S06.E01: Season 6, Episode 1

[Former Nun]

There's no particular reason why a great show has to have younger characters.

 

 

Hooray!   And there are still a few of us over-30s who are able to sit up on our own and follow a story line.

We're allowed to have electricity AND television!

Some of us are actually still fucking in our 70s.  I know that's impossible for many to believe.

[fishcakes]

High tea is a working class meal; it's essentially supper. Substantial and with meat, if the family budget can afford it. The upper class meal of dainties is either just tea or afternoon tea.

 

Yes. People say "high tea" because they think it sounds fancier, but high tea is bangers and mash or pasties and chips and tea in a big old mug. The cucumber sandwich and scones tea is, as you say, afternoon tea, tea, or sometimes "low tea" (because it's often served on a low table in a sitting room).

[Milburn Stone]

The one thing I liked (besides Denker and Blackmailer getting their comeupannces) was Carson gently standing up for himself when asked if he could accept a sexless marriage. One might have seen the scene going a different way, where Carson tells Mrs. Patmore that he loves Mrs. Hughes so much, he'll take her as a wife any way he can get her, with the hope that in time she'd work through her inhibitions. But no. He was clear about what he needed, and willing to make it a condition of his marriage. Bravo.

[Clanstarling]

I thought the Hughes/Carson story was sweet and honest (though getting Patmore involved was kind of junior high). No one needs to actually imagine them in the act - but I like that the story acknowledged their humanity, desires, and insecurities. I've always thought Carson had a thing for Mrs. Hughes.

Edited January 5, 2016 by clanstarling

[beeble]

Heh, I loved when Mary referred to the London apartment in question as "Michael Gregson's flat" and then Edith corrected her with "MY flat." The annoyed look on Mary's face was hilarious.

 

 

Because Mary has worked for everything she has. God what a bitch. 

 

Edith looked fantastic in this episode. I hope she moves to London lives it up as the least scandalized Crawley sister. 1: Slutty Slutterson and 3: Married an Irish servant. Go Edith!

[CleoCaesar]

Nobody is forcing you to watch plots about "geriatric sex."

 

Thanks for the suggestion! Very helpful!

 

This reaction sounds a bit like "ew, mommy and daddy did it" to me. I'm very glad we ARE getting this-- this type of response shows how clearly it's needed. There's no particular reason why a great show has to have younger characters.

 

No one particularly wants to imagine elderly people having sex. I'm not sure why it's "needed" to change people's minds about this not-pressing social issue.

[MakeMeLaugh]

I don't really want to imagine anyone having sex (unless it's Mattew Goode and ME :)), but that kiss between Hughes and Carson didn't make me think they'll be making much whoopie between the sheets any time soon. For God's sake, Carson, lay one on her next time!

[Dejana]

I love Sarah Bunting's posts...this one was a great one.  

 

Thinking about it, I think the point of Robert saying what he said to Mary about her being able to run the Kingdom after paying off the bitch in the hat was that she knows herself well enough to stand by what is right for her and won't be swayed. Maybe that was the point? I know this is a thin argument because it really is kind of dumb but there you go.

 

Also, how utterly stupid was missy blackmailer for "flouncing" into Downton, pushing her way past everyone when she was blackmailing a member of the house?  Did she not know it was illegal?  She being a chambermaid in her former career, thinks she can win over a Lord and Lady and nothing will happen?  She had a lot of anger toward Mary...for what reason?  Because Mary had everything that crabby face didn't?  Even when she is leaving she is seething with hate.  Who bonds with a maid when they are staying at a hotel for 4 nights?  Did she want to be become best girlfriends and Mary didn't notice her?  Again, kind of dumb.

 

A couple of months ago I read Below Stairs, the memoirs a woman who started working as a kitchen maid at 15, in 1920s England. She didn't see a whole lot that was scandalous, firsthand, but would hear stories when the families were visiting each other and got to socialize with servants from other houses. They gossiped, but she said the idea of blackmail never occurred to her at the time, and even if it had, she wouldn't have had a clue on how to go about it, contacting the media, or anything like that. So, maybe Mary's blackmailer had seen a similar plot in a movie, but had never tried it herself before and wasn't so great about thinking things through.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Dejana

[whatsatool]

Sigh. Anna will do everything possible to make this drive a wedge between her and Bates. All for his own good, of course.

Do you think Anna is passive aggressive?

