S01.E23: Fast Enough

[JTMacc99]

That was fun!

 

I didn't see Eddie shooting himself, so that was excellent TV.

 

The only thing that bothered me was the cliffhanger. I can't imagine any scenario where Barry doesn't stop the black hole from swallowing the earth and escape unharmed, and I don't have any specific reason to worry about anybody but Barry. 

 

Worse, it seems like running really fast around a singularity is exactly the kind of crap that could cause another time event.  And since Wells told Cisco that being able to see through time event changes is his superpower in this episode, one would think that more time events are coming for Cisco to explore his power.

 

And of course, if there is a time event, exactly how much of what happened here will stick?

Edited May 20, 2015 by JTMacc99

[ottoDbusdriver]

I didn't see Eddie shooting himself, so that was excellent TV.

 

It would have been funny if, after Eddie shot himself in the heart, that Maury Povich showed up and proclaimed " Eddie Thawne.  In the case of Eobard Thawne, you are ....... NOT ...... the great-great-great-great-grandfather".  And nothing happened to Eobard, and the fight with The Flash continued.

Edited May 20, 2015 by ottoDbusdriver

[Sakura12]

I am more tolerant about Barry going back to the past to save his mother even as he risks the earth. It is preposterous, but I am willing to go along with the suspension of reality. Besides, in the end Barry made the hard decision to let the past stay as is. He gets tons of kudos from me for making that decision. 

 

He could've come to that decision before going back in time and risk destroying the world. Instead he went anyway and did nothing. Therefore he risked destroying the world for no reason. He gets no kudos from me for that decision. 

 

I get that this is a comic book show, so I will go along with it, but I will still think it was stupid and selfish of him. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Sakura12

[Chicago Redshirt]

That's the thing, though -- from the perspective of the characters, you can't trust anything RF says or does 100 percent. Maybe he is the distant ancestor of child Eddie and Iris had. Maybe he's a child Eddie had or will have with a random fling. Maybe he's not truly an ancestor of this Eddie Thawne, but some other Eddie Thawne. I would have laughed my ass off if Eddie shot himself, and RF was like, "Too late! You have a bastard kid from that hookup you had two New Year's Eves ago that you didn't even know about. I told you you wouldn't amount to anything! Now to get back to beating Barry's ass."

[LucidDreamer]

What was with Caitlin not understanding what was going on and not knowing what a singularity was?

 

 

THIS, made me scream at my television.

Writers -- couldn't you have given that line to another character who is, oh I don't know, NOT a brilliant scientist. (I get that this isn't her specialty but I know what a singularity is in relation to a black hole and I am certainly no scientist).

Also, putting it the female scientist's mouth? Ugh.

Actually, I see no reason to have to have that dialogue exchange anyway. It assumes the audience is stupid -- I mean, who do they think is watching this show? Most of us watching are going to be scifi fans and/or have seen a Star Trek episode or film (or two, or three, or...) It's not such an unusual term in the spec. fic. world that it needs to be explained via clunky dialogue.

 

Liked the finale otherwise, but this made me want to go back in time to erase that line.

[Sandman]

For a moment, I actually hoped that Caitlin was twitting the others for their imprecise language. She might have said "Oh, you mean a quantum singularity!"

Heh. As long as I'm making up dialogue, maybe Eddie could have said "Barry, you need to get me to my urologist's office right the hell now. Run, Barry, RUN!"

[Racj82]

He couldn't have had the vasectomy during the Reverse Flash/Flash fight scene, no. But he had the perfect opportunity right after his conversation with Dr. Stein and the whole you have your own destiny thing, and even right after going to Iris' workplace. Says he wants his destiny with her, then pops off to the urologist, and boom! Reverse Flash is gone.  Vasectomies aren't major operations and don't take that long. From a purely practical perspective, yes, it would have taken Eddie some time in real life to find a urologist with an open appointment less than three months out, but that could have been handwaved.

 

Yes, this way, Eddie got a big heroic moment and the season got to end with a big black hole, but sneaking a little vasectomy in there and having everyone head back into Star Labs to find that Reverse Flash is gone - and then, as Eddie explains what he did, slowly panning to having everything else shimmering and changing because without Reverse Flash, Barry didn't become the Flash this season and therefore didn't meet anyone at Star Labs, also Star Labs is totally different because the original Wells is running it - this all could have been fun and a really cool cliffhanger of, ok, how does the show get Barry back from this?  But not the way the episode went.

