S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[Sarah D. Bunting]

How do you end a season of Game Of Thrones? By killing off many, many characters! There's also a dragon; Monty Ashley has more! http://previously.tv/game-of-thrones/season-ending-massacre/

[proserpina65]

That was an abnormally long nude walk. They were going for uncomfortable but it got boring halfway through.

 

I actually thought it seemed short, compared to the book.

[Constantinople]

I just had a horrible thought. Littlefinger is supposedly riding North with a rested army and the Iron Throne's backing to take Winterfell, and there's no Stannis army to stop him. I mean, if he kills the Boltons, good for him, but I'd rather he keeps his paws off Winterfell and I hope Sansa and Theon are far away by then.

By the time Littlefinger's army gets North, it won't be as rested as it once was. Moreover, Littlefinger was counting on Stannis and Roose wearing each other's army out, but Roose's army looks to be in good shape after destroying Stannis's army.

 

 

The White Walkers just picked up a whole lotta wights. I doubt Stannis's army was burned.

For now though, there are no Walkers around to raise the dead.

 

Arya wasn't punished for stealing from the death god. She was punished for using her skills to settle old vendettas. She's supposed to be nobody, not Arya Stark.

In the Season 2 finale, Jaqen told Arya that she could offer up all of the names on her list to the Red God, one by one.

[loki567]

 

She freed herself from her confinement, waited as long as possible to get rescued using the agreed upon plan and then faced down her attacker who had a weapon pointed at her thereby causing Theon to snap out of his Reek funk. What more do you want from her? I guess she could've taught herself how to fight while in confinement then laid down a can of whoop ass on the Bolton camp and took it over. But that wouldn't have been realistic.

 

Which is still a pretty convoluted way of saying that she stole a knife, opened a door, and got saved by Theon. Ten episodes this season, what did Sansa's plot amount to in the greater scheme of things? Where there's the development for her character? 

[WatchrTina]

I'm still digesting season 5 but for me the worse deviation from the book is that the NW murdering Jon makes no sense without the pink letter and Jon's misguided (and vow-breaking) plan to ride south to aid his family.  Thorne opened the fucking gate to the Wildling horde and he's the one to strike the first blow -- because Jon rescued the Wildings?  WTF?  Every member of the NW that was at Hardholm knows what they are up against -- an inevitable battle between the living and the dead and every Wildling who walked through the gate was one less member of the army of the dead.  So the murder of Jon Snow makes NO sense.  I had expected Ollie to do it.  I would have hated it but I could imagine a child, bent on misguided vengeance, doing a terrible, misguided deed.  Alister Thorne committing a terrible, misguided deed, in the face of all he now knows about the White Walkers and the army of the dead, makes NO sense.

 

As for Brianne missing the signal candle -- it's a good thing she did because what the hell was she supposed to do if she DID see it?  That was another plot that made no sense.  How on earth was Brianne supposed to do anything single-handed against an armed fortress like Winterfell?  Sneak in undetected?  She doesn't exactly blend in anywhere.

 

BTW -- I assume all those raven-grams that Jon was reading was everybody in the North saying, "No we're not sending you aid. We don't believe in White Walkers anymore and winter is coming so we'll be keeping our men and food."

 

I really hope there is some strong magic at work on that wall that keeps White Walkers and the undead behind it because otherwise the North is fucked.  Cold Hands could not pass through the wall (or at least through that one gate that Sam & Gilly passed through)) but those two other wights came through the wall (though they were comatose and carried through my men of the Night's Watch). Is that all that stands between the army of the dead and all of Westeros?  A magic wall?  If so, once those wights learn how to operate boats, the North is fucked.

 

And speaking of Cold Hands, putting Benjen Stark in the "previously" segment at the start of the show was just mean.  I got so excited.  Then I figured it out. (And yes, yes, I know GRRM has said Cold Hands is not Benjen.  Sigh.)

Edited June 15, 2015 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

Good Many-Faced God, how boring were Tyrion's scenes? Why does Grey Worm talk like "Me Tarzan, You Missandei?" Varys's speech to Tyrion kind of made me uncomfortable. It reaked of some racist, colonial garbage. At least it gave a somewhat reasonable explanation for Tyrion to stick around.

Yeah. One minute of peril and then somebody coming in to help her and everyone bowing at her feet sounds about right for Dany.

 

To be fair, Dany's entire Slavers Bay misadventure has always read that way.  It's okay that she's ruling badly because they're just practice subjects and it's not like she plans to stick around to deal with the longterm consequences of her bad decision making anyway.  She'll surely be better at it if she ever gets around to getting to Westeros and ruling over people we care about or at least know the names of.  But sure put a foreign dwarf who's been in town a grand total of about two days and is a complete unknown except for the fact that he was seen in the clusterfuck in the fighting pits in charge.  Because these people have been so receptive to foreign rule by someone who at least came in with some good will and had dragons and an army to back her up.  

 

The scene in the throne room felt like they were trying to recreate the constant sniping and jockeying for position in the Small Council, except for everything that at least made Small Council meetings entertaining.  But Daario is the only one even capable of attempting to banter, so it mostly felt like Tyrion throwing out bon mots to an unappreciative audience that was trying to figure out what the hell they'd gotten themselves into.

 

The Dothraki showing up at the end had the exact same effect on me it did when I read it.  Oh so I suppose it will take us another whole book to see that this is how she acquires a cavalry force for the invasion she's planning ... someday.

[mac123x]

In asnwer to an earlier question, Grey Worm speaks like Tarzan because he's still taking his Westerosi-as-a-second-language classes from Missandei, and he's missed a few sessions being all stabbed, so he's gotten a bit nostril.

 

On Stannis' death, I think the writers/editors were just being creative -- they had Stannis slated to die by Brienne's sword, and Ramsey cleaning up Stannis' men in the scene that followed, so they did some creative hijinks editing. But Stannis is dead.

 

I think he's dead, though I do recall a scene from Season 2 where Jaime is in a pen, with Catelyn and Brienne confronting him that ended with a similar edit. 

 

I don't have a huge problem with Brienne prioritizing killing Stannis over her endless vigil waiting for the Candle in the Wind(ow).  When she swore herself to Catelyn's service, she included the clause "promise me that when the time comes [to kill Stannis], you will not hold me back". 

 

Do none of the other characters on this show remember that Dany has two other dragons living in darkness??  That was one thing I really looked forward to this episode: the freeing of Dany's other dragons.

 

Also, maybe I'm looking for too much, but did anyone think that Jon's eyes glowed, or at least brightened, during a segment of his final scene?

 

I saw that too.  I thought his eyes turned a bit red. 

