S05.E04: The Sons Of The Harpy

[Independent George]

I don't know why this is such a point of contention for folks, considering that two of the revenge proposals offered by the Sand Snakes in the book were to a) murder eight-year-old King Tommen, and b) burn Oldtown to the ground. While it's true that Ellaria wasn't down with getting revenge in the books, there were certainly some prominent Dornish who thought that indiscriminate death and destruction was the appropriate response to Oberyn's death.

 

For me, it's because we saw in the books a wide range of reactions and counterarguments from different people, including Ellaria's wholesale rejection of vengeance and Doran's admonition that she understood Oberyn better than anyone. I understand Ellaria being a composite of multiple sand snakes, but the fact that the only opposing view we've seen expressed comes from Doran's thirty-second scene, plus Oberyn's own words in S4, makes her a lot less nuanced and sympathetic.

[Minneapple]

I really wish we could have gotten a chance to hear the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, but it makes sense that it would be cut, and now it'd be weird.

 

I can see them doing a Big Flashback Episode next season in which they reveal Jon's parentage. They could do the tourney at Harrenhal and include the Knight of the Laughing Tree story in there.

[Avaleigh]

I guess I'll be the resident whiner. One of the worst hours of GoT I've seen, particularly after the strong episode three. 

 

Where to begin?

 

• Cersei suggesting the arming of the faith militant instead of having it suggested to her is the kind of small deviation that makes very little sense to anyone. That the High Sparrow never even considered it and seems almost taken aback at the suggestion undermines his ambition and intelligence, and it presents Cersei as a student of history (in which case she should have also been aware of why they were dismantled in the first place, and how difficult and protracted that process was).
• How does having Loras imprisoned get Cersei what she wants (I.E. Margaery out of the picture)? All it really accomplishes is inflaming the situation. Cersei is not exactly a master statesman but she can at least keep her various goals sorted.
• Faith Militant seemed a bit comically over the top.
• Jon/Melisandre scene was decent but seemed a bit heavy on the boobsposition. Melisandre is still very much in camp Stannis at this juncture, so "Shh we don't need to tell him" seemed OOC.
• Sons of the Harpy staging guerrilla type ambushes for Unsullied = good. Those ambushes taking the form of pitched battles in narrow alleys where their advantage in numbers is nullified and the Unsullied can best make use of tight formations and spear/shield = bad. Why not arrows, Sons of the Harpy? Why not traps? Guerrilla warfare works best when you're not dying at a 10 to 1 ratio. Just some helpful tips.
• Sand Snakes came off as stiff and pointlessly nasty. Why are we killing Myrcella now, instead of crowning her? Ellaria comes off as spiteful and capricious as a result, at odds with her season 4 portrayal.
• Sansa/Littlefinger is so far off the reservation at this point I can't even be upset at it. At least they worked in a nice Rhaegar story, delivered in Aidan Gillen's best scenery-chomping stage whisper.
• What on earth was Barristan Selmy doing wandering the streets? Was it his lunch break? He's literally the ONLY QUEENSGUARD.

 

I agree with most of these points. I especially agree about not getting why Cersei would suggest bringing back the Faith Militant as opposed to having it be the HS's idea. 

 

Agreed that the arrest accomplishes nothing from Cersei's perspective apart from upsetting Margaery. 

 

Re: the Faith Militant seeming over the top--

To me it was the super dramatic music. It got a small eyeroll from me. 

 

I much prefer the plot to crown Myrcella as opposed to wanting to kill her. I can't see one reason why I'm supposed to be rooting for Ellaria and the Sand Snakes to torture and kill Myrcella because they have issues with a dead member of House Lannister. 

 

I liked the talk of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

Lmao, I was wondering the same thing about why Barristan was just wandering around on his own. It's not like this guy goes to the market or brothels or anything like that. He was just walking around so that he'd be available to jump in once he realized that a fight was going on.

Once they heard about Jaime's arrival in Dorne, wouldn't a much better plan be to capture/kill him and turn around and accuse the Lannisters of trying declare war on Dorne? He's a much bigger prize than Myrcella is.

This at least makes more sense to me although it would still be killing or capturing a person who didn't have anything to do with the death of Oberyn or Elia and her children. It's only going to bring pain to a person who also had nothing to do with causing the death of Oberyn or Elia and her children. 

[fantique]

I've always known that Shireen is doomed to die, but boy, with her the showrunners really like to stick that knife in and twist it hard and break the hilt off, don't they? Further, I've always assumed that Shireen's death will come by Stannis sticking his sword into her heart because fucking Mel will tell him that that's what's necessary, and having this sweet scene where he basically tells her how much he loves her just confirms it. It's never really that clear with BookStannis whether he really cares about his daughter or not.

I agree that Shireen will die (the cuter the she is the surer her death is), but I don't think it will be by Stannis' hand.

 

Ok... So after thinking about this episode a bit more, some things are not holding up.

1) How is the war for life against death fought away at Winterfell and not, you know, at the freaking Wall where incarnations of death are threatening to kill them all? They should just have Mel stay at the Wall like in the books and we would've seen her working her way up to using Jon. This makes so little sense and it was really the easier stuff to adapt.

2) The Tommen stuff didn't make sense either, he couldn't just wait until the HS was finished praying? That was convoluted. They should've had a line that maybe the HS is praying all day and he has to come back or something, otherwise it's just stupid.

3) I find it hard to believe that the Unsullied got killed as quickly as they did. These are hardcore soldiers who are made to fight and win against worse odds. I call BS. They had lances and shields VS the Sons of the Harpy only had knives and masks. Dafuq?

4) The Ellaria/Sand Snakes stuff makes less and less sense as we learn more. She was there, why would she think that Oberyn was some kind of random murder victim, he played with his prey in a freaking trial by combat. Too ridiculous. The Dorne plot is really not working. So full of stupid and this might be the biggest case of bad casting on the show. I only like Nymeria. Obara is closer to the book but the actress' delivery was way too awkward. Tyene was such a non-entity...

