S06.E02: Season 6, Episode 2

[jaytee1812]

I watched the first two episodes of season one the other day and the Mary/Edith sniping felt a lot more equal than it does now. I think because it feels like Fellowes likes Mary and likes good things for her (he only killed off Matthew because Dan Stevens wanted to leave), whereas Edith gets the shitty end of the stick.

[MakeMeLaugh]

I'm confused. Isn't this discussion supposed to be about the most recent episode?

I, too, cannot work up a lather over the hospital thing. Seems like just a reason for Violet and Isobel to argue and that's falling pretty flat.

No kidding re episode discussion. That's how we know it was a boooring episode, when events going back to the first season are being batted around instead of this episode's.

I wonder re hospital if the storyline is just a big sledgehammer history lesson/commentary about the origins of the National Health System in the UK. Snoozefest lesson, too.

[Avaleigh]

It is disappointing that Edith having the magazine hasn't done more for her confidence. It doesn't seem to have added much to her happiness either. It's a nuisance for her to have to run down to London and deal with this guy head on. I thought the glimpse that we got of Edith when Cora and Rosamund went to visit her that time Edith ran away was a hint that Edith might have found her niche, but so far the magazine hasn't done much for her since Gregson's death. (Does she still do her column?) The waffling Edith does over whether or not she wants to live in London more or less full time is further proof to me that Edith basically has a life at Downton that is 'happy enough'. Yes, she's still looking for love but that would be the case if she were living in London only she'd likely have more opportunities to be social. 

 

I, too, cannot work up a lather over the hospital thing.  Seems like just a reason for Violet and Isobel to argue and that's falling pretty flat.

I think the reason the hospital storyline isn't super exciting is because to me it's so obvious that Isobel is on the right side. I like it when I can see both of their points and I like it when they occasionally team up. I like the snarking too, don't get me wrong, but I'd prefer a storyline other than this hospital disagreement. I like it when they have conversations that reveal bits of their characters and I'd like to see more of that.

 

I must confess that I can't understand that kind of behavior.

 

First, Gregson had made his success himself and I find that kind of man much more worthy than Crawleys who had inherited the title and estate. And after Tom married Sybil and they had got to know him, they should have learned that one must value a man according to his character and merits, not his rank. Second, Gregson had given Edith a chance to begin a career of her own, so the family should have grateful to him. Third, even if he was "only" Edith's friend and she spent a lot of time with him, a normal family would have invited him with pleasure in order to get to know him.

I can understand Mary being wary of Gregson possibly being a Carlisle type. She didn't know him yet and was suspicious. Obviously I agree that she should have given him a chance to as Matthew advised her. When Matthew told Gregson to break it off with Edith because of his marital status, I think that's when Edith decided that it would be better to downplay the relationship until Gregson was divorced. I don't think the family ever got to a place where he felt close and the comments of Rosamund and others seem to confirm this.

 

I don't think the issue is about Gregson not being a hardworking self made man. The Crawleys were guests of the MacClares so it wasn't really up to them to invite Gregson to Duneagle. Cora for her part, did express her thanks to Gregson and told him that she never misses Edith's column. 

[JudyObscure]

Yet, note that all Mary's loyalty and kindness is toward those much lower than her in the social scale.
 

 

It's interesting that that is considered a bad thing here.  When I dated, I paid particular attention to how my date treated wait staff, car attendants, ushers, etc.  I always believed someone's true character can be revealed in how they treat someone who might be perceived to be in a subordinate role in a given situation.

 

I don't  consider it a bad thing,.  It's the "all" or the implied "only," that I considered a bad thing. A truly kind person is kind to everyone, not just those she feels superior to in rank.

[Roseanna]

But Mary doesn't know how Mrs. Hughes feels.  Mary is very close to Carson, he has been at the house all of her life.  She is appalled that her father would offer their head butler to have the wedding in the dungeon, and makes what seems to me to be a very generous offer to have the wedding in the Great Hall.  She is not a mindreader, she can't be expected to know how strongly Mrs. Hughes feels about it when no one has really told her.  I don't think it's her job to find out.  I think it is up to Carson to explain it to her.  The problem is that I think Carson secretly would love nothing more than to be married in the great house in which he has spent so many years.  He has spent his life as a servant, making the rich folk comfortable, and for one day at least, it will be all about him.  I fully understand why he feels like that.  I think Mary feels like Carson is too embarrassed and that's why he wanted to decline out of graciousness, but there she was saying that he is like family, and will be treated with honor.

 

I think most adults have learned to read "signs". A family member or friend can say that she doesn't want birthday-party but you know that she doesn't actually mean it and would be very cross if taken seriously whereas another person means just what he means.

 

However, Mary has had no need to learn that ability, because the servants had always done what she wants and she has been been flattered by Carson and even somewhat by Anna.

 

It would never enter her head that íf she wants to be kind to servants, it wouldn't be regarded as kindness but bossing by Mrs Hughes. 

[Andorra]

I don't  consider it a bad thing,.  It's the "all" or the implied "only," that I considered a bad thing. A truly kind person is kind to everyone, not just those she feels superior to in rank.

 

And you see this in Edith? Where?