 

He couldn't have had the vasectomy during the Reverse Flash/Flash fight scene, no. But he had the perfect opportunity right after his conversation with Dr. Stein and the whole you have your own destiny thing, and even right after going to Iris' workplace. Says he wants his destiny with her, then pops off to the urologist, and boom! Reverse Flash is gone.  Vasectomies aren't major operations and don't take that long. From a purely practical perspective, yes, it would have taken Eddie some time in real life to find a urologist with an open appointment less than three months out, but that could have been handwaved.

 

Yes, this way, Eddie got a big heroic moment and the season got to end with a big black hole, but sneaking a little vasectomy in there and having everyone head back into Star Labs to find that Reverse Flash is gone - and then, as Eddie explains what he did, slowly panning to having everything else shimmering and changing because without Reverse Flash, Barry didn't become the Flash this season and therefore didn't meet anyone at Star Labs, also Star Labs is totally different because the original Wells is running it - this all could have been fun and a really cool cliffhanger of, ok, how does the show get Barry back from this?  But not the way the episode went.

Oh come on. Stopping Thawne from being born wasn't what he was talking about when he was talked to Dr,. Stein. He just felt that in general he had no purpose. Making sure he doesn't have kids isn't exactly the first thing that might have spurn to his mind. And, this is a tv show. I honestly get annoyed sometimes with people wanting characters to make what would be the most boring choice possible for what is supposed to be entertainment. Yes, logic would dictate that someone would never even try to go back in time because it was too risky. But, this is a tv show. Just saying "aww screw it, it's too dicey" doesn't make good television. Barry trying to and succeeding at time travel but realizing the right choice and also being able to say goodbye to his mom does (at the least, it's a more dramatic choice). Yes, Eddie just making some variation of a decision where he doesn't have kids is a logical decision. It's also boring as all hell and doesn't give the jolt, episodes like this needs. We all know why show creators and writers make grand choices like these.

 

Much like Heroes season 1 when Nathan grabbed Peter and flew away before he went super nova on the city and blew up, risking his life to save the world, you have to go with it some times (IMO) and stay in the moment. The reality is that Peter already adapted Nathan's flying power so he could have done it himself. The creators have even acknowledged this. But, they felt it necessary for Nathan to make the sacrifice in order to complete his arc of that season. I'm fine with it. There is a simpler way to solve the issue but it's also far less dramatic and impactful. I'm okay with that. Showrunners are trying to entertain. I allow them creative license in cases like these.

[ShannaB]

I would just love to see Sheldon, Leonard, Howard and Raj discuss this Finale.  I wonder if I would be more confused.

[apinknightmare]

The heart-rending sacrifice of a lifelong dream, denying himself the joy of realizing the impossible wish he has clung to since he was a little boy.

 

If you can't see the heroism in that, sorry, I can't help you.

 

The fact that he went to save his mother at all renders any heroism of the moment he decided not to do it (after his future self told him not to, not through any decision making of his own in the present) null and void. 

[Iamsweetdee]

The fact that he went to save his mother at all renders any heroism of the moment he decided not to do it (after his future self told him not to, not through any decision making of his own in the present) null and void. 

Sorry, that's just overly simplistic and ridiculous. What you're saying is there is no room for growth, learning and development. People should know already. Kinda defeats the purpose of life. 

[FurryFury]

No Wells = No show for me, so I guess it's goodbye. I'll probably watch the episodes having to do with LOT though, but that's it.

 

Also, seriously? Killing off Eddie? How original. That said, I've got a kick out of Iris choosing him over Barry. That felt so satisfying. 

 

Loved Wells' scenes with everyone (but why not with Caitlin? That was disappointing, she was again relegated to be all about Ronnie (the wedding was absolutely out of the blue) and ask stupid OOC questions (a scientist who doesn't know what singularity means? Seriously? I know what it means and I don't even have a college degree.

 

Still convinced Future Barry's bad news. Wells never spilling the beans about why exactly he hates him was too conspicuous. 

 

I wonder if the show will acknowledge that Wells never having existed should reboot the show in a major way - like no Nora's death. Or maybe the wormhole thing will somehow revive Eddie, also possible.

[apinknightmare]

Sorry, that's just overly simplistic and ridiculous. What you're saying is there is no room for growth, learning and development. People should know already. Kinda defeats the purpose of life. 

 

Where was the growth though? He didn't get there and decide it was wrong (which would be growth), he didn't go through with it because his future self motioned not to when he saw present Barry in the house. 

 

And I do think that there is room for growth - I'm not saying that good things can't come from stupid, selfish decisions, I just can't get on board with Barry ever even making the decision to go back in the past knowing what it could cost him (and other people) if he messed up in any way. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Sakura12]

He should know because people told him it was dangerous, I think Stein said "It could cause a Global Catastrophe" . That should've made him change his mind. Sorry, one person isn't worth destroying the whole world. 

