S02.E07: I Want You To Die

[FakingIt]

Dude, what Bonnie did with killing Rebecca was illegal.  You don't casually wrap a plastic bag around someone's head, even if you think you're protecting someone.

[Neurochick]

Dude, what she did with the video was illegal. You can't casually keep child pornography on thumb drive, even if you are a lawyer. Much like drugs or murder weapons, that shit goes into police evidence. So it's super messed up that she even has something like that, not to mention how many levels that it's wrong to show its contents to someone else. You can go to jail for having and/or watching something like that.

 

True, but you know what else is illegal?  Murder, which what Bonnie committed.  

[Primetimer]

It's a great episode, but...not Oliver! Make it literally any other character instead!

Read the story

[Whitley Trillbert]

The scene with Mich, Connor, Frank and Ollie was hilarious...from, "Preppin' dat aaaasss", to "I asked your boo..." OMG I had to rewind the boo part a few times...if you look closely, when they show Mich after Oliver goes to sit, she smiles a little. IDK if she broke character and chuckled a little or what but it would be even funnier if that were the case.

 

"Him" is too vague IMO. I think if he were her son they would have just said it there, mainly because there has been speculation about it from the beginning so a later reveal after saying "him" would be a let down, at least for me. IDK...if he is maybe the way they reveal it will be awesome.

 

Everyone on this show got too much sexual chemistry even Bonnie and Ana seem like they about to start kissing.

[Chicago Redshirt]

So they made Asher not part of the rape, but have him downstairs drunk to do much of anything. Oy to the double oy. Such a thing I would see on a daytime soap opera. I did feel bad that they had Oliver pull up the frat boy tape on Asher and they're laughing about it with the exception of Connor. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want Oliver pulling up anything embarrassing on them.

 

Yes rape is an ugly thing but Bonnie please, you murdered someone. Yes, she did us a favor by killing off stank ass Rebecca but nevertheless, she took a life. Bonnie's indignation is as ridiculous as Nate's when he said Anni took him from his wife. I'm sure Asher wouldn't look at her the same if he finds out that she's a murderer on purpose and nothing but a big liar about Sam's death. I could be wrong but it looks like she pushed the DA off the roof. Not exactly sure if she did but if she did she is ridding the show of annoying ass characters, maybe Laurel should be next for next season.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any shortage of real-life people who hold parties and get so drunk that they are unaware that there's a sexual assault taking place at the party. That is, of course, taking Asher at face value that he was in no way involved with the actual sexual assault and that he didn't even intend to cause the coverup of it.

 

In terms of the prosecutor, other possibilities at present include

 

1. Laurel pushing prosecutor off the roof

2. A third party pushing her off the roof

3. Prosecutor accidentally falling

4. Prosecutor committing suicide

 

I'm confused on the Bonnie story.  Who was responsible for what happened to Bonnie when she was a child?  I thought I heard in A's and Eve's conversation that it was Sam?  Can anyone clarify?  Is that why A protecting Bonnie and her statement of loving Bonnie? 

 

Yeah, it gets so confusing.  Bonnie killed Rebecca but I still don't understand why.  Frank killed Lila because Sam told him to?  And Wes killed Sam to protect Rebecca.  Haha.  It sounded ridiculous when I just typed that but it really is a good story.  

 

Bonnie killed Rebecca because she is ride-or-die for Anni, and she figured (correctly IMO) that Rebecca could not be trusted to stay silent about a) Wes's killing of Sam and the M4's coverup b) the M4's kidnapping of Rebecca and c) Anni's involvement in both a and b.

 

Frank killed Lila because Sam told him to and in telling him to, Sam claimed Frank owed him. The show hasn't yet explained this.

 

Does marital privilege protect spouses enough that if Connor and Oliver got married, Connor could tell Oliver the truth? Because Oliver thinks Connor is just being a priss, and Connor can't protect him if he continues to think this. Though I guess it's too late for that, now....

 

If Connor and Oliver got married and Connor was told the truth, Oliver could not be forced to testify against Connor. 

 

But because Oliver is a decent human being, he very well might voluntarily testify against Connor and he would be free to do so.

 

There would also not be anything preventing him from testifying against the rest of the M4, leaving anonymous tips, etc.

 

I think that Connor could probably if he wanted to tell enough of the truth, or a convincing enough lie, to get Oliver the heck away from the toxic swamp that is the Law Offices of Annalise Keating.

 

Basically, I think they've got two options with Eve. She's either an Anna-light (we saw hints here with evidence tampering), which I don't need diverting story time from the general madness. Or she's a putz who buys Anna's line, hook and sinker, in which case I don't respect her or want her. Nate is tied in to the story, and gave them an "in" to the police end of things (before they really wrecked that, but it might be revived as the flash forwards have been hinting with Nate in a cruiser), and seemed a lot more plot relevant. Consider this: the COTWs are frequently some pretty weak tea (which I forgive, because there's enough other stuff going on), and the last thing I need to see is another lawyer doing lawyerly-but-unrelated-to-the-arc things. So, please, no Eve as a regular. That would just chew up screen time better devoted to making AK's COTWs a little less weak. (Because forgiving that weakness isn't at all the same thing as welcoming it.)

...

Asher's video was AWESOME. lol. Totally on the nose. He can stay. Also it was nice to see them laughing, even if they're dicks for treating a colleague like that. Seriously hostile work environment. And lethal, which I guess should matter more.

 

I don't think Eve has to be one or the other. 

 

I think she could be a friend/lover, an equal, a confidant and a sounding board. IMO, Anni (and the show) really needs someone who is not cowed by Anni, subordinate to her, and someone who she can actually be real with, someone she can't manipulate. Unfortunately, Nate doesn't fit that bill. Eve could.

 

Dude, what she did with the video was illegal. You can't casually keep child pornography on thumb drive, even if you are a lawyer. Much like drugs or murder weapons, that shit goes into police evidence. So it's super messed up that she even has something like that, not to mention how many levels that it's wrong to show its contents to someone else. You can go to jail for having and/or watching something like that.

 

I am assuming that Anni has the video because it was evidence in either a case against Bonnie's dad or Bonnie. (There's some chance that she has it because Sam treated her and she raided Sam's files for it, I suppose).