[helenamonster]

Re Edith: Whenever I get really angry at Edith, I remind myself that Edith is Fellowe's creation. She is only playing what he writes for her, and he has written her a wretched role, from the beginning - wretched.

 

But that's kind of how fiction works, isn't it? If a character is written as wretched, doesn't that inherently make them wretched? Trust me, I wish Edith had been given a lot of other storylines besides this Marigold nonsense but she hasn't and her character is whatever Fellowes writes her to be.

 

(Is Rosamund a widow? Does she have a child(ren) that we've never met? Does she live in Grantham House or a place of her own. I always forget. Would be interesting to know more about her youth.)

 

Rosamund is a widow, yes, but she doesn't have any children. I think she was supposed to originally but they were never written in and I guess there just wasn't any use for them. She has her own place in London, Grantham house is where the Crawleys stay when they're up there for an extended period of time, like the season.

 

You can't take the laughter out of manslaughter.

 

Petition for a spinoff series where Mary and Anna help people hide bodies and then go and laugh about it over a drink.

 

I have always thought that something would come of that relationship.  Don't we know that Rosamund was in the same situation as Edith at one time and that's how she knew what to do?  Just going out on a limb here.........Rosamund/Carson illicit affair and then Mary needs a home and taken it by Lord Granthem??????

 

It would make for a good story line and shut the Mary up right quick.  Her son would still be the "actual" heir since the lineage is with Rosamund.

 

Manor of Speaking site.

 

There has never been anything explicit or implicit leading to the conclusion that Rosamund was ever pregnant out of wedlock or has a lovechild running around somewhere. A lot of us speculated during S4 that Edith might be Rosamund's due to their similar appearances and close relationship, but nothing ever came of it and I think that Edith being Robert and Cora's second child will forever remain canon.

 

I don't know where the assumption came that Mrs. Drewe was neglecting her other children for Marigold but I don't think there's been anything onscreen to really prove that. Her biological children were older and didn't/don't need the constant supervision that a toddler like Marigold would. But we saw her taking the one boy to the dentist, and there was another scene where Edith was following her and she was leaving somewhere with all of the children. Leaving her children with a neighbor while going to the fat stock show doesn't demonstrate neglect to me, just that it was very busy and she probably worried about not being able to keep an eye on all three of them in such a big crowd.

 

I don't think the Mary/Edith relationship resonates with me in the same way that it does with others, as I am of the belief that the feelings about one don't necessarily have to be tied to feelings about the other, especially since a majority of their storylines since S1 have had really nothing to do with the other and most of the interactions they've had are just them sniping. All I know is their weird-ass rivalry makes me more thankful than ever that I was an only child and didn't get stepsiblings until I was an adult.

 

One really quick moment that I found interesting was the scene at breakfast towards the beginning where Mary was wearing that fabulous sweater and she got the letter from Rose and wondered if she might be pregnant based on vary vague information, and Edith made a comment along the lines of "you put 2 and 2 together and get 53." I think Edith finds it amusing that Mary assumes Rose is pregnant based on so little information while so many things point to Marigold being Edith's and Mary doesn't have the faintest clue. Idk, I just thought it was funny.

[JudyObscure]

Andorra:

JudyObscure, on 12 Jan 2016 - 2:15 PM, said:

 

I don't  consider it a bad thing,.  It's the "all" or the implied "only," that I considered a bad thing. A truly kind person is kind to everyone, not just those she feels superior to in rank.

 

[And you see this in Edith? Where?

That wasn't a comparison with Edith, it was in response to someone who thought, I thought that being kind to servants was "a bad thing." Edited January 12, 2016 by JudyObscure

[Andorra]

I think most adults have learned to read "signs". A family member or friend can say that she doesn't want birthday-party but you know that she doesn't actually mean it and would be very cross if taken seriously whereas another person means just what he means.

 

However, Mary has had no need to learn that ability, because the servants had always done what she wants and she has been been flattered by Carson and even somewhat by Anna.

 

It would never enter her head that íf she wants to be kind to servants, it wouldn't be regarded as kindness but bossing by Mrs Hughes. 

 

I think you're expecting a little too much here. Carson tells Mary Mrs Hughes is too modest to accept the great hall as a place to have their reception and Mary is supposed to read this as "she doesn't want it"? I think it actually speaks for Mary that she says she will convince Mrs Hughes that it is in no way too generous. Keep in mind Mary doesn't know Mrs Hughes as well as she knows Carson. She knows her by name, but she has very little interaction with her.

 

Also someone said that Edith only hasn't a good relationship with someone from the servants, because she has no personal maid. Mary didn't have Anna alone for her when she wasn't married yet. Anna dressed all three girls and still she became friends with Mary. Sybil didn't have a personal maid either and she became friends with Gwen and Tom. Edith even had driving lessons with Tom, but it wouldn't have occured to her to befriend a chauffeur. Thomas saved her from the fire, but did she thank him? 