 

On to the good stuff.

-Best scene: Shireen and Stannis melted my heart and made me fear for Shireen.

-Love watching Cersei dig her own grave. HS is playing her like a fiddle and it's glorious. How does she NOT think about the fact that Lancel is part of the FM?

-Like that, although that had the subtlety of Hodor, they are drawing the viewers' attention to the fact that "Hey! The whole Jon Snow's mama thing doesn't make any fucking sense. Reconsider all information. Also, Rhaegar was totes a lover, not a fighter. Wink, Wink."

-The small council scene was awesome. Love that Meryn Trant is a pretty, pretty present all wrapped up for No One to open up.

-The sequence of Lancel being branded was quite ominous and the horror of the raids came across really well. Poor Loras.

 

RME moments:

-Jorah punching Tyrion came across as him being a little bitch who can't take the truth. It's so lame because he kidnapped Tyrion to bring him where he was going anyway, it's just all kind of pointless right now. They should have just had him join Varys and Tyrion or trailing them or something that is less idiotic than kidnapping someone to bring them to the place they wanted to go anyway. Disliked their road trip in the books and it's no better in the show, hopefully it will be shorter thhough.

[Dev F]

For me, it's because we saw in the books a wide range of reactions and counterarguments from different people, including Ellaria's wholesale rejection of vengeance and Doran's admonition that she understood Oberyn better than anyone. I understand Ellaria being a composite of multiple sand snakes, but the fact that the only opposing view we've seen expressed comes from Doran's thirty-second scene, plus Oberyn's own words in S4, makes her a lot less nuanced and sympathetic.

 

I dunno, I actually find the way the book lays out the scenario quite tiresome -- in that the Sand Snakes lay out three elaborate plans of revenge that only differ as to strategy rather than philosophy. It makes sense to me that the show would distill it into two distinct perspectives: Ellaria is for revenge and Doran is for peace.

 

And it's not like the pro-revenge view has gotten a whole lot more attention than the anti-revenge perspective. Until this episode, both points of view were expressed in the same thirty-second scene. I assume that we'll get more of Doran's side of things soon enough, but I don't expect them to be granted equal time in every single episode.

 

But, honestly, the main reason I have a hard time getting too upset about the Dorne storyline is that I don't think the books handle it well at all, and I don't care at all about any of its eight million badly differentiated characters, so I see very little of value that's at risk of being screwed up. If it simply avoids being a completely pointless slog, that's already a step up in my opinion.

 

I much prefer the plot to crown Myrcella as opposed to wanting to kill her. I can't see one reason why I'm supposed to be rooting for Ellaria and the Sand Snakes to torture and kill Myrcella because they have issues with a dead member of House Lannister. 

 

Do we know that the plan is to kill Myrcella? All Ellaria says is that they need her to start a war; I assume that the plot will end up being more complex than just hacking and slashing.

[fantique]

Just random bitching I forgot to include. 

Seriously show? Wardeness? Warden is not a gendered word anyway! It would be like changing the word doctor for women, just don't. These are writers, right?

 PS: just bitching about the grammar. I do think it logical that Sansa would hold that position of power as the last known heir. I think that Stannis learnt from Lyanna Mormont that he can't put anyone but an actual Stark in charge if he wants their support.

Edited May 5, 2015 by fantique

[Oscirus]

I love that Cersei exposed the hell out of her son by arming those religious zealots.

I'd probably feel for Margery if it wasn't for the fact that she sucks at the non seduction part of the game. How the hell does she let Cersei make all these decisions on the council? One would figure that she'd sit in on the meetings or at least urge Tommen to do so.

 

So that's two out of the four characters that didn't die in the book. I have a feeling one of the stannises will be the third, but the fourth person should be interesting.

 

Two different stories about Rhaegar in the same episode? Both dealing with the misconceptions and the realities of his actions?  I don't imagine that happened by accident

 

Time for my way out there speculation. So they were talking about how Shirleen got Greyscale from a doll given to her by her father. Who else in this series was shown getting a foreign doll from her father? hmm. JK but still seems like a strange coincidence.

 

I assume those fighting pits are getting opened up in the very near future.

 

That captain was a very stupid man. He deserved what he got.

 

Of course Tyrion would figure out who Jorah was.

 

[placate]

It's just kinda weird to see being gay being persecuted to the same degree as drinking alcohol.  I get that TPTB are branching off from the book, but this is still in a time period where it was healthier to drink beer than water.  Poor tv!Loras is not as awesome as his book counterpart.  I'm actually curious about this whole Dorne storyline.  They've turned the sandsnakes into a ruthless group who might kill Myrcella at the drop of a hat if it pisses off Cersei.

[heisey]

Yeah, the Big Reveal is coming soon.  In fact that may be another reason Sansa is at Winterfell...she might just discover something one day in those crypts she's been visiting.

I thought I saw Sansa pick up something in the crypt, before Littlefinger arrived.  But it was too dark, of course, to see what it was, or even to be sure she picked something up.

 

Once they heard about Jaime's arrival in Dorne, wouldn't a much better plan be to capture/kill him and turn around and accuse the Lannisters of trying declare war on Dorne? He's a much bigger prize than Myrcella is.

Actually, I think Myrcella is a bigger prize than Jaime.  This is a society where alliances are made, and the balance of power is determined, by marriages.  Myrcella is marriageable, as long as people don't believe (or choose not to believe) she's the daughter of Cersei and Jaime.  Jaime isn't going to marry anyone, because he's a Kingsguard, among other reasons.

Edited May 4, 2015 by heisey

[jeansheridan]

I think the pacing of The Sparrows was badly done. Cersei arms them and one scene later they are running amuck? And Loras doesn't take out even one of them?

The Sparrows needed two eps.

Did anyone else think it was funny that Jaime and Tyrion appeared to be traveling on the same stretch of water? All the boat scenes have a sameness to them. I think they are filmed on the same bit of water in the quarry. Just looked funny to me.

