S02.E11: 211

[loki567]

Yeah, show's imploding. All this mystery stuff is clearly not the writers' strength and the baby storyline (like almost all television baby storylines) was a huge miscalculation. I think it's generally agreed that Ruth Wilson was the strongest aspect of season one, she and Alison have been completely sidelined because they don't want us in her head space to keep the paternity guessing games going and that's a huge mistake in a show built on its povs. "I'm a Montauk girl," makes zero sense based off of where she was in season one. 

 

And my God, those are some laughingly bad court scenes. Like 1980s bad. 

[Empress1]

I definitely remember Alison telling Noah that she wanted to be a doctor but didn't have money to go to medical school (in the first season). But I think it was only brought up once and never again since. I don't remember which episode though-- I think it was the first episode her mother appears in 

I remember that too - she said something like "it's rigged against people who don't have money," and then Noah realized she assumed he came from money and revealed that his parents were blue-collar and he went to college on a swimming scholarship. And I remember thinking that not only did she not have money, but she wouldn't know how to navigate the system to borrow it. (The residents I know are broke as hell because they owe $200K-plus in student loans. One of my friend's sisters is a doctor and is married to one, and their student loan balance is something like half a million.) That's stuff people have to teach you, and no one would have taught Alison that. I can't remember anything about her mother's education, only that she flitted around doing random hippie shit, and I'm guessing high school guidance for her was limited.

[StatMom]

Maybe Noah can work the phrase "actual, non-penis-based solace" into his new book. It's far better than any of the examples of his writing we've seen so far.

[Muffyn]

And my God, those are some laughingly bad court scenes. Like 1980s bad. 

Maybe Richard Schiff could rip off his shirt and announce "Grinder rests!"

[desirina]

If Noah is getting up in the middle of the night to work, he could work anywhere in that house since it would be quiet.  He didn't have to be in the bathroom.

 

1 was thinking the same thing! Just goes to show that he is a narcissistic person and makes everything all about him, even if he brings it upon himself. He seems to need a reason to complain about his situation, which is never his fault.

 

I am wracking my brain trying to remember which vehicle it was that he was paying the auto mechanic to lie about repairing. Was it a mini-van? Sorry, I cannot recall.

Maybe Richard Schiff could rip off his shirt and announce "Grinder rests!"

 

Haha! That would be comedy gold!V

 

 

[Lemons]

Also, I think cole and Allison belong together. They have history and probably a child together but they couldn't overcome the death of Gabriel without separating and going through this descent. I think Allison used Noah more than the other way around, even though she allowed him to write his best seller. It has come at quite a cost to Noah as he lost his family and now an old friend and had turned into his father in law who he despises.

 

It's sounding more and more like Allison and Cole belong together.  She just gave a speech to Noah about not "belonging" in NYC with the fancy book parties.  And how she is a home town girl or something like that.  Cole also talked about hating the city and never wanting to leave Montauk.  Cole's wife will probably end up hating being in the boondocks and want to go back to the city.

[racked]

At least on Friends, though, they offered an explanation - the apartment was rent-controlled, and was still in Monica's aunt's name.

 

On this show, which is so focused on money and class, they went out of their way to emphasize how huge and expensive the apartment was. And they specifically told us how much Noah got as an advance - $400,000. (And much of that would have gone to taxes and Noah's agent.) The money he got could never pay for that place for that amount of time, along with all of their other expenses. So why give us those specifics?

Everyone assumed it was an accidental hit and run after Scotty was killed, but the police suspected otherwise, and now Noah is accused of intentionally running down Scotty. If that's what the driver did, it's murder, not an accident.

 

I think at most they'd have a case for voluntary manslaughter, because I don't think anyone thinks Noah lured Scotty out into the road and plotted in advance to kill him that way.  If they think it was intentional this has 'heat of the moment' written all over it. But it's still an odd conclusion. 

 

I am so confused about how they could afford that apartment! A 3 bedroom in Tribeca? The entirety of Noah's advance could maybe be the down payment, but who is paying for the mortgage and HOA fees? I guess this show is trusting that we'll disregard these details as part of the "unreliable narrator" aspect of the show? The apartment is not that big or grand, it just seems that way to them?

