S06.E04: Season 6, Episode 4

[margol29]

We should all look as shabby as Mary!

[Llywela]

I had a thought when Anna mentioned the new maids who were not living in. I thought maybe they were lesbians? Not that I think Fellows would acknowledge that, but I think it would be an interesting way to go, since Thomas is so closeted, that maids could be kind of "out".

Why would the maids not living in imply lesbianism? It just means that they are living in their own homes and commuting to work in the morning, going home at night, as you or I would, rather than living their entire lives under Downton's roof. She didn't say they were living together. She said they weren't living at the house. It was to imply a social shift - the world is moving away from the traditional pattern of huge households of servants who all lived in and had very little freedom, toward the new pattern where households had a much smaller staff who lived their own lives outside of the household. Bates and Anna no longer live in. Carson and Mrs Hughes no longer live in. It's a sign of the changing times. Staff not living in means the household no longer has to pay to feed and house them, so it represents a saving

[Roseanna]

I believe Mary was comparing Edith to the monkey.

 

But if Mary meant to say that she's the monkey, it still sounds as if she's backing off the compliment.  The reason it takes the monkey so long to type out the Bible is that the monkey isn't consciously trying to type out the Bible.  The monkey just typed out a random series of characters that eventually happened to have meaning to others, but that that have no meaning to the monkey.  So if Mary is the monkey, it sure sounds as if her compliment was insincere.

 

I understood Mary meant Edith because we saw Edith type in the previous episode. 

But I must confess that I clearly misunderstood what the sentence means in English, for to me it's clear that a monkey cannot create the Bible (or Shakespeare's works) even it tried hard.

[teddysmom]

I was never a Mary fan, and was more or less pro-Edith after season 1 (until last season when she got on my last nerve). What I think is really missing has been Sybil. She was the one everyone could like, and IIRC, got on well with both of her sisters. I don't remember now if she was actively a peacemaker between them, or if she just provided relief from the constant bickering. But Gwen's lovely story brought back lots of good memories, and reminded me why I'd liked the show in the first place.

 

Remember when Mary Edith & Anna took off together in the middle of the night to bring Sybil back from her almost elopement with Tom?  That was fun and showed that the sisters really could band together for a common cause. 

 

I can understand the Mary/Edith relationship. I love my sister, but when we are around each other for more than 24 hours she drives me crazy.  We are as different as night and day or Mary & Edith.  

[ShadowFacts]

As to the monkey and the typewriter, I had actually never heard the phrase before, I don't know if it's common in England or was just a line written for the show.  I am familiar with 'even a broken clock is right twice a day', which is a little less hyperbolic.  But it means something similar to me, that a thing said or done was not really intentional.  I took it to mean that Mary was saying Edith did something accidentally smart, because Mary isn't known for sincere positive remarks to or about Edith.  I never thought of the other interpretation, but even when I look at it that way, as has been mentioned above, it makes Mary look like she wasn't meaning to compliment her sister.

[kassa]

I saw it as Mary bristling at her aunt's implied criticism and calling her on it.  A nicer way of saying "Yeah, Auntie, we all know I'm a total bitch so it must have been a complete random accident that I said something nice to Edith."  

[lulee]

I thought the "monkey" comment was clearly an allusion to the Infinite Monkey Theorem,   which posits an extremely unlikely but not impossible event.

ETA: Note that the theorem was first published in 1913, prior to the events of season 1. So it's not farfetched to assume that by the events of this episode, the concept would have been discussed in society.

Edited January 26, 2016 by lulee

[SusanSunflower]

 

I thought the "monkey" comment was clearly an allusion to the Infinite Monkey Theorem,   which posits an extremely unlikely but not impossible event.

... but also not an intentional or conscious outcome ...  I wasn't sure if she was talking about her compliment or Edith's success ... and apparently I wasn't alone ...  Mary's not given to self-deprecation ... 

