Leon Brown: So Here's Me

[monagatuna]

21 hours ago, Adiba said:

I wonder how this will affect Audrey and Mariah’s relationship? If Audrey is transgender, will Mariah want to get married to a man, since Mariah identifies as lesbian?

It's not clear if Audrey is transitioning to a man. They have said they're masc-presenting, but they may identify as NB or fluid. Plenty of lesbians and gay men are in loving relationships with fluid-NB people and it's not an issue for them. It can be hard to understand if you've lived your whole life in a binary, and to many people the knee-jerk thought is that Audrey is a man, thus this is a straight relationship now, but it rarely works that way. A trans person is still under the umbrella and typically doesn't consider themselves straight even if they appear to be in a hetero relationship. It's different for everyone but my understanding is they still consider themselves queer. Of course, I can't speak for everyone.

At any rate, they have said they are going to continue going by Audrey and there's no word on whether they will have any surgery nor what gender they are transitioning TO, so there's no way for us to know yet whether they identify as a man. My guess would be masc-presenting non-binary, but that's just a guess. And it may not be a deal-breaker for Mariah.

Edit: I hope I'm not coming off as a know-it-all, I don't intend to be condescending. I just had a lot of soul-searching and many of my own questions coming to terms with my own queerness so I had to educate myself on gender identity--so a lot of these questions are ones I've asked myself. If I came off snarky, I apologize.

Edited December 5, 2021 by monagatuna

[MargeGunderson]

@monagatuna, your explanation was very helpful! I am used to thinking of transgender as binary, which is my mistake. Thank you!

[Teafortwo]

15 minutes ago, monagatuna said:

It's not clear if Audrey is transitioning to a man. They have said they're masc-presenting, but they may identify as NB or fluid. Plenty of lesbians and gay men are in loving relationships with fluid-NB people and it's not an issue for them. It can be hard to understand if you've lived your whole life in a binary, and to many people the knee-jerk thought is that Audrey is a man, thus this is a straight relationship now, but it rarely works that way. A trans person is still under the umbrella and typically doesn't consider themselves straight even if they appear to be in a hetero relationship. It's different for everyone but my understanding is they still consider themselves queer. Of course, I can't speak for everyone.

At any rate, they have said they are going to continue going by Audrey and there's no word on whether they will have any surgery nor what gender they are transitioning TO, so there's no way for us to know yet whether they identify as a man. My guess would be masc-presenting non-binary, but that's just a guess. And it may not be a deal-breaker for Mariah.

Edit: I hope I'm not coming off as a know-it-all, I don't intend to be condescending. I just had a lot of soul-searching and many of my own questions coming to terms with my own queerness so I had to educate myself on gender identity--so a lot of these questions are ones I've asked myself. If I came off snarky, I apologize.

Not snarky at all! I appreciate your perspective. 

[monagatuna]

6 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

@monagatuna, your explanation was very helpful! I am used to thinking of transgender as binary, which is my mistake. Thank you!

It's so common and honestly I've done it myself, for many years. Thank you for being so gracious! 

[Adiba]

9 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

@monagatuna, your explanation was very helpful! I am used to thinking of transgender as binary, which is my mistake. Thank you!

@monagatuna Yes, I had assumed that Audrey meant they were trans man when they said “masculine.”  I did not know that people who identify as non-binary also could be trans. You learn something new every day!

I do find it interesting that some couples’ relationships can withstand a partner’s transition, and some cannot. That was what I was questioning with respect to Mariah and Audrey— and that Audrey did not happen to mention Mariah in their post. But perhaps I’m reading too much into it.

[monagatuna]

2 minutes ago, Adiba said:

I do find it interesting that some couples’ relationships can withstand a partner’s transition, and some cannot. That was what I was questioning with respect to Mariah and Audrey— and that Audrey did not happen to mention Mariah in their post. But perhaps I’m reading too much into it.