[izabella]

That apartment has to be rented.  No way Noah could buy that.  He can't afford to rent it, either, but buying is entirely out of the question with just a book advance.  He didn't get the millions he'd need to buy with a measly book advance.  But with that $400k advance, as stated in the show, he'd be able to get a lease.

[Catherinewriter]

Scotty and Cole's scene broke my heart. Scotty may be a junkie, but I feel for him, and the actor is bringing it.

 

I hope someone can clear up my confusion about the living quarters in this series. There have been so many houses, apartments, coach houses on someone else's property, etc. that I really don't know who's living where. Main problem is the house that Cole lit up and burned down. If that was Allison's house, where did the house come from they she just sold to get the money for the Lobster Roll? And why was there no follow up to the arson - did no one notice it because there's so much more going on.

[Babalu]

Main problem is the house that Cole lit up and burned down. If that was Allison's house, where did the house come from they she just sold to get the money for the Lobster Roll? And why was there no follow up to the arson - did no one notice it because there's so much more going on.

Yes, that was Alison's house (which she inherited from her grandmother). I'm sure there were repercussions, but probably not serious ones, and they happened off-screen between the night Joanie was born/the fire and the scenes where Joanie is almost a year old. (I don't think we've seen anything in the interim, have we?) Whoever brought the property obviously did it for the location, and the house was going to be a knock-down, so I'm guessing Alison didn't press charges against Cole and may have paid for cleaning up the debris, so there was no legal fall-out, and it didn't really effect the sale.

Wouldn't it be funny if the buyer was Max and his beautiful new place is on Alison's old home site? I'm sure that's not the case, though, because Max thought Noah might have a hard time finding him.

[JenE4]

Wouldn't it be funny if the buyer was Max and his beautiful new place is on Alison's old home site? I'm sure that's not the case, though, because Max thought Noah might have a hard time finding him.

I forgot until I read this, but I actually DID think it was the same location. I thought the driveway looked the same, and I couldn't tell but I was trying to see whether the view looked the same out the window, but water is water. And that was my first thought when Max asked how Noah found it. But, yeah, in retrospect, Max would know whether he bought it from Alison, and Noah would have no reason not to say it was where Alison's house was.

[Quiche]

I really enjoyed this episode.  I didn't like the last two episodes.  Episode 11 had that magic again and I think it had to do with being so much back in Montauk.

What I liked: that Allison is acting independently, that Allison went into a business partnership with Cole and they bought the Lobster Roll.

I'm glad that Allison and Cole are partners.  I think he's the person she can trust most in the world, next to her mother.  I don't care what Noah thinks.  Since they are not married yet, he doesn't get a say.  I also hope Allison is smart enough to put her half of the Lobster Roll in a trust for Joni.

I also like the scene with Helen's mother.  I liked what she said about a little forgiveness going a long ways.

I also liked the scene with Noah and Max.  It was rich with feelings and history.  That's why you watch "The Affair".  I also liked watching The Affair for the Montauk ambience.

It's interesting that the POVs was Cole and Noah, and not Allison.  It would've been nice to see her POV also.  She seems to have been marginalized quite a bit in the latter part of season two.

I really don't care who killed Scotty.  I'm not going to waste time wondering who is the father of Joni.  I'm just glad that they are now back in Montauk!

[SlackerInc]

I also think it makes no sense that Luisa wants a fresh start enough to be insulted by Cherry saying she wishes the ranch was still around, but how fresh a start can you have when "your' restaurant is 50% owned by the same ex you didn't want to emulate 20 minutes ago. Fucking dumb writing. 

 

Good lord, you can say that again.  When I got to that scene, twenty minutes in, I stopped the show and literally said out loud "Aaaand I'm out."  I did go read a recap so this episode thread wouldn't be so confusing, but that's it--I'm done, this show is now dead to me.  A mercy killing, really, as some of you may recall that a couple weeks back I said I was now looking for an opportune moment to jump out, as I felt the quality level had really gone downhill and the show was just becoming soapy, pulpy melodrama.  (Interestingly, I see positive reviews for this episode by people who are apparently my polar opposites: they say they didn't like the show in its earlier incarnation when it was more understated, serious, and "pretentious", and that it's better when it just embraces lurid pulpiness.  Ehhh...no.)

