S02.E08: 208

[HumblePi]

So can someone help me out here. I have been watching the Season 2 eps in real time and I just recently started trying to catch up on Season 1. I watched the pilot the other day, and during the Lockhart family dinner scene there were a couple of small children sitting at the table. Whose kids are these? Have they just been retconned out of the story?

I just re-watched the pilot because I had forgotten about the spare kids in that first episode. It appeared to be a Lockhart family dinner with a few extra kids there. I think there were two girls and a boy around age who looked around eight years old. I have a feeling that these children were forgotten in the story line because it would have conflicted with the theme of the 'Lockhart curse'. The writers must have deep-sixed those kids in the hopes that nobody would remember them when the time came anyway.  And, we didn't!

[RedInk]

 

This was a meh episode for me. I felt they repeated the formula of "Cole still loves Allison" with a "Helen still loves Noah" POV and while I think she does still have feelings for him, of course, the anger has been so present for her (in any POV there is--hers, Noah's, Alison's etc.), that I find it a lot harder to buy that suddenly she's all respectful and admiring of what a great guy he is. I couldn't quite reconcile it. 

 

You know, you're right about this. I said something upthread about Helen seeing the best in Noah as indicative of real love, but I didn't mean to imply that I hope Helen's story arc involves pining away or that they are back together in the present. Helen's scenes with Noah were very well done - we've probably all been in that sweet, sad, nostalgic place with an ex - but it did seem a little bit early for that acceptance and level of comfort to set in. And it's not really a natural progression from where she was in the last episode. Let's put this acrimony behind us for the kids and our own sanity doesn't equal let's be good, supportive friends. Or it shouldn't yet; she's still in so much pain. The gut-punch scene for me was when Noah pointed from himself to her, and she initially seemed to think it was a "you and me" gesture...but he just wanted his hat back.

 

Noah's POV was very much in character. Self-loathing, insensitive, unable to empathize. Helen was strong and doing just fine. Why shouldn't she be happy for his success? Why wouldn't she like to hear him read a passage at his book reading about the day he left her? 

Edited November 23, 2015 by RedInk

[Sheenieb]

 

Err... that's a little odd. I am a native NYer, and we NEVER refer to Manhattan as "New York." It's just "The City." New York to us = the five boroughs.

 

Witney would have said "I'm going to move to the city," not "move to New York." That part took me right out of the scene and I realized that the writers got this wrong. Witney knows she already lives in NY! I've never once in my entire life heard a NYer say "New York" to other people from the city.

 

Exactly. When she said that, I was like, girl, what are you talking about? You're already IN New York. Clearly, the writers aren't native NY'ers.

 

Helen may have been slightly rebellious in her youth, but it didn't sound as if she was a disrespectful asshole like Whitney, so Noah can miss me with that comparison. Of course it's easy to take a year off from college and pretend to be independent at 18 when you come from family money. Once she gets bored, she can always rely on the Butler millions. If Whitney scoffed at dorm living, imagine her slumming it in a model apartment.

[nara]

I'm really starting to think that something is wrong with Helen in the present day scenes.  I thought Whitney's comment about how Helen only has 5-6 good years left was possible foreshadowing, and Helen looked awfully pale and drawn, especially at the gym.  If she's sick/dying that would explain her desperate need to get Noah off at any cost, even by alienating him with the whole baby DNA swipe.  I assumed that's why she was so upset when she handed over the pacifier; she knows that she will lose Noah forever, even as a friend, through that act but she's desperate.

 

I hadn't thought of that.  If she's sick, that would definitely explain things.  I hope she doesn't end up sacrificing herself on the grounds that she will be dead soon anyway.

 

Of course Whitney wants to be a model. The girl is nothing but bone; the times Ive seen her in summer clothes . In the previous season, was there any hints that she had a eating disorder?

 

They thought she was bulimic because she was vomiting, and they confronted her, but she was actually pregnant.

 

 You know, you're right about this. I said something upthread about Helen seeing the best in Noah as indicative of real love, but I didn't mean to imply that I hope Helen's story arc involves pining away or that they are back together in the present. Helen's scenes with Noah were very well done - we've probably all been in that sweet, sad, nostalgic place with an ex - but it did seem a little bit early for that acceptance and level of comfort to set in. And it's not really a natural progression from where she was in the last episode. Let's put this acrimony behind us for the kids and our own sanity doesn't equal let's be good, supportive friends. Or it shouldn't yet; she's still in so much pain. The gut-punch scene for me was when Noah pointed from himself to her, and she initially seemed to think it was a "you and me" gesture...but he just wanted his hat back.

 

Noah's POV was very much in character. Self-loathing, insensitive, unable to empathize. Helen was strong and doing just fine. Why shouldn't she be happy for his success? Why wouldn't she like to hear him read a passage at his book reading about the day he left her? 

 

I don't think Helen has truly accepted it, but she's putting on a brave face.  She's resentful of how much Whitney adores her dad, despite the damage he's caused, and she was annoyed that he hadn't bothered to check on the college tour schedule.  She didn't want to go to the reading, but her curiosity got the most of her.  (I doubt she's read the whole book.)  Once she heard Noah reading, it put her in a sentimental place for the rest of the evening.  I bet his writing was one of things that attracted her to him in the first place.  That, coupled with being at the place where they met and fell in love, caused her to be more accepting--for the evening.  It remains to be seen how she will act during their next meeting.

 

That hat exchange was so sad.  I also thought her was gesturing to the two of them.  