That IS a very interesting point. I didn't even notice that they didn't mention Mariah.

It reminds me of the short-lived TLC program "Lost in Transition" about people who came out as trans later in life and had married cis-hetero partners, and worked through their trials and triumphs as a married trans person navigating their jobs and relationships in places where coming out as trans is not necessarily met with joy and pride. It's a shame it was only one season; it was a beautiful program that treated people with dignity while not holding back on showing the hardships they faced. I wish that had caught on, but maybe it wasn't enough of a trainwreck to attract TLC's target audience (pointing at myself here TBH).

[Gramto6]

Interesting that Mariah is maintaining radio silence about this information. Is she on such a tight rein with her new job she can't reply to Audrey's post publically?? 

Good for Audrey to be able to open up and be honest. She does look very happy.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Gramto6
typo

[ginger90]

Meri, Logan, Michelle, and Meri’s BFF Jen all posted supportively on Audrey’s post.

[deirdra]

Yeah, it looks like she is transitioning away from those crazy, drawn-on, Brown family eyebrows!

Edited December 5, 2021 by deirdra

[Cetacean]

25 minutes ago, Gramto6 said:

Interesting that Mariah is maintaining radio silence about this information. Is she on such a tight reign with her new job she can't reply to Audrey's post publically??

I think she's been on a tight rein for a while.  We haven't seen ranting, raging, and obcenities for quite some time.  Kind of peaceful.

[LilyD]

22 hours ago, Adiba said:

I wonder how this will affect Audrey and Mariah’s relationship? If Audrey is transgender, will Mariah want to get married to a man, since Mariah identifies as lesbian?

I have a second cousin who was gay, married to this wonderful guy called John. My cousin suddenly broke the news that he was in fact trans and chose to fully transition a few years later. Yes there were concerns about their relationship.

But...it survived. It's my understanding that it wasn't easy for John as he admitted that he always identified as gay and had never felt any physical attraction towards women. But at the same time, his husband (now wife) was still the same person in many ways and with the help of a good counselor they worked things out and are still very happy together. 

So yes, transitioning within a relationship is possible as I have seen it myself, but at the same time I can understand that not everyone is able to make it work. Because of the feelings that John so openly described. I guess you could say that your partner also needs to transition into a completely different role? It really is true love if you're able to do that for your partner!

[GeeGolly]

So happy for Audrey. Sometimes one has to be brave to live authentically in this critical world of ours.

Where does Mariah work?

[NoWhammies]

On 12/4/2021 at 2:38 PM, deirdra said:

Or think of they/them as non-binary.

I do think of they/them as non-binary. The mouse in the pocket was simply a suggestion to help me get past struggling to use a singular they/them since when I learned English, that was not considered proper grammar. Now it is, of course. But I'm old. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by NoWhammies

[TurtlePower]

23 hours ago, Cetacean said:

I think she's been on a tight rein for a while.  We haven't seen ranting, raging, and obcenities for quite some time.  Kind of peaceful.

Yeah it’s been kinda nice. Mariah was very angry and immature. I can’t imagine an employer wanting an angry potty mouth representing them. 

Mariah hopefully has learned it’s ok to have opinions and write about them without coming across as an asshole. 

[xwordfanatik]

50 minutes ago, NoWhammies said:

I do think of they/them as non-binary. The mouse in the pocket was simply a suggestion to help me get past struggling to use a singular they/them since when I learned English, that was not considered proper grammar. Now it is, of course. But I'm old. 

Same here.  When I see the words they or them, I think plural.  I'm old, too.

[Sandy W]

37 minutes ago, xwordfanatik said:

Same here.  When I see the words they or them, I think plural.  I'm old, too.

