S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[Oscirus]

Hey Harpies! Throw a spear at Dany! Remember Dany? She's the reason you're there in the first place! Throw...throw a spear at Dany! No? You just want to wave your daggers in the air menacingly? Okay.

 

If they were so obsessed with getting to the queen one of them could have pretended to be a fighter and flung a spear at her in the middle of the fight. It's not like there was anybody around to protect her.

[Pete Martell]

I was referring to her fulfilling her vow of revenge against Stannis, not her swooping in to save the day, although I think the latter is more likely to happen. 

 

Thanks. Sorry for misreading.

 

The problem for me is I just don't really care about her vow against Stannis for Renly's death. It was so long ago and while she's brought it up periodically, it just feels like they came up with again this season so she could have a basic plot after her story ended in episode 2. We barely saw her with Renly, and one speech about how nice he was to her doesn't make me care about whether or not she avenges him. I'd rather see a Brienne who actually has a purpose or more than a half a dimension.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Pete Martell

[KevinPowers]

Drogon vs Toothless Daenerys Targaryen vs Hiccup

[AbFabGab]

That was rough. Poor Shireen. Melisandre was ice cold through it all. 

Not ice cold, that witch had the nerve to have a smile on her face as she watched her burn. She's a full on religious psycho. As cold as she already is, I don't even know if I'd be satisfied seeing the White Walkers get her, considering I don't want to see her come back in any form. 

[enlightenedbum]

Drogon did get pierced in the book, I'm pretty sure.  And he BLED LAVA, because he is hardcore like that.

Edited June 8, 2015 by enlightenedbum

[GreyBunny]

That scene between Stannis and Davos when he burned his brother in law told me all I need to know that Stannis doesn't believe in any religion or god.  He believes he deserves what one brother was too dim to keep and what the other brother wrongly tried to take from him.  He's totally Cain between Cain, Abel, and Seth.

Hey Stannis, from one atheist to another...whenever someone claiming to be a god or a representative of a god asks you to kill your child, the correct answer is always NO.

Edited June 8, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Oscirus]

I will give this show credit for introducing the sandsnakes on a weekly basis:

One likes to monologue

One likes to show off her sexy body

One is really good at playing slap hands.

 

Those are characteristics I suppose

Edited June 8, 2015 by Oscirus

[vesperholly]

"Man, FUCK Stannis."

 

"Shireen was your heir, Stannis you idiot."

 

"I'd want the damn Lord Of Light incarnate to walk out the gates of Winterfell personally singing a pretty song and juggling Bolton heads for that ugly business."

 

"Seriously Roose is all I may have broken the rule of hospitality, and raised up a my sociopathic son, but I didn't murder my brother and burn a  child of my body alive, you depraved fuck."

 

"I hope the fire weaponized her grayscale so that the smoke with kill both Stannis' and Bolton's army."

 

"Ramsay and Flayed Team Six"

 

That was a horrific scene but the resultant bon mots sprung from your collective heads have been fabulous. Well done, P.TV.

[GreyBunny]

For the Battle of the Blackwater I wanted Stannis and Tyrion to both win because I wanted Tyrion and Bronn to have their big moments and for Davos to get a victory so his son's death could mean something.

 

Now, I just want Stannis and Ramsay to both lose. Crossover: I want Hannibal to show up and EAT THEM ALL.

[jeansheridan]

I think in the book Dany jumps on him to save him.  And she does leave everyone behind but she really has no control over the dragon.  She's holding on for dear life.  She just wants to get her dragon/child to safety. 

 

That last fight was more interesting in the small details:  Jorah and Daario nodding to each other on the dais, Tyrion noting the tension between Daario and the prince and Dany's obvious enjoyment of it,   Tyrion making the decision to belittle the royal fiance to please Dany.  And Tyrion of course saving Mirassandra (is that her name?) after she was totally ditched by everyone, proving that yes, small men with brains CAN win fights. 

 

I do like that Dany grabbed her hand before they thought they were going to die.  It does bum me out that Dany didn't even try to pick up a weapon to protect herself.  She just stood there, a sacrifice in white, waiting for the next thing to happen.  At least Shireen struggled. 

 

I can see why the show didn't want to end on Shireen.  Dany riding Drogan is both thrilling and important.  Might have been better to have saved it for the finale However I suspect Jon's stabbing will the real finale.  It will be The Walk, then Winterfell, Jon's stabbing, and we'll see Dany alone with her dragon.  End season.  Oh crap, they have to fit Arya in there too.   GAH.   Okay, I might be happy if they wait to do the walk next season, but I suspect it will be this season. 

 

Mace Tyrell cracks me up!  He's just one of the few characters who exists for pure humor.  I love that he seems totally oblivious that his daughter and son are imprisoned (ravens can't find ships I guess).  He's just so cheery and clueless.  I must admit this world seems to be a better place if such people can exist. 

 

Mel can die any time now.  The ends do NOT justify the means.  Is a world where little girls are sacrificed worth saving? 

 

And in a minor defense of the Dorne scenes, I think they serve to show that yes, there can be a different kind of leader and that Dany can potentially have the backing of such a leader.  Dany, the Tyrells, Dorne, they all represent a more gentle form of government.  They're hardly perfect, but they'd rather rule by charm and persuasion than force and cruelty if the circumstances allow it.  Margary was all about the charm offense when she arrived in King's Landing.  Feed the poor, do public appearances, etc.  Doran clearly believes in mercy, up to a point. And his son shares his perspective.  Bronn getting punched was completely fair. 

And I think Dany wants to be that kind of leader. 

 

And of course there's Jon and his good heart in the North.  The tide might be turning against all the despots.  I'm an optimist!

Edited June 8, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Brn2bwild]

"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

 

From a released later chapter that I was reminded of. Ramsey being able to wreck all of Stannis' siege weapons and their supplies is completely ridiculous. 

 

I also just don't get going the North on the Wall way when the South way is open to you. And it is, if you land at Eastwatch. That's the end of the Wall. I was just relieved when they opened the gates, so that wouldn't be a whole thing again. 

 

Especially since, at that point in the book, Stannis was still days from Winterfell.  More likely Ramsay would have been lost in the blizzard and frozen to death. 

