S06.E04: Season 6, Episode 4

[SusanSunflower]

Daisy was pretty much "adopted" into service as the neglected one-of-11 children of a poor home. Mrs. Patmore, as surrogate mother and mentor, would have definitely smacked some sense into her by now, and not gently, likely because Daisy's behavior would have been felt/seen to be reflection of Mrs. Patmore's mentorship. 

[teddysmom]

Note to Julian Fellowes - you don't have to drop a Gutenberg Bible on our heads.  We get the irony of Matthew being killed in a car crash and the latest target of Mary's Vagina of Death being into racing cars. 

[Andromeda]

Mary being reminded how sweet Sybil is than comparing herself to her sister.... She really can't see what a snobbish hose beast she is.

[CleoCaesar]

Can't believe that, once again, Carson and others rode roughshod over Mrs. Carson's feelings by deciding she would not be known as Mrs. Carson at the house.

 

That was a bizarre scene. The actress who plays Mrs. Hughes seemed to be playing it like she really didn't want to keep being called Mrs. Hughes and she was about to open her mouth and say so. But then the scene ended.

 

Carson's always been a mean, pompous ass. Mrs. Hughes shackled herself to the wrong man.

[Constantinople]

I don't understand the difficulty of distinguishing Mr. & Mrs. Carson.

 

Carson has always been referred to as Carson by the upstairs and Mr. Carson by the downstairs.

 

Mrs Hughes has always been referred to as Mrs. Hughes by the upstairs and downstairs.  Now she can be referred to as Mrs. Carson.

 

Am I missing something?

[Andromeda]

I don't get it either, Constantinople. Especially where there's Bates and Mrs. Bates. What's the big deal, they'll get used to it.

[magdalene]

I seriously doubt Carson knows "the mysteries of the universe".  I bet Mrs. Hughes was in for some sucky first time sex. Luckily she has no point of comparison.

[Clanstarling]

I was never a Mary fan, and was more or less pro-Edith after season 1 (until last season when she got on my last nerve). What I think is really missing has been Sybil. She was the one everyone could like, and IIRC, got on well with both of her sisters. I don't remember now if she was actively a peacemaker between them, or if she just provided relief from the constant bickering. But Gwen's lovely story brought back lots of good memories, and reminded me why I'd liked the show in the first place.
 

Can't believe that, once again, Carson and others rode roughshod over Mrs. Carson's feelings by deciding she would not be known as Mrs. Carson at the house. Phooey!

I assumed it would have been a topic they discussed during their honeymoon, so I didn't think twice about it. 
 

I still think Rosamund might be Edith's real mother. She made some weird remark about never having great-grandkids or something, and it reminded me that I thought Edith might be her daughter during the whole drama with Edith's pregnancy/Marigold's birth.

 I was thinking that myself - especially since Sybil and Mary have Cora's coloring - whereas Edith has Rosamund's - and Rosamund does seem to have a special relationship with Edith. Though that might be nudging into telenovela territory.
 

They are also showing Carson's regrets about "leaving" Downton. It's almost like he feels demeaned to be living outside the Abbey. Between that and his pushing the idea of a wedding at Downton, he is clearly very attached to the place and his connection with it. But I guess a certain amount of regret is natural. Coupled with the whole Carson/Hughes thing, though, I'd be perturbed if I were Elsie.

I think it's natural he would have mixed feelings. He is leaving the home he's had for, what, 30 or more years? Even if he'll be there every day, and he'll be sharing a home with the woman he loves, it is still hard to change the status quo.  I was absolutely thrilled to leave home (as in "good riddance!") - but still broke down in tears when I hauled out the last of my stuff. Change is overwhelming, good and bad.

Edited January 26, 2016 by clanstarling

[Artymouse]

"I couldn't be less interested in cars if I took a pill to achieve it" is my new favorite line, and I'm going to use it for everything I'm not interested in.

 

I loved this episode, it was my favorite of the season so far. So many great moments. Even though Thomas is an ass at every opportunity, I loved his courtyard scene with Miss Baxter. I felt like he was opening up more to her than he has to anyone in the whole series. He's still one of my top 5-ish characters, and I think it's because Rob James-Collier gives him so many layers. No matter how much hateful stuff he does, I can never hate him the way I've hated characters like O'Brien and Miss Denker. 