 

So it would presumably be legal for Anni to possess the video (how else would you defend a person in a child pornography case or child sexual abuse case without having access to the key evidence). 

 

It certainly would be unethical for Anni to show that to anyone, and there would probably be a protective order in place to prevent showing it to anyone not on the case, making it illegal too. But Anni doing something illegal? Must be a day that ends in "y."

[discoprincess]

So they made Asher not part of the rape, but have him downstairs drunk to do much of anything. Oy to the double oy. Such a thing I would see on a daytime soap opera.

One Life to Live had a similar storyline back in the 1990s (featuring Todd, Marty and having Kevin Buchanan being to innocent one).

[karmas bitch]

When Annalise and Frank were talking at the beginning of the episode and he asked her if he could do anything for her and she said "kill the DA" Franks expression was all "challenge accepted".

I love this show and as much as I love Eve, there isn't any sexual checistry between her and Annalise. It seems forced and a bit ackward especially the scene where they are sitting in the car. I'd rather them but just friends.

Bonnie and Annalise's fight was awesome, just heartbreaking as well when Annalise broke down in tears after Bonnie stormed out of the room.

[pennben]

If Connor and Oliver got married and Connor was told the truth, Oliver could not be forced to testify against Connor. 

 

But because Oliver is a decent human being, he very well might voluntarily testify against Connor and he would be free to do so.

 

 

Oliver could voluntarily testify against Connor, but he could not testify as to anything that Connor told him during the marriage.  That is considered "spousal communication" that Connor would have the right to enforce be held in confidence.

[Chrissytd]

So is it next week where we find out who shoots Annalise?

No. I believe we find out on the winter finale which is the Thursday after next (Nov 19th).

[Chicago Redshirt]

Oliver could voluntarily testify against Connor, but he could not testify as to anything that Connor told him during the marriage.  That is considered "spousal communication" that Connor would have the right to enforce be held in confidence.

 

My bad. There are two separate privileges that come with marriage, and I was just thinking of the "you can't be forced to testify against your spouse" one rather than the "you can't share spousal communications" one.

 

It would not, however, stop Oliver from outing the M4 in other ways than testifying or sharing what Connor told him. For example, Oliver could voluntarily talk about all the guilty behavior Connor displayed just after the killing.

 

This all could be potential reasons Connor would not want to let Oliver into the circle of trust. 

 

Also by involving Oliver in the ongoing coverup, Connor might create a scenario wherein Oliver because a defendant in his own right for accessory after the fact or some such. In such a scenario, Oliver would be able to testify about his conversations with Connor despite the marital communications privilege.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[possibilities]

Thanks for the clarifications about spousal privilege.

 

I think Bonnie would have preferred to go to jail than to have that video shown-- or at least to have been offered a chance to decide for herself. I think that is why she was so upset with Annalise; Annalise decided for her, like she was a child, instead of offering her a choice like a client or an adult would get. And that pushed all of Bonnie's buttons.

 

I don't think Annalise did it to hurt her, I think she really was trying to help. But their relationship is toxic because of the parent-child overtones, which we've seen before. I think Annalise and Bonnie both have problems behaving as though others are their equals. They are used to having to fix everything (or thinking they do), and putting "rescuer" above "collaborator" every time. We've seen it again and again. Bonnie killing Rebecca was like that, too. Annalise was furious, but Bonnie truly thought she was helping.

 

I will say this, though: Rape is terrible. Gang rape and child rape especially so. But it's possible to heal, and the show presents women as victims in an attempt to garner sympathy for them and show the seriousness of the crime, but kind of fails to show women as survivors who are victorious despite the evil. And it's starting to bother me. The goal of recovery is not that everyone feel sorry for you. It's that perpetrators be held accountable and survivors be treated with respect. The show itself is kind of patronizing, just like Annalise is to Bonnie.

 

I watched the show before going to sleep last night, and dreamed I was among the group when the Annalise shooting/DA over the balcony stuff was happening. There were snipers shooting at all of us and then they set the mansion on fire to smoke out the ones who had not yet been shot. It was exhausting. I think it was my brain's way of saying this show keeps finding ways to punch the viewers, and it's working. Seeing Oliver disappeared was hell. But even seeing Michaela enthusiastically encouraging him to participate in the Keating Shenanigans, hurt me. She's supposed to be his and Connor's friend, and she didn't want to protect him.

 

In a way, Connor and Wes are the two who are still resisting the Annalise Way Of Doing Things, and Asher is still not completely clear on just what her way is (though his participation in roping in the doorman means he's got less and less excuse for not catching on). Laurel and Michaela have now embraced it fully. They're grateful and want to be included more in the inner circle, rather than looking for a way out. I thought Laurel was too independent, and Michaela was too invested in her self-image as a "good person and respectable" for them to be the ones to succumb. It's interesting to see, also, how Oliver feels like it's totally cool to do the hacking, like it's fun and games, without realizing how dangerous the whole situation is.

Edited November 6, 2015 by possibilities

[Artsda]

That episode was great, love the suspense and final scene of everyone being on different levels of the mansion.

[krimimimi]

In terms of the prosecutor, other possibilities at present include

1. Laurel pushing prosecutor off the roof

I thought we saw Laurel with Wes at the time of the crash? Just like Michaela was with Connor. Which still leaves Bonnie and Asher as possibilities. And actually Anna, because in the scene early this season where we were shown Connor freaking out over her body, he had to run past Sinclaire, so clearly he goes back in and maybe Anna hasn't even been shot yet/before Sinclaire falls? Plus everyone else (Nate, the siblings, the cousin, Frank) not yet accounted for.

I don't think Eve has to be one or the other.

I think she could be a friend/lover, an equal, a confidant and a sounding board. IMO, Anni (and the show) really needs someone who is not cowed by Anni, subordinate to her, and someone who she can actually be real with, someone she can't manipulate. Unfortunately, Nate doesn't fit that bill. Eve could.