[jeansheridan]

For the Battle of the Blackwater I wanted Stannis and Tyrion to both win because I wanted Tyrion and Bronn to have their big moments and for Davos to get a victory so his son's death could mean something.

 

Now, I just want Stannis and Ramsay to both lose. Crossover: I want Hannibal to show up and EAT THEM ALL.

And I know Mads can rock the Westeros leather! 

[henripootel]

Hey Harpies! Throw a spear at Dany! Remember Dany? She's the reason you're there in the first place! Throw...throw a spear at Dany! No? You just want to wave your daggers in the air menacingly? Okay.

I'm still trying to figure out what I can't believe less, that any 20 Sons of the Harpy could take on one Unsullied and live, that Dani would go anywhere so unprotected, or that the Sons, given that they had time to prepare and apparently weren't fucking searched before getting within bow-shot of Dani didn't fucking bring bows.  I liked Drogon showing up but I'm dismayed at how easy it is to hurt him.  He's still young, I guess, but I was expecting more rage and roasting.

Especially since, at that point in the book, Stannis was still days from Winterfell.  More likely Ramsay would have been lost in the blizzard and frozen to death.

Then there's this.  20 guys do all this and not one guard sees anything.  I'm speechless.

Edited June 8, 2015 by henripootel

[loki567]

I've come to the opinion that maybe there shouldn't have been a Dorne storyline, period. Even if they do end up supporting Dany, I don't know if we needed to waste time with it. If there's no Aegon and Arianne, I think they should have been brought into the storyline when Dany needed them. Maybe introduce a few Dornish characters in the other storlines first: Quentyn (or Arianne) with Dany, one of the Sand Snakes with Cersei, etc. They've neutered Doran and undercut any impact from the reveal about his motives, and we already have enough reason for why the Martells would want the Lannisters to be deposed. 

[calliope1975]

My first thought was "so that's all it takes - an underage actress on the scene and they finally have to veil the nips and cracks!" But then looked up MW and found she's 18. Either way, did we really lose anything by not seeing the naughty bits? Are people watching this show to wank by when there's actual porn, like, everywhere? It's kinda sad when I see the rating warnings at the start of an ep and let out a sigh of relief when nudity is not listed. "Yay! No obtrusive pubes to annoy me!" And it's wrong to find humor in the selling-a-child scene, but holy make-up department, Batman! Could they have made the young girl any more apple-cheeked? She looked like freakin' Raggedy Ann.

 

MW turned 18 in April; I'm pretty sure she was 17 when this season was filmed. I'm not even against boobs. I have them; I like them, but it was nice to get a break this week. If they have Arya go all, as I saw somewhere, Hard Candy, on that dude, I hope they keep his pedoness down a notch before she kills him. 

[lucindabelle]

Yes this is Iphigenia sacrificed to make the winds blow. Agamemnons wife never forgave him and Selye looked pretty devastated. Agamemnon was murdered when he returned home. That said the sacrifice did work.

I can't beleive he bonded with her talked about books with her all to justify killing her.

DROGON! Yay for DROGON! Nd yes he would have been killed had he stayed and he yelled at her that he was not going to leave. I was cheering for her when she climbed up on him to save him. I'm a bit worried about the other two Dragons but seeing her ride away was like something in a fairy tale.

What was taboo about the relationship with Oberyn?

[Black Knight]

I think in the book Dany jumps on him to save him.  And she does leave everyone behind but she really has no control over the dragon.  She's holding on for dear life.  She just wants to get her dragon/child to safety. 

 

And in a minor defense of the Dorne scenes, I think they serve to show that yes, there can be a different kind of leader and that Dany can potentially have the backing of such a leader.  Dany, the Tyrells, Dorne, they all represent a more gentle form of government.  They're hardly perfect, but they'd rather rule by charm and persuasion than force and cruelty if the circumstances allow it.  Margary was all about the charm offense when she arrived in King's Landing.  Feed the poor, do public appearances, etc.  Doran clearly believes in mercy, up to a point. And his son shares his perspective.  Bronn getting punched was completely fair. 

 

And I think Dany wants to be that kind of leader.

Although it's a very different situation on the TV show than in the book, I think the TV show did demonstrate that Dany knew that if she didn't get Drogon out of there, he would die, and he wasn't going to leave his mother. But maybe in the next episode they'll show that although Dany can ride him, they aren't yet a well-oiled flying team where she can get him to do exactly what she wants.

 

I agree that Dany and the Martells are a good match. I thought it was interesting that the TV show had Tyrion leave them out of the familes he was listing off to Dany last week, when he did think that the Tyrells would potentially side with her, and he has to know that the Martells are even likelier given the history with Elia and Oberyn. I don't think Tyrion withheld that information purposely, I suspect the show is planning the same sort of reveal that Doran made to Ari in the book and so wants to help preserve the surprise by not having the possibility of a Targaryen-Martell alliance mentioned earlier.

[that one guy]

so...

 

I never liked Stannis. I'm just gonna come out and say it. He made me root for the Lannisters in "Blackwater," and now he makes me root for Ramsey Bolton. I hope the kinslaying s.o.b. gets his fingers, toes, tongue and dick removed and spends the rest of his life handing out towels in the Winterfell men's room for tips and sleeping with the hounds. Die Stannis die die die die die. 

 

I don't understand why John is north of the wall. Why didn't the ships land on the zombie-free side of the wall? I wouldn't be going up there anymore. Its death for everyone. Except Wun Wun, Wun Wun smash.

 

I don't mind that the Sons of the Harpy's tactics suck. They aren't soldiers. The Drogon stuff was cool, but they skipped my favorite moment from the books. Sticking him with spears didn't seem to do much on the show either, but in the book the spear BURST INTO FLAME and was reduced to ash when he was speared, and smoke poured out of the wound, and then Drogon ate the spear thrower, and I was like "Damn, Drogon is the biggest badass ever.." He's pretty cool here, but was more impressive in my imagination.

 

Doran is right. Marrying your son to the King's sister is a big political win. Especially a young king with no heirs. Hoping Bronn and Baby Spice get together - I watched Ripper Street earlier and watching Jerome Flynn in the two shows on the same day is weird. Sgt. Drake and Bronn are very different characters, though they're both "the heavy."