[SusanSunflower]

I think the hospital story line is this season's championship rose analog ... times are changin' and the manor supported (and managed) local hospital is no longer the hallowed traditional symbol of the benevolent aristocracy's good-works -- and could even, by it antiquated ways, hinder the progress of local local health care -- much as an aged but beloved local doctor (who hasn't learned a "new trick" in 20-30 years) can become a liability rather than an asset.  It was "time" for Violet to let someone else win the rose contest ... it may now be time for the "family's hospital" to close its doors (now that automobile make traveling to a more regional facility practical) ... I'm not sure how it will end up or what part Cora may play ... she would be the obvious next generation family representative on the board of directors (to be followed in turn by Mary) ... 

[CeeBeeGee]

But Mary doesn't know how Mrs. Hughes feels.  Mary is very close to Carson, he has been at the house all of her life.  She is appalled that her father would offer their head butler to have the wedding in the dungeon, and makes what seems to me to be a very generous offer to have the wedding in the Great Hall.  She is not a mindreader, she can't be expected to know how strongly Mrs. Hughes feels about it when no one has really told her.  I don't think it's her job to find out.  I think it is up to Carson to explain it to her.  The problem is that I think Carson secretly would love nothing more than to be married in the great house in which he has spent so many years.  He has spent his life as a servant, making the rich folk comfortable, and for one day at least, it will be all about him.  I fully understand why he feels like that.  I think Mary feels like Carson is too embarrassed and that's why he wanted to decline out of graciousness, but there she was saying that he is like family, and will be treated with honor.

 

Regarding the whole constant Edith/Mary kerfluflle... I blame Edith for most of it.  Even at breakfast, when Mary was talking about being the estate agent, didn't Edith make a snip at her?  Edith never resists the opportunity to put Mary down, and vice versa.  I think back to when Sybil died, and Mary told Edith that they only had each other, and could they be kind to each other, and I think the conclusion was probably not, but they would try. 

 

IIRC it was actually Edith who reached to Mary after Sybil's death. and Mary was the one who said probably not.

[SusanSunflower]

Mary remains the "golden child" and Edith's second-place "also-ran" status is constantly evident ... even now as columnist, magazine owner, mother, etc. Yes, it may have been petty (or not) for Edith to question just how much actual work was involved in Mary's position as estate manager ... (particularly given Robert's apparent utter incompetence at managing Downton, his ringing endorsement of Mary, seriously.  Worrying about Mary's ability to lift heavy things?  Really?  As if she didn't have "lackies" to do that ...  Have we seen any updates on the ambitious new tenant housing Matthew and Tom began, that I would assume Mary is now "overseeing" to some degree? 

Edited January 12, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Crs97]

I agree with the poster who speculated that Carson really wants his reception at Downton, which is why everyone is getting mixed signals. While Mrs. Hughes is right about Carson's relationship with Mary, I think she is wrong that Mary is the only reason he is struggling to say no.

[proserpina65]

But Mary doesn't know how Mrs. Hughes feels.  Mary is very close to Carson, he has been at the house all of her life.  She is appalled that her father would offer their head butler to have the wedding in the dungeon, and makes what seems to me to be a very generous offer to have the wedding in the Great Hall.  She is not a mindreader, she can't be expected to know how strongly Mrs. Hughes feels about it when no one has really told her.  I don't think it's her job to find out.  I think it is up to Carson to explain it to her.  The problem is that I think Carson secretly would love nothing more than to be married in the great house in which he has spent so many years.  He has spent his life as a servant, making the rich folk comfortable, and for one day at least, it will be all about him.  I fully understand why he feels like that.  I think Mary feels like Carson is too embarrassed and that's why he wanted to decline out of graciousness, but there she was saying that he is like family, and will be treated with honor.

I agree, which is why I said that if Mary knew the real reason for Mrs. Hughes' refusal, she might back down.  But she might not.  Without seeing that scene (or some aftermath of it), we can't really know.  But I do place the blame at Carson's feet; he should've been honest about the refusal, and, like you, I susspect he wasn't because he actually wants to be married at Downton.  Personally, I hope Mrs. Hughes wins this battle, because it'd be the last one.

[lucindabelle]

Mary and Edith don't understand one another. It's just that simple.

Mary didn't especially get a new haircut to thwart Edith-- she wanted to look glamorous for the two beaux she no longer had.

Edith's grief prevented her from seeing that but I understand it-- shortly after my father died I was at a play which I didn't realize was an opening night party. I couldn't bear the small talk and excused myself.

Neither can relate to each other in the slightest.

[TheGreenKnight]

Also someone said that Edith only hasn't a good relationship with someone from the servants, because she has no personal maid. Mary didn't have Anna alone for her when she wasn't married yet. Anna dressed all three girls and still she became friends with Mary. Sybil didn't have a personal maid either and she became friends with Gwen and Tom. Edith even had driving lessons with Tom, but it wouldn't have occured to her to befriend a chauffeur. Thomas saved her from the fire, but did she thank him? 

