S01.E08: The Lyon's Roar

[anonymiss]

This show is killing me. I literally have to rewind to get my life cuz I'm cackling or too blown away by what just happened.

[memememe76]

My favourite reaction to Jamal's coming out was Vernon. He certainly has his self-interests, but he is very supportive of all the sons. I also like that he never shows one iota of reverence or fear towards Luscious. 

[Jazzy24]

I don't get why Lucious continues to be a soulless bastard he's dying normal people would be trying to repent, mend relationships, spend time with his children. Instead this asshole is using two smart females who stood by him through all his bulls**t and being horrible to his sons. Lucious is a douche.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Jazzy24

[Rae Spellman]

 

I also don't like that now with Jamal, fake Maxwell's daddy is also homophobic. I understand Lee is purging through this show but the homophobia wears thin on me.

 

Yep. Lee wanting to use the show to "blow the lid off" black homophobia, but presumably not other homophobia while profiting off of gazillions of black viewers is... I don't even know. Especially, since I don't remember when the lid was on black homophobia. It doesn't help that I live in  a state where black voters in general were assumed to be homophobic Bible thumpers and were blamed for Prop 8 when upwards of 93% of the population isn't black.  

 

Considering the actors playing the role included a biracial man with a white father, and a man who looks like he could be biracial, I wondered if I was supposed to think that if the characters had white fathers they'd be less homophobic than Lucious. And, it appears that this rampant black father homophobia spreads so far across the diaspora that it applies to British/non-American men who aren't hip hop moguls. Even though other black men of Lucious' generation like Bunkie and Vernon don't/didn't seem to care that Jamal is gay. Men who both said that they practically raised Jamal and his brothers while Cookie was in jail.

 

At least, Terrence and Jussie have mentioned that other communities aren't necessarily less homophobic than the black community and that those communities shouldn't get a pass just because this story is acted out by black actors. 

[Actionmage]

while Andre and Lucious' confrontation highlighted Lucious' fatal flaw. He's a brilliant artist, a devoted husband and a father, and a man capable of so much art and love, modern in his thinking and instincts in so many ways, but he's also a bigoted dinosaur drunk on machismo, hypermasculinity and womanizing.

 

Lucious is a devoted husband? Where was that demonstrated? Cookie has told Anika that she bet Lucious had other women. Not in an unreasonably mean tone, but a "been there, got over that" kind of tone, the tone of someone who knew. When Anika was showing off her ring to her mom, her mom mentioned times, plural, that Anika had "come crying" over Lucious and other women. Tonight, Lucious could not tell either woman, of his own volition, a straight fact. They had to drag truth out of him.  Devoted husband? Only in his deluded mind.

 

If Cookie had borne girls, how devoted would he be? How his and Cookie's sons have turned out is due primarily on how Lucious did or did not interact with them in the last seventeen years. If Lucious knows about Andre's mental health, why is he treating Andre like he does? That is anything but loving and understanding. Jamal's coming out upset Lu, but he is making everything about Lucious, not giving two figs about how Jamal has to actually live his life. How Jamal's coming out makes Lucious feels. Jamal's coming out embarrasses who? Apparently, just Lucious.  At least Jamal's sexuality hasn't been commodified like Hakeem's is.  Hakeem, being a swaggering, luscious MiniMe is just fine for ol' Lu because that image reinforces what Lucious thinks is correct. Even though Hakeem loves his gay brother unconditionally.

 

Lucious' love, for anyone, is very conditional. If Becky was found to have told Cookie anything, even if it was to save Lucious, I believe he would freeze her out or fire her.  From a man who refuses his oldest son a earned, logical position simply because he isn't Lucious' level of singer-songwriter?  I would believe he would drop anyone without a second thought.

 

I do not see any of the italicized virtues in Lucious. It would be nice, yes, but I don't believe they were ever really there. A loving man does not do what Lucious has been shown to have done and is doing.  I am okay with that. Empire may come down to Lucious v. Cookie for the soul of the family business. There will be enough fodder for good soapy times, but Lucious is killing his own dream by his pervasive hate and distrust, fatal flaws to be sure.