Her comment about looking shabby in Rosamund's dress, in another era, might be considered "fishing for a compliment"  ... at least she gave him permission to give her an intense look-over ... and scored his approval ... 

Edited January 26, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Constantinople]

Staff not living in means the household no longer has to pay to feed and house them, so it represents a saving

I would think the housing bill would be pretty minimal for servants who still live in the main house. There would be extra food, but the house may get reduced prices for buying larger orders. There is the time that Mrs. Patmore, Daisy and other kitchen staff spend preparing meals for the staff. If they didn't have to feed any staff, presumably the size of the kitchen staff could be reduced, but Mrs. Patmore will be around regardless. The marginal cost of any time she spends feeding staff is zero. Moreover, if staff live elsewhere, they'll have to be paid enough so that the staff can afford to feed and house themselves.

 

 

As to the monkey and the typewriter, I had actually never heard the phrase before, I don't know if it's common in England or was just a line written for the show.  I am familiar with 'even a broken clock is right twice a day', which is a little less hyperbolic.  But it means something similar to me, that a thing said or done was not really intentional.  I took it to mean that Mary was saying Edith did something accidentally smart, because Mary isn't known for sincere positive remarks to or about Edith.  I never thought of the other interpretation, but even when I look at it that way, as has been mentioned above, it makes Mary look like she wasn't meaning to compliment her sister.

I've heard the phrase before, but with Shakespeare, not the Bible.

Wikipedia: Infinite Monkey Theorem in Popular Culture

[Llywela]

I would think the housing bill would be pretty minimal for servants who still live in the main house. There would be extra food, but the house may get reduced prices for buying larger orders. There is the time that Mrs. Patmore, Daisy and other kitchen staff spend preparing meals for the staff. If they didn't have to feed any staff, presumably the size of the kitchen staff could be reduced, but Mrs. Patmore will be around regardless. The marginal cost of any time she spends feeding staff is zero. Moreover, if staff live elsewhere, they'll have to be paid enough so that the staff can afford to feed and house themselves.

Staff who live out aren't paid any extra - they just take responsibility for feeding and housing themselves. And I know it isn't a huge saving, but staff living out instead of living in was part of the whole process of downsizing for estates like Downton - over time, the servants wings would be closed off, etc.

[Kat From Jersey]

I don't feel sorry for Thomas. He's a miserable jerk who wants everyone else to be miserable too. I was glad that he ended up looking like a spiteful clown over it all. Technically he shouldn't have spoken anyway, right? 

 

I thought the same thing.  Even though he was acting Butler at the time, it's still not the butler's place to join in the conversation at lunch.  That in itself was a big breach of etiquette, imo.  But, I know the scene was all about Thomas' journey of self-discovery as to what a total ass he is. Baxter was right; he's his own worst enemy, but at least now he finally realizes it.

 

Thomas was always one of my favorite fun characters to watch, though I give a lot of credit to the gorgeous and talented Rob James-Collier for his take on the role.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I thought the same thing.  Even though he was acting Butler at the time, it's still not the butler's place to join in the conversation at lunch.  That in itself was a big breach of etiquette, imo.  But, I know the scene was all about Thomas' journey of self-discovery as to what a total ass he is. Baxter was right; he's his own worst enemy, but at least now he finally realizes it.

 

What is the butler's function at meals?  The footmen serve, what does the butler do, watch them so they don't mis-serve?  I was wondering that while watching Carson stand in the dining room at dinner a couple episodes ago, where Thomas, Andrew and Molesley were serving the small family group, no extra guests, and Carson was there, too.  I get that he can't be in the conversation, but have we seen Carson in the past whisper something to one of the family?  That's what Thomas should have done about Gwen's identity, or pass a note.

[lucindabelle]

Staff who live out aren't paid any extra - they just take responsibility for feeding and housing themselves. And I know it isn't a huge saving, but staff living out instead of living in was part of the whole process of downsizing for estates like Downton - over time, the servants wings would be closed off, etc.

it might cost a bi t more but consider how much more freedom they have! go to sleep when they like, see a follower after work, have dinner when they want to.... HUGE.

