry's in that house the day is mother died?  I can't keep track.  And I'm inclined to dislike giant paradox stories because either the paradox story needs to be fully reset making it meaningless, or whatever came before is irreversibly changed, making that meaningless.  Either way, something is going to wind up not mattering.  And the only way for it to work is if the paradox story is so entertaining that it's okay that it doesn't matter, which is a fairly high bar.

[twoods]

Make good choices, Barry! Gah. I just can't with him saving his mother. What is he thinking? And another time set after a WestAllen kiss so technically they haven't kissed yet? After such a great scene with Iris saying that she will let him heal and wait for him, he goes off and pretty much resets a timeline which he probably isn't in love with Iris. 

It sucks to be a WestAllen shipper.

Awww I wanted to see Wally and Jessie cuteness. I will miss the Harry/Cisco bromance unless the real Harrison will be back next season. 

[Actionmage]

Quote

Everyone else didn't really help that much as all it did was get Joe kidnapped.

If Joe's tranq gun hadn't jammed or he had been able to get sideways enough, Joe could have been safe and the plan would have gone off as thought. Folks did not take into account needing a back-up tranq gun.  They weren't useless, just not as into redundancies as Malcolm Merlyn over on Arrow. Plus, they all knew that their plan could go wrong and ahead of time agreed that they would stick to the plan of denying Zoom's Earth-1 platform. ( He needed Earth-1 intact so he could destroy the other infinite number of Earths with the Mercury Labs machine. The smaller white one with the ball on a stem.)

Quote

I actually thought he was going to pull a Buffy and go be someone else for a while except he can do it in a whole nother' universe. That would have been preferable to this.

I was thinking that too. A cross between Buffy and Kung Fu.

 

Quote

 How about emptying your gun into Zoom's head, Joe.  That will finish him for good.

My husband has been advocating finding a sniper and having a sniper take out Zoom for a great number of episodes. Surely the police have/ had one.

 

Quote

But if they could find a way to bring back Snart, I'd be ok with that.

Captain Cold/ Leonard Snart is supposed to resurface among the shows.

 

Quote

Awww I wanted to see Wally and Jessie cuteness.

IKR?! More please, even if it's a C- or D- plot; it can merge with the bigger plot later in the season. Whatever story those two can get.

[ruby24]

They seem intent on wanting to make Barry as miserable as humanly possible. WHY???

This is bad. I feel like they've totally lost control of why people liked the show in the first season. A bright, sunny, optimistic superhero. A fun, funny lighthearted show.

I guess Geoff Johns left and took his vision with him, because now it's like they've totally decided to throw all that away for way too much depressing shit. I mean, they literally had Barry say that he's a broken person who can never be whole now? Oy. I don't watch Arrow for a reason.

They have a way out of this if they want it. Barry realizes his mistake and fixes the timeline, comes back to present time and does NOT push Iris away, but instead decides, like she said herself, to let their love blossom as a good thing instead. That's the natural path sitting there if they figure out they need to make the show joyous again, which I HOPE they do. And for the love of god people, please take that path. I don't want to watch a brooding, angsty show- that's NOT what this was in the first season.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

And if you're right - if everything is changed to the point where Felicity and Diggle might not even exist

Woo-hoo!  I'm on board with that!

[Trini]

2 hours ago, snarktini said:

I truly don't understand how one hears that if you accept the dare to race, Zoom will harness your energy and thus have the power to destroy ALL WORLDS, and your response is, "I must race him!". Kinda hating Barry right now.

He had a backup plan that worked, though. However I highly doubt he planned the time wraiths (which still make no sense) killing(?) Zoom for him.

------

Time travel always screws things up, but why couldn't Barry just go back to save his father? We JUST had a whole episode about him accepting his mother's death.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Trini

[CabotCove]

Quote

Time travel always screws things up, but why couldn't Barry just go back to save his father? We JUST had a whole episode about him accepting her death.

He has the choice to get them both back, all three of them back together again, why wouldn't he? Sure its stupid, but he was in a lot of pain, pain from everything. 

Quote

I guess Geoff Johns left and took his vision with him, because now it's like they've totally decided to throw all that away for way too much depressing shit. I mean, they literally had Barry say that he's a broken person who can never be whole now?

I guess he did. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by WildcardC

[millennium]

I stopped regularly reading/collecting comics long before Flashpoint came along.   Fortunately, my familiarity with comics enables me to grasp (sort of) what Flashpoint and its repercussions were about.  But doesn't the show risk confusing and alienating the average viewer who may not have years of comic books experience?   All this time travel, paradoxes and "time remnants," etc. might be cool to discuss when high, but when all you want to do is sit down and enjoy a TV show it just seems like too much work.

[Xenith22]

Quote

"My name is Barry Allen. For the past two years, I have gone on many adventures. Made new friends. Visited new worlds. And learned what family is all about. And because I feel hollow inside, I'm going to choose not to learn any lessons and recreate Flashpoint. You know, the launching pad for a company-wide reboot that would led to another reboot inside five years. Right now, I'm looking to surpass Rip Hunter as the worst time traveler in the CWverse. That's Rip Hunter, a man who recruited Leonard Snart to save his wife and son, then took Mick Rory because why not?"