Hated the cheap way we met the Sand Snakes. They feel like after thoughts.

I don't think Shireen is doomed. In fact I think Shireen might be Arya if Arya' s life had not gone to crap. Yes her mother is crazy but we know Gilly and Sam like her. Davos would kill for her. And how long can Jon Snow resist a substitute sister? Mel would be deeply unwise to threaten her.

Shireen and Brandon Stark if Bran gets away from his tree. The new power couple. Or Rickon.

The other reason why I think Shireen lives is that she is a sneaky survivor. She secretly taught Davos to read and saved his life. She overcame her disease. She hasn't let her beastly mother crush her. She pays attention and learns. She talks to people. She knows her history. She has some of Sansa' s skills at being quiet, blending in. But she is open with people and that is charming. I think maybe she deserves Brienne to protect her. Although Brienne does have a crap record at protecting people. Pod better watch himself.

Edited May 4, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Helena Dax]

So, does this mean Ser Barristan is better than most Unsullied? I’ll be very sorry if he's dead, but frankly, most of all I’m disappointed. I thought they were the best of the best. I can't believe they lost  their balls for this.

 

Poor ser Loras! I already hate those fucking sparrows.  That’s the reason I never could enjoy Cerseis’s walk of shame. As much as I despise her, I didn’t want to see  her punished for her sex life by some disgusting creepy religious fanatics.

 

Tyrion’s lucky ser Jorah just punched him. He should remember what happened to Jaime.  Otoh, that was almost Sherlock Holmes’s level deductions, I’m impressed.

 

Poor Sansa too. It seems obvious now that Littlefinger doesn’t know what kind of man Ramsay is. I noticed his face when Sansa said that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna; he had heard another versions. Does this mean R+L=J is going to be a thing?

 

It was interesting to  hear what ser Barristan had to say about Rhaegar. I think he wouldn’t speak of Rhaegar so  fondly if he had raped Lyanna. And Daenerys was delighted to hear about  him.

 

Loved the scene with Stannis and Shireen. He isn’t a saint and he’s made a lot of mistakes, but there’s good in him. Tywin always hated Tyrion for not being a “proper” Lannister; Stannis loves his daughter.  I don’t know if Melissandre has plans for  her, but I don’t see him letting her burn Shireen.

 

The Sand Snakes didn’t impress me much, but I want to give them another chance. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Helena Dax

[ElizaD]

I thought Pryce was great casting when I heard the news and I'm loving him in the role. The High Sparrow is so kindly, yet at the same time there's this feeling that he knows exactly what he's doing and he's playing a game that Cersei can't see. I'm really interested in how the show will handle him arresting Cersei: I hope he'll continue to have the same general tone of kindness even as he has people tortured and shamed instead of starting to make obvious lunatic faces. That would make him more formidable than the robotic bad guy-ness of Lancel and the other brothers.

 

If the showrunners have tried to make Shireen extra lovable to make her possible death extra painful, in that, at least, they've succeeded brilliantly. What a wonderful scene. Stannis gets to be human while still being Stannis and Shireen gets yet another scene where she's just darling.

 

Even though this Tommen is playing by an older actor than season 2 Bran, he seems so much less lordly and competent.

 

Rolling my eyes at Dorne. It's such a B-movie with Jaime and Bronn's incredible bro adventures and a collection of hot dangerous women ("lemme kill the guy who sold me information to show how badass I am and to... ensure no one wants to sell me information again?"). But the place certainly looks great.

[Winnief]

I thought Pryce was great casting when I heard the news and I'm loving him in the role. The High Sparrow is so kindly, yet at the same time there's this feeling that he knows exactly what he's doing and he's playing a game that Cersei can't see. I'm really interested in how the show will handle him arresting Cersei: I hope he'll continue to have the same general tone of kindness even as he has people tortured and shamed instead of starting to make obvious lunatic faces. That would make him more formidable than the robotic bad guy-ness of Lancel and the other brothers.

 

 

Agree that Pryce is killing it as the High Sparrow...as I mentioned in the Cersei thread, the joke is that Cersei clearly believes she has the upper hand intellectually speaking in that dynamic which is going to make it all the more delicious.

[Boundary]

The worst episode of GoT. Ever.

 

The first season tightly followed the books and remains the best season they've done. Now, the books have thousands of characters and dozens of storylines, which can't all the translated to the screen. But streamlining the story means putting in as much care and effort as GRRM when he put the damn thing together in the first place. Season 2 faltered a bit, particularly Dany's Qarth arc but they largely stayed on course with the successful introduction of Stannis and his party. Tyrion's KL tenure as Hand was actually splendidly done. Red flags were flashing, though, with Talisa and Shae's characterisation but the story stayed on course. Season 3 and the red wedding and Dany's "dracarys" moment in Astapor still proved what a potent story this is. In season 4, I feel the wheels started to come off a little bit, particularly Jon's pacing and the weirdly uninformative Bran's arc, it was strange how much was cut out from the books. Sansa's pro-activeness was also taken away from her and Tyrion's whitewashing was in full swing. But the direction was still intact, all the high watermarks were hit, the Red Viper was a particular success.

 

Then came season 5. I think D&D believe the books at this stage are so bad and that the cultural significance of the show is down to them. I don't know why GRRM stopped writing episodes but I can easily imagine it as a way of distancing his books from this product. All the big deviations are wrong: Jaime and Bronn in Dorne makes little sense (in this episode Bronn states why the plan is idiotic and Jaime's answer: "It has to be me. I don't want to start a war." Then the kidnapping of Prince of Dorne's ward by the King's uncle/father/commander of the freaking Kingsguard won't start the damn war?); the faith militant as some kind of religious, murderous zealots, persecuting all those poor gays, who in case you've forgotten (how could we?) count Loras as one of them; Meereen's politics rival that of KL in the books but here it's just reduced to some one note mess, killing Ser Barry was the worst decision they could've made to that story (how could the guy wander around without armour in a city facing uprising?) but the point of that death, as we'll see, is to clear the decks for the one and only Tyrion, ugh; but the absolute worst decision this show has ever made is LF marrying Sansa off to Ramsay (LF knows that Stannis will attack Winterfell but doesn't know about Ramsay's proclivities? How about those flayed bodies hanging all over the place? Anyway, if Stannis will attack, then why give up Sansa to him, why not hang back in the Vale and then produce a Stark heir once Winterfell is taken?)