[whatsatool]

Bates didn't fight in WW1 but (with Lord Grantham) in some earlier war (Boer war?).

Yes but heaven only knows what happened in South Africa.

[txhorns79]

Do you think Anna is passive aggressive?

 

I think Anna is tedious.  I feel like she's made it her job to see the misery in everything. At this point, I feel like Anna would totally kill herself just so she could be a martyr to the cause of Bates finding eventual happiness.   

 

 

No one particularly wants to imagine elderly people having sex. I'm not sure why it's "needed" to change people's minds about this not-pressing social issue.

 

I don't know what most people want to imagine, but I do think it's a positive that they are exploring what a marriage between two older people would mean in this society.  I mean, what I learned is that Mrs. Hughes is extremely sheltered and needs to grow up a lot.  If they hadn't resolved the issue during the episode, I would tell Mrs. Hughes that someone who is too timid to discuss sex with her soon to be husband, probably should think long and hard whether marriage is right for her.     

[Former Nun]

I think Anna is tedious.  I feel like she's made it her job to see the misery in everything. At this point, I feel like Anna would totally kill herself just so she could be a martyr to the cause of Bates finding eventual happiness.

 

 

This never occurred to me, TXHorns79, but that's the exact mood this episode set.

 

I'm enjoying the negative attitudes/comments about "elderly people" and sex.  I'm sure decades from now some will laugh and say, "What was I thinking?"  Hopefully, we all become elderly...and if we're lucky we can find someone somewhere to have sex with us...old, creepy, and horrible though we may be.

[Ohwell]

I would much rather imagine Mr. Carson and Mrs Hughes having sex than Mary or Edith having sex with anyone.  I'm not kidding. 

[P3pp3rb1rd]

 

And I wonder, would any high ranking family knowingly employ a gay person?  Knowing that it was illegal back then, I just can't see a real Earl hiring a homosexual once that secret was out.

 

Oh my understanding is that there is a well-worn tradition of homosexuality--men and women--tolerated among the upper classes in Great Britain, especially England. Frequently it was a school experience or just joked about as a school experience (boys and girls of upper classes were rigidly segregated at school).

[awaken]

Another thought, regarding the Lady Mary scandal: I posted on another Masterpiece forum that I've finished reading three memoirs that featured English nobility during the 1900 - 1940 period. Some of that crowd was quite racy. Certainly she would have been discreetly gossiped about, but weren't they careful about glass houses and all that?

 

Maybe it was different and more conservative in the north.

 

May I ask which memoirs?  That sounds interesting!  I'd love to learn more about this time period!

[beeble]

Carson and Hughes ought to raid the scotch cabinet, get properly buzzed, talk a little dirty, and then just go for it in the library. Then in the back seat of the car. Then under a portrait of one of the former Lords of the Manor. Then in Mary's den-of-sin bed. Then head over to Violet's house and start over again. 

 

And don't mention warts ever again.

[CeeBeeGee]

 Lord Grantham's not in a position to nag Edith about anything given his constant concern trolling when Edith and Anthony Strallan were engaged. Aside from Sir Anthony himself, Lord G is the person most responsible for busting-up that prospective marriage. Edith had a chance, and Lord G did everything he could to blow it.

 

YUP. I will never forgive Sir Anthony for that. I swear, it's like Lord G and Violet WANT Edith to be alone so they can pity her.

 

The horses! The Clothes! The vistas! The vocabulary! The furniture and smalls! Sigh..

Edith did look golden, but Mary in jodhpurs and bob was the best. Love her lack of self pity when she fell.

 

They both looked so good, Edith in her flapper fashions and Mary riding astride, hell for leather.

 

I wonder if they didn't really snack much.  They'd just wait it off until the next meal.

 

I remember reading about the early years of Diana (Princess of Wales)'s marriage--she would come into the kitchen to snack and hang out and the kitchen staff had to tell her she couldn't do it.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I just wish someone would have been like: "Denker, just remember your job security is tied to the continued good health of an 80 or 90-something year old woman, so perhaps you shouldn't act so high and mighty with the other staff about their job status." 

 

Didn't Edith already stick it to Mary when she informed the Turkish Embassy about Mary's tryst all those seasons ago?

Yup Txhorns79, you are correct that Edith unleashed the Pamuk scandal. Oddly she didn't get punished by her parents for doing that. That said, Mary mercilessly taunted Edith before Pamuk and more so afterwards...Mary is very smug and as the prettier older sister she always enjoyed queening it over Edith.

