Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017)

[DkNNy79]

I saw this with my hubby last night.  Spiderman is hubby's favorite superhero so he was disappointed in the movie.  His favorite Spiderman is the second one with Doc Oc?  This is my first spiderman movie ever.  I really liked Tom Holland in this role from Civil War, so I enjoyed it overall.

The biggest gripe my husband has was with Spiderman's abilities.  He's like Spiderman is supposed to be one of the strongest/most powerful superheroes, so my husband didn't like when they showed him struggling under the rubble.  Also, he didn't like how they changed some of the secondary characters around.  Plus he said that they mentioned "Cindy Moon" who was bitten at the same time as Peter but she ended up in a coma, but they showed Cindy in class??? I don't know, I didn't read the comics so.

I'm assuming this is early on in Peter's development as Spiderman so maybe he isn't aware completely of all his abilities yet. 

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, DkNNy79 said:

The biggest gripe my husband has was with Spiderman's abilities.  He's like Spiderman is supposed to be one of the strongest/most powerful superheroes, so my husband didn't like when they showed him struggling under the rubble.  Also, he didn't like how they changed some of the secondary characters around.  Plus he said that they mentioned "Cindy Moon" who was bitten at the same time as Peter but she ended up in a coma, but they showed Cindy in class??? I don't know, I didn't read the comics so.

Spider-Man struggling under the wreckage is based on one of the most famous Spider-Man stories, written by creators Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, from Amazing Spider-Man 33: "If This Be My Destiny", which has it's own Wikipedia page. Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus and gets trapped under rubble and he has to get a serum to an ailing Aunt May or she'll die. It's one of the great stories because it shows Spider-Man's determination and strength of will to overcome any adversity.

 

Quote

Lee recounted that he and Ditko jointly plotted the acclaimed sequence in which Spider-Man lifts the heavy machinery off of him, but that stretching the sequence out for several pages was purely Ditko's idea.[3] Having anticipated that Ditko would spend just two or three panels on this plot point, Lee said that when he saw the art for the scene "I almost shouted in triumph."

Edited July 14, 2017 by VCRTracking

[DkNNy79]

8 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Spider-Man struggling under the wreckage is based on one of the most famous Spider-Man stories, written by creators Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, from Amazing Spider-Man 33: "If This Be My Destiny", which has it's own Wikipedia page. Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus and gets trapped under rubble and he has to get a serum to an ailing Aunt May or she'll die. It's one of he great stories because it shows Spider-Man's determination and strength of will to overcome any adversity.

 

Thanks.  I just tune my husband out sometimes.  He was like listing the characters in MCU and he's like Spiderman is supposed to be like the 4th strongest superhero behind Hulk, Thor and the Thing.

[tennisgurl]

http://www.cbr.com/spider-man-homecoming-villain-tony-stark/

I found this to be an interesting article about Tony's place in Peters story so far. I think the article is a little harsh on Tony, as I don't think he was being self centered, exactly, I think he did what he thought was right and didn't think of the greater implications or consequences of his actions, especially when it came to involving Peter in the battle in Berlin. I do think the article made some good points though, especially when it came to Tony and Happy basically giving Peter permission to be a superhero, giving him this powerful suit, and than just leaving him alone without any training or mentorship, even when he's clearly desperate for training. I get that their both busy guys, but there's a super powered, super energetic 15 year old kid running around chasing criminals, I would think they would be more in contact with him to make sure he doesn't bite off more than he can chew, or accidently hurt himself or someone else. Any other thoughts?

Don't get me wrong, I love Tony, flaws and all, but I do give him some serious side eye for this. I also gave Tony that same side eye at the throw away line that all he apparently told Peter about the Civil War mess was that "Captain America went crazy and we need to stop him" which, whichever side you were on in CW, you cant say that that is anywhere near true. It makes it look like he deliberately kept information from a kid and just used him for his power to advance his political goals. Now, I understand him not having the time to understand this complex information to Peter, but it doesn't look super good.

[Jazzy24]

49 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

http://www.cbr.com/spider-man-homecoming-villain-tony-stark/

I found this to be an interesting article about Tony's place in Peters story so far. I think the article is a little harsh on Tony, as I don't think he was being self centered, exactly, I think he did what he thought was right and didn't think of the greater implications or consequences of his actions, especially when it came to involving Peter in the battle in Berlin. I do think the article made some good points though, especially when it came to Tony and Happy basically giving Peter permission to be a superhero, giving him this powerful suit, and than just leaving him alone without any training or mentorship, even when he's clearly desperate for training. I get that their both busy guys, but there's a super powered, super energetic 15 year old kid running around chasing criminals, I would think they would be more in contact with him to make sure he doesn't bite off more than he can chew, or accidently hurt himself or someone else. Any other thoughts?

Don't get me wrong, I love Tony, flaws and all, but I do give him some serious side eye for this. I also gave Tony that same side eye at the throw away line that all he apparently told Peter about the Civil War mess was that "Captain America went crazy and we need to stop him" which, whichever side you were on in CW, you cant say that that is anywhere near true. It makes it look like he deliberately kept information from a kid and just used him for his power to advance his political goals. Now, I understand him not having the time to understand this complex information to Peter, but it doesn't look super good.

I agree with giving Tony and Happy side eyes on how they handled Peter. Though I always realize that Tony is new at this stuff(handling a 15yr old kid)so he gets a pass on me. Plus Tony probably views Peter as a kid who can handle it. Tony and Happy probably thought that Peter being smart would make good choices, stick to the ground and Aunt May will deal with all that other non superhero stuff. 