 

I think Whitney would really benefit from the reality check of working as a model.  1) She was offended by the poster in the dorm room?  Well, honey, try POSING for that poster!  2) He family has indulged her in so many ways.  As a model, she will be ordered around and if she pitches a fit and doesn't do what she's asked, they will simply replace her with another beautiful woman. 

[racked]

Err... that's a little odd. I am a native NYer, and we NEVER refer to Manhattan as "New York." It's just "The City." New York to us = the five boroughs. 

 

Witney would have said "I'm going to move to the city," not "move to New York." That part took me right out of the scene and I realized that the writers got this wrong. Witney knows she already lives in NY! I've never once in my entire life heard a NYer say "New York" to other people from the city.

Brooklyn native here and yeah, we just call it the city. Friends in the Bronx say "downtown" though. I think this was an easy case of the writers wanting the rest of the viewers who may not be aware of NYC colloquialisms to understand she meant Manhattan.

In thinking more about the episode, what really gets me is how in Helen's POV, she makes all these self-realizations that aren't even possible in Noah's POV. She is there solely to move HIS story along, as is everyone else. He only sees them completely in relation to his own story. He doesn't seem to really care about anyone else's story. I don't find that level of narcissism in the other characters, not to that degree.

I also think the student critic was probably not that much of an asshole, and Noah remembers it that way because he hyperfocuses on any criticism.

[DarkRaichu]

Noah focusing on the critics seemed to be consistent with a few actors I knew.  They would focus on 1 criticism despite ton and tons of accolade they received.

 

Lol Noah made a move on Eden was just expected given how many women he hit on during his first separation from Helen.  Too easy :D

He did wait a couple of months tough, which was probably like an eternity in Noah's mind.

Noah continuing indifference about the upcoming baby was also expected.  He went on and on about his desk lol!

 

Helen's "wait this is not my job anymore" was a good one.

 

Was this the first time Helen's clothes matched between POVs?  

[Constantinople]

I also thought that I heard Noah and Helen mention living in Harlem when they were getting their drunk on. It sounded as though Harlem was where they lived at the start of their marriage.

 

 

Harlem is where the fictional characters in Noah's book live. I don't think they ever really lived there.

In Noah's POV, when they're at the restaurant, either Noah or Helen says s/he's sorry "For making you leave Harlem".

Given Noah's utter lack of imagination -- he barely bothers to rename Whitney, "through the doorway...hung the portrait she'd developed of Whitman as a baby" -- I believe Noah and Helen lived there.

To be fair, there is some fiction in Noah's book because in the book he suggests his characters purchased the brownstone with a loan from the female character's parents. But it was actually Helen's trust that purchased the brownstone. So he did embellish a little.

[nara]

Forgot to mention in earlier posts...In Helen's POV, I interpreted Noah's reading of that particular passage to be almost an apology to Helen. He had seen her before the reading started and selected a passage that 1) described that he had been in love with her and their entire life together was not a sham, and 2) it had been a difficult process to leave her (all the 5,4,3,2,1 step references). In Noah's POV, the choice of that passage was more accidental, though he did avoid the sex scene that might upset her--or was it more for his comfort?

I wonder how much of Helen's POV is colored by a desire for her not to have been wrong (and her parents being right) about loving and marrying Noah from the start. If she sees him completely as a jerk, then she has to blame herself for not seeing that from the start. If he is somewhat thoughtful of her (even in small ways), than it was circumstances and not bad judgment that led her to her current situation.

[RedInk]

I don't think Helen has truly accepted it, but she's putting on a brave face.  She's resentful of how much Whitney adores her dad, despite the damage he's caused, and she was annoyed that he hadn't bothered to check on the college tour schedule.  She didn't want to go to the reading, but her curiosity got the most of her.  (I doubt she's read the whole book.)  Once she heard Noah reading, it put her in a sentimental place for the rest of the evening.  I bet his writing was one of things that attracted her to him in the first place.  That, coupled with being at the place where they met and fell in love, caused her to be more accepting--for the evening.  It remains to be seen how she will act during their next meeting.

Oh, agreed that she's putting on a brave face. I'm having a hard time expressing my uneasiness with those scenes, but I meant that it doesn't seem like she could even get to that place yet. Having drinks together, casually talking about how proud she is of him...I would think that would take more time. Their earlier scenes with Whitney - civil, but formal - were much more in keeping with what I would expect from Helen. And did she mention that Allison was pregnant in both narratives, or only In Noah's? I was hoping we would get to see the scene when she learns that Noah and Allison are expecting.

 

Constantinople, I missed the Whitney/Whitman connection. I thought he said something about Walt Whitman! Why are people even bothering to ask if this is fiction or a memoir? He's not taking even the most basic steps to cover anything up. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by RedInk

[truthaboutluv]

Oy, Gottlief's narrative of his theory of the supposed love affair between Scotty & Alison was so off-base & downright dumb

 

I don't know. He was just trying to come up with a theory that would get his client off that fit with the information they have. Sure we know nothing ever happened with Scotty and Alison but faced with an argument at Cole's wedding that Alison clearly didn't want anyone to know about, Oscar saying Scotty was saying during the argument "that's our baby", Scotty's repeated calls to Alison that she wouldn't return, I didn't think the theory was that far fetched. And he did tell Helen it was just a theory that wasn't really solid. I can't see anyone tying Cole to this and realizing that's who Alison slept with, with the information Gottlief and his assistant has. 

 

Noah and Alison split up since they aren't married anyway and it's proven that Cole is the father of her baby. Alison and Cole move back in together in Montauk with their son who they never bring swimming until he's 18.