 

Anyway, the only way to salvage this season is Arya and maybe Jon and Dany's big action sequences. I was so looking forward to the Sand Snakes and Dorne, particularly Doran's long term manoeuvrings but Jaime's presence has put paid to that. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are now all portrayed as murderous, braying for a kid's blood so that Jaime is seen as heroic, how can you not? I was looking forward to seeing Dany struggle with a rebellion within her walls, whilst her enemies gather without, not to mention fighting an epidemic disease and a collapsing economy. How about Jon being caught between a hard place and rock, letting in the wildlings against the wishes of the NW, all the while trying to cope with misbehaving Stannis' men, a difficult Selyse, a king and a beguiling prophecy from Mel. Both these stories have been flattened, presumably so that the whole thing can wrap up within 7 seasons. I guess I should be grateful they're in the right direction, roughly.

[cambridgeguy]

 

I can see them doing a Big Flashback Episode next season in which they reveal Jon's parentage. They could do the tourney at Harrenhal and include the Knight of the Laughing Tree story in there.

The tournament itself is redundant - we already know that Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna and took her.  The key information is what happened at the Tower of Joy, which means Howland Reed needs to show up and spill the beans. 

 

Does Jaime know about Shae being with Tywin in the show?  He's being pretty unsympathetic if he does, especially since he's the guy who pushed a kid out a window.  That should rank higher on the punishment scale, especially since Tywin was all for executing Tyrion.

[Haleth]

The Stannis/Shireen relationship is weird because you never get the sense as to whether he loves her or not.  We know he doesn't want his daughter to marry an "abomination" like Tommen and that he is very mindful of her rights.  But without the POV, it's tough to know for sure what he thinks of her.

We'd like to think he loves her unconditionally, but that love seems to be mixed with a bit of guilt for giving her the infected doll.  Poor Shireen, it's not likely she'll survive the war.  Still, the fact that she is "tainted" is what may save her.  I'm surprised Mel would consider her an adequate sacrifice since she is marked by a hideous disease.  (As noted by other posters, Jorah contracting greyscale in place of Griff sounds pretty reasonable.)

 

Oh, Cersei.  You are so transparent in ordering Mace to go to Braavos, but poor Ser Oaff has no clue.

 

Last night I posted that I guessed Loras would be arrested instead of Margaery.  It certainly can't go down the way it does in the book since Marg and Tommen consummated their marriage.  There is no physical proof that Marg is unfaithful unless Cersei can find a Kettleblack(back?) to lie for her.

 

I understand Ellaria being a composite of multiple sand snakes, but the fact that the only opposing view we've seen expressed comes from Doran's thirty-second scene, plus Oberyn's own words in S4, makes her a lot less nuanced and sympathetic.

I'm wondering if the show will have Doran take Arianne's place in wanting to promote Myrcella as the true queen.  I'd rather see him be at odds with Ellaria and spell out his plan than be so passive as in the book.  

Edited May 4, 2015 by Haleth

[Advance35]

I can see why the showrunners went with a vengance driven Ellaria.  She knows exactly what happened at the Kings Landing Trial by Combat.   But she lost the love of her life, she doesn't care that it came out that way partly by his own decision making.  She lost him and House Lannister continues to skate on by despite all the House does to others.

 

I'm super curious about what's ahead for House Tyrell.  I'm now questioning whether we will get the Queen Trials.   I admit in the book I got caught up in the chaos and excitment and scandal of both Queen Margaery and Queen Cersei on trial for their very lives BUT if they are going to both make it out of the trials VIA the book, I can understand why the showrunners chose not to pour so much into it.   Could we get another suprise and unplanned execution by a High Sparrow run amuck only  this time the executed is Loras?   

 

Mace being sent to Bravos with Meryn Trant (I now assume he will fall to the Hand of the King curse in TWOW).

 

I know many people have issues with it BUT I'm really enjoying LF and Sansa.   They are in so over their head and have know idea.  LF is a complete cockaroach but I assume that's how he survives.   While Sansa is left holding the bag aka having to stay as a "guest" of House Bolton.   Liked how she taunted LF with the fact that the next time they meet she is likely to be a married woman.   I also now question what will happen to Sansa if Stannis wins Winterfell.  He insisted Jaimie be referred to as a Knight ("whatever else he is") and Davos can attest that Stannis believes in punishments for a crime no matter the reason, Sansa is a Lannister, wanted for regicide, was peripherally involved with the death of Lady Regent of House Arryn, and is now conspiring with Littlefinger and betrothed to Ramsay Bolton.   Stannis may not be pro-Sansa.

[Stardancer Supreme]

Just random bitching I forgot to include. 

Seriously show? Wardeness? Warden is not a gendered word anyway! It would be like changing the word doctor for women, just don't. These are writers, right?

 

Yes. This!  Plus how likely is Stannis going to let a woman rule the North, Stark or not?  I don't see Sansa being strong enough to keep control over a House, let alone a good section of the Seven Kingdoms.

[jcin617]

I enjoyed this episode;  then again I've stopped comparing the show to the books directly because it's diverging too much story-wise (some of it, for the better, in my opinion).  Now I'm just comparing it to itself for the most part.

 

Plus how likely is Stannis going to let a woman rule the North, Stark or not?

I think very likely.  Stannis believes in rules and absent Jon agreeing to his terms, Sansa is (as far as he knows) the rightful heir to the North.    It would be rather hypocritical for him to claim the Iron Throne by rights then deny it to Sansa.