[blueray]

4 hours ago, DkNNy79 said:

I'm assuming this is early on in Peter's development as Spiderman so maybe he isn't aware completely of all his abilities yet. 

I thought this as well. It explains why he wasn't using extra senses, he didn't know he had that. Also it's established that he had his powers for 8 months or so, which isn't really a long time.

[ainon]

On 14/07/2017 at 9:36 AM, LJonEarth said:

Ah, that's what I missed. I got that principal grandson thing, I just missed this line. Thanks.

The actual quote from the Coach is, "I’m pretty sure this guy’s a war criminal now, but whatever, I have to show you these videos. It’s required by the state." Which came right after his "Thank you Captain" from the opposite side of where Captain America was gesturing to.  Between this scene, and the other teacher's, "Couldn't bear to lose a student on a school trip." Very serious pause, then: "Not again," the teachers offered some of the best laughs in this movie. 

Thanks for posting the comics pages, VCRTracking. That moment was amazing in the movie, and as a non comics reader, it also gave me a great sense of just how strong Spider-Man is. And because I didn't know how strong he could be, I did think that that was where someone else would need to come in to save Peter and then it would be some kind of team up to fight the villains at the end of the movie. So glad that was not how the movie went! 

As for giving any of the adults the side eye for what Peter was getting himself into, especially Tony and Happy - I don't think so. I haven't read the article, but the movie very clearly hews to the old formula of kids' adventure stories so the adults are always going to look, well ... not that great. There's May, the loving but quite oblivious parental figure (movie does change that up by having her find out at the end!); Tony, the supportive yet eccentric benefactor who even gets his happy engagement ending scene; and Happy, the grumpy but loyal guy who nonetheless has better things to do than tend to every whim from that kid, who then gets the ending where he realises how wrong he was about the kid. Besides, the movie itself shows us that Spider-Man wasn't actually left alone: there was a redundant amount of tech in that Spider-Man suit that could trigger an Iron Man to show up to save Peter from drowning within moments of the emergency with Tony himself handling that from the opposite side of the world. And Happy may have been grumpy but it turned out he relayed every single thing Peter had told him to Tony. And Tony's interactions with Peter are consistent with the way he interacted with the kid in Iron Man 3, who was even younger. Tony doesn't coddle, but he will go for overkill with handing the kid every piece of technology available. 

Tony and Happy did underestimate Peter's determination to be a hero, though, despite his age. I think their expectation of him was to study and do well in school, and be Spider-Man as some kind of hobby. Even Tony's farewell line to Peter from India was to keep studying and start thinking about college and getting into MIT. 

I do agree with what a previous poster said about how Tony should have told Peter about having contacted the FBI, even though I can't actually think of any adult automatically telling a kid such information anyway. But if Peter had known about the FBI, perhaps he wouldn't have tried to pursue Toomes on his own, and the FBI operation would have at least proceeded without major disaster. Still, maybe that was something Tony was planning to tell Peter, considering his surprise phone call to Peter was at about the same time the FBI takedown was going to happen. Tony figured out where Peter was pretty quickly. Even by magic movie time standards, Tony got out there to that ferry really fast.  

[Raja]

54 minutes ago, ainon said:

The actual quote from the Coach is, "I’m pretty sure this guy’s a war criminal now, but whatever, I have to show you these videos. It’s required by the state." Which came right after his "Thank you Captain" from the opposite side of where Captain America was gesturing to.  Between this scene, and the other teacher's, "Couldn't bear to lose a student on a school trip." Very serious pause, then: "Not again," the teachers offered some of the best laughs in this movie. 

Thanks for posting the comics pages, VCRTracking. That moment was amazing in the movie, and as a non comics reader, it also gave me a great sense of just how strong Spider-Man is. And because I didn't know how strong he could be, I did think that that was where someone else would need to come in to save Peter and then it would be some kind of team up to fight the villains at the end of the movie. So glad that was not how the movie went! 

 

That teacher's again comment left me with the real world feeling, yes comedic but sad too thinking that something went down in his school before

 

Any long time reader of comics knows that besides the ultras unlimited strength of the Thor's, Hulk's and Supermen that strength seems to be on a sliding scale depending upon who is writing at that particular moment in time. That the OP's husband was stuck on the forth most powerful Marvel hero seems to be be a strange fan boyish complaint. We just have to wait and see the show of strength scene, both Peter's and his webs, The ferry in this movie, the train in the previous franchise.

Someone like captain America has been shown from an Olympic record holder in every event to super human strength and other characters are similar. Spider-Man has always been about his spider like agility to me and didn't just use blunt force trauma run through the enemy used most recently by Wonder Woman in her movie. 

[bettername2come]

7 hours ago, ainon said:

Between this scene, and the other teacher's, "Couldn't bear to lose a student on a school trip." Very serious pause, then: "Not again," the teachers offered some of the best laughs in this movie. 

I laughed at his scene so hard. Someone on another site pointed out that the teacher could've taken a field trip during The Battle of New York in The Avengers. I'd kind of love to see this teacher just refusing to take a group on a field trip in a future Marvel movie.