You're right about Anna taking care of all three girls. It's worth pointing out that Sybil also had little to no relationship with Anna, but that definitely doesn't mean Mary is kinder or nicer to those below her than Sybil. Sybil reached out to Gwen to help her after her interest in being secretary was discussed at dinner; she didn't contact Gwen before this or to be "friends," although they did end up being friendly. It goes without saying that Sybil would more likely assist someone below her that she didn't know personally than Mary or Edith. Somehow I think it would be seen as inappropriate for Edith to be very close to a male servant like Tom or Thomas (although she was perfectly open and nice to Tom when he joined the family). I mean, Sybil became close to Tom--outside of the family's knowledge, except for Mary seeing them talking once, I believe--because their similar positions politically and they ended up romantically involved. Which kind of proves the point.

 

I thought Carson was pretty clear about Mrs. Hughes not wanting to be married at the Abbey when he talked to Mary and the family. Even Cora tried to talk Mary down, but Mary forced the topic. I think Mary is thinking about how much she'd like to see Carson get married under her roof, and not thinking about Mrs. Hughes at all.

[proserpina65]

I thought Carson was pretty clear about Mrs. Hughes not wanting to be married at the Abbey when he talked to Mary and the family. Even Cora tried to talk Mary down, but Mary forced the topic. I think Mary is thinking about how much she'd like to see Carson get married under her roof, and not thinking about Mrs. Hughes at all.

 

It was the 'why' that Carson wasn't clear about.  He left Mary with the impression that Mrs. Hughes thought it wouldn't be their place to get married at Downton, which isn't at all correct.

[Roseanna]

Mary and Edith don't understand one another. It's just that simple.

 

I think that Edith undertands some sides of Mary. She understood and also sympathized Mary's grief when Matthew was MIA. Edith was also quite right when she said in CS that Mary can't stand that others are moving on and she doesn't. Instead, Mary sees Edith as the same as she was before the war, not noticing any changes. A typical comment was that she can't understand what Gregson saw in Edith.

 

The difference is due that Edith is interested in Mary and observes her, but Mary isn't interested in Edith and don't even see her. Despite this Edith is necessary to Mary for she can reflect on her sister all the sides she rejects in herself.  

[RedHawk]

Why does Anna refer to her husband as Mr. Bates even when they are alone?

 

According to my mom, my grandmother, who got married around 1915, always called my grandfather Mr. Lastname. So maybe it was the era.

Over on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills forum we've chatted about why Lisa Rhinna calls her husband "Harry Hamlin" whenever she speaks of him, using both names. And a couple of times I think she's called him that when speaking to him. "Thank you for the beautiful gift, Harry Hamlin". My impression has been that she both likes the sound of it and thinks it's cute and fun. 

I can imagine Anna saying "Mr. Bates" even after they are married is a combination of the era, that when they met and worked together he was always "Mr. Bates" to her, and that now they're married she thinks it's sweet and romantic. Remember that when she was smitten she saw him as a something of a classy older man, so I think that factored in, too.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RedHawk

[Clanstarling]

But Mary doesn't know how Mrs. Hughes feels.  Mary is very close to Carson, he has been at the house all of her life.  She is appalled that her father would offer their head butler to have the wedding in the dungeon, and makes what seems to me to be a very generous offer to have the wedding in the Great Hall.  She is not a mindreader, she can't be expected to know how strongly Mrs. Hughes feels about it when no one has really told her.  I don't think it's her job to find out.  I think it is up to Carson to explain it to her.  The problem is that I think Carson secretly would love nothing more than to be married in the great house in which he has spent so many years.  He has spent his life as a servant, making the rich folk comfortable, and for one day at least, it will be all about him.  I fully understand why he feels like that.  I think Mary feels like Carson is too embarrassed and that's why he wanted to decline out of graciousness, but there she was saying that he is like family, and will be treated with honor.

I have never been a Mary fan, but I agree with this. Carson is the author of any misunderstanding regarding where to have the wedding. He knows full well what Mrs. Hughes wants - she has been very explicit and clear. He comes up with some lock tugging, we poor servants aren't worthy story rather than be honest, and of course Mary gets insistent about her offer.

 

There's plenty to criticize her for, and I've never understood the Mary love, but I don't really think she is the culprit here.

[kassa]

But Mary doesn't know how Mrs. Hughes feels.  Mary is very close to Carson, he has been at the house all of her life.  She is appalled that her father would offer their head butler to have the wedding in the dungeon, and makes what seems to me to be a very generous offer to have the wedding in the Great Hall.  She is not a mindreader, she can't be expected to know how strongly Mrs. Hughes feels about it when no one has really told her.

 

 

Cora picked up on it (how, I don't know - she hasn't ever picked up on much).  At least twice she tried to slow the Lady Mary Express train down by intimating that Mrs. Hughes might have a thing or to to say about the planning.

[RedHawk]

I'm not a moderator, but I'd like to remind everyone that there exists a handy "Mary and Edith, Edith and Mary" thread that was made some time ago. Ongoing discussion of the history of their relationship should go there, please.

 

There's even a thread to discuss that Letter to the Turkish Embassy.

 

I also wish there was a "Poor Mrs. Drewe, Oh No, Poor Edith" thread. A girl can dream...

[lucindabelle]

LOL yeah, the whole Mrs. Drewe vs. Edith was done last year. And as I'm binge-watching I just saw the episode where Mrs. Drewe, after tearing up the birth certificate, said goodbye to seemingly doped-up marigold and said "this nice lady will be your new mummy" etc., in other words, taking the high road.