 

They could have avoided the whole "is he really dead or only a little bit dead" crap for the next 6 months and still had a nice cliff-hanger.  Trim out some of the wasted time on Dorne in this and previous episodes.  Have the stabbing occur earlier in this episode, then finish with Jon emerging alive from his funeral pyre a la Dany.  They'd have people guessing all through the break "wtf was that?".  It's still a cliffhanger, but more hopeful and more likely to draw viewers back for E6.01.

 

If he is well and truly dead, then I wonder if they're reaching the point of audience alienation.  With some of the previous major deaths, they at least had some new and interesting characters added; e.g.,  after Ned and Drogo died, they added Stannis and Davos.  I guess there's some potential with what we've seen of the casting calls for next season, but they'll probably screw up

Randyl Tarley and Euron Greyjoy

as badly as they did the Bland Snakes.  And frankly those characters aren't as interesting and complex as late-comers Oberyn, Grey Worm, Missandei, etc.

[Happy Harpy]

Considering that Jon's death is a cliffhanger in the books, a question GRRM has left open for about 5 years, I'm surprised that the actor and producers are so flippant about revealing his fate, as in dead-dead-so-dead.

Wouldn't that be a major spoiler for TWOW? And yet, no one seems to care: I didn't see any overly dramatic article with "OMG huge spoiler for TWOW" in the title (whereas Benjen in the "previously on" did), or any "ONTD how dared they reveal this!" book purist melt-down either. (As far as I know).

 

There are, as everybody said, tons of logical reasons why Jon can't but still be alive/will be resurrected in-universe. And yes, those reasons that can be overthrown by a whim of the creator, I'm well aware. I do see the "logic", sometimes people with potential die without fullfilling their destinies blah-blah-blah and yes, History is full of those. But this is no History, it's a story, so I can't help, if Jon is truly dead I'd still take it as "See, this is my finger and I give it to you".

 

I think that for 50% D&D couldn't resist a huge cliffhanger galore since it's something they didn't do yet on the show, and something that HBO would certainly approve of, thinking it will boost the viewership. And for 50%, I stick to my opinion that they still hope that GRRM can publish TWOW before S6 and be able to resolve his big cliffhanger in his book. I wonder if they even had a choice, really, if you combine both.

But. I'm more than ever convinced it's a bad idea, and it doesn't fit this show. The story is so emotionally draining, the "wins" are so scarce, that I don't find myself able to feel impatient or to look forward to next season. It's more like I want it to be over already. It's a long wait, especially if you think that it could as well end with no pay off.

As for the viewership, I feel it could be a double-edged sword. It could attract curiosity, but OTOH the situation is so different than Ned's death, or even the Red Wedding. There's almost no one left to root for, this season amped the "no one is safe not only for death, but for the unspeakable". The audience can get bleakness fatigue.

 

And in the light of all this, the PR game is going to really, really annoy me. Fast.

 

I didn't hate Dorne. Some things made sense retrospectively, for example Bronn's poisoning being a "repeat" of Myrcella's -I see why it was there in the first place. But no "Fire and Blood"? No link with Varys, no sign of master plan? Everybody else IIRC is in TWOW territory so I start to believe that maybe, Dorne won't be significant after all. And if indeed all that comes out of this storyline is Myrcella's death...But obviously I don't know the endgame, so I can't judge.

 

The thing that rang false to me was the Jorah/Tyrion snipping. They had that bro thing going for a couple of episodes now, and it came off as a ploy to have Daario as the voice of reason. And I like M.Huisman, but I never managed to like Daario and frankly, he has overwelcome his stay with me.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Raachel2008]

I don't buy for a second that Kit Harrington is telling the truth about not coming back. Jon Snow may be dead, but he will come back.

 

TV series hijacked the books: for me, at least, it is pretty clear that if George R. R. Martin ever intended to really kill Jon Snow (and I don't think he did), he 'can't' now. I understand that we are talking about two 'separate 'entities, but  the way I see it, if the drift is too big it won't work - i.e., if Stannis kills Shireen on TV but not on the next book, how much it affects the 'credibility' of the series or the books? Will people feel cheated one way or another?

 

But even so, there is no one to fill Jon Snow's shoes, as far as archetypes go - and even GoT  is about archetypes: Jon filled Ned's role, but there is no one to fill Jon's.

 

I've always thought that Jon Snow was not really dead in the books, that being betrayed by his brothers was George's way to detach Jon  from the Nigh Watch and give him (George) more room with the character. I think the same about the TV. 

 

And of course Stannis is not dead, we didn't see it and GoT never let pass a chance to show deaaaaath. More likely someone killed Brienne.

 

I liked this season, but I think there were too extremly boring arcs: Arya and Danaerys, and one slap on the face (Dorne).

 

In Arya's case, the transition from book just didn't work that well, she didn't have the same chemistry or even the expected mentor-mentored relationship with Jaqen H’ghar that she had with the Hound. I know we are talking apple and oranges, but it should have worked better IMO.

 

And as far as Danaerys go... Cersei's walk of shame packed more emotion and character development than Danaerys' arc the entire season. I'm not even going to rant about how more empowered Danaerys is in the books x how she most of the time need some counselling in the series, but it was a very very boring season in that aspect, and things only got interesting in Meereen when Tyrion arrived - and Tyrion and Varys rulling Meereen will be a hundred times more interesting than Danaerys trying to find her foot as queen. I just hope that whoever is mastering season 6 has the good sense to make her second round with Dothraki 'quick': another season of Danaerys becoming the leader of something will be excruciating to watch.

 

Dorne was a waste of time and awesome actors.

 

IMO.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Raachel2008

[franopy]

I think that for 50% D&D couldn't resist a huge cliffhanger galore since it's something they didn't do yet on the show, and something that HBO would certainly approve of, thinking it will boost the viewership. And for 50%, I stick to my opinion that they still hope that GRRM can publish TWOW before S6 and be able to resolve his big cliffhanger in his book. I wonder if they even had a choice, really, if you combine both.

But. I'm more than ever convinced it's a bad idea, and it doesn't fit this show. The story is so emotionally draining, the "wins" are so scarce, that I don't find myself able to feel impatient or to look forward to next season. It's more like I want it to be over already. It's a long wait, especially if you think that it could as well end with no pay off.

 

As for the viewership, I feel it could be a double-edged sword. It could attract curiosity, but OTOH the situation is so different than Ned's death, or even the Red Wedding. There's almost no one left to root for, this season amped the "no one is safe not only for death, but for the unspeakable". The audience can get bleakness fatigue.

 

Bleakness fatigue is a wonderful way of putting it. It's what I've been feeling for some time now. 

