S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[Calamity Jane]

Agreed!  What's the point of having a direwolf if he's never around ?

We all wondered that, too.  The only thing I could come up with was that, since this was elaborately planned, perhaps they penned Ghost up somewhere.  Even so, you'd think he would howl an unearthly, terrifying howl. 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Olly is such a fucking cypher he makes me want to slug him. He sucks the energy out of everyone and everything around him. I mean, even the "TRAITOR" sign was leaning in despair.

 

 

        LOL!

[Lady S.]

Please let them solve mysteries. "Ruh roh, Ram! Rice rombies!"

I can always count on your humor to lighten me up after this depressing show. That's reason to stick with it for a while longer.

 

DarkRaichu, the Dornish sl was just stupidly handled all the way around, I don't see a way to reconcile any of it. Dany's misadventures in Qarth look like brilliant storytelling in comparison.

 

I'm reading the interview with Kit that mentions he might keep his hair long for other roles, and it's such bullshit. Richard Madden was devastated after the Red Wedding, but Kit's jubilantly cracking jokes, described as smiling, and saying it was Jon's fault for bringing wildlings through the gate. Sure, Kitten.

[Neurochick]

I continue to love Games of Thrones. If anything, I like a whole lot more now. I recognize the shows' flaws, but simply do not share the outrage over every single thing that occurs here and elsewhere on Internet every week. I am thoroughly entertained which all I expect from a tv show. Then again, I am huge a Walking Dead fan, relentless misery and brutal deaths are my thing.

 

I agree with this 100%.  I don't get the outrage, it's a show about war.  I'm not watching "The Avengers."  The reason I like this show is because I grew up in the 60's and 70's when they'd NEVER mess with the lead character for fear the audience wouldn't be able to deal with it.

[panthergirl13]

As we all know, there's a big difference between "all dead" and "mostly dead."

http://youtu.be/X90qKQAMh8A

Hahaha that's exactly what I thought of!

[CeeBeeGee]

DarkRaichu, the Dornish sl was just stupidly handled all the way around, I don't see a way to reconcile any of it. Dany's misadventures in Qarth look like brilliant storytelling in comparison.

 

One thing that bothers me about the Dorne mishandling with this--they have Keisha Castle-Hughes, a bloody Oscar nominee (the youngest Best Actress nominee ever) and they didn't even use her. She had, what 10 lines altogether? Criminal.

 

Also, like everyone else, I hate Ellaria's need for revenge. Oberyn knew what he was getting into. No one forced him to champion Tyrion. I'd love to see Ellaria with a better storyline, as I love that actress (she was awesome in Rome).

[Timetoread]

"Oh, listen to you crybabies! My family was killed by Ramsay Bolton!"

 

"Whatever Dudes, my dad got his head chopped off by King Joffrey, who married my sister.  My little brothers were burned to death by Theon Grayjoy.  My stepmother was just plain stupid.  You don't know from misery!" - Jon

[jbrecken]

What kind of "religion" encourages name-calling and throwing disgusting objects at a person? 

The flavor of Puritain Christianity practiced in Colonial American, for one.  Offenders were commonly thrown in the stocks where onlookers would shout and throw things.  Ever read The Scarlet Letter?  Public shaming was used to keep sinners in line.

[Conan Troutman]

So not only are Ellaria and the Tennage Mutant Dornish Turtles murderers, they apparently don't give a shit about the mess Trystane might find himself in with the Lannisters now.

 

Yeah, I don't get their stupid "plan" either. War at all costs, what a great idea! Doran is also not all that smart, really. It was so painfully obvious that Ellaria would do something like this. Why didn't he at the very least keep them imprisoned until the ship has sailed? Or, you know, not fucking invite them to the goodbye??? Also, that was a comically strange way to poison her. I was thinking, what the hell, is she giving her the tongue now? The Dornish have a reputation for being sexually open, but that's a bit much even for them.  I even forgot about the whole poison stuff for a moment because of that.

 

I knew Jaime/Myrcella's sudden father/daughter moment could lead nowhere good, remembering the last touching father/daughter, but I wasn't expecting her to die right in that very scene. And IA with others that this shit sl was not worth recasting Myrcella 1.0, it wasn't like with Tommen where they needed a teenager playing a pre-teen to make a sex scene less skeevy.

 

Ha, exactly how I felt. "Oh Myrcella, you're so dead. Oh, you're really dead already. That went fast."

+1 on the recasting bit. It's not that new!Myrcella was bad or anything, but old!Myrcella probably could've pulled off those couple of scenes just as well.

 

Exactly. Kit is just doing good publicity for the show. Notice he says that as far as he knows that Jon is dead and it is up to D&D where the story goes next. He puts it on them. He can say later on that they changed their minds and that he was not lying when he is back next season. Unless I read that Kit has booked new projects for during the filming of Game of Thrones, I will remain confident that Jon will be brought back to life by Mellisandre next season. Why else is she back at the Wall?

 

Maybe they D&D really did tell him that he wouldn't be back, so he could sound a bit more believable during the crazy interview run he'll have in the next week or two. Then again, he's an actor, so he could just continue to play the part. I wouldn't even be surprised if HBO goes the extra mile and fake casts him for another show. I don't think they believe they can truly fool everybody, but  spreading a shimmer of doubt instead of just announcing "yeah, he'll be back" is going to do a lot already.