Our assessments aren't mutually exclusive. Eve remains a lawyer, and whether she's a friend/lover/sounding board, she would need a story. That role, whichever it is, would still need a tone, and I think it would be extremely difficult to bring in an equal at this point in the story. And I really don't want Anna 2.0. Anna-lite, or Anna's doormat/victim redux, so that's going to be tricky trying to satisfy me using Eve.*

(* If years of television viewing have taught me one thing, it's that the makers are completely disinterested in satisfying me, so it's not like I think that's an argument with any weight. Sadly.)

As things stand, plenty of us were questioning whether Anna made last week's cobbler (I think she did. Cobbler goes quicker than shopping would, but that's not to say I think she wouldn't lie about it.), so no matter how she interacts with Eve, there will be plenty of us side-eyeing anything she says or does there. I'm not sure she's ever real with anyone, in part because she can't be for legal reasons. (Mainly no desire to land herself in jail.) But my problem is it won't give me any more realness for Anna, because I don't trust it, and it doesn't give me depth of feeling, because from what I've seen, that has no more convincing basis than her relationship with Nate. YMMV, of course.

If you bring in a new partner/character, you bring in new stories. (Michaela's fiance is gone, as is Laurel's lawyer. Oliver is plot relevant, as was the horrid Rebecca. And Asher/Bonnie are clearly both involved in our story.) Now they haven't shown much of Sam or Nate's work lives, and needn't show Eve's either, but both of their stories tied in to the situation we currently have. Sam's infidelity and Lila's resultant murder. Nate's wife's story permitted all kinds of good stuff. His position as a suspect, his framing, his plotting with Rebecca which led to Sam's death(!). The "adultress" branding of Anna and general "slut" shaming from Sinclaire, as well as the current threat as to Nia's cause of death. Both of their stories fold in nicely to the madness. But each new character has to either fit in to that tapestry, which becomes increasingly less likely as time goes by, or steals time from the main plot, where we already have an over abundance of poorly sketched characters running around. (They could really take a page from Elementary's book on that front.) And of course the neglected COTWs that could use improving. Whatever weirdness is going on, it's taking place against a backdrop of day to day life (as it should), so it would be nice if that were more engaging, while giving the characters a chance to coalesce and then shine.

Re the video Anna showed Asher: we only saw the beginning, and don't know what it contained. Stating the obvious here, but what we saw was on national TV and (presumably) legal. What Asher saw might not have gone any futher than that. But if I had been shown something like that and told it was an acquaintance, I would have still felt ... comfortable is so not the right word here .... justified? in drawing conclusions as to the nature of that relationship and the rest of the video's unseen contents. So I could see that doing the same for Asher. But possession of that video is not illegal, or y'all need to scrub those HTGAWM eps off your DVRs now guys.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Guess I'm going against the trend here, but Eve works for me in small doses, and I really don't need to see that much more of her. I buy Anna's sincerity with her about as much as I do with Nate. (Which is to say, I think she cares some, but that only goes so|far with her.) And I just don't see Eve as the great love of her life, certainly no more so than Nate, so she isn't adding any depth to Anna for me there.

 

Trust me I am no super fan of Eve.  Famke Janssen's face really bothers me, it makes me uncomfortable to look at it.  It's all smoothed over and Botoxed or something.

 

I'm all about Nate for any reason whatsoever.

 

So Sam really sexually assaulted Bonnie, Annalise was the only one that knew, and then Annalise told Asher?  Is that what happened here?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[represent]

 

So Sam really sexually assaulted Bonnie, Annalise was the only one that knew, and then Annalise told Asher?  Is that what happened here?

That wasn't Sam on that tape, was it?

 

I didn't get that. 

 

I just heard Bonnie tell Anna that Sam wouldn't have told her secret. 

[truthaboutluv]

So Sam really sexually assaulted Bonnie, Annalise was the only one that knew, and then Annalise told Asher?  Is that what happened here?

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was Bonnie's father who sexually abused her when she was a child but Annalise and judging by her comment, Sam as well, knew. Maybe Bonnie too was at one point Sam's patient or just being a psychologist he figured it out much like he did with Annalise and her sexual abuse 

[sjohnson]

I've been looking at the recaps instead of watching the show, which has become unbearable, plus Elementary is back.

But. how can the show possibly play Bonnie the cold-blooded murderer as righteous judge condemning someone for not instantly throwing off a drunk and taking decisive action, then hiding this willful sin of omission? Or have I misread the recap somehow?

[Ms Blue Jay]

Oh so Bonnie was upset that Annalise told Asher about Bonnie's father?   Okay I was confused.

 

Because Bonnie did imply to Asher that she had to kill Sam because he assaulted her (didn't she?), but that was obviously made up... 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[UncleChuck]

As with almost every night scene on this show, everything was so dark as to be almost un-watchable, but they included a very gruesome detail that I nearly missed...

As the D.A.'s body fell through the frame (of the screen)  to the pavement, as soon as she plummeted out of the bottom of the frame there was a disturbing "THUD" followed immediately by a fountain of sprayed blood.

Thanks to CSI and Bones and other shows, we get accustomed to lots of blood and guts and bone on our screens, but that fountain of blood was gasp-worthy.

[represent]

OK, so has anyone actually done a body count yet? What number death are we up to?

Edited November 6, 2015 by represent

[HalcyonDays]

Still, Eve's pregnant pause after Annalise said "It's him" certainly hints strongly that he's Anni's son or some other relative (nephew? half brother?)

 

Nephew or half-brother just doesn't have that impact. When she uttered that line, I was like, "Yup, Wes is SO her son!" That's why she's so protective and lax with him. Dammit, this show.

 

Fabulous show, great episode. Laurel and Frank, her talking in the accent was hilarious. Asher and Bonnie! Bonnie has every right to feel and react as she did - she is seeing things/reacting through her own personal experience. And I have to say, the actor who plays Asher is good. He can do the goofball, but this episode he was so good, with his remorse and guilt, etc. And for the first time, I found him really attractive. *shrug*

 

Love that Connor doesn't want Oliver to get too much into Annalise's world. He knows what happens, has experienced it, therefore is trying to protect someone he loves. So sweet.

 

Nate actually got the nurse to switch the samples. Excellent. Loved Eve's play on the case. Not gonna lie - I totally agree with her (the nurse's) sentiment. I'm sorry, but suffering as Nia and others would have, simply because of antiquanted beliefs and religious BS. I've experienced it, and would never wish that kind of suffering on anyone. If a person wants to go, do what you can to let them go.