 

The more I think about that ending, the less I can help but wonder if that wasn't indeed a compromise in order to give Martin the chance to make his own great reveal. From a pure TV series perspective, I remain convinced that having John "die" and come back to life in the same episode would have made for stronger story telling - if Martin really didn't waste everyone's time with years and years of building up a mystery/hero legend, just to pull out the rug under everyone and running off cackling to the bank, while ultimately useless Jon Snow is really dead. I may not be creative enough, but I cannot imagine this being the case because it makes no sense, even in an opus that prides itself of subverting common tropes.  Another reason why I believe they did a disservice to the series is that while people can go on and on about the show and the books being two different beasts, everyone knew about the speculation and anticipation that has been building up for years (thanks again, Martin) and therefore delivering the resolution I assume to come already now would have accomplished giving both unsullied something to hold on to while floating in the sea of GOT despair and book readers an answer to a question that has been around for a really long time. If I am any measure, that would have left many people a lot more interested in finding out what's going to happen next year, but I'm probably not.

 

Another thing that thoroughly annoyed me was the over the top bad timing of Brienne turning away and that damn candle finally lighting up the tower window. That was everyone just happens to be in the Water Gardens at the same time clumsy. I understand the rationale behind it, but would have preferred if the candle light had shown up one scene later, but they probably didn't have enough time.

 

Sansa's timing for making a run for it, on the other hand, was fine with me. In my mind, she has practiced with the tool she found to be ready when the opportunity to flee presented itself. Now I only hope that she and Theon actually make it out and are not unceremoniously recaptured by a pack of hounds and a gleeful Ramsay in the season opener but rather meet Brienne and Pod or someone, anyone who will help them to get away. Preferably to the Wall, for I suppose that's closest considering Melisandre's travelling time. She did look utterly gutted from the moment they heard about the deserters, I'll give her that.

 

Stannis. His downfall and realisation that he's been going about everything completely wrong was masterfully done, Stephen Dilate did a wonderful, wonderful job and made me feel for the character despite everything he had done. I really didn't expect that, but I'm a sucker for tragedies.

 

Oh, and Cersei. Yes, the walk of shame was awful (and it seemed the High Sparrow really got a kick out of it), but she's nowhere near the road to redemption. She was even plotting her revenge while being carried off to a hot bath or whatever by her Zombie weapon of mass destruction, another development I'm not to keen on, but I've already hated it in the books.

 

Finally, Dany. I loved the sounds Drogon made while getting ready for his nap and noticed that the show really seems to like scenes of Dany being encircled by something, it reminded me of the "mhysa" scene in Yunkai from season 3.

[InsertWordHere]

By the time Littlefinger's army gets North, it won't be as rested as it once was. Moreover, Littlefinger was counting on Stannis and Roose wearing each other's army out, but Roose's army looks to be in good shape after destroying Stannis's army.

I meant rested as in unbattled. I'm aware that they will need to march to wherever they're going, assuming Littlefinger was telling the truth and they are going North. I don't think the show will make Littlefinger have to fight his way through the Neck and up the kingsroad. Most likely he'll just show up outside Winterfell one day. A battle between the Boltons and Littlefinger is the true "who do I root for?" situation for me. I hope they destroy each other, but then again, I do want the Vale army in the North. Maybe Ramsay will kill half his men while trying to find Sansa.

[benteen]

Yeah, the writers have given GRRM another nine months to move his ass and get the book done.  Although it takes about five months to edit a book (particularly one of this size) so he'll have to turn it in probably no sooner than October.

[cambridgeguy]

 

But even so, there is no one to fill Jon Snow's shoes, as far as archetypes go - and even GoT  is about archetypes: Jon filled Ned's role, but there is no one to fill Jon's.

They can't permanently kill Jon unless they want to scrap the Wall as a location.  Davos and Mel are there but I can't see them sticking around if Jon's truly gone.  That leaves no relevant characters there with no realistic hope of anyone getting there anytime soon.

 

That being said, even if Jon is resurrected immediately he may just get tossed in a cell and left to rot.  He can follow in the footsteps of Robb AND Ned!

[FlowerofCarnage]

Way to go, Ellaria. You killed an innocent girl(something Oberyn staunchly opposed) and ensured the destruction of the family of your beloved and possibly, your country. I have no doubt Oberyn is rolling in his grave!

[annlaw78]

Look, I hate Cersei as much as the next person, and am eager for her comeuppance. But seeing her literally slutshamed through the streets of KL for essentially (and officially) having an affair with Lancel, was not what I had in mind.

[screamin]

She freed herself from her confinement, waited as long as possible to get rescued using the agreed upon plan and then faced down her attacker who had a weapon pointed at her thereby causing Theon to snap out of his Reek funk. What more do you want from her? I guess she could've taught herself how to fight while in confinement then laid down a can of whoop ass on the Bolton camp and took it over. But that wouldn't have been realistic.

 

 

 

IMO, the only thing that Sansa actively did for herself was unlock the door and put a candle out to request someone else come to rescue her. I didn't see her behavior as "facing down" her attacker...she stood passively there, expressing a wish for suicide, but unwilling to actively force the issue by rushing Miranda. She basically left it entirely in Miranda's hands whether she would die or just be tortured for her amusement with an arrow through some nonessential limb. And I don't think that passiveness was a masterful decision on Sansa's part to "cause Theon to snap out of his Reek funk." That seemed entirely fortuitous. To me, Sansa standing resignedly there in front of Miranda's bow epitomizes the helpless victim role she's been made to play all season.

Edited June 15, 2015 by screamin

[captain1]

I guess I am once again going against the grain here, but I thought this season was fantastic.  I am a semi book reader, having made it through  "A Feast For Crows".  I thought much more happened than the last couple of seasons and that disparate story lines are starting to come together.  The violence, rape and killing doesn't bother me.  I mean, it's a work of fiction, FFS, and depicts a world where life is short and brutal.  Not so much different than some times and places in the real world!

[paramitch]

Such a grim finale. I thought it was an exciting and well-done one though, overall, although as always a few things didn't work for me as well. I do wonder what the ratings/viewers numbers will be like next season with this incredibly nihilistic season and body count. My guess is that they'll get big numbers for the S6 premiere that may downslide if there aren't any other happier revelations (like, oh, Jon being ALIVE or resurrected after all).

 

Yeah, that might be the end of it for me too.  These dudes are CREEPY.  Everything they insert that's not in the books is sadistic brutality of women.  I'm kind of over it.

 

I completely agree with this. We already have set reports of one of the producers frequently asking for multiple takes of brothel scenes "for the pervs in the audience," so I keep trying to figure out which of W&B it is. I do think that it's a really disturbing throughline for them -- they constantly add sick misogynistic violence to scenes that didn't involve it at all in the books. I also thought the Trant beatings/death was almost laughable -- it went on way too long. Better to just see Arya kill him, but no, we had to watch full minutes of Trant beating little girls before he raped the loser, then Arya's very brutal killing (facial stabbings etc) and he's not even high on her list. It just felt gratuitous and padded for me. But I loved the ending with her -- not least because it addressed why Jaquen has felt so much colder than the previous Jaquen.