 

The Gwen scenes were wonderful, especially when she said Sybil's kindness had changed her life. Tom had such a poignant expression on his face, and I was glad that it made Mary think about her own behavior. The Mary and Anna scenes are always great, and I love how Mary took control of the situation so easily. My only qualm: Isn't it like a 30-minute drive to York and a two-hour train ride to London? It just seems like Anna was on the brink of miscarriage, and it doesn't seem like she could wait three hours to be seen by a doctor.

 

So many potential anvils, I can't decide which ones will fall in the next few episodes. Hot car racing guy driving a potential death mobile (but surely JF wouldn't make two of Mary's men die in the same way); Chekhov's indigestion; Carson's wistful look as he took the name tag off his door; Mr. Mason getting Yew Tree Farm and talking to Daisy about her role in it. 

 

Speaking of Daisy, I wanted Mrs. Patmore to give her a rolling pin upside the head. So snotty and stupid, and except for the fact that I love Mr. Mason, I would not have been sad to see her get fired. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Artymouse

[lulee]

So many potential anvils, I can't decide which ones will fall in the next few episodes. Hot car racing guy driving a potential death mobile (but surely JF wouldn't make two of Mary's men die in the same way); Chekhov's indigestion; Carson's wistful look as he took the name tag off his door; Mr. Mason getting Yew Tree Farm and talking to Daisy about her role in it.

Plus cityboy Andy suddenly expressing an interest in farming.

 

I wonder if Henry's racing is going to result in an ultimatum from Mary: car racing or me, and maybe that would result in the end for them. I wouldn't mind seeing Mary still single at the end. She would have her first love (Downton, a la Scarlett O'Hara) and her son from Matthew, her true love of the non-real-estate variety.

[CleoCaesar]

I wouldn't mind seeing Mary still single at the end. She would have her first love (Downton, a la Scarlett O'Hara)

 

Hear, hear. This show de facto ended for me with Matthew's death, and seeing Mary end up with someone else would lack any kind of emotional resonance for me (especially since we have just half a dozen episodes so find her a soulmate). Love the Mary and Scarlett similarity too. Stubborn, snotty, independent, unwilling to compromise, and loyal to their beloved family estate.

[Ripley68]

Tenant farmers paid rent or part of their crop to the landowner. Working the land with hired help and reaping all the profit, while charging rent for the houses makes much more financial sense. More profit

[Kohola3]

The scene with Gwen was annoying for me because I felt that she was being deceptive by not immediately identifying herself to the family.  So they never looked at her long enough to remember her face.  But now she was being essentially dishonest by agreeing to be a guest in their home without revealing her identity.

I don’t think it was deceptive at all. For one thing, it’s none of the Crawley’s business who she was.  She is now married to a man with whom Rosamund does business.  Gwen had no idea where she was going to for lunch until that morning;  it’s not as though she finagled an invitation on the sly.  I thought Mary was very rude to interrupt Isobel’s conversation not once, but twice.  And Gwen was correct in saying that they had never exactly met.  Below stairs staff is meant to ve invisible.  Both Barrow and Mary were insufferable to her – Mary with snotty statement about Gwen “having every opportunity” to say she’s worked there.

 

Isobel, Edith, and Cora were very gracious to her once Thomas opened his big trap.  Good for Gwen for her moving words about Sybil.

 

Mary needs more than a smile and a hand on the gear stick

 

Oh, Violet….

Visual anvils – the big scullery table with all of the empty seats.

[Artymouse]

I don't get it either, Constantinople. Especially where there's Bates and Mrs. Bates. What's the big deal, they'll get used to it.

 

But no one, except maybe the police officer who arrested her, ever refers to Anna as Mrs. Bates. Not even downstairs where they tend to be a little more formal.

[skyways]

Other than to Mary and Robert... to whom, exactly, has Carson been kind?

 

O'Brien's nephew, Alfred.

[boes]

Speaking of Daisy, I wanted Mrs. Patmore to give her a rolling pin upside the head. So snotty and stupid, and except for the fact that I love Mr. Mason, I would not have been sad to see her get fired. 

 

I lurk in this forum, post in others, but damn. Daisy is on my last nerve.  Each week she gets worse.  She has the brains of a flea and not one iota of manners at all.  And takes no responsibility for anything.  Selfish moronic twit.