 

Something tells me, from that catacomb scene, that Littlefinger may know the truth about R and L.   When Sansa mentioned Rhaeger kidnapping and raping Lyanna, Littlefinger had A Look.  Isn't that when he told Sansa they should discuss it "away from the ears of the dead"?   

Edited May 4, 2015 by jcin617

[DigitalCount]

That's the interesting thing. Everyone wants someone who'd have known about it to come out and talk about it, but is it possible that Baelish could figure out RLJ on his own? If anyone without every single piece could figure it out it's Littlefinger.

[Stardancer Supreme]

 

Something tells me, from that catacomb scene, that Littlefinger may know the truth about R and L.   When Sansa mentioned Rhaeger kidnapping and raping Lyanna, Littlefinger had A Look.  Isn't that when he told Sansa they should discuss it "away from the ears of the dead"?

 

From the way the stories are falling, it may have been that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have fallen in love.  Still, he wasn't that swell of a guy because he openly cheated on his wife and snatched a woman from her intended husband.  Littlefinger probably thought, "Ah. So that the way the Starks spun this particular tale."   

[Constantinople]

I guess I'll be the resident whiner. One of the worst hours of GoT I've seen, particularly after the strong episode three. 

 

Where to begin?

• Cersei suggesting the arming of the faith militant instead of having it suggested to her is the kind of small deviation that makes very little sense to anyone. That the High Sparrow never even considered it and seems almost taken aback at the suggestion undermines his ambition and intelligence, and it presents Cersei as a student of history (in which case she should have also been aware of why they were dismantled in the first place, and how difficult and protracted that process was).

Cersei suggesting that the faith militant be armed shows how incredibly arrogant and short sighted she is. It doesn't present Cersei as a student of history other than as the most cursory sort.

I think the High Sparrow understands his history better than Cersei, which is why he was taken aback. He was the one who pointed out the Targaryens disarmed the FM. Nor do I think his intelligence or ambition have been undermined. So far everything's been going his way and he hasn't even had to ask for anything explicitly.

 

• How does having Loras imprisoned get Cersei what she wants (I.E. Margaery out of the picture)? All it really accomplishes is inflaming the situation. Cersei is not exactly a master statesman but she can at least keep her various goals sorted.

It creates a rift between Margaery and Tommen and puts Margaery on the defensive. From Cersei's view, instead of plotting against Margaery, Margaery now must spend her time freeing her brother.

It's not an accident that Cersei appointed Mace Master of Coin, shipped him off to Braavos, and and only then re-armed the FM and dropped the dime on Loras to the High Sparrow. Having the FM do her dirty work gives her plausible deniability, not just to Tommen but to the Tyrells.

Which isn't to saw it's a good idea. It's a stupid idea, but it's the kind of clever, self-destructive stupid idea that is Cersei's hallmark.

 

• Faith Militant seemed a bit comically over the top.

Sadly, compared to real world religious fanatics, the FM seem quite restrained.

[DigitalCount]

I've seen this sentiment before, and I am not entirely sure why a group of people referred to as the Faith Militant would be less, well, militant than they appear to be. Lancel, for his part, appeared to be a peaceful monk-ish sort in his first scene as a Sparrow, so I just thought they ramped up their tactics once they got some real juice.

As I said before, it's been a while (is that my new catchphrase?) but it just seems to make sense that they're a bit fanatical, given that they are an off-the-beaten-path offshoot of a mainstream religion calling for sweeping changes in the culture. Like the Ellaria issue, I don't have a big problem with it.

[mac123x]

I really had to laugh at Jorah stealng a fishing boat for the trip to Meereen.  Granted, the show hasn't established how far Volantis is from Meereen, but in the books it's a long ocean voyage and requires a significant detour around the Smoking Sea, and there aren't any ports to put in for supplies..  Hope you stocked up on drinking water, Jorah.  I guess they'll put in at the ruins of Valirya for supplies and encounter the Stone Men who live there (instead of Chroyane).

 

Agreed that the arrest accomplishes nothing from Cersei's perspective apart from upsetting Margaery

 

It temporarily drives a wedge between Marge and Tommen.  Cercei is being short-sighted, trying to drive them apart.  Long-term, though, it's more likely to bring Tommen even more under Margaery's control, since he's smitten with her, enjoys their rampant sex-life, and will do whatever he needs to do to get her back.  He needs a better idea on how to get Loras out of prison, and since Cercei isn't being helpful, he'll have to go to other people for ideas.  Enter one of the best schemers in the country, Lady Olenna....

 

It's just kinda weird to see being gay being persecuted to the same degree as drinking alcohol.  I get that TPTB are branching off from the book, but this is still in a time period where it was healthier to drink beer than water. 

 

The FM going all Carrie Nation took me right out of the scene because of that.  It was written assuming the viewers are morons and can't distinguish different varieties of religious extremism.  It was especially jarring after Cercei's conversation with the HS about wine, and his admiting that he doesn't drink because he doesn't like the taste.

 

I thought I saw Sansa pick up something in the crypt, before Littlefinger arrived.  But it was too dark, of course, to see what it was, or even to be sure she picked something up.

 

It was the feather that King Robert put in her effigy's hand back in the pilot.  They showed that scene in the "previously on" segment.

[Maximum Taco]

So, does this mean Ser Barristan is better than most Unsullied? I’ll be very sorry if he's dead, but frankly, most of all I’m disappointed. I thought they were the best of the best. I can't believe they lost  their balls for this.

 

In this situation yes.

 

Dany is foolishly misusing the unsullied. They are not shock troops or knights to be dispatched to patrol the streets. They're an army. Their stength lies in fighting in the open with their brothers next to them. As a phalanx they are probably the best army there is. As small squads their effectiveness diminishes considerably. There's a reason why the Masters of Astapor only sell them in groups of 100 or 1000, beyond the worry that they will mingle with other slaves.