 

I thought he was outstanding tonight.  That look of recognition when Brienne called him out on murdering Renly was phenomenal.  The realization that he killed not only his only child but his own brother for nothing, all revealed in a single look.

Stephen Dillane is fantastic. In those few minutes of losing more, and more, and more, and more -- by the end he made me feel real regret for Stannis all over again. I'm hoping Brienne's last blow didn't land -- there was a lot of courage and nobility in his admission to her, no matter what other horrible things he did in the name of the red god. Meanwhile, freaking Melisandre just RUNS AWAY? I couldn't believe it.

 

A minority opinion I guess, but I think Stannis might still be alive. His statement to Brienne..."do your duty" may have resonated with her and saved his life. Just my impression. I think if he were well and truly dead, they would not have cut away as Brie drew her sword. And somebody needs to be there to rescue the escapees Theon and Sansa...Brie and Pod are not enough. Stephen Dilllane has been amazing all season, tonight as well.

I agree on this, so hope we continue to see Stannis still next season. Brienne isn't a leader -- she needs someone to serve/ follow. Stannis's survival could be pretty amazing here. 

 

I didn't know I'd ever cheer for Theon. But I did, oh yeah ! In an episode full of stellar performances, A.Allen was just shining. The moment when Theon and Sansa held hands before jumping was simply beautiful.

And yeah, Sansa opened a door with a corkscrew -who says it's the first time she tried to use it to open her door? She had it for weeks, probably (still the vague timeline). That's great, and I'm not ironic. Again, she doesn't have the resources of a Brienne, an Arya, and Olenna...and it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter what she did, what matters is that she did it. Sansa in KL would never have dared...actually, she never did. But here she was alone, with no one to rely on, in the most horrible situation she ever was and she took a chance, she was instrumental in her own escape if it succeeds so yes, as far as I'm concerned, it's empowerment. She's just a very young woman, who was blessed/cursed with extraordinary beauty, but is ordinary about everything else and only recently learned to use her brain. But now she's doing her best and for me, it's more than enough.

Theon's redemption arc has taken place over 3 years and in countless minutes. Yet he's strong enough to show real progress and a quiet empathy (Alfie Allen is one of the best actors on this show to me).

 

I hate seeing Arya so brutal, although MW was great.

 

This. Every time Arya brutally kills someone, so many viewers yell, "Yay!" and I'm so torn, because... I'm watching a little girl become an unrepentant murderer. There is NO coming back from who Arya has become, faceless or not. Even if she survives, I don't think she will live a normal life or rejoin Westeros or what little family remains.

 

I'm disappointed that Thorne was in on the FTW knifing.  I really liked the shading they'd given him as the season went along -- he went from a dick who hated Jon simply for being a bastard and a member of the nobility to seemingly developing a grudging respect for him.  In that scene where Jon named him First Ranger instead of Head Latrine Digger the actor's expressions were brilliantly complex; I loved it.  Then he threw Slynt under the bus.  Then he let Jon back through the gate with the Wildlings.  Then he told him he had a big heart -- even though he thought it would bring disaster upon them.  I thought it would have been much more interesting to have him NOT be part of the mutiny, and in fact punish the mutineers, out of respect for protocol and the chain of command if nothing else.  But nope.  After all that interesting character development, he's just a dick in the end.  Boo.

 

I have to agree with you here -- I really loved the way they'd added so much nuance and complexity to Thorne this season. I really liked his growing appreciation for Jon's leadership skills even when they were enemies, so I would have preferred he wasn't the leading, er, stabber. Dammit.

 

I think most people will be back for the finale. But if it's confirmed (or "confirmed") that Jon is dead, that might cause a decent amount of viewers to pull away.

I think people will be back in droves for the S6 premiere. After that, and we see how many deaths from this episode stick, all bets are off.

 

I agree that Dorne was a total waste. But even when Myrcella started bleeding, I was frustrated because the ship was, like, 10 minutes from the dock. All they had to do was come back and go straight to Doran. (Besides, when we saw Bronn poisoned, he'd been in jail for hours and was still singing before it took effect.

But again: It's just so badly written anyway. Ellaria had no reason to want "vengeance for Oberyn" (he died in a freaking fair fight, which rarely happens in this world, adding to the irony -- and he would have absolutely hated what she did -- we already know that. "We do not hurt little girls in Dorne."

 

As far as Brienne, I was really exasperated by her here. She abandons the one clear duty she does have -- helping Sansa -- to avenge a guy who may have been kind to her once but who nevertheless simply had no real claim to the throne at all. Even her recitation of Renly as the true king is hilarious here because... not so much. Not hardly. And her action of revenge cannot change Renly's outcome -- he'll stay dead -- but her abandoning her watch meant Sansa missed the help she needed so desperately. It's frustrating. The light going up in the window just as Brienne turned away was just one more fuck-you from the show to anyone who thinks anything can ever possibly work out right in this nihilstic freaking universe.

 

However, I loved Tyrion's admission to Varys that he missed him. Such a rare moment of real affection and actual comradeship -- this show rarely allows that.

 

I loved the quiet scene of Dany with Drogon. Although, I admit, when reading ADWD, when I got to the part where Dany was once again marooned except for a bunch of Dothraki in the middle of nowhere, I actually said, "Oh, for fuck's sake," out loud. The delaying tactics on why Dany doesn't simply head for Westeros have gotten positively comical. At least tonight, we saw that Jorah and Daario are coming to find her. Maybe. Or she flies back to Meereen? I'm not a huge fan of the Dothraki, so we'll see how it all goes next season.

 

Thanks for all the discussion over the season! The night is dark and full of terrors, but you are all awesome.

Edited June 15, 2015 by paramitch

[ulkis]

That's true. But I'm thinking not just of the expectation that the hero will prevail, but that a prophesied chosen hero will prevail. By the number of people who can't accept he might just be dead (like any other character who got stabbed a half-dozen times with no one around to aid them would be), subverting the trope in this case is not letting this one character be conferred "specialness" because of prophecy. He lives or dies by his own actions and their repercussions in an unforgiving world.

And yes, it's a nihilistic view of the world, and not very fantasy-ish, but I wouldn't put it past GRR.

I can accept it. I just don't think it's likely. As some people have said, GRRM does not actually subvert that many tropes.

I just don't think we would have gotten a whole prologue on warging if it didn't mean something for Jon, but maybe it doesn't. It's not like GRRM doesn't pointlessly blather about other stuff for pages on end.