[ThomasAAnderson]

I felt sorry for Andre and how deeply he's hurting but I can't just hand wave that he tried to pimp out his wife. I completely understand Lucious torpedoing Andre as CEO because while its about who he married it's also about his plotting against his family and I get that. In my family it was us against the world. Kill each other but anyone mess with one of ours we're messing with all of yours.

 

I loved Jamal's date. That dialog was amazing! The subtle nods to cultural challenges as well as the realities of accepting yourself were wonderful. Jamal, playing with his daughter was the sweetest thing on TV today. The little girl trying not to giggle was adorable.

 

Wow we've been waiting forever for an hour drama featuring a black cast; my goodness Empire delivers.

 

"You look pretty" is the new "Bless Your Heart". YAAS! Cookie Lyons is my hero! I stood up and cheered when she said "You look pretty" to Anika. Cookie vs Camilla is going to be fun. I love that she immediately recognized what was going on and checked Camilla. Cookie cheering Jamal and the look on her face when Hakeem kissed her and called her mom was made me weepy. Taraji is killing this role.

[jsbt]

Lucious is a devoted husband? Where was that demonstrated? Cookie has told Anika that she bet Lucious had other women. Not in an unreasonably mean tone, but a "been there, got over that" kind of tone, the tone of someone who knew. When Anika was showing off her ring to her mom, her mom mentioned times, plural, that Anika had "come crying" over Lucious and other women. Tonight, Lucious could not tell either woman, of his own volition, a straight fact. They had to drag truth out of him.  Devoted husband? Only in his deluded mind.

 

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said per se. I think he's devoted to his children and to Cookie, but like I said (and I think you said, in your way), he's devoted entirely on his own terms - be what he wants, think as he does, feel as he does, and in the case of Cookie, service his empire and put out for him when he desires. But the moment the family he adores deviates from his consciousness and his warped and hypocritical value system, Lucious shuts down and calls them a disgrace. He's addicted to Cookie but the moment having her gets in the way of his libido or his finances, he will throw her over for Anika or any of his past referenced affairs. The list goes on and on. The tragedy of the character, I think, is that there is the capacity for so much passion and dedication in him, coupled with the other side of him, which is a violent, abusive, calculating and self-obsessed bigot.

 

And you're absolutely right - Lucious is the one killing the dream he is obsessed with, because the family in that vision is not mutilating itself to fit his image.

Edited February 26, 2015 by jsbt

[Dusty]

Lucious is going to find himself at the end of his disease with no one around him but paid help and I would be totally fine with it if it did happen that way. 

 

 

I feel so bad for him, but Lucious was kind of spot on with the leaving the company to someone trying to break the family apart comment.

 

Lucious is the one that started it all.  He told them in the first episode that the company is only going to one of them so they better grab their swords.  I don't think Andre would be as ruthless about as he's been if he actually felt like he was part of this family.  I'm not saying he's not responsible for his actions, but he's not the one that pitted the siblings against each other in the first place.  He was told to go into the gladiator pit and he did.  Also, I don't doubt that Rhonda being white is part of the issue for Lucious (and Cookie to some degree) I think it's just the excuse that Lucious thinks he needs to justify himself.  I think Andre was right that what Lucious really doesn't like is that he doesn't have the "talent" that Lucious values.  Or I don't know. Maybe Andre did have some talent but decided to go another way so he feels like it's rejection. THE SHAME of an Ivy League graduate son.  THE HORROR!

 

I felt bad for Rhonda in this episode and I'm glad that she just didn't go along with it once she had a problem with what was happening.  I get that their relationship isn't traditional but I do believe that they had "rules" to their games and while we don't know what they are I believe that Andre broke the rules tonight.  I wonder how they're going to feel about Rhonda after Andre's secret comes out.  I have a feeling blaming her is going to be one of them.

 

Here's what I'm wondering about Lucious.  Was he always this like or did it happen after he got all the fame and fortune?  I know that Cookie went to prison for him but of all the things on that show that is his doing I don't put that on him. Leaving her high and dry after, yes. Totally.  But her actually going to prison I put on Cookie.  She actually did what she was convicted of doing.

