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S02.E08: 208


Tara Ariano
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I'm not sure Sarah Treem identifies as a millennial. I don't know her exact age, but according to Wikipedia she graduated from college in 2002 - which would suggest that she was born in '79 or '80.

There are different definitions as to when Generation X ended and the Millennials began. I think 1982 is the most common year listed for when Millennials started being born, but I've also heard 1980 and 1985, and I'm sure there are people who use other starting dates.

That said, I was born in '80, and I've found that most people I know who are the same age as me don't identify as Millennials. A lot of them take pride in not being Millennials.

Anyway, I don't think the line was a dig at anyone. I doubt the writers think that people who don't know what "FOMO" means are out of touch. I think it was more just acknowledging that someone like Helen wouldn't be familiar with that kind of slang - and that in her current "I don't give a fuck" state, she had no qualms about just asking the people around her.

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According to Wikipedia, "There are no precise dates when the generation starts and ends; most researchers and commentators use birth years ranging from the early 1980s to the early 2000s."  Treem was born in 1980, so I guess she qualifies, but would be on the older side of the Millennial spectrum.  She's 35.

 

In the scene where Helen asks what "FOMO" means, "Millennials" seems to mean "college kids" in Helen's mind.  That's kind of how I think of it too. When someone says "Oh, Millennials, with their Instagram obsession and their text-speak" etc., I understand it to mean mostly people in their late teens/early 20s. That might not be technically the definition of "Millennials" but it seems like a common interpretation. 

 

Anyway, all of this is just to say, I agree with the above comment that the "FOMO" scene wasn't a dig by Treem at "older people." She's not that much younger than Helen/Noah herself. 

Edited by iggysaurus
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That said, I was born in '80, and I've found that most people I know who are the same age as me don't identify as Millennials. A lot of them take pride in not being Millennials.

 

Same here, and none of my friends who are the same age identify as Millennials either. I only know what FOMO means because I once read a blog post about it. I've never actually "suffered" from it though.

Edited by chocolatine
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It sounds like we can agree that any intimations of "rapeyness" in this episode (either with Eden or the college girl who slid her phone number across the table at Noah) are strictly imaginary. Whether we can lay any blame for people's imaginations at Treem's feet, I think we may differ on.

 

The whole show is "strictly imaginary."  Isn't that the point of the whole show?  That everyone's connection with "reality" (whatever that is anyway) is filtered through imagination?  That no one has access to the "truth"?   I don't get the implication that one viewer's take on Noah is "imaginary" while what we're seeing on the screen, i.e. his own take on himself, is non-imaginary.  

 

Yeah, I think Noah is dangerously narcissistic in ways that include lacking perspective on women's responses to him.  And yeah, I think that's a recipe for rape.  I do not trust his ability to be a faithful observer and reporter of how into him (or not into him) or how into a sexual encounter (or not into a sexual encounter) a woman is.  Sue me.  

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The thing is, Treem entered into an awful zone with that rape-ish scene (with Noah & Alison).  And in her own words (in the Times interview) she did it on purpose.  OK then.

 

Responding to this in the Alison thread.

 

In the scene where Helen asks what "FOMO" means, "Millennials" seems to mean "college kids" in Helen's mind.  That's kind of how I think of it too. When someone says "Oh, Millennials, with their Instagram obsession and their text-speak" etc., I understand it to mean mostly people in their late teens/early 20s. That might not be technically the definition of "Millennials" but it seems like a common interpretation. 

 

Yeah, it's really annoying because this was the same thing that happened with Generation X.  Around 1990 when that term started being used, it referred to the same age span you are describing, or maybe a little broader (say, 16-29, so people born in the '60s or early '70s).  A decade later, around Y2K, or even a little later, the media were still using "GenX" to refer to twentysomethings, but by that time this meant that the GenXers born in the 1960s were no longer being included, yet they clearly weren't Boomers (especially not those born in the late Sixties), so they were "generationless" at that point.  I started to wonder if people were just going to use "Generation X" as a synonym for "twentysomething" until the end of time.  

 

But no, they finally decided that GenXers could be over 30 after all, though I think they only decided that once almost all of them were over thirty and they had a new moniker for the twentysomething generation.  But as you note, this is shifting once again.  It appears that the majority of the time, people who are in their thirties (early thirties especially) will not be classified as belonging to any generation, which is ridiculous since that tends to be a very creative, productive, and eventful time in people's lifespans.

 

Yeah, or maybe it's more recognizable to regular social media users in general? I use Facebook, Twitter and Instagram pretty frequently. Plus I have (half) sisters and friends still in their 20s, so I'm also pretty exposed to youth culture.

 

But the panelists on the AfterBuzz podcast all seem young, and constantly pimp their Twitter and Instagram feeds, yet they were unfamiliar with it.  As was...

 

I'm the same age as you but I am ALL about Twitter. I had no clue what FOMO meant.

 

 

So, okay, I'm just confused then.  I think of #FOMO (again, "fear of missing out") as relating most of all to Twitter discussions of TV in this age of what many are calling "Peak TV" or "too much TV".  So how someone who posts here and uses Twitter a lot doesn't know it, I am at a loss to explain (same with the AfterBuzz hosts).  Huh.

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Anyway, I don't think the line was a dig at anyone. I doubt the writers think that people who don't know what "FOMO" means are out of touch. I think it was more just acknowledging that someone like Helen wouldn't be familiar with that kind of slang - and that in her current "I don't give a fuck" state, she had no qualms about just asking the people around her.