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/12/the-affair-season-2-noah-novel

I don't necessarily agree with everything in this article, but thought some of our commentators on here would appreciate this writer's take on Season 2.

 

I was really enjoying that article until I got to this line:

 

"Her screams, the flames, and the downpour whipped the soundtrack into a Wagnerian froth, all of which made me laugh harder than anything since the lurid crosscutting climax of Requiem for a Dream. (Well, Borat was pretty funny, too)."

 

Whoaa...that crosscutting of the birth and the flames was laughably terribad.  But the crosscutting climax of Requiem for a Dream was awesome.  Completely different sides of the spectrum.  Hmph!

 

In any case, it was a surprise to me that Luisa was the daughter of the Butlers' housekeeper (what is her name anyway? Esmeralda? I can never make it out). You would have thought we'd have seen her around the house before, unless she was raised by relatives in Queens while her mom mothered the odious Butlers and their kin.

 

I didn't catch until this episode that it was the same person (which makes me feel vaguely racist), but she was seen around the Butler house.  Remember in S1E2, I think it was, when Noah was going to make some kind of espresso drink for Whitney with the Butlers' fancy machine, and Helen's mom jumped all over him because she thought he was going to break it?  She then instructed the housekeeper to do it instead.  The housekeeper asked Whitney if she wanted a latte or a cappuccino, holding the requisite cups for each; when Whitney responded that she wanted a macchiato, the housekeeper kind of looked at both the cups in her hand with befuddlement.

[Milburn Stone]

Thought this was one of the best episodes ever. It explored some really interesting emotional turf with Noah. I "got" him. I identified with him.

 

I'm clearly in the minority in not thinking he should be damned to eternal suffering just because he had an affair. And no, I never had an affair.

[grumpypanda]

I really enjoyed this episode. I didn't like the last two episodes. Episode 11 had that magic again and I think it had to do with being so much back in Montauk.

What I liked: that Allison is acting independently, that Allison went into a business partnership with Cole and they bought the Lobster Roll.

I'm glad that Allison and Cole are partners. I think he's the person she can trust most in the world, next to her mother. I don't care what Noah thinks. Since they are not married yet, he doesn't get a say. I also hope Allison is smart enough to put her half of the Lobster Roll in a trust for Joni.

I also like the scene with Helen's mother. I liked what she said about a little forgiveness going a long ways.

I also liked the scene with Noah and Max. It was rich with feelings and history. That's why you watch "The Affair". I also liked watching The Affair for the Montauk ambience.

It's interesting that the POVs was Cole and Noah, and not Allison. It would've been nice to see her POV also. She seems to have been marginalized quite a bit in the latter part of season two.

I really don't care who killed Scotty. I'm not going to waste time wondering who is the father of Joni. I'm just glad that they are now back in Montauk!

I strongly disagree, it doesn't matter if Alison and Noah are married, they are supposed to be partners and one partner shouldn't make a huge life altering decision without at least consulting the other partner first.

It might be Alison's money but Noah's money is paying for everything else right now so why does she get to do whatever she wants to with her money but he has to support her and the baby with his? Would it be fair if he sold the apartment and moved to France without talking to her first?

I'm all for Alison being independent but when you share your life with another person you can't do whatever you want to do when you want to do it, especially when there are four children involved

Edited December 17, 2015 by grumpypanda

[Quiche]

I strongly disagree, it doesn't matter if Alison and Noah are married, they are supposed to be partners and one partner shouldn't make a huge life altering decision without at least consulting the other partner first.

It might be Alison's money but Noah's money is paying for everything else right now so why does she get to do whatever she wants to with her money but he has to support her and the baby with his? Would it be fair if he sold the apartment and moved to France without talking to her first?