 

I'm pretty sure it's been stated that Alison and Noah are married in present day. Alison referred to herself as Noah's wife when talking to the lawyer and I'm pretty she was referred to as Mrs. Soloway at some point. Also, the baby is a girl. That was confirmed when Alison told Cole, "she must like you..." when the baby responded well to him in the court house. 

 

I watched the pilot the other day, and during the Lockhart family dinner scene there were a couple of small children sitting at the table. Whose kids are these? Have they just been retconned out of the story?

 

Probably typical pilot stuff. There is a reason most Pilots are clunky at times (not all of course). The writers are sometimes still working through what works and what doesn't. People have had siblings, children, etc. disappear from a Pilot to the rest of the series. 

 

I'm annoyed that Helen can't seem to move on from Noah. It's ridiculous that she's even involved in his defense. I get not wanting the father of your children in jail by its not her place to consult with his attorney. By the time the trial takes place it's nearly three years since the affair began so Helen should have moved on with her life by now.

 

I still think this all ties back to Witney being the one who ran down Scotty. 

 

Showtime may have different plans, but ... I think it's unlikely it won't get another season. The Globes wins for it S1 will carry a great deal of weight since SHO never gets any recognition at those things and they don't have a particularly strong development slate IMO.

 

Also,  I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure the ratings have been pretty good. 

 

3. He whines that he didn't win the award because he's a white man.

 

I swear I was laughing along with Helen at that delusional rant from Noah. Noah is really the gift that just keeps on giving. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[grumpypanda]

In Noah's POV, when they're at the restaurant, either Noah or Helen says s/he's sorry "For making you leave Harlem".

Given Noah's utter lack of imagination -- he barely bothers to rename Whitney, "through the doorway...hung the portrait she'd developed of Whitman as a baby" -- I believe Noah and Helen lived there.

To be fair, there is some fiction in Noah's book because in the book he suggests his characters purchased the brownstone with a loan from the female character's parents. But it was actually Helen's trust that purchased the brownstone. So he did embellish a little.

Perhaps I was confused about the Harlem reference. I didn't even make the Whitman/Whitney connection, I thought he was talking about about Walt Whitman so apparently I'm not paying close enough attention. Anyway, maybe Helen is Ellen in the book and Alison is Alicia.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Err... that's a little odd. I am a native NYer, and we NEVER refer to Manhattan as "New York." It's just "The City." New York to us = the five boroughs. 

 

Witney would have said "I'm going to move to the city," not "move to New York." That part took me right out of the scene and I realized that the writers got this wrong. Witney knows she already lives in NY! I've never once in my entire life heard a NYer say "New York" to other people from the city.

 

ITA with this.  Made me wince when Whitney said this, and thought it was a blaring error on the part of the writers.  I grew up on Long Island.  Manhattan was always "the city" to me.  Anybody/everybody that I've ever known in the tri-state area -- whether in the boroughs or Jersey or Connecticut always referred to Manhattan as "the city" too.

 

But my mom, who grew up in Brooklyn, but now lives in Westchester, said she's referred to Manhattan as both "the city" & as New York.  So both references are used.

[Adultosaurus]

I don't think "go to New York" was as much of a mistake as it was an attempt to make it understood by non-New Yorkers.

[racked]

Was this the first time Helen's clothes matched between POVs?

Weren't her clothes different? She was wearing that sleeveless mock turtleneck and had her hair half up compared to the grey looking shirt and her hair down in her own POV? Like Allison, she always looks worse and more dowdy in her own POVs than how other people see her.

[meep.meep]

I just re-watched the pilot because I had forgotten about the spare kids in that first episode. It appeared to be a Lockhart family dinner with a few extra kids there. I think there were two girls and a boy around age who looked around eight years old. I have a feeling that these children were forgotten in the story line because it would have conflicted with the theme of the 'Lockhart curse'. The writers must have deep-sixed those kids in the hopes that nobody would remember them when the time came anyway.  And, we didn't!

 

Or maybe they were kids from the sister-in-law's side of the family.  

 

I liked this episode and I usually don't like the ones with Helen.

 

My problem with the lawyer is that he was Helen's divorce attorney.  If I was accused of murder, I'd want someone who specialized in that, not someone really good at looking for hidden assets.

[DarkRaichu]

Weren't her clothes different? She was wearing that sleeveless mock turtleneck and had her hair half up compared to the grey looking shirt and her hair down in her own POV? Like Allison, she always looks worse and more dowdy in her own POVs than how other people see her.

I thought she was wearing the same light brown thing when she was with Noah in college hangout/bar in both her and Noah's POVs?  I obviously am a male and did not pay that much attention :D

Edited November 23, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[ScoobieDoobs]

I don't think "go to New York" was as much of a mistake as it was an attempt to make it understood by non-New Yorkers.

 

Maybe.  And yet, if Whitney had said she was moving to Manhattan, while correct, it would have sounded stilted and off to me.  

 

Just asked my teen nieces & nephews (who live in Jersey) what they say when they're heading to Manhattan.  They all said they're going into "the city".  That's what we said 30 years ago & that's what the kids are still saying.  NY'ers innately know this.  Is Treem from LA?

[Constantinople]

I don't think "go to New York" was as much of a mistake as it was an attempt to make it understood by non-New Yorkers.

 

As a non-New Yorker, Whitney's statement sounded really odd.  Moreover, it was unnecessary since she could have just said she wanted to moved out and get her own apartment.

[Empress1]

I don't think "go to New York" was as much of a mistake as it was an attempt to make it understood by non-New Yorkers.