I'm a Txhorn from 87...Hook em!

[caligirl50]

Dejana - did you like the book?  Do you recommend it?

[CeeBeeGee]

We seem to be in the minority about liking this couple, but I've loved them from the start.  I wish the Green mystery hadn't been so long to solve, but at least it's now over.  And I think John Bates has proven that he's a good man and a devoted husband.  He'd like to have children, but he tried so hard in Episode One to prove to Anna that she was more important to him and that they should just be thankful that she is free and they should be happy just to be together.

 

I adore the Bateses. I love their genuine respect for each other, as well as their manifest love. I was rewatching old episodes and the rape storyline, when she was shutting him out, was KILLING me. When he said she was breaking his heart, I was actually crying. They are great together.

 

Edith looked fantastic in this episode. I hope she moves to London lives it up as the least scandalized Crawley sister. 1: Slutty Slutterson and 3: Married an Irish servant. Go Edith!

 

I like Mary but I love Edith even more so (middle sister solidarity! Though I have no sisters, only brothers) I can totally get behind this statement.

[WatchrTina]

 

Edith unleashed the Pamuk scandal. Oddly she didn't get punished by her parents for doing that.

Do you think they ever knew?  They were aware that there were rumors circulating about Mary and of course Cora knew the truth about Mr. Pamuke's death but I don't recall any evidence that Cora ever found out that Edith was the one who spread the rumors about Mary.  It would not surprise me if Mary never told her mother about it because she never wanted to speak of the guy-I-just-met-dead-in-my-bed incident again.

Edited January 5, 2016 by WatchrTina

[kat165]

Bates didn't know the story behind "her ladyship's soap." Thomas just told him to say that to O'Brien as the perfect threat. He told Anna later on what he said to her when Anna asked & added that he had no idea what it meant.

 

Best part of the ep: Lady Mary falling off her horse, on her ass, into a puddle. I wondered if viewers all over America stood up

and cheered. I know I did. :)

 

I love Mr. Carson & Mrs. Hughes. That whole portion of the ep was hilarious and touching.

 

The Bates bore the crap out of me. I laughed when the first time we saw Anna she was whinging in a corner downstairs.

 

I look forward to the rest of the season.

Edited January 5, 2016 by kat165

[helenamonster]

I think it actually kind of makes sense that Thomas would enjoy spending time with the children. He's generally pretty misanthropic due to the fact that most people treat him badly and judge him, but the children don't know about his "nature" and wouldn't understand it anyway.

 

I really hate to see Anna being almost willfully miserable when she's been a rather sturdy optimist in the past. Even when everything looked bleak for Bates's murder trial/subsequent incarceration, she pushed through and was determined to get him freed against all odds. I feel like the Anna of 1912 would just buck up and either try again or make peace with the fact that children were just not in the cards for her, but she's been through a lot since then so it kind of makes sense. Her life was pretty shitty before she came to Downton. Her father died in a work-related accident when she was young and he got replaced with a stepfather who molested her and who she couldn't get rid of because she and her mother and sister would be destitute without him. Then she gets a job at Downton, which would be considered very impressive for someone of her class. She was head housemaid who would presumably become a lady's maid once one of the daughters got married. She probably thought the worst was behind her. Then everything that we've seen play out happened and she seems almost terrified to be happy and at peace because who knows when the next proverbial Mr. Green is going to come knocking? I can kind of relate to her inability to let herself be happy when she's so used to misery almost being right around the corner.

 

I did, however, like that Anna and Bates were able to resolve their issues with and thank Molesley and Baxter for helping them. I really hope the four of them become friends and start spending the very little free time they have with each other. They can be the next generation of the Carson/Mrs. Hughes/Mrs. Patmore squad.

[Dejana]

Dejana - did you like the book?  Do you recommend it?

 

Yes, i'd recommend Below Stairs to any fan of shows like Downton Abbey or Upstairs Downstairs.  It's a pretty easy read, but definitely a less rosy picture of service and the employers, than DA tends to paint, but delves a bit deeper into the social life/hopes/dreams of a servant back then. You get a good overview of the changes in the world of great houses and service from the early 1920s to post-World War II, and how the author felt about her time in that world, looking back. 

 

It's all I think about when I see Anna, ever since I saw a comment about Bates being a human Dementor.