 

Hakeem!  I didn't hate him this episode! I hope he doesn't go back to being terrible to Cookie. I expect back and forth in the future but it was nice to see them develop a relationship this episode.  I don't want complete backsliding.  His relationship with Jamal can only do so much for him.  Now if only she could be bothered to do that for Andre also.

 

Lastly, did I miss where they mentioned doing a paternity test on that little girl or are they just going to go with it?  It really bugs me and I couldn't even find that scene with Jamal and his "daughter"(?) cute because of it.  It will not end well.  Honestly for the girl's sake I hope she's not Jamal's kid.  You in danger girl if she is.

[Actionmage]

I think he's devoted to his children and to Cookie

 

 

I think my hang-up is the use of 'devoted'. I wanted to be sure I understood the word and Googled it. I read four sites' definitions. Most usually ran to this as the first  definition:

 

having strong love or loyalty for something or someone

 

If Lucious is as devoted to X, then it's not about Lucious himself, but the other person or cause . IOW, Lucious is doing it wrong, by definition. 

 

I am sure Lucious believes in his soul that he still loves Cookie. That he loves his sons. Possibly, that he even loves Anika. But the truth, not a flaw, is that Lucious does not. The Emperor has no clothes.

 

and in the case of Cookie, service his empire and put out for him when he desires.

 

What kind of love would think of a former spouse and mother of your children like that? 

 

I just wanted to add that I am nitpicking word choice, not picking on you, jsbt. If not for this episode, I might've even sided with you a bit.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Actionmage

[dirtypop90]

Lucious's whole I don't trust you because you're with a white woman and trying to break of the family spiel to Andre rang false to me. He pitted the boys together and he's engaged to a woman who's half white. If it wasn't for interracial pairings, his fiance wouldn't exist. None of that speech worked coming from him, but I think it was supposed to ring false. His real problem is Andre's lack of musical talent as Andre pointed out.

 

I can't stand Lucious and I don't know why Cookie wants him considering how he treats their sons.

 

Good on Jamal coming out and the little girl is precious.

 

I didn't feel bad for rhonda. She has no problem sleeping with young people and her husband screwing others, so her problem seemed to be just that the man was old. I guess...

 

Missed becky and porsha

 

Hakeem still bugs. Cookie vs Camila was fun! But where the heck is tiana?

[jsbt]

What kind of love would think of a former spouse and mother of your children like that? 

 

His kind, because he's that twisted. Lucious loves other people, but only on his terms. Which ultimately, I think, means he's often only loving reflections of himself and his needs.

 

I'm not siding with Lucious - I'm with Jamal, Cookie and the other kids all the way - but I understand some of Lucious' pathology. The beauty of the show's writing, I think, is that everyone has their reasons, no one is a caricature, even if they are doing fucked-up shit to each other and being terrible, which Lucious often is.

[anonymiss]

I'm proud of Hakeem showing some maturity from the opening scene to the last where he came to apologize and congratulate Jamal's coming out. All he needs is to feel loved by his Mommy and have her put him in line, and he's starting to waver on Yoko. I like that he didn't stick up for Yoko after Cookie was done with her. Behind all that bluster is a boy with a really big heart.

Edited February 26, 2015 by anonymiss

[kpw801]

His kind, because he's that twisted. Lucious loves other people, but only on his terms. Which ultimately, I think, means he's often only loving reflections of himself and his needs.

totally agree.  Lucious only loves what is good for Lucious.  When he thought Cookie was talking to the Feds about him, he out and out threatened to destroy her if she got in the way of his company or his family.  She tried to explain to him that it was her company and her family too but he talked over her and would not could not  (wow I had a "Green Eggs and Ham" moment there - lol) hear what she was saying!

Jamal was spot on when he told his mother not to love Big Lu because he was only capable of loving himself.  Out of the two women, I want Cookie to prevail if only for the fact that she is the most honest of the two women he is waffling between.  Anika loves Big Lu I think but she really doesn't have a history with him or the family.  The family needs the glue that Cookie can provide with the patriarch having a foot in the grave.