It was just such a clunky line. No one who lives within commuting distance of any of the five boroughs says this. I lived in Manhattan for 10 years and one side of my family is in Brooklyn, and my Brooklyn relatives either say "the city" or will just name the location they're going to if they're talking about a specific place ("the restaurant on 74th and Amsterdam" or whatever). Whitney would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better off living at either of her parents' homes if they'll have her (plenty of aspiring fill-in-the-blanks live in Brooklyn) if she really wants to pursue modeling, because she is going to get her feelings hurt very quickly if she has to live basically anywhere in NYC on what someone with a high school education can expect to make. She could have just said she wanted to be a model and talked about the skeevy photographer she met, and then when Helen said she wasn't going to pay for it, Whitney could have said "I'll get an apartment!" or whatever. (Also, Whitney's about to graduate from high school and doesn't know her own Social Security number? Jesus.)

 

I did like them delving into Whitney's academic shortcomings; while I don't think Whitney is stupid, I also don't think she's studious or naturally gifted.

 

Called something happening between Eden and Noah. It did strike me that she took a while to stop it - I'd think the "I don't mix business with pleasure" comment would happen before shirts came off, but whatever, at least she stopped it. Noah looked a straight fool trying to fight a college student, although that kid was pretentious as hell. "Perhaps you've heard of me?"

 

I liked Helen's scenes with Noah because it was the first time I could see affection between them, and all their shared history. There was also a moment where I felt really sorry for Helen - not the point where Whitney says she's not going to be like Helen and live off her parents for the rest of her life, but when Noah tells the story of how she donated blood twice a week (I don't think that's medically possible?) to raise money to go somewhere and then she didn't go because her parents wouldn't let her. Like, that's the perfect time to go off and do your own thing - 21/22, raised the money yourself - and to have her parents shut that down, to have her LET her parents shut that down ... that was such a bummer.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Empress1

[MamaMax]

Ernest Schiffbaum is awesome.

 

That is all.

Noah Tannenbaum, you mean?

 

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/06wG4_vPE-8/maxresdefault.jpg

[LibertarianSlut]

Weighing in as a born-and-bred New Yorker (raised on Long Island, worked in city):

I'm not going to touch on moving to "New York" vs "Manhattan" vs "the city," because that's well trodden territory and I think this board got it cleared up.

But how about Whitney asking her mom, when they were at Williams, if she could "just go back to Brooklyn?" No, uh-uh, never, absolutely not would be said by a native Brooklynite. She would have asked if she could just go home, as in, "Mom, can't I just go home to sleep?" Like anyone else in America. Maybe--and I'll allow this since they were in Massachusetts at the time--she would have said, "can't we just go back to New York?" But she never would have said "Brooklyn." That was very contrived. It was like a character from Desperate Housewives asking if they could just go back to Wisteria Lane. I felt like the writers either had no idea how to write New York patois (using that word ironically), or they were patronizingly reminding us where everyone lived, so that the poor little viewer wouldn't get confused.

In somewhat of a contrast, the references to "Harlem" read true to me. From my experience, New Yorkers treat anywhere above 125th street as different from Manhattan proper, even though it's all Manhattan. That's probably because the demographics of northern Manhattan, though rapidly changing, are more similar to the Bronx, which is just across the river. This was even more true twenty-five years ago, which is when this reference originated from Noah.

I do not buy the argument that the writers only wrote "New York" and "Brooklyn" this way so that non-native New Yorkers would understand it. This is not a show that is supposed to spoon-feed its viewers. We're left to constantly make assumptions and fill in the blanks simply as a product of the format of the show. I think viewers are intelligent enough to translate basic New York slang. Just as no one had to explain what "gabagou" or a "gumar" was when the Sopranos were on. Or any of the prison terms in "Orange is the New Black." The viewer doesn't have to be a genius to catch on. And if we still don't get it, that's why God gave us the Internet. Just, whatever you do, don't dumb down the dialogue. Just don't.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Called something happening between Eden and Noah. It did strike me that she took a while to stop it - I'd think the "I don't mix business with pleasure" comment would happen before shirts came off, but whatever, at least he stopped it. Noah looked a straight fool trying to fight a college student, although that kid was pretentious as hell. "Perhaps you've heard of me?"

 

I called it too. And yet, I & others were slammed (& slammed hard) by many who thought it would never happen. OK then, so words were eaten (but not by me). Anyhoo, it's important to keep in mind this is slimeball Noah's POV. Maybe this was merely his fantasy of easily banging the hot PR chick, but she shut it down. The reality could have been she turned Noah down quickly & her clothes were never taken off. That's my bet on what happened & I haven't had to eat any of my words on this show -- er, yet.

 

 

But how about Whitney asking her mom, when they were at Williams, if she could "just go back to Brooklyn?" No, uh-uh, never, absolutely not would be said by a native Brooklynite. She would have asked if she could just go home, as in, "Mom, can't I just go home to sleep?" Like anyone else in America. Maybe--and I'll allow this since they were in Massachusetts at the time--she would have said, "can't we just go back to New York?" But she never would have said "Brooklyn." That was very contrived. It was like a character from Desperate Housewives asking if they could just go back to Wisteria Lane. I felt like the writers either had no idea how to write New York patois (using that word ironically), or they were patronizingly reminding us where everyone lived, so that the poor little viewer wouldn't get confused.

 

I hadn't noticed this, but it's a great point & it's something only NY'ers would innately know & possibly recognize as ringing false & clunky. I asked above if Treem is from LA, but she has a band of writers -- are none of them from NY? It does affect the quality of the writing, if this is the case.

