Leon Brown: So Here's Me

[Irate Panda]

On 2/2/2023 at 10:09 PM, Cetacean said:

As I recall, the postings from Chicago were all about pursuing a Masters in Social Work or somesuch while in Chicago (Loyola?).  As far as we know, Leon never actually finished there; there was certainly nothing posted about graduation.  As posting-happy as Leon is, I can't imagine staying silent about something like that. 

Leon certainly made a big deal about the Bali experience. You'd think Leon would be equally effusive about graduating with a Masters.

Yes, I’m curious as to if Leon finished graduate school. Seems like she or Audrey would have made a big deal about it or at least acknowledged it.  You’d also think Meri would have posted about Leon finishing graduate school.  I mean I’m sure Kody would have declined going to the graduation due to protuculs but I’m sure Meri would have been there cheering Leon on in between filtering pics and teaching Mosby how to be a boss babe because he’s in her downline.  Mosby doesn’t like to brag but I heard he has tens of dollars in sales , so basically he totally crushed and embarrassed Robyn and her closet.

 

*Im not sure why a pic of dogs wearing lulurags exist but here we are 🤭

Edited February 4, 2023 by Irate Panda

[TurtlePower]

9 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

According to several reddit comments recently, Leon is pursuing their doctorate in social work or some sort of related field. 

Ooof. I know a few PhDs and they said that at the PhD level, the backstabbing and cattiness is almost like middle school. They said it was a completely different experience than getting their masters, which was easy by comparison.

I have taken a few masters classes and considered a PhD, but the cost was the main deterrent. I was advised that unless I was prepared for ridicule and pettiness, a masters would do career-wise unless I wanted to become a professor (that academic world is also vicious I’m told). Any PhDs here have that experience or was yours fairly painless? 

The point of all that was I don’t see Leon as being able to handle defending their research without having a tantrum. Maybe it’s different for social work? Maybe tantrums are okay there? 🤷🏼‍♀️

[lookeyloo]

46 minutes ago, TurtlePower said:

Ooof. I know a few PhDs and they said that at the PhD level, the backstabbing and cattiness is almost like middle school. They said it was a completely different experience than getting their masters, which was easy by comparison.

I have taken a few masters classes and considered a PhD, but the cost was the main deterrent. I was advised that unless I was prepared for ridicule and pettiness, a masters would do career-wise unless I wanted to become a professor (that academic world is also vicious I’m told). Any PhDs here have that experience or was yours fairly painless? 

The point of all that was I don’t see Leon as being able to handle defending their research without having a tantrum. Maybe it’s different for social work? Maybe tantrums are okay there? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Okay I only have some experience to go by. I have an MSW. Later in my career (I didn't do therapy- more indirect as in program administration, research, etc). the last years before I retired I worked in the actual social work school I graduated from back when. Of course there were PhD candidates. And I was friendly and worked with them or had lunch etc. I don't remember any of what your friends told you. Mr lookeyloo got his PhD in Biochemistry during the time we met and got married. His friends in same boat were and are still friends. His issue was with his major professor who didn't want to help him complete because he would lose a trained worker who got publication. Two brothers got PhDs. No stories like yours. 
I wonder if Leon is actually going through a PHD program they are surrounded by a lot of folks who want them to understand themselves and what it takes to work through a program.  Unless they are doing a strictly web based program there will be interactions and feedback along the way.  A phd requires a dissertation. That isn't done in a vacuum. I am no fan of pretentious Leon but maybe when their brain develops fully they will be more mature. 

[ginger90]

I believe I posted this at the time.

 

From January 15, 2021:

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, lookeyloo said:

Okay I only have some experience to go by. I have an MSW. Later in my career (I didn't do therapy- more indirect as in program administration, research, etc). the last years before I retired I worked in the actual social work school I graduated from back when. Of course there were PhD candidates. And I was friendly and worked with them or had lunch etc. I don't remember any of what your friends told you. Mr lookeyloo got his PhD in Biochemistry during the time we met and got married. His friends in same boat were and are still friends. His issue was with his major professor who didn't want to help him complete because he would lose a trained worker who got publication. Two brothers got PhDs. No stories like yours. 
I wonder if Leon is actually going through a PHD program they are surrounded by a lot of folks who want them to understand themselves and what it takes to work through a program.  Unless they are doing a strictly web based program there will be interactions and feedback along the way.  A phd requires a dissertation. That isn't done in a vacuum. I am no fan of pretentious Leon but maybe when their brain develops fully they will be more mature. 

I have a Master's degree in Social Work and sat for two licensure tests - nothing but love and support from my classmates, coworkers and colleagues. Same is true for the many friends, coworkers and colleagues of mine who have, were and are completing their doctoral programs. Its not like they're competing for a finite number of degrees.