Mrs. Patmore could swat her with a rolling pin and back her in a pie for all I care.

Most obnoxious character on Downton, and that's saying something.

[mightycrone]

Seeing Rosamund always makes me think "Why don't we see more Rosamund?"

 

Not seeing Denker & Spratt?  As restorative as a good broth!  ; )

[lucindabelle]

Just chiming in t say,Gwen.s use of "me" for "my" is a regionalism,not about education... Think John Lennon and "me boots." Im sure she wouldn't write that way and I for one am glad she doesn't feel the need to artificially change her dialect.

It's like, southerners say all y'all,and not because they're stupid, it's a regionalism.

Bates and bates I get, but since the housekeeper always was addressed with mrs. (Unlike mr Carson, whose mr occasionally got dropped), the mrs. Carson thing should not have been that tough after a few days.

[madam magpie]

I absolutely took it this way, too - Mary was referring to herself as the "monkey." She was downplaying any praise for the comment. I don't see how it could really be interpreted any other way. There was no reason for her to pay Edith a compliment if she didn't actually mean it, nobody would expect it given the frosty state of relations between them. So why would she lie to Edith's face and then snark behind her back?

I also absolutely thought Mary was referring to herself as the monkey, not Edith. Mary is the one who did something out of character (compliment her sister), not Edith. I took it to mean Mary was snarking on her own bitchiness and yes, basically telling Rosamund it was no big deal, as if the praise embarrassed her. But I love Mary and always have. I like her "bitch please" approach to life, her wit, her smarts, and her loyalty to the people she loves. She doesn't owe the world smiles and complacency. Go get it, Lady Mary! The hell with everyone else! Edited January 26, 2016 by madam magpie

[lucindabelle]

Whether she was deflecting a compliment or denying it it doesn't change that she said something supportive out loud.

[elle]

Do we ever hear what becomes of the Drewes?  With all the happiness for Mr. Mason and Daisy about getting Yew Tree farm, I wondered if the Drewes were compensated for leaving because of the Edith/Marigold or were they not even given a wave "good bye, good luck".

[Black Knight]

The difference is that Edith's snarkiness has been a bit more blatant and in front of multiple family members while Mary is more low key.

 

Mary complimented Edith on her decision to look for a female editor. She and Isobel supported Edith's call while other family members showed skepticism or disapproval. Edith has nothing to say when Mary adds her supportive comments and that's when she walks away. Rosamund is surprised and cautiously happy that Mary has praised Edith only for Mary to confide what she's really thinking. Mary's playing nice on the surface but she still feels the way that she feels because Edith gives her little reason to think that anything has changed in their relationship. I think it's true the other way around too. Edith doesn't have reason to think that her relationship with Mary will ever change so she gets in her digs where she can. She can't help it. I felt like this episode demonstrated that it's a two way street with them in the snarkiness department. 

Mary's snarkiness towards Edith has often been blatant and in front of other family members. Violet's smacked her down. Rosamunde has commented on it. The entire family is keeping the secret of Marigold from Mary because they expect she'd be a total asshole about it. Even Anna, one of the very few people who knows Mary's nice side, won't tell her about Marigold. I agree that it's very much a two-way street now between them, but I do blame Mary for how their dynamic got started in the first place. Given Mary's self-absorbed personality, it's not a huge leap to think that it started when Edith was born and Mary no longer had the status of being the only child, and consequently she was determined to be sure that Edith always knew her place as the second-best. Granted, Mary was probably not thrilled when Sybil was born either, but Sybil was thisshy of being a living saint, never someone to react angrily or unkindly, and who always thought the best of people, Mary included. So I think Sybil's goodness and the fact she loved Mary and thought well of Mary (which is catnip for Mary's ego) eventually disarmed Mary. Edith would have been more of a typical child, reacting back against the older sibling who's always putting her down and bullying her, which would only have increased Mary's ire, and here we are. One short compliment from Mary in this episode isn't going to undo all that. Note that Edith applauded very sincerely for Mary when she was announced the winner of the fair competition a couple of episodes back, so she's had her better moments with Mary too. It's just that they've been rare enough on both sides for each sister to always take it for a brief departure from the norm rather than any real change in the relationship.

 

Of course, this being mostly a feel-good show, I have a feeling this will all be resolved by Mary finding out about Marigold and being much nicer about it than everyone expected, finally paving the way for her and Edith to form a better relationship.

