Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017)

[Morrigan2575]

9 hours ago, Kromm said:

Gwen Stacy has more story baggage. Even if you ignore her fate, she ties you a bit tightly to fairly predictable storylines with her father.  MJ is more of a blank slate.  The only essentials are really that she's overtly a party girl, and you can use a whole bunch of variations starting from there.

Honestly i feel like I've seen MJ too much, i just want something different, i don't care about the baggage.  

6 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

You're right about Gwen, at this point she basically has to die no matter what they do with the character and that's just a big no thanks. I wouldn't even say MJ has to be a party girl, my only requirements are spitfire and very pretty.

But there's also Clone Gwen and AU spider-Gwen etc. I get it, for some reason comics (which bring every character back) insist on keeping Unvle Ben and Gwen stacy dead. Doesn't mean i have to accept it ?

[Kromm]

50 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Honestly i feel like I've seen MJ too much, i just want something different, i don't care about the baggage.  

Well the most "authentic" choice for a Spidey THAT young would actually be Betty Brant.  Who predates BOTH Gwen and MJ.  But (other than a single scene in Spider-man 3) none of the toon or movie versions have ever really wanted to run with that before, and I doubt this would break that precedent, because Betty had the twist of being the (slightly) older woman who flirted with Peter at the Daily Bugle while he was still in High School. 

[Morrigan2575]

Ohhh that would be cool. I know I'm the oddball, I'm sure most people want Peter Parker/MJ just like most people (probably) think you can't have a Superman movie without Clark/Lois.  Meanwhile I'm over here going let's see Clark/Lori Lemaris. ?

I'm just so tired if seeing the same origin stuff over and over again. It's unfortunate that Spider-Man has been rebooted so many times in recent memory. I was fine with Sam Rami version and I loved the fact the Andrew Garfield version went with Gwen instead of MJ because it was different. 

I'll probably go see Homecoming, so far the only Marvel movie I've skipped is Thor The Dark World. I just wish they we're so boxed in by expectations. 

[Jediknight]

8 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

If Zendaya is Mary Jane then it looks like they're going for the full John Hughes treatment because the character she's playing in Homecoming was described by people who saw the trailer at comic con as a sort of Freaks and Geeks Linda Cartellini type. So we're probably in for the full last minute makeover. And I don't know how I feel about that.

Give her frizzy hair, glasses, and overalls, and that will make ir believable she's an outcast that isn't well liked, just ignore that she'll still look like Zendaya.

[Bruinsfan]

Have Randy Quaid play her crazy yokel father while we're at it.

Really, I don't think Mary Jane needs to look any specific way to be true to the character other than very pretty, and Zendaya certainly fits that criteria. An interracial romantic pairing would have been a hard sell in 1965, but most people wouldn't think twice about it today.

[VCRTracking]

I have no problem with the casting.

[Kromm]

8 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Really, I don't think Mary Jane needs to look any specific way to be true to the character other than very pretty, and Zendaya certainly fits that criteria. 

She's good enough looking that when she kicked up a fuss that some magazine was retouching photos they took of her, when the unretouched photos got revealed you could pretty much only tell the difference if you tried REALLY really hard. 

[Which Tyler]

I know nothing about this actress (beyond a quick google now); but have no problem at all with MJ being non-white. If hair colour is really an issue, then there's always hair dye.

The only thing I would comment on, is that it'd be nice if Hollywood's idea of diversity wasn't always to cast African-American, almost never to go East Asian, or South Asian, Arabic, North African, Euro-Mediteranean or Latino etc; it seems to be black, white, or some combination of the two. Maybe it's my European bias, where we have different Ethnic mixes, but it really stands out to me.

[Kromm]

38 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

I know nothing about this actress (beyond a quick google now); but have no problem at all with MJ being non-white. If hair colour is really an issue, then there's always hair dye.

The only thing I would comment on, is that it'd be nice if Hollywood's idea of diversity wasn't always to cast African-American, almost never to go East Asian, or South Asian, Arabic, North African, Euro-Mediteranean or Latino etc; it seems to be black, white, or some combination of the two. Maybe it's my European bias, where we have different Ethnic mixes, but it really stands out to me.