 

Carson and Mrs. Patmore were hilarious in their conversations but it's really something Mrs. Hughes should have been able to bring up with the man she's marrying. I doubt it's entirely a generational thing, because in any time you will have people who are more shy and naive about sex and reticent to discuss anything about it, even now.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Dejana

[lucindabelle]

The one thing I liked (besides Denker and Blackmailer getting their comeupannces) was Carson gently standing up for himself when asked if he could accept a sexless marriage. One might have seen the scene going a different way, where Carson tells Mrs. Patmore that he loves Mrs. Hughes so much, he'll take her as a wife any way he can get her, with the hope that in time she'd work through her inhibitions. But no. He was clear about what he needed, and willing to make it a condition of his marriage. Bravo.

 

Great point. I was sure it was going there too. And you're right, this was much better and more honest and more surprising. Had he backed down you could feel youngsters the world over heaving a sigh of relief that little old ladies and old men are so tame. This is better.

 

 

 

No one particularly wants to imagine elderly people having sex. I'm not sure why it's "needed" to change people's minds about this not-pressing social issue.

  

I don't think it's there to change your mind and clearly, responses on the board show that it isn't true that no one likes to think of elderly people in love (having sex. Can't say. I'm not sure I like to imagine any two particular people having sex...) th There is indeed a real thing called ageism and it's not a joke. Mick jagger is in his 70s now and I'm sure a lot of women still want to have sex with him. David Bowie I think is also 70 or close to it, Bernadette peters Is 68 and divinely sexy on "Mozart in the jungle."

Mrs Hughes and Carson didn't dye their hair or hit the gym but that doesn't make them less worthy to be whole figures of a romantic story, which includes sex. There are plenty of shows with teenagers and 20-somethings but this is actually the first time I can remember seeing this kind of older love taken seriously (except for the old I think 70s show time after time.) I don't think I've ever seen it on an American show... As I noted, even Han solo and Princess Leia didn't kiss, though they are married. I guess becaude there's an idea that older people do look silly. Just exactly what mrs Hughes feared.

Oh my understanding is that there is a well-worn tradition of homosexuality--men and women--tolerated among the upper classes in Great Britain, especially England. Frequently it was a school experience or just joked about as a school experience (boys and girls of upper classes were rigidly segregated at school).

It was prevalent indeed but if anything it tended to make them more hypocritical and less tolerant. Oscar Wilde knew the prosecutor from Eton, I believe. Oscar Wilde's name was still struck off the rolls of his schools for years and people grew up not even knowing what he'd done but that it was bad.

I can sell believe that they all knew but turned a blind eye, but when the police showed up, roberts wanting to protect barrow strains credulity, especially because barrow had once been caught stealing.

In fact through the years (and Ive been doing the binge watching thing) barrows short memory is bizarre. Bates and Anna saved him from destitution. How does he not remember that when edna arrives and he throws Anna under the bus? How does he go on saying only Sybil was nice to him? How does he still razz Carson when he had to beg to get his job back at all?

[J-Man]

 

My own father was born in 1920-- he died in 2007. He went from coal stove heating whole apartment, to serving in WWII, to computers and microwaves.

Now I'm trying to imagine how Robert or Carson would have reacted to a microwave. Remember Carson's disdain for the toaster?

 

Did anyone else thing Mrs. Hughes seemed much thinner (especially in the face?) She was the only one of the characters who seems to have aged in accordance with the show's timeline. I believe we started in 1912, and now it's 1925? How many of the characters actually look as if they've aged 13 years? And what year were we in at the end of Series/Season 5?

Edited January 5, 2016 by J-Man

[mightycrone]

Mrs. Patmore, while genuinely happy for her friend, at the same time wistfully remarks that she, too, would love a man to say that she's beautiful.  Such a telling, bittersweet moment.  This show gets a whole lot wrong, but what it gets right is gold.  

[Roseanna]

Because Mary has worked for everything she has.

No, she hasn't.

Mary married an heir of the title and estate, Matthew, and luckily bore his heir before he died. Luckily, too, he had made a testament and left her fortune which he had inherited from his former fiancee's father (without Swire money, the Crawleys must have left Downton Abbey). All the big decisions about modernization of agriculture were already done by Matthew and Tom before Mary began to manage the estate.