I'm all for Alison being independent but when you share your life with another person you can't do whatever you want to do when you want to do it, especially when there are four children involved

 

 

I get your point.  However, Allison had no choice over many things.  Such as Noah's career.  I think she has a right to invest her money wherever she pleases.

Where they live or where she lives is a matter they should discuss.

[briochetwist]

I get your point.  However, Allison had no choice over many things.  Such as Noah's career.  I think she has a right to invest her money wherever she pleases.

Where they live or where she lives is a matter they should discuss.

Allison had no choice over many things?  She chose to have an affair with a married man with four children who lived in New York.  She chose to leave her husband to be with him. She chose to accept his marriage proposal before either of them were divorced. She chose to sleep with Cole after being out of touch with Noah. She chose to let Noah believe that he's the father of the baby.  She chose to lie to Noah about going to school for 6 weeks while he struggled to write and had a nanny look after their child. She chose to go into business with her ex-husband without any discussion at all with Noah. She's completely in control of her life. She acts the perpetual victim, yet she's a wrecking ball who causes havoc for everyone else due to her lousy decisions. 

[Quiche]

Allison had no choice over many things?  She chose to have an affair with a married man with four children who lived in New York.  She chose to leave her husband to be with him. She chose to accept his marriage proposal before either of them were divorced. She chose to sleep with Cole after being out of touch with Noah. She chose to let Noah believe that he's the father of the baby.  She chose to lie to Noah about going to school for 6 weeks while he struggled to write and had a nanny look after their child. She chose to go into business with her ex-husband without any discussion at all with Noah. She's completely in control of her life. She acts the perpetual victim, yet she's a wrecking ball who causes havoc for everyone else due to her lousy decisions. 

 

And what about Noah's choices?

[grumpypanda]

And what about Noah's choices?

I think we can all agree that they have both made some terrible choices and I generally dislike Noah but right now he's making the choice to put Alison and his kids before his own desires (I'm guessing this will probably change though.)

Alison has more options than a lot of women. She's got money and an education. She's not a helpless victim. She didn't tell Noah about the restaurant until it was a done deal because she knew it was a stupid decision.

[tvviewer]

Alison certainly changes her mind a lot too. I wondered about the name Bailey; was it chosen because Alison bails on things? So far she's bailed on her marriage, her career, her desire to live in New York - what next? Noah? Joanie?

It has become a soapy melodrama but it's still a weird mix of great scenes with great characterisation and occasional terrific writing thrown in amongst all the soap and bad/inconsistent stuff. I still can't decide what to make of it all.

[Quiche]

And what about Noah's choices?

 

Since when does a parent, even a male parent, who puts his children's needs about his own is doing something remarkable?

We don't know yet who is the father of Allison's baby.  It could be Noah. 

 

I don't agree that investing in the Lobster Roll was a bad decision for Allison.  I would argue it was a great decision.  She has an enormous experience with the place and how to deal with customers.  She will probably be extremely successful.

[Catherinewriter]

I certainly find Noah to be a dick much of the time, but when I think of the break up of the two families, I give him much more credit than I do Allison. Noah was, for fourteen years, faithful to Helen (when as an attractive and excellent teacher, could have been sleeping his way through a dozen or more female students), a good father, and an all around good guy. He really f--ked up with the affair, but again, he's made really fine attempts to make it up with Allison , etc. She, on the other hand (and this is hard for me because I love the character and want her to find some contentment), has acted really selfishly throughout all the affair (except for the time when she said to Noah, :"Are we making a really big mistake?) So, That's my two cents in support of Noah, who is in fact a dick.

 

Any word on a third season?

[scrb]

It's renewed for third season.

 

And probably will keep getting renewed unless the ratings really plummet.

 

Noah was married more than 14 years right?  Whitney is like 18 or 19?

[GeminiDancer]

 

Noah was married more than 14 years right?  Whitney is like 18 or 19?

 

He was married for 20 years.

 

 

faithful to Helen (when as an attractive and excellent teacher, could have been sleeping his way through a dozen or more female students)

 

That would be very bad for Noah as he was at the very least a high school teacher at the time.