I think there are pretentious assholes sprinkled in our lives at ever stage and I'm sure they exist at the PhD level too.

So it seems Leon does have a Master's in something and is possibly pursuing a PhD. Most folks I know had to take breaks during their education to make money and also get real experience to make sure they were going in the right direction.

I hope everything works out for Leon including acquiring some humility.

[Absolom]

3 hours ago, TurtlePower said:

I have taken a few masters classes and considered a PhD, but the cost was the main deterrent. I was advised that unless I was prepared for ridicule and pettiness, a masters would do career-wise unless I wanted to become a professor (that academic world is also vicious I’m told). Any PhDs here have that experience or was yours fairly painless? 

All of my kids have doctorates and none have reported anything resembling middle school behavior.  It quite varies by field whether a doctorate is required or not.  For my older two, it was a requirement of their field.  I think my third didn't want to be the only one left out.  It wasn't wasted effort either, but not required.

I would have expected Meri at least to have posted if Leon had completed a master's or completed anything.  Given how many displays of books and notebooks and even posted papers there were from Chicago, Leon has had a drastic wake-up call or there is no academia going on now.  Looking at their TikTok, it's continued the downward slide that began in Chicago with the cooking videos.  I may never get the leftover potatoes and now the coffee out of my mind.  

[Cetacean]

24 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I may never get the leftover potatoes and now the coffee out of my mind.  

Makes me want to pluck that part of my brain out.  Blergh.

[Irate Panda]

9 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I believe I posted this at the time.

 

From January 15, 2021:

Ginger always coming through in the clutch withe the social media receipts.  BTW thank you for all the time now and in general to keep us filled in on the Brown Clowns social media.  It’s priceless entertainment.  I don’t follow these people, so I get my info here.  THANK YOU!!!

[Irate Panda]

6 hours ago, Absolom said:

All of my kids have doctorates and none have reported anything resembling middle school behavior.  It quite varies by field whether a doctorate is required or not.  For my older two, it was a requirement of their field.  I think my third didn't want to be the only one left out.  It wasn't wasted effort either, but not required.

I would have expected Meri at least to have posted if Leon had completed a master's or completed anything.  Given how many displays of books and notebooks and even posted papers there were from Chicago, Leon has had a drastic wake-up call or there is no academia going on now.  Looking at their TikTok, it's continued the downward slide that began in Chicago with the cooking videos.  I may never get the leftover potatoes and now the coffee out of my mind.  

What’s the leftover potatoes thing about?

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, Irate Panda said:

What’s the leftover potatoes thing about?

One of Leon's cooking videos showed the use of leftover potatoes in making a soggy breakfast.  

[TurtlePower]

18 hours ago, Absolom said:

All of my kids have doctorates and none have reported anything resembling middle school behavior.  It quite varies by field whether a doctorate is required or not.  For my older two, it was a requirement of their field.  I think my third didn't want to be the only one left out.  It wasn't wasted effort either, but not required.

I would have expected Meri at least to have posted if Leon had completed a master's or completed anything.  Given how many displays of books and notebooks and even posted papers there were from Chicago, Leon has had a drastic wake-up call or there is no academia going on now.  Looking at their TikTok, it's continued the downward slide that began in Chicago with the cooking videos.  I may never get the leftover potatoes and now the coffee out of my mind.  

Perhaps it’s just in academia where it’s more brutal (these particular people are/have been professors). Or perhaps their perception of it was different. 

That’s a relief, just in case I ever decide to go that route (which I likely won’t as a PhD isn’t necessary for me). 

[General Days]

 

22 hours ago, Absolom said:

I would have expected Meri at least to have posted if Leon had completed a master's or completed anything.  

Meri did post about Leon completing their Masters, and @ginger90 shared a screenshot of it, just two posts above your own in this thread. See the part about Leon, i.e. "my kid" (circled)? 

[Absolom]

Yes, she posted that after my post.

[Celia Rubenstein]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:52 PM, Irate Panda said:

 

 

*Im not sure why a pic of dogs wearing lulurags exist but here we are 🤭

omg those are so THIN!  You can see the dog's fur through them.   Could they be tights, maybe? 

I shudder to think what those would look like on my fat ass me!

[Madding crowd]

I don’t agree that the other Brown children are more deserving of a college education than Leon. Going to a college is a personal decision and if any of the kids wanted to attend the same college I’m sure Kody and their mothers would have made it work. I rarely post here because I mostly think the Brown kids are living their lives and no one has to follow them on social media . I do see young people of all types either over sharing or being “woke” and I figure that trend will have to work its way out eventually. 