[Roseanna]

I think Mary would have been okay. Widows having lovers was tolerated. Even married women being promiscuous was tolerated, as long as they had popped out an heir and a spare first and were discreet about their affairs. It's the not yet married girls and the never married women who couldn't just take a lover without becoming labelled as "fallen" women.

 

Plus this is the Roaring Twenties, very different from the Victorian age.

You are right. F.ex. lady Diana Cooper née Manners was officially a daughter of Duke of Rutland and his wofe but his real father was Henry Cust.

Lady Diana was born in 1892, so the reality in the Victorian age seems to have been different than the facade - at least for aristocracy.

Remember Anna Karenina and Vronsky: so long you had a secret affair (which everybody knew), it was okay. But if you left your husband and cohabited openly, you were left outside by the high society.

When one thinks about, it's rather odd that the show totally lacks the aristocratic concept of marriage. Marriages are based on love (even that of Robert and Cora turned so), and there is no adultery.

[Roseanna]

I can sell believe that they all knew but turned a blind eye, but when the police showed up, roberts wanting to protect barrow strains credulity, especially because barrow had once been caught stealing.

By protecting Barrow from prosecution Robert was also protected the reputation of Downton. However, Robert took rather lightly Barrow's action. It's not at all same if one tries to kiss somebody than if one comes another's bed uninvited. But then, JF handled also the Pamuk affair rather oddly.

All in all, it was curious Robert made Barrow an under butler after all that had happened, solely because of Isis although he seems to love the dog more than his family. I guess it was only JF's trick in order to get Barrow to stay in DA. His schemes are needed in the *show*.

[Andorra]

I'm 48, so not exactly "young" any more and I certainly don't want to see the awkward sex talk between Mr. Carson and Mrs Hughes. It's a kind of humor I don't like and more fitting for movies like "American Pie" (which I didn't like either). Just because it's older people, it doesn't make it any better, it's still not funny just embarrassing. I used to like Mrs Hughes, but now her whole storyline is about Carson (whom I detest), which is disappointing. I like the Mrs Hughes/Mrs Patmore friendship though and Leslie Nichols is gold no matter what awkward lines she gets from Julian Fellows. 

[txhorns79]

I'm 48, so not exactly "young" any more and I certainly don't want to see the awkward sex talk between Mr. Carson and Mrs Hughes. It's a kind of humor I don't like and more fitting for movies like "American Pie" (which I didn't like either). Just because it's older people, it doesn't make it any better, it's still not funny just embarrassing.

 

This may be the first time Downton Abbey has been compared to American Pie.  I would agree it was silly and awkward to have Mrs. Patmore inquiring of Mr. Carson as to whether he expected to have sex with Mrs. Hughes after they were married.  However, I'm not even positive the word "sex" was used, much less that anything that was said rose to level of something that would typically be heard in a raunchy sex comedy.  Aside from the immature way the conversation was handled, the conversation itself seemed pretty adult and generally dignified.    

[mbutterfly]

Hooray!   And there are still a few of us over-30s who are able to sit up on our own and follow a story line.

We're allowed to have electricity AND television!

Some of us are actually still fucking in our 70s.  I know that's impossible for many to believe.

So true!

[beeble]

No, she hasn't.

Mary married an heir of the title and estate, Matthew, and luckily bore his heir before he died. Luckily, too, he had made a testament and left her fortune which he had inherited from his former fiancee's father (without Swire money, the Crawleys must have left Downton Abbey). All the big decisions about modernization of agriculture were already done by Matthew and Tom before Mary began to manage the estate.

Obviously. I was being sarcastic. Mary was mocking Edith for calling the flat Greyson left to her hers. Hence the remark.

[stillshimpy]

On the subject of whether or not Anna sees herself as, or has a desire to be a martyr, I genuinely don't think that's precisely it.  What I think Fellowes is trying illustrate are the confining roles of women, so that we couldn't ever feel like we were enough.  One of the ways of preventing women from achieving anything was to keep them in a perpetual state of feeling inadequate.   Usually about things that we can't control very much: Like fertility, body shape and size, looks.   

 

It's just a classic way to hold anyone back is to convince them they aren't good enough.  Anna is a poor pick to illustrate "This is what women thought was the most important part of them....how much use they could be for a man" so that despite standing by Bates through hell, high water, damnation and flood, Anna could actually reasonably think, "Bu...bu....but my faulty womb! No man could ever love a woman who could not birth his mirror image into the world!  I'll be left and abandoned..." and it's the last stuff that has the really sinister edge to it as a societal mindset, because it sets women up to be perpetually subservient to men.  Always afraid they'd be left rather than asking "Who would want this jerk?  See ya!"  