[CeeBeeGee]

it might cost a bi t more but consider how much more freedom they have! go to sleep when they like, see a follower after work, have dinner when they want to.... HUGE.

 

Can you imagine having to ask your boss if you can walk into the village? See a movie? It's incredible how stifling and patriarchal life in service was. And this version of the system was an improvement--I remember in The Secret Garden Martha, the housemaid who occasionally waits on Mary Lennox, talking about how she gets one day off a month (!!!!). (And that one day she walks 12 miles to her mother's house where she cleans and bakes for her.)

I thought the same thing.  Even though he was acting Butler at the time, it's still not the butler's place to join in the conversation at lunch.  That in itself was a big breach of etiquette, imo.  But, I know the scene was all about Thomas' journey of self-discovery as to what a total ass he is. Baxter was right; he's his own worst enemy, but at least now he finally realizes it.

 

Thomas was always one of my favorite fun characters to watch, though I give a lot of credit to the gorgeous and talented Rob James-Collier for his take on the role.

 

Agreed, he is very talented and his Thomas is beautifully layered. I would hate Thomas a lot more if a different actor portrayed him!

[Roseanna]

I saw it as Mary bristling at her aunt's implied criticism and calling her on it.  A nicer way of saying "Yeah, Auntie, we all know I'm a total bitch so it must have been a complete random accident that I said something nice to Edith."  

 

But Rosamund did not criticize Mary, on the contrary she praised her.

 

Of course Mary could ​interpret that Rosamund's words included criticism but Rosamund has never before used double meanings, on the contrary her habit is to speak just what she thinks.

 

I think it illustrates well that even if you want to make a compliment, the other can interpret it otherwise. In this case, Rosamund wouldn't have praised Mary, if Mary had a habit to be civil to Edith, so the praise was intended as encourage Mary to continue the same. But because only a child is usually treated at that way, the influence on Mary was opposite.

[ScoobieDoobs]

I maintain that Mary was framing herself as the monkey given that Rosamund was questioning what *Mary* had just done, and thus Mary answered with herself as the subject of her sentence -- and she was the "writer" of the compliment to Edith just as the monkey is the writer in the analogy. And Mary meant what she said to Edith sincerely - the parallel of her comment is to the Bible, after all, not dime store pulp fiction or whatever.

But this is not to say that Mary has turned over a new lead toward Edith. On the contrary, she indicates that complimenting Edith is not easy for her and her comment to Rosamund acknowledges that kindness toward Edith is extremely rare. It was a baby step off kindness from Mary and one that came with no guarantee of repetition.

 

Well, this is a truly kind way of seeing Mary -- at least in this undoubtedly rare moment.  Sorry, I can't look at Mary this way -- er, EVER.  That just ain't who she is -- pretty much ever.  And if she is merely trying to momentarily be this way, I have a hard time believing her sincerity.  Ah, given the sneer on her mug when she spat out this comment?  My vote is she was comparing Edith to a monkey & once again belittling her abilities.

[Mrsjumbo]

I can't find the OP to quote it, but Bates said "For once, I agree with you" to Thomas, not Baxter.

The servants were speculating on what was up with Willis-Baxter-Molesley, and Thomas told the servants that it was Baxter and Molesley's own business.

No, I just watched the scene again.

Andy: but what's Lady Mary's emergency?

Baxter: it's none of our business

Mr Bates: very true, ms Baxter. for once I agree with you.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Mrsjumbo

[Artymouse]

I have to admit that when Mary made the "monkey" comment, I automatically assumed it was a snark against Edith. Because considering the ratio of snark to nice, the scales weigh heavily on the "snark" side.