Edited June 15, 2015 by ulkis

[SeanC]

Sansa in KL would never have dared...actually, she never did. But here she was alone, with no one to rely on, in the most horrible situation she ever was and she took a chance, she was instrumental in her own escape if it succeeds so yes, as far as I'm concerned, it's empowerment.

In fact, Sansa in KL did precisely that...in the books, where the show didn't gut her plot.  She daringly went to the Godswood in the middle of the night, sneaking through the Red Keep, to answer a message and see about the possibility of escape even though she knew it could easily be a trap.

 

So I guess Sansa in the show has caught up to where she would have been if the writers had faithfully adapted season 2.  At this rate she might catch up with Book 4 Sansa by the seventh season!

Don't  you know?  She should be cooking up machiavelli plans that would make Varys and LF bow their heads and say "My Queen."    She get's crap for being passive, I call it careful.   Ned took actions, So did Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey, Tywin, Lyssa, John Arryn, Jon Snow, Stannis, I'd say she's doing better than any of the mentioned IMO.   The Best Revenge can be to outlive everyone IMO.

Sansa is supposed to be learning to play the game of thrones.  That's her skill set, the thing we were told rather explicitly that she would be doing in season 4, especially.  That did not happen at all.  Indeed, she regressed basically back to square one at the start of this season, and never accomplished anything.

[sacrebleu]

I was anticipating the Jon Snow stabbing. But in the book, it ended with him feeling the fifth knife go in, or words to that effect. This seemed like Jon Snow was feeling nothing, no how.

 

I'm also really bummed we didn't see Lady Stoneheart make an appearance. I was really expecting that to be the big shocker of a season ender. 

[CrashTextDummie]

Welcome to the neo unsullied thread, previously the book talk thread! Isn't it wild that there are cliffhangers and we don't know what's going to happen?

 

I still feel overall that the show has markedly improved on the written text, but this season finale felt rushed in many places and only a couple of storylines felt like they ended on the right note, namely:

 

Arya - Equal parts cathartic, horrifying and WTF. Hers had been one of the slower storylines, but I felt it built up well to this point and it's an interesting twist to leave her hanging on.

 

Tyron - I kind of admire the show for how elegantly they've moved him into the thick of the Mereneese mess, excising all the unpleasant drag the books put him through. Him as the (interim) ruler of Mereene? Why yes, I want to see that!

 

Cersei - Really powerful scene and great acting by LH, body double or not. This one was probably the hardest to screw up, but I still give them credit for a job well done.

 

Sam - He's now where he's supposed to be and I'm glad they came up with a compelling reason for him to leave despite how much they changed the plot. Probably not the most relevant in the grand scheme of things, but I enjoyed his arch this season.

 

On to the bad:

 

The northern mess - I guess they didn't have the budget for yet another epic battle, but the end of Stannis' army was REALLY screwed up and out of sync. Stannis surrounded by Bolton men, cut to Stannis alone in the woods, cut to Ramsay alone in a sea of dead bodies. It felt completely inconsistent and borderline nonsensical. Stannis' scene with Brienne bothered me greatly because I thought it was a disservice to both characters: Brienne took him out of his misery more than anything else and of course it was a completely undignified end to Stannis' character (assuming he's actually dead). Then there's Sansa and Theon, who seemed to spring into action for no other reason than it was the season finale. They truly spent too much time wallowing in Winterfell misery, because I didn't see enough of a progression for Theon to finally betray his master. And Sansa apparently had to develop lockpicking skills before she could make a run for it? Didn't resonate with me at all.

 

Dorne - Just a complete abortion of a storyline. It was moving at a glacial pace in the books, introducing a seemingly pointless amount of characters, but at least it seems to be going somewhere. Here it's all that except for the last part. It's a series of scenes of people acting stupid and out  of character. I miss the Riverlands. What a waste of NCW's talent.

 

Jon Snow - He was most defintely the MVP of the season, but they ran out of time to really sell us on the Night Watch's betrayal. The scene should have been poignant and tragic, but it just fell flat. I don't dare speculate on what the future brings for him, but this is a sad note to leave the character on. This was probably my favorite chapter in the books, and they kind of blew it. Bummer.

 

As a final note, I'm unhappy about the complete absence of the iron borne this season. Not that I particularly liked their stuff in the books, but I was at least hoping for Yara to play into the battle for Winterfell. That place feels like such a compelling culmination of storylines in the book and now with Stannis dispensed with in a matter of 5 minutes, it's much less so.

[nachomama]

I know half of Stannis' army deserted, I know Ramsay slaughtered many with his band of 20 ninjas, but who exactly slew all the rest? I swear I didn't blink and miss a huge battle scene, did I? I saw 2 guys chasing Stannis then Brienne, then back to Ramsay and 1 other guy...they pull back and hundreds of dead Stannistans. What did I miss? 

[franopy]

I agree that Dorne was a total waste. But even when Myrcella started bleeding, I was frustrated because the ship was, like, 10 minutes from the dock. All they had to do was come back and go straight to Doran. (Besides, when we saw Bronn poisoned, he'd been in jail for hours and was still singing before it took effect.

But again: It's just so badly written anyway. Ellaria had no reason to want "vengeance for Oberyn" (he died in a freaking fair fight, which rarely happens in this world, adding to the irony -- and he would have absolutely hated what she did -- we already know that. "We do not hurt little girls in Dorne."

 

 

 

 

You know, I was actually fine with Myrcella dying of poisoning since I assumed that happened while they were actually a good distance from Dorne, not in viewing distance from the fricking harbour as was revealed a couple of scenes later. If Jamie does not have that ship turned around and arrives back in Dorne screaming for the antidote and/or vengeance, they have made him truly useless. I doubt that Bronn has some antidote left from his encounter with the Sand Snake that was such an empowered female that she needed a random guy to repeatedly tell her she's the most beautiful woman in the world.

 

And was Ellaria playing her Dorne version of the game of thrones with that stunt? I'm not sure about the Dornish acsencion order and I'm definitely not going to look it up in the books, but does the almost guaranteed death of Trystane (spelling?) advance any of her daughters in line to the throne? Or is she simply a woman who has lost all her rational faculties after the death of "her man"? This is all so very disappointing.

[InsertWordHere]

I know half of Stannis' army deserted, I know Ramsay slaughtered many with his band of 20 ninjas, but who exactly slew all the rest? I swear I didn't blink and miss a huge battle scene, did I? I saw 2 guys chasing Stannis then Brienne, then back to Ramsay and 1 other guy...they pull back and hundreds of dead Stannistans. What did I miss? 

As Stannis and his soldiers were marching on foot to besiege the castle, Winterfell's gates opened and a large cavalry came out and charged the foot soldiers. 