[Empress1]

In somewhat of a contrast, the references to "Harlem" read true to me. From my experience, New Yorkers treat anywhere above 125th street as different from Manhattan proper, even though it's all Manhattan. That's probably because the demographics of northern Manhattan, though rapidly changing, are more similar to the Bronx, which is just across the river. This was even more true twenty-five years ago, which is when this reference originated from Noah.

Agreed. I've also found that people who are from Harlem will say they're from Harlem, rather than "I'm from New York." (My mother will say she's from Brooklyn and then give the neighborhood if she's asked for more details.)

[nara]

I gotta say, I love this show--so much to analyze!  Just watched it again while paying my bills and I saw stuff I hadn't noticed before.

 

In Helen's POV, Eden refers to her as Noah's wife while looking at the calendar on her phone, even though Helen had just referred to herself as his ex-wife. Combine this with Alison's Thanksgiving POV in which Eden was rude to her, and I think we may have a real picture of what Eden thinks of Noah leaving Helen for Alison.

 

In Noah's POV, he asks Helen if she liked the book.  We get so many jerk moments from Noah in his own POVs--I thought this was a nice, vulnerable moment. Also, Helen is the only one who laughs at him without him getting pissed off.  I think that more than his actual marriage, Noah's biggest loss due to his affair is the loss of his best friend.  Max is there, but Helen knows him better and plays the role of his conscience.  His entire recollection of the restaurant scene could almost be an inner monologue, with Helen as his conscience. 

 

Alison was looking very blonde in the Skype session.  Is this symbolic of the lighter Alison due to letting go of the darkness and enjoying her pregnancy or just poor color fidelity of the video?  IIRC in the "future" she is back to her dark hair.  

[right]

There was one positive about Noah in his POV.  He actually had a flash of empathy for Helen when he changed his reading from "sexy time" with Allison to describing the loss of his wife and family home.  I am choosing to believe he did this out of concern for Helen and not to make things easier on him.  It had to be in the back of his mind that sexy talk might turn on one of the "hotties" in the audience.  So, now I think the score for Noah is 1 - non-selfish vs. 378 - selfish.

[panthergirl13]

 I grew up on Long Island.  

You mean "the Island."  ;-)

[lucky.b]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a reference to Whitney at all, but indeed to Walt Whitman or I thought it was some sort of portrait ... something along those lines. But had nothing to do with Whitney, which is in keeping with her referencing to Cole that she isn't in the book at all. She would have caught it if it were something as simple as just changing a few letters of her name.

Per the Red Cross, you can only donate whole blood every 8 wks/56 days, so Helen may have donated *plasma* a few times a week - which I know from a family member who donated a few times a week recently, that can be done - but she certainly didn't donate blood.

My thought on the hat was that perhaps Alison gave Noah the hat & that's why he asked for it back. She might notice it missing & wonder where it went. Although she's so obtuse, combined with pregnancy brain, that if that were indeed the case, she may never have noticed. Most likely it was just Noah being his usual ass-clown self, but that was what came to mind for me: he didn't want his "paramour" to notice a missing gift.

I'm from the South, it is much easier to just say back home & over yonder for locations ;)

[Anne Elk]

Thanks, everybody, for the info on the disappearing Lockhart kids! I'm sure I wouldn't have noticed it if it weren't for the weird convoluted way I am watching the episodes. And I'm not sorry they are gone. The last thing this show needs is more obnoxious children.

 

I loved Wild and Crazy Drunk Helen from Noah's POV. I'd go out for a beer with her. She always seems so morose in her POV, it was nice to see her differently.

 

Funny how both Helen and Alison see themselves as passive and riddled with doubts and insecurities, but when Noah sees them they are confident and verging on pushy. I think Noah really does believe a lot of his ridiculous rant about how hard it is to be a white man, specifically Noah Solloway, in 2015. Look how he's besieged by aggressive women! Look how those uppity minority college kids misquote from his masterpiece! It's everybody's fault except his! Quite a contrast with Cole, even though we're apparently supposed to think Cole is some kind of unreflective brute. Although I really think Luisa shouldn't have forgiven him.

[nara]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a reference to Whitney at all, but indeed to Walt Whitman or I thought it was some sort of portrait ... something along those lines. But had nothing to do with Whitney, which is in keeping with her referencing to Cole that she isn't in the book at all. She would have caught it if

it were something as simple as just changing a few letters of her name.

It's definitely a reference to Whitney. He calls her Whitman in the book--although I think Britney would have been a better name for the Whitney-based character.  He says that there is a portrait of that his wife developed of "Whitman" as a baby during a winter they spent living in Harlem when their pipes froze.  No matter how old Whitney thinks her mother is, Helen is not old enough to have taken a picture of Walt Whitman as a baby!  ;)

[Ellaria]

Let me get this out of the way: his book is horrible.

 

I thought there was something sad and touching in the scenes between Helen and Noah (in both POVs). For a few hours, they were able to put the acrimony and bitterness aside. Not surprised to see tenderness between them undoubtedly due to their nostalgic trip to the past.

 

And yet, Noah is still Noah. He asks Helen to return his hat after she says that she is walking back to the hotel. He gets drunk and takes a swing at a pompous critic. And then he comes on to Eden and is "rejected." He has no interest in the baby's nursery.

 

Noah's POV was very much in character. Self-loathing, insensitive, unable to empathize. Helen was strong and doing just fine. Why shouldn't she be happy for his success? Why wouldn't she like to hear him read a passage at his book reading about the day he left her? 

 

Yes, this episode emphasized his self-loathing and insecurity. I think that he is starting to unravel. I'm not sure that Noah knows what he wants or wants what he has at the moment.