 

He was willing to change everyone's lives, just so he could have his mommy back. Even his father told him not to do it because the risk was to great. 

 

I'm hoping Rip Hunter comes in next season and tells Barry that if he knows nothing about time travel he shouldn't play around with it. I also hope going into the black hole makes Barry come out into a changed world where nothing is what he wanted it to be. Then Rip can change it back, hoping stupid Barry finally learned his lesson. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

Okay, so am I to understand from all the complaints that a majority of people here would have rather seen Barry be offered the chance to time travel back to save his mom, hear about the danger, say "Nope, never mind" and the episode ends?

[Cirien]

Okay, so am I to understand from all the complaints that a majority of people here would have rather seen Barry be offered the chance to time travel back to save his mom, hear about the danger, say "Nope, never mind" and the episode ends?

Once he heard about the dangers to the rest of the planet? YES.

Possibly sacrificing 7 billon people for maybe getting one person back

[FurryFury]

I might just watch the next season of Flash just to see how incompetent Barry gets.  This season alone, he managed to get people to ship the wrong couple, he made Captain Cold look like a boss, loses to the main bad guy in his own finale and watches as someone else actually does the heroic thing. I'm starting to think that Eobard sped up Flash's creation for revenge against Central City.

 

Eobard, you sir are a genius.

I wanna marry this post and have its babies.

Seriously, this season (or rather the back half) has managed to turn a smart, dorky, goofy, likable character into a stupid, whiny guy obsessed with his adopted sister and constantly making wrong decisions. I can't believe this is the same character I've loved in Arrow s2 (but then, everything was better in Arrow s2). I still like GG, but Barry is the worst.

[nksarmi]

I think it would have been better if they had changed the order of the episodes so that Barry had no idea that Wells was RF and he had no knowledge of the possible singularity when this happened.  Then he isn't really risking the world - he's just risking his present relationships.  Then in the past he can put two and two together and come back to battle Wells/RF in this present. 

 

This should have been a two-part episode with Barry saying goodbye to his mother at the end of the first half as Wells prepares to travel forward in time without anyone's knowledge and then at the start of the next episode Barry comes out of the vortex to fight Wells/RF and game on for the finale.

 

Plus, for the record, just Eddie's decision to get a vasectomy should have been enough to change the timeline if it was certain he would follow through on it.  But what I really need the show to explain is if RF is erased from the timeline has does current Barry/Flash exist? 

 

And can someone please tell me why Barry has not consulted Gideon the last two episodes?  Did it get destroyed?  And I also want to know why a guy who is from more than 100 years in the future is Barry's arch enemy to begin with.

[AD35]

 

That's the thing, though -- from the perspective of the characters, you can't trust anything RF says or does 100 percent. Maybe he is the distant ancestor of child Eddie and Iris had. Maybe he's a child Eddie had or will have with a random fling. Maybe he's not truly an ancestor of this Eddie Thawne, but some other Eddie Thawne. I would have laughed my ass off if Eddie shot himself, and RF was like, "Too late! You have a bastard kid from that hookup you had two New Year's Eves ago that you didn't even know about. I told you you wouldn't amount to anything! Now to get back to beating Barry's ass."

 

And who's to say that Eobard has to be a biological descendant of Eddie.  What if Eddie and a future Mrs. Eddie Thawne decided to adopt instead?  As far as trusting villains in this ep and the last, I hope that for the next season Barry will be alot more streetwise and not be so trusting. He doesn't need to have Oliver Queen's perma-scowl when dealing with them, but showing some common sense would help alot.  And while he's at it some hand-to-hand or martial arts training should be in order as well.

[phoenics]

Once he heard about the dangers to the rest of the planet? YES.

Possibly sacrificing 7 billon people for maybe getting one person back

I think it would have been better if RF escaped somehow and he ripped the space time continuum, even though Barry made the "un-selfish" choice not to... something like that.

On the other hand, although I can totally see how some think Barry was horribly selfish and out of touch to even consider doing this, I also know that this is a HUGE deal on the part of The Flash character and basically the REASON we have the new 52 now (which I hate). It's simply a huge part of his origin/growth story as much as Iris West is. It drives his character and much of the Flash mythos.

About Iris and Eddie - I literally hollered when Eddie was shown to have shot himself. That made me just so sad - I did get emotional there... and sadly I think he took away Iris' only storyline (since the writers refuse to actively engage the character, even though she's clearly the lead actress.) But I do have some hope he will be back - just a matter of when.

I don't think Iris will have to grieve as horribly because she didn't 1) cheat on Eddie with Barry and 2) she did choose Eddie, so at least she won't be reeling from all of the guilt. She'll have to mourn, obviously, but hopefully this will not drag on. I'm hoping for a "Barry saves the world" in the premiere and then a time jump. Get back to the action.