 

In the confined streets of Meereen, they're not much better than any ordinary soldier who is trained in the use of arms. In fact they're probably worse since they are trained to use the spear as their primary weapon. A great weapon when facing enemy riders on horseback in open fields, which would be a common occurance in Slaver's Bay near the Dothraki Sea, but very poor in confined quarters, like the city streets, facing guerrilla warriors.

 

Barristan on the other hand is trained in multiple different kinds of combat, including single combat and one vs many, he can adapt his tactics to improve his odds when the situation changes. The unsullied have trouble with that.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[patchwork]

When Sansa picked up the feather (I think it was a feather but the lighting was bad) by Lyanna's statue I thought maybe it was something left by her brothers when they were hiding in the crypts back in season one but a feather doesn't make any sense so I'm not sure what that's about. 

 

The R+L=J hints are adding up and I wont be surprised if it's revealed later this season.

 

"You known nothing Jon Snow." That was just cold.  

 

Even in the books the Sand Snakes didn't do much for me but that storyline ended on an intriguing note so I'm willing to see where the show takes them. Though I agree it would make things more interesting on the show if Doran becomes the one leading the charge to crown Myrsella.

 

I hope Loras is being held by the Faith instead of instead of rather than in addition to. Cersei being imprisoned while Margaery and probably Olenna work to keep her in there while taking further control of Kings Landing sounds better to me than what the books gave us. Plus with Margaery and Tommen consummating their marriage what could they accuse her of?

 

Maybe that's how the High Sparrow will lure Cersei into the Sept, she's there dropping hints about Marg's so called immortality and he traps her using her own words. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by patchwork

[Dev F]

Cersei suggesting that the faith militant be armed shows how incredibly arrogant and short sighted she is. It doesn't present Cersei as a student of history other than as the most cursory sort.

 

It's also essential to her plan in a way it wasn't in the books. It doesn't make sense for her to conceive an elaborate scheme to drive a wedge between Tommen and Margaery that depends on someone else coincidentally deciding to reconstitute a long-dead religious order.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Dev F

[SFoster21]

Maybe I'm just old, but every scene seems to be shot in the dark. I'm always straining to see.

And where is the snow? In the book, winter is here and Winterfell is buried in snow. No one even discusses winter.

Edited May 4, 2015 by SFoster21

[Fen]

I much prefer the plot to crown Myrcella as opposed to wanting to kill her. I can't see one reason why I'm supposed to be rooting for Ellaria and the Sand Snakes to torture and kill Myrcella because they have issues with a dead member of House Lannister

 

This is a real problem for me.  Oberyn's death was so horrible that it should have been easy to set up a real conflict in the viewer: wanting revenge for the well-liked Oberyn, but also rooting for Jaime.  However, the Sand Snakes are so needlessly unpleasant that there's no tension there at all.  I just want them defeated - which totally nullifies the Oberyn revenge thing.

 

Tywin must be spinning so hard in his grave at Cersei ceding power to the fanatics that I'm surprised he hasn't drilled his way back out. 

 

Found the anti-gay angle from the fanatics pretty uncomfortable viewing, to be honest. 

 

There's a lot of plotlines going on now - and I think that his led to some storylines being painted with pretty broad strokes.  It's not enough to subtly suggests that arming zealots is a bad thing - you have to show full-on violence and persecution.  You don't get to see the complexities of Dorne - just that they are. out. for. revenge.  I can understand that it must be horrendously difficult to condense complex material - but if you lose too much then things get simplistic, and the joy of this story is in the shades of grey.

[Maximum Taco]

It's also essential to her plan in a way it wasn't in the books. It doesn't make sense for her to conceive an elaborate scheme to drive a wedge between Tommen and Margaery that depends on someone else coincidentally deciding to reconstitute a long-dead religious order.

 

Another problem with her plan is it makes Margaery more powerful then she already is. You'd think Cersei would want to avoid that at all costs.

 

With Loras imprisoned and Mace (presumably) headed to his death via Meryn Trant, that makes Margaery the defacto Lady of Highgarden, she'll be the actual Lady of Highgarden if Loras is executed for his crime of being gay, which is suddenly a crime now.

 

With Mace as Lord, he could be manipulated and effected, really all it seemed to take was a little flattery and he'd acquiese to almost anything. Does she think dealing with Lady Margaery will make things easier? If Margaery was the Lady of Highgarden in the books she would've taken her forces to the Shield Islands to defend the realm when the ironborn attacked leaving King's Landing ripe and undefended.

 

Good work Cersei, you just gave your biggest enemy sole authority over the largest army and biggest treasury in the realm. Great Queening!

Edited May 4, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Ambrosefolly]

Even though this Tommen is playing by an older actor than season 2 Bran, he seems so much less lordly and competent.

Which is good on the actor's part. While Tommen seems to be extremely kind, his upbringing is quite different. King Robert didn't bother ruling the Seven Kingdoms, and completely indulged in sex, food and alcohol, and left the job to Jon Arynn and then Ned. Cersei is a power hungry narcissist, and his older brother Joffrey terrorized him instead of guided him and Pycelle is his maester. And I believe Tywin would have taken advantage of Tommen's inexperience and left him out of learning to rule the realm.   

 

Bran was raised by a father that took his job as Warden of North and Lord of Winterfell seriously, even if it meant doing unpleasant things (which he taken to witness), he was guided by his Jon and Robb who internalized a lot of Ned's moral code and given lessons and advised regularly by Luwin. Plus, he isn't a product of incest, but a true born Stark.

 

On a side, while I think Varys is right about not wanting a ruler that is in service to the dark powers, Stannis is doing a much better job of rising his heir apparent, as he as figured he will not having anymore children and Shireen is being tutored to be a ruling queen and not someone's wife.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[nodorothyparker]

I'm trying to remain openminded, but so far the Dorne story isn't working for me.  The Sandsnakes are awful cardboard caricatures of badass fighting women and poorly acted to boot.  Ellaria continues to not make any sense.  I'm really hoping we're going to see Doran be a voice of reason and advance the idea of crowning Myrcella as a rival claimant to the Iron Throne because otherwise this makes people who have a legitimate longtime grievance with the Lannisters look completely petty and bloodthirsty for no reason other than they got a deal on leather bondage gear.  The plot was something of a muddled mess in the books too, but so far this is just painful.