 

But after reading others' interpretations and thinking a bit more, I'm leaning toward the idea that Mary was comparing herself to the monkey. I'll have to watch again to decide for sure, but to me, Mary's being nice in this context was a result of her realization of how loving Sybil had been and how "pettish" she herself had been.

 

And when it comes to the Edith/Mary relationship, I don't have a dog in that fight; I like and dislike both characters about equally. I think they're like all human beings in that they have flaws as well as moments of great kindness, along with stupid decisions and irrational biases against other people (family members or strangers). It's one of the things I love about the show, that most of the characters have multiple dimensions and layers.

 

Edited because proofreading and correct spelling are virtues.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Artymouse

[proserpina65]

As far as him speaking for her, she did say "obey" in her wedding vows. As much as I hate that word, it was like that back then.

 

Not for everyone: Laura Ingalls Wilder specifically chose not to use "obey" in her wedding vows in 1885.  But she was certainly a rare exception.

 

I did think that Elsie seemed a little surprised when Carson made the statement about using Mrs. Hughes instead of Mrs. Carson, like they hadn't discussed it beforehand, but given the probable confusion, it certainly makes sense.

[madam magpie]

For me, even if Mary did mean Edith was the monkey who had a good idea only once in a blue moon, who cares? Mary is a snarky bitch. That's her thing. She'd have loved Twitter, websites where people snark on TV shows, etc. and was before her time in that way. I mean, yeah, she doesn't get along with her sister, who, frankly, is just as snarky and mean to her. That's their relationship. It's messed up, and I'd like to see them grow out of it eventually. But it's not like Mary and Edith are 80 and looking back on the mistakes of their lives. They're still living those lives and haven't yet found common ground. They're also not all that old...maybe 32-, 34-ish? Mary at least seems to notice occasionally how destructive it all is. Edith basically just goes about her life snarking on Mary like it's just how life is. Not to mention that Violet is about as bad as Mary, but everyone loves her. So why is Lady Mary the beast and Edith her victim? Because Edith is a year younger? Do we seriously expect a year or two age difference to mean one child should be substantially more mature? Is it because Mary's confident, decisive, and sharp? If she were a man or an old lady, I doubt anyone would care. She'd be called a ball buster, and we'd all move on with our day.

Edited January 26, 2016 by madam magpie

[helenamonster]

They're going to have to put a separate track on the train from London to ease the unending trips by the policeman. Dear god, enough already. 

 

Sergeant Willis is actually a Downton policeman.

 

The whole time Rose Leslie was on Game of Thrones I kept expecting her to say "I want to be a secretary!" She finally comes back to Downton Abbey and I kept waiting for her to say "You know nothing Jon Snow!" She has such a distinctive accent - does anyone know what region it is? Anyway, that was one of the loveliest scenes they've had in a long time and nice tribute to Sybil. 

 

Wikipedia says that Rose Leslie grew up in Aberdeenshire, Scotland, if that means anything to you. I know next to nothing about Scottish regional accents.

 

Thomas hadn't earned the right to speak as he did, whereas Carson maybe would have, though probably would not because he is kind towards good employees.  Its uppidy assholes like Thomas and Daisy that rightly earn his wrath.  I can't believe how rude Daisy almost was to Cora, though Cora probably should have tried to say something to Daisy beforehand, since she obviously knew Daisy thought the farm was fait accompli.

 

But didn't Cora tell Daisy that nothing was guaranteed? Daisy's whole thing was "well, she implied it which is the same as a verbatim promise so if she goes back on it she's just another wicked cog in the class system machine." Everyone and their uncle was trying to tell Daisy that nothing was set in stone and to not get her hopes up (or Mr. Mason's). It almost seems like Daisy is so fed up with the system that she's looking for any excuse to bitch one of the toffs out and get fired. I know there was talk this episode about Thomas being his own worst enemy, but Daisy is hers as well.

 

Anna looked so lovely with her hat on when she and Mary were leaving, because we couldn't see that horrible wig. Since JoFro has blond hair, why bother with a wig to begin with?