[ruby24]

Someone mentioned to me recently how this pattern of killing off the "other guy" exists on three different Greg Berlanti shows now- Everwood, Arrow and The Flash, lol. They just can't think of other ways to end the stupid love triangles (or do it in a way that gives them a ready made excuse to keep delaying the inevitable main pairing as long as possible even after the third wheel's been written off).

[Sandman]

I'm confused: if by going back to save his mom Barry changes the past to the extent of never becoming the Flash, is Barry also changing the fate of those affected by the explosion at STAR Labs? I thought I heard something during the episode about metahumans not being created if the accelerator never blows up. Cisco says they might never meet in the altered timeline, which suggests to me that the explosion that creates the Flash might not have happened in the version of reality that includes Nora Allen.

Does saving Nora also imply saving all those who would have been victims of the explosion, or of the metahumans created by the explosion? That would seem to make Barry's decision less about his own needs. I want Barry to have something other than his personal happiness at stake, but I may be reaching.

(Does anyone else think we need a new grammatical tense or mood for dealing with time travel paradoxes? Constructing a sentence in the, I don't know, putative mode? temporal aorist? -- might have a way of making events like "Eobard Thawne never will have happened" seem less migraine-inducing. I think. Wait -- probably not.)

[FurryFury]

Someone mentioned to me recently how this pattern of killing off the "other guy" exists on three different Greg Berlanti shows now- Everwood, Arrow and The Flash, lol. They just can't think of other ways to end the stupid love triangles (or do it in a way that gives them a ready made excuse to keep delaying the inevitable main pairing as long as possible even after the third wheel's been written off).

I'm already betting the nerdy friend with a crush from Supergirl bites it at the end of season 1, because clearly Jimmy Olsen is the lead love interest. Yawn. We will probably supposed to be in suspense than he will become Toyman or whatever's his namesake in the comics is called, but there's a twist! His cousin twice removed is Toyman and will become a villain to avenge his death! Or something like this. Seriously, calling it right now.

Edited May 20, 2015 by FurryFury

[AyChihuahua]

Story can still be fun even when one acknowledges what actually happened.  I certainly enjoyed the crap out of that finale, and I've enjoyed the entire season, even though Barry is the most unheroic 'hero' to ever grace my screen.  

You obviously have not met Oliver Queen.

[Lady Calypso]

I'm confused: if by going back to save his mom Barry changes the past to the extent of never becoming the Flash, is Barry also changing the fate of those affected by the explosion at STAR Labs? I thought I heard something during the episode about metahumans not being created if the accelerator never blows up. Cisco says they might never meet in the altered timeline, which suggests to me that the explosion that creates the Flash might not have happened in the version of reality that includes Nora Allen. Does saving Nora also imply saving all those who would have been victims of the explosion, or of the metahumans created by the explosion? That would seem to make Barry's decision less about his own needs. I want Barry to have something other than his personal happiness at stake, but I may be reaching. (Does anyone else think we need a new grammatical tense or mood for dealing with time travel paradoxes? Constructing a sentence in the, I don't know, putative mode? temporal aorist? -- might have a way of making events like "Eobard Thawne never will have happened" seem less migraine-inducing. I think. Wait -- probably not.)

 

From what Eobard said in this episode about why he killed Nora, it seems like Barry would have become The Flash anyway, but it just would have happened later. Eobard said to the real Harrison Wells that he was meant to build the particle accelerator that would cause the Flash to be born, but Eobard had to speed things along (IIRC, but please correct me if this is wrong). So, Barry was always meant to be The Flash and in Eobard's original timeline, it sounds like Nora was supposed to be alive. He killed her because he couldn't kill young Barry, but Eobard's original timeline seems to suggest that Nora was never supposed to be attacked, let alone killed, so he already messed with the timeline once so this timeline isn't even the 'real' one, if that makes sense. 

 

But I think you're right in that the metahumans wouldn't have been created, so the world would have a few more years without many metas, if any at all. 

[Sakura12]

They did say Harrison Wells did create the Particle Accelerator, Eobard as Harrison just created years earlier. So I think the Meta's would've still been created however Barry not losing him mother may have made not around Central City at that time and therefore the Flash is never created. 

 

Eddie killing himself and erasing Eobard seems to be the catalyst to changing everything now. By doing that he should've erased everything that happened in the past year or so. Harrison Well should still be alive and he should be the one to really create the Particle Accelerator. 