 

Love the teaser at the end "Next episode, we find out who really shot Annalise"! Based on who they showed in the final scene, we most likely can rule all of those people out.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Oh so Bonnie was upset that Annalise told Asher about Bonnie's father?   Okay I was confused.

 

Because Bonnie did imply to Asher that she had to kill Sam because he assaulted her (didn't she?), but that was obviously made up... 

Yes, Bonnie was upset  about  Anni telling Asher about her molestation (as well as IMO that Anni made her think that she was the one who saved the day to get Asher not to testify when it was in fact Anni who did it)..

 

Bonnie did more than just imply. She straight up told Asher she killed Sam because he was sexually assaulting her, but yes, that was a lie.

 

We actually saw Sam make moves/try to kiss/actually kiss Bonnie. But any notion of Sam attempting to sexually assault Bonnie seems baseless, and we of course know was not a cause of his death because Wes killed him.

 

OK, so has anyone actually done a body count yet? What number death are we up to?

 

Not that many (excluding cases of the week). My count is 8. (Including cases of the week would probably add another 15-20, as there's about a murder case a week on average. Some weeks the COTW is not murder, but I'm sure there have been some cases where two or more have been killed, so it probably balances out.).

 

Lila - murdered by Frank at Sam's direction; public presumably believes Sam murdered Lila himself.

 

Sam - killed by Wes with Michaela, Connor, Laurel and Rebecca having direct involvement in the coverup and all potentially subject to murder charges under the felony murder rule. Rebecca and Nate are guilty of murdering Sam under felony-murder (since the two plotted to have Rebecca break into the Keating home and steal Sam's computer data, and the death occurred in the course of committing that felony). Anni, Frank and Bonnie all have potential exposure as accessories after the fact. As far as we know, the public presumably thinks either that Anni and/or Nate killed Sam. That is what the prosecution has thought, anyway.

 

Rebecca - killed by Bonnie for Anni's protection. Wes and Levi (Rebecca's foster brother) believe Anni and/or Frank may have killed Rebecca. The public at large, as far as we know, has no idea Rebecca has either disappeared or died.

 

Mama and Papa Hapstall - killer(s) unknown. The prosecution thinks that Catherine and Caleb killed them, and their prosecution is still going on.

 

Racist Aunt Hapstall - killer(s) unknown. The prosecution pursued the theory that Caleb killed her, but when it came out that evidence may have been planted, charges were dropped.

 

ADA Emily Sinclair - killer(s) unknown

 

Nia Lahey - killed by Nate in assisted suicide. Prosecution tried to pin death on Nate, but Nate literally had evidence tampered with to clear him.

 

Feel free to add any that I've overlooked

[blackwing]

I don't understand Bonnie's indignation either.  She is a killer.  Whether she did it at Annalise's direction or not, she still did it.  She seems very loyal to Annalise, and Annalise is very loyal to her.  One thing that seems certain is that Annalise seems to know what she is doing and does everything for a reason.  Annalise showed Asher the video to explain to him why he couldn't testify and send Bonnie to jail.  At this point, Asher believes that Bonnie killed Sam because he was sexually assaulting her, and she has a history of sexual assault.  

 

I also don't understand why Annalise would have this video in the first place.  I don't know how old Bonnie is supposed to be, but the actress looks very rough and weathered to me.  I'd say Bonnie is about 35.  In the video, Bonnie was about 10.  So this is a 25 year old recording.  Why would she save something like that after all these years?  And why would Bonnie be so ashamed of it that she didn't want her own supposed boyfriend to know what happened to her?

 

I have no idea what's going on anymore in present day.  I don't know why there seem to be two teams, Laurel/Wes vs. Connor/Michaela.  None of it makes sense to me but I guess we will find out.  There better be some answers in two weeks as they promise, because I'm almost at the point where I don't care.  They are all varying degrees of evil and wrong.

 

I couldn't care less about what happens to Asher.  I loathe this character so much.  I see no redeeming qualities in him whatsoever.  He's not attractive (but he seems to think he is), he's not funny, he's pretty much an all around douchebag.  I guess he supposedly has lots of money, but it seems his dad cut him off last episode so he might not even have that anymore.  I have no idea why Bonnie is with him to begin with.  I suppose, as mentioned upthread, he is there to remind the viewer about rich white privilege, since the other four students are a gay male, a black male, a black female, and a Hispanic female, all of whom must have experienced discrimination at some point in their lives.

 

Annalise as Wes' mom.  Makes a lot of sense.  Although I thought she had fertility issues?  I could have sworn during Season 1 there was some reference to her and Sam never being able to have had a baby?  It makes more sense if she represented his parents and something went bad and she feels responsible for Wes.  Which explains how he got into law school off the waitlist and how she is always looking out for him.  Her interactions with him are particularly inappropriate.  I've never heard of a professor showing up to a student's apartment unannounced late at night.  There is obviously a connection.

[LaJefaza]

Watching this show with someone who both doesn't keep up enough to have seen all the episodes and insists on talking/asking questions when you have no way of pausing the show is an incredibly frustrating experience.

 

Just needed to vent about that a little.

And here I thought my husband had gone to bed after he finally wandered off last night (to my relief). I had no idea he came over to your house to annoy you too. I'm so sorry. Will lock him in the den next week so we can both watch in PEACE, ugh.

[krimimimi]

Taking a page from the M4's book, duct tape is apparently recommended. Y'know, for making people stay put and/or quiet.

[dgpolo]

 

Not that many (excluding cases of the week). My count is 8. (Including cases of the week would probably add another 15-20, as there's about a murder case a week on average. Some weeks the COTW is not murder, but I'm sure there have been some cases where two or more have been killed, so it probably balances out.).

 

Lila - murdered by Frank at Sam's direction; public presumably believes Sam murdered Lila himself.

 

Sam - killed by Wes with Michaela, Connor, Laurel and Rebecca having direct involvement in the coverup and all potentially subject to murder charges under the felony murder rule. Rebecca and Nate are guilty of murdering Sam under felony-murder (since the two plotted to have Rebecca break into the Keating home and steal Sam's computer data, and the death occurred in the course of committing that felony). Anni, Frank and Bonnie all have potential exposure as accessories after the fact. As far as we know, the public presumably thinks either that Anni and/or Nate killed Sam. That is what the prosecution has thought, anyway.