 

That said, despite a quiet bit of mourning for the loss of Jaime's Riverlands story, I am enjoying his roadtrip with Bronn.  I love Bronn's exasperation with Jaime expecting him to do things but then continually pleading his hand to opt out of the actual work.  He's had enough practice with the Lannisters by now, first with Tyrion and now with Jaime, to know that it's generally easier to just go along than try argue sense with them even when he knows he's right.  The fight scenes were well done, and I bought Jaime lucking into finally finding a use for his replacement hand after struggling to get his bearings as a very different fighter than what he used to be.

 

After generally feeling like the show paints Cersei as smarter and more sympathetic than her book counterpart, the show managed to blow that out of the water with her idiotic idea to let the Faith Militant rearm.  In the book, you could see her going along with the idea as presented because she's not a longterm thinker and never bothered to look beyond how she could use them to shore up her own hold on power through Tommen.  Here, though, she handed them the gun and loaded it for them.  It didn't initially make sense to me either why she would send Tommen out to confront the Sparrows himself, but I'm thinking now she wanted him to see that as a king he's really not ready for primetime yet and needs her around to run things rather than letting Margaery talk him into shipping her back to Casterly Rock.  Of course, it's possible I'm giving her too much credit.

Edited May 4, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[screamin]

So my respect for Littlefinger's intelligence just slipped deeper into the negatives, if that were possible. He's leaving for King's Landing, no doubt taking the handful of knights he brought with him, because it's unsafe to travel alone. He's leaving Sansa alone at the tender mercies of father and son Bolton, under the cheerful assumption that she will triumph over them AND the oncoming Baratheon invasion and not get tortured by a Bolton into compliance, starved to death by a siege, killed in a storming of the castle, or slain by Stannis for being so vile as to fraternize with the Boltons who'd murdered her parents. He expects her to come out on top of all this AND to still be grateful to LF and maintain him as an ally and probable lover after leaving her in such peril.

 

The only thing I like about this is that IF Sansa does manage to triumph in this situation, it will be due to HER strength, not anything LF has done for her anymore. Best case scenario, I'd like to see her secretly rally Theon and the Winterfell population still faithful to the Starks, manipulate Ramsey into killing Roose so that they can rule Winterfell and the Dreadfort together as lord and lady, and then turn on him and with the aid of the pro-Stark underground kill Ramsey and take the North. If she can do that and make terms with Stannis, I can imagine she'd be happy to brush off LF's lechery as something she needn't put up with anymore...though of course, in the BEST best-case scenario, she learns about how he betrayed Ned Stark and uses his infatuation to lure him close and kill him with her own two hands.

 

I can dream, can't I?

[BlackberryJam]

Before I forget, Iain Glenn wasn't actually carrying Peter Dinklage and throwing him in the boat. It was pretty obviously a doll from the flop factor. It wasn't as bad as American Sniper though.

Yes, Cersei looked like an idiot which is exactly what she is. She makes bad decision after bad decision while pretending like her decisions are brilliant. I thought the High Sparrow refusing her wine (while she stared at it like Jaime staring at Tarth) and then having the Faith Militant destroy the wine was a brilliant FUCK YOU to Cersei and really shows who was in charge of that conversation.

If the HIgh Sparrow had told Cersei that the Faith didn't approve of drinking, she never would have supported them. Instead, the High Sparrow manages to refuse the wine all the while making Cersei think her one true love is safe. Then we get to see the wine spilling in the streets. Hah.

Same thing with having Loras arrested on a morals charge. Perfect idiotic short-sighted Cersei. The exact same kind of morals charge is going to bounce back on her.

Cersei is just not as smart as she thinks she is.

I think Stannis is the goner, not Shireen. Melisandre has slept with three guys in three seasons. Not exactly slutty. Sure, she does it for power, but she's not a rampant slut.

Loved Bronn and Jaime, the Cooper and Darnell show. Loved the thunk of the sword on golden hand and loved the sword then being stuck in that hand.

Jaime's heart eyes at Tarth was perfect and really mirrors how he frequently thinks about Brienne on his Riverlands campaign. (It's just Jaime x Brienne if you're looking around Tumblr.)

We did see full frontal male this episode. Of course it's old icky dudes with flaccid small ones. *sigh* My kingdom for a pretty penis.

[DropTheSoap]

 

Maybe I'm just old, but every scene seems to be shot in the dark. I'm always straining to see.

Yes! I kept yelling at the TV "why can't you do these things at dawn?!?"

 

Kind of felt like I was watching the GoT Cliff Notes for part of it.

 

Stannis mentioned, btw, that they needed to head for Winterfell before the snows, so I think they're changing the seasonal timing of the trip a little bit.

[Oscirus]

killing Ser Barry was the worst decision they could've made to that story (how could the guy wander around without armour in a city facing uprising?) but the point of that death, as we'll see, is to clear the decks for the one and only Tyrion, ugh

 

 

I would argue that Barristan's death makes Dany desperate enough to take back Jorah. It's not like Tyrion is going to be the queens guard. From the way Dany's been ruling, his counsel was needed with or without Barristan.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Oscirus

[proserpina65]

Jorah punching Tyrion came across as him being a little bitch who can't take the truth.

 

IDK, he did exactly what I wanted to do: make Tyrion shut the hell up.  The farther we get into the story, the less I like Tyrion.  I can't believe that one of my favorite characters on the show is rapidly becoming one of my least favorite.  Though at least we aren't getting him moaning about where whores go, so that's something.

[DigitalCount]

I was gonna say, lol, seems like he's following his story trajectory quite well. The Tyrion of Dance is an out-and-out villain in many ways, and that would probably be too far, but becoming annoying? That's just the character.