 

I though the term Millennials was defined as those coming of age in 2000.  So at 34, Treem fits the older end of this group.  Anyhoo, I'm convinced now this was totally Treem & her band of writers mocking poor "oldster" Helen, that she doesn't know what FOMO stands for.  Have to watch the scene again.  But if all the Millennials there screamed in unison what it was (like everyone in Cheers saying hi to Norm), then I'd say Treem was mocking Helen for sure.  But I'm guessing this is projection & that didn't happen at all.  Well, even if it wasn't quite that obvious, it still seems (to me) like Helen was being mocked, but I did think it was funny when I first saw it.  Just annoyed me later on that I laughed at someone my age, being mocked for being my age.  Not thrilled with Treem for doing that.

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Yet the scene started out with how joyful Helen was to be carded, which is a bit unrealistic. Maura Tierney doesn't look old, but she doesn't look as if she's in any danger of being an underage drinker. So I'm not sure FOMO was meant to be a zinger.

 

 

In many joints they supposedly card anyone under 40 & have signs saying they do so.  Does Maura look under 40?  Um, sure, I suppose.  In dark dive-bar lighting, absolutely.

 

Well, when first watching it, I thought the FOMO comment was a dig on millennials.  But thinking about it, since Treem is a millennial, I think it's very much the other way around.  Maybe not a zinger, but a not-so-subtle dig, on us poor, clueless over-40's.  Thanks, Treem (and F.U. btw, hun)

 

It just goes to show what a wide wondrous world we live in; I've never seen a sign saying under 40s are carded (though the local liquor store has a sign that says if you want to purchase tobacco products and you look under 27, you'll be asked for ID).

 

If that's why Helen was carded, I think there would have been a sign in the bar that the viewers would have seen (and Noah being Noah, he probably would have pointed out the sign).

 

Since it was in Noah's POV, I think the part of the point of the bar scene was that Noah was seeing "the wild girl he'd fallen for all those years ago".  That wild girl would be carded and wouldn't be afraid to loudly and drukenly ask a room of total strangers what FOMO means.  It also fits with Helen as Lady Godiva of the Williams library, though Noah mentioned that in Helen's POV.

Edited by Constantinople
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But if all the Millennials there screamed in unison what it was (like everyone in Cheers saying hi to Norm), then I'd say Treem was mocking Helen for sure.

 

Parents are often droll about being older than their children. It's a way to remind themselves that the alternative is to eat their young, and just how peckish are we, really?   

 

The entire exchange was played as a joke that Helen initiated: an in-joke, directed to the audience of her peer, classmate, and ex-husband Noah, right under the kids' noses. "Millennials! What does FOMO mean!" is funny and was meant to be funny.  The reply by the crowd was cheerful, not churlish: they played along. What I saw was a tipsy but still playful acknowledgement by Helen -- playing to Noah -- that she can live in a world where are things she doesn't know because she is older than people who mostly, know only those things.  

 

If anyone was being mocked, it was Eden mocked by Helen, for obliviously sending her prize client a text that was gibberish to him. Eden and maybe, by extension, Noah: for acquiescing in the self-importance of the undergraduate critic, or his callow publicist (who looked and acted much like Whitney, 8 years older).  A teasing reminder to Noah that here they are, beset by FOMO, on the campus and in a college eatery that once was theirs -- before they, unlike any other couple in attendance that night, went on to marry, create and raise four children together, and survive both 20+ years of wedlock and a midlife divorce. 

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Sense I got was that Helen didn't really care about the short hands used be Millenials in general but wanted to know this particular one since it came up in conversation and she just wanted to know so instead of Googling she just asked some people in the restaurant.

Doubtful that she thinks she'd get some special insights on life from a younger generation. She just wanted to know one thing in their lingo.

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I thought Helen yelling out to the Millennials was fun--basically saying, "Oh FFS, what is your obnoxious publicist on about? Let me find out immediately, so we don't waste any time wondering or thinking about her....There, done. We have our answer." So, more of a criticism of Eden. And maybe on some deeper level it was supposed to illustrate that although Helen and Noah were having a good, companionable time in their old haunt, in actuality, they no longer belong there; they're just visiting and they don't speak the language. (There, being their early relationship when they were in love.)

Also, some skilled bartenders will card a woman who's obviously old enough to drink because when done right, it's a nice, and fun, compliment. That part was completely realistic to me.

About Eden's and Noah's thwarted hookup--it did take a while before she ended it, but I figured that her inner monologue of "This is a big fucking mistake!" finally got loud enough for her to pay attention to it and stop what was happening. And if that's what actually happened, I can relate to that because I've been in her shoes (except I didn't have perfect eyebrows and he wasn't a client or an author du jour). I saw it as a contrast to the rage-fueled tree sex with Alison, where I was hoping she'd shut him down but didn't.

I've read some comments mentioning how weird it is that Helen and Noah were at the wrestling match together with his and his "paramour's" baby, or that it's strange that Alison and Noah attended Luisa's and Cole's wedding. Although I'd never be that evolved, I do have friends who were able to forgive and move on from the hurt and betrayal of being cheated on and went to each other's weddings and big events.

Until this episode, I haven't disliked Noah. To me, he's extremely flawed--incredibly selfish at times, extremely immature (always looking for ego strokes, which to me is a sign of needing to grow up), makes lots of mistakes--but has good characteristics, too. However, when he couldn't even act half-arsed about the baby's nursery and seemed irked about his missing desk, I just wanted Alison to tell him to fuck off. That he couldn't show a little enthusiasm to her, knowing her history, soured me on him. And then his attempted hookup with Eden--bleh!

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Parents are often droll about being older than their children. It's a way to remind themselves that the alternative is to eat their young, and just how peckish are we, really?   