Anika has shown herself to be extremely insecure and manipulative, the first time Cookie came to the house, she ran and changed into skimpy lingerie and slippers pretending she didn't know they had "company".  She belittled Jamal's song to hurt Cookie with no regard for Jamal's feelings.  I get that the women both lash out at each other and that is understandable to a degree but destroying others to hurt someone else is another thing - Oh and when she drugged Courtney Love's character to hurt Cookie.  That was beyond the pale.  She had no idea how the drugs would affect the woman and to do that to someone who was struggling to stay sober is extremely egregious.

Edited February 26, 2015 by photo fox
fixed quote formatting

[Malbec]

Lucious is going to find himself at the end of his disease with no one around him but paid help and I would be totally fine with it if it did happen that way. 

 

 

Lucious is the one that started it all.  He told them in the first episode that the company is only going to one of them so they better grab their swords.  I don't think Andre would be as ruthless about as he's been if he actually felt like he was part of this family.  I'm not saying he's not responsible for his actions, but he's not the one that pitted the siblings against each other in the first place.  He was told to go into the gladiator pit and he did.  Also, I don't doubt that Rhonda being white is part of the issue for Lucious (and Cookie to some degree) I think it's just the excuse that Lucious thinks he needs to justify himself.  I think Andre was right that what Lucious really doesn't like is that he doesn't have the "talent" that Lucious values.  Or I don't know. Maybe Andre did have some talent but decided to go another way so he feels like it's rejection. THE SHAME of an Ivy League graduate son.  THE HORROR!

 

Exactly.  This is what pissed me off.  I mean, it's great characterization of Luscious as a delusional, toxic narcissist, but infuriating to watch.  How's he going to lecture Andre on going against the family, when Luscious is the one who made a big point of setting up a competition between his sons?  How's he going to lecture about family loyalty while humiliating Cookie, his sons' mother, with the Anika situation?  Or goading Hakeem and Jamal to go against each other?  I wish Andre had pointed out that Luscious didn't seem to mind Andre's Ivy League education when he needed a CFO for his company. 

 

The line about Andre not being loyal seems particularly cruel when you consider that flashback a couple of episodes ago of Andre hiding the gun, and providing his father's alibi in the present day.  Luscious lectures about white people never accepting Andre, while simultaneously making it clear that he himself will never accept Andre as good enough either. 

[missbonnie]

I went from laughing at Andre sitting there listening to Pretender to gasping and covering my face when he pulled out that gun. Great scene. I felt awful for him.

Yes, I thought that scene with him alone in the studio, with that music and the gun was just so damn well executed it was perfect and I actually felt sorry for Andre for the first time ever.

[apollonia666]

I'm rather confused by Rhonda though.  She may have hated her husband pimping her out to an old goat, but why didn't she feel equally the same when she asked to be screwed the same way her husband screwed some lawyer bimbo in a previous episode?  She should've saw that as very offensive.  I can't help but wonder what she'd feel if Andre sexed up another man for business purposes?  These two are just.............I don't even know anymore.

Just because a couple isn't monogamous doesn't mean that they blithely have sex with anyone and everyone in sight, or that neither cares about who the other has sex with.

 

TEAM JAMAL!  That coming out via song scene was magnificent, and doing so by changing "make a woman love a man" was a perfect little twist of the knife after Lucious's earlier snotty remark to Cookie about Jamal singing that lyric. I teared up at Hakeem going over to his apartment the next day to tell him that it was the bravest thing he'd ever seen.  Hakeem is mostly an entitled little brat, and the expected thing would be for him to be so insecure in his own masculinity and so concerned with being like his jerkface dad that he'd be a homophobic ass too. It's always so nice to see how much he loves his brother and it adds so much dimension to a character that's pretty irritating otherwise.

Edited February 26, 2015 by apollonia666

[emjohnson03]

What a great episode. Any reason for a white party is good enough for me. I'm in awe of the clothes. I wanted those dresses even though I could NOT pull it off. 

 

What I like is the pacing. It always is so up and down but not in a confusing sort of way. One minute Luscious is trying to make peace, the next he's so vindictive and cruel that you just want to punch and/or strangle him. 

 

I do think there's always ulterior motives with everyone so you have to wonder if Cookie is just "playing" Luscious as much as he is playing her. Though I would like to think she has a soft spot for him regardless of her feelings of payback. 