[Tryangle]

There were several moments this episode that made me want to scratch my face until an eyeball popped out, but oddly enough the one that was most egregious to me was the labeling of Dorne as a 'city' in the opening credits. Really disappointing.

 

I'm glad Bronn survived another week, although he could easily still end up as a kill for either the Sand Snakes or Areo. Again, good dialogue between him and Jamie, who's managed to make his metal hand into a worthy shield.

 

Barristan,... sigh. Show runners are killing it for me. So Dany's advisers are now down to Hizdahr and Daario. Bleak times for her, I imagine. Doesn't even have her bloodriders (or Irri). Grey Worm may survive (and then get some TLC from Missandei?), but perhaps yes, this is the opening for Tyrion to be the next replacement as Dany's advisor.

 

Mercy though, the number of Sons of the Harpy is enormous.

 

Margaery is not a happy camper at all. Looks like Tommen's going to have a few lonely nights.

[Hecate7]

Shireen and Brandon Stark if Bran gets away from his tree. The new power couple. Or Rickon.

The other reason why I think Shireen lives is that she is a sneaky survivor. She secretly taught Davos to read and saved his life. She overcame her disease. She hasn't let her beastly mother crush her. She pays attention and learns. She talks to people. She knows her history. She has some of Sansa' s skills at being quiet, blending in. But she is open with people and that is charming. I think maybe she deserves Brienne to protect her. Although Brienne does have a crap record at protecting people. Pod better watch himself.

 

I like Shireen. I like her better than the Stark kids, actually, because she teaches people to read and is a very gentle and kind person. She's a very different person from Arya, who is all about survival and this whole kill or be killed mentality. Shireen is a sneaky survivor and would have made a good spouse for Bran or Rickon, if Bran or Rickon were still marriageable to someone on her level. If Stannis wins his war, Shireen is the heir to the throne. If he does not win, he is still next in line after all of Cersei's children, and Shireen is next after him, and so you'd think she'd be getting a few proposals already. She isn't getting any, nor will she, because of the greyscale. It's just like the way Tyrion got no takers because of his dwarfism, despite being one of the most eligible bachelors in every other way.

[kieyra]

Dumb question: I couldn't watch the fight scene since they had given Barristan all of the 'character death' hallmark moments beforehand and I've seen TV before. Discussing it with a coworker today, he said it wasn't actually clear that Selmy is dead. That isn't the impression I've gotten here (although it sounds like Grey Worm is a maybe). Is my coworker being unreasonably optimistic?

[BlackberryJam]

Not if you watch the previews for next week.  Sorry.

[Avaleigh]

Grey Worm isn't officially dead though, right?

[GreyBunny]

We saw one bier and Barristan was on it.  Looks like Grey Worm pulls through.

Edited May 4, 2015 by GreyBunny

[jcin617]

No one even discusses winter.

It was mentioned a few times in this episode.   Mace mentioned how the Crown couldn't afford to pay back the Iron Bank because of the oncoming winter.   Stannis mentioned needing to march south to Winterfell before the snow came and made travel impractical.

[ulkis]

Ha! I called it 2 weeks ago that the show would have Loras arrested instead of Margaery.

Yeah, lots of pretty unsubtle hints about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

RIP Ser Grandfather. :(

 

They were unsubtle but at this point I think they needed to be. 

[Winnief]

Agreed.  My guess is the Big Reveal is coming this season, (probably when Mel resurrects Jon) so they're setting up the foundations for it.  It's the game changer to end Season Five with as we head into Season 6 when Dany will be on her way to Westeros and the Army of the Undead heading south.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Winnief

[Holmbo]

I'm late to the party as usual. Lots of posts I want to reply to. Too many to quote.

When starting to read this thread the first thing I wanted to comment on is that the show made out seem like neither greyworm nor Barristan was killed. A guy was about to slice Barristans throat but Greyworm killed him before he could do it. They might very well die if their wounds in the next ep but I don't think they're dead.

Overall this was my least favorite episode so far this season. I like that they have time for backstory and I enjoyed all the character interaction in the north but apart from that I felt a bit meh.

I think right now the only plots I care about are in the north. I care about the wall, Stannis fight against Bolton's, Sansa's faith and whether Theon will help her and about Brienne and Pod. The rest of the story lines not so much. It's not what I expected and it might change as the story goes on.

Also about predictions. I do agree the show does seem to be hinting at Stannis death. The biggest reason for me was LF outright stating that Stannis will take WF. When does anything a character states actually happen on this show? I agree by the way that LFs reasoning for bringing Sansa to WF seems retarded. But I can forgive the writers for this because what other options did they have? Imagine having to pack in some minor vale intriguing into all this.

To add some more posetivity I'll add that one scene I really did like was Jaime looking at Tarth.

[Maximum Taco]

Dumb question: I couldn't watch the fight scene since they had given Barristan all of the 'character death' hallmark moments beforehand and I've seen TV before. Discussing it with a coworker today, he said it wasn't actually clear that Selmy is dead. That isn't the impression I've gotten here (although it sounds like Grey Worm is a maybe). Is my coworker being unreasonably optimistic?

 

Very unreasonably.

 

He got a sword to the chest and there was a lot of blood. He's almost certainly done.

 

Grey Worm is visibly breathing at episode's end, Barristan is not.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[cambridgeguy]

 

I would argue that Barristan's death makes Dany desperate enough to take back Jorah. It's not like Tyrion is going to be the queens guard. From the way Dany's been ruling, his counsel was needed with or without Barristan.

She also needs advisers who have a familiarity with the players in Westeros if she ever decides to go there and take back the throne.  Things have changed but Jorah and especially Tyrion know what the power players are like.  I don't think Dany will replicate Aegon's feat of conquering via dragons, especially since she doesn't have any riders to keep them from torching everything.

Edited May 4, 2015 by cambridgeguy