 

The progression of the murder story line is confusing me and not in a good way. Helen has turned into a character from "Law & Order." She familiarizes herself with evidentiary standards and goes hunting for DNA…all in an attempt to keep Noah out of jail. Does she even question whether or not he is guilty? It is curious that we see more scenes between Gottlief and Helen than Gottlief and his client, Noah. Lawyer extraordinaire needs someone other than Helen to get the baby's DNA and conduct part of his investigation. Not surprising that he is looking to offer up Alison has having motive to kill Scotty. Can't wait to see his new theory when results of the DNA test come in. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[CleoCaesar]

"MILLENIALS, WHAT DOES 'FOMO' MEAN?!!"   Drunk Helen was the best. This was easily the episode where she was just plain likeable.

 

Calling Manhattan "New York" was so stupid it took me right out of the scene. Sincerely, Someone Who Actually Lives in Manhattan and calls it "Manhattan."

 

It was hilariously obvious how little interest Noah has in this baby. Yeah, princess, your desk is in the hall. Don't sulk about it.

[RedInk]

Moved to speculation

Edited November 24, 2015 by RedInk

[ScoobieDoobs]

Let me get this out of the way: his book is horrible.

 

I thought it was pretty hilarious & so ironic that the student critic (at least from the headline shown) called the book porn.  I just read something that millennials are supposedly extremely conservative sexually.  Hmmmm.  So who's reading Noah's porno book, with Alison as Pam Anderson?  Looked like a lot of millennials in the audience for the reading.  Color me confused.  Well, anyhoo,  I give the student critic credit for being extremely calm & articulate in what would be a tense situation for most people.  And the guy sure was good at ducking a punch.  OK, it was from drunk loser Noah, but still, good reflexes, dude.

[lucky.b]

It's definitely a reference to Whitney. He calls her Whitman in the book--although I think Britney would have been a better name for the Whitney-based character.  He says that there is a portrait of that his wife developed of "Whitman" as a baby during a winter they spent living in Harlem when their pipes froze.  No matter how old Whitney thinks her mother is, Helen is not old enough to have taken a picture of Walt Whitman as a baby!  ;)

 

I found a transcript of the episode and yep, absolutely right. I didn't catch the developed part and just the portrait of Whitman :) What's often funny to me is how we are all watching a show about these character's memory and perception of events and then we all come here and discuss them ... bringing our memory and perception of the show. Sometimes we don't remember the exact same things even though we all watched the exact same show. I rarely post because I'm so shy about doing so & mostly because I'm afraid I will remember something dead wrong LOL 

[lovinbob]

Weighing in as a born-and-bred New Yorker (raised on Long Island, worked in city):

I'm not going to touch on moving to "New York" vs "Manhattan" vs "the city," because that's well trodden territory and I think this board got it cleared up.

But how about Whitney asking her mom, when they were at Williams, if she could "just go back to Brooklyn?" No, uh-uh, never, absolutely not would be said by a native Brooklynite. She would have asked if she could just go home, as in, "Mom, can't I just go home to sleep?" Like anyone else in America. Maybe--and I'll allow this since they were in Massachusetts at the time--she would have said, "can't we just go back to New York?" But she never would have said "Brooklyn." That was very contrived. It was like a character from Desperate Housewives asking if they could just go back to Wisteria Lane. I felt like the writers either had no idea how to write New York patois (using that word ironically), or they were patronizingly reminding us where everyone lived, so that the poor little viewer wouldn't get confused.

Also raised on the Island, lived in Brooklyn for years, now living in Manhattan. I don't agree a kid wouldn't say, "Go back to Brooklyn." Why not? My friends who live in Brooklyn always name-check the borough. I think Brooklynites take pride in living there and NOT living in Manhattan (or on LI or in Jersey).

 

Completely agree with the weirdness of moving to New York. That made no sense. And I was also thrown off by the townie setting, which is right for Williams, but confusing after they showed the establishing shot of the big neo-Gothic campus building -- which was actually Keating Hall at Fordham University in the Bronx. My alma mater :) (Clearly not important to the episode -- just fun to see.)

Edited November 24, 2015 by lovinbob

[nara]

I found a transcript of the episode and yep, absolutely right. I didn't catch the developed part and just the portrait of Whitman :) What's often funny to me is how we are all watching a show about these character's memory and perception of events and then we all come here and discuss them ... bringing our memory and perception of the show. Sometimes we don't remember the exact same things even though we all watched the exact same show. I rarely post because I'm so shy about doing so & mostly because I'm afraid I will remember something dead wrong LOL 

 

I use closed captioning when I cannot quite make out the words.  (Especially useful for Outlander, with the Scottish accents!)

You are absolutely right on regarding the different perception of events.  Passionate debates happen in most of the forums in which I participate because we each see things differently.  I made a post upthread and then subsequently realized I had mis-remembered the events--not in a major way, but still enough to prove the point made by the show.

[Constantinople]

Another douchebag Noah moment from this episode

 

He's actually upset and pouty when he realizes the woman in lobby isn't reading Descent but The Kite Runner.

 

What a baby.

[bunnywithanaxe]

Noah just sucks. If I see him give that goggle eyed "Who, me?" look again when a woman is expressing perfectly valid anger at him, I may wind up needing to replace my TV.

 

Whitney, on the other hand.. She's growing on me. Well, the character's a little shit, but the actress is killing it. Also, I thought  it was cute how her mask sort of slipped when she was attacking Moira Tierney with photos. They kept character, but at the same time, they looked like they were having fun with that scene. To the point that I wondered if it was ad lib.