 

The entire exchange was played as a joke that Helen initiated: an in-joke, directed to the audience of her peer, classmate, and ex-husband Noah, right under the kids' noses. "Millennials! What does FOMO mean!" is funny and was meant to be funny.  The reply by the crowd was cheerful, not churlish: they played along. What I saw was a tipsy but still playful acknowledgement by Helen -- playing to Noah -- that she can live in a world where are things she doesn't know because she is older than people who mostly, know only those things.  

 

If anyone was being mocked, it was Eden mocked by Helen, for obliviously sending her prize client a text that was gibberish to him. Eden and maybe, by extension, Noah: for acquiescing in the self-importance of the undergraduate critic, or his callow publicist (who looked and acted much like Whitney, 8 years older).  A teasing reminder to Noah that here they are, beset by FOMO, on the campus and in a college eatery that once was theirs -- before they, unlike any other couple in attendance that night, went on to marry, create and raise four children together, and survive both 20+ years of wedlock and a midlife divorce. 

 

Very eloquent!  I have nothing to add, but I really enjoyed reading that.

 

Also, some skilled bartenders will card a woman who's obviously old enough to drink because when done right, it's a nice, and fun, compliment. That part was completely realistic to me.

About Eden's and Noah's thwarted hookup--it did take a while before she ended it, but I figured that her inner monologue of "This is a big fucking mistake!" finally got loud enough for her to pay attention to it and stop what was happening. And if that's what actually happened, I can relate to that because I've been in her shoes (except I didn't have perfect eyebrows and he wasn't a client or an author du jour). I saw it as a contrast to the rage-fueled tree sex with Alison, where I was hoping she'd shut him down but didn't.

 

I was thinking of that possibility re: the bartender carding her.

 

The "except I didn't have perfect eyebrows" was a literal LOL.

 

And I agree with you about Noah.  I'm irked at Treem for throwing Noah under the bus like this just after defending him to the hilt in the NYT.  I wish I understood what she is up to.

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Late to the party this week but I had fun reading about New York vs Manhattan/Brooklyn, FOMO & millennials,and perfect eyebrows. Despite the big issues raised by this show, sometimes the most interesting discussion points are the mundane ones. I have nothing to add though. 

 

What I can say is that Helen continues on this remarkable arc of hers. I never liked taking her side by default for merely being cheated on but I've loved seeing her gain insight into what I thought had been problematic in her marriage. Even Whitney laid into her for living off her parents, a fair point but harshly delivered - typically. I also thought Noah's point about Whitney's deferment was more solid than Helen's "I know better, she's making a mistake." Besides those points, Helen has been otherwise remarkable, it's no surprise Noah would like this person again. It even partially explains Helen's actions in the "Law & Order" scenes (love that moniker, btw), their friendship has blossomed into a (possibly) non-romantic love -- she'd do anything to see him not go to jail, even if it means throwing Alison under the bus. In a way this confirms my speculation from two weeks back, although I had assumed animosity towards Alison was the main driver rather than "love" for Noah. But as the norm with this show, a mixture of both is probably closer to the truth.

 

And I agree with you about Noah.  I'm irked at Treem for throwing Noah under the bus like this just after defending him to the hilt in the NYT.  I wish I understood what she is up to.

 

 

I'm still trying to get to grips with the writers here. On one hand, nothing had happened until now (clearly disproving the theories that something was already happening between Noah and Eden by Thanksgiving) and Noah was drunk and probably wouldn't have attempted this otherwise. On the other hand, Treem has been saddling Noah with more and more unpleasant qualities, putting some of us Noah "apologists" on the defensive. Our position is clearly becoming untenable. If Noah has no inner turmoil and some inert warmth, then some justifiable misdeeds - like the lack of enthusiasm about Alison's pregnancy (she sprung it on him) - don't carry any weight. Noah is clearly the most controversial character, but I don't want him to be the villain of the piece, Oscar wears that hat much better.

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I know some people here really dislike hearing Treem's twitter views so I'll spoiler mark this even though it's fairly cryptic, but regarding Noah she said: 

All I can say about Noah's arc, for all of you who feel deeply about it, is the whole season has been headed towards episode 9. #TheAffair

 

So, I'm not sure what that means exactly but given the previews and description of next week's episode...my spec is that he has a comeuppance happening.

Edited by AmandaPanda
fixed spoiler tags
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I know some people here really dislike hearing Treem's twitter views so I'll spoiler mark this even though it's fairly cryptic, but regarding Noah she said:

 

All I can say about Noah's arc, for all of you who feel deeply about it, is the whole season has been headed towards episode 9. #TheAffair

 

So, I'm not sure what that means exactly but given the previews and description of next week's episode...my spec is that he has a comeuppance happening.

You may wish to edit your post if you want Sarah Treem's tweet to be in spoiler tags.

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If anyone was being mocked, it was Eden mocked by Helen, for obliviously sending her prize client a text that was gibberish to him. Eden and maybe, by extension, Noah: for acquiescing in the self-importance of the undergraduate critic, or his callow publicist (who looked and acted much like Whitney, 8 years older).

 

I had a nagging thought that Eden looked older than that to me, and checking Wikipedia, the actor playing her is indeed 35, fifteen years older than the one playing Whitney.

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I figured Noah's probs begin & end with his failure (in his mind -- and of course, in the minds of Margaret & Bruce Butt-hole) as a provider for Helen & the kids. But here's what I'm really wondering: This thing with Noah & banging random chicks -- has he always been this way? Or was he faithful to Helen for many years & this urge to bang tons of hot young chicks is just bursting out in full force? Did the affair with that sex machine Alison bring this out in Noah or was it always there? Idk, just wondering. Right now, Treem hasn't given us much of a clue.