 

Rebecca - killed by Bonnie for Anni's protection. Wes and Levi (Rebecca's foster brother) believe Anni and/or Frank may have killed Rebecca. The public at large, as far as we know, has no idea Rebecca has either disappeared or died.

 

Mama and Papa Hapstall - killer(s) unknown. The prosecution thinks that Catherine and Caleb killed them, and their prosecution is still going on.

 

Racist Aunt Hapstall - killer(s) unknown. The prosecution pursued the theory that Caleb killed her, but when it came out that evidence may have been planted, charges were dropped.

 

ADA Emily Sinclair - killer(s) unknown

 

Nia Lahey - killed by Nate in assisted suicide. Prosecution tried to pin death on Nate, but Nate literally had evidence tampered with to clear him.

 

Feel free to add any that I've overlooked

 

 

 

 

 

First level: Annaliese- she's the one around whom everyone else orbits.

 

Second level: Sam, Frank and Bonnie (Frank killed Lila at Sam's behest and Bonnie killed Rebecca to help Anni)

 

Third level: Wes, Michaela, Lauren, Connor, and Asher (Wes killed Sam (though I still have doubts about that) to protect Rebecca)

 

Fourth level: these are the people that are only involve because they are/were involved with someone above so Nate (Anni's lover) assisted in the suicide of his wife Nia, Rebecca (Wes' lover and I don't count her as a COTW because she was his lover before she was a client), Oliver (Connor's lover), Levi (Michaela's lover), and Eve (Anni's lover)

 

The Hapstall's I don't count as they were killed by someone outside of Anni's group.

 

Sinclair would only be counted if it turns out someone in Anni's group did it.

 

Anyway that's how I see it. My computer decided to update in the middle of me typing this so I hope it makes sense.

[Dowel Jones]

I was somewhat surprised that the DA would pursue a case against Nate, based on flimsy evidence.  Granted, it's in the service of the plot, but DA's rarely pursue cases unless they have a mountain of evidence.    Even if the nurse had not switched blood samples, it still would not be clear "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Nate had possession of the pills, or that he had actually given them to her.  Eve could easily have asked those questions of any prosecution witness.  A circumstantial case would be very difficult, given a jury's possible sympathy for the dying woman.

 

Remember Damages?  The closing scenes were never exactly as they were shown to the audience.  We'll just have to wait on the reason for Ms. Sinclair's death. 

[pennben]

Annalise's uncle (I think...I'm referring to whoever abused Annalise as a child) was killed by Annalise's mom. Not sure if that counts in the total since it was pre-show timeline.

Edited November 7, 2015 by pennben

[Broken Ox]

Nate actually got the nurse to switch the samples. Excellent. Loved Eve's play on the case.

Once the nurse had her impassioned outburst I thought Eve's strategy was going to be to pin it on her.

[pennben]

Eve knew she was going to lose in pre-trial.  I thought when she saw the impassioned outburst, she decided the best defense was to go to a jury trial and let the nurse explode again on the stand like that, saying it shouldn't be illegal for assisted-suicide...for those to help loved ones with a terminal illness die on their on terms when the alternative is more months spent in agony and suffering before inevitable death, and build her defense around that. I thought she was going for what is known as "jury nullification", wherein the jury knows that someone is technically guilty of a crime, but they don't think they should be found guilty or punished, such that they declare the person 'not guilty' despite what the law says they should do.

 

I forgot about the 'shortcuts' available in this particular jurisdiction!!

 

ETA: 

 

 

 

Watching this show with someone who both doesn't keep up enough to have seen all the episodes and insists on talking/asking questions when you have no way of pausing the show is an incredibly frustrating experience.

 
Just needed to vent about that a little.

 

And here I thought my husband had gone to bed after he finally wandered off last night (to my relief). I had no idea he came over to your house to annoy you too. I'm so sorry. Will lock him in the den next week so we can both watch in PEACE, ugh.

 

Still laughing out loud about this exchange! 

Edited November 7, 2015 by pennben

[Hamatron]

Dude, what Bonnie did with killing Rebecca was illegal. You don't casually wrap a plastic bag around someone's head, even if you think you're protecting someone.

Yeah. I'm not saying that murder is legal. I appreciate two people pointing that out to me, LOL. I just think the whole business with the thumbdrive child pornography is super weird and there really isn't a logical explanation for it. Also, if I was a sexual abuse survivor and someone showed my love interest a video of me being sexually abused as a child? Yeah, that would really mess me up and make me angry. (And she doesn't even know that yet. She just knows Analise told him about it.)

But I'm not saying murder is okay or anything. It's not like it's one or the other here. But people who kill don't just stop having emotions or let people shit on them because they killed someone.

I get why she's mad. She's still a bad guy for killing someone though, obviously.

Also:

 

So it would presumably be legal for Anni to possess the video (how else would you defend a person in a child pornography case or child sexual abuse case without having access to the key evidence).

I don't think so. I think that is the kind of evidence that would confiscated. I would have to ask a lawyer friend, but I think that would be the kind of thing where if it was explicit you wouldn't have access to it casually or at all, even as a lawyer.

Does anyone here know? Do lawyers get to hold onto illegal material like child porn for the sake of their case? Or what is the policy when dealing with stuff like that? I know in a lot of cases dealing with minors files and evidence is sealed, but I don't know what that entails.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Hamatron

[ToukieSmith]

I was somewhat surprised that the DA would pursue a case against Nate, based on flimsy evidence.  Granted, it's in the service of the plot, but DA's rarely pursue cases unless they have a mountain of evidence.    Even if the nurse had not switched blood samples, it still would not be clear "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Nate had possession of the pills, or that he had actually given them to her.  Eve could easily have asked those questions of any prosecution witness.  A circumstantial case would be very difficult, given a jury's possible sympathy for the dying woman.

 

Remember Damages?  The closing scenes were never exactly as they were shown to the audience.  We'll just have to wait on the reason for Ms. Sinclair's death. 