Edited November 24, 2015 by bunnywithanaxe

[Lemons]

Also raised on the Island, lived in Brooklyn for years, now living in Manhattan. I don't agree a kid wouldn't say, "Go back to Brooklyn." Why not? .)

I didn't think it was odd for a kid to mention where they live. I can totally hear a whining teen say "Let's go back to Boston, or Let's go back to Atlanta, or wherever they live.

I wish more people would understand that not every 18 year old should go away for college. It's not for everyone. Noah had a good idea with taking a deferment. I know a lot of teens and 20 something's being supported by parents so that they can pursue the arts in NYC. Of course modeling would be a tough business, no real training can prepare you.

[LibertarianSlut]

Also raised on the Island, lived in Brooklyn for years, now living in Manhattan. I don't agree a kid wouldn't say, "Go back to Brooklyn." Why not? My friends who live in Brooklyn always name-check the borough. I think Brooklynites take pride in living there and NOT living in Manhattan (or on LI or in Jersey).

I'm just going to make the one reply and move on, as we're veering into MMV territory:

I think you answer your own question in your post--yes, people clearly "name-check" Brooklyn, especially transplants (all due respect to them). When you're a 17 year old girl whining and begging to go home in private with your mom, why would you bother to name-check? Saying "Brooklyn" in that situation is just too specific.

Let's put it this way: A lot of people live on 72nd & Lex. I believe they can name-check with the best of them. But do I think a kid would privately whine to her mommy, "can we just go back to 72nd & Lex?" Never! They'd just say home. Lol.

Onto another topic, I was thinking about why Whitney telling her mom she wanted to move to New York sounded wrong, and I realized what's wrong with it: if this old photog really did inspire Whit to want to move to Manhattan, they probably would have had at least a cursory discussion of neighborhoods. Thus, I believe Whitney would have had a specific neighborhood in mind when telling her mom she wanted to move. And the convo would have reflected as such. It would likely be, "Mom, I want to move to SoHo/West Village/Lower East Side." Otherwise, yeah, she'd say "the city." JMO

[scrb]

Interesting that Helen is mopey in her POV but kind of flirtatious and familiar, pretty boisterous at that bar with Noah after the reading.

And in Helen's POV, Noah doesn't moan about the bad review and actually seems more supportive. Yet he's put of control in his own POV?

Maybe the writers accidentally swapped the scripts for the segments?

[Irlandesa]

Another douchebag Noah moment from this episode

 

He's actually upset and pouty when he realizes the woman in lobby isn't reading Descent but The Kite Runner.

 

What a baby.

I'm going to defend Noah on that one because I loved that moment. It was private.  He's nervous and insecure.  It reminded me of how I hope if I wiggle my fingers at my TV set, my favorite football team will score a TD. 

 

It felt like a silly little hope he had.  99% of the time, he's a jerk but I totally got him in that moment. And no one was harmed by it.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Irlandesa

[glowbug]

Just to add another voice to the discussion of the term "New York" to refer to Manhattan, this bothered me too, and I do not live in New York, have never lived in New York, and, in fact, have never lived less than three thousand miles away from New York. I did visit once (and loved it) but that was a very long time ago (the twin towers still existed) and only for a week. Even I knew it sounded wrong. If she had said "the city" I would have known that she meant Manhattan, and I say that having grown up in probably the only major city (Los Angeles) that doesn't actually refer to any part of itself as "the city". It would have sounded less awkward if she had said Manhattan, even if it's not commonly used, because Brooklyn is not Manhattan, whereas Brooklyn is part of New York. At least most of us who aren't from New York or the surrounding areas wouldn't have been bothered by it. Instead they choose a term everyone thinks is wrong.

 

I thought it was very realistic that Noah was bothered by the one critic, even one who's pretty meaningless, because I've seen it happen firsthand. I used to be active on Goodreads and one of the reasons I'm not anymore is because authors would come and attack reviewers for writing critical reviews. Granted, most of these were indie authors, but a fair share of them were published by one of the Big Five (or is it Four now?) and even a few made the New York Times Best Seller's List. These were amateur reviewers and the author's still couldn't let it go. It was very unprofessional and stupid. All their behavior did was publicize the negative review (as Noah surely did) and turn readers against the author and their books.

 

I thought it was interesting that in Noah and Alison's POVs she came across as flirty with Noah whereas Helen doesn't see her that way at all. I do wonder what really happened with Noah and Eden. He was very inebriated at the time so that would affect his perception even more. Was Eden really coming on to him? Did she really let it get that far? Or did they actually have sex? Probably not but still a possibility. 

 

With each episode I become further convinced that what Noah and Alison have is not true love. They both cheat on each other, they both seem miserable in their relationship, they both keep secrets and they seem to bring out the worst in each other. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by glowbug

[loki567]

Another douchebag Noah moment from this episode

 

He's actually upset and pouty when he realizes the woman in lobby isn't reading Descent but The Kite Runner.

 

What a baby.

 

That was a good indication that the writers think Noah is a dick too. If we were suppose to be on his side, she probably would have been reading 50 Shades of Grey or something along those lines. The fact that Noah get's pissed off about somebody reading The Kite Runner, an internationally-acclaimed book, really says something about his ego at this point. 

 

 

 

With each episode I become further convinced that what Noah and Alison have is not true love. They both cheat on each other, they both seem miserable in their relationship, they both keep secrets and they seem to bring out the worst in each other

 

I wonder if audience reaction in season one changed how the writers are approaching the relationship. Treem said we should rooting for them last year. And now to steal a phrase, this feels like a hook-up that has gone on for too long. They've also eased up on Helen and Cole. They're both treated more sympathetically than they were in season one. 