 

I assumed it would have been a topic they discussed during their honeymoon, so I didn't think twice about it. 

 

I think it's natural he would have mixed feelings. He is leaving the home he's had for, what, 30 or more years? Even if he'll be there every day, and he'll be sharing a home with the woman he loves, it is still hard to change the status quo.  I was absolutely thrilled to leave home (as in "good riddance!") - but still broke down in tears when I hauled out the last of my stuff. Change is overwhelming, good and bad.

Any one of the three things I mentioned (Carson's comment about the honeymoon feeling longer than it was, his suggestion that his wife continue to go by Mrs. Hughes when he's always been a huge stickler for rules, his attitude when he was looking around his room) would not, in itself, have made me think anything. It's that we had three of those things. It felt to me like the writers setting up something.

 

I don’t think it was deceptive at all. For one thing, it’s none of the Crawley’s business who she was.  She is now married to a man with whom Rosamund does business.  Gwen had no idea where she was going to for lunch until that morning;  it’s not as though she finagled an invitation on the sly.  I thought Mary was very rude to interrupt Isobel’s conversation not once, but twice.  And Gwen was correct in saying that they had never exactly met.  Below stairs staff is meant to ve invisible.  Both Barrow and Mary were insufferable to her – Mary with snotty statement about Gwen “having every opportunity” to say she’s worked there.

 

Isobel, Edith, and Cora were very gracious to her once Thomas opened his big trap.  Good for Gwen for her moving words about Sybil.

Yes, I thought Gwen was just thrown to find herself suddenly at the house she'd once worked at, and really wasn't sure what to even say, how to bring up her past. She hadn't had a relationship with any of the upstairs people other than Sybil (who we know the servants were always aware was especially nice), so she couldn't know how they would react to finding out she'd once worked there. She also couldn't entirely be sure that they would welcome her bringing up Lady Sybil and claiming a relationship with her. But once Thomas outed her, she saw that Cora, Edith and Isobel's attitudes were wholly gracious and friendly and welcoming, not at all snobby - and it probably took all three of them to outweigh Mary's rude attitude - and so she felt comfortable enough to bring up Sybil. She knew at that point from what Cora, Edith and Isobel had said that they wouldn't be upset to learn about Sybil secretly helping her.

[tenativelyyours]

Without going back, did we ever have a scene with Mary and Gwen the first season interacting?  I thought it was so silly that Mary of all people, who is a huge snob, should recognize a woman that actually it would be perfectly logical would never even meet.  Gwen was in the house when it was at the top of its social operating game.  Maids lite fires and cleaned and kept their heads down and didn't even speak to the Family.  Often making sure to leave a room as unnoticed as possible if a family member or guest entered.  If the house had kept to its standards pre-war and Gwen had stayed on her entire life, there is a good chance Mary would never have seen her face or heard her voice.  She'd have been a blob in a uniform when the staff came out to welcome the family home from Town.  People were still  stunned when Nancy Astor, this after the war, stopped to thank her staff at Cliveden House by individual and asked their names when they stood out to greet her on returning from somewhere -- not sure if she returned to the States for something or what.  Have to dig into the upcoming book on that house.  I'm still not sure if it was meant to highlight Mary's firm notion of place in society and heighten the drama of the 'reveal' since Edith and Cora both have a much more egalitarian look at others in life.  Mary only seems to help her own or pay back favors. 

[Mrsjumbo]

If they are setting Robert up for a heart attack he has been clutching his stomach, not his heart. So maybe it's something not so dire, like an ulcer?

[MaryHedwig]

My only qualm: Isn't it like a 30-minute drive to York and a two-hour train ride to London? It just seems like Anna was on the brink of miscarriage, and it doesn't seem like she could wait three hours to be seen by a doctor.

Why didn't Tom just drive them all the way to London?

If they are setting Robert up for a heart attack he has been clutching his stomach, not his heart. So maybe it's something not so dire, like an ulcer?

If his stomach is hurting now, how is it going to survive the crash of '29?

[Artymouse]

On the question of whether Mary ever met Gwen: Anna and Gwen were roommates, and when Mary came to the room to get Anna to help her with Pamuk's corpse, Gwen was sleeping in the next bed. And since Anna and Gwen were so close, and Mary and Anna were relatively close, it makes sense to me that she might have at least casually known Gwen, or at least recognized her face.