I am watching the first season right now, and Noah tells Alison he has never cheated on Helen before. He could be lying, but it's from his perspective and doesn't seem like a lie. He says it like, "of course I've thought about it plenty of times, but I never actually followed through until now". My husband and I laughed about it because the way he said it made it seem like it's a given that everyone thinks about cheating on their spouse. As if a human cannot possibly see an attractive person without being tempted to cheat.

ETA: I am 1979, so not a millenial but the same graduating class as the oldest millenials, and my friends would absolutely not identify themselves as such. I do not think Treem sees herself as a millenial (although she probably doesnt see herself as Gen X either. Does anyone else remember when they tried to make Gen Y happen?) or is making fun of older Helen. I thought that was a fun scene showing Helen having a good time.

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I am watching the first season right now, and Noah tells Alison he has never cheated on Helen before. He could be lying, but it's from his perspective and doesn't seem like a lie. He says it like, "of course I've thought about it plenty of times, but I never actually followed through until now". My husband and I laughed about it because the way he said it made it seem like it's a given that everyone thinks about cheating on their spouse. As if a human cannot possibly see an attractive person without being tempted to cheat.

 

At the risk of being all about "heteronormativity" and "the male gaze", I will only speak about the group I belong to, as I can't say to what degree this would apply to others. I don't believe a normal, "red-blooded" heterosexual male can see an attractive woman, whose face and curves are visible, without having at least a fleeting thought of having sex with her.  Whether that is the same as "being tempted to cheat" is I guess in the eye of the beholder.

P.S. I also think most hetero men will steadfastly deny to their wives/girlfriends the proposition I advanced above, while secretly being irritated with me for talking about it, like "STFU, dude--I don't need this grief".  LOL

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At the risk of being all about "heteronormativity" and "the male gaze", I will only speak about the group I belong to, as I can't say to what degree this would apply to others. I don't believe a normal, "red-blooded" heterosexual male can see an attractive woman, whose face and curves are visible, without having at least a fleeting thought of having sex with her. Whether that is the same as "being tempted to cheat" is I guess in the eye of the beholder.

P.S. I also think most hetero men will steadfastly deny to their wives/girlfriends the proposition I advanced above, while secretly being irritated with me for talking about it, like "STFU, dude--I don't need this grief". LOL

I do not think a fleeting thought of sex with someone else is "tempted to cheat." I believe cheating happens after many less obvious boundaries have already been crossed. But the way Noah said it, it was like he was some kind of hero for managing to keep it in his pants.

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I'm not quite 40, don't use Twitter and have never heard FOMO before this episode. So maybe you nailed it. That whole scene bummed me right out, because I unconsciously think of myself younger and cooler than Noah & Helen. Then the show comes along to remind me that I'm old, and they're really my peers. I like your theory, because it means I'm still cool...I just don't tweet ;)

 

I've decided to console myself.  Although I didn't know what FOMO meant, at least I knew what MOFO meant long before the advent of social media.

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Whitney must be a raging asshole. There isn't a single perspective we've seen where she shows any redeeming qualities. If she was my daughter, I'd let her go live with any photographer who would take her, just to get her away from me. Hasta la vista, shrieking Whitney!

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At the risk of being all about "heteronormativity" and "the male gaze", I will only speak about the group I belong to, as I can't say to what degree this would apply to others. I don't believe a normal, "red-blooded" heterosexual male can see an attractive woman, whose face and curves are visible, without having at least a fleeting thought of having sex with her.  Whether that is the same as "being tempted to cheat" is I guess in the eye of the beholder.

P.S. I also think most hetero men will steadfastly deny to their wives/girlfriends the proposition I advanced above, while secretly being irritated with me for talking about it, like "STFU, dude--I don't need this grief".  LOL

So, just by the design of this post, no straight woman can effectively challenge it. Nothing we say is valid, because we are not members of the heterosexual male group in question, and we can't ask a male peer to weigh in, because, by the statement's implication, anything he says contrary to what it says will be a lie or an omission. Interesting.

I wouldn't deign to consult my boyfriend about this. But I do opine that the quoted statements are sweeping and over broad for the reasons I will set out below. Many men that I've known have very specific types of women they are interested in. And the ones that don't have specific types still seem to have types of women they aren't open to dating, and to whom they're not sexually attracted, even if a woman of that subset is deemed "attractive" and said woman makes herself and her "curves" apparent. In general, I am talking about women on either end of the body type spectrum. There are guys who will not in any way be attracted to women who weigh 100 lbs, and other guys that aren't in any way attracted to women that weigh 200 lbs. Unfortunately, and it's sad that we're not more evolved than we are, there are men of all races who are not attracted to women of various other races. This is so ingrained that it would be hard to deny. Also, I think the statement, to the extent that is it true, is not contextualized. I don't think by virtue of being a male who is "red-blooded" and heterosexual, that one can make generalizations about other groups of men, who are just as red-blooded and heterosexual, from other cultures. The reaction of an urban American man to a pretty face and a flash of thigh will not necessarily be the same reaction as an Eskimo man living in remote Alaska. As it would be different for a rural Pakistani farmer when he catches sight of his sister's childhood friend, even if said woman is attractive and he glimpses her curves. Many men's reaction to this sight would actually be anger and rage. And I don't even want to get into any of the mental Freudian games that would go down between members of the same family if the quoted statement, in its current form, were true. Yes, given that Noah has shown himself to behave like an oversexed western teenager, he probably does envision himself having sex with the majority of the women with whom he comes into contact. He's no more representative of an entire sex than Margaret is. But then, if my world were full of Noahs, I'd slap on a chastity belt and throw away the key. Thank God there are actually attractive, sexual, genuine, caring men out there! (Even Treem doesn't want us to think the world is full of Noahs. For every Noah and Bruce, there is a Max and a Cole.)