[Muffyn]

Thought this was one of the best episodes ever. It explored some really interesting emotional turf with Noah. I "got" him. I identified with him.

 

I'm clearly in the minority in not thinking he should be damned to eternal suffering just because he had an affair. And no, I never had an affair.

i don't think Noah should be damned to eternal hell fire for having an affair.  People have affairs for all sorts of reasons.  Noah met Alison and in his mind imagined her a "pure sex".  He was drawn to her and made some bad decisions from that point on.  Alison was also married and had an affair.  Both of them protested early on that this was not what they wanted and both of them willingly engaged in the affair.  Now that they've turned their lives upside down, they are doubling down by trying to turn the affair into a marriage, something that is not always so easy to do.  

 

By this point in the show, regardless of whether the affair is what brought them together, they have each been shown to be terrible people outside of that.  Noah has been very selfish and self-serving.  He is caught up in the fame surrounding the world's greatest novel, Descent, you know, that pulp sex-riddled trash that he spewed onto the page.  He is at times drinking to excess in public settings, chose to attempt to assault a critic from a college paper that dared to say his novel was garbage, tried to bed his publicist, accidentally ogled his daughter in a hot tub,. . . .   

 

In this episode Alison was shown to be just as selfish and self-serving.  She lied about dropping out of school, spending her days roaming the city rather than owning up to her decision.  She made a major financial decision that would potentially impact where they live without discussing it with Noah.  And prior to this episode, much like Noah, she has made a series of poorly considered decisions.  

 

So I don't damn either of them for having an affair.  The show, especially earlier in the run, seemed to be trying to give reasons for why these two people would abandon their marriages for each other and how a simple let's get together for the sex grew into a more complete relationship.  However, as the show has progressed, it has become more soapy, forgetting important plot points, throwing in unneeded contrivances and making the characters extremely unlikable in many ways.  Alison the non-communicative, self-harming victim and Noah the self-centered douche may well deserve each other.  Let's hope he doesn't follow the book and run her over with a car.  

[blixie]

 

he's made really fine attempts to make it up with Allison

 

Such as lying about his divorce decree, trying to fuck his publicist for months, resenting his new born child's nursery, fantasizing about fucking his way through Paris, and getting a boner looking at his daughter, lying his face off about all of that?

[Woody]

Thus the lyrics to the theme song.  I am convinced that Fiona Apple sings the song as the character Allison letting us all know what her primary role is in the whole series.  Making waves...

 

I have only one thing to do and that’s

be the wave that I am and then

sink back into the ocean

 

By the way, I am relatively new to the series and brand spanking new to these forums, so the theme song may have already been discussed in prior threads, not sure.  However, I am sure that I saw a few people comment that the theme song is getting on their nerves and such.  I felt the same way about it the first several times I heard it but it started growing on me.  Especially when I interpreted it the way I did above.

[bunnywithanaxe]

Interesting. I went through stages.

1. Cool song! Ok, who is who's daddy?

2. Any song you hear too many times in a row will grate on you.

3. This song ( and the opening credits) are so perfectly aligned with the tone of the show that I can't imagine the

Show without them.

And it has a whole " Yankee" feel, like I described elsewhere.

[briochetwist]

And what about Noah's choices?

Noah's choices suck too.  Too put it bluntly, they both suck.  They're both shitty people who are responsible for the shitty choices that they've made. 

[Constantinople]

It's renewed for third season.

 

And probably will keep getting renewed unless the ratings really plummet.

How many brothers does Cole have that can be vehicularly homicided?

[ScoobieDoobs]

I'd love for Cynthia to come back & have a session with Alison.  I mean seriously, they can show 10 billion Alison POV's & we still wouldn't know who the fuck she is, would we?  But I think Cynthia could draw some interesting stuff outta Alison.  Maybe?  Well, at least Cynthia would tell her to close her damn mouth & wipe the drool away, for shit's sake.  If Treem won't tell her to close her mouth, I'm sure Cynthia wouldn't be shy about asking her to.  Or at least Miranda wouldn't be & that's the same thing for me.