 

Actually, I thought they were going to throw suspicion on the nurse since she started spouting a right to die philosophy.  Her outburst made her a perfect patsy.

 

The DA's death may have been an accident.  She may have just fallen from one of the balconies.

Edited November 7, 2015 by ToukieSmith

[morgankobi]

Not that many (excluding cases of the week). My count is 8. (Including cases of the week would probably add another 15-20, as there's about a murder case a week on average. Some weeks the COTW is not murder, but I'm sure there have been some cases where two or more have been killed, so it probably balances out.).

 

Seriously laughing that eight murders is "not that many" murders for a group of law students and their teacher in the first year of law school!

[chrisvee]

The DA's body dropped so heavily that it sounded like dead weight. Was she unconscious or already dead?

Show is pretty ballsy to kidnap the only character anyone cares about. Ollie! ::sob::

[DeeDee79]

Annalise's actions and motivations may be beyond the pale but she's still more interesting to watch than any of these other characters. Bonnie and Nate can have a seat; pushing blame on Annalise doesn't erase what they've done. Connor was one of the more interesting characters last season and now he bores me whenever he's on screen; Oliver is the more interesting partner of that twosome. I do hope that he's not killed off; of all of the characters in turmoil we've seen so far he's the only one that hasn't deserved it.

[wanderingstar]

The DA's death may have been an accident.  She may have just fallen from one of the balconies.

I had the same thought after watching this episode.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Gillian Rosh

[possibilities]

The DA's body dropped so heavily that it sounded like dead weight. Was she unconscious or already dead?

I agree. Also, if she was alive and conscious, you'd think she'd scream and flail a bit when it happened.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I was somewhat surprised that the DA would pursue a case against Nate, based on flimsy evidence.  Granted, it's in the service of the plot, but DA's rarely pursue cases unless they have a mountain of evidence.    Even if the nurse had not switched blood samples, it still would not be clear "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Nate had possession of the pills, or that he had actually given them to her.  Eve could easily have asked those questions of any prosecution witness.  A circumstantial case would be very difficult, given a jury's possible sympathy for the dying woman.

The prosecutors in this jurisdiction are a rare combination of inept, corrupt and arrogant.

 

Anni has uncovered probably 3 cases where they or the police have withheld exculpatory evidence or planted inculpatory evidence.

 

In the latest COTW, the prosecutor was sleeping with the wife of the victim and presumably knew that the hubby's suicide was because of what he did. Yet for whatever reasons he chose to prosecute Anni's client despite his conflict of interest and despite his presumed knowledge that he was going after an innocent man.

 

In terms of the case against Nate, Sinclair said there were records showing Nate visited at X time, and pretty much exactly as much time as it would take for her to OD after that visit was when Nia was found dead. With enough shade thrown at Nate for screwing a woman while his wife was dying of cancer, I bet a jury would vote to convict.

 

Annalise's uncle (I think...I'm referring to whoever abused Annalise as a child) was killed by Annalise's mom. Not sure if that counts in the total since it was pre-show timeline.

 

We would also have to factor in Mama Wes's suicide I guess.But I would think we don't go that far.

 

I don't think so. I think that is the kind of evidence that would confiscated. I would have to ask a lawyer friend, but I think that would be the kind of thing where if it was explicit you wouldn't have access to it casually or at all, even as a lawyer.

Does anyone here know? Do lawyers get to hold onto illegal material like child porn for the sake of their case? Or what is the policy when dealing with stuff like that? I know in a lot of cases dealing with minors files and evidence is sealed, but I don't know what that entails.

Happen to be a lawyer, although I don't practice criminal law. I don't see any way a lawyer could defend a case of child pornography possession or similar without having independent access to the alleged child pornography. Remember, for something to be a crime, there must be both the guilty act and the guilty mindset. 

 

A lawyer possessing child pornography to defend a client does not have the guilty mindset to make it a crime.

 

Seriously laughing that eight murders is "not that many" murders for a group of law students and their teacher in the first year of law school!

 

What, I'm pretty sure I killed like a dozen people midway through my 1L year, and covered up another dozen by my friends. :)

 

Seriously, I'm grading on a curve. Any crime show is going to have people capped pretty regularly.

[Blue Plastic]

I like Anni & Eve, she's much better when she's around her then she is when she's around everyone else.

I actually find their scenes together kind of calming, which is weird!  Probably Annaliese is not any more genuine with Eve than she is with Nate or anyone else.  But I guess at this point their relationship is the least contentious one that Annaliese has right now.  So when they talk, there is less tension than in most of the other relationships on the show except for Oliver and Connor, who are more genuine but I'm just waiting for something bad to happen to them, especially now with weird stalker adopted cousin Hapstall whatever his name is.

 

The thing with Wes/Annaliese looks so much like he must be her son, but I'm thinking they are probably pulling our collective chain.  Eve said something like, "You're such a good person" (ha ha!) after Annaliese said, "It's him."  That leads me to think Wes isn't her son.  If he is, then why does helping him make Annaliese "such a good person"?  ISTM more like Wes is someone that she has decided to help for some other reason out of the supposed goodness of her heart with no benefit to herself, or at least that's what Eve thinks.

 

Cases of the week = so boring.

 

Stupid Tivo cut off the very end so I didn't get to see the little tacked on bit of new information at the Hapstall mansion, but I take it they made it appear that Bonnie pushed the annoying assistant DA to her death?  That still doesn't explain the blood all over Bonnie's camisole unless she beat her up first or also shot Annaliese.  WTH?

[Fredward]

Do Frank and Oliver know each other? They seemed quite chummy for people who only interacted in an official capacity.

[krimimimi]

Stupid Tivo cut off the very end so I didn't get to see the little tacked on bit of new information at the Hapstall mansion, but I take it they made it appear that Bonnie pushed the annoying assistant DA to her death? That still doesn't explain the blood all over Bonnie's camisole unless she beat her up first or also shot Annaliese. WTH?