And then the very next episode she went off to tell Cora. I blame the writing.

 

Maybe I'm the only one who didn't hate this episode. I even found myself interested in the hospital battle. I don't understand Isobel's coolness to Dickie when she said just a few months ago the only thing barring her from marrying him is his bratty sons. She's edging up to rude. Maybe she feels she has to be to keep him from trying, but his wooing speech was so tender I dont' understand how she can bear to just forget it. I mean, i couldn't. Hell I'd marry him myself and he's much too old for me!

 

LOVE the clothes.

[Roseanna]

Even Cora tried to talk Mary down, but Mary forced the topic.

 

Yes, but Mary is now so cocksure that she believes that she always knows best. That can be dangerous in a position like Mary's: she can have an honest opinion only from her family.

[kassa]

I just saw the episode where Mrs. Drewe, after tearing up the birth certificate, said goodbye to seemingly doped-up marigold and said "this nice lady will be your new mummy" etc., in other words, taking the high road.

And then the very next episode she went off to tell Cora. I blame the writing.

 

 

That didn't rattle me.  I might pull myself together in the moment to not traumatize a child who's about to be handed over to the woman who has just destroyed my world, whether I like it or not.  And then then next day decide to burn that stranger's reputation down by telling her mom her dark secret.

[Avaleigh]

LOL yeah, the whole Mrs. Drewe vs. Edith was done last year. And as I'm binge-watching I just saw the episode where Mrs. Drewe, after tearing up the birth certificate, said goodbye to seemingly doped-up marigold and said "this nice lady will be your new mummy" etc., in other words, taking the high road.

And then the very next episode she went off to tell Cora. I blame the writing.

 

Maybe I'm the only one who didn't hate this episode. I even found myself interested in the hospital battle. I don't understand Isobel's coolness to Dickie when she said just a few months ago the only thing barring her from marrying him is his bratty sons. She's edging up to rude. Maybe she feels she has to be to keep him from trying, but his wooing speech was so tender I dont' understand how she can bear to just forget it. I mean, i couldn't. Hell I'd marry him myself and he's much too old for me!

 

LOVE the clothes.

Dickie is in the category of Sybil, William, and Anna where they're so nice to the point of practically being saint like. I agree that Isobel is a little rude but I think it's because she knows that an ounce of encouragement would likely start things up again.

 

The clothes and locations are half of the reason I watch this show.

 

Over on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills forum we've chatted about why Lisa Rhinna calls her husband "Harry Hamlin" whenever she speaks of him, using both names. And a couple of times I think she's called him that when speaking to him. "Thank you for the beautiful gift, Harry Hamlin". My impression has been that she both likes the sound of it and thinks it's cute and fun. 

I can imagine Anna saying "Mr. Bates" even after they are married is a combination of the era, that when they met and worked together he was always "Mr. Bates" to her, and that now they're married she thinks it's sweet and romantic. Remember that when she was smitten she saw him as a something of a classy older man, so I think that factored in, too.

 

I think this is it exactly. I'll add that downstairs adding the Mr. is a sign of rank so it's sweetly respectful. Footmen are addressed by their first names by downstairs staff but valets, underbutlers, butlers are Mr. Last Name by downstairs staff. (Those same servants are only addressed by their last name by the upstairs crowd.)

[lucindabelle]

That didn't rattle me.  I might pull myself together in the moment to not traumatize a child who's about to be handed over to the woman who has just destroyed my world, whether I like it or not.  And then then next day decide to burn that stranger's reputation down by telling her mom her dark secret.

But Mr. Drewe also promised Edith she wouldn't do exactly what she did-- IN HIS WIFE'S PRESENCE.

I get that she feels he made a fool of her, but she made a liar out of him the very next day.

I think she's written inconsistently. I also think that scene should have been the end of it, but noooo..... this whole season so far feels repetitive. But I'm enjoying anyway.

[RedHawk]

One period detail I thought they got right happened just after Mrs. Baxter spoke to Cora about perhaps saying a word to help Mr. Mason keep his farm. When Robert enters he asks what they were discussing and Cora tells him, then says gently, "I don't think there's anything I can do." Robert then says a quick, firm, decisive, and somewhat dismissive "No." After keeping Daisy on despite her outburst, I think most Earls would have had enough of it by that point, and think it was time to let Mason and Daisy deal with their own problems.

 

I don't get the thing with Thomas and New Footman who seems so dull I keep forgetting his name. Oh, looked it up, Andrew. Anyway, perhaps Thomas simply wants to make a male friend among the staff? Someone he didn't have a history with who might not judge him on all the bad behavior he's been caught in in the past. In London he proved to be Andrew's friend, and I don't actually see his efforts with Andrew to be flirty or showing sexual interest. Why does all the staff have to see it that way, almost as if Thomas is a predator, when they know that he and Jimmy became friends? It really bugs me because it wanders close to stereotyping. Thomas is gay so he's interested in screwing any new single man in the house. 