[Celia Rubenstein]

I don't begrudge anyone starting college and not finishing.  Your life may take a turn in a different direction, it may end up costing more than you thought, or you might realize college just isn't for you. 

I wish I'd had the guts to drop out of the post graduate path I went down when I realized I'd made a huge mistake (very early on, too).  But everyone was so impressed with what I was doing and I didn't want to look like a wash-out.  And I just didn't know what else to do with myself.  If I'd had more self-confidence and not been afraid to ask for guidance, who knows what direction my life would have gone in...

[Meh]

Why is I am Jazz, called "she", and the new trans on 90 Days the Other Way called "he", and Jenner is called "she", and Bono is called "he", and then Leon is called "they?" I am not saying she shouldn't be, but I do not understand the reasoning. Are there different kinds of trans maybe, is that the reason? Please do not give me a warning for merely asking a question.

[Sandy W]

10 minutes ago, Meh said:

Why is I am Jazz, called "she", and the new trans on 90 Days the Other Way called "he", and Jenner is called "she", and Bono is called "he", and then Leon is called "they?" I am not saying she shouldn't be, but I do not understand the reasoning. Are there different kinds of trans maybe, is that the reason? Please do not give me a warning for merely asking a question.

Just a guess here, possibly the others you refer to identify as that gender now. Maybe Leon thinks of themself as non binary, neither distinctly male or female.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sandy W

[GeeGolly]

24 minutes ago, Meh said:

Why is I am Jazz, called "she", and the new trans on 90 Days the Other Way called "he", and Jenner is called "she", and Bono is called "he", and then Leon is called "they?" I am not saying she shouldn't be, but I do not understand the reasoning. Are there different kinds of trans maybe, is that the reason? Please do not give me a warning for merely asking a question.

This might be of some help. Gender pronouns are about a third of the way down if you want to skip to it.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

[questionfear]

19 hours ago, Meh said:

Why is I am Jazz, called "she", and the new trans on 90 Days the Other Way called "he", and Jenner is called "she", and Bono is called "he", and then Leon is called "they?" I am not saying she shouldn't be, but I do not understand the reasoning. Are there different kinds of trans maybe, is that the reason? Please do not give me a warning for merely asking a question.

There is binary gender (people who use she/her or he/him pronouns) and there is non-binary, broadly categorized as people who do not fall firmly into one gender or the other. Many non-binary people prefer they/them pronouns. 

As far as why, there's a number of reasons and they're all pretty individual to the person. I can't speak for Leon, but I can say that I see myself as non-binary transmasculine, meaning I lean more male than female but I don't feel comfortable identifying 100% as male (and that's a longer explanation than is on topic for here). But my understanding from social media posts is that both Audrey and Leon tend to fall into roughly the same category, leaning more masculine but not identifying as necessarily binary male. 

However, non-binary is part of the trans umbrella, so yes, someone who is non-binary can consider themselves trans. 

[Mother of Odin]

On 1/26/2023 at 12:30 PM, GeeGolly said:

I don't see scars, but I don't see nipples either. So I was thinking Leon filtered the chest area because 'nipple rules'.

It might be but, many are choosing non nipple sparing mastectomies.

[questionfear]

1 hour ago, Mother of Odin said:

It might be but, many are choosing non nipple sparing mastectomies.

Yep. There's a few reasons/options:

-Could be that there was a complication or concern that the grafts wouldn't take, which can happen.

-Leon didn't want them/it would have been an added expense to re-attach nipples. 

Either way, there's medical tattooing options that can be done to replace nipples, and those are usually done at least 6ish months post-top so the skin and swelling have settled and it's clear there won't be a revision or other issue. 

[Soapy Goddess]

17 hours ago, questionfear said:

I can't speak for Leon, but I can say that I see myself as non-binary transmasculine, meaning I lean more male than female but I don't feel comfortable identifying 100% as male (and that's a longer explanation than is on topic for here). But my understanding from social media posts is that both Audrey and Leon tend to fall into roughly the same category, leaning more masculine but not identifying as necessarily binary male. 

Would personally like to thank you for the longer explanation. There are many of us out here who honestly do not have a clue, but are willing to learn when given a detailed explanation. I'm not brave enough to ask questions for the same reason as Meh was.

[questionfear]

5 hours ago, Soapy Goddess said:

Would personally like to thank you for the longer explanation. There are many of us out here who honestly do not have a clue, but are willing to learn when given a detailed explanation. I'm not brave enough to ask questions for the same reason as Meh was.

Anytime! :) 

[Meh]

Thanks so much for the he, she, and they pronoun info. I think I finally am understanding it better now., Still afraid of making mistakes though. I am 83, and this is all so very new to me.