 

JoFro is blonde but it's clearly color-treated/not natural which wouldn't look right on Anna in 1925, who I think is supposed to be older than her, has been through so much that her hair really shouldn't be looking that healthy, and barely gets any time in the sun. The wig is definitely awful but the character needs one. I think JoFro has always worn wigs, they just used to be better.

 

I don't get it either, Constantinople. Especially where there's Bates and Mrs. Bates. What's the big deal, they'll get used to it.

 

Anna is still Anna to everyone upstairs, though, and most people downstairs. I think the only people who call her Mrs. Bates are the ones who came to the house after she and Bates were married and she was promoted to lady's maid. Baxter calls her Mrs. Bates.

 

If they are setting Robert up for a heart attack he has been clutching his stomach, not his heart. So maybe it's something not so dire, like an ulcer?

 

It was an ulcer in the CS, and for awhile he was watching his diet  and not drinking. Cora's been telling him to lay off the port, and she's probably right. Also, why he can't he just flit up to London to see a fancy doctor like Mary? That's what's bothering me, that he's clearly in pain and isn't doing anything medically to help himself when he both can and has done so in the past.

 

What is the butler's function at meals?  The footmen serve, what does the butler do, watch them so they don't mis-serve?  I was wondering that while watching Carson stand in the dining room at dinner a couple episodes ago, where Thomas, Andrew and Molesley were serving the small family group, no extra guests, and Carson was there, too.  I get that he can't be in the conversation, but have we seen Carson in the past whisper something to one of the family?  That's what Thomas should have done about Gwen's identity, or pass a note.

 

Yes, I think the butler is supposed to oversee the meal and give directions to the footmen when needed. The only time I've ever seen Carson speak at a meal is when he's been spoken to, and he always looks a little taken by surprise when he's addressed.

 

I'm fine with Mary not mentioning to Henry what happened to Matthew. We all know what she's thinking. Also, they don't know each other very well yet and that seems like it would be an awkward conversation. How do you politely tell someone that you can't invest in their hobby because something similar killed your husband? And this is in a time before car accidents were as common as they are now.

 

I also can't blame Gwen for not bringing up her past employment without prompting. I think there were a couple times where she tried but got cut off. Also, it was only 2 years out of her life, and she'd left 11 years ago; even though there were things that happened during her employment that changed her life, the person responsible for them (Sybil) wasn't there anymore. Yes, Tom was there, but still, I understand how it could be a little awkward. I had an internship for a semester where I only met the boss once, and very briefly, even though I saw him a few times each day that I was there...if I happened to run into him and mentioned that I'd interned for him it would probably be very awkward, at least for a moment, because we had met (and unlike Gwen with the Crawleys we'd actually talked and I'd introduced myself) but I sincerely doubt, in six semesters now of interns that he's had, that he would remember me.

[SusanSunflower]

Gwen left before Tom broke the no-ex-servants in the dining room ban ... She wouldn't have mentioned it to avoid discomfiting her hosts. 

The problem with no one recognizing Gwen was that it refuted the family's paternalistic mythology that they were the benevolent guardians and benefactors of downstairs ... every sparrow, sorta. 

Also realizing that Sybil actually did things ... actions speaking louder than words... with Gwen's transformation into another do-gooder as the result. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[fishcakes]

It's amazing to me how hard people are arguing that Mary paying Edith a compliment is evidence that Mary treats Edith terribly.

Edited January 26, 2016 by fishcakes

[proserpina65]

His face isn't puffy and his head is still small.

 

I think his face looks quite puffy - it's where I noticed the weight gain first.

The wardrobes continue to impress. Loved Mary's pleated blouse in the scene with the doctor in London.

 

It was lovely, and that green dress Edith wore at dinner was the most gorgeous thing I've seen on television in a very long time.