I was going to describe it, but some kind soul has already youtubed it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iS4KhWdPHX8

And, because 1) some people sometimes are made of awesome and 2) anything you want or need, somebody has probably come up with, the dude also strung all the flash forwards together in (what I think is) correct chronological order.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8OZ3cyhZfM8

(I don't have a youtube account. If one of you guys does, would you mind thumbs upping that for me? Thanks, xox mimi)

Posted upthread (or was it spoilerfree spec?) that I think Connor still needs to go back into the house post "splat," so I'm betting Anna hasn't been shot yet in this flash forward. Which the string of videos tends to support. Remember he needs to ultimately leave the house in a panic and covered in Anna's blood, and that's after the other 3 have left, which they haven't in today's FF.

Also there's no way he's that calm in today's FF if Ollie is still missing, or he thinks Ollie's still in harm's way. (I just need to keep telling myself that... ::shudder::)

[PrincessTT]

Posted upthread (or was it spoilerfree spec?) that I think Connor still needs to go back into the house post "splat," so I'm betting Anna hasn't been shot yet in this flash forward. Which the string of videos tends to support. Remember he needs to ultimately leave the house in a panic and covered in Anna's blood, and that's after the other 3 have left, which they haven't in today's FF.

 

In the latest FF though, it starts with Connor saying "we know better this time" which implies* that somebody has already been injured/killed and he wants to go straight to the police rather than doing a cover-up. 

 

So either, Annalise has already been shot and that's what Wes and Laurel are trying to stop him from reporting... Or the K4 injured/killed the prosecutor and Connor was going to report that; then Bonnie comes along and throws her off the roof as a cover-up to make it look like she died after falling accidentally

 

*I know that this show implies a lot of things that turn out to be nothing like what you think they should be, so I tend to take any implications with a pinch of salt now.

[Tiger]

When we saw Bonnie shove Sinclair off the roof, I was thinking about that we never saw who told Frank to kill Lila. I think Bonnie gave the order, and that Rebecca wasn't her first (direct) victim either.

[racked]

Does anyone here know? Do lawyers get to hold onto illegal material like child porn for the sake of their case? Or what is the policy when dealing with stuff like that? I know in a lot of cases dealing with minors files and evidence is sealed, but I don't know what that entails.

Another lawyer here - She would have been given access to it during the trial, but she would never have been given a copy to take home, no. But do we think Anni defended Bonnie's father? I think she just got a copy through nefarious means. Or she had something to do with taking him down somehow.

I'm hoping Wes isn't her son. Though it does make her flirting with him even creepier in a way I can appreciate. This show does not hesitate to make every character a shade of awful.

[darkestboy]

Loved that episode but I really hope that Oliver isn't killed by Philip though.

 

Laughed at Frank's comment over spanking Oliver before Connor and even Annalise was nice to Oliver too.

 

Connor/Oliver are in my opinion one of the best couples on television at the moment so really hoping nothing bad happens to the latter.

 

Laurel had some interesting moments in this episode and the flashforwards certainly took an interesting enough turn too.

 

Annalise will either be Wes's mother or she'll just know more about him than she's already letting on.

 

Nice to see Eve again. Loved that character.

 

Bonnie is more interesting the darker she gets, especially during her scenes with Annalise this week.

 

The case of the week was boring but not enough to deter this episode, 9/10

[nutty1]

When we saw Bonnie shove Sinclair off the roof, I was thinking about that we never saw who told Frank to kill Lila. I think Bonnie gave the order, and that Rebecca wasn't her first (direct) victim either.

 

We didn't see Bonnie push her....they were implying it. Which makes me believe it wasn't Bonnie.

[Tiger]

We didn't see Bonnie push her....they were implying it. Which makes me believe it wasn't Bonnie.

Didn't he hear a push/shoving sound, immediately followed by a woman screaming, Sinclair hitting the ground, and then immediately pan-up to Bonnie?

Seriously, this may not have happened and if it didn't someone please tell me. This show is such a mindfawq that a few times I swore something either did or didn't happen on screen, when the opposite was actually true.

[krimimimi]

Didn't he hear a push/shoving sound, immediately followed by a woman screaming, Sinclair hitting the ground, and then immediately pan-up to Bonnie?

Seriously, this may not have happened and if it didn't someone please tell me. This show is such a mindfawq that a few times I swore something either did or didn't happen on screen, when the opposite was actually true.

I was going to describe it, but some kind soul has already youtubed it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iS4KhWdPHX8

If for whatever reason you can't see that clip where you are, basically, Wes hollars "Stop!" and M&C do, M starts to turn back towards Wes and Laurel, but Connor says "Michaela, no..." (or maybe "don't," not sure), but is interrupted by a supine Sinclaire sailing silently downward and splatting at their shoes. At which point M lets out a perfectly reasonable gasped scream. Understated, in fact.

And then we pan up past W&L to see Bonnie on the next balcony/terrace/whatever. But no shove is shown, no flailing, no scream prior to splat, so Sinclaire was probably dead or unconscious when she went over, and we don't know for sure Bonnie did it.

[Lady Calypso]

If for whatever reason you can't see that clip where you are, basically, Wes hollars "Stop!" and M&C do, M starts to turn back towards Wes and Laurel, but Connor says "Michaela, no..." (or maybe "don't," not sure), but is interrupted by a supine Sinclaire sailing silently downward and splatting at their shoes. At which point M lets out a perfectly reasonable gasped scream. Understated, in fact.

And then we pan up past W&L to see Bonnie on the next balcony/terrace/whatever. But no shove is shown, no flailing, no scream prior to splat, so Sinclaire was probably dead or unconscious when she went over, and we don't know for sure Bonnie did it.

 

Yeah, the implication seems to be that Bonnie did it, but that's why I think it isn't her. At least, I don't think Bonnie killed her, though she could have dumped the body over the railing to make people think she died from falling. It's why I think it could have been Asher. I know we don't see him, but if he did it accidentally (killed her, whether before Sinclair goes over or not), Bonnie would do anything to protect him. At any rate, it seems like Bonnie knows what happens to Sinclair, at the very least. The blood on Bonnie in the flashforward last episode ( a couple of episodes ago?) could have been Sinclair's, and I guess it's possible Asher could have done it. That flashforward episode seemed to imply Bonnie killed someone, due to the blood on her clothes, but I could easily buy her covering it up for Asher. Though, his going to the station does not seem to parallel him keeping quiet about being a witness to a crime, so it could very well be that Asher witnessed someone killing Sinclair, or shooting Annalise.