[General Days]

2 hours ago, Meh said:

Thanks so much for the he, she, and they pronoun info. I think I finally am understanding it better now., Still afraid of making mistakes though. I am 83, and this is all so very new to me.

Whenever I hear a trans or non-binary speaking on the subject, it seems to me they don't expect perfection, so much as respect and manners.

So, say you won some lunch with the Browns. If you accidentally referred to Leon as "she" or by their birth name, but caught yourself, or you missed your error, but  they corrected you, so then you said, "Oh, I'm sorry. I meant 'they'," or "Sorry, I meant 'Leon'," it would not be a problem.

I don't know if you have kids/more than one kid. I do. I have called one child by another child's name, more times than I can count. Jimmy, Suzy, I mean Bobby, take this backpack up to your room! Moms do that all the time. It's a normal slipup. 

People who are rude or cruel are the problem. People who make innocent mistakes, but correct them and/or apologize are not the problem.

Edited February 12, 2023 by General Days

[laurakaye]

I hope Leon would be the kind of person to accept a sincere apology from a friend or family member who mistakenly slips up.  However, given what we know of Leon, they don't seem the type.  I picture one mistake and that person is no longer allowed in their orbit.  Maybe Leon has grown and changed since their days of asking people to fund their expensive lifestyle in Denver via Venmo, who knows.

[ginger90]

1 minute ago, laurakaye said:

Maybe Leon has grown and changed since their days of asking people to fund their expensive lifestyle in Denver via Venmo, who knows.

That was Audrey.

[oliviabenson]

https://people.com/tv/gwendlyn-brown-says-trans-sibling-leon-has-been-separating-from-sister-wives-family-to-feel-safer/

[questionfear]

12 hours ago, oliviabenson said:

https://people.com/tv/gwendlyn-brown-says-trans-sibling-leon-has-been-separating-from-sister-wives-family-to-feel-safer/

A few thoughts:

1) It's hard to figure out from the context, but Kody being all "these are the weird kids" probably doesn't help with family cohesion. 

2) This is not at all surprising. But good for Leon for having healthy boundaries. 

[LilyD]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:35 AM, General Days said:

I brought this over from the Maddie Brown thread. 

Leon graduated from Westminster and then went to Loyola for their Masters. Maybe they didn't complete it. I don't know, but a lot of people don't finish their graduate degrees (or don't finish them quickly), and Covid might have just derailed it, or made them rethink it.

First, let me say that I appreciate the way you defend Leon. As you noted, they've had a lot on their plate. But that doesn't make their behavior acceptable. Leon is closely monitored on social media by some people on the board. Their life is an open book, up to a point of over-sharing. Leon's posts are not pretty, they're pretentious and scathing, full of doing nothing at all. Our not-to-kind opinion is mostly based on that, not the show.

As for their college degree. Yes, a lot of people do not finish their Masters. And that's ok with me but own it. For someone who usually over-shares all aspects of their lives and thoughts, Leon is unusually quiet about graduating. In fact, both Leon and Meri seem happy to let us believe they graduated, but our sleuths have found no evidence for that. Leon is very much ado about nothing, to quote Shakespeare (minus the wit and humor of his play)

[ginger90]

2 minutes ago, LilyD said:

Leon is closely monitored on social media

Not much to monitor, they don’t really post.

[General Days]

1 hour ago, LilyD said:

First, let me say that I appreciate the way you defend Leon. As you noted, they've had a lot on their plate. But that doesn't make their behavior acceptable. Leon is closely monitored on social media by some people on the board. Their life is an open book, up to a point of over-sharing. Leon's posts are not pretty, they're pretentious and scathing, full of doing nothing at all. Our not-to-kind opinion is mostly based on that, not the show.

As for their college degree. Yes, a lot of people do not finish their Masters. And that's ok with me but own it. For someone who usually over-shares all aspects of their lives and thoughts, Leon is unusually quiet about graduating. In fact, both Leon and Meri seem happy to let us believe they graduated, but our sleuths have found no evidence for that. Leon is very much ado about nothing, to quote Shakespeare (minus the wit and humor of his play)

I have very much found this group to be the most reasonable Sister Wives discussion online, and I recognize you as a good, positive member of this community. I don't mean this to be harsh. If it is, please excuse me (and maybe forgive me -- there has been wine).

I don't follow Leon (or any of the Brown kids online) because (no offense to the young 'uns among us, if there even are any anymore) I find people in that age group hard to take online (not in real life, just online). Generally, they're too intense for me. I watch Sister Wives to escape real world stuff.

That said, when something has made the rounds here, or in the larger fandom, about Leon, it has either been a factual thing, like they've come out as trans/their name is Leon/they had a mastectomy, or it has been yoga poses, and dog pictures. What did Leon do to any of us (or even their siblings)? 