 

Back on topic, I also loved Mrs. Patmore's retorts to Daisy; Patmore is often a highlight of the downstairs scenes for me. I loved the Karl Marx/Madam Defarge remarks, and she's a character I'll really miss when the series ends. 

 

I'll probably rewatch later in the week; there are so many great moments that I've been reminded of by others' posts on here. 

[lucindabelle]

In 1925 no doubt the train would have been faster and smoother to London than the roads, I'm thinking.

[tenativelyyours]

It takes a little over four hours to drive from York to London. Today.   So driving the entire trip back then would have been even longer, less direct and less reliable than the train which I believe hasn't gotten that much faster or frequent than it would have been back then. 

[SusanSunflower]

Still I wondered as well ... even at 4 hours ... it was the middle of the night and the car would allow her to lie down in some privacy ... better than miscarrying in the relative public space of the train ... and to have access to towels and blankets, etc. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

Daisy bugged the crap out of me this episode. I didn't understand her anger.  Well, ok, I did in an adolescent way. But she's not an adolescent. She's a grown woman who already let her mouth get a beloved friend into trouble.

And a kitchen maid above stairs when she hadn't been summoned would have been totally awkward, even in the 1920's.

 

 

Still I wondered as well ... even at 4 hours ... it was the middle of the night and the car would allow her to lie down in some privacy ... better than miscarrying in the relative public space of the train ... and to have access to towels and blankets, etc. 

I would guess that a private car in a train would actually be more comfortable than the back of a 1920's era car on roads that hadn't been really developed for long car travel yet. However, that's just my assumption. I'm not overly familiar with train travel in England in the early part of the century, although I have been on trains all over the rest of Europe and for the most part, they're pretty spacious and privacy and even sleeping cars with sinks can be purchased easily.

[renatae]

Yes. All housekeepers and head cooks were known as 'Mrs' regardless of marital status - it was a title that denoted rank and respect.

Thank you! I suspected as much. It's nice to have that cleared up. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

Of course, this being mostly a feel-good show, I have a feeling this will all be resolved by Mary finding out about Marigold and being much nicer about it than everyone expected, finally paving the way for her and Edith to form a better relationship.

 

It's possible.  What I think is more likely is she'd use the info to take nasty swipes behind Edith's back --- to Anna or Rosamund or whoever.  Anyone catch the lovely comment she said to Rosamund about Edith being an editor?  "Even a monkey can type out the bible if left long enough."  Nice, eh?  Typical snotty Mary.  Can't exactly picture them happily shopping together, gushing & skipping along, while holding hands, with matching 'dos, scoping out bargains in flapper dresses & kitten heels.  Hmmmm, just can't picture it.

[tenativelyyours]

Still I wondered as well ... even at 4 hours ... it was the middle of the night and the car would allow her to lie down in some privacy ... better than miscarrying in the relative public space of the train ... and to have access to towels and blankets, etc. 

 

But it would not have been four hours.  It would have been at least twice that with the type of car, the roads etc.  There would have been no room as there would on a first class compartment on the train.  The train would be fast.  Even then there were trains that ran about every hour that had few stops as opposed to the milk/mail trains that stopped at every village along the rails.   And a doctor waiting could know exactly where and how to meet them.  Heck they could pick up Clarkson and take him with them if they so choose in a train..  A car makes no sense in that day and age when rail had reached heights that it really did not surpass in terms of speed and quality until the mid fifties and even then it was more the style of travel

 

And the rail lines, especially back then, also had a much shorter and straighter route.  Roads went right through towns. And went on in a way that included as many little towns between.   And the roads in most places were still made in a way that was horse drawn vehicle friendly in many areas.  Cars were not owned by the average person.  And there was always the threat of coming round a bend and finding a herd of animals or a horse drawn cart still ambling about. 

[CeeBeeGee]

Lovely episode.  Two episodes in a row we get great scenes from Thomas, this time with his conversation with Baxter. He is such an intriguing, infuriating character--in some way a Loki who is, as Baxter says, "his own worst enemy," but capable of self-insight. Time and again he has been the beneficiary of grace--from the Bates, from the family--and he chooses to hold onto that towering sense of resentment and aggrievement. Interesting that when he was railing against Gwen belowstairs, he held himself up as someone who has "given his life to service." A few years ago Thomas would've leapt at the opportunity for a life outside of service. Bates called it correctly--he's pissed that someone else did what he was unable to do. And with all that--he still has a shot. As many have said with his looks and his training he could easily find another house, or a hotel, that would welcome his skills. I truly, truly hope Thomas does not end badly, I want to see him learn from his mistakes.