 

It's nigh on impossible to have self-respect when the world lines up to tell you that you never good enough anyway.  Speaking of! : 

 

 

 

No one particularly wants to imagine elderly people having sex. I'm not sure why it's "needed" to change people's minds about this not-pressing social issue.

 

Actually it is a social issue of the present time and come with me on a fun time machine ride and meet Ed Bernays .  Almost everything we believe in the modern age, started with him, the father of public relations which was a term he made up because he knew propaganda had a negative connotation, thanks to the Nazis. He was a fucking delight as a human being and believed we were all stupid...and famously wrote books and gave interviews in which he said as much...directly, no couching of terms.  

 

Anyway, he is a huge part of the reason that people worry about being deemed irrelevant in the world.  Marginalizing huge swaths of the population be it older individuals, people without a lot of stuff in their lives, women who aren't decorative , etc.  comes from advertising and public relations.  That's right, we've programmed to have that "Ew!! Older people continuing to act as if they are vital and full human beings on both an intellectual, emotional and sexual level!  Clutch pearls and gag!"  is a result of the fact that we've all been programmed to have that response....mostly to sell anti-aging face creams, hair dyes, etc.  

 

Honest to goodness, before the youth obsessed culture of the last one hundred years or so, older people were prized for their wisdom and considered important.  

 

So yeah, it's a societal issue that we want to throw away big chunks of the world and pretend they aren't important or having nothing to contribute. 

 

And as for the "don't want to imagine that" ...yeah, me either, but there's hardly anyone that I would look at and think "I wonder what they look like getting their freak on???"  ....so there's that and the show depicted exactly one embrace and a kiss while telling a story that had to do with older people having full lives that even encompassed sex, insecurities and desire.  

 

No one stops being a full person on some societal time clock and considering the percentage of the planet that is past 60, I'm willing to bet that far more people were delighted to see people of their age who hadn't been neutered in the pursuit of the perpetually duped youth market.  

 

Ageism shouldn't actually be catered to for a lot of reasons, but among them is that a lot of older people aren't done on a lot of levels including sex and (very important and why it is actually social issue worth addressing) in participating in solving the problems of a world.  We need the help of all members of any given society and one really easy way to not get it?  Deem a giant segment of the population as repugnant. 

 

So I found the story cute, and I did bump up against that "this feels a little awkward doesn't it?" reaction, but then I ended up wondering why that is, because whereas I'm not in that age bracket yet, someday I will be.  We all will be if we're lucky and I'm pretty damned sure I wouldn't want to disappear from view as anything other than a two dimensional representation on TV, films and in books. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Kohola3]

Well articulated, stillshimpy.  I totally agree and was delighted to veer away from the young and/or rich characters to bring us something totally different in pursuing this story line. I highly doubt it will be a recurring theme but was a very unexpected diversion.

 

And the big bonus was the body language (no pun intended) and facial expressions in the awkward discussions.  Those three are golden!  Loved Mrs Patmore tossing back the port!

[Haleth]

I thought the episode was lovely.  The Carson/Hughes/Patmore conversations were awkward, but Mr Carson's obvious love and respect for Elsie were touching and apparent.  I don't have a problem with them being older and worrying about the sexual nature of their marriage.  It's realistic and sweet.  (Someone pages back asked about why Hughes and Patmore were Mrs?  The head cook and head housekeeper were given the honorific title of Mrs.)

 

For all the anachronisms mentioned regarding Thomas and Rose, the one that stood out for me in this episode was Robert calling the kitchen appliance a refrigerator.  Wouldn't it be the ice box?  Or was that just an American term?

 

I've always loved John and Anna despite their neverending trials and tribulations.  I'm hoping (haven't looked at spoilers) that by the end of the series she is pregnant, now that the stress of a trial is over.  And she needs a bloom to her cheeks.  (Not to mention a better wig.)

[Clanstarling]

I've always loved John and Anna despite their neverending trials and tribulations.  I'm hoping (haven't looked at spoilers) that by the end of the series she is pregnant, now that the stress of a trial is over.  And she needs a bloom to her cheeks.  (Not to mention a better wig.)