 

Good call on the breadcrumb being a ring from Hiz, checking the ep stills I don't think she had it before 5.06. The ring on her left hand is one she's had since the pilot. Thinking of Dany's hands, after the handholding last week I'm glad Daario knows that Dany/Missandei is the real otp.

 

That's why I love Cersei as a villain. She's one bitch that can never be kept down for long.

 

They really have great chemistry. We can even call them "Miserys", which is quite fitting with the general tone of the show...

 

ITA, Cersei's definitely my favorite villain now that the Joffers and Tywin are dead. But we've had just the right amount of her dwelling in the cell and now her big public humiliation, I want her to get back to being active again. Maybe start with keeping your promise of killing that Septa? And the High Sparrow needs a special fate, too, I still haven't forgiven him for murdering the beer.

 

Ellaria has to be toast now; Bronn will know by the symptoms that it was Sand Snake poison.

 

Well, anyone with half a brain could figure that out. Which of course rules out the entirety of Dorne.

If it's going to be a plot point that Ellaria and the Bland Snakes were acting on their own, it of course will end in Cersei totally ignoring that fact and declaring war on Dorne anyway. At least a lot of those stupid suckers are going to bite it, so that's a win I guess.

 

Kevan probably realized High Sparrow had the backing of KL's people.  Forceful retraction of Cersei would result in riot.  Plus it was to his advantage to let High Sparrow soften Cersei a little bit.

 

My question is what happened to Margery and Loras ?  Did they get their trials ? Did they confess ?  For something that was supposed to be a big deal for Olenna, the show was strangely quiet about it.

 

Kevan also doesn't give a flying fuck about Cersei's well being. In fact, he has every reason to hate her after what her stupid schemes and all the incest have brought onto the entire house Lannister, including having Kevan's (sole?) heir deflect to the Faith Militant.

 

Nothing happened to Margaery and Loras, nothing at all. I hoped we'd get at least a hint of a possible resolution, but alas, nope, nada. At least it keeps us busy speculating during the hiatus, so that's that.

 

As the daughter of a Navy officer, that bugged me as well! You'd think nit-picky Stannis would not make such an error.

 

Of all people, the King of Grammar is the last person I expected to make such a mistake. Daughter burning hypocrite.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[iMonrey]

I'm just really tired of watching a show where the bad guys always win. It's depressing.

 

I'm going to take the producers' and actor's words at face value and assume that Jon Snow is in fact dead, gone, and not coming back. I don't know where it gets Kit Harrington to put on a big song and dance about being let go if it's just a ruse. So if Jon Snow is dead what the hell was the entire point of this storyline since Season 1? 

 

As the story trudges along year after year I become more and more convinced it has no real end-game in mind and is more about generating an income for the writers, producers, etc. It's about delivering shock value because every time they kill off a major character or fan favorite they know they'll get buzz because it's so "daring." But unexpected for the sake of being unpredictable and no other is frustrating as hell to watch. 

 

I'm surprised nobody seems all that concerned about Drogon because to me it looked like he was dying after the attack in the arena, not just sleepy. And if they kill off Drogon (which I fully expect at this point), what becomes of the other two dragons, locked away miles from Dany? Will they be killed too? Probably. Which makes Dany's entire story line just as pointless as Jon Snow's.

 

Honestly, I give up.

[Calamity Jane]

Yeah, I don't get their stupid "plan" either. War at all costs, what a great idea! Doran is also not all that smart, really. It was so painfully obvious that Ellaria would do something like this. Why didn't he at the very least keep them imprisoned until the ship has sailed? Or, you know, not fucking invite them to the goodbye??? Also, that was a comically strange way to poison her. I was thinking, what the hell, is she giving her the tongue now? The Dornish have a reputation for being sexually open, but that's a bit much even for them.  I even forgot about the whole poison stuff for a moment because of that.

 

 

Ha, exactly how I felt. "Oh Myrcella, you're so dead. Oh, you're really dead already. That went fast."

+1 on the recasting bit. It's not that new!Myrcella was bad or anything, but old!Myrcella probably could've pulled off those couple of scenes just as well.

 

 

Maybe they D&D really did tell him that he wouldn't be back, so he could sound a bit more believable during the crazy interview run he'll have in the next week or two. Then again, he's an actor, so he could just continue to play the part. I wouldn't even be surprised if HBO goes the extra mile and fake casts him for another show. I don't think they believe they can truly fool everybody, but  spreading a shimmer of doubt instead of just announcing "yeah, he'll be back" is going to do a lot already.

 

 

They really have great chemistry. We can even call them "Miserys", which is quite fitting with the general tone of the show...

 

ITA, Cersei's definitely my favorite villain now that the Joffers and Tywin are dead. But we've had just the right amount of her dwelling in the cell and now her big public humiliation, I want her to get back to being active again. Maybe start with keeping your promise of killing that Septa? And the High Sparrow needs a special fate, too, I still haven't forgiven him for murdering the beer.

 

 

Well, anyone with half a brain could figure that out. Which of course rules out the entirety of Dorne.

If it's going to be a plot point that Ellaria and the Bland Snakes were acting on their own, it of course will end in Cersei totally ignoring that fact and declaring war on Dorne anyway. At least a lot of those stupid suckers are going to bite it, so that's a win I guess.