I also don't think, when confronted with the above statement, men would get irritated or flustered. The fact that many (not all) heterosexual men will envision sex between themselves and some attractive woman with curves is not exactly some Guy State Secret. When a guy masturbates to porn, he is almost by definition having thoughts--fleeting or otherwise--of having sex with another woman. Porn isn't the multi-billion dollar industry it is because people are watching for the story. And I doubt women are naive enough to think its all being consumed by single guys. Nor do most women consider it cheating.

To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, some men will see curves and a pretty face and envision sex with another woman all of the time, and most men will envision sex with another woman some of the time. But not all men will see curves and an attractive face and envision sex with another woman all of the time.

I know the human mind is a crazy thing, and thoughts can seem to leap into our brains without our control. But IMO this goes too far in predicting how a straight male *will* think given a specific set of stimuli. Sometimes sex is the LAST thing on a guy's mind. If the mind of the hetero man were this reductive, no way Cole would have lost his erection to Luisa when they are having sex and she says, "I love you." Luisa is highly attractive and naked, yet Cole's body and mind are not on sex.

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I also don't think, when confronted with the above statement, men would get irritated or flustered. The fact that many (not all) heterosexual men will envision sex between themselves and some attractive woman with curves is not exactly some Guy State Secret. 

 

That's true, kind of.  But how many times on TV have we seen the humorous trope of an attractive woman walking by a hetero couple, and the woman asks her mate "do you think she's pretty?" to which he responds, in exaggerated fashion, "oh, no, she's ugly"?  We laugh for two reasons.  One, because as you say, it's not a "state secret" that he is lying through his teeth.  But we also laugh because we know that versions of this conversation do happen IRL and that in most relationships the guy is not free to answer "oh yeah, she's smokin' hot, obv.".

 

ETA: I also think a lot of guys do hide their porn usage from their wives/girlfriends.  But that may be changing, and in general I don't feel on as solid ground to predict how prevalent it is.  It is certainly still a trope in fiction, though: "your browsing history is always cleared", said in an accusatory fashion, was featured on a premium cable dramedy I saw recently.

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That's true, kind of.  But how many times on TV have we seen the humorous trope of an attractive woman walking by a hetero couple, and the woman asks her mate "do you think she's pretty?" to which he responds, in exaggerated fashion, "oh, no, she's ugly"?  We laugh for two reasons.  One, because as you say, it's not a "state secret" that he is lying through his teeth.  But we also laugh because we know that versions of this conversation do happen IRL and that in most relationships the guy is not free to answer "oh yeah, she's smokin' hot, obv.".

 

ETA: I also think a lot of guys do hide their porn usage from their wives/girlfriends.  But that may be changing, and in general I don't feel on as solid ground to predict how prevalent it is.  It is certainly still a trope in fiction, though: "your browsing history is always cleared", said in an accusatory fashion, was featured on a premium cable dramedy I saw recently.

Ok, I will absolutely co-sign this. That is one of the reasons you don't poke a sleeping bear. There is an unspoken agreement between my boyfriend and me that we don't talk about people of the opposite sex whom we find attractive, or who we are sexually attracted to other than each other. I have always had this rule, because the mind of your partner can, at times, be a cess pool. Don't ask, don't tell. If I were to ask my boyfriend if he thought a woman were beautiful and he were to reply, "oh yeah, she's smoking hot," I'd deserve what I'd asked for. I've been burned once or twice in high school, and that is enough to cure my inquires into this quarry for life. A lot of women, such as apparently Helen, are not this closed, but you gotta know if you're naturally jealous and work these tendencies accordingly.

I think you've got your finger on the pulse with the porn too. I don't know what my boyfriend, or any of my boyfriends, were doing in this area, and I won't ask. I would also never, ever go through his phone or email, because I know that I could take a very innocent communication out of context. To put it in terms of the show, if I were Alison, I probably wouldn't have read Descent, even after it were published, if I thought it could be potentially inflammatory. And that is probably the reason I don't go around casting other people's books off bookshelves. I'd rather be sane and sheltered than the alternative.

I think this show causes us to question our selves and what we find acceptable, socially and relationally, and that is not a bad thing.

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Absolutely!  I think it's very interesting that it was once not just a social taboo, but a legal one, to "commit adultery", to leave your spouse for someone else, etc.  We have moved forward (IMO) as a society to say that none of the stuff these couples have done is illegal (well, er, except for Cole and Alison's coke dealing, Cole's gun brandishing, Helen's DWI accident with unsecured kid, and someone's running down Scotty...but you know what I mean).  Even if your ex's lawyer throws around "paramour" in court, you are still likely to get a decent share of parental rights.  And millions of people go through these kinds of things without getting the scarlet letter treatment in terms of employment and so on.

 

But OTOH there's still a huge reticence to make "cheaters" protagonists (as opposed to villains) of TV shows or movies.  And in the rare cases when someone does, there tends to be a big ruckus kicked up, as we have seen.  Which is why I've been disappointed to see what's been done to Noah's character in recent episodes, as before that I felt like it was a big step forward to be able to present him as a guy who had a wife and kids, fooled around and fell in love, but was still a decent guy after all of that.  We'll see how it shakes out, but right now I feel a bit betrayed, like Treem lost her nerve on that front.