I had trouble paying attention to the dialog and acting because of that wig. It made her look so awful and old beyond her years, so much so that the discussion of children seemed out of place - she looked almost too old to have them. Edited January 5, 2016 by clanstarling

[whatsatool]

YUP. I will never forgive Sir Anthony for that. I swear, it's like Lord G and Violet WANT Edith to be alone so they can pity her.

They both looked so good, Edith in her flapper fashions and Mary riding astride, hell for leather.

I remember reading about the early years of Diana (Princess of Wales)'s marriage--she would come into the kitchen to snack and hang out and the kitchen staff had to tell her she couldn't do it.

I'm reading The Residence and they have the same problem in the White House.

[Kohola3]

I thought the horrible wig and the equally horrible zombie make up were ironic since at the BAFTA awards, the costume and make-up artists were asked to stand in recognition of their wonderful job.

 

Guess they hadn't seen this episode....

[ZoloftBlob]

For me its not the "old people having sex" aspect that was irritating, it was the very idea that Mrs. Hughes is such a shrinking violet over it. I mean, she's fired people for doing the nasty. While Edwardian society likes to pretend its all so dainty, realistically the only characters who went to their marital beds virgins were Matthew and Sybil. I find it very hard to believe that Hughes was still pondering her "special flower" and seriously considered a sexless marriage. That's what I found off and childish about it...

[stillshimpy]

find it very hard to believe that Hughes was still pondering her "special flower" and seriously considered a sexless marriage. That's what I found off and childish about it...

 

But that isn't what the story was actually about.  She had no concerns about giving it up for good or preserving her virginity for the sake of being a virgin: It was literally and directly -- in the actual dialogue so there's no doubt here -- about her concerns relating to age and appearance.   It was very direct and she spoke those exact words.  She was not concerned about her precious hymen, she was concerned that Mr. Carson would think her older body was ridiculous and even went as far as to say that. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by stillshimpy

[ZoloftBlob]

Yeah but like... realistically, it ain't like they got introduced over the internet. He's got to have some idea what's under the petticoats isn't a nubile young girl...

 

They've known each other for years and he asked her to marry him... it isn't like he asked sight unseen.

Edited January 5, 2016 by ZoloftBlob

[fishcakes]

I thought there was a little more to it. She talked about being a disappointment to him, and I don't think it was just about how her body looks but also about her inexperience. She didn't come right out and say, "what if I can't Do Sex correctly?" but I think that was a big part of her concern.

Edited January 5, 2016 by fishcakes

[marceline]

It's funny to see all the angst and discussion about Hughes/Carson sex. I didn't have a big problem with the story except for the ridiculousness of Patmore playing go-between. It would've made a tiny bit more sense from a plot perspective if Hughes had talked to Anna, Anna talked to Bates then Bates talked to Carson. You know, girl talk leads to guy talk. I don't know if Fellowes meant this as a PSA but this was a lovely example of why comprehensive sex education is so important. If you can't have an honest conversation with the person you are going to be sleeping with something needs to be fixed.

 

Carson and Hughes ought to raid the scotch cabinet, get properly buzzed, talk a little dirty, and then just go for it in the library. Then in the back seat of the car. Then under a portrait of one of the former Lords of the Manor. Then in Mary's den-of-sin bed. Then head over to Violet's house and start over again. 

 

I think you're giving Carson waaaaayyyy too much credit in the stamina department. ;-)

[Andorra]

But seriously, people: Having a screwball awkward sex talk comedy is now supposed to be "bravely adressing sex"?? Just because the people are elder?  If they really wanted to be brave, they should have showed some USD between Carson and Hughes, or show some tender, tentative physical exploring. Reducing Mrs Hughes to  a shrinking violet who would ask her "bestie" to talk with the guy, if he wants to take her virgnity is not brave, it's ridiculous and OOC. 

[jordanpond]

Oh this show. So beautiful to look at, so irritating at times.Robert sounded like a perfect fool, comparing his number of servants with the other guy's number of servants. If it once took 15 housemaids and now they have four, the problem isn't whether it matches the neighbors number, but whether or not those four are being worked to death.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves about this show. In interviews, the show's creators have been claiming for years that they are showing how much this way of life is changing. And at first glance, it seems to be true: several times over the last few seasons the Crawleys were shown to be cautious about automatically replacing lost staff members. So it looks like they are reluctantly changjng their lifestyle in accorandance with the changing times,

However, absolutely nothing about their way of life has changed. If they are operating with one less cook, the Crawleys are not eating less; if they are short one footman, they still get served the same number of courses. Their clothing is as beautiful and expensive as ever, they still have as many bouquets on the dinner table as they've always had, and still have the door opened by a servant in any room or vehicle they enter.