 

 

Kevan also doesn't give a flying fuck about Cersei's well being. In fact, he has every reason to hate her after what her stupid schemes and all the incest have brought onto the entire house Lannister, including having Kevan's (sole?) heir deflect to the Faith Militant.

 

Nothing happened to Margaery and Loras, nothing at all. I hoped we'd get at least a hint of a possible resolution, but alas, nope, nada. At least it keeps us busy speculating during the hiatus, so that's that.

 

 

Of all people, the King of Grammar is the last person I expected to make such a mistake. Daughter burning hypocrite.

Grammatically it is correct, semantically not. 

I'm just really tired of watching a show where the bad guys always win. It's depressing.

 

I'm going to take the producers' and actor's words at face value and assume that Jon Snow is in fact dead, gone, and not coming back. I don't know where it gets Kit Harrington to put on a big song and dance about being let go if it's just a ruse. So if Jon Snow is dead what the hell was the entire point of this storyline since Season 1? 

 

As the story trudges along year after year I become more and more convinced it has no real end-game in mind and is more about generating an income for the writers, producers, etc. It's about delivering shock value because every time they kill off a major character or fan favorite they know they'll get buzz because it's so "daring." But unexpected for the sake of being unpredictable and no other is frustrating as hell to watch. 

 

I'm surprised nobody seems all that concerned about Drogon because to me it looked like he was dying after the attack in the arena, not just sleepy. And if they kill off Drogon (which I fully expect at this point), what becomes of the other two dragons, locked away miles from Dany? Will they be killed too? Probably. Which makes Dany's entire story line just as pointless as Jon Snow's.

 

Honestly, I give up.

That's the read I got on Drogon, not just tired or hungry, but badly injured and trying to heal.  Guess we'll see.  I keep saying that. 

[terrymct]

Wasn't that her Dothraki wedding ring? I believe once a Khol falls, the Dothraki tradition is to kill the whole family so there is no battle for succession.

I thought it was her Mereen wedding ring, from her sham husband who was killed in the last episode. Don't Dothraki women marry for life? If she hasn't remarried, she's still a khaleesi.

[Conan Troutman]

Other stuff:

 

Lena Headey really knocked it out of the park and then some all season and especially this week. She needs all the awards! I wish there would be less talk about body doubles and whatnot, and more praise for her fantastic performance.

 

Arya going all crazy on Meryn Trant was both awesome and disturbing. Nice how she didn't flinch when he whipped her, so apparently she did learn a bit more than how to sweep floors and wash bodies - her stint with the Faceless Men was at least worth something. Other than her going blind, but I doubt that's going to last. If it would, the show could've easily have her getting blinded in the regular hot iron to the eyes fashion, doubling down on the shock factor as it seems to be its MO anyway. Instead, it was was magical, so it should be easily removable. It might be more of a lesson instead of pure punishment, which she certainly would've deserved for really screwing up in a big way.

Which is why I have the feeling that the FM won't throw her out of the academy just yet. If they wanted to do that, Jaqen could've just killed her. But apparently he's feeling enough sympathy/pity for her that he chose to take one for the team instead. And then magically transform from little girl to grown man. WTF?

Overall, that plot was hit-and-miss. I liked the world building and the House of Black and White, great use of the fantasy genre here. But Arya didn't really evolve as a character, at least not in the right direction - if anything, she took a step backwards. But maybe that was the point, she needed to go one step to take two forward next season. We'll see.

 

I liked how they handled Stannis' downfall. Half of the killers-for-hire deserting because even they couldn't justify working for him any longer was a great follow up on last weeks scene. It was awesome how that decision came back to bite him so quickly. The only part that wasn't handled as well was Mel's exit. I wish we had been given a bit more screen time with her realizing what happened. But I disagree with those who said she was deliberately sabotaging Stannis. I can see why people think that, and that's exactly why I wanted the show to take more time to show her departure (or maybe it was intended to be ambiguous). She may be evil or not, but she did leave because she realized that she was betting on the wrong horse all along. And maybe, just maybe the look on her face when Davos asked her about Shireen was also a bit of regret about what she did. Maybe try to redeem yourself a bit by resurrecting Jon now?

 

Sansa and Theon jumping was a weird cliffhanger, well, cliffjumper to be exact. But if Sherlock can pull it off, why not? Only in this case, they could totally just be dead. But I hope not, not just because I like Sansa, but because that would be a freaking depressing end of her story. Though it still beats being crippled and then found by Ramsay and I can only hope D&D won't go in that direction. 

If she does survive and escapes, she'll get picked up by either Brienne or Littlefinger, or Brienne picks her up, then takes her to LF. I want her to go full Arya-on-Meryn-Trant on him for having the genius idea of marrying her to Ramsey Fucking Bolton.

 

So excited Varys is back, he's da man! Of course now the season is over, sigh. But him and Tyrion are the only people capable of cleaning up the mess Dany left them. For some reason, I'm also looking forward to Jorah and Daario, they could be fun. 

 

One last thought: The White Walkers probably went from Hardhome straight back to their place to catch up on the last two episodes and have a good laugh. The supposed savior of mankind just went out in a glorious, self inflicted mess, another war is about to start in the south over yet another stupid murder and to top it all off, their only worthy opponent has just been slain by his own men. Good times.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[Philbert]

 

I'm just really tired of watching a show where the bad guys always win. It's depressing.