As for the interview with the rude butler, I think Thomas did ping his gaydar (to use the modern phrase) and he reacted to that. He may also have felt that, in addition to being too handsome and "soft" to be straight, Thomas coming from a larger estate belonging to an Earl might act too high and mighty if he got the job and thus not fit in well with the existing staff. 
 

Rather too late, but I'd appreciate it greatly if Thomas' character were written consistently. I liked Mrs. Baxter saying, "Why won't you let me be fond of you?" She has an old connection to him and proved to him that she genuinely cares, yet he still rebuffs her. It would seem that the scenes where she insisted he go to the doctor would set up a better relationship between them, but no, we're given this nasty Thomas who can't be trusted not to molest Andrew in a dark corner, oh but isn't he lovely with the Earl's grandchildren?

Edited January 12, 2016 by RedHawk

[lucindabelle]

I SO agree about the inconsistency of Thomas. It must drive the actor crazy.

One minute, the Bateses are responsible for his not starving. The next, he's getting Anna in trouble by blaming Edna's ironing mistake on her.

Huh?

Right after Baxter was kind to him, he did show appreciation.

But it's as if Fellowes just forgot. Ugh. Doesn't he watch the show?

[ShadowFacts]

Thomas in this episode was treated either dismissively or outright rudely by several people, all uncalled for.  It feels like piling on.  You would think Andrew would be a little more cordial since Thomas did bail him out of a jam in London, but no, he avoids him like the plague.  Is Andrew so afraid of any possible attention from a gay man?  Maybe.  But Carson and the other butler were even nastier.  I do see why Thomas maybe holds himself at a distance from people like Baxter, something in the nature of not fully accepting who he is, and wondering why anyone else would.  But the others treating him the way they do just feeds into that and it makes me sad. 

[Misstify]

The most frustrating thing in the episode for me (besides the realization that there was going to be more Drewe Drama) was how insistent Anna was that she could not have children and that it was set in stone. I realize she probably didn't want to suffer false hope, but the stone wall of, "Nope. Won't work. That won't work either. Not gonna happen." was maddening.

We learned in her doctor's visit that 12 weeks is the point where she will get a cervical stitch. So presumably she has gone past that point in the incidents, which we now perceive to be lost pregnancies. (Which makes me a bit confused about her earlier comment that it has happened "Two, maybe three" times. Was the "maybe" case not as late as the others?). Anyway, I think bed rest would be required with that cervical problem. Please, please don't make this a thing where Anna wants to hide the fact that she's pregnant in order to spare Mr. Bates from false hope and also has to make up some excuse for staying in bed, which leads to further misunderstandings!

Mary's underclothes were more fabulous than any garment I've ever owned.

ETA: I forgot to mention Cora's mysterious "idea" about what to do about Mr. Mason. This was before the Mrs. Drewe meltdown, so what was Cora thinking?

Edited January 12, 2016 by Misstify

[Constantinople]

I wonder re hospital if the storyline is just a big sledgehammer history lesson/commentary about the origins of the National Health System in the UK. Snoozefest lesson, too.

I just assumed it was yet another example of Fellowes recycling story lines since Violet & Isobel argued over the hospital back in Season 1, and Isobel clashed with Cora over running DA as a convalescent home during WWI.

The pig competition reminded me of the flower competition in Season 1, and Mary is taking Anna to see the same doctor that Mary saw in Season 3.

[stillshimpy]

Maybe I'm the only one who didn't hate this episode. I even found myself interested in the hospital battle. I don't understand Isobel's coolness to Dickie when she said just a few months ago the only thing barring her from marrying him is his bratty sons. She's edging up to rude. Maybe she feels she has to be to keep him from trying, but his wooing speech was so tender I dont' understand how she can bear to just forget it. I mean, i couldn't. Hell I'd marry him myself and he's much too old for me

 

Outside of finding the hospital storyline a bit of a snooze, I liked the episode and agree with others that the clothes were gorgeous.  I actually liked Edith's story also.  

 

I will admit, I could do without Daisy's story, but that's primarily because it also feels a very surface treatment of otherwise interesting subjects.  Social inequity, Daisy actually trying to correct a mistake sounds like it would be good in theory, but there isn't a lot of depth to it.  Cora's decency towards her staff (something I've always appreciated about her) .  Although, I really wanted to set up a drinking game revolving around "Every time Daisy's studies get mentioned, drink!"  Every time I can spot a bad wig line (Mrs Hughes! Anna, oh my god almighty, Anna) drink! 

 

If Mary had really been a friend to Anna, she'd have nipped into the nearest hairdresser and done something about the 'do.  I kid, I kid.  Well, not about the frightmare that is Anna's wig, about Mary being a friend to Anna, she is.  

 

Also, I'm sorry, but I actually didn't have a problem with the whole "carrying Mr. Pamuk's body downstairs in the middle of the night" giggle.  No offense, but it's not like they killed the guy and whereas it wasn't funny at the time, I can see looking back at the "Oh jeez, yeah, that....remember that? *laugh*"  and really, it was a good example of the "no, seriously, I owe you"...but there's almost no reason to speak of that guy in reverent or somber tones.  Sorry his spot of gatecrashing jackassery didn't work out better for his longevity and all that, but it's been over a decade.   I think it's okay to laugh about a harrowing evening more than ten years after the fact.  It's not like they dropped the guy's body down a flight of stairs or desecrated his corpse.  It was just "No, seriously....I owe you" and they both laughed because...yup, that's undeniable. 

