S02.E01: Rise Of The Villains: Damned If You Do...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Penguin is King of Gotham and after a shakeup at the GCPD, Detective James Gordon's moral compass wavers, as he seeks help from Penguin. Meanwhile, Bruce Wayne continues to explore the secrets from his father's office, and Gotham newcomers Theo Galavan and his sister, Tabitha, make friends with some unlikely allies - a group of dangerous inmates from Arkham.

 

Clips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N8PC_iW4MA

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa9n07GkXi8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MAaHjsYWxE

[Chip]

This thread will be open for discussion the day the episode airs.

[Primetimer]

This season of Gotham is supposed to have more villains. But does that have to mean less Bullock?

Read the story

[Spartan Girl]

Bruce and Alfred blowing up the door was priceless.

I have to admit Barbara's harassing phone call to Jim and Leslie was creepy and hilarious. But I can't help being satisfied that Jim has no lingering compassion or love for Barbara; he was just "You're sick. Goodbye." Click.

I hope Bullock comes back to the force soon.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Spartan Girl

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Awww, they did a time jump.

To cover David's growth spurt during the summer.

Erin Richards is having a blast and I'm here for Crazy Barbara.

Thought Office Max Thunderdome dude was her new boo.

Guess not.

James Frain has one hell of an Agent.

[Philbert]

 

Erin Richards is having a blast and I'm here for Crazy Barbara.

 

 

So say we all. Talk about a total character 180. Barbara has gone from one of the most despised characters on television to a dynamo of crazy, slutty vengeance. Erin Richards took a lot of beating from some fans last season. She deserves a bit of an apology I think. She's utterly nailing this role.

[SoSueMe]

Gor-Don! lol

[MrsRafaelBarba]

So say we all. Talk about a total character 180. Barbara has gone from one of the most despised characters on television to a dynamo of crazy, slutty vengeance. Erin Richards took a lot of beating from some fans last season. She deserves a bit of an apology I think. She's utterly nailing this role.

The writers shit the bed with Barbara last season.

The character annoyed me, but I felt bad for the actress.

Kudos to tptb for doing her a solid and retooling the character.

Instead of getting rid of the actress, like most shows tend to do.

Edited September 22, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[Chaos Theory]

When did Barbara Keen become the best part of the show? I could have watched an entire episode set in Arkham. Those scenes were a blast.

[mtlchick]

So Arkham has a co ed lounge and Barbara is wearing a fashionable jumpsuit.  Ok then. That said, her few minutes tonight made up a lot for an entire season of blank eyed staring.  

 

The rest?  Confusing.  It's like they want to move the story forward on what worked and a full reset on what didn't.  I'll give it a few more weeks but I may have to bow out soon if it can't figure out what it wants to be now.

[Lila82]

This show is about a billion times better without Fish.  Long reign the Penguin!  

 

Alfred really thought Thomas Wayne had a sex dungeon behind that door.  Just me?  

 

Also: Bruce might have turned into the most smackworthy, snarky teenager during the time jump, but Alfred can make me a cup of tea anytime.

 

The cinematography and production design in this episode alone are Emmy worthy.  The show has such a unique feel and tone and so much of it is conveyed through sets and costuming.  Even when the plot suffers (see Fish, Mooeny), it's gorgeous to watch.

 

Heller did really well with the comic beats.  This episode was funny.

 

I like the set up for the first set of plot arcs, but if Harvey is the sanest character on the canvas, the world really is going to hell.

 

ETA:

 

Nygma is a stone-cold killer and yet I just want to hug him.  Does that make me Team Villain?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Lila82

[Lantern7]

Wouldn't Bruce and Alfred have entered "BRUCE" into the keypad on, like, day two? At most? Oy, this show.

 

On the bright side, I think Barbara is no longer going to be a liability. At the very least, she balances out Noker, which is what I'm calling the wannabe Joker. We shouldn't have an origin for Joker, even in this particular universe. Oh, and loving the "traditional" prison stripes

 

So . . .  generic craziness for Nygma, huh? At the end of the episode, I wanted the "reflection talks back" gimmick to be applied to Jim.

 

I'm probably going to miss Fish. Can't wait to see Penguin choke down scenery like she did last season.