 

I didn't know I could like Meryn Trant any less that I already did, but now there's a lower place.

[Katsa Kein]

Just like Dany's stint in Meereen, I feel like this whole season has been a bit of a bust. Well, except for last week's amazing episode and all the happenings at The Wall. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Dany's plot line in Meereen has not translated well on television. It was never really my favorite storyline in the books either, save for the fighting pit scene & everything following that, but every Sons of the Harpy battle scene this season has looked like a B movie & tonight was no exception. Her flying off on Drogon in slow-mo paired with that cheesy, uplifting score was just cringeworthy. It was good to see Ser Friendzone back where he belongs though & I'm enjoying Tyrion with camp Targaryen. The looks on their faces were priceless when Dany hopped on Drogon & peaced out. lol

Stannis can just go die. The show pulled the old bait & switch with him & Selyse, which actually kind of surprised me. And here I had thought that her mom was the danger, so color me shocked when she was the one who wanted to stop Shireen's burning at the last minute. My heart broke for the poor girl. It felt like the Red Wedding all over again. :-( I kind of like Stannis in the books & always enjoyed his moments with Jon Snow at The Wall, but I hope I get to see the Red Bitch (oops, I mean Witch) drop him like a hot potato if Jon turns out to be Azor Ahai like most of us assume. His reaction will be something to behold, I'm sure! lol

[DigitalCount]

So, after watching this episode, I am in full Tyra Banks "how dare you" mode. I couldn't believe it. I honestly could not believe it. Although, in the light of day I guess it could theoretically be what happens, after that story about the grayscale I got lulled into a false sense of security. Then Shireen repeated what he said to her and I was like screw. this.

 

Mel needs to ironically die in a fire. Stannis should also ironically die, I guess at Dany's hands because she believes it's her duty to rule and thus she has to burn him to a crisp with Drogon. I guess if we want to kill Dany ironically, she could have some random person wondering whether or not she's guilty of a crime and just arbitrarily decide "well, let's kill her anyway." Frigging heck that was hard to watch.

 

Hizdahr dies, of course. Guy was trying to bridge worlds together and he got killed for his troubles, and Dany gives no hoots because he was just a pawn anyway. Or, he had some packages of ketchup under his clothes and he's really the Harpy. Either way, Dany bounces to save her own skin because why not.

 

I'm wondering if the Pink Letter even occurs this season. Can they really push back glaring Olly to S6? Something will be missing if we don't get stab wounds by the end. But maybe they have a contrast of letters with Cersei and Sansa both trying to reach out to their brothers? I feel as if Sansa's going to be the one to write the letter on the show.

Edited June 8, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Happy Harpy]

I'm glad I watched the leaked preview because I could spend an hour or two in mental fetal position mourning my lovely, wise, adorable Shireen who was too good for that GoT world. 

And then, I could find this episode fucking awesome. I liked it even better than last week. 

 

Davos. So, so much love for Davos, Shireen's father in every way that counts as they say in the Soap Kingdom. His scene with Shireen simply broke my heart and it's been a long time since I've had misty eyes watching TV. He felt that something was wrong, he tried to take her away; and I could identify with him since I didn't believe that Stannis would actually cross the line of the Moral Event Horizon, especially after his blunt refusal, although the fear was looming, which I think that was exactly Davos' state of mind. If it was what the writers aimed at, kudos. 

 

I'll take solace in one of Melisandre's prophecies once more, hoping that she'll meet Arya again and immediately after get acquainted with Needle, although I'd prefer Nymeria's jaws to do the trick. Die, evil bitch, die.

 

Stannis had for me mostly "negative qualities", as Dame A.Christie said of an assassin in one of her books. As I said, I believed he loved his daughter as much as he could love someone, thanks to the prior Stannis/Shireen scene. It just happens that he loves his ego more, since for me that's the crux of the character. ITA on the "middle child" syndrom. Stannis talks about duty and destiny, and imo convinced himself that's what leads his actions. But oh, it coincides with him being on top, and the MEH crossed seals the deal for me. Oh and yeah, die, Stannis, die. 

I didn't think I'd believe that Selyse could have a change of heart, but actually it worked for me. In the light of this scene, imo she repressed her love for her daughter all her life (her own feeling of failure, being crazy etc.) and when push came to shove, it overwhelmed her. Retrospectively, I'm glad for the scene in the library because there was some ambiguous care for Shireen there, only this time, and that's what came to my mind when I saw Selyse's face crumbling.

 

I also blame Ramsay for it, because it's always Ramsay's fault somewhere and his burning the supplies hastened Shireen's murder. I now wonder whether Melisandre didn't know he would, and said nothing to have her way.

 

I don't have a problem with Meryn Trant being a pedophile. It always seemed to me that he got off beating teenage Sansa, plus character-merging. 

Loved M.Williams' expression with the "clamp" morons, I read it as "Why do I feel that I should be skewering those guys right now?". 

I'm going to be on pins and needles, since I don't know if she fooled Not Jaqen or if she didn't, and what exactly they're going to keep of her storyline.

 

Dorne still feels like exposition. I've been defending the storyline but it needs to accelerate. I hoped that Fire and Blood would be this season, honestly I want to be in TWoW territory already and Dorne needs to get to the point. Maybe it will be in, if there's a big showdown on the way back to KL in the finale, since I don't believe that Doran is such peace and love guy (maybe it was the point? Having people roll their eyes at him in front of their TV, just like his entourage roll their eyes at him in the books?). And I guess that the Dorne delegate in the Small Council might be significant, if they place Trystane there instead? 

 

Finally, the Pit scenes were nothing short of fabulous for me.

I loved how Tyrion and Daenerys found common grounds. "My father would have liked you", LOL.  Again excellent chemistry and imo, excellent acting.

Daario annoys me. I didn't feel that Hizdahr was "bullied". He had his POV exposed, and even had a point when "his" guy prevailed in the fight...not bad, when you think he's an advocate for slavery. I'm not sure I'd be as polite with someone sustaining the modern equivalent during a social gathering.

Jorah and Tyrion both kicked ass. Tyrion's jaw dropping at the dragon, excellent.