[MrWhyt]

I completely agree with this. We already have set reports of one of the producers frequently asking for multiple takes of brothel scenes "for the pervs in the audience," so I keep trying to figure out which of W&B it is. I

There are 15 people credited as some kind of producer on that episode, what evidence do you have that it was either Benioff or Weiss?

 

I know half of Stannis' army deserted, I know Ramsay slaughtered many with his band of 20 ninjas, but who exactly slew all the rest? I swear I didn't blink and miss a huge battle scene, did I? I saw 2 guys chasing Stannis then Brienne, then back to Ramsay and 1 other guy...they pull back and hundreds of dead Stannistans. What did I miss? 

The Boltons' army. They didn't show the battle but we saw that Stannis, who had lost half his men, all his horses, his supplies, his seige engines and had just arrived at Winterfell after marching there, was outnumbered by the Boltons. His defeat was not exactly a surprise.

Edited June 15, 2015 by MrWhyt

[Arnella]

I know that Jamie telling Miracella about her parentage was just to create a sweet father/daughter moment to make her death just that much more tragic because otherwise it was a really stupid move that could put Miracella in danger.  Jamie doesn't know about the crazy Sparrows yet but killing bastard products of incest is still a real danger in Westeros.  Miracella needed that plausible deniability!  What if she mentioned it to her fiancée in a weak moment and a servant overheard - things could have gone very badly for her and everyone.

 

Good on Theon for finding his virtual balls and I have absolutely no doubt that they landed in water or a big snow bank so that isn't a cliffhanger for me.

 

Finally, Brienne had something to do!

 

Good riddance Stannis, Myranda, AND Jon.  I hope we spend a lot less time in Castle Black but now that Melisandre is there -  UGH!

 

As for Melisandre, I guess cold readings, smoke babies, and bold gestures only get you so far.  She was stupid enough to think the men would be cool with burning a child but smart enough to know when to bail.  Hate her; don't want to see her anymore.  I especially don't want to see her bring Jon back from the dead.

[MV713]

Im not a book reader but dont mind being spoiled, especially on this day of depression.  I loved Jon Snow and he was one of the reasons I watched the show.

 

I just wonder if he is "dead-dead" but on the show "dead-dead" can be resurrected, is it possible they might toss his body North of the Wall and he becomes a white walker? 

 

Sorry if that sounds dumb.  I'm sad today.

[Dev F]

There are 15 people credited as some kind of producer on that episode, what evidence do you have that it was either Benioff or Weiss?

 

Yeah, I seriously doubt that either of these two guys with literature degrees and MFAs in creative writing would've said, "Everybody else is the serious drama side. I represent the perv side of the audience."

[jeansheridan]

It was a downbeat ending to a quieter season but I will treasure certain beauty shots. Cersei being carried like a girl by her monster. Dany surrounded by her original people. Dillane' s pained face looking at his wife. I loved the humor of seeing Dany try to get Drogon to fly. Emilia Clarke might be good at physical comedy actually. And Jon Snow dying on the snow...a quieter death than he might have expected. It wasn't a rousing finale but I am curious for next season.

[Avaleigh]

I think Theon decided to help Sansa in that moment because it sounded to me like Myranda was talking about how Sansa would essentially be turned into a female version of Reek over time. Maybe she'd smell better but when Myranda started talking about taking away "parts" and saying how Ramsay doesn't need all of Sansa, to me it looked like something in his face changed and he didn't think that Sansa deserved to go through an experience that would be similar to his nightmare. That's how it seemed to me. 

 

I feel bad that so many Unsullied seem to think that Theon and Sansa chose to commit suicide together. I can see how that would feel like a bit of a blow. 

[Attaboy000]

Im not a book reader but dont mind being spoiled, especially on this day of depression.  I loved Jon Snow and he was one of the reasons I watched the show.

 

I just wonder if he is "dead-dead" but on the show "dead-dead" can be resurrected, is it possible they might toss his body North of the Wall and he becomes a white walker? 

 

Sorry if that sounds dumb.  I'm sad today.

 

Anything is possible lol...but this is the point where you will not get an answer from Book Readers because we've been waiting for roughly 5 years now for an answer as to what happens to Jon, but to be honest, I think a majority of us believes he's not dead.

 

I won't get into book reasons for why he is going to survive (unless you want to hear those too), but just going from what the show gave us:

 

Melisandra knows it's possible to resurrect people thanks to her encounter with Thoros of Myr and the Brotherhood Without Banners in Season 3. That was a deviation from the books.

 

Second: Look at Mel's face when she learns that Stannis's men have abandoned him is like "oh shiiiiit! I effed up"...I think in the show, that's when she realizes that Jon is the "Chosen One"...not Stannis.

 

So she conveniently comes back to Castle Black in the very same episode that Jon Snow is murdered. Coincidence? I think not.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Attaboy000

[thegreathoo]

ARYA - Excellent scenes, best of the night.  They took time with killing Meryn Trant, and it was brutal.  Arya went diligently wight on him, repeatedly stabbing him, gouging his eyes out, stuffing his mouth to silence his screams, and then slowly slit his throat, with gusto.   Do you know who I am? I am Arya Stark!  Do you know who you are?  You are no one, you are nothing!  The lines tie into the next set of scenes at the House of Black and White, with Jaqen and the woman there.

 

Jaqen tells her that Meryn's life was not hers to take and she stole a life from the many-faced god.  That debt can only be repaid with another death.  "Jaqen" drinks poison and drops dead.  Arya cries and screams over his body (a great scene): No! You can't die! Don't die!  As Arya cries, the woman asks her: Why are you crying?  Arya says, he was my friend! No he wasn't, says the woman, didn't you listen to him?

Then, a voice behind her says, he was no one!  Arya turns around and sees Jaqen standing there.   She sighs, stutters: But if you are . . . Who is this?!?
No one at all, Jaqen says, JUST AS THE GIRL HAD BEEN BEFORE SHE TOOK A FACE FROM THE HOLE.
Arya peels off a face from the dead man and she keeps peeling one after another, Jaquens says  FACES ARE FOR NO ONE, YOU ARE STILL SOMEONE, AND TO SOMEONE, FACES ARE AS GOOD AS POISON!
Arya peels of another face on the dead body only to reveal her own.  Staring now at herself, in agony, she screams I can't see!  Her vision is blurred, eyes roll white,  She screams, What's hapenning!  She goes blind.

 

Great set of scenes!

 

Foreshadowing: Melissandre tells Arya, I see darkness in you, I see eyes brown, blue, green, eyes you have taken.

Edited June 16, 2015 by thegreathoo

[Philbert]

 

Oh ya, I think Kit Harrington is full of shit.  Too much R+L=J foreshadowing and getting actors to lie to the press is too easy.

 

Maybe not. Kit Harrington doesn't have to come back to the show in order for Jon to live. 