 

However, I didn't find myself overly engaged by the hospital plot.  

 

Thomas's "must find other employment" job search was simply an odd story.  Thomas's character has long been all over the map, so usually I'm waiting to see which version of Thomas will be featured.  I ended up instantly disliking the Butler he was interviewing with and that was before the guy started being a jackass.  

Edited January 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Crs97]

ETA: I forgot to mention Cora's mysterious "idea" about what to do about Mr. Mason. This was before the Mrs. Drewe meltdown, so what was Cora thinking?

I think Cora was already packing their moving boxes and getting the Drewes off the farm. Their usefulness was at an end.

Maybe I just never noticed before, but Thomas is vampire pale. Is he even allowed out during the day?

[MakeMeLaugh]

....

Mary's underclothes were more fabulous than any garment I've ever owned.

...

 

Seriously, they were the most impressive thing about this episode. I so want them.

[Constantinople]

I'm not a moderator, but I'd like to remind everyone that there exists a handy "Mary and Edith, Edith and Mary" thread that was made some time ago. Ongoing discussion of the history of their relationship should go there, please.

It's not that handy for US viewers who wish to remain spoiler free.

[guilfoyleatpp]

ETA: I forgot to mention Cora's mysterious "idea" about what to do about Mr. Mason. This was before the Mrs. Drewe meltdown, so what was Cora thinking?

This was after the children had been to the pig farm and she was alarmed by Mrs. Drewe's reaction to Marigold. Lord G said he'd speak to Mr. Drewe.

 

And in no universe, fictional or real, is it ok to take someone's child without telling them where. Just nope. Legal fine points aside, it's a completely shitty, alarming, and entitled thing to do no matter who is the parent or what relationship you've had in the past. I supposed you could imagine up a scenario where the child is being abused or neglected (as Mrs. Drewe did), but in practice, it's something that someone who does not think of consequences does. And someone who cannot consider consequences of enormous actions is not someone who should be caring for a child.

 

So Mrs. Drewe has made herself a danger. And ruined her husband's job. I was glad he wasn't angry with her as she so clearly had some sort of break with reality, but her actions were in no way justified.

These ideas do not mean that I find Edith's behavior less despicable. She used Mrs. Drewe very poorly and selfishly. And although she was spared the grief of the Swiss family when she removed Marigold from their care, she was not spared the grief of Mrs. Drewe. But Edith is selfish and competitive and impulsive, frankly. Had she been less impulsive she may not have become pregnant in the first place. 

 

In general she panics, lashes out, and then cannot follow through with her initial impulse...simply because she hasn't thought that far ahead. 

[MissLucas]

But Mr. Drewe also promised Edith she wouldn't do exactly what she did-- IN HIS WIFE'S PRESENCE.

I get that she feels he made a fool of her, but she made a liar out of him the very next day.

He promised how his wife would behave might be the problem here. Also: Mr Drewe IS a liar no matter if his wife keeps to promises he made in her name or not.

[izabella]

The most frustrating thing in the episode for me (besides the realization that there was going to be more Drewe Drama) was how insistent Anna was that she could not have children and that it was set in stone. I realize she probably didn't want to suffer false hope, but the stone wall of, "Nope. Won't work. That won't work either. Not gonna happen." was maddening.

 

Yes, I noticed that too!  She immediately leaps to the worst possible scenario and does not deviate with even the tiniest of glimmers of hope.  She also chooses not to talk about it with anyone, so she doesn't even give herself any option to find out if anything could be done.  She assumes the worst and won't allow any possibilities. 

 

Anna is Debbie Downer, Eeyore, and Glum* all rolled into one.

 

*Glum is a Lilliputian in the very old Gulliver's Travels cartoon..."We're doomed...It will never work...We'll never make it.."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqALm_rmM1g

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by izabella

[RedHawk]

Maybe I just never noticed before, but Thomas is vampire pale. Is he even allowed out during the day?

 

 

I can only dream that his plot this season will be that he IS becoming a vampire. He will drain off all the Crawleys and the household staff, saving Georgie and Marigold, and take over the Abbey. Thus begins a new series, called "Dark Shadows"

Edited January 13, 2016 by RedHawk

[iMonrey]

 

It was not Mary's offer that was faulty but her manner of making it. She assumed that she knew best, and best only to Carson, not to Mrs Hughes. She didn't ask, she ordered. The matter that should have decided solely between Carson and Mrs Hughes, was decided by Mary and agreed by Carson.

 

I doubt very much we've seen the matter put to bed. Cora's objections were met with a terse "Leave Mrs. Hughes to me" from Mary. So I assume at some point Mary is going to confront Mrs. Hughes about the location of the reception. At that point, Mrs. Hughes will have the opportunity to politely explain why she'd prefer to have it elsewhere. Either Mary will back down and be the one to apologize to Carson for steam-rolling the whole thing, or else she and Mrs. Hughes will put their heads together and come up with a compromise that will satisfy both Carson and Mrs. Hughes. Probably the latter.