Jorah and Daenerys are reconciled, yeah! He's obsessed by her, but since it doesn't seem to end with an attempted rape (jinx!) I find it rather endearing for this show. And she loves him in her way. I also believed that you got greyscale through the scales, only. I honestly don't think that Jorah would touch Daenerys with a ten foot pole if it could possibly hurt her (but I've been wrong before, see Stannis/Shireen). 

Dany loves her Drogon more than Stannis loved Shireen, sigh. I really like that "mother of dragons" isn't a mere word and the way it's developped as a real relationship. It's so much more interesting. I didn't have the feeling that she was elated at Drogon barbecuing the Harpies (at his arrival, yes) more like "OMG WTF this is out out control", and then worried about her son. 

I'm glad they ended the show on that note, and not on yet another tragedy (Shireen *sobs*).

 

For me, this was 100% Game of Thrones: gut-wrenching of the worst kind mixed with epic of the best kind. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[that one guy]

Re-watching instead of sleeping. Hizdar wasn't with the Sons, I guess? He was just kind of an idiot, defending the system right up until the day it killed him.

 

If they're trying to drive out the foreign conquerer, massacring civilians doesn't seem to be the way to win their support.

You'd think, but I'd refer you to the evening news for a counterargument.

 

Reading the comments  it seems like a lot of people assume Jon is  Azor Azai? The only person to wake dragons from stone  is Danearys. Frankly I'll be pissed if it's someone else.

[MadMouse]

Although it's a very different situation on the TV show than in the book, I think the TV show did demonstrate that Dany knew that if she didn't get Drogon out of there, he would die, and he wasn't going to leave his mother. But maybe in the next episode they'll show that although Dany can ride him, they aren't yet a well-oiled flying team where she can get him to do exactly what she wants.

 

I agree that Dany and the Martells are a good match. I thought it was interesting that the TV show had Tyrion leave them out of the familes he was listing off to Dany last week, when he did think that the Tyrells would potentially side with her, and he has to know that the Martells are even likelier given the history with Elia and Oberyn. I don't think Tyrion withheld that information purposely, I suspect the show is planning the same sort of reveal that Doran made to Ari in the book and so wants to help preserve the surprise by not having the possibility of a Targaryen-Martell alliance mentioned earlier.

 

Why would he declare for Dany when his only heir is going to Kings Landing? Its a death sentence for Trystane if Dorne makes an alliance with Dany.

[InsertWordHere]

I'm wondering if the Pink Letter even occurs this season. Can they really push back glaring Olly to S6? Something will be missing if we don't get stab wounds by the end. But maybe they have a contrast of letters with Cersei and Sansa both trying to reach out to their brothers? I feel as if Sansa's going to be the one to write the letter on the show.

I think For the Watch will still happen, but it will be caused by Davos arriving with Stannis' orders for Jon to bring men to Winterfell. This would cause the stabbing to lose some of its impact for me, because while Jon would still be abandoning his duty, he wouldn't be doing it for his sister, and he would be doing it under the impression that he'll get more men for the Watch out of it. In the book, Jon really was forsaking his vows, regardless of what he told everyone about the threats Ramsay made about attacking the Wall in his letter. He was leaving for Arya, plain and simple.

 

Maybe it will be a little bit of both and he'll finally learn that Sansa is in Winterfell just as Davos gets there with his orders.

[J----av]

I think For the Watch will still happen, but it will be caused by Davos arriving with Stannis' orders for Jon to bring men to Winterfell. This would cause the stabbing to lose some of its impact for me, because while Jon would still be abandoning his duty, he wouldn't be doing it for his sister, and he would be doing it under the impression that he'll get more men for the Watch out of it. In the book, Jon really was forsaking his vows, regardless of what he told everyone about the threats Ramsay made about attacking the Wall in his letter. He was leaving for Arya, plain and simple.

 

Maybe it will be a little bit of both and he'll finally learn that Sansa is in Winterfell just as Davos gets there with his orders.

 

 Him leaving for Sansa wouldn't have the same impact as in the books when he left for Arya.

[snakenax]

 

Reading the comments  it seems like a lot of people assume Jon is  Azor Azai? The only person to wake dragons from stone  is Danearys. Frankly I'll be pissed if it's someone else.

It's.. complicated. In that there are multiple prophecies with similar requirements going on, with the Prince Who Was Promised which seems to involve a rekindling of Targaryen power and Azor Azai which is the one who defeats the Long Night(and the muddying that everyone who interprets the prophecies seems to have different ideas of exactly what they mean). And we have the whole 'the dragon must have three heads' prophecy which suggests three chosen ones. Though in Mel's chapter she has a bit where she tries looking into the flames to find Azor Azai and keeps finding Jon that is about as explicit a suggestion of who the prophecy refers to that we've ever gotten.

[Hecate7]

The thing is, Book Stannis wasn't really that much of a religious fanatic.  He threw in with Melisandre for political reasons, though I never understood why he decided to hook up with a Priestess who represented such a foreign religion in Westeros.  But the whole Red God thing was for political purposes, Stannis was never really a true believer.  Even when all three kings died in the books, he wasn't ready to believe in the Red God and legitimately struggled with the idea of burning Edric.  I think he would have burned Edric but at least he struggled with doing that.  In the show, Stannis is just a religious fanatic being who can't so much as wipe his ass without Melisandre telling him to do so.

 

Now, would Book Stannis burn Shireen if it brought him the throne?  It's a legitimate question to ask, especially since he doesn't seem as close to his daughter as he did on the show.  But just because that's a question doesn't mean we need it answered.  Especially when having Stannis doing it is just D&D creating controversy again just for the hell of it.

 

Whether he'll still be alive by then is one thing but I think the relationship with Davos is permanently destroyed now. 

 

Maybe he has an evil alien brain parasite?

[ElizaD]

Kerry Ingram is a wonderful actress. Every Shireen scene was a bit of joy in a miserable world.

 

The show loves shock and awe. Logic and character development? Let's abandon those for big twists. Shae turns on Tyrion and Sansa because the plot demands it. Sansa doesn't have a clue that she's going to escape KL. Now the religious fanatic Selyse is overpowered by her motherly feelings (of course!) while Stannis becomes yet another bad father because it's more shocking to have him kill his daughter than for it to be the work of Selyse and Melisandre.