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

http://www.cbr.com/spider-man-homecoming-villain-tony-stark/

I kind of took Tony's hands off approach to Peter in Spider-Man: Homecoming as kind of a reaction to what happened in Germany. When Peter got hurt in the fight, he was willing to get back up and keep going, but Tony told him no, he was sending him home. I think Tony realized he shouldn't have involved Peter in that and thought (wrongly) that he could keep Peter out of harm's way by keeping him at a distance and later by taking the suit away. I do think a lot of problems could've been solved by telling Peter he was listening to him and had contacted the FBI.

[SrPab]

My fanwank: Perhaps Uncle Ben did have a presence/influence after all...

Even though his name wasn't explicitly mentioned, and even though "with great power comes great responsibility" wasn't uttered, if 14/15-yr old hormonal teen Peter internalized all that from Civil War to now, then I think Tony and Happy underestimated his desire and restlessness to do good in the world. Their admonishments to stick to the ground were never going to get through to Peter--as he had to (l)earn that knowledge for himself. He's a neophyte superhuman who convinced himself that he wants great responsibility *now* to be the superhero the Avengers need.

In an alternate universe, maybe Malcolm from Jurassic Park could have dropped by for a chat with him.

Edited July 16, 2017 by SrPab

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I also had serious misgivings as to Tony's nonchalant attitude towards the newbie Parker, @tennisgurl.

The context of the Civil War is crucial to this point.  Stark was pretty well sick of dealing with Avengers and others with superpowers.  He was alllll about stifling the use of special powers.  He wanted the government to tamp it down as he so mistrusted their use.  And here he fosters and encourages a whole nother Avenger?!   He's cool with a completely loose and ignorant cannon leaping about?  At a bare minimum, it seems to me, that Stark would have disabled any ability for Parker to access any of the enhanced powers of the suit without first having schooled and counseled him about using them - especially in the context of the fight he was having with Captain America who refused to submit to anyone.

Why on earth would he help create a testosterone crazy superhero if he didn't have to?  Having done so, he would never have allowed him to be anything but heavily supervised, imo. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Lonesome Rhodes

[ainon]

6 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I also had serious misgivings as to Tony's nonchalant attitude towards the newbie Parker, @tennisgurl.

The context of the Civil War is crucial to this point.  Stark was pretty well sick of dealing with Avengers and others with superpowers.  He was alllll about stifling the use of special powers.  He wanted the government to tamp it down as he so mistrusted their use.  And here he fosters and encourages a whole nother Avenger?!   He's cool with a completely loose and ignorant cannon leaping about?  At a bare minimum, it seems to me, that Stark would have disabled any ability for Parker to access any of the enhanced powers of the suit without first having schooled and counseled him about using them - especially in the context of the fight he was having with Captain America who refused to submit to anyone.

Why on earth would he help create a testosterone crazy superhero if he didn't have to?  Having done so, he would never have allowed him to be anything but heavily supervised, imo. 

I don't know what the comics Civil War was, but the movie Civil War had the world pretty much decide they'd had enough of the Avengers and massive damage and civilian casualties and world governments came up with the Accords to regulate superpowered, superhero people. The whole airport showdown happened because the world thought Captain America had gone rogue to aid and abet the Winter Soldier who had bombed and killed a whole lot of people, including the Wakandan King. It wasn't till later in the movie that Tony Stark finally had evidence to suggest that there'd been a frame job. And the final personal showdown between Captain America and Iron Man happened because Tony just found out that the Winter Soldier had killed his mom.

There wasn't anything in the Civil War movie or even in Homecoming to suggest Tony Stark himself had any aversion to anyone using their super powers or in controlling any random hero. I just figure Tony saw the potential in Peter, built him a suit to enhance that Spider-Man potential, knew the kid was going to be swinging around helping people anyway but failed to predict how much trouble Peter could get himself into. Tony wouldn't be the first adult to misjudge that about kids and if things had gone wrong Tony would've had to live with the guilt. He even says as much. That's about as far from nonchalant as one can get, to me. 

[anna0852]

58 minutes ago, ainon said:

 

There wasn't anything in the Civil War movie or even in Homecoming to suggest Tony Stark himself had any aversion to anyone using their super powers or in controlling any random hero. I just figure Tony saw the potential in Peter, built him a suit to enhance that Spider-Man potential, knew the kid was going to be swinging around helping people anyway but failed to predict how much trouble Peter could get himself into. Tony wouldn't be the first adult to misjudge that about kids and if things had gone wrong Tony would've had to live with the guilt. He even says as much. That's about as far from nonchalant as one can get, to me. 

Yes, thank you! 

[SnoGirl]

Wow, just saw the movie and I absolutely loved it. My favorite parts were all the small character beats. Peter never knowing exactly how to pose himself to look intimindating. The Bodega scene. Peter making his web at school. Tony in India and then really being there. Peter being afraid of heights at the momument and him changing his voice so his friends on the elevator wouldnt know it was him. Peter trying to save Toomes even though he had tried to kill him. Happy carrying around an engagement  ring. Loved them all.

Toomes was impressively scary and layered. The scene where he took down his own building to land on Peter was awful good (I knew Peter would survive but I definitely was panicking. The whimpering and shouting out for help was gut-wrenching). I loved that he didnt give-up Peter at the end. It would have been so easy for him to do too. 