At 16 or 17, Leon was upset, because they got ripped out of their community in Lehi, and dragged to Vegas, and forced into public school, where (if the show is to be believed, and granted, that is a big if) they'd previously been bullied. And then, even though their mom had one of the better credit ratings [Robyn and her Victoria's Secret weren't the only cause of a pause and cleanup, Janelle (oh, she's a financial whiz!) was in a hot mess, too], they were the last family to get approved (for a cul-de-sac mortgage).

Leon wanted their mom to have another baby. Is that any wonder, in this FUpped religion, where all your worth is based on how many spirit babies to which you can give birth? They were angry that their mom had an emotional affair. Who wouldn't be? Seriously, even if you think your Dad is a total ass, no one wants to think about Mommy rubbing one out to a catfisher's pixels.

What exactly has Leon ever done, even on camera, to this family? They were bitchy to their mother after their mother hurt and embarrassed them. That is age-appropriate.

One time, they got cranky with their sisters, when all the girls (not misgendering Leon, but they publicly identified as their assigned-at-birth name and sex at the time) had to cook a holiday breakfast. Oh, and they pouted in the street about their house not being ready by Christmas. That's honestly all I can remember. Since I raised kids of my own, these all seem like absolutely nothing to me. Nothing.

What did you see Leon do on the show, to earn your ire? I don't doubt they did earn it. As I said up top, I recognize you as a productive member of this community. I just don't even know what you've seen that I've missed.

EDIT:

Reading back my own post, I already think I let myself get too het up about it. I think most of my reaction came from reading:

Quote

Leon's posts are not pretty, they're pretentious and scathing, full of doing nothing at all.

Scathing? Really? How so?

(This might be the TL;DR version of my post.)

Edited February 25, 2023 by General Days

[Tuxcat]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Leon hasn't really posted much since they moved away from Chicago and meri did say Leon got their masters. Seems as if Leon is now one of the off camera browns and not looking to capitalize on sister wives fame. Maybe maturity has helped smooth their youthful "I will change the world!" vigor- which back in the day many found pretentious.

[TurtlePower]

8 hours ago, General Days said:

I have very much found this group to be the most reasonable Sister Wives discussion online, and I recognize you as a good, positive member of this community. I don't mean this to be harsh. If it is, please excuse me (and maybe forgive me -- there has been wine).

I don't follow Leon (or any of the Brown kids online) because (no offense to the young 'uns among us, if there even are any anymore) I find people in that age group hard to take online (not in real life, just online). Generally, they're too intense for me. I watch Sister Wives to escape real world stuff.

That said, when something has made the rounds here, or in the larger fandom, about Leon, it has either been a factual thing, like they've come out as trans/their name is Leon/they had a mastectomy, or it has been yoga poses, and dog pictures. What did Leon do to any of us (or even their siblings)? 

At 16 or 17, Leon was upset, because they got ripped out of their community in Lehi, and dragged to Vegas, and forced into public school, where (if the show is to be believed, and granted, that is a big if) they'd previously been bullied. And then, even though their mom had one of the better credit ratings [Robyn and her Victoria's Secret weren't the only cause of a pause and cleanup, Janelle (oh, she's a financial whiz!) was in a hot mess, too], they were the last family to get approved (for a cul-de-sac mortgage).

Leon wanted their mom to have another baby. Is that any wonder, in this FUpped religion, where all your worth is based on how many spirit babies to which you can give birth? They were angry that their mom had an emotional affair. Who wouldn't be? Seriously, even if you think your Dad is a total ass, no one wants to think about Mommy rubbing one out to a catfisher's pixels.

What exactly has Leon ever done, even on camera, to this family? They were bitchy to their mother after their mother hurt and embarrassed them. That is age-appropriate.

One time, they got cranky with their sisters, when all the girls (not misgendering Leon, but they publicly identified as their assigned-at-birth name and sex at the time) had to cook a holiday breakfast. Oh, and they pouted in the street about their house not being ready by Christmas. That's honestly all I can remember. Since I raised kids of my own, these all seem like absolutely nothing to me. Nothing.

What did you see Leon do on the show, to earn your ire? I don't doubt they did earn it. As I said up top, I recognize you as a productive member of this community. I just don't even know what you've seen that I've missed.

EDIT:

Reading back my own post, I already think I let myself get too het up about it. I think most of my reaction came from reading:

Scathing? Really? How so?

(This might be the TL;DR version of my post.)

I know this wasn’t meant for me, but I have a few examples why I dislike Leon:

* They lied about their dog being a ESA to try and get the dog on a flight and when denied, they pitched a giant fit. Hardly ever has the dog accompanied them to events after that, so the dog is not a support animal they need with them all the time. They didn’t want to lay the airline fees, so they lied. As someone with PTSD, I hate when people pull that shit.