 

It's disgusting that the show found a way to have Ramsay rape Sansa and then get the viewers talking about how they root for the rapist to win because Stannis is a bigger monster. He's such a damn supervillain. Consequences and realism as the excuse for why bad things happen in GOT? Nah, doesn't apply to Ramsay, he just pulls off impossible feats because of his awesomeness. He's the villainous equivalent of Tyrion, the producers' pet. The best killers of the Ironborn flee from the wrath of shirtless Ramsay and he wrecks Stannis, a commander of such skill that even Tywin considered him his most dangerous enemy, so badly that he's ready to kill his heir.

 

Unless Doran reveals another plan in 5x10, he's an idiot. He's sending his only child to KL and letting the Lannisters have Myrcella. Way to go. And Ellaria also reverses her show characterization, getting all understanding of Jaime and Cersei causing a war due to their forbidden love, which is totally the same as people judging Oberyn's relationship with a bastard.

 

So Hizdahr is dead. If he wasn't the Harpy, what was the point? Was it supposed to be awesome to watch Dany and pals heap contempt on an ignorant but relatively well-meaning man raised in a sucky culture who was, in the end, not really worse than Drogo and Jaime, the selfish, destructive killers Dany and Tyrion love? They really were doing nothing that would inspire loyalty and a genuine questioning of former beliefs, the kind of long-term change that would make Meereen better. And though Dany is lucky compared to some of the other characters, her big moment wasn't as awesome as in the books. There was no danger and no demonstration of courage in Show Dany going to Drogon, who was like an obedient Pokemon summoned at the hour of her need.

 

I'm shocked, shocked that Tyrion got yet another badass moment to demonstrate that he's practically perfect. It's not enough for him to be a virtuous political prodigy, he has to be a brave fighter too.

 

Jaime judging Myrcella's clothing was such a ridiculous "dad with bratty teen" moment. He was screwing his sister when he was younger than Myrcella, let her dress how she wants.

 

After a great episode last week that felt epic and refreshing, this was perhaps the most disappointing episode 9 the show has had. 4x09 wasn't spectacular, but it  wasn't as messy as 5x09.

[WearyTraveler]

It's.. complicated. In that there are multiple prophecies with similar requirements going on, with the Prince Who Was Promised which seems to involve a rekindling of Targaryen power and Azor Azai which is the one who defeats the Long Night(and the muddying that everyone who interprets the prophecies seems to have different ideas of exactly what they mean). And we have the whole 'the dragon must have three heads' prophecy which suggests three chosen ones. Though in Mel's chapter she has a bit where she tries looking into the flames to find Azor Azai and keeps finding Jon that is about as explicit a suggestion of who the prophecy refers to that we've ever gotten.

 

Not only that, but right before she says those words, the text establishes her as the very best seer of the flames.

 

A Dance of Dragons, Chapter 31, Melisandre I:

 

"There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

 

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

 

(Italics are not mine, they are in the text as indicators that the dialogue is Mel is thinking)

Edited June 8, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Estelindis]

Shireen's murder was an atrocity that has turned me against Stannis utterly.  I admired many qualities of his, but now I hate him more than I ever hated Joffrey or Ramsay.

 

For me, this was the most brutal moment of the show's entire history.  It made me heart-sick.  This sweet, clever, kind girl, who should have only ever been loved and protected by her parents, was betrayed in every possible sense.  Not only was she subjected to physical agony, but her sense of being loved and valued was stripped away.  She was completely forsaken - one of the last beacons of pure goodness and innocence in the show was subjected to unspeakable evil.  I do not have words strong enough for how much this appalled me. 

 

Kudos to all the actors involved, especially Kerry Ingram.  The way she screamed tore my heart out.  And the way she performed in every scene in the lead-up to her murder, showing such love and kindness, just twisted the knife.  Poor Shireen.  Poor, poor Shireen.

 

The only other thing that's capable of standing out to me, beside Shireen's ghastly fate, is the turn of events with Hizdahr in Meereen.  Trif, I agree with the following:

 

My favorite part of Draznak's pit, aside from seeing Dany's interaction with Drogon, was the dialogue on the dais. I felt like it did a great job of showing how each character has an overall philosophy and how they all see injustice in the world and have a different take on it. At the same time, Dany's enjoyment of Dario's jabs at Hizdar came across as pretty juvenile to me.  It came across as, not just that Dany disagreed with Hizdar's world view and thought Dario was exposing his hypocrisy, but rather that Dany had zero respect for Hizdar as a person and was enjoying the pissing contest a bit too much. I had a strong reaction to the shot of his body lying on the dais and bleeding, because it seems that no one will mourn him or have any sympathy for what he was trying to do. 

 

Yeah, I felt really sorry for Hizdahr, seeing him lying there, bleeding out.  He already lost his father; we don't know of any other family or loved ones.  And yes, it doesn't look like anyone will mourn him.  Earlier, on the dais, Daario engaged in knife-play around his neck.  The woman who was making him marry her seemed to find this amusing (but, given that she nearly killed him earlier, she hardly has much respect for his life).  This is the same woman who had his father crucified.  Yet his last act was to try to get her to safety.  I mean, seriously, regardless of the individual merits of what they were discussing on the dais, Hizdahr behaved with far more regard for them than they did for him.  I can't help but feel bad for him.

[Paradigm14]

I just realized a possible explanation of Ellaria's change of heart. 

Trystane may be in danger in Kings Landing. That possibly puts Oberyn's bastards as next in line. She goes along, she's Queen Mum of Dorne.

[FurryFury]

It's interesting how I was all prepared to hate Stannis' sacrifice of Shireen, but... I didn't. It made a lot of sense for his character. He killed his own brother, he was all prepared to kill his nephew - deciding to kill his daughter in such a desperate time only reinforces this facet of the character. Also, I feel like a lot of viewers/readers are so desperate for characters who aren't complete bastards that they've latched onto Stannis as an anti-heroic, but still somewhat honorable character, and such feats as saving the Night Watch supported this faith. But Stannis was never meant to be a hero, even an anti-hero. I think an event such as Shireen's burning wouldn't be out of place in the books, unlike some/most of narrative deviations this season (Dorne storyline without Arianne was just awful, imho - it wasn't that balls to the walls awesome in the books either, but at least it felt cohesive and expanded the world).