 

As for Barry saying no to time travel, yes I think he should've said that. They entire show hasn't been about Barry time traveling, they didn't need the episode to only do that. If they wanted to do Time Travel, they couldn't done many other things to make that happen without Barry choosing to Time Travel and risk destroying the world. They had a super villain he could've escaped (because come on he built those cells) and started running around the accelerator forcing Barry to join him (which would've been his plan since RF is not fast enough on his own). Once in the time force that's when Barry sees everything and finds the day of his mother's murder. Then he would've been given the chance to save her and he could've chose not to because his future self told him not to. Then he could've gotten back in the time force and found Wells trying to get back to the future and stopped him. I would've found that far more heroic. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Sakura12

[venusnv80]

So Eddie was an only child? No other siblings exist to give birth to Thawne? I was relieved that no one wanted Barry to go back and save Eddie. I'm glad he died and the show can move on from that annoying, CWesque triangle.

[Xantar]

So basically for some people the show is only enjoyable when Barry is heroic and does all the right things (as defined by the viewers)? He's not allowed to be selfish, make mistakes, and then realize what he's done?

 

OK then.

[SimoneS]

I think that Eddie used deductive reasoning to correctly conclude that he must be important and Eobard's direct ancestor because he kidnapped Eddie and insisted that he was not important. I think that was more than enough to conclude the reverse was, in fact, true. Unlike Barry, Eddie understood that Eobard was most likely lying about everything or at least giving a version of events to further his agenda.

Edited May 20, 2015 by SimoneS

[Cirien]

So basically for some people the show is only enjoyable when Barry is heroic and does all the right things (as defined by the viewers)? He's not allowed to be selfish, make mistakes, and then realize what he's done?

 

OK then.

Not when practically all the signs and evidence and people around him (including his own FATHER FFS)  are telling him it's a bad idea, and he's getting advice from a *supervillian*. And yes I know Joe told him to go for it but Joe it seems will do whatever it takes to placate Barry. Barry tells him  he told Iris about his feelings. Joe starts trying to push Iris towards Barry. Joe is coming from feelings of guilt not paternal affection.

 

And Barry is 25. He's old enough to do the math of "1 person vs 7 billion".

 

EDIT: and Y'all should know by now I'm SV!Clark lover,and would have called him out when he was a dumbass, but Clark was a teenager for the first years of the show. Barry is an adult. And with Iris he turned into the "nice guy" so no I don't like him right now

Edited May 20, 2015 by Cirien

[henripootel]

Technically, <i>Terminator</i> is a well constructed closed causal loop. It's <i>T2</i> that works the way you describe.

Terminator had its own logical flaws though.  If Skynet could send back Ah-nold, why not equip him with scientific and business knowledge?  Forget the 'original' way this happened (with crappy human reverse engineering), just have a T-800 go back and set up his own company.  Shit, if he goes back to the 80s, he can set up Google/Microsoft/Apple all in one shot, sell awesome electronics at reasonable prices, then wipe out humanity at its leisure.  Starting with that pesky Sarah Conner.  This is the problem with time travel: it solves all problems but only if you're smart.

 

Here's a question: why couldn't Barry just bring his critically-injured mom into the future and whisk her to a hospital here?  One dead woman wouldn't change anything, and now that she's alive (hopefully) they can bring up some bullshit amnesia story.  Barry's dad obviously didn't kill her so he gets a new trial, and given the 'mistakes' already made in his case, he's out by lunchtime. And it would have taken Barry less time than crying over his mom and endangering the world.  I thought it was a pretty touching scene to be honest, but possibly unnecessary.

[FurryFury]

So basically for some people the show is only enjoyable when Barry is heroic and does all the right things (as defined by the viewers)? He's not allowed to be selfish, make mistakes, and then realize what he's done?

 

OK then.

It's OK to be selfish and have flaws, but they have to acknowledged by the show itself and have major, long-lasting consequences. It has to be made clear that the hero was in the wrong. One line at the end of an episode and then everything is forgotten has been the show's motto, and it just ain't cutting for me.

 

But then Oliver's hypocrisy on Arrow has also never truly been acknowledged (at least while I've watched it).

[Glory]

Here's a question: why couldn't Barry just bring his critically-injured mom into the future and whisk her to a hospital here?  One dead woman wouldn't change anything, and now that she's alive (hopefully) they can bring up some bullshit amnesia story.  Barry's dad obviously didn't kill her so he gets a new trial, and given the 'mistakes' already made in his case, he's out by lunchtime. And it would have taken Barry less time than crying over his mom and endangering the world.  I thought it was a pretty touching scene to be honest, but possibly unnecessary.

Because we don't yet know (and the writer's probably don't know, either) how time travel works in the Flash universe. 