I feel the same way about the awkward plural pronouns when referring to a singular person. Why not adopt new pronouns, something along the lines of sh for she or he and hrm for her or him.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sandy W

[jacksgirl]

On 12/4/2021 at 7:43 PM, monagatuna said:

It's not clear if Audrey is transitioning to a man. They have said they're masc-presenting, but they may identify as NB or fluid. Plenty of lesbians and gay men are in loving relationships with fluid-NB people and it's not an issue for them. It can be hard to understand if you've lived your whole life in a binary, and to many people the knee-jerk thought is that Audrey is a man, thus this is a straight relationship now, but it rarely works that way. A trans person is still under the umbrella and typically doesn't consider themselves straight even if they appear to be in a hetero relationship. It's different for everyone but my understanding is they still consider themselves queer. Of course, I can't speak for everyone.

At any rate, they have said they are going to continue going by Audrey and there's no word on whether they will have any surgery nor what gender they are transitioning TO, so there's no way for us to know yet whether they identify as a man. My guess would be masc-presenting non-binary, but that's just a guess. And it may not be a deal-breaker for Mariah.

Edit: I hope I'm not coming off as a know-it-all, I don't intend to be condescending. I just had a lot of soul-searching and many of my own questions coming to terms with my own queerness so I had to educate myself on gender identity--so a lot of these questions are ones I've asked myself. If I came off snarky, I apologize.

Not snarky, very informative. I know zero non-binary people personally (that I am aware of) and it's hard to wrap my head around it, but I can still be an ally. Appreciate the explanation. 

[monagatuna]

1 hour ago, Sandy W said:

I feel the same way about the awkward plural pronouns when referring to a singular person. Why not adopt new pronouns, something along the lines of sh for she or he and hrm for her or him.

xe/xir didn't go over too well, unfortunately, although some people still use those. I think most people can just understand they/them better, as we've been using they as a singular noun for ages already when describing someone whose gender we don't know. And replacing s/he pronouns with other words that sound similar to male-female pronouns doesn't help a person who's NB/fluid. I get that some people think of they/them as plural only and it's hard to come away from that, but language is fluid and we've been using these pronouns in this way long before they were adopted by the trans community. You may get used to it if you try it a bit.

I do understand--I have a number of trans people among my friends and family and it takes some practice to use their correct name and pronouns, but you do get used to it.

Edit: Also, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I have to thank everyone for being polite and kind to each other. These conversations are so gratifying and help us understand each other as humans better.

Edited December 6, 2021 by monagatuna

[crazycatlady58]

10 hours ago, monagatuna said:

xe/xir didn't go over too well, unfortunately, although some people still use those. I think most people can just understand they/them better, as we've been using they as a singular noun for ages already when describing someone whose gender we don't know. And replacing s/he pronouns with other words that sound similar to male-female pronouns doesn't help a person who's NB/fluid. I get that some people think of they/them as plural only and it's hard to come away from that, but language is fluid and we've been using these pronouns in this way long before they were adopted by the trans community. You may get used to it if you try it a bit.

I do understand--I have a number of trans people among my friends and family and it takes some practice to use their correct name and pronouns, but you do get used to it.

Edit: Also, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I have to thank everyone for being polite and kind to each other. These conversations are so gratifying and help us understand each other as humans better.

They/ them is confusing to me because I don't know how many people we are talking about. When I saw the picture I could not understand where the other person was.. then the light bulb went off in my head and I understood.  I read a novel a few years ago where author used they to refer to someone again it took a second but it clicked then someone else joined the conversation and they was used to refer to both people.  It took me reading the paragraph twice to understand what was happening. Understand I have no problem with using the pronouns this way..as I said before it can be confusing as to how many people are being referred. 

[questionfear]

On 12/4/2021 at 8:43 PM, monagatuna said:

It's not clear if Audrey is transitioning to a man. They have said they're masc-presenting, but they may identify as NB or fluid. Plenty of lesbians and gay men are in loving relationships with fluid-NB people and it's not an issue for them. It can be hard to understand if you've lived your whole life in a binary, and to many people the knee-jerk thought is that Audrey is a man, thus this is a straight relationship now, but it rarely works that way. A trans person is still under the umbrella and typically doesn't consider themselves straight even if they appear to be in a hetero relationship. It's different for everyone but my understanding is they still consider themselves queer. Of course, I can't speak for everyone.