  • Love 2
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I though the term Millennials was defined as those coming of age in 2000.  So at 34, Treem fits the older end of this group.

It's mostly used to describe people who were little kids on January 1, 2000 - and in some cases, people who weren't born yet.

it's certainly possible that Treem considers herself a millennial, but for someone her age to identify strongly as a millennial is pretty rare. And if she sides with millennials, and wants to mock older people for being clueless, I don't think she'd portray the show's primary millennial character (Whitney) as a clueless brat.

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If Allison didn't think it was rape, was it?  She didn't even say no.  The very first episode of The Affair showed Cole and Allison in a "rape-ish scene," but no one ever accuses Cole of being rapey.   Seems like a double standard.  Nothing that Noah did in this episode, either from his perspective or from Helen's, was close to rape.  If you overuse the word, it loses its power.

 

I think that Noah, even from his own perspective, has real problems.  He seems himself as a douchebag, much more than Helen does.  And I agree that it's newfound fame.  In the past, he was always in the shadow of Helen's family.  He had a steady job and was a good father, but this is the first time he's got recognition for something he's achieved.

How do we know that Alison didn't think it was rape? Noah had sex with her, then it cut to another scene in their apartment. IRL, many people stay with their rapists because they don't want to believe that they'd been raped. Rape is more complex than not saying no. What about people who are drugged or are physically threatened? That may have not happened in Alison's case, but by defining rape by the lack of no, that is what make the belief that rape has occurred lose its power. 

 

The reason this perspective is not a double standard is because of the POV, which has been highlighted in the series by Alison. In Noah's POV, Alison is oversexed, which she called him out for. Cole is aggressive and, for the longest, Helen was overbearing. Depending on how Noah feels about a person, their temperament changes. In Noah's POV, Cole comes off as rapey, in Alison's, it was consensual. Who do I believe? The man who over sexes everyone or the woman who eventually admitted she used sex to dull the pain??? Then, right after she admitted this to Noah, he has sex with her against a tree after dragging her out of yoga--this was his POV. 

 

Moving on, Noah was ALMOST likable until I saw his POV. He was more upset that his office became a nursery--where is his kid going to sleep??? In the room with them? Or with whitney and his youngest daughter or the boys? What about their bedroom? 

 

HE didn't even feel guilty about almost sleeping with Eden or still having that girl's number in his pocket.

 

Another thing, it is so hard for me to discern with POV is closer to the truth just because they are so drastically different besides the fact that Helen and Noah sat together somewhere and had something. Was it drinks or food? Did Noah apologize about an abortion? Did Helen tell him not to sweat over a review? Like, what really happened? Helen was so favorable towards him, but Noah shat on himself in his. 

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Another thing, it is so hard for me to discern with POV is closer to the truth just because they are so drastically different besides the fact that Helen and Noah sat together somewhere and had something. Was it drinks or food? Did Noah apologize about an abortion? Did Helen tell him not to sweat over a review? Like, what really happened? Helen was so favorable towards him, but Noah shat on himself in his. 

I was OK with the two different versions, because you gotta figure, IRL a conversation like that would have go on for a couple hours, with various peaks a valleys. One moment stood out for Helen, one moment (apparently after much libation) stood out for Noah. it's not like the whole conversation took the 5 minutes or whatever onscreen time we saw.

And count me as loving Helen bantering with the "millennials". For some reason got no vibe of snide from the girl who sallied back, I think she was just having fun playing with the drunk lady.

Edited by bunnywithanaxe
  • Love 7
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Which is why I've been disappointed to see what's been done to Noah's character in recent episodes, as before that I felt like it was a big step forward to be able to present him as a guy who had a wife and kids, fooled around and fell in love, but was still a decent guy after all of that.  We'll see how it shakes out, but right now I feel a bit betrayed, like Treem lost her nerve on that front.

 

I was about to post something about Treem getting tired of swimming against the tide but I think losing her nerve is more apt. The backlash against Noah has been swift and almost universal. Instead of asking the audience to ponder about the rights and wrongs cheating itself, the whole question is now being tainted with Noah's douchebaggery. I don't want him to be a saint, far from it. I didn't mind that he was unhappy about Alison's pregnancy but his demeanour is in danger of portraying him as blaming and hating the baby itself. Considering Alison's history, the level of self involvement is astounding and this undercuts whatever argument was in his favor.

 

I was OK with the two different versions, because you gotta figure, IRL a conversation like that would have go on for a couple hours, with various peaks a valleys. One moment stood out for Helen, one moment (apparently after much libation) stood out for Noah. it's not like the whole conversation took the 5 minutes or whatever onscreen time we saw.

 

I agree completely. I would also point out that for a while now (since mid season 1) the writers have not generally used the different POVs to go over the same ground; rather, Noah's view would take over from Helen's, say. There are still differences but generally the points of emphasis will differ for the two individuals (was Helen drunk and more boisterous or was she more sedate? And does it really matter?)

  • Love 2
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I didn't realize that publishing a best seller made you such a rock god. All those women gazing up at him during the reading, stroking his ego like they're part of a cult.

Still do not like Whitney and find her part over acted.

Noah is one ugly fuck.

  • Love 2
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I was about to post something about Treem getting tired of swimming against the tide but I think losing her nerve is more apt. The backlash against Noah has been swift and almost universal. Instead of asking the audience to ponder about the rights and wrongs cheating itself, the whole question is now being tainted with Noah's douchebaggery. I don't want him to be a saint, far from it. I didn't mind that he was unhappy about Alison's pregnancy but his demeanour is in danger of portraying him as blaming and hating the baby itself. Considering Alison's history, the level of self involvement is astounding and this undercuts whatever argument was in his favor.