 

Say Barry scoops up his mom and runs back to Caitlin with her. She immediately starts working on saving Nora Allen. However, now Nora Allen has disappeared from that timeline. So, maybe Barry's father isn't charged with her death (no body) but she is now a missing persons case. Maybe they even suspect foul play because they find her blood on the dining room floor. Maybe Henry loses his job and career over media backlash due to his wife's disappearance that he's suspected of having been involved in. Henry and Barry become homeless because Henry can't support himself. Or Henry becomes obsessed with the mystery of what happens to Nora and he neglects Barry. Barry falls in with the wrong crowd...

 

You see where I'm going with this? Now Nora's absence has a whole new ripple effect on the future from that point on from her disappearance. 

 

This is probably why Future!Flash told Present!Barry to stand down. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Glory

[Xantar]

The thing about taking advice from Eobard Thawne is that he's a villain, yes, and a complete psychopath and a killer. But even he wouldn't risk the destruction of the entire world. He lives on this earth, too. And it's been shown that he knows how to do science (at least the weird, bizarro-science that exists in this series). So if he tells Barry that it's possible to save his mom and do it safely, then Barry is entitled to trust him that far.

 

As far as messing up the timeline and all that, it depends on your philosophical view of whether Barry is destroying anything by altering the timeline. If some people never get born, did he kill them? If nobody ever remembers it or knows that it happened, does it matter? According to Dr. Stein, even Barry himself wouldn't remember it happening. Yes, there are butterfly effects, but the thing about those is people always assume a butterfly effect leads to disaster and catastrophe. Just because that's what is always depicted in fiction (because it's more interesting) doesn't mean it's true. The truth is nobody (except Future Flash, apparently) knows what saving Nora Allen would do. The consequences are literally infinite and unknowable.

 

So really Barry's decision was as close to a Kantian moral decision as you can get. The only thing he knows is that he can save his mother's life. Nobody else will know what he did, and he doesn't know if the consequences will be good or bad. It doesn't seem that easy to me to say that he's definitely, 100% in the wrong.

 

ETA: The point is you can fanwank your way out of all kinds of quandaries on this show. It's clear to me that the science on this show is whatever the writers want it to be. It's not even internally consistent.

 

We're not meant to take the rules of this show's universe seriously. This is not a science fiction show. It's fantasy. The point is not to make us think about time travel. The point is to give us the scene of Barry comforting his dying mother, and the exact way we get there doesn't really matter because ALL THE SCIENCE IS JUNK. There's nothing wrong with saying you can't suspend disbelief that far. I've certainly been unforgiving of the flaws in Agents of SHIELD, and the less said about Arrow's most recent season, the better. For me, the difference is that the characters on The Flash are likable while those on SHIELD are asshats (to me, personally). And that's why I'm willing to come along for the ride.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Xantar

[cambridgeguy]

 

Story can still be fun even when one acknowledges what actually happened.  I certainly enjoyed the crap out of that finale, and I've enjoyed the entire season, even though Barry is the most unheroic 'hero' to ever grace my screen.

Never watched Smallville, huh?

 

Also, Barry deserves crap for going back in time BUT everyone else was, after some weak objections, more or less OK with it and actively helped out.  The one big objector was Henry, the man who absolutely had the most to gain.  What kind of heroic support team says OK, go ahead and risk destroying the planet.

[MarkHB]

Not when practically all the signs and evidence and people around him...  are telling him it's a bad idea, and he's getting advice from a *supervillian*.

 

Now we're back to the Oliver Queen comparison....  ;)

[KirkB]

If Barry had just decided not to do it, the episode would be like 10 minutes long, and that's not much of a season finale.

[manbearpig]

So basically for some people the show is only enjoyable when Barry is heroic and does all the right things (as defined by the viewers)? He's not allowed to be selfish, make mistakes, and then realize what he's done?

 

OK then.

 

I don't mind if a hero has flaws, but potentially destroying the earth because you want to see how your life would have turned out your mother was still alive is a decision I wouldn't expect a sane person to make. I don't need Barry to be perfect, but having essentially the entire cast bar his father tell him it was okay if he almost destroyed the world because...why? I don't even know why they were all encouraging him when they've locked meta-humans up for less serious offences.

 

 

If Barry had just decided not to do it, the episode would be like 10 minutes long, and that's not much of a season finale.

 

I didn't think it was much of a season finale, anyway, and they could have went in another direction.

Edited May 20, 2015 by manbearpig

[Cirien]

Never watched Smallville, huh?

 

Also, Barry deserves crap for going back in time BUT everyone else was, after some weak objections, more or less OK with it and actively helped out.  The one big objector was Henry, the man who absolutely had the most to gain.  What kind of heroic support team says OK, go ahead and risk destroying the planet.