At any rate, they have said they are going to continue going by Audrey and there's no word on whether they will have any surgery nor what gender they are transitioning TO, so there's no way for us to know yet whether they identify as a man. My guess would be masc-presenting non-binary, but that's just a guess. And it may not be a deal-breaker for Mariah.

Edit: I hope I'm not coming off as a know-it-all, I don't intend to be condescending. I just had a lot of soul-searching and many of my own questions coming to terms with my own queerness so I had to educate myself on gender identity--so a lot of these questions are ones I've asked myself. If I came off snarky, I apologize.

This is spot-on in my opinion, or at the minimum it aligns with how I see things as well. My own identity is a bit in flux right now but I'm leaning towards NB/Genderqueer transmasculine and for me that means I definitely want some aspects of presenting as male even if I don't fully identify as male. It sounds like Audrey is feeling similarly. 

Sexuality can be rigid or it can be fluid. And whatever Audrey and Mariah work out is between them.

[islandgal140]

I remember a few seasons ago they talked about having kids and that Audrey would be the one to carry them so I wonder how, if at all, this changes that.

[deirdra]

1 hour ago, islandgal140 said:

I remember a few seasons ago they talked about having kids and that Audrey would be the one to carry them so I wonder how, if at all, this changes that.

There is a gay man on Survivor whose trans husband gave birth to their children. 

[laurakaye]

Good for Audrey, she looks really happy.  Color me skeptical about Mariah's silence, though....unless she's dramatically matured in the past few months, I can't believe she's been able to refrain from posting a dramatic response to Audrey's post.  That's just not our Snowflake.  She's too much like her daddy....she has to frame things as how they relate to her.

It does say something that Logan, Michelle and Meri commented to Audrey, but did Mariah? 

[questionfear]

12 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Good for Audrey, she looks really happy.  Color me skeptical about Mariah's silence, though....unless she's dramatically matured in the past few months, I can't believe she's been able to refrain from posting a dramatic response to Audrey's post.  That's just not our Snowflake.  She's too much like her daddy....she has to frame things as how they relate to her.

It does say something that Logan, Michelle and Meri commented to Audrey, but did Mariah? 

I know the perception of her here is pretty bad (and for good reason based on how she's behaved at times) but it's very possible she's staying quiet because this isn't her story, it's Audrey's. And it takes a fuck ton of courage to come out and explain who you are to the world once-coming out twice is fucking exhausting. Mariah may be stepping back and doing what she can to support Audrey behind the scenes, and letting Audrey share their story and control their narrative. 

I'm not remotely famous or important, and my friends were kind enough to ask me if it was ok to tell their spouses or mutual friends about my pronouns and things, because they wanted to make sure I was comfortable with who knew and how. Mariah grew up around the spotlight, she sees how the media has dissected Christine leaving, and she might (rightfully) be staying quiet so this story is about Audrey. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I’ve read through this thread, but was still wondering what the couple is doing…..living in Utah?  Attending school?  Just curious.  Are they still helping out with the B&B?

[Adiba]

For me, the issue really isn’t about Mariah not telling Audrey’s story so much as it is about Audrey not thanking her partner for supporting her or anything in her post mentioning Mariah at all. Also, Mariah could’ve just posted one of her memes or platitudes obliquely referencing the situation and supporting Audrey? But as I posted before, may I’m reading too much into it.

[Absolom]

I wonder if they're still together. It does create thoughts about what is going on privately.

[Pickleinthemiddle]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I’ve read through this thread, but was still wondering what the couple is doing…..living in Utah?  Attending school?  Just curious.  Are they still helping out with the B&B?