 

Loved the twist Jamal put on the song. Excellent and the way everyone was dancing was just great. 

 

I did see him coming out though, especially when Luscious was music is everyone's own truth. 

 

I like how they keep fleshing out Andre, it's like a slow burn. Like many I wouldn't be surprised if he would do the ultimate, (say kill his father). 

 

Since this is based on Shakespeare and tragedy, you know that eventually the show will go down with everyone being offed and one unknown left standing who will you will find out was pulling the strings all along (that's a crazy theory, haha!)

[Racj82]

I love this episode (as always) but my favorite part was Rhonda looking at Andre at the party and having a reaction, "Oh here we go with this bipolar shit again". I cracked up.

[TobinAlbers]

 

Luscious lectures about white people never accepting Andre, while simultaneously making it clear that he himself will never accept Andre as good enough either.

 

I think the other thing with Luscious is that it burns him that Andre willingly 'conformed' to the establishment while Luscious plays the game but in his mind never let them snooker him in (although really and truly he did). Luscious was more than willing to go on 'white TV' after Hakeem's video kerfluffle but Cookie called him out on trying to pacify rather than stand his ground. I think maybe he's projecting his own anger at himself for conforming onto Andre. I think he feels Andre fell into it a bit too easily and resents that he didn't have more 'pride'.

 

Still, I can see why Andre went that way: a kid with that unstable a childhood is going to seek structure and also try to be the good kid so that his parents don't have  worry about that kid at least. Jamal was already different and drawing fire from Luscious and Hakeem was a baby that needed attention. So Andre tried to be the 'good kid'. Go to school, get good grades, rise through the ranks of not just high school but college and beyond. Andre was probably getting the acceptance and accolades from school authority that he wasn't getting at home and so he drifted to where he excelled and was accepted. Also I think that he realized that having an education, a degree, being cultured was a means of protecting himself from ever being in such a vulnerable position as Cookie was that she was dealing drugs while looking over her shoulder and a knock at the door could be the police to take you away. That degree opens up so many avenues of 'safe' revenue. Andre was making sure that he or his kids would never have to live the way he did ever again.

Edited February 26, 2015 by TobinAlbers

[rudystx01]

Andre you must have some musical talent.....I mean surely you can play a tambourine. 

[Malbec]

I think the other thing with Luscious is that it burns him that Andre willingly 'conformed' to the establishment while Luscious plays the game but in his mind never let them snooker him in (although really and truly he did). Luscious was more than willing to go on 'white TV' after Hakeem's video kerfluffle but Cookie called him out on trying to pacify rather than stand his ground. I think maybe he's projecting his own anger at himself for conforming onto Andre. I think he feels Andre fell into it a bit too easily and resents that he didn't have more 'pride'.

 

Still, I can see why Andre went that way: a kid with that unstable a childhood is going to seek structure and also try to be the good kid so that his parents don't have  worry about that kid at least. Jamal was already different and drawing fire from Luscious and Hakeem was a baby that needed attention. So Andre tried to be the 'good kid'. Go to school, get good grades, rise through the ranks of not just high school but college and beyond. Andre was probably getting the acceptance and accolades from school authority that he wasn't getting at home and so he drifted to where he excelled and was accepted. Also I think that he realized that having an education, a degree, being cultured was a means of protecting himself from ever being in such a vulnerable position as Cookie was that she was dealing drugs while looking over her shoulder and a knock at the door could be the police to take you away. That degree opens up so many avenues of 'safe' revenue. Andre was making sure that he or his kids would never have to live the way he did ever again.

 

Yes!  I agree with your whole post, but especially the bit about Luscious projecting his problems onto Andre.  In fact, I'd take it a step further and say that Luscious' entire problem is that he seemingly can only relate to his sons as projections of himself.  That's why he takes Jamal's homosexuality so personally and why he favors Hakeem, the youngest and the one who most conforms to Luscious' image of himself.  Of course it's normal for parents to see themselves in their children, but it's like Luscious takes it to a point where he CAN'T step back and relate to his sons as they are.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Malbec

[kpw801]

What a great episode. Any reason for a white party is good enough for me. I'm in awe of the clothes. I wanted those dresses even though I could NOT pull it off. 