Again Clark was a teenager for the first five seasons. When he finished the show he was close to the age that Barry is now. Barry is an Adult Clark was a teen. And When the man who has most to gain (apart from Barry himself) is saying "no don't do it" then Barry needs a smack.

[Xenith22]

He couldn't have had the vasectomy during the Reverse Flash/Flash fight scene/

Okay I'm just going to say it...technically he could have given himself one with his gun.  Although I can certainly see how a quick death might be thought of as a preferable option to the pain and memory of blowing your own balls off...

 

Plus, for the record, just Eddie's decision to get a vasectomy should have been enough to change the timeline if it was certain he would follow through on it.  But what I really need the show to explain is if RF is erased from the timeline has does current Barry/Flash exist?

Yeah it may indeed have worked, but in the heat of the moment he was probably not thinking in terms of what he could do in the future as much as what he could do in the present?   Everyone seemed perfectly content to let Eobard return to his future and be the future Flash's problem right up until the moment Barry pulled the double cross on him.  It wasn't until that moment that Eobard became an immediate threat that had to be dealt with without much time for planning.  (I will say that from where he was standing I believe that Eddie trying to fatally shoot the RF by surprise could have potentially easily resulted in Barry also being fatally shot)

 

I'm confused: if by going back to save his mom Barry changes the past to the extent of never becoming the Flash, is Barry also changing the fate of those affected by the explosion at STAR Labs? I thought I heard something during the episode about metahumans not being created if the accelerator never blows up. Cisco says they might never meet in the altered timeline, which suggests to me that the explosion that creates the Flash might not have happened in the version of reality that includes Nora Allen. Does saving Nora also imply saving all those who would have been victims of the explosion, or of the metahumans created by the explosion? That would seem to make Barry's decision less about his own needs.

Well first of all Barry's mom not dying would not have likely changed Eobard's actions?  So the accelerator explosion and events would have likely happened pretty much the same?  Beyond that even if it had somehow reverted events back to their original path keep in mind it was implied that the real Harrison Wells still built the accelerator and it went boom creating the Flash and other metas it just happened X number of years later than now.  So Barry would just be exchanging one set of casualties for another.

 

 

The professor had to make Eddie realize that Reverse Flash could have shown him anything?  For that matter, once the gang knew that he'd been watching them, what made them think that the headline they saw on Gideon was real and not just a plant?

To be fair if you are willing to accept the fact that the reverse Flash was Eobard Thawne and an ancestor of Eddie (which surely they confirmed with Gideon offscreen?), had Eddie been supposed to end up with Iris in Thawne's timeline then he would certainly not want to do anything at all to endanger that relationship or risk causing himself to cease to exist?

 

On a different note does anyone else think that the way the black hole suddenly openend after Eobard vanishing was the universes way of dealing with the mess created?  So some universal force (or the Time Masters) put it there to erase this reality which now exists as an impossible paradoxical loop (Thing could not be as they are had Thawne never arrived, but if things went back to their original path before the Reverse Flash intervened then Eddie would not be dead and thus Thawne would exist and intervene in an endless loop.  Maybe that is how Rip Hunter will first come into play?)

Edited May 20, 2015 by Xenith22

[KirkB]

I got the impression everything was fine until Eddie killed himself. Wiping Eobard from existence seemed to be what destabilized the wormhole and created the black hole. Since Barry didn't actually do anything to alter the timeline it was Eobard and all his exploits no longer happening which seemed to be too much for the universe to handle.

[bluebonnet]

If Barry had just decided not to do it, the episode would be like 10 minutes long, and that's not much of a season finale.

The writers could have always, I don't know, written better.  They wanted this blackhole plot to end the season.  There are many ways to get it done that doesn't need to involve Barry being the jerk who intentionally brought it on just because he wanted to go save mommy.  

I got the impression everything was fine until Eddie killed himself. Wiping Eobard from existence seemed to be what destabilized the wormhole and created the black hole. Since Barry didn't actually do anything to alter the timeline it was Eobard and all his exploits no longer happening which seemed to be too much for the universe to handle.

Probably.  But at least that was unintentional.  He also didn't build a time machine for the villain.  

Edited May 20, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Moya the Leviathan]

(Does anyone else think we need a new grammatical tense or mood for dealing with time travel paradoxes? Constructing a sentence in the, I don't know, putative mode? temporal aorist? -- might have a way of making events like "Eobard Thawne never will have happened" seem less migraine-inducing. I think. Wait -- probably not.)

 

From the most comprehensive (although not actually in print) Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.