I loved the amount of Tony, Happy and Pepper, but like all the other Marvel movies, I wish we would have seen a couple more Avengers. Or them at least discussing Peter. I cant imagine Natasha or Vision would be happy about Peter being so young. And I wish we would have seen the other side. Sam and Steve spying on Tony, discussing how someone should teach Peter how to fight. Steve holding back a smile when relating to not wanting to back down from a fight. I know we got Cap, but it felt almost like a cop-out. But selfishly, I always want more than we're given.

 

And geez Tony, a kill function on the suit? Over four hundred web settings and you were like "hmmm, should give a fifteen year old a way to kill his opponent." Get out of here.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

 

 

And geez Tony, a kill function on the suit? Over four hundred web settings and you were like "hmmm, should give a fifteen year old a way to kill his opponent." Get out of here.

From the way karen kept pushing the option I started thinking about a pre super soldier Steve Rogers, reprised by Peter in this movie asking if that was a test

[AimingforYoko]

3 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

And geez Tony, a kill function on the suit? Over four hundred web settings and you were like "hmmm, should give a fifteen year old a way to kill his opponent." Get out of here.

To be fair, that option was not available under the "Training Wheels Protocol."

[Spartan Girl]

Fuck the Tobey Maguire movies. THIS was the Spiderman movie we should have had from the beginning.

I started grinning the minute the Spiderman theme music played over the Marvel logo, and started howling from the opening of Peter's "behind the scenes video" of the CW fight. I knew from that moment this movie was worth all the hype and praise. No romantic angst or multiple villains with split personalities, just high flying fun.

Like everyone already said, Tom Holland had the right balance between adorkable kid and quippy hero. It also helped he actually could pass for a teenager.

Loved Ned. It was so nice for Peter to have a friend that supported him (thanks for nothing, James Franco!)

Also liked that they were able to pull off Peter having a crush on the popular girl without him acting like the sun shone out of her every orfice or her having her head stuck up her ass. I can't tell you how much I appreciated how Liz didn't turn bitter or hateful towards Peter, even when he kept having to bail on her (go to hell, Kirsten Dunst!)

LOVED snarky Michelle. This MJ can stay. But if they turn her into another whiny bitch-twit in the sequel, we will have problems.

Michael Keaton pulled off alternating from total psycho to dorky dad quite well.

The Karen parts were hilarious. You think Peter named her after Plankton's computer wife on Spongebob?

Tony being Peter's mentor worked quite well. And Pepper's back! Yay! I knew after CW she and Tony would work stuff out.

The ending with May walking in on Peter ???

The third time really was the charm. Let's just hope they don't mess it up.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[starri]

On 7/14/2017 at 4:23 PM, DkNNy79 said:

Thanks.  I just tune my husband out sometimes.  He was like listing the characters in MCU and he's like Spiderman is supposed to be like the 4th strongest superhero behind Hulk, Thor and the Thing.

Honestly, Peter should be able the same level as Luke Cage and Jessica Jones.

 

On 7/14/2017 at 0:21 AM, Lantern7 said:

I'm okay with Aunt May getting "play," but I'm so used to her as "old crone." In the Ultimate Spider-Man animated series, she was a go-getter, but I think she was still grey. I'm okay with Marisa Tormei's performance ("WHAT THE F-!!"), but it kinda runs counter to "classic" canon.

A lot of the MCU in general, and the MCU Spider-Man in particular, is borrowed from the Ultimate version of Spider-Man.  Ned is borrowed pretty heavily from Miles Morales' best friend Ganke, and the younger, cougar-y Aunt May is as well.  Although even the classic version got aged down a bit and got a new romance with J Jonah Jameson's father.

Speaking of, Ultimate Spider-Man artist Sara Pichelli got a place in the "Special Thanks" credits with all the other creators, and I'm betting that's the first time a woman has appeared in one of those.

I've been working crazy hours for the last two weeks, so I only finally got around to seeing it today.  I really loved it.  Marvel Studios is often accused of making its films too tonally similar, but this was really the perfect movie for that kind of thing.  And it was kind of nice that a movie set in New York almost never went to Manhattan.  They captured the vibe of Queens really well, although just about all of the street scenes looked like they were filmed in Astoria, not Forest Hills.

Tony's line to Happy about being stuck in traffic because he wasn't on Queens Boulevard got some applause in our theater, given that it's actually in Forest Hills on Queens Boulevard.

Marvel's 2/2 with good villains this summer.  Hope they keep that up.

[Bruinsfan]

In the comics Luke Cage has been powered up considerably; he knocked She-Hulk unconscious and (briefly) survived being nuked in Age of Ultron. I haven't seen the Netflix series, so I don't know how they're treating him in the MCU.

Power wise Spider-Man is in sort of a no man's land between the street level heroes and the heavy hitters. He's a lot more agile and stronger than anyone human (or even low-level superhumans like Captain America), but he's not bulletproof, and he'd have to pray he could dodge any blows by someone like Thor or the Hulk because they'd pulverize him with one solid hit.

[Wishing Well]

I was having a problem with them building Avengers Compound upstate but then I realized the movie starts right after CW...which is when Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch turned the residential part of the compound into rubble.

It actually makes great sense why it took them months to fill in that giant hole she shoved Vision through.  And I think at the end of CW Tony had implied he was going to move there instead of living in NYC so that was actually pretty good continuity there.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

My impression is obviously vastly different than yours, @ainon.  No worries.