 

LOVED the Gwen scene. And I'm not at all surprised she didn't immediately identify who she was--that's awkward business, and that's for Gwen to decide to share. I liked seeing Edith call out the awkwardness--"you worked for us for two years and we didn't know your name?" And watching the family react to her story of how Sybil helped her (and I've been rewatching S1 lately, the scene where Sybil deflects Lord G from the library is hilarious) is lovely. What an object lesson is the privilege these people had, and still have, and the difference they can make in people's lives (which Edith pointed out--"we talk about making a difference..."). I loved seeing Mary really learn from this--we see that when she's talking to Anna afterward ("why was I so pettish?").

 

Speaking of which--Mary handled the Potential Anna Miscarriage beautifully. Someone in the thread for the last episode said that Mary was very decisive which could ruffle feathers but which was good for her in business. Boy, did this demonstrate that--I was very impressed with how well Mary kept her head. She told Anna not to panic, she came up with a plan and how to cover it, she lied convincingly, she didn't let butter melt in her mouth. Mary really is a latter-day Scarlett O'Hara.

 

And finally loved the Bates' conversation. Bates's look of realization--"Oh God!"--was just lovely.

[Roseanna]

Can't exactly picture them happily shopping together, gushing & skipping along, while holding hands, with matching 'dos, scoping out bargains in flapper dresses & kitten heels.  Hmmmm, just can't picture it.

 

I don't regard things like that very important although they are of course nice.

 

Instead, I think that even if you aren't very close to some family member or didn't even like her, but if she has a serious problem (her loved one is dead, she has been fired etc.), you simply can't help but to support her, or at least you cease to be mean to her when she is low.

[stopeslite]

That whole "How can Mary not possibly link Henry's hobby to her husband's death" question reminds me of an argument that happened about Torchwood - the main character Gwen had previously played an 1800s character named Gwyneth on Doctor Who, so everyone watching naturally assumed that she was supposed to be a reincarnation of the past character and wasn't that a nice bit of continuity/crossover? But then the writer was genuinely aghast and said not at all, the names Gwen and Gwyneth have nothing to do with each other, and how dare anyone think that because it was so preposterous. And everyone else in the world went "Whuh?" I imagine JF would have the same "Preposterous!" reaction to everyone wondering how Mary isn't a touch concerned about THE WHOLE CAR THING and somehow can't even see how they're connected. Maybe it's a British writer thing.

I don't really mind that the family didn't notice Gwen, especially since she was there when there was still a fairly big contingent of servants. I doubt they ever see most of the staff. Heck, we never even saw most of the staff - when there was the whole to-do about Daisy taking over for one of the scullery maids, I was all "oh, they still have those?"

[lulee]

forget it

Edited January 26, 2016 by lulee

[Roseanna]

I don’t think it was deceptive at all. For one thing, it’s none of the Crawley’s business who she was.  She is now married to a man with whom Rosamund does business.  Gwen had no idea where she was going to for lunch until that morning;  it’s not as though she finagled an invitation on the sly.  I thought Mary was very rude to interrupt Isobel’s conversation not once, but twice.  And Gwen was correct in saying that they had never exactly met.  Below stairs staff is meant to ve invisible.  Both Barrow and Mary were insufferable to her – Mary with snotty statement about Gwen “having every opportunity” to say she’s worked there.

 

Well, she had just that. I don't mind that Gwen didn't say it on her own, but when Mary asked if they had met, she should have told.

 

Mary behaved a little haughty, as is her habit, but that was understandable. The main points was how Thomas's trick once again turned to his discredit and Robert showed sharp eyes and accurate understanding by noticing that Thomas wanted to humiliate Gwen (which Carson would never to the guests) whereas Mary misunderstood Thomas' motives - she even thanked ​him, although it could be due to it that because of Thomas Gwen told of Sybil.

[Haleth]

The scene with Gwen was annoying for me because I felt that she was being deceptive by not immediately identifying herself to the family.