[helenamonster]

Also, for all the talk of how things are changing and large estates with an impressive staff are disappearing, I felt it mostly during this episode during any scenes downstairs. That place used to be an absolute madhouse with people constantly bumping into each other in the corridor...now it seems so bare in comparison, with barely any staff members that don't have names/lines.

[proserpina65]

So tired of the way she is scared to tell him anything

 

I didn't read it as Anna being afraid of telling Bates about the pregnancy as much as her not wanting to get his hopes up since she'd lost previous pregnancies.  I know someone who did something similar until she was sure it was going to be okay, so I didn't see Anna's behavior as odd or anything.  But I am glad it looks like things will be looking up for them, because I've always like them as a couple.

[SusanSunflower]

 

Also, for all the talk of how things are changing and large estates with an impressive staff are disappearing, I felt it mostly during this episode during any scenes downstairs.

yes, and upstairs census lost Sybil and Matthew and gained Sybbie and George and Marigold (and respective nannies) ... cost-cutting by downsizing increasing the workload as usual ...

see also using "temps" i.e. day-labor, who need to be shown the lay of the land and supervised closely until vetted ... because the extra work for downstairs is cheaper ... 

Edited January 26, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Kohola3]

Thomas was always one of my favorite fun characters to watch, though I give a lot of credit to the gorgeous and talented Rob James-Collier for his take on the role.

 

It's amazing to see and hear the actors when not in character. To me, Thomas always looks like a vampire with the milk white skin and black slicked-back hair.  In normal dress and hair Rob is a handsome dude.  Same with Jim Carter - Carson's stick-up-his-rear attitude drives me nuts but I love to watch him when he's not in character.

I guess that's what defines good actors - they are not just playing themselves in a role but creating totally different characters.

[crowceilidh]

 

And I have to give a shout-out to Harriet Walter, who played Lady Shackleton. She was Harriet Vane to Edward Petherbridge's Lord Peter Wimsey in my favorite BBC version of the Dorothy Sayers mysteries.

 

She also played a doctor in Star Wars: The Force Awakens - both Dad and I exclaimed aloud in the theatre when she came on screen.  She was my favourite Harriet Vane ever.

[Crs97]

I totally get Gwen's not volunteering the information, but it did seem disingenuous to split hairs and tell Mary they hadn't been introduced. I took Mary's remark not as rudeness about rank but annoyance that she felt lied to. When they all started to marvel at how no one upstairs recognized her I thought Mary might have indicated that she had. Anyway, Gwen's discussion about Sybil made up for all of it.

[proserpina65]

I don't get it either, Constantinople. Especially where there's Bates and Mrs. Bates. What's the big deal, they'll get used to it.

Except that, upstairs at least and to Carson and Mrs. Hughes, there's Bates and Anna.  They did specifically mention that they'd decided to continue to call Anna 'Anna' because it would've been too confusing to follow tradition for ladies' maids and call her 'Bates'.

[proserpina65]

She also played a doctor in Star Wars: The Force Awakens - both Dad and I exclaimed aloud in the theatre when she came on screen.  She was my favourite Harriet Vane ever.

I had the privilege of seeing her in a production of The Children's Hour at the National Theatre in London nearly 11 years ago now, in which she was utterly fantastic - her range just blows me away.

[iMonrey]

 

 

I wonder when children get a maid/valet.  Would an unmarried guy get a valet?  The girls all shared Anna until Mary got married -- I wonder when that kicked in.  Maybe the governess handled that until she left?

I imagine it would be more difficult to get a teenage boy to dress to the nines on his own than a teenage girl. Especially in the days when a tuxedo was considered the equivalent of pajamas.

 

The "young master" would be dressed by one of the footmen, when he is at home and not away at boarding school. I think once out of school, when traveling, he'd probably take a footman with him to serve as valet. Young ladies get help dressing from the housemaids, but don't get a lady's maid until they're married. However they're allowed to keep them when they become widows.

 

 

What is the butler's function at meals?

 

Literally? He announces it's ready and holds the door open. LOL.