[NorthstarATL]

Nice and intriguing start to the season! I liked the re-working of Barbara, and Penguin's new power was well-earned, and he's as skeevy as ever! Never thought of the Riddler as being conflicted in any way, but since that's where they're going, I think the actor pulled it off. I was blown away just as least season by Cameron Monaghan ( whom I always thought was the weak link in the "Shameless cast), and liked the introduction of Frain and Tigress.

   My only complaint is Bruce's resorting to the bomb in order to get to the Fortress of Battitude and Thom-Ayne's letter of intent. REAL Bruce would have sussed out the code.

 Glad I stuck with this.

Edited September 22, 2015 by NorthstarATL

[HoodlumSheep]

I thought that was a pretty good premiere.

Crazy Babs is awesome. David has grown a lot.

So Selina is with the Penguin now?

I'm also surprised that Leslie's sticking with Jim after he told her what he did.

Not enough Harvey.

I can see that Gotham is sticking with it's zany, quirky, campy style. I'm glad. It's fun.

[foreverevolving]

The writers shit the bed with Barbara last season.

The character annoyed me, but I felt bad for the actress.

Kudos to tptb for doing her a solid and retooling the character.

Instead of getting rid of the actress, like most shows tend to do.

I wish Arrow will take note and do the same with Laurel it would have saved us Sara/Black Canary dying and the rise of Buckles... Kudos to Gotham for realizing their casting mistake and instead of sticking to their guns did what AoS has done: writing to the actor strengths.

 

back to Gotham!

That was a solid opener. I would totally watch the Barbara & Jarome show if a spin-off is in the works, this should be it!

How much did they time jump? couldn't have been more than a few months.

I guess with Barbara being crazy evil now she can't be babs gordon AKA Batgirl mom, so if they ever go the route of introducing babs they'll make her Jim niece, please!

 

Again tat was a solid season opener.

Edited September 22, 2015 by foreverevolving

[Sakura12]

Agree with the Arrow problem, this is how you fix a character and make her interesting. I'm more interested in what they do with Barbara than with Jim. I like her chemistry with proto Joker as well. They seem like they will be fun together and we'll get a not Harley and not Joker team up. 

 

Wasn't really expecting Selina to go with Penguin, I guess she needs a place to stay now that Barbara's locked up. 

 

And is James Frain is attempting to be on every show on the air right now? I've seen him 3 shows in the past 3 months, True Detective, Orphan Black and now Gotham. 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Sakura12

[Philbert]

 

Kudos to tptb for doing her a solid and retooling the character.

 

Which begs the question-Did the writers indeed 'retool' the character after realizing just how far down a bad road they'd gone with her? Or was this their plan all along? If that is the case, then hats off to them, they had us all fooled. Does anybody have an answer on that?

[SoSueMe]

Great to hear Perfect Day, two days in a row. (It opened Fear the Walking Dead yesterday).

[Chaos Theory]

Which begs the question-Did the writers indeed 'retool' the character after realizing just how far down a bad road they'd gone with her? Or was this their plan all along? If that is the case, then hats off to them, they had us all fooled. Does anybody have an answer on that?

I think it was a little of both. Half way through season 1 the writers realized the character of Barabrs wasn't working but the actor was good so they began to tweak the character. First with the breakup then with Cat moving in and then her getting kidnapped. Barbara Kean's character has always been a course correction written toward the actresses and the shows strengths.

[thuganomics85]

I actually thought it was a pretty good return.  Granted, it's only the first episode of the season, but I feel like they basically already know where they are going with their stories, and I don't think we will suffer through as much filler and meandering, like we did last season.

 

To echo what most are saying, Barbara has pretty much done an 180 now.  Evil, crazy Barbara is so much fun, and Erin Richards continues to shine.  It's like she has chemistry with everyone but Ben McKenzie.  But I was loving all her interactions with Jerome ("Future Joker?"), Sionis, and then Theo.  I'm actually really curious to see where they go with her.

 

Love Oswald as the big bird in charge.  Especially since Butch, Selina, and Victor Zsasz are all along for the ride.  Oswald and Victor especially were cracking me up in their scene with Loeb.  Victor really wanted to kill him!  I'm sure you'll get other chances, Zsasz!

 

Theo and Tabitha could be fun new additions, although at this point, James Frain really should just start wearing a sign that says "Hello, I am James Frain and I will be an evil man!" anytime he appears on a new show.