 

I really don't get Treem being surprised at the Noah hate.  She created this character & is responsible for what we're seeing him do.  The biggest prob to me is his awful traits are being spotlighted -- more by Treem than in viewers' imaginations.  Noah has some really great characteristics.  He has been a good & loyal father & husband for nearly 20 years.  Helen has confirmed this many times.  And yet this seems to get lost in the sauce for most viewers (including me).  Not sure why.  Is it totally Treems' fault?  Or could it be Dominic West (altho I think he is a very actor) is wrong for this part?  

 

Maybe it's just me, but I think the way Dominic is playing him, banging every hot chick that goes for him, Noah seems like a slick player, who has been doing this forever.  I'm kinda not buying he was a loyal husband & father, despite Helen saying it.  She could say it 50 billion times.  I just don't buy it.  Noah still seems like an asshole to me.  OK, he's not a snotty dickhead that I wanna kick in the teeth (like Max) every time I see his smarmy/smirky mug pop up, but still an asshole.

 

If Treem wants to turn Noah into Bruce-Butthole, then that's what she's doing.  But if she wants to make him likeable, as she seems to like him, then she's not doing a good job of it.  And maybe Dominic, for some reason, can't make many (if not most) of us like Noah no matter how Treem & her crew write him.

 

And count me as loving Helen bantering with the "millennials". For some reason got no vibe of snide from the girl who sallied back, I think she was just having fun playing with the drunk lady.

 

I can see that.  Well, at least Treem didn't have the girl roll her eyes & smirk & laugh at the poor drunk mom lady, who was too "clueless" to know what FOMO was.  Everyone did seem to be having a good time.

Edited by ScoobieDoobs
  • Love 2
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 Maybe it's just me, but I think the way Dominic is playing him, banging every hot chick that goes for him, Noah seems like a slick player, who has been doing this forever.

 

If Treem wants to turn Noah into Bruce-Butthole, then that's what she's doing.  But if she wants to make him likeable, as she seem to like him, then she's not doing a good job of it.  And maybe Dominic, for some reason, can't make many (if not most) of us like Noah no matter how Treem & her crew write him.

I tend to put it mostly on the writing. I think there were moments in this episode where he was quite likable, especially through Helen's eyes and before Helen left him even in his own version.  When I think of all the reasons I hate Noah, it's largely based on things he has done and not some form of delivery. 

  • Love 1
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I was OK with the two different versions, because you gotta figure, IRL a conversation like that would have go on for a couple hours, with various peaks a valleys. One moment stood out for Helen, one moment (apparently after much libation) stood out for Noah. it's not like the whole conversation took the 5 minutes or whatever onscreen time we saw.

And count me as loving Helen bantering with the "millennials". For some reason got no vibe of snide from the girl who sallied back, I think she was just having fun playing with the drunk lady.

That's not what I'm getting at. They meet up after the reading is what throws me off. Think back to the mediation scene in the first episode of this season: despite Helen and Noah perceiving how it went, the location was exact. With court, despite them focusing on different topics: her money, his place, the location and demeanor of the judge was exact. I don't want it to be exactly the same because that would be boring and unnecessary, but I expect a constant or two. In this scene, the locations were drastically different. One was a restaurant where they went as college students and Noah apologized about the abortion--that was place was significant. The other was a bar with millennials. One Helen is sober and realizing that she should let Whitney model and the other Helen is drunk and Whitney isn't mentioned at all. Besides them sitting down and consuming something, there is not much similarities--there isn't a constant. For me, that took me out--not necessarily in a bad way, but it's disorienting as a viewer. I understand that they rely on the unreliable narrator, but if there aren't any constants in the story, then what is the truth besides the affair and Noah leaving?

I tend to put it mostly on the writing. I think there were moments in this episode where he was quite likable, especially through Helen's eyes and before Helen left him even in his own version.  When I think of all the reasons I hate Noah, it's largely based on things he has done and not some form of delivery. 

Exactly, I tend to hate Noah because of Noah and largely through his own POV's. Even in Alison's he doesn't come off better and she's supposedly in love with him. Helen has had the most favorable view of him so far in this past ep.

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It's mostly used to describe people who were little kids on January 1, 2000 - and in some cases, people who weren't born yet.

 

Not per Wikipedia: 

 

Strauss and Howe use 1982 as the Millennials' starting birth year and 2004 as the last birth year.[5]

In his book The Lucky Few: Between the Greatest Generation and the Baby Boom, author Elwood Carlson called Millennials the "New Boomers" (born 1983 to 2001), because of the upswing in births after 1983, finishing with the "political and social challenges" that occurred after the terrorist acts of September 11, 2001, and the "persistent economic difficulties" of the time.[18] 

In 2006, Australian McCrindle Research Center, used 1982 to 2000 as birth dates...

In 2013, a global generational study conducted by PricewaterhouseCoopers with the University of Southern California and the London Business School defined Millennials as those born between 1980 and 1995.[22]

 

In May 2013, a Time magazine cover story identified Millennials as those born from 1980 or 1981 to 2000.[23]

 

In 2014, the Pew Research Center, an American think tank organization, defined "adult Millennials" as those who are 18 to 33 years old, born 1981–1996.[24] And according to them, the youngest Millennials are still "in their teens" with "no chronological end point set for them yet".[24]

 

Also, in 2014, a comparative study from Dale Carnegie Training and MSW Research was released which studies Millennials compared to other generations in the workplace. This study described "Millennial" birth years between 1980-1996. [25]

 

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I don't hate Noah as much as everyone else. Don't get me wrong, he IS an asshole in many ways and has done some extremely awful things. But I can also see through to the man who dislikes himself deep down and that is why he needs all of this validation and craves it.