I believe Audrey's  family is from this area.  They moved back because she wanted to be near her family.  I believe Mariah was going to finish up her degree here.  I would guess they are both working.

[Joan of Argh]

“I am scared of hate I’ll receive, the things people who I care about will say about me, and violence” 

I wonder who Audrey is referring to?

[questionfear]

18 hours ago, Joan of Argh said:

“I am scared of hate I’ll receive, the things people who I care about will say about me, and violence” 

I wonder who Audrey is referring to?

Could be anyone, that's an incredibly common fear for trans folks. It's that fear that you're going to walk into thanksgiving and someone's going to say "oh but you used to have such beautiful long hair" or that family will refuse to use the correct name and pronouns. It's not always a list, like "I'm worried what these 5 cousins, 2 aunts, and one grandparent will say" as much as it is a free-floating fear. 

Audrey's statement sounds like a pretty typical one that I've said and that many trans folks I know have said-I doubt it's specific to any one person or that it's a dig at the Browns or anyone else. 

[Teafortwo]

24 minutes ago, questionfear said:

Could be anyone, that's an incredibly common fear for trans folks. It's that fear that you're going to walk into thanksgiving and someone's going to say "oh but you used to have such beautiful long hair" or that family will refuse to use the correct name and pronouns. It's not always a list, like "I'm worried what these 5 cousins, 2 aunts, and one grandparent will say" as much as it is a free-floating fear. 

Audrey's statement sounds like a pretty typical one that I've said and that many trans folks I know have said-I doubt it's specific to any one person or that it's a dig at the Browns or anyone else. 

I agree, and also, Meri left a message on Audrey's instagram saying how much she loves them. I do not think she would have done so had there been friction between Mariah and Audrey. I'd like to think that no matter what may happen or not happen in their romantic relationship due to Audrey's trans (or non-binary) identity, that the two of them would remain very close.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Teafortwo

[ginger90]

 

3 pictures:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CX2BnzRAtti/

[Liddy52]

15 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

 

3 pictures:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CX2BnzRAtti/

They look really happy. 

[iwantcookies]

I guess nose rings are popular. I can’t imagine getting one myself how would I blow my nose?

[ginger90]

[Elodia]

Mariah and Audrey look very happy. 😊

[ginger90]

[Sandy W]

5 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Har Har Har! I thought these people were "woke". 

"Merry Chrysler" was a deliberate mispronunciation of Merry Christmas by a comedienne  back in 2015. 

It wasn't funny then and still isn't.

[ginger90]

[iwantcookies]

Well I can finally tell A and M apart! 

[ginger90]

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYFK-jGP5ls/

 

 

.

[Absolom]

I think it's time for new glasses.  

[sandals]

The glasses are huge!!

[xwordfanatik]

I like Audrey's, but I don't like More-iah's.  I prefer eyewear with round, largish lenses, as they hide my undereye bags, and my face is squarish (although not nearly as square as Sponge Robyn Square Head's!)  🤪

[Sasha888]

5 minutes ago, xwordfanatik said:

I like Audrey's, but I don't like More-iah's.  

That's where I am, too. Mariah has even worse taste than her mother, and that's really saying something. 

I thought I didn't like Christine's big black glasses, but these are much worse. How does Mariah look at all of the options in a store and buy the ugliest item every time.

[iwantcookies]

Oh lulano 🤣 glasses edition 

[ginger90]

[winsomeone]

 I hope Audrey some day decides to add 2-3 wives to their family, so Mariah can finally see what her mother went through with Cody. She was always totally for polygamy. If that happens she might change her tune?

[xwordfanatik]

Nah.  I'm betting that Mariah the Misery will always put Daddy Dearest on a pedestal.

Well, she did get his full-on attention every third/fourth night back in the day...when her twelve half-siblings had to share him.  She did go to a fancy-ass private college, when the others didn't.  Special Snowflake status got her extra, when Mama Meri was HBIC.

 

[ginger90]