I saw a Stark who was sick to death of all the fighting and resentful of the burdens in being a superhero.  He did not trust the use of the powers invested in the various folks, Avengers included.  He most definitely supported the notion that they collectively needed to be overseen/governed by, and answer to, a committee of some sort.  The industrialist's industrialist enthusiastically endorsed giving up his personal liberty and advantage.  To me, that is quite indicative of how leery he had become of all the super hero responsibilities and consequences. 

I found him to bitter and disillusioned.  YMMV!

[benteen]

9 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

In the comics Luke Cage has been powered up considerably; he knocked She-Hulk unconscious and (briefly) survived being nuked in Age of Ultron. I haven't seen the Netflix series, so I don't know how they're treating him in the MCU.

Power wise Spider-Man is in sort of a no man's land between the street level heroes and the heavy hitters. He's a lot more agile and stronger than anyone human (or even low-level superhumans like Captain America), but he's not bulletproof, and he'd have to pray he could dodge any blows by someone like Thor or the Hulk because they'd pulverize him with one solid hit.

Yeah, Spider-Man has superhuman strength but he's on the low end compared to guys like Hulk, Thor, Thing, even Iron Man.  I remember various sourcebooks and trading cards explained that Peter could lift up to 10 tons while the heavy-hitters of the MU could lift 100 tons or more.  Marvel and DC did a Spider-Man vs Superman crossover in 1977.  Spider-Man punches Superman in his stomach, which causes Peter to jump about 100 feet into the air holding his hand in pain.

Now, there was a storyline in the late-80s, early-90s where Spider-Man gained the powers of Captain Universe to fight the Tri-Sentinel.  This gave him Superman-like strength and the ability to fly, along with a few other things.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm guessing this is no longer valid but, I've seen this before (MCU thread?) To explain Spider-Man's power level

 

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/1/14/Amazing_Spider-Man_Annual_Vol_1_15_page_-_Power_Rankings.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100221004803

[Spartan Girl]

On 7/9/2017 at 1:43 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I adore Tom Holland, and loved his appearance in Civil War, and I will see this movie. But I'm already peeved because MJ isn't Mary Jane Watson, and she should be.  After all that flak over Zendaya's casting? And the director knew she wasn't going to be playing the MJ everyone associates with Peter Parker? And he didn't say shit?!?

Maybe this is better suited for the Unpopular Thread, but this change doesn't sit well with me. And yeah, growing up reading the strip in my newspaper, I'm a Peter/MJ shipper.  SUE ME.

I ship them too, at least the comic book version before that asshole Dan Slott ruined everything

Would it have killed Sam Raimi to at least the comic book canon of their romance?!  MJ was supposed to be a cool, fun, party girl with nerves of steel, and that was NOT what we got in the Raimi movies!

[benteen]

What annoyed me with MJ was the final battle of every Raimi film revolved around Peter having to rescue her from the villain and how she publicly humiliated John Jameson at the end of the second movie.

[Spartan Girl]

And how every guy in the whole stupid franchise fell head over heels in love with her and acted like she was a special snowflake instead of a petty, whiny, fickle little bitch.

[VCRTracking]

On 7/17/2017 at 9:31 AM, Spartan Girl said:

I adore Tom Holland, and loved his appearance in Civil War, and I will see this movie. But I'm already peeved because MJ isn't Mary Jane Watson, and she should be.  After all that flak over Zendaya's casting? And the director knew she wasn't going to be playing the MJ everyone associates with Peter Parker? And he didn't say shit?!?

Maybe this is better suited for the Unpopular Thread, but this change doesn't sit well with me. And yeah, growing up reading the strip in my newspaper, I'm a Peter/MJ shipper.  SUE ME.

 

On 7/17/2017 at 9:31 AM, Spartan Girl said:

I ship them too, at least the comic book version before that asshole Dan Slott ruined everything

Would it have killed Sam Raimi to at least the comic book canon of their romance?!  MJ was supposed to be a cool, fun, party girl with nerves of steel, and that was NOT what we got in the Raimi movies!

23 hours ago, benteen said:

What annoyed me with MJ was the final battle of every Raimi film revolved around Peter having to rescue her from the villain and how she publicly humiliated John Jameson at the end of the second movie.

 

I'm not in love with or have as big nostalgia for the 90s Spider-Man animated series as a lot of people my age and younger are but the one thing I do love about it is that IMO it has the best media interpretation of Mary Jane Watson. She not only looks like the comic version(at least the 60s and 70s, not the late 80s and 90s big hair McFarlane drew) but she has the fun, party girl "Face it Tiger you've hit the jackpot" persona of the original Lee/Romita stories but also has a lot of the depth and inner life that later writers gave her.

I don't mind Zendaya being the new "MJ". Since she's not Mary Jane they can have her be different from Kirsten Dunst's version while still kind of playing the same role in this Peter's life. Interesting she has a crush on Peter by the way she looks at him when he leaves in her final scene. Her last name being "Jones" actually reminds me more of how in the comics Brian Michael Bendis had Jessica Jones go to the same high school as Peter and she had a crush on him but then she got into an accident and went into a coma. I love when they're all in the Avengers and Jessica is married to Luke Cage and everybody finds out:

Edited July 18, 2017 by VCRTracking

[GHScorpiosRule]

My love for MJ came from the daily and Sunday strips I read as a kid, to teen, to young adult. MJ was nobody's damsel and she was in business or something to do with computers when she and Peter broke up for a wee bit? I just know it was around the time Peter was in Atlantis, and some blonde bimbo reporter was with him and she saw him using his webbing to fight, and they kissed once or twice. When MJ came back, but, I'm blanking, but shortly after, Peter told MJ about her, and when Peter wasn't returning her calls, MJ started to wonder if his feelings for Bimbo weren't more deep. But before THE IDIOTS IN CHARGE did what they did, I ate up and LOVED those two and The 90's series was perfect for me.????