 

Gordon already gets his job back (and Eissen gets a promotion!), but has to do Oswald's dirty work to do so.  How much farther can he push it?  I already think he's starting to loose Leslie a bit.

 

I'm going to guess Bullock won't remain a bartender for long.

 

The Alfred/Bruce stuff ends up being the weakest simply because I can't believe neither one of them wouldn't have tried Bruce's name as a passcode. World's greatest detective, my ass.

Edited September 22, 2015 by thuganomics85

[Philbert]

 

Theo and Tabitha could be fun new editions, although at this point, James Frain really should just start wear a sign that says "Hello, I am James Frain and I will be an evil man!" anytime he appears on a new show.

 

He's already got one of those: his face. :)

[MisterGlass]

Alfred would have tried the name that even if Bruce hadn't once they made it through family birthdays.  Part of me hoped Alfred was in on the secret, had the code, and wasn't willing to give it.

 

This was...okay.  Barbara is improved, but Jim is as clueless about consequences as ever, and that's disheartening.  Is this the third time he's asked Penguiin for help with disastrous consequences?  I felt like his reaction and Lee's reaction to what he did were way too mild.  That was murder during the commission of a felony.  Pretty high up there.

 

Too little Harvey, and they killed Sionis earlier than they needed to.  Not that they don't have villains aplenty.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Along with Orphan Black, True Detective and Gotham, Frain also was on The White Queen.

And the short lived BBC series Intruders.

Edited September 22, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[Amelie06]

 

Great to hear Perfect Day, two days in a row. (It opened Fear the Walking Dead yesterday).

I love that song. It sucks that Gotham cut it off before the best part! How can you use "Perfect Day" and leave out the "you're going to reap just what you sow" line? It would have been fitting in this situation.

 

Mirror Riddler is hot! I didn't give that actor enough credit last season. Mirror Riddler was also a creep. He was sounding a little rapey when talking about his office crush.

 

Overall, this show isn't doing it for me. I was bored as hell watching this episode. I quit mid way through the last season and I don't think I'm going to make it this season. I wasn't paying very close attention, so am I right in thinking that Jim legit murdered a dude in this episode? Like pulled off a heist and then murdered a dude to get away?

 

I just can't with Baby Batman. Teens are the worst. They are gawky, mean, hormonal, dismissive of adults, and dumb while thinking they know better than everyone. I don't want to see Bruce like this. I don't care! Either be 30 and Batman or go to boarding school, you little bastard.

[TrininisaScorp]

I only watched this show on demand in chunks last season, but my Monday shows have moved to Thursdays (unfortunately). I wonder based on this if I'm going to care for it as a weekly thing.

Missed seeing more Donal, but loved his interaction and manly head hug with Jim.

Oh, Jim. His ongoing relationship with Penguin is entertaining, but so problematic to our upright Jim.

Dang, man. James Frain can't EVER be a good guy. Like, it's impossible.

We were screaming "try bruce" at the tv from the jump. Why didn't they think of names?

So, with the ppl we know, Penguin is ahead of the villain game than many of the other bat villains we are used to.

How did Barbara hide her crazy for this long?! I mean, talk about 0 to 100 on the nutty scale quick.

Speaking of, crazy mirror Ed IS oddly better looking than Original Recipe Ed. I...I don't know how I feel about that.

Edited September 22, 2015 by TrininisaScorp

[Philbert]

 

so am I right in thinking that Jim legit murdered a dude in this episode? Like pulled off a heist and then murdered a dude to get away?

 

Well he shot in self defense but since he killed the man during the commission of an Armed Robbery, yeah he's certainly culpable of First Degree Homicide. At that point, it doesn't matter if you meant to kill the guy or not. So, Jim Gordon=murderer.

[Danielg342]

Score this second pilot as a "win" for me. The only down side to this episode was a lack of Bullock, and I fear a role reduction with him being a bartender. Still, I could get behind the idea...someone needs to run "the ground game" with Penguin in charge.

 

Zaardon...he was cool, once I actually figured out where they were going with the character. It's a strange plan to set someone up to get them to die in Arkham so they could breathe toxic fumes and allow someone else to break inmates out, but I thought it actually worked. Only quibble I'd say is that it was random chance that Theo Galavan got those inmates, although I could probably fanwank he didn't have anyone specific in mind and was just going to "take what he got" anyway.