 

Oh, I dunno.  As she expected the reveal made everyone feel very awkward (look at the faces of the more snobbish family members) until she brought up Sybil's role in her leaving DA.  Without that to break the ice it would have been a very quick and quiet lunch with everyone wishing they could get the hell away from this upstart maid.  I don't blame her at all for preferring to keep it quiet.  Thomas is a mean hearted jerk and I'm glad he was called out for it.

I really thought that Mary wanted to hug Anna, when it seemed she was miscarrying, but I guess that wouldn't be proper.

 

So sad.  There are comments about how Mary's only true friend is Anna, but it can't be a true friendship with them on such different social levels.  They may respect and even love each other, but they can't be friends.

And they're getting a little heavy handed with his Lordship's "indigestion".  I think we get it by now.

 

They must be going somewhere with the neverending bickering about the hospital situation.

[Constantinople]

Yeah, I thought Mary's monkey-typing-Bibles comment served to wave Rosamund off, like "let's not make a big deal about it," not that she was insincere about her comment about Edith.

 

I believe Mary was comparing Edith to the monkey.

 

But if Mary meant to say that she's the monkey, it still sounds as if she's backing off the compliment.  The reason it takes the monkey so long to type out the Bible is that the monkey isn't consciously trying to type out the Bible.  The monkey just typed out a random series of characters that eventually happened to have meaning to others, but that that have no meaning to the monkey.  So if Mary is the monkey, it sure sounds as if her compliment was insincere.

[seacliffsal]

I loved this entire episode with the exception of Daisy's actions. She's supposed to be in her mid-to late twenties, right? I find it hard to believe that she would repeat the exact same behaviors with Cora that led to Mr. Mason losing his farm after her outburst to the new owners of whatever estate Mr. Mason had been on. It also seems like some of the staff is getting exhausted just dealing with her. Mrs. Patmore has a smaller kitchen staff but the same responsibilities and yet she has to try to talk sense into Daisy. Mr. Mosely should have known that one can never give an encouragement to her without her blowing it out of proportion. The kindest thing she ever did was marry William before he died, but even then people had to really point out how kind it would have been and that she should do it. I know it seems strange that I support that pressured marriage, but there was never an expectation of living with William. Daisy just drives me crazy-I don't really sympathize with her as maybe the story wants me to, I just am exhausted by her.

[Kohola3]

I believe Mary was comparing Edith to the monkey.

 

Me, too, especially when accompanied by the face she made after saying it.

[guilfoyleatpp]

I thought that Mary was referring to herself as the monkey. It honestly didn't occur to me that she might be referring to Edith as the monkey until I read this, but I'm a glass half full type of girl (even though my older sister and I had a bit of a Mary/Edith relationship, but with that in mind, she was capable of kindness when she wasn't making it clear how mortifying it was to be related to me. We grew out of it, but it still smarts).

 

I also noticed that Gwen had started to explain with the "not met, exactly" when someone else jumped in with a comment that derailed that line of conversation. Was it Isobel? Not sure and don't have access to my dvr right now.

 

I thought Mary was also giving Thomas a sly slap when she thanked him for telling them about Gwen. I thought that the look on her face and her tone acknowledged that he was being a dick, but that it turned out for the good.

[SusanSunflower]

 

I believe Mary was comparing Edith to the monkey.

because Fellowes is such a wonderful writer and gives us all this gristle and confusion to discuss endlessly without resolution ... 

I realized that Daisy and Mr. Mason is a retread/rerun of Mrs. Patmore getting her brother on the war memorial ... which might explain why Daisy thinks that ear-splitting whining might be effective and badgering Cora might work ... even though Mrs. Patmore and everyone downstairs should have taught Daisy better manners. because: No one every actually manages to get themselves fired at Downton EVER ... blerg. 

 

In anything like real-life Daisy would be near her last warning wrt going-off about Mr. Mason, even downstairs, where every single person would be shushing her ... if only to avoid Carson or Mrs. Hughes ovehearing and getting a scolding, Mrs. Patmore first and foremost. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[craziness]

Loved the Gwen scenes, but am surprised no one has commented that Thomas did not appear to recognize Gwen until Anna came up and said hi. What was Anna doing up in the front hall then?