 

Cersei lost big time last night...so did Ramsey in a way, since he know longer has his noble brood-mare at hand to pump out Bolton/Starks to secure his claim. She's either dead or (more likely fled). Once it gets out she's loose and back in the North, they'll abandon the Boltons in droves. People all felt like this after the Red Wedding: the Lannisters were on the march, and the Starks were scattered to the wind. Now Tywin and two of his grandchildren are dead, and his youngest son is out to destroy his daughter...by helping to put the daughter of the man he betrayed back on the Iron Throne. Early season Four was the high water mark of the Lannisters-they're on their way out now. As for another Stark being dead, well I have my doubts that he'll stay that way and we'll leave it at that.

[bmoore4026]

Well, I just found out Kit Harrington won't be back next season.

 

The last really good character on the show has been killed by morons.  At least Sam got away.  There's that.

[Rahul]

Oops...posted in the wrong thread. I haven't read past book 2 so I'm re-posting this here.

 

That slut shaming scene would have been more potent if it weren't so obvious that they used a body double and CGI'ed Lena Headey's face on. It was even more conspicuous in the cellars of the Sept though, with the real Lena being shown from the neck up and then the body double when nudity was called for. I could totally tell it was someone else behind the wet, stringy hair before it was shorn off. Shame indeed, GoT! Shame, shame for such a badly rendered bait and switch.

 

In other news, I'm kind of loving Dany with dirt on her face. I love rooting for the underdog and it looks like its back to square one now that she's somewhere in the Dothraki Sea with a khalasar that would likely see her returned to Vaes Dothrak with the other former khaleesi widows.

[Rahul]

Honestly, that walk of shame is one of the bravest things I've seen an actor do. That went on forever.

I'd agree, if she hadn't used a body double.

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-walk-shame

Edited June 15, 2015 by Rahul

[paigow]

Tyrion: Your queen is missing.

Jorah: We must look for her.

Darrio: Two of us should be enough to rescue her.

Jorah: Agreed. Get fresh horses and ride SLOWLY.

[MrWhyt]

Well, I just found out Kit Harrington won't be back next season

Correction, he's saying he won't be back next season.

[HumblePi]

I'm pretty sure the ring was symbolic of her marriage to Hizdahr zo Loraq. A Khaleesi is traditionally supposed to live with the crones of the Dosh Khaleen shortly after her Khal dies. Since Daenerys failed to do so, they may be upset if they find out that she remarried, especially that she got married again to a nobleman of Meereen, Hizdahr zo Loraq.

[Conan Troutman]

Thing is, a lot of things have changed for the Lannisters since then.  Dead Tywin changed the game.  Imprisoning the Kings' wife and brother-in-law and Cersei's downfall changed the game.  At this point, the remaining Lannisters are barely hanging on to the Throne, and we're likely to see Tommen's downfall and death as soon as Cersei's trial happens unless they rid the world of Sparrows before then.  Even then, all those folks in KL calling Cersei a brother-fucker aren't going to forget that Tommen is a bastard.  

 

The Lannisters have bigger fish to fry in the form of staying alive.  I don't think they are capable of launching any kind of war, even against tiny Dorne. 

 

Sure, but Cersei will be damned if she's letting such trivial things as reason or not having an army interfere with her wrecking things up and starting a war. Her and Ellaria would get along greatly if they weren't after each other's throats.

[HumblePi]

I'd agree, if she hadn't used a body double.

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-walk-shame

I think there's a lot of confusion and misinformation regarding whether or not Lena Headey did her own nude scenes. Yes, I have also read that a body double was used, but not for all the scenes. The scene took 3 days to film and a body double was used for a lot of the shots, overhead, back and side. But I believe that Lena Headey did her own scenes when she walks forward towards the camera. All nude scenes are invariably broken down piece by piece and dissected to death, but Lena Headey has appeared nude in other movies and I don't see why she would object to it. So there you have it. Yes, there was a body double used at various points in the scene. All that’s left now is to find out just WHO the body double was and where the body double was used. That's if we even care, or think it matters in any way.

 

3 instances that I can tell a body double was used. First after her hair was cut a body double could have been used and then the scene showed her from above, sitting down with her head lowered, her face concealed. I think that was a body double. After that a shot from behind her, not showing her face. Basically any scene that didn't show her face but showed her naked could have been a body double. But when they stripped off her garment at the top of the stairs and she stood naked, I believe that was Lena Headey. If you watch closely, any scene that was shot from above, behind or far away could have easily been a body double. The full frontal shots at closer range I believe were her.

[Mz Anthrope]

I am only on page 1 of reading all the comments, but to me much of this lame fail of a season seems like it could have been written by the same dudes who write the scripts for the WWE story-lines.  Stupid sand idiots.  Numerous gratuitous/reaching/telesgraphing/plunked in for some reason scenes.  Lack of continuity or heaped with hints and tells that it's a relief to have the scene finally come and go. 

 

Have to say - LOVE the WW scenes, Tyrion and Varys, and how much Jon has ... HAD... grown.  Those story lines were most likely written by Jim Ross, maybe. 

 

Wow.  For me, a disappointing season.  I am more sad about the fact that I don't have that "I HAVE TO WAIT A WHOLE YEAR TO FIND OUT X?!?!" feeling after the last episode. 