[Llywela]

Wikipedia says that Rose Leslie grew up in Aberdeenshire, Scotland, if that means anything to you. I know next to nothing about Scottish regional accents.

Rose Leslie is Scottish, but the accent she uses for Gwen is broad Yorkshire.

[kassa]

I don't find the name conundrum so weird.  They gave servants random names all the time -- in an early season, wasn't somebody told he couldn't use his name because they already had somebody by that name?  (Could be mixing up my historical dramas, I suppose)

 

In the case of Mrs. Hughes, as far as we know she's been there since before the girls were even born/for most of Cora and Robert's marriage.  Yes, it would be weird to suddenly call her by a different name -- especially the name of somebody else who has also been around for decades.  They were ready to do it, just acknowledging the weirdness. But yes, relief at knowing they didn't have to.

[skyways]

Actually Allister Bruce complained about it in an interview I've read. He said he had to constantly remind him not to slouch. He said it politely of course, but it was clear he was a bit annoyed by it or at least found it tiresome.

 

Yes I did read that about how he found it a challenge to coach Matthew Goode to fit in to the whole Downton etiquettes. I remember reading it and thinking no wonder he came off as a cardboard.

[SusanSunflower]

Henry is supposed to be rather louche ["disreputable or sordid in a rakish or appealing way"], especially in that "car palace" dinner scene, the flatness of which I blame on camera angle (too far away, not intimate) and the lighting (too dark) -- if there was a spark (and there may have been), we missed it. I think Mary's too animated in other scenes -- hello Tom!!! -- to blame Dockerty's personal life.  I rewatched 1/2 hour of Imitation Game which included a scene with Goode's character central in a room filled with about 20 characters - he nailed it ...  Dockerty does better in reaction, but she's uneven and her serial lack of chemistry can't be ignored. Goode might well have been holding back, in true Downton fashion. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[fastiller]

Exactly.  Either he'll die or he won't (I hope "won't"), but either way it will involve an emergency situation with no time to get to London or to get a London doctor, Clarkson will be stymied, and Violet will see the value of having improved medical care available locally.  

I was thinking the same thing through the episode, except in my scenario it was Anna.  Could still happen though, I guess.

[ShadowFacts]

 

What is the butler's function at meals?

 

Literally? He announces it's ready and holds the door open. LOL.

Yeah that is funny.  That part of Carson's job is superfluous, one of the footmen could manage that.  But then I don't get grown people needing someone to dress them. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

I didn't read it as Anna being afraid of telling Bates about the pregnancy as much as her not wanting to get his hopes up since she'd lost previous pregnancies.  I know someone who did something similar until she was sure it was going to be okay, so I didn't see Anna's behavior as odd or anything.  But I am glad it looks like things will be looking up for them, because I've always like them as a couple.

 

She seems absolutely terrified of him.  Or at least terrified to tell him anything unpleasant or bad.  Does she dig this, cuz I know I'd hate to be in a relationship with someone like that.  Seems horrible to me.  Even when he's being sweet to her, he skeers me.  What about when she was leaving with Mary & he refused to believe her story & was interrogating her?  Ew.  Dude just gives me the creeps.  Always has.  I never got what she saw in him.  He isn't good looking, he's way older than her & he's just so creepy & charmless & humorless.

[renatae]

She seems absolutely terrified of him.  Or at least terrified to tell him anything unpleasant or bad.  Does she dig this, cuz I know I'd hate to be in a relationship with someone like that.  Seems horrible to me.  Even when he's being sweet to her, he skeers me.  What about when she was leaving with Mary & he refused to believe her story & was interrogating her?  Ew.  Dude just gives me the creeps.  Always has.  I never got what she saw in him.  He isn't good looking, he's way older than her & he's just so creepy & charmless & humorless.

 

I don't think she's afraid of him at all. She's afraid for him. He's always very gentle with her, and most others as well. The only people he speaks to in a harsh way or gives "the eye" to are those who he thinks are threatening someone he loves. Even Barrow just gets dismissive comments.