Regarding Carson's trip to his room to make sure nothing was missed, I thought that was very sad. Does he have so little stuff, that he doesn't open a drawer or closet to actually check for missing items?

I believe the Carsons are living in a cottage near the Bates, because their b&b isn't ready and is too far (Molesley's joke about Carson and car). And since someone upthread asked, Carson wouldn't answer the door in the middle of the night, that is a hallboy's job (probably even sleeping in the hall, just in case).

Mary's monkey comment was in reference to herself doing something improbable.

Henry Talbot must not have had a good governess, since he slouched against the back of the chair at dinner with Mary. I wondered how they convinced Allister Bruce (the historic guru) to allow this etiquette slight (in one of the behind the scenes shows, he said that some governess would put knives along the back of chairs so kids couldn't lean back, that the back of chairs was only a hand hold for the footmen). On a side note, I'm a big Matthew Goode fan, so happy to see him for the next couple weeks (I hope/assume, not spoiled so not definite).

I had a thought when Anna mentioned the new maids who were not living in. I thought maybe they were lesbians? Not that I think Fellows would acknowledge that, but I think it would be an interesting way to go, since Thomas is so closeted, that maids could be kind of "out".

I'm sure I had other comments, but will have to add them separately when I remember them.

Edited January 26, 2016 by craziness

[jschoolgirl]

I can't find the OP to quote it, but Bates said "For once, I agree with you" to Thomas, not Baxter.

The servants were speculating on what was up with Willis-Baxter-Molesley, and Thomas told the servants that it was Baxter and Molesley's own business.

[lulee]

I maintain that Mary was framing herself as the monkey given that Rosamund was questioning what *Mary* had just done, and thus Mary answered with herself as the subject of her sentence -- and she was the "writer" of the compliment to Edith just as the monkey is the writer in the analogy. And Mary meant what she said to Edith sincerely - the parallel of her comment is to the Bible, after all, not dime store pulp fiction or whatever.

But this is not to say that Mary has turned over a new lead toward Edith. On the contrary, she indicates that complimenting Edith is not easy for her and her comment to Rosamund acknowledges that kindness toward Edith is extremely rare. It was a baby step off kindness from Mary and one that came with no guarantee of repetition.

Edited January 26, 2016 by lulee

[Artymouse]

The kindest thing she ever did was marry William before he died, but even then people had to really point out how kind it would have been and that she should do it. I know it seems strange that I support that pressured marriage, but there was never an expectation of living with William. Daisy just drives me crazy-I don't really sympathize with her as maybe the story wants me to, I just am exhausted by her.

 

Daisy always irked me in that whole storyline. She sulked and pouted and whined and behaved like a bratty kid. Thankfully, Mr. Mason's love and support helped her come around to the idea that it was a good thing. But it rang a little false that she used William's death as a way to get Tom to guilt-trip the Crawleys into giving Yew Tree to Mr. Mason. 

 

I think the actress does a great job as Daisy, but I like Daisy the character less with each episode.

[Andorra]

 

Henry Talbot must not have had a good governess, since he slouched against the back of the chair at dinner with Mary. I wondered how they convinced Allister Bruce (the historic guru) to allow this etiquette slight (in one of the behind the scenes shows, he said that some governess would put knives along the back of chairs so kids couldn't lean back, that the back of chairs was only a hand hold for the footmen).

 

Actually Allister Bruce complained about it in an interview I've read. He said he had to constantly remind him not to slouch. He said it politely of course, but it was clear he was a bit annoyed by it or at least found it tiresome. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I didn't quite care for Anna's comment about "at least it's not us" who the policeman was here for, since she knew it was Baxter he'd come to see. Since Baxter, along with Moseley, was crucial to Anna getting out of her legal troubles, it rubbed me the wrong way. I wouldn't have minded had the policeman been there for someone other than Baxter or Moseley, but this just made Anna look ungrateful and self-centered.

I thought it was an extremely rude comment. Baxter is pretty much an angel and has been nothing but kind towards literally everyone. Anna's comment was in bad-taste.

I've basically disliked Daisy since she was part of the odious downstairs love-quadrangle. I've loathed Daisy since Miss Bunting wormed her way into her brain. That's when she went full-on spoiled brat. Yeah, she wanted more and to better herself, but it came off as whiney and spoiled and bratty.

Edited January 26, 2016 by HoodlumSheep