Edited December 17, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[Quiche]

Noah's choices suck too.  Too put it bluntly, they both suck.  They're both shitty people who are responsible for the shitty choices that they've made. 

 

It comes down to which characters you like.  I like Allison.  I'm happy for her for buying the Lobster Roll.  If you don't like her and you want to see her suffer, then you're not happy about it.

Has Noah begun his "Ascent"?

[Muffyn]

Has Noah begun his "Ascent"?

I think Noah is currently just swirling around the bowl.  

[right]

Thought this was one of the best episodes ever. It explored some really interesting emotional turf with Noah. I "got" him. I identified with him.

 

I'm clearly in the minority in not thinking he should be damned to eternal suffering just because he had an affair. And no, I never had an affair.

 

For me it isn't "just" that he had an affair, it's the post affair behavior that I judge Noah on.  Everyone is entitled to make a mistake or two, but when they don't learn from those mistakes or they simply blame someone else, I begin to view them negatively.  Noah and Alison could have handled their marriages ending without all of the lies and selfish behavior.  Noah had 4 kids that were caught in the middle and he barely cared at all how this would affect them, not to mention how devastating it was for Helen.  His complete lack of empathy for those he supposedly loved is why I wish misery on Noah.

[briochetwist]

His complete lack of empathy for those he supposedly loved is why I wish misery on Noah.

Ditto for Allison.  They both suck.

[CarolMK]

It seems to me that the writers had Season 1 pretty much set as to how they wanted to present it with all of the characters and their points of view. However, I've gotten the feeling that Season 2 has been more that the writers are making it up as they go along, based upon...what? Ratings? Audience reaction? It seemed like Season 1 flowed along evenly and made sense, Season 2 just doesn't make sense to me, no matter how hard I try to relate to it, it's just not adding up. I can't imagine what they're going to do with Season 3 and if they keep stringing along the courtroom story of whodunit. 

[Blakeston]

I don't agree that investing in the Lobster Roll was a bad decision for Allison.  I would argue it was a great decision.  She has an enormous experience with the place and how to deal with customers.  She will probably be extremely successful.

I'm not sure about her being extremely successful, considering that she hadn't seen Cole in ages when he showed up at the courthouse - things couldn't have gone as planned there.

 

There were a lot of potential pitfalls there, beyond going into business with your ex-spouse. Scotty, who's a freaking psycho, will become a partner in the business if he goes to rehab. Alison and Cole seemed to jump into it without thinking through issues like the huge amount of money it would take to renovate the place. And Alison doesn't have the ideal personality for running a restaurant.

 

Running a successful restaurant takes a good head for business, and we've never seen evidence of Alison having that. You have to be a tough manager and negotiator - and when anyone yells at Alison, she completely shuts down, to the point where she can't even speak. And you have to be willing to fight for your dream for a long time, even when it's grueling. Whereas Alison's plans seem to change every few days, and she quit her lifelong dream of becoming a doctor because a class was harder than she expected.

[loki567]

I'm still curious where the show's going to do with the third season. I originally figured the third season would be about the trial... and then the trial started this season. And from the finale previews, it looks like it might even end. So if we're caught up to the present and assuming we get some definite answers about Scotty's death and the baby's father, where does the show really go from here? It would good for the show to clear the decks, drop the mysteries, and the writers getting back to the things that they do reasonably well. 

[cardigirl]

I am truly enjoying the show, and feel it's been a great ride.  I like the mystery intertwined around the effects of the affair on everyone. I think some really great "truths" about love and marriage and affairs have been shown (and by 'truths,' I mean the patterns that are nearly identical in all marriages imploding and love affairs beginning.)   The acting is fantastic.  I don't know if the writers intended for people to dislike Noah so intensely, but honestly, the character was acting the way many men do when they break away from a long-term relationship/marriage. The entire world is judging them for doing something bad, so in defense, they hold onto it as the only choice they had.  Later on, when things simmer down, and people begin healing and moving on, the questioning of what exactly it was that they needed to break away from begins. Self-absorption is kind of key to chosing to 'blow up your family.'