 

Oooo... new season of True Detective might take this bad taste out of my mouth. 

Thanks for allowing me what's most likely not a popular view rant  :-)

Edited to correct :  Telegraphing instead of telescoping.  Damned depressing even my rant looked stupid

Edited June 15, 2015 by Mz Anthrope

[bunnyblue]

After reading Kit Harrington's comments in EW and Vulture, my belief that Jon Snow isn't really dead has taken a hit. Yeah, he could be lying but he's not being coy and deflecting questions. Dude flat out says he's done with the show. Sigh.

 

Now I'm starting to wonder if Melisandre's return to Castle Black was just a red herring. A lot of viewers are expecting Mel to resurrect Jon at some point, but the show has made it clear she does not have that power. Thoros of Myr does and he only stumbled upon it. Mel was genuinely surprised and freaked out when she learned how and how many times Beric had been brought back from the dead. She's in the business of sacrificing people and he's in the business of bringing a guy back to life.

 

So, why would Melisandre reverse course and want to resurrect Jon Snow? Why would she try magic she doesn't possess on a guy she's not invested in? Yeah, she tried to seduce him and has been giving him weird looks but I don't think it's because she suspects he may be The Prince that Was Promised. Maybe she's just attracted to the pretty crow. She looked defeated when she returned to CB; not like a priestess who realized she was backing the wrong guy and had to hightail it back to Jon and share her epiphany. Mel's probably sulking in her room while Jon is dying and alone. How will Mel know what's happened and what should be done? GRRM and the show pride themselves in subverting tropes, so I think they are setting me up for another gut punch in regards to Mel and Jon. 

[catrox14]

My head!canon about how Jon could come back is the last long look he exchanged with the White Walker King ( I can't remember it's name if it had one).  It was almost a weird admiration they seemed to have for each other.  So maybe the White Walker King will raise Jon to be his leader of the White Walkers.  That would mean Kit isn't lying bout Jon Snow being really dead but leaves him open to come back in s7 if they have one as ice!Zombie!Jon Snow. 

 

But other than that, I think he really is dead and it sucks.

[DrSpaceman]

Well any other character I would have felt bad for, but considering all the things Cersei did and has done to others, including contributing to their gruesome deaths, can't say I had much empathy for her with her punishment. She never even admitted to the real crime of sex with her brother. Kudos to whoever called her saying she would admit to incest with a cousin and not her brother

I have read all the theories on Jon Snow's death and will just wait and see what happens, not sure what to believe. Oh and thanks Yahoo for spoiling that ending for me. Front page this morning before I had a chance to watch the show, telling me of show deaths in the headlines with his picture next to the story. Bastards.

So who has a legitimate claim to the throne now with Stanis dead? Is that blacksmith apprentice bastard son still alive? I honestly don't recall. And next to him, who has an actual blood claim to the throne with Stanis dead.

[VCRTracking]

I don't expect them to show Mel bringing back Jon right away in the first episode next season. Just little clues like the Night's Watch not even bothering to burn his body and  things like that.

[LuciaMia]

 

And I know who will be first in her sights:

Don't forget that snotty little nun who walked behind her yelling 'Shame'

[Byzantine]

 

That's the read I got on Drogon, not just tired or hungry, but badly injured and trying to heal.  Guess we'll see.  I keep saying that. 

That is exactly how I saw it.  Was he tired? sure he was injured and had flown a long way in that injured state but he was actually licking his wounds.  He was badly injured and I really thought he was going to die last night.  Other than fire I don't think he could fight off those warriors surrounding Dany if he had too.

[Calamity Jane]

Don't forget that snotty little nun who walked behind her yelling 'Shame'

Was she the one Cersei warned?  I really can't tell them apart in those habits. 

[SimoneS]

I'm a big Walking Dead fan too, but the thing that Walking Dead does a lot better than GoT is that Walking Dead gives some really satisfying payoffs and actually closes out story arcs.  Maybe not the main story arc, but the seasonal arcs.  GoT just rambles on like a long soap opera.

 

You are criticizing the genre of science fantasy, not Game of Thrones. In the science fantasy genre, there are no satisfying payoffs or story arcs until the end of the adventure. The transcendental science fantasy trilogy, Lord of the Rings is the perfect example. The fellowship moves from encounter to encounter as they are on their separate arcs. It is only in the final book when the ring is destroyed that there is satisfying ending.

Edited June 16, 2015 by SimoneS

[myname2use4now]

One thing that bothers me about the Dorne mishandling with this--they have Keisha Castle-Hughes, a bloody Oscar nominee (the youngest Best Actress nominee ever) and they didn't even use her. She had, what 10 lines altogether? Criminal.

 

Also, like everyone else, I hate Ellaria's need for revenge. Oberyn knew what he was getting into. No one forced him to champion Tyrion. I'd love to see Ellaria with a better storyline, as I love that actress (she was awesome in Rome).

 

 

Oh, but her angry face was worth another three or four lines.

[wayne67]

Ellaria got on my damn nerves this season.

 

 

Oberyn volunteered to rep Tyrion in Trial by Combat and died in battle.

 

I could see if he won, killed Mountain and was slaughtered by the King's Guard afterwards. 

 

So much for what he told Cersei last season.

 

"We don't hurt little girls in Dorne."