 

Also, I really don't think he was a cheater at all before Alison. Not that he didn't "think about it" as he said. But from what Helen has said, he was originally a "safe" choice, a quiet guy, a bit in the background. That doesn't jibe with some people's impressions of him as a cad about town from the get-go. No, I think that he, like many people, has gained confidence and prowess if you will, over the years. And he did start to have a midlife crisis. He felt disrespected by Bruce and Margaret Butler for YEARS and it was destroying him inside. His own wife wouldn't even take his side. These are the kinds of life experiences that can cause things to spiral out of control. An affair, addiction, what have you.

 

Also, many people are harshly judging Noah for, in their minds, practically attacking Eden. But I didn't see that. Eden is the one who showed up totally late night at his door. Why couldn't she just text/call him if it was totally innocent? When there was a knock at the door and Noah sat there so drunk he could barely keep his eyes open I thought, please don't be Eden. But of course it was. And if you watch again you will see that Eden made the bedroom eyes at him and tilted her head to softly say, "where were you all night?" Then they mutually started kissing. So I don't see him as a raging, aggressive pervert, ha. I fully admit though that he is still an asshole for cheating on (pregnant!) Alison.

 

I was so sad when he was gesturing at Helen and it turned out to be for her to give the hat back. I thought he was saying, "me and you" in a cute way and maybe even motioning her in for a kiss. I think Helen did too. Very sad to see.

 

I LOVE, LOVE these actors! All of them but especially Dominic and Maura. They are INSANELY great. They are 200 percent real and their scenes feel like real life to me. There is no over-acting, they have it down to a fine art. They are perfect. I also think Ruth Wilson is amazing. Joshua Jackson is great but not excellent, just my opinion. But I still really enjoy watching him. And Whitney's character has gotten a lot more interesting but I haven't forgotten her sociopathic outbursts and threats. She is a scary girl underneath. I didn't buy her warm fuzziness when Martin came home from the hospital. Her big smile and gushing. It just seemed out of character for who we have seen Whitney to be up until then.

  • Love 4
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This line bugged me because I'm Helen and Noah's age, and of COURSE I know what FOMO means! I even suffer from it. I love this show and look forward to it every week, but I do sometimes feel that the 40-somethings act older and more out-of-touch then a lot of us Gen Xers actually are. Just me?

I'm a millennial, and I had never even heard of FOMO. Not all of us are up on text speak.

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I almost turned this off just a few minutes in because I couldn't take Whitney. I can see the asshole doesn't fall far from the tree... yes I'm looking at you Noah.

 

Yes, this is pretty much what I came in here to say. She really is awful. And not because she was brutally honest with Helen about never having really supported herself -- which was harsh but true -- but the way that she (and the other 2 older kids) are so disrespectful to both Helen and Noah. I can tell you if I'd ever talked to my mother the way Whitney talked to Helen -- dropping f-bombs every other word and generally cursing like a sailor -- she would have smacked me. When I hear the kids swearing the way they do, it really takes me out of the show. None of my friends who are parents would tolerate that, nor would I.

  • Love 1
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Wow, he really has no interest in his baby, and appears to have no interest in Alison, beyond sex. I actually feel a little bad for her now. Just a bit. 

 

Loved Helen in this episode. I generally like her, anyway. I didn't like her daughter telling her she only had maybe five good years left: her dad gets to screw around, no matter his age, just like her grandfather, but a woman is reminded that she doesn't have long left to be desirable. it reminded me of Julia Louis-Dreyfuss and her last day to be seen as desirable.

 

Interesting that the book is called "Descent" and he seems to be sinking into a really bad version of himself. 

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I just started watching this show several weeks ago when I was at my parents' for the weekend. I think I was looking for something to fill the time now that Homeland has wrapped. I've been following along the discussions with each episode I watched, but this episode is the one that made me want to participate in discussions. First:

 

A really bad episode for Noah

 

1. He can't handle any criticism, not even from the critic from the college newspaper.  It's pretty pathetic when, to assuage your fragile ego, your publicist has to tell you "What do you want, 100% adulation? Even Vladimir Putin settles for 98% of the vote."

 

2. He tries to punch the critic.  Not the first time we've seen issues with his temper

 

3. He whines that he didn't win the award because he's a white man.

 

4. He tries to makeout with Eden while pregnant Alison is back home.  Nor, IMO, is this the first time he thought of it since he initially started reading the shower scene becuase Eden thinks it's sexy.

 

5. He's totally oblivious to his daughter

 

6. The best insult this alleged literary genius can come-up with for his (ex) father-in-law is Bruce Butthole.

 

I just watched this episode this morning. There are few shows or movies that cause me to physically react when watching them. However, when the bolded part of your list happened, I put my hands over my face and shouted out in my empty living room, "Oh my god! Give me a fucking break!" 

 

Funny enough, I've kind of been indifferent on Noah has it regards this whole affair. I don't think I believed that he was madly, deeply in love with Allison but more unhappy with the state of his marriage to Helen. I could sort of see how it would manifest into looking for something outside of himself to bring fleeting...not happiness, but maybe a temporary high. And my reactions to his thing with Allison were pretty much of the "Eh, whatever" variety. However, this episode was the first time I went from wrinkling my nose at some of the things Noah's done to outright disliking him. All because of his specific whining about the disadvantage of being a straight, white man in publishing. In what world, Noah Solloway? In what world?

 

Ernest Schiffbaum is awesome.

 

That is all.

 

The actor is a comedian as well. He's one of the correspondents on The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore.

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