So the only people suffering through all these "cutbacks" are the servants. If the family is spending less on staff, but still receive every single service they did in the show's premiere, then the only answer is that the already overworked servants are all doing even more chores than they used to.

But this is never acknowledged. The only exception was one episode when Mr. Carson heaped first, second, and third footman duties on the sole footman, Mr. Molesley, in an effort to punish the "foolish" Molesley for acting "above himself."

So, yes, there have been many cutbacks at Downton that reflect the changing times, but it's only the servants that have suffered.

Edited January 5, 2016 by jordanpond

[lucindabelle]

Great point! Like downsizing everywhere, it's just more work for the same money. In fairness though seems to me over the years Daisy and Mrs. patmore have complained about doing the work with less hands. Just not this season yet.

[blackwing]

Someone please help me out.  When Robert and Carson were in the library discussing the potential cuts to the staff, Robert was talking about the managing of the estate, and said something like "Mr. Crawley and Mr. Branson are doing a great job".  Who is Mr. Crawley?  Was he talking about Matthew?  That's the only Mr. Crawley besides Robert that I know.  It's weird, because I could have sworn the way Robert was talking made it sound like they are "currently" doing a great job.

 

The Carson/Mrs. Hughes "romance" seems very forced to me.  They have known each other for decades, and we have seen them for five seasons, and there was never any indication before the events of last season that they were actually romantically inclined.  Sure, they were colleagues and close friends, but we never saw any signs of anything more until the sudden proposal.  It was like Fellowes thought "here are two characters that each are in badly of need of a storyline of their own... let's put them together!"  I thought it was great that Mrs. Hughes said "don't you think you should start calling me Elsie", because, well, yeah.

 

Perhaps my favourite relationship is the one between Violet and Isobel.  These two started out as bitter enemies, but have grown to become friends who can still butt heads over differences of opinion.  When Violet went to visit her old Russian boyfriend in that Russian slum, she brought Isobel along for strength, and I liked when she lamented to her "oh Isobel, I had no idea it was this bad".  Then when Isobel was about to marry Lord Merton, Violet bemoaned her fear of losing a companion.  Their interaction this episode was great.  I loved when Isobel at dinner simply stated "we are about to have a fight".

 

It greatly bothers me that the whole "Cora slipped on the soap" incident has never come to light.  I can't remember if the O'Brien actress quit or was fired, but the disappearance of this character seems to have ended that storyline completely.  When Cora was potentially dying of that fever, I really wanted O'Brien to redeem herself and tell Cora she was sorry for the soap, but she never did.  And it's even worse that Thomas knows and has kept this hidden all these years.  I would love to see O'Brien return and make amends, and to have Cora forgive her.

 

I am not a fan of Edith either. I feel sorry for the actress, they really do not use makeup to her advantage, I seriously visualize a certain Popeye character everytime she is on screen.

 

I have greatly despised Edith from the start.  I don't agree with others that she is a "classic English beauty", I think she is a troll with an unfortunate nose.  Fully agree on the Olive Oyl comparisons.  This being the final season, I am sure she is going to triumph in the end, but I would love to see her end up in the dumps.

[SoSueMe]

Perhaps my favourite relationship is the one between Violet and Isobel.  These two started out as bitter enemies, but have grown to become friends who can still butt heads over differences of opinion.  When Violet went to visit her old Russian boyfriend in that Russian slum, she brought Isobel along for strength, and I liked when she lamented to her "oh Isobel, I had no idea it was this bad".  Then when Isobel was about to marry Lord Merton, Violet bemoaned her fear of losing a companion.  Their interaction this episode was great.  I loved when Isobel at dinner simply stated "we are about to have a fight".

 

 

 

I have greatly despised Edith from the start.  I don't agree with others that she is a "classic English beauty", I think she is a troll with an unfortunate nose.  Fully agree on the Olive Oyl comparisons.  This being the final season, I am sure she is going to triumph in the end, but I would love to see her end up in the dumps.

I love Violet's and Isobel's "frenemy" relationship too.

Edith may have Olive Oyl's figure (Actually they seem to have strapped down all the ladies' assets) but the poor girl has Alice's nose (She is another Popeye character.)