 

It will tell you, for instance, how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it. The event will be described differently according to whether you are talking about it from the standpoint of your own natural time, from a time in the further future, or a time in the further past and is further complicated by the possibility of conducting conversations while you are actually traveling from one time to another with the intention of becoming your own mother or father.

Most readers get as far as the Future Semiconditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up; and in fact in later additions of the book all pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy skips lightly over this tangle of academic abstraction, pausing only to note that the term "Future Perfect" has been abandoned since it was discovered not to be.

[FurryFury]

One thing about Eddie's death - why exactly did Barry attack Wells all of a sudden? If he didn't, Eddie would still be alive! There wasn't any reason to attack him! I mean, if he learned that Wells had some sort of absolutely evil plan and he shouldn't be allowed to go back to the future, it would have been one thing. But he didn't! Barry not only screwed up by going back in the first place, he also screwed up by attacking Wells. For all he knew if he let Wells go, a future version of Barry would be there to deal with him anyway.

[Xenith22]

One thing about Eddie's death - why exactly did Barry attack Wells all of a sudden? If he didn't, Eddie would still be alive! There wasn't any reason to attack him! I mean, if he learned that Wells had some sort of absolutely evil plan and he shouldn't be allowed to go back to the future, it would have been one thing. But he didn't! Barry not only screwed up by going back in the first place, he also screwed up by attacking Wells. For all he knew if he let Wells go, a future version of Barry would be there to deal with him anyway.

I'm assuming it was an emotional decision based on just watching Eobard murder his mother in person and watching her die.  In the heat of the moment he was no longer content with the possibility that Eobard would be let off easy by being allowed to return to the future unpunished (which honestly never made a ton of sense to begin with even assuming best case scenario of Thawne keeping his word and returning to his own time without stopping anywhere else and altering the future to his advantage along the way.).

Edited May 20, 2015 by Xenith22

[Impish Dragon]

I'm not sure what it says about me, but during what should have been a sweet/romantic scene (the wedding), all I could think was "Did Stein go visit with his wife?"  Cuz really it seems totally unfair that Ronnie gets to marry the woman he loves, but Dr. Stein hasn't gotten a chance to at least call the woman he loves. 

[FurryFury]

Yeah! I couldn't care less about Ronnie and Caitlyn, but poor Stein there all alone, sniff. I hope his wife will recur on LOT.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well, I liked it. No, I loved it; for the scenes between Barry and Henry, Barry and Nora, Barry and Iris...

 

I just don't see Barry as the huge jerk that most do. I find some of his actions questionable, yes, but on the whole, and this is probably due to Grant Gustin's portrayal, I find him so adorkable! (Yes, I know that's not a real word).

 

I mean, to segue way a bit, we fault the writers for doing such a hack-job and sucking at how they write, or rather, don't write for Iris (which they are), so consensus sometimes tends to be, we can't criticize Iris; yet when it's Barry, it's okay to call him out and criticize him, yet not throw it at the writers feet for doing this.

 

Back to the show.

 

The most AWESOME moment for me was when Flash came shooting out and crashed into Wells in his bubble of a time machine. I cheered. It was great.

 

And I loved, loved, how when Present Flash gets to his mother, Future Flash sees him and shakes his head "no" along with his hand out, like "stop, don't do this." I can't quite put it into words, but I really loved that moment.

 

I don't try and understand how the time travel works because then I'll just give myself a headache.

 

Frankly, I hated that blonde wig on Caitlin to show her as Killer Frost.  I was hoping for the blue/white hair, actually, from the 'toons.

 

I'll have to rewatch because I totally missed seeing the Flash Museum and Hawk Girl.

 

I can't wait for Season Two!

Edited May 21, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[Primetimer]

'Wells' urges Barry on one last time.

Read the story

[romantic idiot]

Looking at all these posts I realise I watched the episode wrong. i thought that Barry had no intention of saving his mom, he just wanted to see her again, and say goodbye. That's why he was already crying. The future Flash when he shook his head, was not telling Barry not to save her, he was telling Barry not yet. So Barry waited, knowing what was happening, and then went to say goodbye. (And maybe plant some evidence to save his Dad at a later time).

So I was surprised to see the consensus here that Barry did intend to save her from the beginning. Interesting.

[saber5055]

Eddie is the biggest damn hero ever. The only way to destroy Eobard Thawne was so make sure he was never born. That was such a shock. It also made my allergies act up like crazy.

 

 

The hell, Eddie. There IS such a thing as a vasectomy.

 

What was with Barry going through all that angst, then time traveling to just watch his mom die? The hell, Barry.

 

No Wells = No show for me, so I guess it's goodbye.

 

 

"And thanks for all the fish." Gotta love Cisco quoting Hitchhiker's Guide.

Edited May 20, 2015 by saber5055