 

What I like is the pacing.

Yeah.  I like the pacing too.  There is whole lot going on but not at the breakneck speed of Scandal.  I cannot watch scandal, it is like watching my kid play Sonic the Hedgehog.  I just can't.  This show though is like Dallas and Dynasty on steroids!!

Edited February 26, 2015 by photo fox
fixed quote formatting

[Luciano]

I'm proud of Hakeem showing some maturity from the opening scene to the last where he came to apologize and congratulate Jamal's coming out. All he needs is to feel loved by his Mommy and have her put him in line, and he's starting to waver on Yoko. I like that he didn't stick up for Yoko after Cookie was done with her. Behind all that bluster is a boy with a really big heart.

Yeah, I really liked Hakeem here. With the world he inhabits, I sometimes forget that he's supposed to be just 18 (or 19?) years old. Most of the time he just cracks me up, but I felt like hugging him here.

Actually, I like all the Lyon boys. Jamal is my favorite and I feel the a lot of sympathy for Andre, even with all his shenanigans. The only person in his family that he has appeared to bonded with is his father and he just found out that is not the case. He appears to be the least . . . not self-assured, but maybe the last comfortable in his own skin out of the three siblings. It'd be interesting if he started to bond with Cookie like Hakeem took steps toward just to see all three swing over to their mama's side.

Lucious must have been drunk at that party because as soon as Jamal started talking about telling the truth in his music and, "Oh, I did my own arrangement to the song!," his antenna should have gone way up. Glad it didn't, though!

Edited February 26, 2015 by Luciano

[Primetimer]

Once again Empire somehow rises above its ludicrous plot.

Read the story

[Charlie Baker]

Actually, it's M. Emmett Walsh (and his horrendous hairpiece) who turns Rhonda's stomach, not R. Lee Ermey, as Mark writes. But point taken about the character's purpose. Also see: green facial mask.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Charlie Baker

[Timetoread]

I can't believe that this is happening twice in one week, earlier with The Walking Dead, that I am going to sit here in the cold by myself holding the opinion that goes against the masses but here goes.  I am glad Jamal came out but I didn't find that moment endearing at all.  When it happened I felt myself recoiling in something akin to disgust.  Cookie planned a press conference for him to come out and Jamal bailed.  At an interview, with his significant other watching, Jamal straight up lied.  He didn't say, "I don't have a girl", He said "I don't have anyone special."   I found it interesting that at the moment Lucius was the most open and accepting of Jamal as he has ever been - he showed love and pride and happiness to both be working with his son and showcasing his son - Jamal decided to come out and in a big way.  He picked a moment at his father's party, honoring his father and with all of his father's business partners and employees, a day after Hakeem wisely advised him to be careful at how he acts now because he will regret things when his father is dead, funded and feuled by his father's money, singing the song his father wrote for his mother to come out in the performance.  It was the ultimate F you.  It was unbelievably cruel.  See here's the thing, one's actions are not judged by whether or not somebody else deserves them or not. We don't get to go around killing or assaulting people who deserve it because if we did it would make us wrong in our own accord.  Lucius is a bastard, no doubt, and yes he deserves the pain he has instigated to bring on himself.  But what Jamal did was all kinds of shady and all I could really think, whilst dancing and bopping to that amazing song and Jussie's performance of it, was that he is JUST like Lucius.  Every ounce as ruthless and self centered and selfish.  I even noted that in the way he bristled at Cookie wanting to switch the song for Hakeem.  That placement wouldn't make or break his career but it was clearly something that was representing Hakeem and Cookie finding a springboard for reconciliation.  He could have done it for them.  Jamal gets a lot of passes because he is a more likeable person and he gets the sympathy vote as the gay bashed victim.  But I am definitey viewing him from the side of my face right now.