 

If regret, true regret comes into play, I think that will be interesting to watch.  

I don't think, though, that these writers are interested in a morality play, and I really doubt that they would have the two original couples together at the end.  I think Noah will probably be alone (and not in jail).  

[SlackerInc]

I'm not sure about her being extremely successful, considering that she hadn't seen Cole in ages when he showed up at the courthouse - things couldn't have gone as planned there.

That's a great point, but I think this is most likely an example of what CarolMK talks about just above your comment: "making it up as they go along". I seriously doubt, when they filmed the scene you are referencing, that they had yet decided to have Alison and Cole go into business together--a decision that could only have happened when everyone in the writers room was drunk, or just desperate and running out of ideas. And I strongly suspect they will just ignore that going forward, and hope that not very many viewers remember it as well as you did.

Edited December 18, 2015 by SlackerInc

[nara]

I really enjoyed this episode because several of the things for which I had been hoping happened.

 

• Cole seems genuinely happy and stable--though I agree with some other posters that it's a little jarring to see him so cheerful after seeing him moody for so long.  I'm glad that he wanted to take Luisa to see his mother. He needs to make up with his family, IMO.
• I loved the return of the mothers.  I liked that Cherry went out and got a job, rather than moping about her misfortunes.  I was hoping that Cole would say that he's proud of her. Yes, it's bad that she's enabling Scotty, but she's like many loved ones of addicts, so although I think she's foolish, I can sympathize with her dilemma. I also liked seeing Helen's mom from Cole's perspective.  She seemed genuinely interested in doing something nice for Luisa.  Others seem to find that unbelievable, but I think it's normal to take an interest in someone she's seen grow up from a little girl to a smart young woman.  I did expect her to thank Cole for pointing a gun at Noah--but that might have been unrealistic.  She seems to have grown more than other characters on this show.  I hope that we see her and Helen reuinited.
• Luisa's comment about being glad that the ranch is gone--completely bitchy and uncalled for.  I like Luisa's effect on Cole, but I find her obnoxious at times.
• Loved the Max Noah convo.  I had complained a couple episodes ago that Max was becoming boring, and this was a good recovery for his character.  (After all, the actor did full frontal nudity for this role--he deserved some good scenes to show off his acting ability!) As a secret Max-Helen shipper even from Season 1 (Melen? Hax?), I was glad to see that his feelings were genuine. I also thought that Noah's reaction was normal too, though irrational.  I don't believe he has any interest in getting back together with Helen, but the fact that Helen could have had other options was clearly disconcerting.  I wouldn't be surprised if he recasts the entire situation as "I sensed that there was something going on between Helen and Max (even if it wasn't actual infidelity) and that was why I was unhappy and vulnerable to Alison."  I am a little surprised if this fight was enough to make Max testify against him--there's got to be more.

[Catherinewriter]

Blixie, point(s) taken. I was referring specifically to his behavior after Joni was born - taking lots of care of her and encouraging Alison in her not/schoolwork, taking time from his work to give her time to not/go to her not/classes, etc. But I agree with your points. Though his behavior after his best seller isn't so very different from that of a lot of men suddenly making good (and if you're a man, no offense)

 

However, I'm not sure you can call him a liar about the divorce; he simply doesn't tell her it was final. And why hasn't she asked, after all this time? That's a question.

 

Still, Alison is the person I identify with and Noah is a dick, but gradually changing, I think. 

Edited December 19, 2015 by Catherinewriter

[MamaMax]

I am interested to see if Oscar really is the truth-teller in this story.  I keep thinking about him telling us that everyone thinks Alison became damaged by Gabriel's death, but that she ALWAYS damaged/broken.  I think there may be more to know about her, and why she had the affair and why she's doing what she's doing now.