They talk about things like saving the bees and make a big deal of it, but do nothing. They try to make everyone else feel guilty for doing nothing, but instead of getting out and becoming a bee rescuer or working with a volunteer group to save bees, they simply pose by a wall, take a picture and expect everyone else to do the work. I looked it up (they were in Chicago at the time) and there were bee rescues they could have worked with.

Their posts are (were) often filled with rage versus positivity and solutions. Even if someone has made a simple mistake, instead of gently correcting them, Leon unleashes in a rage — kind of like their mother. 

These are just a few examples, I have to run before work so don’t have time to name more. 

[ginger90]

10 hours ago, LilyD said:

Leon's posts are not pretty, they're pretentious and scathing, full of doing nothing at all.

One would have to go pretty far back to see anything resembling this.

[TurtlePower]

1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

One would have to go pretty far back to see anything resembling this.

Admittedly Leon’s posts have been infrequent and tamed down some. Hopefully they have matured a bit and aren’t constantly looking for something to become angry about.

 

[GeeGolly]

I'm fairly certain Leon was not a fan favorite from the get go. Both on the show and their older posts showed a bratty, entitled, disrespectful, judgmental goody two-shoes.

One example that stands out to me is when Leon came out as gay. For context - at a young age I told my kids that mommy's default mode was to daydream their futures heterosexually, so I wanted them to tell me if and when I needed to insert a different gender, for anyone at any time. So, when conservative Meri (opposite of me) needed a hot minute to change up Leon's future in her mind, Leon was not very understanding and was unkind to Meri. Even with all of Meri's faults I don't think there has been any doubt she loves Leon to the moon and back and always has. I found that situation and Leon's behavior hard to watch when many LGBTQ+ kids parents treat their kids horribly, and Meri was scrambling to catch up to where Leon was.

Leon has always given me the impression that they think love and acceptance is a one way street and shows no grace or patience to others. The same grace and patience they demand they be shown.

I have not seen any connection between the dislike of Leon and their transition. In fact I've seen quite the opposite on these boards, as I feel everyone has shown love and support for Leon whether they like them or not.

Leon may be great now. They may be gracious, kind and full of patience and love, but we don't know that to be true. If and when we do know that, we certainly can change any opinions.

[Absolom]

Leon is on TikTok more now than instagram.  The last TikTok I saw was still a mess.  Less demanding people speak to Leon's standard, but still implying a need to approve of whatever Leon chose to do.  

Edited February 25, 2023 by Absolom

[WhatAmIWatching]

11 hours ago, General Days said:

Slovenly? Sure, but that's hardly a thing they've done to their family. Insufferably smug? I dunno. See my wordy explanation of why I don't follow any of these kids online. But scathing? Really? 

I'll say it again. When something has made the rounds here, or in the larger fandom, about Leon, it has either been a factual thing, like they've come out as trans/their name is Leon/they had a mastectomy, or it has been yoga poses, and dog pictures. 

EDIT:

In for a penny, in for a pound: it feels like a lot of people don't like this kid, because they're politically progressive (and maybe because they're trans). 

I mean Mykelti and Gwen are out there every week, talking about their family. Leon posts pictures of their (pre-trans) body in awkward yoga poses, and their post-trans body shirtless, and making coffee in a French Press. That's hardly "scathing."

Have you had a chance to read the whole thread?
From what I've read, most of the dislike came from their social media. There was a lot of aggressively lecturing, scolding and cursing the masses about what they should be doing to help different causes, without they themselves doing what they were demanding of everyone else. A lot of taking umbrage over minimal or imagined issues.

Many disliked them from their attitude on the show, and then that deepened with their social media rants as time went on. (the faking their dogs as ESA then publicly blasting the airline when it didn't work -is one example)
 

As far as I've read on this thread, everyone has been very supportive and respectful of their (and Audrey) coming out as first gay and then trans. Many are on the same side politically, so it's not that either, especially since we don't do politics at all here.

 

I don't feel strongly about Leon either way and hope(d) they would grow out of the large chip on their shoulder with time, age, and finally being their authentic self inside and out. 

 

(We are also a snark board as well, so that should be factored in.)

[Cetacean]

^ x 100, @WhatAmIWatching.  So well put.  Those of us following Leon for years have seen a lot to snark about most of it being all talk and no action.  The latest video pontificating on make coffee hasn't helped to change my attitude toward Leon.  Still full of hot air.  

[Roslyn]

I have said it before and I'll say it again about Leon. They are the perfect blend of Meri and Kody in personality and mannerisms. As well as a unique blend of an only child, but a child from a large family.