As for Lucius' other flawed son. I don't quite know how to feel about Andre.  Lucius' King Lear turn was not the first of Andre's distancing from family.  Other than being glad that Jamal wasn't actually shot dead, Andre has show NO loyalty, love or protection toward his little brothers.  His very first lines in the series showed a scheming, hateful brother.  His interest in Empire is HIS interest (as in money) in Empire.  He has no passion for the music or the people -even the ones who are family -, or the industry.  He just wants to be the boss.  Period.  I feel that Lucius has sensed this for a long time and I think that board meeting came across to Lucius as witnessing his son ready to carve up his corpse for the reward.  He saw a son who simply can't even wait for him to die.  Andre may be bipolar, but he is also a cold manipulator.  Another son in Lucius' own image.  And I don't think Lucius doesn't like Ronda because she is white per se but because she represents a black man who eschews his own race thinking that it makes him better. Lucius at his heart is that kid who came from the ghetto and made himself a king amongst armies of the "the man" who would see him destroyed.  Andre, to Lucius, represents "the man".  He fears that with Andre at the helm things would go the way of Peretti.  Andre's breakdown however was heart shattering and I screamed when he pulled out that gun.  I began to wonder if there will be a twist that out of ALL three boys, Andre actually is the MOST talented.  I understand that Trai can sing.  Maybe Lucius is right that he straight turned his back on art because he looks down on it, but not because he doesn't possess it.

While I'm pissing people off, I am going to say that I don't understand what seems to be a one-sided view against Ronda.  So because they have a supposed open marriage (which right now I'm not so sure was openness as opposed to her going along to appease/keep her husband), she is now deserving of any and all mistreatment and has no right to object to the use of her own body?  She can't say no because she once said yes?  I can't get with that.  Andre is a scumbag for even asking his wife (regardless of their level of kink) to sleep with somebody solely to get a vote in the boardroom.  That is indeed prostitution.

Finally, it seems that dark horse Hakeem may turn out to be the most grounded, kindest, and smartest of the boys in the end.  He's spoiled and pampered but when it counts, he delivers in spades.

[Neurochick]

Sometimes I get sick of Cookie, but I think it's because she doesn't say the right words, she doesn't have the language to say what she means in a nicer way; she goes for the jugular and to me, that wears thin.

 

I think at the end, when Cookie looked at the photograph and remembered being in prison and singing "You're so beautiful" to herself, alone in prison was when you saw the REAL Cookie, the woman who is doing all of this, not for herself, but for her children.  That's why she can't stand Anika, not because she's lighter skinned, or a former debutante, but because Cookie sees Anika as stealing "her" life.  I had a friend whose husband divorced her and married a younger woman; the younger woman had been a friend of hers, and now she realizes that this woman wanted her life and that's why she wanted her husband.  It's not that Cookie feels entitled, she just wants to make sure that this company is there for her children.

 

Still, I can see why Andre went that way: a kid with that unstable a childhood is going to seek structure and also try to be the good kid so that his parents don't have  worry about that kid at least. Jamal was already different and drawing fire from Luscious and Hakeem was a baby that needed attention. So Andre tried to be the 'good kid'. Go to school, get good grades, rise through the ranks of not just high school but college and beyond. Andre was probably getting the acceptance and accolades from school authority that he wasn't getting at home and so he drifted to where he excelled and was accepted. Also I think that he realized that having an education, a degree, being cultured was a means of protecting himself from ever being in such a vulnerable position as Cookie was that she was dealing drugs while looking over her shoulder and a knock at the door could be the police to take you away. That degree opens up so many avenues of 'safe' revenue. Andre was making sure that he or his kids would never have to live the way he did ever again.

 

 

 

But are you saying that Andre marrying a white woman was a way for him to "feel safe?"  The truth is that there are more black women in college and graduate school than black men; so I SMH when they show an Ivy League educated black man married to a white woman, as if black women don't exist in Ivy League schools.

[LydiaMoon1]

Best scene of the night: 

Jamal’s Coming Out Party. 
Loved all the reaction shots, especially Vernon.  We’ve seen Vernon support Andre, accept Jamal, discipline Hakeem, and defend Cookie.  In terms of who’s the better man between him and Lew, Vernon wins by a mile.

 

Honorable mention:

Cookie’s look after Hakeem kissed her on the cheek.  She looked at his departing figure with so much love in her eyes.  When it comes to acting, TPH is putting on a Master class.

 

Worst scene of the night:

Creepy Mr. Muttonchops coming on to Rhonda.  I don’t blame her for losing her dinner. 