[tennisgurl]

I honestly felt bad for Kirsten Dunst, whos a really good actress, who was stuck playing such a boring, lifeless, fickle version of Mary Jane. There are glimmers of her more fun, vivacious personality from the comics, but she's mostly just a dull, flighty drip whos sole purpose in the story is to be rescued a million times by Peter. I remember somewhere reading that Kirsten Dunst begged Sam Rami not to make her the damsel in the third movie, but he still did, and actually apologized to her about it. She really did just come across as a prize for Peter to win, and not an interesting character in her own right. The only thing she ever really DID was dump a guy at the altar for Peter, which isn't exactly a good thing.

At least in the Garfield Spider-Man, Gwen Stacey got some stuff to do and had a fun, likable personality before they killed her off.

[starri]

I like Dunst, but Emma Stone is a much better actress.

[anna0852]

I really really hope that Tony Stark is made aware of those PSA's that Cap filmed. Once they are back on speaking terms he will never let Steve live that down!

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I honestly felt bad for Kirsten Dunst, whos a really good actress, who was stuck playing such a boring, lifeless, fickle version of Mary Jane. There are glimmers of her more fun, vivacious personality from the comics, but she's mostly just a dull, flighty drip whos sole purpose in the story is to be rescued a million times by Peter. I remember somewhere reading that Kirsten Dunst begged Sam Rami not to make her the damsel in the third movie, but he still did, and actually apologized to her about it. She really did just come across as a prize for Peter to win, and not an interesting character in her own right. The only thing she ever really DID was dump a guy at the altar for Peter, which isn't exactly a good thing

And shit on Peter for the better half of two movies. Which was definitely NOT a good thing. Really, she had to wait until THE DAY OF THE WEDDING before realizing she didn't want to marry that guy? Red flag, Peter!

I loved the 90s cartoon too.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[johntfs]

On 7/18/2017 at 0:06 PM, VCRTracking said:

I don't mind Zendaya being the new "MJ". Since she's not Mary Jane they can have her be different from Kirsten Dunst's version while still kind of playing the same role in this Peter's life. Interesting she has a crush on Peter by the way she looks at him when he leaves in her final scene.

I liked her a lot too.  I like that as Zendaya she's obviously pretty but isn't the full-on supermodel from some of the comics or the 90s movies.  I like her as the weird artsy student that just kind of pops up where Peter happens to be.  Also, it's cool that Zendaya probably has enough Dsiney-star clout that she won't have to tolerate M.J. getting written as a whiny damsel.

[immortalfrieza]

The movie was fine. Vulture was great and the movie had some funny moments (we salute you Troll Captain America!) but what really dragged down a movie that would have otherwise been excellent is how Spider-Man was portrayed as a totally incompetent screw up, and most of it was either for the sake of cheap slapstick or so the bad guy could get away. I get that this Spider-Man is a relative newbie and has no experience fighting any superpowered threats besides the "fight" with Team Cap in Civil War, but this movie really REALLY went overboard with that. Spider-Man not only failed utterly to beat just ordinary thugs with some fancy sci-fi weapons but he also only made things much worse in his attempts to save the day. Even when he does eventually stop the Vulture he can't manage to do it without destroying Stark's fancy plane and a carnival in the process. He also has this really stupid tendency to just stand/hang there and quip at the bad guys while they ready their weapons instead of just taking them down before they even know he's there. Homecoming's Spider-Man doesn't seem like an inexperienced superhero, he looks like a guy who got his powers 5 minutes ago and had just decided to go fight the first crime they saw in each fight.

Edited July 21, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

The movie was fine. Vulture was great and the movie had some funny moments (we salute you Troll Captain America!) but what really dragged down a movie that would have otherwise been excellent is how Spider-Man was portrayed as a totally incompetent screw up, and most of it was either for the sake of cheap slapstick or so the bad guy could get away. I get that this Spider-Man is a relative newbie and has no experience fighting any superpowered threats besides the "fight" with Team Cap in Civil War, but this movie really REALLY went overboard with that. Spider-Man not only failed utterly to beat just ordinary thugs with some fancy sci-fi weapons but he also only made things much worse in his attempts to save the day. Even when he does eventually stop the Vulture he can't manage to do it without destroying Stark's fancy plane and a carnival in the process. He also has this really stupid tendency to just stand/hang there and quip at the bad guys while they ready their weapons instead of just taking them down before they even know he's there. Homecoming's Spider-Man doesn't seem like an inexperienced superhero, he looks like a guy who got his powers 5 minutes ago and had just decided to go fight the first crime they saw in each fight.

See, I didn't mind that much.  Prior to CA:CW Peter had been, well, pretty much going after muggers, bike thieves and otherwise lightweight stuff.  Even during CA:CW he was up against tough superheroes... who really didn't want to hurt him or anyone.  The only super he really took down was Ant-Man, who was the other novice super-person.  After that it was mostly back to purse-snatchers and bike-thieves.  And people who'd locked themselves out of their cars.  Peter never faced anyone until the ATM robbers who really pushed him to up his game.  Once that occurred Peter faced a pretty steep learning curve without much hands-on support.