[SlackerInc]

Interesting speculation, Loki.  Could be network notes in play, too (certainly that seems likely, as we've been saying, with all the "Law and Order" present/future stuff, which many of us have been saying was lame all along and only is getting moreso).  I'd love to see what they would have made in a vacuum, with no such feedback, and for only as long as they felt they needed to tell the story.  At this point it feels like it is getting to that point nearly all dramatic television series get to, where they just start piling on nonsense and mixing up various romantic pairings in a quest to keep looking for more "juice".  I'm very disappointed in where things have been heading lately.

 

I do wonder why Treem so recently stuck up for Noah so strongly in the NY Times if they had already decided to tack in the direction of throwing his character under the bus (where most of the audience had already put it).

 

Crunch, crunch, munch, munch -- er, what's that sound I hear?  Posters from the thread on the last ep eating their words -- the ones who said with such assurance, insistence & certainty that Noah would never ever ever ever hook up with Eden, cuz she's just not his type at all.  Yeah, right.  To those who said that (and you know who you are), Treem probably hopes you enjoy eating your words.

 

I don't know about Treem, but it's quite clear you're relishing it.  I said I'd give a mea culpa if that happened, and here it is:

 

Mea culpa.

 

I think I also said if it happened it would be a very bad sign that they were jumping the shark, and I stand by that.  Not just because of that one thing, either--I had a huge problem with the "rapey" thing, and there's the ongoing murder mystery nonsense.  One thing I did actually like in this episode, though, was the prose from the novel.  This finally did seem like something that would get literary praise.

[Milburn Stone]

After the last episode, we discussed whether we were supposed to think that Noah's book was respected by prestigious literary intellectuals, or if it was along the lines of Endless Love (which one character compared it to).

Now that we have our answer - we're expected to believe that the New Yorker loved Noah's book, and that it was on the shortlist for the PEN/Faulkner Award - I'm not buying it for a second.

 

Actually, the last episode left no doubt whether Noah's book was respected by prestigious literary intellectuals. We were told that Philip Roth was crazy about it, Jonathan Franzen wanted to meet Noah, and (IIRC) that Michiko Kakutani of the NYT had given it a rave review. The good review in The New Yorker and being in the running for the PEN/Faulkner Award were carrying him along the same trajectory established last week.

[Milburn Stone]

I feel sorry for any woman Noah hits on.  Rapey-overtones sleezeball.  Gross.  

 

What did you see from Noah in this episode that struck you has having "rapey" overtones? I wouldn't quibble with finding him a contemptible human being (especially in his own POV), but that's not the same thing.

[Constantinople]

Another douchebag Noah moment from this episode

 

He's actually upset and pouty when he realizes the woman in lobby isn't reading Descent but The Kite Runner.

 

What a baby.

 

 

I'm going to defend Noah on that one because I loved that moment. It was private.  He's nervous and insecure.  It reminded me of how I hope if I wiggle my fingers at my TV set, my favorite football team will score a TD. 

 

It felt like a silly little hope he had.  99% of the time, he's a jerk but I totally got him in that moment. And no one was harmed by it.

Noah had just come from the gym in which the only other person was reading his book. He also told Alison about a glowing review from the New Yorker, that people kept e-mailing him and that he was looking pretty good for the PEN\Faulkner based on his information.

How much adulation does Noah need?

To quote Eden, "Even Vladimir Putin settles for 98% of the vote", but Noah's heading into Kim Jong-un territory, if he's not already there.

[attica]

"MILLENIALS, WHAT DOES 'FOMO' MEAN?!!"   Drunk Helen was the best.

 

Maura Tierney plays drunk as well as anybody ever has, imo. She's awesome. Also awesome was the millennial's response: she has contempt for Helen not knowing, but she can't ignore the question, because 'somebody is wrong/clueless in the bar' is a thing she just can't help but address. Just like us here! ;)

 

I also liked the way Helen thought practically about Whitney's ambition to model: "She's not tall enough!" (She's also already too old, but let's let that go.) Whereas Noah is all "It's an adventure! Go for it"  I found myself trying to remember when it was I learned my own social security number, but... I couldn't. Maybe when I started working at 16? Maybe applying to college? Don't remember.

 

The actress playing Eden has an excellent eyebrow game.

[cardigirl]

I think I also said if it happened it would be a very bad sign that they were jumping the shark, and I stand by that.  Not just because of that one thing, either--I had a huge problem with the "rapey" thing, and there's the ongoing murder mystery nonsense.  One thing I did actually like in this episode, though, was the prose from the novel.  This finally did seem like something that would get literary praise.

 

I kind of like the mystery framing this, and am intrigued by it.  I agree, though, it does seem like the writers are going out of their way to make Noah unlikeable.  As I said in an earlier post, I almost started liking Noah in Helen's viewpoint, because he came across as warm and invested in her well-being for a bit.  

 

Even in Noah's point of view, I could understand his enjoyment of his success in checking out who was reading his book, and being obsessive over the Faulkner award.  He's been waiting a long time for recognition, and I'm sure it feels really good to be successful. But then, he had to blow it with Eden, and even Helen was warning him about not turning into her father.  Will he listen?  That remains to be seen.

 

I am really worried though, that Helen's motivation for helping Noah is more than that she wants him back...if they make Helen the accidental-on-purpose murderer of Scotty, I will rend the heavens with my cries of NO FAIR!!!  ;)