Also, what I see in them I would call piousness. If you read about Mormonism in general, and especially the stories of those who have left trying to navigate with those who are still well and truly locked into the beliefs, you can see the behavior of Mormons as very "high and mighty" pious.

I recently watched the "Under the banner of Heaven" series and behind the storyline it gives a very good view of the beliefs of the true believers, the development of those who broke off into the fundie version and the road leading to the crumbling of beliefs and the fallout that comes.

[xwordfanatik]

I remember when Leo freaked out when Maddie and Logan pranked them, by telling them that Hunter got a DWI.  They acted definitely "holier than thou."

I agree with @Roslyn that Leo is a blend of Kootie and Meri.   Sorry to say, not in a good way, IMO.  The service animal fakery pissed me off.  I hate it when people scam a disability where none exists.

[TurtlePower]

21 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm fairly certain Leon was not a fan favorite from the get go. Both on the show and their older posts showed a bratty, entitled, disrespectful, judgmental goody two-shoes.

One example that stands out to me is when Leon came out as gay. For context - at a young age I told my kids that mommy's default mode was to daydream their futures heterosexually, so I wanted them to tell me if and when I needed to insert a different gender, for anyone at any time. So, when conservative Meri (opposite of me) needed a hot minute to change up Leon's future in her mind, Leon was not very understanding and was unkind to Meri. Even with all of Meri's faults I don't think there has been any doubt she loves Leon to the moon and back and always has. I found that situation and Leon's behavior hard to watch when many LGBTQ+ kids parents treat their kids horribly, and Meri was scrambling to catch up to where Leon was.

Leon has always given me the impression that they think love and acceptance is a one way street and shows no grace or patience to others. The same grace and patience they demand they be shown.

I have not seen any connection between the dislike of Leon and their transition. In fact I've seen quite the opposite on these boards, as I feel everyone has shown love and support for Leon whether they like them or not.

Leon may be great now. They may be gracious, kind and full of patience and love, but we don't know that to be true. If and when we do know that, we certainly can change any opinions.

This, what’s in bold. You said exactly what I was thinking but couldn’t quite put into words. It’s exactly this. 

[BoogieWonderland]

Leon has always been black and white in their views and rejected anyone that wasn't on their perceived side. They were extremely pious and saw themselves as superior to gentiles and even their own siblings that weren't as devout.

Leon had the best possible experience of a plural child. That not might be the best possible experience of a child ever; but in plural marriage they did.

Their Mom was 1st, legal and public wife. Their Mom had the same household budget as the other Moms who had to provide for more children. Leon had better food and everything they needed materially, and more. Never had to share a bedroom when all the other kids did and didn't have to use the outside stairs in Lehi like the other kids did. They also benefitted  because despite having the benefits of being an only child, they also had lots of siblings to play with and love.

On Meris nights with Kody and Meris family vacations, Leon did not have to compete with other kids from the same Mom for attention from their Mom, or Kody. Like all the others did, competing with 4/5 siblings.

When all the kids went to public school, Leon got to go back to AUB school as they didn't like the school or the other students. Leon snitched on their siblings (Mykeltis non-modest clothes being one Leon admitted) and was dismissive of the ones struggling with Robyns first pregnancy, even though Leon thought it was sad Meri wasn't. Plus all the obvious times when Leon was moody, bossy and badly behaved on camera. 

This didn't stop when Leon was a teenager, in the covid season, Leon was generally dismissive to Kody and particularly to Meri.

They also clearly struggled with how obsessed Meri was with them growing up and suffocating; and Leon said on camera that was a major reason why they wanted Meri to have another child, so that Meri had another focus for all her love and attention.

So I'm not saying it was all roses.

Leon got to go to a college 3 times the price of their siblings *because* it was so vital to them that they be in Utah to be with church members and to meet families they could join as a sister wife.  Maddie went to a cheaper college in Utah but it was glossed over as Leon only had the choice of Westminster somehow?

And would not consider any alternative and manipulated the family in saying that was their only option if they wanted to stay in the church and join a plural family. Which would obviously appeal to every parent as Leon was the only one who seemed to want to live plural marriage.

Then Leon, the black and white thinker went to a progressive college in the middle of an identity politics revolution, suddenly rejected everything they'd said they needed to go to Westminster for; and very quickly said to Tamron Hall in a tell all that they didn't want to be a sister wife anymore but hadn't told their parents. Then came out as gay and abandoned the AUB and God entirely. That's their choice but is was hella quick.

Then they spent a couple of years jumping on every social media left campaign; seemingly not realising their own privilege and being scathing when Kody pointed it out.

Then a couple of years later their partner who they clearly adore, comes out as trans and has surgery and so does Leon.