Zendaya is mixed race enough that she wouldn't inherently look ridiculous with different color hair... but... IMO it would be kind of silly. She looks like she looks, and I personally wouldn't see the point of making her look any other way (and then there'd also be accusations that she's being made up to "pass").

As for the diversity bias?  It's certainly true, although if we're being frank it's a dangerous subject to raise, because I think it can backfire and quite easily act as a trigger to offend many African-Americans (if it's perceived as a shot at them that they're somehow "taking" all of those roles rather than someone simply interpreting it as "too much whitey"). 

I do think you are wrong on Latinos though. It's really the Asians who get screwed out of roles, but I think the main problem with Latinos is less about exclusion and more about there still often being a kind of role that's too relied on (gangbangers, domestics, etc.) And TV has caught up a lot for Latinos. It's movies that are still further away from any kind of fair representation. Whereas Asians?  Usually the butt of jokes for most of them, except for the West Asians, who probably get "read" more as "terrorist types" than anything else.

[JustaPerson]

As an Asian (American) person, I've felt really frustrated by this. Having Black and/or Latino people in a project is usually enough for "Yay Diversity!!1!" and moving on to the next thing. At the very least there are Asians in this movie, though one is the bully (the beatdowns of the academic type?) the other is Peter's best friend. 

[Zuleikha]

I do think you are wrong on Latinos though. It's really the Asians who get screwed out of roles, but I think the main problem with Latinos is less about exclusion and more about there still often being a kind of role that's too relied on (gangbangers, domestics, etc.)

Per the last stats I saw, Latinos are very underrepresented relative to population stats in addition to being locked into gangbangers and maids. They were the most dramatically underrepresented.

It's really too many white men getting roles, not too many white people in general. White women are very underrepresented relative to population stats and the way too often are locked into token love interest role. 

Zendaya's had red hair in the past (not sure if dyed or a wig) and she looked great. I hope if she really is MJ, she does have red hair. To me, the red hair is an important part of MJ's look. If Zendaya couldn't pull it off, I'd rather she look good than try for it. But since she's pulled off red in the past, IMHO, there's no good reason for her not to have it. I also hope there's a dance scene, and I hope there's not a ridiculous makeover scene. This is the character who was introduced with the line "Face it tiger... you just hit the jackpot." She knows she's hot.

[Lugal]

Haven't seen Zendaya in enough things to say whether she would be good or not.  Don't have a problem with an African-American MJ.  Queens is a lot more diverse than it was in the post-WWII era when Spiderman was created.

Not sure about the Flash casting, since a lot of the bullies I encountered in school were jocks.  I wonder if they're going for the "protected bully" type.  You know that one asshole, who may not be big or strong, but gets away with everything because teachers/school officials/higher-ups look the other way.

I think there's also a generational thing with Aunt May's age too.  My grandmother had six siblings with a 20 age gap between oldest and youngest, so an old woman like in the original comics as Aunt May was more believable then.

[Kromm]

So apparently a few places that aren't this board but are on the Internet are being outraged and racist over this casting.

That said, it is also apparently being unfairly typified as a default attitude in tweets like this:

Really even a casual twitter search of tweets about Zendaya show almost universal positive responses to the casting. I think the expectation people would be racist about this is bigger than the reality.

[Kromm]

[JessePinkman]

New set pics:

Get you a man who can do both.

[JessePinkman]

Hey, here's a distraction from the actual hell we're living in, Zendaya and Tom Holland are on the cover of The Hollywood Reporter:

[VCRTracking]

Just a trailer tease. The full one comes out tomorrow:

[Spartan Girl]

I just hope this is the last time they reboot Spider-Man.  Pick a Parker, and stick with it, Marvel!

[JustaPerson]

The first 2 were Sony's handiwork though? lol

[gator12]

20 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

The first 2 were Sony's handiwork though? lol

I think its funny that people blame Disney/Marvel for Sony and Fox's handiwork

[VCRTracking]

It's still a Sony picture even though it's set in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[BetterButter]

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by BetterButter

[JustaPerson]

So Winter Soldier is the political/espionage thriller, Ant-Man is the heist film, and now Spider-Man is a teen coming-of-age movie? All with a superhero twist. And I see they're already paying homage to the Toby Maguire train stopping moment of Spider Man 2 with Peter trying to hold a boat together single-handedly. Also was that Zendaya? She looks so un-glam. She still looks great tho. 