 

The Sinister Six...I could get behind that.

 

I was amused by Bruce trying all those different combinations...he's a determined kid, just not much of a planner. I'm guessing it's when he's an adult is where he'll finally learn to control his impulses, because right now he needs Alfred to steady that ship (loved the tea sequence..."you don't got enough for that bomb, and here's how you put it together and...okay, I'll get that kettle going").

 

Glad to see Victor Zsasz finally effective for a change...him holding Loeb's guard's head was priceless. I thought the storyline of Jim and Penguin working together worked pretty well, though I sometimes wonder why Gordon can't figure out another solution to his problems other than talking to Oswald. I also wonder when the Penguin is going to realize that he's pretty much got Gordon under his thumb...if he ever does it could make for a nice story.

 

Then there's Nygma...didn't see much of him but he was brilliant. Whatever will happen of The Riddler will be a fun ride.

 

Lastly, Barbara was a lot of fun as the villain she turned out to be. Erin Richards seemed to have a ball playing against all those brutes who they can shack up with a sophisticated woman like she is...and something tells me Barbara is smarter than she looks. Probably won't be a subordinate for much longer in her new gang.

 

Good start. Hope they keep it up.

[HalcyonDays]

The Alfred/Bruce stuff ends up being the weakest simply because I can't believe neither one of them wouldn't have tried Bruce's name as a passcode. World's greatest detective, my ass.

 

Or they could have tried an acetelyne torch, so that the heavy metal door could be replaced once the original was cut out, the tunnel remains strong and intact and the contents of the room not dust covered and possibly damaged. But that's just me....

[MrsRafaelBarba]

When Purple Breath announced his arrival to Arkham, then everyone was like um whatever.

:DEAD:

[Philbert]

 

Zaardon...he was cool, once I actually figured out where they were going with the character. It's a strange plan to set someone up to get them to die in Arkham so they could breathe toxic fumes and allow someone else to break inmates out, but I thought it actually worked.

 

Kind of reminds me of that scene in "The Dark Knight" when the Joker has one of his henchman infiltrated into the MCU holding cells with a bomb implanted in his stomach. I wonder if this was a shout out to that scene.

[foreverevolving]

Score this second pilot as a "win" for me. The only down side to this episode was a lack of Bullock, and I fear a role reduction with him being a bartender. Still, I could get behind the idea...someone needs to run "the ground game" with Penguin in charge.

 

Zaardon...he was cool, once I actually figured out where they were going with the character. It's a strange plan to set someone up to get them to die in Arkham so they could breathe toxic fumes and allow someone else to break inmates out, but I thought it actually worked. Only quibble I'd say is that it was random chance that Theo Galavan got those inmates, although I could probably fanwank he didn't have anyone specific in mind and was just going to "take what he got" anyway.

 

The Sinister Six...I could get behind that.

 

I was amused by Bruce trying all those different combinations...he's a determined kid, just not much of a planner. I'm guessing it's when he's an adult is where he'll finally learn to control his impulses, because right now he needs Alfred to steady that ship (loved the tea sequence..."you don't got enough for that bomb, and here's how you put it together and...okay, I'll get that kettle going").

 

Glad to see Victor Zsasz finally effective for a change...him holding Loeb's guard's head was priceless. I thought the storyline of Jim and Penguin working together worked pretty well, though I sometimes wonder why Gordon can't figure out another solution to his problems other than talking to Oswald. I also wonder when the Penguin is going to realize that he's pretty much got Gordon under his thumb...if he ever does it could make for a nice story.

 

Then there's Nygma...didn't see much of him but he was brilliant. Whatever will happen of The Riddler will be a fun ride.

 

Lastly, Barbara was a lot of fun as the villain she turned out to be. Erin Richards seemed to have a ball playing against all those brutes who they can shack up with a sophisticated woman like she is...and something tells me Barbara is smarter than she looks. Probably won't be a subordinate for much longer in her new gang.

 

Good start. Hope they keep it up.

I think she's already jumped to co running that gang along with Jarome from the second she played with that big guy "asking" for his protection, than promptly sitting back and continuing to read her magazine as if nothing just happened. lol. sister is cray cray and she may just turn into my favorite character on this show.