[Paws]

But again: It's just so badly written anyway. Ellaria had no reason to want "vengeance for Oberyn" (he died in a freaking fair fight, which rarely happens in this world, adding to the irony -- and he would have absolutely hated what she did -- we already know that. "We do not hurt little girls in Dorne."

Not vengeance for his death, but to help him achieve his goal of more dead Lannisters. But yes, she should not have hurt a little girl in Dorne. sigh. I really miss Oberyn.

[franopy]

Maybe not. Kit Harrington doesn't have to come back to the show in order for Jon to live. 

 

True, but personally, I would somehow feel cheated if a different Jon Snow got to see things through until the end - the original has been suffering so much abuse and belittlement that he's earned a shot at being a hero and being recognised as one for a change. Secondly, assuming Jon Snow would come back in a different body. Would that have to be a dead body or would he be "possessing" someone else's? That would feel all kinds of wrong. Then again, maybe they could find a credible way to put him into Karsi's body. I could live with that. Birgitte Hjort Sørensen enhances every scene she's in and if in the end she and Dany were to ride off into the sunset on a dragon, that would be a truly original take on a fantasy epic, I think. (I'm not big on slash fiction, I was just trying to think of how a new Jon could be acceptable to me and I know that this scenario doesn't make little if any sense).

[Pete Martell]

Don't  you know?  She should be cooking up machiavelli plans that would make Varys and LF bow their heads and say "My Queen."    She get's crap for being passive, I call it careful.   Ned took actions, So did Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey, Tywin, Lyssa, John Arryn, Jon Snow, Stannis, I'd say she's doing better than any of the mentioned IMO.   The Best Revenge can be to outlive everyone IMO.

 

I'm not sure how many people are critical of her for being "passive" as much as they are critical of a story that was hyped by one of the writers based on the strength or growth we were supposed to see in Sansa, only to basically see her beg for death and then jump off a roof. 

 

If she'd been passive and meek after being beaten and raped on a daily basis, I certainly wouldn't criticize her. The problem for me is the show didn't write that story. Instead they had her do "strong" things like call Ramsay a bastard, which amounts to posturing, nothing more. To me this just made her look like she had a death wish, and in a world where Ramsay was not written as the remarkably self-assured, super fine, super calm and collected stud and warrior of Westeros (who takes a little time out of his schedule for sexual and physical abuse), she would have been flayed and displayed, not the Septa Mordane wannabe.

 

They had already done a story where Sansa learned to keep her feelings inside and bide her time. They claimed they were not doing that this season. The fact that people think they are just tells me again that this story got very lost along the way, and did her (and frankly, no one else, except for that woman who plays Myranda, who got 3 years employment from one of the most pointless roles ever on television) no favors.

[jcin617]

Aside from the plot point of Mel returning to Castle Black hinting that Jon's story is not done, there has to be someone to anchor the story to the events at the Wall.    My hunch is that is where Sansa and Theon will be heading, since Sansa now knows Jon is/was Lord Commander, but you still need someone to fulfill the storyline of the Watch.   And I doubt it will be Thorne or Ser Davos.

Edited June 15, 2015 by jcin617

[Avaleigh]

Maybe not. Kit Harrington doesn't have to come back to the show in order for Jon to live. 

Even if this is something that happens in the books where Jon ends up in a different body, I feel like the show would choose not to do this and the reasons would be similar to why Jaqen ended up in the role of the Kindly Man. 

 

As for the people who are unhappy with Cersei's body double--to me the point is it doesn't matter what body type you have when you're in a situation like that. Even if a person has a beautiful body and face a person is still going to feel filthy, degraded, ugly, and disgusting under those circumstances. 

 

In a way I feel like what Cersei went through was a kind of hellish version of a birth and baptism. It's like she was born again only instead of feeling clean and light she's soiled and weighed down. She's naked and covered in muck; her hair is short, she's crying and she's wrapped in a blanket and carried away in somebody's arms. Looking at her with the short hair and that expression on her face I couldn't help but think of Joffrey and am wondering what sort of monster the High Sparrow has just helped create. Add in her finding out about the murder of her only daughter and it isn't going to be pretty. 

[proserpina65]

Or the slut shaming of Cersei. Though obviously the showrunners and some of the audience got off on that going by the length of the scene, the nudity, and some of the reactions to it I have seen on the net.

 

Some of us certainly DID NOT get off on it, but had no sympathy whatsoever for Cersei.  She deserved every second of it.  Plus, she only confessed to adultery & incest, so that's what she was punished for.  Her fault, no one else's.

[Portia4844]

The writers seem more interested in being clever and fucking with the viewer than telling the story of Fire and Ice in the most creative way.  I love the magical abilities that GRRM gave to the certain characters that were worth rooting for but after 5 seasons, there has been little of that especially when it comes to warging.  

 

It made no frigging sense that Jon is treated like he's just bringing the Wildings over out of the goodness of his heart rather than the actual reason.....they can be turned into an army that could destroy everyone in their path.   They have Jon mention it to Sam but doesn't bother having a conversation with the rest of the NW.  The whole thing seemed odd even in the book but these writers managed to make it seem even more pointless.  GRRM at least some hope for Jon while these writers didn't bother with that unless Mel magically appearing was supposed to do that.  All it did is seem stupid that she got there so fast.  

 

Dorne was a total waste of time.  Arya was completely insane in the brutal way she killed Trant.  And Sansa and Theon would rather jump than face anymore of Ramsey.  Ramsey is victorious with hundreds of soldiers that apparently came out of his ass.  Brienne waits and waits until the moment just before Sansa puts the candle in the window.    What a cluster fuck that was.  

[benteen]

I agree the way Arya went about her revenge was nothing to cheer about.  Not that I feel any sympathy for Trant but Arya was reveling in her revenge.  That's not healthy at all.

 

If they really want to screw with the fans, they can start the season off with Sansa being dead, having hit her head on the castle walls.  Theon can dust himself off as Super Ramsay comes up to him and said his plan to get rid of Sansa and Myranda worked.  The two of them can go laughing off into the sunset...

Edited June 15, 2015 by benteen

[Zalyn]

Interesting episode, great thread!  (Lots of great quips in here, though "Septa Ratchet" may be my favorite)

 

One thing I noticed that pinged my Bookwalker radar was the throne room scene with Tyrion, Jorah, and Daario. When I saw how they were positioned when Tyrion questioned their fitness to be consorts to Daenerys, I was reminded of "The Dragon has Three Heads" and the speculation on who the three dragon rider-consorts will be.  Seems like visually it could have been a tease about it (whether it comes to pass, no clue).