And Leon says they reject anyone that doesn't celebrate that without question, not use their chosen pronouns or vote for political  candidates which don't support what they want. 

So when Gwen says Leon is just staying safe and building their tribe of people; I don't see that as very different as people in the AUB or any other group/cult who isolate themselves from anyone who has concerns, questions or an opposing view.

 

 

 

[questionfear]

I have a soft spot for Leon, because it's hard enough being a queer kid, being a queer kid in a bizarre and aggressively heterosexual fringe religion has to be excessively hard. 

Also, I was a grumpy weirdo from 16-22, as were most people. It's just that most of us didn't get our lives broadcast all over TV so no one had to immortalize every hormone and immaturity driven comment. 

The way Leon presented themselves on social media a few years ago was a bit pretentious, but, again, so is everyone else on social media. And the fact that they've pulled back from it also tracks with the fact that after your mid-20s you start to grow up and out of the asshole phase. 

I will say this though: Leon has every right and absolutely should say that they're cutting off anyone who isn't supportive of them. I will absolutely never judge them for  that and I think it's one of the most emotionally healthy things they could do for themselves. 

I can't speak for Leon's experiences, but I can tell you that it's a fucked up world out there. It makes you paranoid and you're constantly aware of your safety. A few weeks ago my girlfriend and I were walking her dog and we got stared down by a random couple, which led to us debating "were they looking at the dog, clocking us as a queer couple, clocking me as trans, or none of the above?"

I can pretty much guarantee that Leon and Audrey have probably had experiences where they were unsure where it was safe to just go pee, because people seem to think they have a right to citizen's arrest anyone who doesn't have the right equipment to use the "correct" bathroom.

I am sure that they've both endured overt and covert comments about who they are, and that shit builds up over time. I have a supportive family, and my mother will call me sobbing because a friend or relative will say to her "oh, but your oldest will always be <deadname> to me, I'm not calling them by their new name". That shit feels like a punch to the gut every time, that's literally someone saying "yes, I hear that you're saying you feel itchy in your skin, that everything is terrible and you've spent years agonizing over why you don't fit in and you've finally found the language and name that fit you, but also accommodating that basic request of yours is too much for me personally so I'm ignoring it for my own convenience." 

That's never ok, and it's also the hardest goddamn boundary to put up. So if Leon is actually doing that, good for them. 

[LilyD]

@General DaysI really appreciated your reply to my post, not offended in any way. It’s actually one of the things I appreciate on this board; how people respectfully correct or sometimes question other people’s thoughts or views. It generally makes for even more interesting discussions. Hope the wine was good btw 😉

In Leon’s defence:  Leon is first and foremost the product of Kody and Meri’s upbringing. That’s not Leon’s fault, but theirs. (Won’t elaborate on that, many have done so already) I have also acknowledged Leon as a very lonely single child several and fiercely defended their response and behaviour to Meri’s cat fish story and betrayal of Kody, which I understood so well due to similar experiences as a kid. Leon certainly didn’t have the easiest youth, despite all the privileges that were bestowed by mom and dad.

I do stand by my views regarding Leon though. Leon is an adult now and a rather unpleasant one at that. I’m not a fan and will never be. And yes, it is purely based on some things we saw on the show and all the things that were posted on SM. For reference of all the stuff that irked me so, see the posts by our fellow posters above. (And true, the Leon storm seems to have quieted down a lot on SM over the past year and a half or so….)
 

[Cetacean]

27 minutes ago, LilyD said:

(And true, the Leon storm seems to have quieted down a lot on SM over the past year and a half or so….)
 

I believe that's because Leon has essential gone quiet for whatever reason.  Speculation was that there was a job change to work for a social organization which probably did not tolerate the obscenity-laden, judgemental posts that were Leon's trademark for so long.

[Meow Mix]

I have absolutely no issue with Leon cutting off certain family members.  It is no surprise to me that some of them would refuse to respect their pronouns or use the correct name.  However, I got the impression from Leon's post when they came out as Leon that they would cut you dead if you made even the slightest mistake in addressing them.  I've known a couple of trans people and they understand that people who have known them for a long time are going to have to adjust and may slip up once in a while.  I don't get the sense that Leon will give grace in those circumstances.

Someone upthread mentioned Leon coming out as a lesbian and Meri's initial reaction.  I have always felt that Leon was deep in their anger at Meri for the whole catfishing mess (couldn't totally blame them since the public voicemails humiliated Leon as well) that Meri could have thrown a ticker tape parade and Leon would still have been pissed.  I agree with those who say she is a product of the worst traits of both her parents.  There are some champion grudge holders in this family.

[RazzleberryPie]

I bet Leon doesn’t cut off anyone who supports them financially.