 

I'm disappointed, however, that the show followed the anticlimactic conclusion of the Meereenese Knot storyline with Dany flying away on Drogo. Hated it in the books, hate it here. I just don't give a damn about her meeting Dothraki, it's absolutely unneeded, imho. 

[Bill1978]

Quick question: Shireen seems quite shocked when she sees the wooden pyre that has been constructed for her. So where did she think she was going or what did she think she her father was asking her to do, to willingly walk through the parade of soldiers. She seems quite content on her walk until she sees what is actually going to happen to her.

[WearyTraveler]

Quick question: Shireen seems quite shocked when she sees the wooden pyre that has been constructed for her. So where did she think she was going or what did she think she her father was asking her to do, to willingly walk through the parade of soldiers. She seems quite content on her walk until she sees what is actually going to happen to her.

 

Maybe Stannis just told her that when he needed her help the guards would come and get her and that she should go with them.  It doesn't really matther, though, does it? Whatever he said, it wasn't "You want to help? Great! Tomorrow morning at first light we'll burn you in a great pyre, so the Lord of Light will help us get Winterfell.  Be ready!!!"

 

I thought one of the most heart wrenching things was that up until the last image we got of Shireen, when she was tied to the pole, she was clutching the stag Davos carved for her in her right hand.... (sniff!!!  Davos is going to be very, very angry, I think)

Edited June 8, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[vibeology]

If Ramsay is close enough to Camp Stannis to sneak up on them and burn their supplies, how is Stannis too far to reach Winterfell without a sacrifice? This show is trying way too hard to make Ramsay badass at the expense of logic.

It's Winter. Just have a storm come up and disable the camp. Same results, more logic.

Obviously I hate what happened to Shireen. She's his heir so I don't think it makes any sense for Stannis to burn her alive. The one good thing I see happening is getting Davos on team Stark and away from a group of people I think are doomed.

[paramitch]

I -- yeah. This one kind of broke me. I've never seriously considered quitting the show, but this one -- I just could not believe Stannis actually did it, burning his sweet, smart, wonderful little girl alive.

 

I've always had an inappropriate, embarrassing crush on TV Stannis, but let me just say: It's over. Big time.

 

For me, this was the most brutal moment of the show's entire history.  It made me heart-sick.  This sweet, clever, kind girl, who should have only ever been loved and protected by her parents, was betrayed in every possible sense.  Not only was she subjected to physical agony, but her sense of being loved and valued was stripped away.  She was completely forsaken - one of the last beacons of pure goodness and innocence in the show was subjected to unspeakable evil.  I do not have words strong enough for how much this appalled me. 

 

Kudos to all the actors involved, especially Kerry Ingram.  The way she screamed tore my heart out.  And the way she performed in every scene in the lead-up to her murder, showing such love and kindness, just twisted the knife.  Poor Shireen.  Poor, poor Shireen.

 

The only other thing that's capable of standing out to me, beside Shireen's ghastly fate, is the turn of events with Hizdahr in Meereen.  Trif, I agree with the following:

 

Yeah, I felt really sorry for Hizdahr, seeing him lying there, bleeding out.  He already lost his father; we don't know of any other family or loved ones.  And yes, it doesn't look like anyone will mourn him.  Earlier, on the dais, Daario engaged in knife-play around his neck.  The woman who was making him marry her seemed to find this amusing (but, given that she nearly killed him earlier, she hardly has much respect for his life).  This is the same woman who had his father crucified.  Yet his last act was to try to get her to safety.  I mean, seriously, regardless of the individual merits of what they were discussing on the dais, Hizdahr behaved with far more regard for them than they did for him.  I can't help but feel bad for him.

 

Beautifully put about the death of Shireen -- I was horrified and grieved. I also agree on Selyse -- I thought her reaction was absolutely believable. She's the textbook example of the religious fanatic who thinks they're in for all the crazy, but right at the point that they lit flames under her little girl's feet? Yeah, I can see Selyse literally rethinking EVERYTHING she has ever believed in that moment if it will save Shireen. She thought she was all in -- she wasn't. And I just wanted her to get to Shireen so badly so that Shireen wouldn't have died alone, and thinking she was abandoned and unloved. Gah.

 

While I felt very sorry for Hizdahr's situation with his father, Hizdahr isn't exactly a nice guy. He was heavily involved in the machinations of the fighting pits and actively condoned the slavery and corruption that brought them to life. Even tonight, I felt it was implied that he was off making sure the slave-fighters of the pit were ready when he was late to arrive. Even in his conversation with Tyrion, he's basically cheerfully condoning all sorts of slaughter, slavery and misery as long as it's not happening to him.

 

I didn't see Hizdahr trying to protect Dany (and can't bear to rewatch this episode), but if he was, that does change my perception of the guy a bit, however.

 

I didn't think I'd believe that Selyse could have a change of heart, but actually it worked for me. In the light of this scene, imo she repressed her love for her daughter all her life (her own feeling of failure, being crazy etc.) and when push came to shove, it overwhelmed her. Retrospectively, I'm glad for the scene in the library because there was some ambiguous care for Shireen there, only this time, and that's what came to my mind when I saw Selyse's face crumbling.

 

(snipped for space)

 

I loved how Tyrion and Daenerys found common grounds. "My father would have liked you", LOL.  Again excellent chemistry and imo, excellent acting.

 

Tyrion actually said that to Hizdahr, though, not Dany, and he said it sadly in response to Hizdahr's rather flippant POV on death being a necessary part of great things (it wasn't a compliment).

 

I'm so upset about this episode. I just don't know how to feel right now. I think this is an often brilliant and beautiful show, but if there's no one to root for, what's the point? Just when I thought the show couldn't go any lower or show us anything more horrific than it already has, they go there with Shireen. I just -- I'm not okay about this, and not because a lovely and innocent character died. I'm not okay because I thought it was a stupid thing for Stannis to do, and that for Melisandre to cheerfully burn his one child and heir -- how does that help his kingship? His kingdom? It's asinine.

 

Worst of all: If three freakin' leeches will kill three opposing leaders without even harming the bloodgiver at all, why burn Shireen? Why not just grab a few friendly leeches? Melisandre's magic is frustratingly vague.