Maybe Gideon can point Rip and the Legends into hunting down and stopping Barry as their next objective...

Seriously though Flashpoint doesn't make sense here?  Sure while technically it was Barry saving Nora that caused Flashpoint it wasn't actually the fact that Nora lived that was to blame for 99% of events?  The major changes to history were caused by two things the first was Barry pulling the entire Speedforce (aka a vital cosmic force interwoven with all reality) into himself in order to defeat Zoom in that instant.  The second was Zoom himself altering some events since he was now a paradox independent of the Flash.   There was nothing about the way that Barry ambushed Reverse Flash that to me indicated it necessitated that he absorbed the full speed force to do it?  I mean he certainly would not have needed to because we have already established that Barry is now much faster than Thawne was at this point in time with how easily he dispatched his time remnant?  The RF as paradox thing also runs contrary to what we saw with Eddie's death removing his existence.  RF can not dramatically muck with things without endangering his own existence (assuming Barry even still becomes the Flash)?

There is no guarantee (in universe) that Barry will become the Flash again.  I mean at this point he could only sort of hope that since Earth-2 Harry also built and exploding particle accelerator that it meant that Earth-1 would have had he not been killed by Thawne because of Speedforce destiny? (Assuming he did not piss off the cosmic force that is the Speedforce which flat out told him to get over his mom's death and that he would have to accept more losses in the future and move forward...and he just did the complete opposite.)  Clearly he needs to become the Flash again...because even if there were no particle accelerator explosion and thus no metas on Earth-1 Central City to deal with there is still Earth-2 and Zoom.   No Barry as Flash means he has just completely screwed over that entire world, and that he better hope that Zoom does not get bored without discovering Earth-1 and thus decide to use his hamster wheel of doom over there using his time remnants as power (why did he really need Barry if he can create easy clones of himself whom could conceivably combine their energy?) to wipe out the multiverse...

On a different note...Barry took the time to show up and support Oliver at Laurel's funeral.  Really not cool that Oliver or Felicity would not reciprocate and support him at the funeral for his freaking Dad.   There better be a really good explanation of Arrow tomorrow.

*sigh* I just hope we are done with must run faster that so-and-so plots because they could not be anymore BS.  I mean when you can already run fast enough where you break through the barrier of space and time...how do you actually run faster without breaking through the barriers of space and time?  *shakes head*

Edited May 25, 2016 by Xenith22

[thuganomics85]

So.... if I'm understanding everything correctly, these past two seasons have pretty much been a waste of time now, right?  Because by doing what he just did, Barry pretty much wiped them out of existence, right?  Thanks a lot, Barry!

I think this is it, when it comes to my feelings on Barry.  Grant Gustin is probably one of the strongest actors in this CW DC universe?  But Barry Allen?  Might have been become one of the most unlikable heroes now, for me.  Yes, I think I'm more pissed at him then with Oliver Queen, because, yes, Oliver is can be a dumbass, who will sabotage himself to the point of having almost no friends, because he thinks he doesn't deserve it, but you know what?  At least he's mainly hurting himself, outside of a few hurt feelings amongst the others.  But Barry?  He's just a selfish prick now, who doesn't care who he screws over, because he just can't live without his parents.  So, he does shit like this, even though he has no idea how this could effect Joe, Iris, Cisco, Caitlin, etc.  A bunch of people he has grown close to and even claims to love.  But I guess they can all fuck off, as far as Barry is concerned.  What a swell guy!  Are we sure Zach Snyder didn't somehow get involved in all of this?

Anyway, so Barry and Zoom had their stupid race, and it just ends with Barry splitting himself in two, sacrificing one of him, and then causing the Demntors... I mean Time Remnants to show up, and cart Hunter away.  Yeah, that was lame.  Zoom and his arc ended up being a major disappointment.  I miss the days of Eobard/Harrison Wells playing everyone like a fiddle.

The show finally decides to throw in a quick Barry/Iris kiss, because they know it won't matter, since Barry's little journey will probably fuck all that up somehow.

Joe gets kidnapped and there is no suspense.  I did crack up over how Iris barely seemed to react to it.  I would have thought her daughter getting kidnapped by a psycho speedster would be terrifying, but she was more "Oh.... drat!" about it.

At least Harry and Cisco are the gifts that keep on giving.  But I considering how most of this season has been written, I totally believe most of it is coming from Tom Cavanagh and Carlos Valdes ad-libbing, and not any of these writers.

Man in the Iron Mask is the real Jay Garrick, who is Henry Allen's doppleganger from another Earth, because there is no point in wasting a perfectly usable John Wesley Shipp.  I bet he had fun wearing another Flash outfit again.

Looking past all of the stupidity, I guess I am somewhat curious to see how this whole "Flashpoint" thing will change things on the show.  Will certain characters come back from the dead (Ronnie?  Eddie?  Original Harrison Wells?!)  Will current characters be dead?  Will certain villains become more powerful? (I vote for The Trickster to be a major pain in everyone's asses, instead of around for only one episode!)  Will this be used to get Supergirl/Kara into this universe for some of that sweet crossover deals?  At least there should be some fun amongst the stupidity.

Seriously though: Barry is the worst.