Edited December 20, 2015 by MamaMax

[Cosmocrush]

 

• Loved the Max Noah convo.  I had complained a couple episodes ago that Max was becoming boring, and this was a good recovery for his character.  (After all, the actor did full frontal nudity for this role--he deserved some good scenes to show off his acting ability!) As a secret Max-Helen shipper even from Season 1 (Melen? Hax?), I was glad to see that his feelings were genuine. I also thought that Noah's reaction was normal too, though irrational.  I don't believe he has any interest in getting back together with Helen, but the fact that Helen could have had other options was clearly disconcerting.  I wouldn't be surprised if he recasts the entire situation as "I sensed that there was something going on between Helen and Max (even if it wasn't actual infidelity) and that was why I was unhappy and vulnerable to Alison."  I am a little surprised if this fight was enough to make Max testify against him--there's got to be more.

 

Agreed, except I  didn't see this  as just a single fight; I saw it as the last straw for Max.   A realization that while he was friend to Noah, a good friend actually, all these years Noah wasn't much of a friend in return  - at least for the past couple of years.  

 

Max was heartbroken about Helen and Noah showing up blathering all about his problems with Allison, like he has been doing for over two years now, and "by the way,  Helen has a new boyfriend, blah blah blah me, blah blah, Me me me..."     I think that was more than Max could take.  He gave Noah a chance to console him, to be a friend when he confessed his feelings for Helen and Noah's reaction was all about himself.   After all that, I really don't blame Max for not keeping Noah's secrets. 

[nara]

Agreed, except I  didn't see this  as just a single fight; I saw it as the last straw for Max.   A realization that while he was friend to Noah, a good friend actually, all these years Noah wasn't much of a friend in return  - at least for the past couple of years.  

 

Max was heartbroken about Helen and Noah showing up blathering all about his problems with Allison, like he has been doing for over two years now, and "by the way,  Helen has a new boyfriend, blah blah blah me, blah blah, Me me me..."     I think that was more than Max could take.  He gave Noah a chance to console him, to be a friend when he confessed his feelings for Helen and Noah's reaction was all about himself.   After all that, I really don't blame Max for not keeping Noah's secrets.

Good points, but there's something about the last minute nature of his testimony that bugs me. And it suddenly occurs to me that Max may not have known of Helen's role in Noah's defense until the trial started. Could he be hurting Noah because he knows that it would hurt Helen?

[Cosmocrush]

Good points, but there's something about the last minute nature of his testimony that bugs me. And it suddenly occurs to me that Max may not have known of Helen's role in Noah's defense until the trial started. Could he be hurting Noah because he knows that it would hurt Helen?

Ohhhhh, I hadn't considered that.  Interesting.  

 

Do we know how much time passed between the fight with Noah and Max and the trial?  He couldn't be too much time because baby Joni was still in a stroller but Helen is still with Dr. Tinder. 

[glowbug]

I hate to defend Noah but in the Max situation I don't think he was out of line. It's never appropriate to date your friend's ex unless given express permission. If my husband and I divorced and I found out one of my friends was dating him that would be the end of that friendship. I don't care how great of a friend they had been. Noah has absolutely been a self centered in his friendship with Max but he had every right to be angry and unsympathetic when it came to Max's feelings and relationship with Helen.

Edited December 20, 2015 by glowbug

[JennyMominFL]

I hate to defend Noah but in the Max situation I don't think he was out of line. It's never appropriate to date your friend's ex unless given express permission. If my husband and I divorced and I found out one of my friends was dating him that would be the end of that friendship. I don't care how great of a friend they had been. Noah has absolutely been a self centered in his friendship with Max but he had every right to be angry and unsympathetic when it came to Max's feelings and relationship with Helen.

See,I don't view it like this. I don't care if my exes date my friends. Especially If I am the dumper

[Former Nun]

So...let's say that I've been dumped.  I have a job, four kids, and I'm in my 40s.  My husband leaves for some younger Sex Machine he cannot resist.  A charming and very successful friend I've known most of my life is willing to bring a little fun, lust, and love in my life.  Oh, and my kids like him.  I'm supposed to be loyal to the asshole who turned my life upside down...and not try what life put right in front of me?  Sorry, Charlie.

[Anela]

I think Whitney did it, because I can't see him protecting anyone else. Unless Scotty committed suicide, by walking in front of the car.