 

As for the rest of the episode, I think that it was solid enough. Connor's definitely changed since the pilot, in that he has grown attached to Oliver to the point of wanting to protect him from what he does. And now it looks like Oliver's been kidnapped, though I don't think Phillip is going to kill him. And now Connor's 'it's your fault' to Annalise makes sense. He's putting the blame on her, though I do think it's misguided blame, as Annalise actually had nothing to do with this, for once. The only thing she said to Oliver was that she was glad for his help. 

 

Wes can't be Annalise's son. People have been speculating that since the pilot. I like the idea of Annalise being Wes' mother's old lawyer and her failing a case, perhaps leading to Wes' mother's suicide. Plus, I know Eve technically said this part before the whole 'it's him', but she did bring up the fact that Annalise could sleep with Wes if she was interested, so... 

 

The flashforwards in this episode seemed to take place way earlier in the evening, which is an interesting jump. Trying to piece it together, it seems to take place before Annalise gets shot (they're all still too calm to me, even Connor) and the only thing I can think of that makes sense is that they're trying to cover up a crime, but not a 'life and death' crime. Laurel and Michaela, we know, have to be outside the house when Annalise gets shot (or perhaps they just got out of the house much, much faster), but Wes and Connor are in the house, which makes me think the next flashforward we see will have Annalise arriving at the house as the kids are trying to escape and Annalise is dragging the boys back in for whatever reason (maybe they've kidnapped Catherine or knocked her out, or maybe they just planted evidence). 

 

It's nice to see Annalise smile; I do think she's genuine with Eve, as they both seem to know each other really well. It's weird because now I can count two people Annalise is genuine with, and that's Wes and now Eve.

 

Bonnie's breakdown was good in terms of acting, but slightly annoying in terms of context. Her flipping out on Asher didn't resonate any feelings with me. We know she's lying to Asher about Sam's death, and we know she's killed Rebecca with little hesitation. Yet, she's willing to not forgive Asher for something that happened years ago? Sure, she might have deep, personal issues, but she's not being honest with Asher at all. I don't know; she has a reason to be angry, but not as angry as she presented herself before their final scene. And then her scene with Annalise was...I don't know, off placed slightly? I get the context, but it felt weird in some way. I'm still kind of processing that whole situation. 

 

I liked Laurel's role in the episode, though. I actually liked her and Annalise's conversation at the end, where Annalise told her that she didn't have to worry about her. It just gave a little bit more as to why her and Annalise don't have many one-on-one scenes together, but I like Laurel enough to want to see more of her. Frank was hilarious, and the case of the week was mostly just for filler, it seems. 

[secnarf]

Trust me I am no super fan of Eve.  Famke Janssen's face really bothers me, it makes me uncomfortable to look at it.  It's all smoothed over and Botoxed or something.

 

I'm all about Nate for any reason whatsoever.

 

So Sam really sexually assaulted Bonnie, Annalise was the only one that knew, and then Annalise told Asher?  Is that what happened here?

I think Famke Janssen is gorgeous, but that's just me :P

I don't think Sam assaulted Bonnie at all. If that happened, we have not been told about it. I don't think it has been implied at any point, either.

Asher realized that she shouldn't tell Bonnie that AK told him about her father molesting her, and so he quickly said he meant Sam - remember, Asher thinks that Sam tried to assault Bonnie and that's why Bonnie killed Sam.

 

When Annalise and Frank were talking at the beginning of the episode and he asked her if he could do anything for her and she said "kill the DA" Franks expression was all "challenge accepted".

I love this show and as much as I love Eve, there isn't any sexual checistry between her and Annalise. It seems forced and a bit ackward especially the scene where they are sitting in the car. I'd rather them but just friends.

I also loved the look on Frank's face after - he was seriously considering it. I wonder if he'd kill for AK as well, or if it was just some special debt he owed Sam.

I'm going to disagree about the sexual chemistry between Eve and Annalise - and I know it's been mentioned by a few different people that it doesn't seem like they have chemistry, but for me, from the very first scene Eve showed up in, I've thought it was very obvious that they used to be lovers, even before the show made that clear. The way Eve looked at Annalise in that first scene, the comment "you still don't like surprises" and the look she gave her with the little half-smile, were all dead giveaways for me, and I think that chemistry has continued between them.

 

Happen to be a lawyer, although I don't practice criminal law. I don't see any way a lawyer could defend a case of child pornography possession or similar without having independent access to the alleged child pornography. Remember, for something to be a crime, there must be both the guilty act and the guilty mindset. 

 

A lawyer possessing child pornography to defend a client does not have the guilty mindset to make it a crime.

 

I'm not too sure about the rules regarding keeping/turning in evidence, but while I definitely don't think it's a crime if she required child porn to defent a client in an active case, what about years later when the case is entirely closed?

And I definitely don't think it's okay to then show other people said video - that goes beyond simple possession.

 

I actually find their scenes together kind of calming, which is weird!  Probably Annaliese is not any more genuine with Eve than she is with Nate or anyone else.  But I guess at this point their relationship is the least contentious one that Annaliese has right now.  So when they talk, there is less tension than in most of the other relationships on the show except for Oliver and Connor, who are more genuine but I'm just waiting for something bad to happen to them, especially now with weird stalker adopted cousin Hapstall whatever his name is.

 

The thing with Wes/Annaliese looks so much like he must be her son, but I'm thinking they are probably pulling our collective chain.  Eve said something like, "You're such a good person" (ha ha!) after Annaliese said, "It's him."  That leads me to think Wes isn't her son.  If he is, then why does helping him make Annaliese "such a good person"?  ISTM more like Wes is someone that she has decided to help for some other reason out of the supposed goodness of her heart with no benefit to herself, or at least that's what Eve thinks.

 

I agree with all of this!

When I was initially watching the scene where Annalise says "it's him", I thought it meant Wes is her son, but then it was the "you're such a good person" response from Eve that made me think otherwise, because why would Eve say she's such a good person if she's helping out her son?

 

Annalise has had several miscarriages, but this doesn't necessarily mean she could never carry a baby to term (or near enough to term).