 

OOPS!

 

To be fair to Oberon and his claim... Myrcella didn't die in Dorne she died on the water outside Dorne so technically she wasn't hurt IN DORNE. Maybe that's the reason they were trying to drag her away from the palace so they could kill her off territory.

 

They've never made much sense though. If Trystane just lost his wife to be why would he want to continue to Kings Landing? He'd be better off returning to Dorne and his kingdom than going to a place run by the family of a dead princess .

 

Personally I'm not outraged by the good guys dying or the bad guys making more progress in the short term. My issues are that a whole bunch of story lines are left in limbo while boring pointless storylines are introduced. For instance instead of spending quite a lot of this season with the tedious Sand Snakes they could have simply killed Myrcella off screen before Jamie arrived. Then we could have used the extra 30 minutes that would have saved on that tedious storyline and checked in on the Qarth wizards, Bran's elf quest, Rickons whereabouts, a reason for why the White Walkers are taking their sweet time to head south and or more time spent with dragons/ dire wolves.

[peggy06]

So, why would Melisandre reverse course and want to resurrect Jon Snow? Why would she try magic she doesn't possess on a guy she's not invested in? Yeah, she tried to seduce him and has been giving him weird looks but I don't think it's because she suspects he may be The Prince that Was Promised. Maybe she's just attracted to the pretty crow. She looked defeated when she returned to CB; not like a priestess who realized she was backing the wrong guy and had to hightail it back to Jon and share her epiphany. Mel's probably sulking in her room while Jon is dying and alone. How will Mel know what's happened and what should be done? GRRM and the show pride themselves in subverting tropes, so I think they are setting me up for another gut punch in regards to Mel and Jon. 

Back when Stannis & Co. first arrived at Castle Black, and Melisandre was eyeing Jon, it really did seem like she was getting a vibe from him - a kingly vibe. She also seemed to find him hot, but I don't think there would have been all those looks if that was all it was. She always seemed to be watching him. Then remember she came on to him in a recent episode, and he repulsed her advances, and she left with the line "You know nothing, Jon Snow." These interactions seem pointed, beyond mere time-filler byplay between characters. So, yes, I think she may have decided to test it out with Jon, since Stannis turned out to be a bust. And I think she may try the resurrecting thing, because desperate times and all that. Thoros found out he had the ability by accident, right? Maybe Mel's powers are greater now and she has it, too. Maybe the situation will bring it out in her. 

 

It's not that I'm some huge fan of Jon or Kit Harrington. Only this season has Jon even vaguely interested me as a character. But there has simply been too much build-up of that character for me to believe he gets written off at this point. Another thing, he is the only one (except the Wildlings) who actually understands first-hand what the White Walkers can do. He's the link with that storyline.

 

I think he is coming back. Maybe not till Season 7, but he'll be back.

Edited June 16, 2015 by peggy06

[Macbeth]

Jon Snow will be revived. There is no doubt in my mind.

 

1.  The Wall is too important a location in the story of "Winter is Coming" to go on hiatus.  How the Wildings integrate themselves into Westeros is too important a story to go on hiatus. 

 

2.  Davos is there.  They made a point that he is no military leader - but he is good advisor.  He was the man who talked the Bank of Bravos into loaning Stannis loads of money.  Davos has been an important character since S2.  Not flashy but steadfast.  Davos is in the same position as Tyrion was last season - a good advisor in need of a good leader to advise. 

 

3.  Melisandre is there.  God I wish she would disappear from my screen.  If she isn't there to revive Jon, why have her there?  By rights she should have made haste and left Westeros for good - but there she was at the Wall.  Granted if she revives Jon it would be the first useful thing she has ever done....

[Stardancer Supreme]

And Myrcella is Juliet.

Also, yeah, I totally agree they were going for an "Et tu" moment, but... With Olly? Really? I mean, if the final stab was from Edd, I'd be shocked. If it were from Sam, I'd be horrified. If it were from Tormund, or Ghost, or Quiet Never-Growing Baby, I'd be very confused. But that scene had all of the predictability of Shireen's burning, minus the quality.

 

This. And Olly going all "For the Watch".  Now it might have been more powerful if he said "For my Parents".  Hell, I could have written better dialogue in my sleep!

[HumblePi]

That is exactly how I saw it.  Was he tired? sure he was injured and had flown a long way in that injured state but he was actually licking his wounds.  He was badly injured and I really thought he was going to die last night.  Other than fire I don't think he could fight off those warriors surrounding Dany if he had too.

He flew to a bone graveyard. I don't think he'll make it.

[Taget]

I'm not the one saying Myrcella's death will start a war.  I don't think there will be a war over Myrcella at all.  I think it's just another rock dropped into an ocean.

 

Why do people think this will start a war?  By whom against whom?

 

The Lannisters will blame Dorne.  And Myrcella seems to be afflicted with a similar poison to the one that hit Bronn a few episodes back.  And I am sure he'll inform Jaime.  On the other hand without proof Doran has no choice but to support his own.  And if Trystane is taken back to King's Landing to be placed in a black cell as payback for the death of Myrcella that will certainly mean war.