 

I was pleasantly surprised by the filming work done for Cersei's Walk of Shame; I had been dreading how badly it could have gone with the slobbering anticipation by some fans to see Lena Headey naked (good job on the body double, and entirely understandable - funny how medieval our society is regarding woman actors and their bodies still...).  It's not perfect by any means, but I felt that they made an effort to carry emotional weight and focus on Cersei's state of mind and her journey, making it something that services her character development (rather than just titillating viewers). There are so many times on this show (and others) where bad things are done to women but the viewer gets no access to what they are thinking and feeling (see: Sansa and Ramsay), resulting in them being merely objectified in service of other ends. Here, by focusing so much on Lena's face, you get to see what she is going through, and I could almost hear her internal monologue; her bleeding feet afterwards was good too to show how much determination it took to get through that. 

 

I don't remember from the book whether Sparrows were as adamant about protecting her by knocking back rabble (I admit that I raced through that overly long section to get it over with), but I liked that touch because it kept the Walk ritualized within the religion of the Seven rather than just a free-for-all to abuse Cersei.  It was still really hard to watch, but it should be uncomfortable if it gives us good insight into the religion, the people, and Cersei's journey (done better here than in the book, imo).  I also got the feeling that Cersei may not be as done as I thought after reading the book; as problematic a character as she is, I wouldn't mind seeing a transformation in her towards some greater strength (probably just before she bites it, knowing these guys).

 

re: Brienne and Stannis: I see it as plausible reasoning that Brienne can choose to spare Stannis' life and use him to fulfill her oath to protect Sansa; there often is a clause that if you legally could have killed someone, you can compel them to your service instead.  As far as I'm concerned, you ain't dead on this show until your head rolls off or your throat is slit, so I'm headcanoning that she redirected her swing into the tree by his head for now.

[InsertWordHere]

She deserved every second of it.  Plus, she only confessed to adultery & incest, so that's what she was punished for.  Her fault, no one else's.

Adultery and fornication. Sleeping with a cousin is not considered incest in the show or the books. The incest charge was for Jaime and she denied it and will face trial for it. I agree with the poster you quoted, it was slut shaming, whether she deserved it or not. There was in fact a woman walking behind her saying "SHAME" as she was punished for sleeping with someone outside of marriage. In other words she was being shamed for being a "slut," not for her real crimes. Not that I'm judging anyone for being unsympathetic or anything, I just think we should call it what it was.

[SFoster21]

Even if this is something that happens in the books where Jon ends up in a different body, I feel like the show would choose not to do this and the reasons would be similar to why Jaqen ended up in the role of the Kindly Man.

As for the people who are unhappy with Cersei's body double--to me the point is it doesn't matter what body type you have when you're in a situation like that. Even if a person has a beautiful body and face a person is still going to feel filthy, degraded, ugly, and disgusting under those circumstances.

In a way I feel like what Cersei went through was a kind of hellish version of a birth and baptism. It's like she was born again only instead of feeling clean and light she's soiled and weighed down. She's naked and covered in muck; her hair is short, she's crying and she's wrapped in a blanket and carried away in somebody's arms. Looking at her with the short hair and that expression on her face I couldn't help but think of Joffrey and am wondering what sort of monster the High Sparrow has just helped create. Add in her finding out about the murder of her only daughter and it isn't going to be pretty.

I thought the body double was a good choice; the stomach may have been flat, but the breasts were those of an older woman who has given birth. The manicured crotch hair was kinda modern, though.

[proserpina65]

 Seasons/books 1-3 didn't have nearly as many plots, locations or characters as AFFC or ADWD (which were combined into one season giving even less time). GRRM keeps adding more and more characters and locations (something i hate that he is doing in the books) so the show keeps having to combine stories and cut characters

Too bad the showrunners screwed it up so badly, rather than working Feast & Dance (plus aspects of Winds) over two seasons.  Cramming it into one season didn't work.

[InsertWordHere]

I thought the body double was a good choice; the stomach may have been flat, but the breasts were those of an older woman who has given birth. The manicured crotch hair was kinda modern, though.

I believe that was sheered along with her head. She had more in the indoor scene. 

[Philbert]

 

Secondly, assuming Jon Snow would come back in a different body. Would that have to be a dead body or would he be "possessing" someone else's?

 

As somebody has already pointed out here, "A Dance With Dragons" makes it clear that you can permanently take possession of somebody else's body (effectively killing them) and the show has gone out of it's way to showcase Bran temporarily 'possessing' Hodor. You do need to be a Warg however. Then again, they might have been hinting all this time that the Starks are by nature wargs...I really don't know. I'm not sure where Martin is taking this-or the showrunners either. I find it convenient that Melisandre showed back up at Castle Black right as Jon gets killed so they have the option of resurrecting him (in which case you need Harrington) or popping him into another body (in which case, you don't.) Either way, I feel confident that Jon is not really dead, either in the books or the show. Whether Harrington will be involved in the show in future seasons, that's up to Martin, Benioff and Weiss.

[Avaleigh]

I think Melisandre is alive. She knew instantly that she'd have to flee if she didn't want to be killed along with Stannis and his men. 

 

I'm still curious as to where Mel thinks she's going at the Wall. It isn't a hotel. How can she just show up there and not speak to Jon and just put her feet up in a room as if she's still in a situation where her king who helped saved the watch is currently in residence? Who does she think she is? 

 

Meanwhile Davos is going to be on ice until somebody decides to give him a mission to go and retrieve Rickon? Obviously the request is going to come from Sansa but how long is it going to take for these characters to cross paths? 

 

Meanwhile Theon and Sansa have NO supplies whatsoever and aren't really properly dressed for this terrible weather. 

 

I feel like the showrunners have so much work cut out for themselves next season how can they possibly address everything?

Adultery and fornication. Sleeping with a cousin is not considered incest in the show or the books. The incest charge was for Jaime and she denied it and will face trial for it. I agree with the poster you quoted, it was slut shaming, whether she deserved it or not. There was in fact a woman walking behind her saying "SHAME" as she was punished for sleeping with someone outside of marriage. In other words she was being shamed for being a "slut," not for her real crimes. Not that I'm judging anyone for being unsympathetic or anything, I just think we should call it what it was.

The smallfolk aren't shouting at Cersei for any abuse that they feel they or anyone else has taken at her hands. The comments were all about her sexuality and her body. That's what made it tough for me to enjoy her punishment. Plus, I don't ultimately believe that doing this is going to be helpful to anyone in the long run. 

[Philbert]

 

As a final note, I'm unhappy about the complete absence of the iron borne this season. Not that I particularly liked their stuff in the books, but I was at least hoping for Yara to play into the battle for Winterfell. That place feels like such a compelling culmination of storylines in the book and now with Stannis dispensed with in a matter of 5 minutes, it's much less so.

 

My understanding is that season six will include the Ironborn, particularly Theon's uncles.