[immortalfrieza]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

See, I didn't mind that much.  Prior to CA:CW Peter had been, well, pretty much going after muggers, bike thieves and otherwise lightweight stuff.  Even during CA:CW he was up against tough superheroes... who really didn't want to hurt him or anyone.  The only super he really took down was Ant-Man, who was the other novice super-person.  After that it was mostly back to purse-snatchers and bike-thieves.  And people who'd locked themselves out of their cars.  Peter never faced anyone until the ATM robbers who really pushed him to up his game.  Once that occurred Peter faced a pretty steep learning curve without much hands-on support.

The thing is, this version of Spider-Man has had 8 months of crime fighting experience and still acts like he just got his powers and has never been in a fight in his life. Not only has every other version of Spider-Man been 10 times more competent right out of the gate than this one was the whole movie, but this Spider-Man had a better showing in the roughly 15 minutes fighting Team Cap than he did fighting a bunch of thugs with some fancy sci-fi guns. There's "inexperienced" and then there's just plain useless and this Spider-Man during this movie was the latter, in fact, he was so bad everybody would have been better off if he had done nothing. It's hard to care about or root for a "hero" that only constantly makes things worse.

[VCRTracking]

I like this video from Jenny Nicholson. I was too old to watch "Hey Arnold!" but I get how New York as depicted in Homecoming is a much nicer, friendier place toward both Peter Parker and Spider-Man compared to New York in Sam Raimi's movies, which felt harsher toward Tobey Maguire but that they're both valid and can teach kids a lot.

[johntfs]

On 7/21/2017 at 10:18 AM, immortalfrieza said:

The thing is, this version of Spider-Man has had 8 months of crime fighting experience and still acts like he just got his powers and has never been in a fight in his life. Not only has every other version of Spider-Man been 10 times more competent right out of the gate than this one was the whole movie, but this Spider-Man had a better showing in the roughly 15 minutes fighting Team Cap than he did fighting a bunch of thugs with some fancy sci-fi guns. There's "inexperienced" and then there's just plain useless and this Spider-Man during this movie was the latter, in fact, he was so bad everybody would have been better off if he had done nothing. It's hard to care about or root for a "hero" that only constantly makes things worse.

Okay, well, let's say that I am a crime-fighter.  And I fight toddler crime.  I fight crime committed by kids ages 2-4.  As an adult I am absolutely physically superior to my opponents, who are 2-4 year old children.  Say I've been doing that for eight months except for one brief but tough sparring session involving actual adults.  How much is that "crime-fighting" experience going to prepare me for dealing with actual armed adult criminals?  I'm guessing not that much.

Peter did pretty well against Team Cap because A) They weren't really trying to hurt him and B) The rest of Team Iron Man was backing him up.  For that matter while he didn't run the table I thought Peter did pretty well most of the time.  While he took a couple of hits, Peter was winning against the ATM robbers when he broke off combat to save the guy (and his cat) at the grocery.  He likely would have captured the guys in the van except for being ambushed by the Vulture (apparently his Spider-sense hasn't kicked in yet).  While he didn't catch anyone, he did foil the truck hijacking and likely would have made a couple of captures except for enabling his suit's full functions and being unready for that (though bonus points for him and Ned for managing to disable a limiting protocol designed and implemented by Tony Stark).  Saving the people in the elevator was a clean win while the fight at the ferry was a pretty clear loss, though he did help capture the buyers along with the weapons and the Vulture only managed to save himself and Shocker.  Then with only his crap costume and primitive web-shooters, he caught the Shocker (with help), the Vulture (without help) and stopped the theft of some pretty dangerous stuff.  Oh, and overall he did a hell of a lot less collateral and property damage than most of the other Marvel heroes we've seen.  Heck, he even saved the bad guy.  I like that Peter had to fight, struggle and made bad decisions before bringing home the full win.  Oh, and it was really nice that Peter only needed to save his girlfriend once during the movie and she did not turn out to be one of his two true loves.

Edited July 23, 2017 by johntfs

[arc]

On 7/14/2017 at 1:12 PM, VCRTracking said:

Spider-Man struggling under the wreckage is based on one of the most famous Spider-Man stories, written by creators Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, from Amazing Spider-Man 33: "If This Be My Destiny", which has it's own Wikipedia page. Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus and gets trapped under rubble and he has to get a serum to an ailing Aunt May or she'll die. It's one of the great stories because it shows Spider-Man's determination and strength of will to overcome any adversity.

Yeah, that scene is so iconic it's been homaged a ton of times in subsequent Spidey comics.

On 7/14/2017 at 1:23 PM, DkNNy79 said:

Thanks.  I just tune my husband out sometimes.  He was like listing the characters in MCU and he's like Spiderman is supposed to be like the 4th strongest superhero behind Hulk, Thor and the Thing.

I want to suspend your husband's geek card for not getting the "If This Be My Destiny" ref and for getting Spidey's strength class wrong. =)

Like @benteen said, Spider-Man is in the "10 ton" strength class, meaning he can lift 10 tons over his head. Or more accurately, Spider-Man was in the 10 ton strength class for many years but more recently he was bumped up to the 25 or 75 ton strength class (online references vary) because, I dunno, I guess writers were getting carried away or didn't have a good idea about how little 10 tons can actually be. Even so, there are many, many Marvel heroes and villains in the next level up (90-100 tons) and a lot more in the top level, "100+ tons" (basically unlimited strength). But that's the mainline comics. The MCU's Cap, for example, is more like Ultimate Comics Cap, who is distinctly superhuman rather than merely "peak human".