 

He didn't even harm his shrewish first wife after all she did to him. Anna doesn't want him to get his hopes up, not because she's afraid of repercussions, but because she doesn't want him to be hurt at another loss. It's debatable whether this is really the best course in marriage, but it's not on account of intimidation, but rather on account of her love for him. She said so at one point.

Edited January 27, 2016 by renatae

[magdalene]

Rose Leslie is Scottish, but the accent she uses for Gwen is broad Yorkshire.

And in real life Rose Leslie is an aristocrat if I remember this right.

[iMonrey]

 

Rose Leslie is Scottish, but the accent she uses for Gwen is broad Yorkshire.

 

Odd -she used the exact same accent in Game of Thrones. I'm guessing Ygritte wasn't supposed to be from York.

 

 

She seems absolutely terrified of him.  Or at least terrified to tell him anything unpleasant or bad.  Does she dig this, cuz I know I'd hate to be in a relationship with someone like that.  Seems horrible to me.  Even when he's being sweet to her, he skeers me.  What about when she was leaving with Mary & he refused to believe her story & was interrogating her?  Ew.  Dude just gives me the creeps.

 

What they're going for and what Brendan Coyle delivers can be interpreted as two different things, I agree. To this day I still wonder if he didn't really murder his wife Vera after all.

[Diane M]

I don't think she's afraid of him at all. She's afraid for him. He's always very gentle with her, and most others as well. The only people he speaks to in a harsh way or gives "the eye" to are those who he thinks are threatening someone he loves. Even Barrow just gets dismissive comments.

 

I totally agree.  John Bates adores his wife, and I think he's a handsome man.  It was proven that Vera poisoned herself, so case dismissed.

[mightycrone]

We should all look as shabby as Mary!

I wonder if this was a wink to the audience, who knows the stylish aunt in question.  

[SusanSunflower]

I really liked the Rosamund's dress on Mary ... it was less "twee", almost bohemian with it's tapestry-like pattern and drape, also deeper hued.  Actually, I think I most consistently favor Cora's clothes, just exquisite and very artistic. Edith's are "young professional," often stunning and modern. I also prefer Edith's wardrobe to Mary's though her color-palette isn't remotely close to mine. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Pallas]

What about when she was leaving with Mary & he refused to believe her story & was interrogating her?

  

When his wife was leaving for London in the middle of the night and lying about why?  And he knew her well enough to understand not only that she was lying but why: that she was miscarrying, yet keeping him in the dark for his own good, as she truly believed?  So that he let her know that he was aware of the deceit, then yielded and waited, worrying, for her to return?   

[Milburn Stone]

"All we were taught was French, prejudice and dance steps."

Mary, truth teller. Only time I ever liked her.

 

I thought she said "All we were taught was French prejudice, and dance steps."

 

As in "prejudice against the French."

 

But you could be right.

[SusanSunflower]

 

As in "prejudice against the French."

Thank you.  That at least makes sense and is something a real person might confess about their tutor. I had several none-too-bright elementary school teachers who taught things that I discovered later were categorically false .. not up for discussion, just false -- usually designed to PROVE American superiority in all things by, for example, disparaging the morals of the French ... 

[peggy06]

I believe Mary was comparing Edith to the monkey.

 

But if Mary meant to say that she's the monkey, it still sounds as if she's backing off the compliment.  The reason it takes the monkey so long to type out the Bible is that the monkey isn't consciously trying to type out the Bible.  The monkey just typed out a random series of characters that eventually happened to have meaning to others, but that that have no meaning to the monkey.  So if Mary is the monkey, it sure sounds as if her compliment was insincere.

I still think she was essentially saying to Rosamund, "Don't put too much stock in it." As in, anything might come out of anyone's mouth given enough time. Mary was noticeably judging herself this episode, and not coming up very well under her own scrutiny.