 

Also, Melisandre's such a fan of the purifying aspects of death by fire -- to the point that she can appear both blase and cheerful when burning a little girl alive? I really really hope she gets to experience it for herself.

 

I thought the final scene at the pits was beautifully done, and I loved seeing Dany fly off on Drogon, even if part of me was still suffering PTSD from the previous scene with Shireen. As far as Jorah's greyscale, he's only contagious where he has it, and he keeps the patch on his wrist bound and covered (he was also wearing gloves for most of the scene as well). I liked Tyrion jumping into the fray and don't care if TV Tyrion isn't Book Tyrion -- he's a much nicer, cooler character, and I like seeing him empower himself in ways that the book version didn't. I was also touched at Dany's moment with Jorah and her moment with Missandei. Everyone in her little band came off well in those final moments in the arena -- I just hope they all got away after Dany did her Hiccup and Toothless thing.

 

Now excuse me as I run off and find videos of baby goats, bunnies and puppies to try to recover. Sheesh.

 

ETA: Ack! Fixed because Missandei is NOT Melisandre! (Thank goodness)

Edited June 8, 2015 by paramitch

[Haleth]

Ugh, utterly repulsive.  Fortunately I'd heard about Shireen earlier in the day so I was prepared (as one can be) for it.  It doesn't help that D&D hinted that it will happen in book 6 anyway or that it should make no difference if Stannis burns someone we know or a random character.  Yes, burning anyone is abhorant but a child?  Disgusting.

 

The only scene I liked was the Dany sequence.  The changes from the book were ok, everything turned out as it should. (Good thing the Harpies took turns attacking Dany, instead of, you know, all rushing in at once.)

 

Dorne?  Terrible storyline.  Braavos?  Meh.  (So Arya is going to play a (fully clothed) teenage prostitute to get to Trant?)  The Wall?  Ok, that wasn't bad.  I did like what Thorne said to Jon about having a good heart that will kill him.  I do like that the writers have made Thorne an adversary without any mustache twirling.

 

Don't disappoint me, episode 10.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Haleth

[Oscirus]

I'm shocked, shocked that Tyrion got yet another badass moment to demonstrate that he's practically perfect. It's not enough for him to be a virtuous political prodigy, he has to be a brave fighter too.

 

Book Tyrion is a much better fighter then show Tyrion is. His "badass moment" consisted of attacking someone from behind who was going after Missandei. Hardly the moment that warriors are made of. Speaking of which,  why did nobody in Dany's crew think to protect Missandei? It's weird that Tyrion seemed to be the only person to remember that she existed.

 

So another question I got is did the people in the Harpy masks just walk into the coliseum like that?  That seems a bit weird that they weren't at all noticeable until the plot called for it.

 

I get that the Shireen death was heartbreaking, and from a personal standpoint, I didn't like it. But from a storyline standpoint, it made all the sense in the world.. Stannis has been burning people to the fire god for a while now, it was only a matter of time before he went too far.  It also served to up the urgency for Stannis. Now this is the point of no return. Either he marches to the iron throne or he dies. There's no going back. The interesting thing is that this effectively ends the relationship with Davos. Without Davos around, his ability to inspire loyalty decreases drastically.

 

Now that I thought about it, I can kind of see what's going on with Dorn. Now Doran's son is second in line to the crown and he's on the small council which is within striking distance of the king.  And the dornish are known for their affinity for poison. 

There better be more to the sandsnakes then what's being shown.

[Notwisconsin]

What people tend to forget, in the world of the book/show, this particular god, R'ellhor (sic), is not a theoretical personification of forces, but a genuine character, and he has manifested himself several times. Why did they sacrifice Shreen? Because it works.

[anamika]

Now the religious fanatic Selyse is overpowered by her motherly feelings (of course!) while Stannis becomes yet another bad father because it's more shocking to have him kill his daughter than for it to be the work of Selyse and Melisandre.

 

 Book selyse came off as a one dimensional religious fanatic who was ugly to boot. I liked that, at the end here, her daughter's cries reached out to the mother in her. Very human and realistic.  There's nothing wrong or misogynistic or sexist about having motherly feelings.

 

Stannis on the other hand, is a hard, stubborn man. Willing to see it to the end, no matter what it took. It clearly hurt him awfully and hence why he looked on bug eyed till the very end because he wanted to experience the pain.

 

Let's remember that book Stannis is no saint. He was ready to burn a child (His nephew) to death before Davos stopped him. And he burned a 14 year old soldier in his camp because the hungry kid ate from the corpse of an already dead man. That scene in the books is brutal as the boy burns and pleads for mercy and even hardened warriors like Asha Greyjoy has to turn away.

 

As much as I like Stannis as a character, he is not a good person. Being burned to death is one of the worst ways to go. It's being tortured to death and why Jon gave Rattleshirt mercy when he was being roasted alive.

 

I still like him. So much better than the cliche, hack, overpowerd villain that's Ramsay and his goons. I am tired of the Boltons and Ramsay has taken up way too much time this season. The North/Winterfell plot was so much more interesting in the books but it just sucks balls here. After all this and killing off his own daughter, I hope Stannis at the least gets to lop off Ramsay's head.

 

Ugh, Olly. Just horrible. He ruins the wall scenes for me just by showing up.

Edited June 8, 2015 by anamika

[SeanC]

 Book selyse came off as a one dimensional religious fanatic who was ugly to boot. I liked that, at the end here, her daughter's cries reached out to the mother in her. Very human and realistic.  There's nothing wrong or misogynistic or sexist about having motherly feelings.

Book Selyse loves Shireen and is very insistent on her rights and status, unlike the show version.

[MarySNJ]

Been a while since I posted here although I've enjoyed reading everyone's insights weekly.

 

I'm not sure I'll get over Shireen. I was literally shaking when the episode ended, and I just KNEW when Davos gave her that stag toy, she was toast (no pun intended). Damn it. That being said, apparently I can't blame this on the twisted minds of D&D because apparently Shireen's horrible death was conceived by GRRM. I want Stannis and Melisandre to rot in the 7 Hells or burned alive on R'hollor's fire. Let them feel what "being cleansed" feels like first hand. 