 

OK, comics geekery aside, I really liked the movie's story and acting. I was really carried along with Peter's emotional arc. I think as a superhero movie the big action set pieces were surprisingly poor at both conveying a coherent sense of spatial relationships and making them feel visceral. But the emotion is more important and that part worked.

[rmontro]

Do you think there might be any disappointment in the box office from Sony?  I wonder if they might have expected bigger dividends from joining up with the MCU?  This film is doing much better domestically than Amazing Spider-Man 2, although so far it is lagging behind worldwide.  I'm not saying this movie is a failure, obviously, this is making great money for a fifth film in a franchise.  I'm just asking the question.  I'd hate to see Sony take back the character.

[starri]

I'm willing to bet there's a "no backsies" clause in the agreement between the two studios.

[rmontro]

14 minutes ago, starri said:

I'm willing to bet there's a "no backsies" clause in the agreement between the two studios.

Yeah, but if I understand it correctly, the agreement is only for a certain number of films.  At which time it can be extended, or not.

[calliope1975]

On 7/18/2017 at 11:08 AM, anna0852 said:

I really really hope that Tony Stark is made aware of those PSA's that Cap filmed. Once they are back on speaking terms he will never let Steve live that down!

It's my head canon that those PSA's were Tony's idea. After the Battle of New York, the Avengers needed some good PR. I bet someone pitched a bunch of ideas, Tony got wind of school PSA's and volunteered Cap up. Cap was too nice to decline, and Tony forever makes fun of him even though it was all his idea. 

Yes, I've thought a lot about this. 

[methodwriter85]

I do wish they had just said "Screw it" and let Emma Stone be Mary Jane, but like the 90s cartoon one. She could have pulled it off. I am glad they pulled Shaliene Woodley's version. She looked like absolute shit as a redhead. As for box office, yeah. I think they might have been hoping for more (this will probably end in the high 200's) but you do have to take in franchise fatigue. Yes, it's a new movie canon but its still the 6th movie in 15 years. I'm still surprised by the big second weekend drop, although it seems to have stabilized.

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm still surprised by the big second weekend drop, although it seems to have stabilized.

Marvel movies tend to be very front loaded.

[ketchuplover]

Saw this on my birthday yesterday.  Somehow I missed what/who made Spider-Man fall into the water (I think it was at night)  Thanks to anyone who can clarify. Peace out.

[Sandman]

On 2017-07-18 at 2:08 PM, anna0852 said:

I really really hope that Tony Stark is made aware of those PSA's that Cap filmed. Once they are back on speaking terms he will never let Steve live that down!

I've just decided: my headcanon now says that Tony fronted the money for the whole series of PSAs to the DoDC, on the sole condition that Cap be made to record them.

I was thoroughly charmed by this movie, though I think the Sam Raimi versions were not terrible -- there were some things I actually liked about the first one. I never saw Mary Jane Watson as having a creepy, sad home-life, though. I'll grant that version of MJ was kind of a drip. I liked Michelle. I know nothing about Zendaya. 

I really liked the nod to the comics in the "who am I?" image of Peter's reflection in the puddle, half-obscured by the mask. That and the "What the f--!" reveal at the end were among my favourite moments.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Sandman

[Bruinsfan]

I'm not that surprised by the drop-off. I enjoyed the movie, particularly Holland's performance, but didn't feel compelled to go see it again. (By contrast I saw Wonder Woman 5 times in the theater, and only backed off when it occurred to me I could get the blu-ray in a few months for the cost of another trip to the theater.)

[ChelseaNH]

On 7/31/2017 at 9:59 PM, ketchuplover said:

Somehow I missed what/who made Spider-Man fall into the water (I think it was at night)

Vulture was carrying him up into the clouds and he started falling; his advanced suit deployed a parachute, but he was upside down at the time (so his suit could have used a little more advancement); he fell into the parachute and down into the water.  Tangled up in the chute, he couldn't get to the surface.

Regarding the compound:  Per Ant Man, it was originally a warehouse, so there was always a building at the site.  It has just gone through various renovations over the years.

I don't think Spidey was particularly inept, so much as facing a lot of complications.  The bad guys had better tech than he had previously encountered, plus he was dealing with a whole new configuration for his suit.

You have to whack Tony Stark pretty hard to get him out of his own head and start thinking about things from someone else's perspective.  Tony's approach to "mentoring" Peter was about what Tony wanted, not what Peter wanted or needed.  And if he was feeling guilty about dragging Peter into the Civil War fight, then he'd be in his usual avoid/deflect guilt mode.

[Jazzy24]

7 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'm not that surprised by the drop-off. I enjoyed the movie, particularly Holland's performance, but didn't feel compelled to go see it again. (By contrast I saw Wonder Woman 5 times in the theater, and only backed off when it occurred to me I could get the blu-ray in a few months for the cost of another trip to the theater.)

I don't get the appeal of this movie. I've seen bits and pieces and read the plot and it seems like the same old superhero origins story namely a Captain America First Avengers meets Thor 1 movie. 

 

But  to each their own. 

 

Also so sorry to take up the Spidey thread with WW talk.