Love that robbers are wearing Avengers masks now. I guess President masks aren't cool anymore?

So...REALLY excited for this...

[Jazzy24]

I. LOVE. THIS. SO. MUCH!!!!

And the last shot of my Iron Man and Spider-Man is GOLD Marvel??

I love Tony in this trailer, it's everything I ever wanted. 

[VCRTracking]

Really liked the trailer especially the high school stuff.

I know some people are sick of Tony/RDJ but I like him being a mentor to Peter and Downey's chemistry with Holland is great.

Michael Keaton's Vulture looked cool.

[starri]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Michael Keaton's Vulture looked cool.

I just don't want this to be Spider-Man 2 redux, and I just kind of got those kind of vibes for some reason.

Because Spider-Man 2 is pretty close to perfect, and just trying to ape it isn't the right tack.

[Spartan Girl]

Looks pretty good. I'm glad to see Tony keeping busy mentoring Peter after Civil War. The Avengers robbery made me laugh.

All I ask -- ALL I ASK -- is that this Mary Jane does not become another whiny damsel in distress. This is your last chance to get this right, Marvel (or whoever).

[benteen]

That trailer is AWESOME!

[Morrigan2575]

That trailer looks surprisingly good. I guess this is RDJs new role, buddy cop in every Marvel movie. I could dig it.

I think MCU got Spidey right, hopefully they don't screw it up like Sony did (repeatedly).

[JustaPerson]

Lucky RDJ. Show up for a few days, collect that hefty paycheck. Red carpet. Rinse and repeat until Infinity Wars

"This is not a hug, I'm just getting the door for you."

[dusang]

On 8/19/2016 at 8:25 AM, Kromm said:

Well the most "authentic" choice for a Spidey THAT young would actually be Betty Brant.  Who predates BOTH Gwen and MJ.  But (other than a single scene in Spider-man 3) none of the toon or movie versions have ever really wanted to run with that before, and I doubt this would break that precedent, because Betty had the twist of being the (slightly) older woman who flirted with Peter at the Daily Bugle while he was still in High School. 

Just looked at IMDb -- Zendaya is credited as "Michelle" and Angourie Rice is credited as "Betty Brandt".  She played Ryan Gosling's daughter in The Nice Guys; Wikipedia says she's 15 years old.  Not so much the "older woman"!

[Kromm]

14 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

I. LOVE. THIS. SO. MUCH!!!!

And the last shot of my Iron Man and Spider-Man is GOLD Marvel??

I love Tony in this trailer, it's everything I ever wanted. 

Good lord. It's like (for a change) someone actually went back and read actual Marvel Comics before making a movie out of them! (Sony and Fox being the ones who seem to do that least, but even Marvel Studios sometimes seems like they have to reinvent rather than stay true to the originals). Sure we've got updated styles, greater racial representation, the youngest Aunt May ever in a theatrical movie (a few of the toons have almost had her this young though), and more Tony Stark than the early Spidey encountered (which was some, but not this much). But the important thing is the TONE. You can have threats, like how we hear a baddie threaten everyone Spidey knows here, but when Spidey stuff turns to angst, it has to be earned among a whole ton of fun, energetic fare. This seems to have that tone. Peter Parker constantly mourns his Uncle, and spins off that old saw from Ben Parker about "with great power comes great responsibility". He feels guilty constantly about lives he fails to save. But he also ENJOYS being Spidey. He cracks jokes constantly. His main source of stress is reconciling his personal life around the superhero stuff (vs. the superhero stuff itself being the main stressor). 

Hopefully the whole movie lives up to this trailer, but the trailer looks like exactly what's needed for Spider-Man. Mind you, this is coming from someone who's liked a whole bunch of the Spider-Man cartoons, but never a SINGLE one of the theatrical movies. So... tough standards here.

45 minutes ago, dusang said:

Just looked at IMDb -- Zendaya is credited as "Michelle" and Angourie Rice is credited as "Betty Brandt".  She played Ryan Gosling's daughter in The Nice Guys; Wikipedia says she's 15 years old.  Not so much the "older woman"!