[Danielg342]

I think she's already jumped to co running that gang along with Jarome from the second she played with that big guy "asking" for his protection, than promptly sitting back and continuing to read her magazine as if nothing just happened. lol. sister is cray cray and she may just turn into my favorite character on this show.

 

I know...I loved that.

 

"Will you be my friend?"

 

That should be a meme or something.

[Dobian]

I don't see how Barbara ever marries Jim in this version of the story, lol.  Who was she kissing in the season previews?  I don't think it was Renee Montoya but it was quick. 

[Proteus]

I don't see how Barbara ever marries Jim in this version of the story, lol.  Who was she kissing in the season previews?  I don't think it was Renee Montoya but it was quick.

She was kissing Tabetha.

[VCRTracking]

I definitely like crazy evil Barbara.

[Racj82]

Eh, Barbara is great right now but it's always easier to play evil role. So, I'm not giving too much props to that. A show making the significant other interesting is something I would applaud.

[mertensia]

Shallowly I want Barbara's dress.

Oh Jim. Stop making deals with the Penguin. This can't end well.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was cracking up that most of the other female prisoners were in boring striped outfits but Barbara somehow got a cute striped dress. I started hating Barbara last season when she didn't want to leave town but I am on board with crazy Barbara (and evil mirror Nygma who is like a hundred times hotter than regular Nygma - is it just the lack of glasses?).

 

I loved that when Zaardon jumped up on the table and started ranting, one of the Arkham prisoners was staring up at him transfixed. He looked like a little kid hearing his favorite bedtime story. But so long, Sionis. He has had fairly substantial roles lately (first on The Originals and then 12 Monkeys) so I thought he would be sticking around for most of the season, but apparently not. Fun fact: he also played M'Fashnik on Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Dawn: "Like mmmm, cookies!").

 

Alfred really thought Thomas Wayne had a sex dungeon behind that door.  Just me?

Ha, I thought that was one of his suspicions too. I know it's just semantics, but Alfred really needs to stop telling Bruce that he's a child. That's like the #1 way to piss off a 12 year old.

 

Not enough Harvey, but I loved the little we got this week. "I have a woman who does not dislike me."

 

Loved Penguin asking for peanut butter and then making himself a sandwich.

[crowswork]

Alfred would have tried the name that even if Bruce hadn't once they made it through family birthdays.  Part of me hoped Alfred was in on the secret, had the code, and wasn't willing to give it.

 

I thought they should have said..."I thought you tried it?"  "Well I thought you tried it."

[Writing Wrongs]

The cinematography on this show is gorgeous.

[cambridgeguy]

Jumping from captain to commissioner seems like a bit of a leap but good for Essen.  I wonder if the criminals in Gotham will be more reluctant to attack Gordon if they know he's Penguin's buddy.

 

It's at least 10 years until Bruce puts on the cape, right?  At this rate the city will be overrun by lunatics in half that time.

[lynnea6]

Oh show, you make me so happy having Todd Stashwick and then you kill him off.  To show how little I cared about last season, I completely forgot he appeared in one of the episodes.  At least we have James Frain.  

 

Aside from Bruce's story, I loved this episode.

[Ailianna]

How much did they time jump? couldn't have been more than a few months.

 

The time card said "One Month Later."  Not a huge time jump, and I don't think it was intended to cover the growth of the teen characters.  I think they needed just enough time for Jim to be demoted and frustrated, and for Harvey to get sober, and then jump right back in. 

 

I love this show, and I was happy with the premiere.  Lots of action and call backs, but without getting too far from what is, to me, the central question this show asks over and over again--how far will you go to get what you want?  Jim is the obvious person asking this question this time (and often), but Penguin has been answering this question all series (as far as I have to), Bruce answered this question this week (with the same answer as Penguin), and Jim I think found he would go farther than he thought he would. 

[NutmegsDad]

Last season, you could only interest me in Barbara on screen if she was walking around barefoot in a dressshirt. This episode, she rocks the retro-Adam West prison dress and I'm loving it.

 

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the events of the season finale that got Bullock to quit and Gordon demoted (again).

 

I'm sad Selina is no longer a "free agent", but she is smart enough to hitch her ride on the train that'll get her further.