[lucindabelle]

He promised how his wife would behave might be the problem here. Also: Mr Drewe IS a liar no matter if his wife keeps to promises he made in her name or not.

Yes, I understand that, but my point is she didn't give a fig for HIS word. She was going to do what she felt she needed to do, and his feelings be damned. At that point, his reputation and word were on the line. She knew it perfectly well. It's her fault they have to move. She could not control herself.

[Mrsjumbo]

With Thomas, he just doesn't read signals from other guys well. I'm pretty sure he attempted to get close to Pamuk, & that led to Pamuk saying he was going to get him fired unless he got him in Mary's room. Then there is the misreading of Jimmy signals... So yes, I did think he was testing Andy out but Andy has made it clear he wants nothing to do with him. Yet Thomas keeps trying.

Personally I love Thomas & yes, I thought he was super pale this episode.

With Edith/Marigold/Mrs Drewe I am reminded of Silas Marner. Poor person (Mrs Drewe) gets orphan girl. It turns out to be illegitimate child of rich person (Edith). Rich person decides they want to take the child away for a better life. Only difference is that in Silas Marner the child grew older & decided to stay with the poor parent.

I think the whole kidnapping deal could have been avoided if Edith would ever MAKE A DECISION! (See Marigold's many residences). How long has Gregson been dead & she inherited the magazine? How long will she waffle about living in London vs Downton? Even Rosamund told her that in London no one will care about her "adopted ward". She has plenty of money for a housemaid, nanny & cook. Plus a great apartment & job. Move already! Then the Crewes wouldn't have had to move. Although I'm sure it was a JF plot just to get mr Mason on the property & Crazy Lady out of the story.

Anna was so depressed that I started to amuse myself by saying her lines in Eeyore's voice "we can try but it will never work. It's hopeless".

[txhorns79]

Yes, I noticed that too!  She immediately leaps to the worst possible scenario and does not deviate with even the tiniest of glimmers of hope.  She also chooses not to talk about it with anyone, so she doesn't even give herself any option to find out if anything could be done.  She assumes the worst and won't allow any possibilities.

 

Sometimes I think Anna simply enjoys being a martyr.  So long as her life appears miserable, she can be the victim and then bask in the concern of everyone else.   

 

 

Then there is the misreading of Jimmy signals...

 

In fairness, wasn't O'Brien encouraging him a lot over Jimmy?  I kind of recall that Thomas initially didn't think he was interested, but O'Brien was getting revenge on Thomas for something or other (as you do), so she made him think that Jimmy was into him. 

Edited January 13, 2016 by txhorns79

[Mrsjumbo]

True, but you would think after all of that mess that Thomas would be a little more cautious.

How many times does Andy need to tell him "no"?

Edited January 13, 2016 by Mrsjumbo

[lucindabelle]

I think the whole kidnapping deal could have been avoided if Edith would ever MAKE A DECISION! (See Marigold's many residences). How long has Gregson been dead & she inherited the magazine? How long will she waffle about living in London vs Downton? Even Rosamund told her that in London no one will care about her "adopted ward". She has plenty of money for a housemaid, nanny & cook. Plus a great apartment & job. Move already! Then the Crewes wouldn't have had to move. Although I'm sure it was a JF plot just to get mr Mason on the property & Crazy Lady out of the story.

 

Sorry, can't agree. Edith has the right to live wherever she wants, with her child. She is not responsible for "avoiding" a crazy woman kidnapping her. I do agree she'd have an easier time in London, but that's for Edith to decide-- not a decision to make to avoid the unhinged lady who will snatch her up.

 

Mrs. Crewe's action is not defensible. It's not even really understandable. It seems like a contrivance to find a farm for Mr. Mason.

 

And even if Edith did move to London, she'd be bound to visit sometimes.

[Mrsjumbo]

I'm not saying it's Edith's fault about the kidnapping. Just that JF would probably not have written it if she was in London with Marigold.

Edith says she doesn't know what to do with her life. I just want her to make a decision! Even Rosamund said the same thing.

It's like she's being reactive in life rather than proactive.

[lucindabelle]

Oh well yes, I agree with that. Why is Edith so mousy? I mean Mary is mean, but her folks love her. Rose's mother was awful to her but she's sunny and brave. Just nature, I guess. It's tough to watch, and hard not to think, gee, what I could do with your looks, money and title...

[morakot]

... your flat in London....

[peggy06]

I have loved both episodes this season, and is it just me or is the costuming even more wonderful than normal? Jumping out at me were Mary's undergarments/robe, Cora's dress for dinner when she was in the bedroom with Robert, and Edith's hat in London. Not to mention the luxurious spotted pig fur, those were some fine pigs.

I agree. Maybe I am just taking more notice of everything this year. In the scene where Daisy comes to talk to Cora, Cora is sitting on a chair with embroidery in her hand. Everything about the scene is harmonious - the lighting, the pastel colors in the room, Cora's dress, the room you can see through the open door. It was like a painting, just lovely. Made up for some of the unlovely actions and events (looking at you, Edith).