Yeah, that's a bit of a reinterpretation. Original Betty was barely out of High School, I believe, but she was definitely at least 2-3 years older than Peter by the time they actually dated.

[Kromm]

The one peculiarity (but one I don't mind) is that the overweight friend who's in on Peter's secret is NOT something from the original. It's a direct rip from the Miles Morales version of Spider-Man.

It's a weird thing to do in one way--borrow that concept I mean--but since it's actually something that kind of worked for Miles (because it gives someone for Miles, and now Peter, to bounce his reactions off), it's a good idea in the end, I think. Well, we shall see, in the context of the whole movie.

I already hear that this is controversial with the big Miles Morales fans though. They've been calling it "whitewashing"--that this is basically Miles movie (because of the character of the friend) and they just made him white and called him Peter.

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, dusang said:

Just looked at IMDb -- Zendaya is credited as "Michelle" and Angourie Rice is credited as "Betty Brandt".  She played Ryan Gosling's daughter in The Nice Guys; Wikipedia says she's 15 years old.  Not so much the "older woman"!

Oh, I liked her in The Nice Guys.

Quote

I already hear that this is controversial with the big Miles Morales fans though. They've been calling it "whitewashing"--that this is basically Miles movie (because of the character of the friend) and they just made him white and called him Peter.

That seems like a real stretch. Yeah it sucks that they took something from Ultimate Spider-Man and gave it to Peter Parker. But it's just one thing, they'd have to take a lot more than that for this to be a white washed Miles Morales movie.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[gator12]

Ned Leeds the friend in this film who knows Peter's secret has been in the comics since the 1960s and work at the daily bugle with Parker. I don't read the comics but the character has been around before Miles came along.

Who's the friend that knows Miles secret?

Edited December 9, 2016 by gator12

[Kromm]

36 minutes ago, gator12 said:

Ned Leeds the friend in this film who knows Peter's secret has been in the comics since the 1960s and work at the daily bugle with Parker. I don't read the comics but the character has been around before Miles came along.

Who's the friend that knows Miles secret?

I DO read the comic.

Putting aside Ned's race, which is a total non-issue in terms of it being changed, the reason this basically IS Miles' friend Ganke, just named "Ned Leeds" is because Ned wasn't really that close to Peter, and also.... he certainly didn't know Spider-Man's secret identity (also, as you mention, Ned works with Peter at The Daily Bugle, and isn't in High School at all--in fact even the earliest comic version of Ned appears to be Betty's age, or older). 

Also, while changing Ned's race means nothing, changing him to look so similar to the Miles' supporting character of Ganke, AND fill the identical role in his life? Well... as I said... can you be any more obvious than this?

It would be stupid and racist to say every Asian looks alike, but really... the weight/shape of him, him having the exact same relationship with "Spidey" (only a different one)... this is Ganke, not Ned Leeds. They just borrowed Ned's name from the older comics.

I'd actually heard a theory way back that an early version of this script was originally written for the Miles character (before Peter was stuck in Civil War), so this kind of supports that.  They went back and Parkerized a lot of it (for example, there's bound to be more than a little involving Aunt May, who's situation, even de-aged, is very different than Miles' parents) but even the bones of the high school stuff isn't that different (because Miles was at least a little based on Peter in terms of a lot of HIS school stuff, in the first place). 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Kromm

[JessePinkman]

It's funny, I only read one TPB of Miles' run as Spider-Man and from what I recall much of his supporting cast (Aunt May, Mary Jane, Gwen) was white whereas the opposite is true of MCU's Peter. So that's interesting at least.

[Kromm]

8 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

It's funny, I only read one TPB of Miles' run as Spider-Man and from what I recall much of his supporting cast (Aunt May, Mary Jane, Gwen) was white whereas the opposite is true of MCU's Peter. So that's interesting at least.

May, MJ and Gwen eventually kind of faded from Miles' storyline even in the Ultimate Universe.