 

But the risk of war with Dorne is not what threatens the Lannisters the most.  After all Prince Doran has shown little appetite for war and if you've seen what war is like and what it has done to everyone big and small in Westeros who can blame him?  The Lannisters could barely control King's Landing and secured two alliances to cement their control.  One with the Tyrell's which is now dead.  And with the Martells.  Which undoubtably is dead as well.  With the faith militant armed to the teeth the Lannister hold on King's Landing is even more flimsy.  In short everything Tyrion and Tywin worked to achieve has been undone.  All in part due to the schemes of Cersei Lannister.

 

 

Kevan also doesn't give a flying fuck about Cersei's well being. In fact, he has every reason to hate her after what her stupid schemes and all the incest have brought onto the entire house Lannister, including having Kevan's (sole?) heir deflect to the Faith Militant.

 

 

 

That's an aspect I had not thought of.  Lancel is the son of Kevan.  And not just a Faith Militant but someone who seems to be in a leading role within it.  Perhaps someone who might even lead it in the future if the High Sparrow were to die.  I had only been thinking of Kevan's perspective in terms of protecting House Lannister and it's rule.  But this presents another aspect.  He may not necessarily want to challenge his own son.  Especially to protect a niece he detects and the niece's son who is obviously a product of incest and thus far seems far too weak to be a viable ruler.   Supporting his "own" may not include helping his brother's progeny.

[Conan Troutman]

So, why would Melisandre reverse course and want to resurrect Jon Snow?

 

Same reason she does everything else: She sees some stuff in a vision and misinterprets the hell out of it.

 

I don't think the Thoros stuff was there purely as a red herring. If Mel can't resurrect Jon, why the hell even introduce that stuff in the first place? We're definitely entering act three now, so it's about time for the Chekhov's gun to go off.

 

Speaking of act structure, the overall very dark tone of the season makes more sense when you think about it as the end of act two in a three act structure or it's equivalent in a five act structure. I'm not going to deeply into this here (I think it's worth its own thread, but there's plenty of time for that in the following weeks and months), but generally we've reached the things-are-as-shitty-as-they-can-possibly-get part and things are going to get better as we're heading into the final chapters of the story. I still think the season is rightfully criticized for being too dark, but not because bad things happened but because D&D chose to double down on the misery and forgot the optimistic notes at the end. Ending with a ton of grim looking cliffhangers was a bad choice in my opinion.

 

My head!canon about how Jon could come back is the last long look he exchanged with the White Walker King ( I can't remember it's name if it had one).  It was almost a weird admiration they seemed to have for each other.  So maybe the White Walker King will raise Jon to be his leader of the White Walkers.  That would mean Kit isn't lying bout Jon Snow being really dead but leaves him open to come back in s7 if they have one as ice!Zombie!Jon Snow. 

 

But other than that, I think he really is dead and it sucks.

 

Now that's another interesting possibility. That's the one way Mel-as-red-herring works. I've said before how you can spin the Ice and Fire part so that Jon ends up on the ice side, teaming up with the WW and fighting Dany and her fire, but I had no idea how Jon could possibly team up with them - but that's a great way of doing so.

 

Either way, I think Martin invested way too much time on his character to kill him off for good. You can do that in the early to middle parts of a story, as he did with Ned and Robb, but that late it's not going to work, it's simply bad storytelling. You can defy genre tropes, but you can't break the rules of storytelling without the story suffering greatly.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[Mya Stone]

I, for one, am just relieved to finally have a major season long mystery solved.

The only reason they showed naked Myranda in the scene with Ramsay was to give us the pay off of the delightful crunch of her bones as they smashed on the WF stones.

This show...it's changed me. I was never this twisted before, I swear.

[Snaporaz]

He flew to a bone graveyard. I don't think he'll make it.

I thought those bones were the remnants of meals Drogon had consumed?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Snaporaz

[Calamity Jane]

I thought those bones were the remnants of meals Drogon had consumed?

That was my assumption - that this had been his hangout and he returned there with Dany. 

[bunnyblue]

I thought those bones were the remnants of meals Drogon had consumed?

 

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it. It's where he's been hanging out (in addition to Old Valyria) since he ran away from home. I find it interesting that he's set up a home of sorts in his country of birth, the Dothraki Sea. 

[missy jo]

removed 

 

Inspiring compassion for an irredeemable *female* character through sexual humiliation is a familiar and overused trope, and lazy writing. And based on some comments saying how happy they were to see that uppity bitch Cersei finally get hers, the writers may have failed, because they inspired glee instead of compassion in some viewers.

 

A great show should be able to depict a horror without seeming to fetishize and glory in it. On GoT, the rape and torture porn and degradation of female characters seems to be for pure shock value. At this point, it would be more shocking *not* to see it. Here, I'd also include Trant's pedophilia/sadistic fetishes, which were established last episode but of course had to be shown again and in more detail on the finale.

 

Another example is how long and drawn out the scene was. They establish the point they're trying to make, and then keep on and on until it becomes completely gratuitous. Everyone's beloved Jon Snow got less screen time for his *death* than was spent on Cersei's walk!

 

As for the sexual habits of the show writers, maybe they just get a lot of "bad pussy." Sand Snakes

 

Loved your post, Timetoread. You're the real MVP!