 

Bullock is actually in a better position for Gordon as a bartender, to be eyes and ears. I will miss the bromance,

 

Anyone else expect Alfred to pull out a sonic screwdrivier to open the PreBatCave?

[Milz]

Wouldn't Bruce and Alfred have entered "BRUCE" into the keypad on, like, day two? At most? Oy, this show.

 

On the bright side, I think Barbara is no longer going to be a liability. At the very least, she balances out Noker, which is what I'm calling the wannabe Joker. We shouldn't have an origin for Joker, even in this particular universe. Oh, and loving the "traditional" prison stripes

 

So . . .  generic craziness for Nygma, huh? At the end of the episode, I wanted the "reflection talks back" gimmick to be applied to Jim.

 

I'm probably going to miss Fish. Can't wait to see Penguin choke down scenery like she did last season.

 

If not "BRUCE" then Bruce's birthday? Anyhow, I guess it shows that Bruce needs to learn how to be a detective.

 

Also, kudos to Thomas Wayne. Some people have modest DIY home improvement projects like wallpapering the guest room, installing new kitchen cabinets, building a deck. But not Thomas Wayne-----he builds himself a secret underground annex with a remote controlled behind-the-fireplace entry..

[Jediknight]

Crazy Barbara is fun, Jerome is fun, Crazy Barbara and Jerome together are a freaking blast.  Can not wait to see those two some more, especially working together.

 

I can somewhat see why they had Bruce do what he did with Gordon.  He asked a good man to compromise his beliefs and integrity, which should haunt him.  It should push him to being a symbol of hope, and not compromising his beliefs, because he once aked that of a good man that only wanted to clean up Gotham, and solve the murder of his parents.  Bruce gets a glimpse into darkness that he has, and realizes he was a dumbass and a jackass.  Also that to become who he really is, he has to channel that darkness that asked Gordon to compromise his integrity, into becoming what criminals fear, so that he, Gordon, and the Bat Family can clean up Gotham.  That better be the way they go with it.

 

Zsasz was great, Penguin was his usual self, and Nygma just like Penguin was his usual self.  I'm really looking forward to the rest of the season.

[darkestboy]

That was a fun opening episode. The Arkham stuff was the highlight of the whole thing. It seems like unlike last season, they finally know what to do with the place.

 

Theo and Tabitha are intriguing antagonists and I wasn't sad to see Sionis getting killed off. Loving the new crazier version of Barbara and Jerome had some good moments here too.

 

Gordon getting demoted/his job back by doing a bad thing was done a little too quickly but I had no problem with Oswald and Victor putting the scares on Loeb though.

 

Hope Leslie is given a little more to do as well.

 

Nygma and Selina's scenes were too brief but I do like the idea of the latter working with Oswald now.

 

The BatCave stuff was pretty decent too, good way of ending the episode, 8/10

Edited September 22, 2015 by darkestboy

[Syndicate]

Haven't seen the premiere yet but I've read this season promises to be more sinister and twisted in ways that season one wasn't.  Also thrilled to hear that they've more or less dropped the ridiculous villains of the week format.  That added nothing to season one and was a waste of time for the most part.  I'm going to get around to the premiere in its entirety, but Gordon is playing with fire by cutting all sorts of deals with Penguin.  I'd laugh, while at the same time finding it believable, if the ultimate deal becomes Penguin manipulating Gordon into becoming his sex slave.  I remember how some people talked about Penguin being queer and secretly crushing on Jim Gordon last season.  Fanfic type stuff, but if this show promises to be truly twisted this season....................................

Edited September 22, 2015 by Syndicate

[Hanahope]

I don't get it.  If Penguin couldn't get anything on Loeb because he was 'too good', then why does Loeb hate Gordon?

 

It sure seems like they're trying to fast forward to Batman, but it just seems way too early for Bruce to be finding out all this stuff, and for the criminals to get so much power..

[Milz]

I don't get it.  If Penguin couldn't get anything on Loeb because he was 'too good', then why does Loeb hate Gordon?

 

It sure seems like they're trying to fast forward to Batman, but it just seems way too early for Bruce to be finding out all this stuff, and for the criminals to get so much power..

 

Mebbe Loeb is "too good" at covering his tracks? Loeb was able to hide his psycho daughter's murder of his wife for years until Jim and Harvey butted in.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Milz