But... also, Miles had a reboot.  They eliminated the whole Ultimate Universe and did a really awkward thing where Miles magically wound up in the "real" Marvel Universe, and he's been there now for a few years.  It's honestly kind of stupid IMO (the whole current Marvel thing of not just having legacy heroes like they've always had, but now the legacies AND the originals both hang around and use the same name--besides Spidey they are doing this with Wasp, Thor, and did it recently but stopped with Hulk and Iron Man), but the end result is that Miles is NOT surrounded by Peter Parker's friends and family, because... this isn't even the same Peter Parker (that one in the Ultimate Universe famously died--nothing I'm unfairly spoiling here because it was so pumped up in the press at the time)--and this Peter's friends and family have no reason to know or even interact with Miles (plus Gwen is back to being dead, since it's the original Gwen and not the Ultimate Universe one, and May is back to being really really really old). 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Kromm

[Kromm]

On 12/8/2016 at 0:52 PM, VCRTracking said:

It's still a Sony picture even though it's set in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

They just paid for it. The creative decisions were Marvels this time.

[Valerie]

I am literally 99.9% invested in this movie because of RDJ. I am admitting that upfront.

And if Tony/May turns into anything, HEADS WILL ROLL. Or be chopped off.

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Valerie said:

I am literally 99.9% invested in this movie because of RDJ. I am admitting that upfront.

And if Tony/May turns into anything, HEADS WILL ROLL. Or be chopped off.

Why? Just curious.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other but, my first thought after seeing the car scene (no idea why) was, "is Tony dating May now"?

[JessePinkman]

My only concern with Tony being so involved with Peter's life is that so much of the drive of the character is that he's broke. And I can't imagine Tony standing by as this kid and his aunt struggle to pay rent.

But maybe that won't really be a part of this cinematic narrative.

[Valerie]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Why? Just curious.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other but, my first thought after seeing the car scene (no idea why) was, "is Tony dating May now"?

Because I am still pissed as hell that they wrote out Pepper just to further Tony’s manpain

[Jazzy24]

I also like how Peter is trying to become an Avenger #GOALS and Tony ain't having it. I had a huge smile on my face of the last shot of Iron Man and Spider Man cause Peter and Tony's relationship is too cute and I like how Peter looks up to Tony. 

[JustaPerson]

Ah, the trials of high school and trying to become an Avenger...

[Which Tyler]

8 hours ago, Valerie said:

Because I am still pissed as hell that they wrote out Pepper just to further Tony’s manpain

I thought the wrote out Pepper because Paltrow's contract ran out, and she didn't want to renew? Hasn't she taken a break from all acting now?

Edited December 10, 2016 by Which Tyler

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, she is currently on an acting break. 

[VCRTracking]

The line that stuck out for me was Peter saying he's sick of Tony treating him like a kid, which probably means he's going to take on the Vulture and any other bad guys on his own, without asking for any help to prove himself.

[BetterButter]

Sony sets 2019 release date for Spider-Man: Homecoming 2

[Tenshinhan]

On 12/9/2016 at 3:10 PM, Kromm said:

Yeah, that's a bit of a reinterpretation. Original Betty was barely out of High School, I believe, but she was definitely at least 2-3 years older than Peter by the time they actually dated.

Original Betty Brant and Peter Parker are supposed to be roughly the same age.  Betty took the job at the Bugle after having dropped out of high school, to support her family or something or other, before meeting Peter.  She's often depicted as being older because of her career status and distance from Parker's classmates.  Ned Leeds was supposed to be the "older guy" in his early twenties to come between Pete and Betty.

Quote

It would be stupid and racist to say every Asian looks alike, but really... the weight/shape of him, him having the exact same relationship with "Spidey" (only a different one)... this is Ganke, not Ned Leeds. They just borrowed Ned's name from the older comics.

Supposedly, in The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, Ned Leeds was re-imagined as a Korean-American named Ned Lee.  I have to wonder if the writers were aware of this when they brought in the "Ganke" character.

My guess is that they wanted to include supporting characters to round out the teen group, but after the last five films did NOT want to go anywhere near any Osborns, and also why it looks like they cast characters like Liz and Betty instead of Gwen and (maybe, maybe not) MJ.

I'm also betting that the 'Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane' comic series played a part in the writers' minds, considering the high school/teen dynamic of those stories along with the Homecoming dance plot.