[MadZither]

At our house, we think that, yes, the ring that Dany takes off is the ring from the new dead hubby as others have said. Since she knows the ways of the Dothraki, it's best that she not have it on. Also, it might sound silly but it's our conjecture that Drogon's been going to that Dothraki hideaway for a while now, esp since it seems that he's had plenty of horses to eat - rather, given horses to eat (as evidenced by the well established what looks like horse bone pile). One way to get the Queen of Dragons to return is to get on her dragon's good side and have him bring her back. I wouldn't put it past Drogon to be a bit angry too at Dany for locking up the others. Dragons can have love/hate.

It was a good episode and season. Predictable? Yes. Heavy-handed? Yep. Gratuitous? Yes, certainly. Entertaining? Absolutely. But, Jon Snow gone??? Please no. Please. !

Edited June 16, 2015 by MadZither

[peggy06]

Same reason she does everything else: She sees some stuff in a vision and misinterprets the hell out of it.

 

I don't think the Thoros stuff was there purely as a red herring. If Mel can't resurrect Jon, why the hell even introduce that stuff in the first place? We're definitely entering act three now, so it's about time for the Chekhov's gun to go off.

I felt sure Jon wasn't dead-for-good, but your post makes me even more certain. Why show a priest who can resurrect, indeed? What plot point was advanced by showing it? (I can't remember in great detail that far back, but nothing comes to mind.)

 

Your analogy to the second act of a play is another very good point and makes better sense of the season as a whole.

[Mya Stone]

Snark the show, not each other means PRECISELY that. 

 

Agree to disagree and move on, guys. If you can't post with being respectful to each other, don't post. 

[Dobian]

You are criticizing the genre of science fantasy, not Game of Thrones. In the science fantasy genre, there are no satisfying payoffs or story arcs until the end of the adventure. The transcendental science fantasy trilogy, Lord of the Rings is perfect example. The fellowship moves from encounter to encounter as they are on their separate arcs. It is only in the final book when the ring is destroyed that there is satisfying ending.

 

No, I'm criticizing Game of Thrones, not science fantasy.  First of all, Game of Thrones is not science fantasy.  Star Wars is science fantasy.  There is no science in Game of Thrones, it is simply fantasy.  Second, there is no rule that in the fantasy genre you always have a single arc with no satisfying conclusion until the end.  There are a number of ways that Game of Thrones could have been written to give more payoffs along the way, even if there isn't a resolution to the main arc until the final episode.  Harry Potter had a main story arc too: Defeat Voldemort.  But each individual book and film still had its own arc with a satisfying payoff.  Being that Game of Thrones is a television series running for several years, it needs to do a better job of narrative pacing or it will start to look like it's simply spinning its wheels like what happened with Lost.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dobian

[morgankobi]

I think there's a lot of confusion and misinformation regarding whether or not Lena Headey did her own nude scenes. Yes, I have also read that a body double was used, but not for all the scenes. The scene took 3 days to film and a body double was used for a lot of the shots, overhead, back and side. But I believe that Lena Headey did her own scenes when she walks forward towards the camera. All nude scenes are invariably broken down piece by piece and dissected to death, but Lena Headey has appeared nude in other movies and I don't see why she would object to it. So there you have it. Yes, there was a body double used at various points in the scene. All that’s left now is to find out just WHO the body double was and where the body double was used. That's if we even care, or think it matters in any way.

 

3 instances that I can tell a body double was used. First after her hair was cut a body double could have been used and then the scene showed her from above, sitting down with her head lowered, her face concealed. I think that was a body double. After that a shot from behind her, not showing her face. Basically any scene that didn't show her face but showed her naked could have been a body double. But when they stripped off her garment at the top of the stairs and she stood naked, I believe that was Lena Headey. If you watch closely, any scene that was shot from above, behind or far away could have easily been a body double. The full frontal shots at closer range I believe were her.

 

Sorry, but even to my untrained eye, more than a couple of the head-to-toe, frontal shots while walking were of another body with Lena's face superimposed on top. On our tv, it was actually a little creepy and distracting. My husband spotted even more and was theorizing how they were put together (most likely a composite of three different shots done with the cool body suits that are covered in motion-capture triangles).  I personally don't care who was naked or not, or why, but the special effects were a little distracting.

Edited June 16, 2015 by morgankobi

[paperplate]

I think this finale and season has finally made me over this show (which is a good thing because was becoming too obsessed). I will now binge watch all seasons because the episodes aren't strong enough on their own (with the exception of eps 8 &9)

My biggest complaint with this episode is that I don't know who is really dead

and all of loose ends. Since scifi/fantasy/magic is involved, I need to see a dead body. I mean we don't even know if Drogon is dead for christ's sake. And what the hell happened to Margaraey?

I also don't like the introduction of new characters when they make original ones take a back seat. All of Dorne was a waste, especially with a show that has 10 m hours (even less actually) per year. We also saw too much of Jorah, Brienne and Arya all though I love them all - the point each character made did not deserve that much screen time.

Even the dragons are not getting enough screen time. It reminds of Terra Nova on Fox - a show about dinosaurs but only 1 or 2 eps featuring actual dinosaurs.

I don't care how much it costs HBO (they owe it to me for canceling Rome), I want more dragons. I also want to not go through entire seasons without seeing ALL of the remaining Starks. And I want to see Osha and the beautiful direwolves. Ten seconds of ghost is not enough.

Also, I will miss hearing Stannis' name. Stannis Baretheon is an awesome name.

Edited June 16, 2015 by paperplate