 

A couple of questions/comments: How do we know Hizdar is dead? He was still breathing and bleeding last we saw. And I think he was stabbed on the right side of his body, not the left. If the SotH wanted him dead, they could have stabbed him in the heart or slashed his throat. I still think he's part of the plot to get rid of Daenerys, even if some of his compatriots are willing to use and dispose of him. 

 

I think D&D have something in mind for the Dornish contingent, but it's still being set up - awkwardly. Maybe I should say "I hope" something is being set up because otherwise it seems like quite a waste of screen time to have the sand snakes mucking about with nothing to do. I think Alexander Siddig is a great actor, woefully under used in this series, but i liked Doran's combination of pragmatic pacifism, mercy and "don't fuck with me" attitude with Illyria. That being said, I think her conciliatory tone with Jaime was fake. 

 

I laughed out loud at Mace Tyrell singing. That was probably the only "light" moment in the show. Of course, they set Meryn up to be a pedophile... got to set the stage for Arya to play a role and get close enough to kill him. But, ugh. 

 

Was very surprised not only that Ser Alliser opened the gate but also that he paid Jon a sort of compliment, although backhanded. He's definitely hardcore "for the Watch" and I wonder if he will figure into a future assignation attempt or if that will be left to the kid. 

[anamika]

Book Selyse loves Shireen and is very insistent on her rights and status, unlike the show version.

 

Book Selyse was cold and distant towards her daughter. As was her father. Shireen was a lonely girl. And I don't think the show stated/showed that Selyse did not love her daughter? Only that she regretted giving Stannis a daughter who had grey scale.

Edited June 8, 2015 by anamika

[Sakura12]

I was shocked that Selyse actually has a heart, I guess it takes hearing the screams of the burning of her only child to snap her out of the the Red Witches thrall. You are dead to me Stannis. Ramsey have at him. After that someone can kill you. I can't believe any men would follow a man that would burn his own child. What kind of message does that send? 

 

I did like Drogon coming to rescue mom, like in the books. But riding a dragon looks painful. I hope the Targs have some kind of magical padded seat that shows up when their dragon starts to fly. She did ditch her friends, but I imagine the Harpies should be worried she can come back and attack from the air and burn their city to the ground. She's got the crazy Targaryen blood in her. 

 

Arya will always be a Stark first. She needs to get her revenge out of her system before she becomes no one. 

 

I think more people should follow Jon, instead of running away, Jon stays and fights by his people's side. Yes, that could give him a short rule as a King but he will be remembered as someone that was worth fighting for. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[perditax]

Dumb question going back to Dorne and Ellaria:

 

I know that vengeance over the death of a loved one is a standard motivator in this kind of story (and indeed in GoT in general), but why are Ellaria and the kids so hellbent on destroying the Lannisters? Wasn't Oberyn's death more or less via a fair fight that came about as his own choice? Am I forgetting some sort of double-crossing that occurred? It seems like it would be the same thing as swearing vengeance because someone died in the jousting tournaments. So I must be missing something.

[Haleth]

It's Winter. Just have a storm come up and disable the camp. Same results, more logic.

Which reminds me, we've yet to see the foretold massive blizzards.  Stannis's army is stuck in that little flurry?  I guess the CGI budget was blown on Hardhome and Drogon.

[Amarsir]

My favorite thing about the Sons of the Harpy attack was the stadium tiers in the background. People were alternately running clockwise and counter-clockwise on different tiers.  Together it made a nice little pattern, but I can't say it remotely looked like fleeing or fighting.

 

Oh, that and the Sons must be have ADHD. They seemed to forget who their target was so frequently that they were literally throwing spears past Dani in order to hit Drogon behind her. 

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Nick Rheinwald-Jones Particles last night's episode here!: http://previously.tv/game-of-thrones/dragon-miss-daisy/

[mac123x]

I was listening to the E4.09 commentary track (actors for Jon, Sam, and Ygritte commenting), and all three of them were heaping praise on the actor playing Olly, how great and multitalented he is, etc.  I had to laugh out loud, because I've found his performance this season to be Jake Lloyd levels of bad.

 

 

It's.. complicated. In that there are multiple prophecies with similar requirements going on, with the Prince Who Was Promised which seems to involve a rekindling of Targaryen power and Azor Azai which is the one who defeats the Long Night(and the muddying that everyone who interprets the prophecies seems to have different ideas of exactly what they mean). And we have the whole 'the dragon must have three heads' prophecy which suggests three chosen ones. Though in Mel's chapter she has a bit where she tries looking into the flames to find Azor Azai and keeps finding Jon that is about as explicit a suggestion of who the prophecy refers to that we've ever gotten.

 

I always thought Tyrion was speaking for GRRM when he said, "Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head".  Also, there's Marwyn's opinion...

Edited June 8, 2015 by mac123x

[Philbert]

 

As recently as two episodes ago, they reiterated the point that has been driving him. That STANNIS, and only Stannis, can lead the fight against the forces of the great other. Sure, we know that he and Mel are mistaken, but the thing is, they don't. I've often thought that Stannis is the most tragic figure in this whole universe, a man who sacrifices everything dear to him, because he believes himself to be the savior of the world.

 

This line of thinking, while obviously wrong to us, would certainly explain why he felt he had to do what he did. I agree with your point here and I think that's exactly where they are going with this. The whole thing felt like a Greek Tragedy to me-the would be hero sacrifices his beloved child to defeat the forces of evil...but realizes to his horror that he's NOT the Hero. It's obvious that Martin (and B&W) are setting Jon up as the savior that Melisandre has been going on about...not Stannis. Shireen probably died for nothing-and that's the point. That explains why that I'm not angry at the showrunners for this. Yes, it sucks to like a character and have him do a horrible thing but at least I get why he's doing it. What I hope that Stannis (and we, his poor tortured fanbase) gets at the end of this story is at least a shot at is a chance to redeem himself by dying heroically against the forces of evil. That's as good as any of us are gonna get at this point-kind of like Spike getting burned up by the magic amulet while Buffy drives off in a school bus on her way to Cleveland with that pack of stupid girls. (no, I'm  not still bitter at the craptastically bad BTVS ending of 12 years ago. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)

Edited June 8, 2015 by Philbert