I did love when she told Andre to be a man and get things done without using her.  GEEZ! When he’s not playing sex games with her, he’s pimping her out or refusing to take his meds while they both scramble to hide his illness.  Being married to Andre must be exhausting.  

 

Speaking of Andre, I LITERALLY gasped when he put the gun to his head.  It’s so sad to watch him be an outsider in his own family. While I think Lew’s reasons for not choosing Andre are all wrong, I do think he’s right that Andre is wrong for the company (at least as CEO).  Andre is a Suit, and Suits and Bean-Counters have all but destroyed the music industry.   Music was soooooo much better when the industry was run by artists.  MBAs and Accountants don’t care about the music.  They just want to make money.  If they can manufacture music by canning a sound and rolling it off an assembly line like Le Sueur peas, it’s all good to them. 

 

Jamal and his “daughter” were adorable, but you can see the epic child custody battle coming a mile away.

 

Good to see Hakeem’s character get some development.  

 

Annika, what did you do? Both you and Cookie need to leave Lucifer alone.

[SimoneS]

Next morning and I have still have so many thoughts about yesterday's episode which was packed with drama. Thinking about Danny Strong's interview and reading the great comments above on this thread, I am struck by how much Lucious was pure King Lear in this episode. Even with his terminal illness, Lucious should consider himself blessed. He has wealth, power, three amazingly talented sons, a fierce ex-wife who still loves him, and a young fiance who adores him. Yet, there is Lucious demanding that they prove their love by doing what he says and heaping more adulation on him. Nothing good can come this, he will eventually drive them all away.

 

I am glad to see that Hakeem is letting his mother in a bit. I don't mind him playing the "if you love me" card because it is genuine with him. He is testing Cookie to see if she really loves him. She is going to have a lot of these tests before she can finally breakthrough with him, but once she does, he will be hers for good. It will also help him see his father and Camilla for the control freaks that they are.

 

Regarding Lee Daniels dealing with homophobia in the black community through the show as well as have a cathartic moment about his own life, I approve and say it is about damn time. However, I suspect that Lee Daniels is mostly preaching to the choir. Polls show that as with all ethnic groups of Americans, that the younger generation of African Americans is far more liberal and accepting of LBGT rights than the older generation. Empire has an absurdly high 18 to 49 key demo and 62% of whom are African Americans. However, if the show leads young African Americans to reject the "love the sinner, hate the sin" homophobia of their pastors and parents even more, it is all good.

Edited February 26, 2015 by SimoneS

[TobinAlbers]

 

But are you saying that Andre marrying a white woman was a way for him to "feel safe?"  The truth is that there are more black women in college and graduate school than black men; so I SMH when they show an Ivy League educated black man married to a white woman, as if black women don't exist in Ivy League schools.

No, I wasn't including his marriage to Rhonda in his needing to feel safe: the college degree, Ivy League business degree, and connections he's made through those ventures that open up the opportunities for 'safe' revenue as he sees it (i.e. not drug related) is what I meant by that. Granted white collar crime is just as prevalent but in Andre's eyes it has a whole different risk factor than what he knows of the very unstable and dangerous ghetto drug life.

 

And as a black Ivy League educated woman, I can tell you that I've dated outside my race as well and had no issue with black men doing the same You drift to the people who share your interests and hang out with the most. We don't know why he married Rhonda. He may have loved her and she may have loved and taken care of him and made him feel safe the way a spousal partner should. That's a backstory we've yet to see and am frankly quite interested in. My money is that Rhonda may have been as ambitious a scrapper as Andre; possibly even considered common or white trash; so they were both outsiders in an elite institution making the climb and that's something they recognized and appreciated in each other.

[Badsamaritan]

I understand why they haven't done a DNA test with Jamal's daughter- they still haven't found her mother so I can see them taking this lil cutie pie in because if Jamal comes back as not the father, she could be placed in protective custody since they wouldn't have any legal rights to keep her. I think once Olivia is found, they'll do it.

[CaughtOnTape]

The song, "You're so Beautiful" is the first song that I have liked from Empire. I read that Jussie Smollett said it was inspired by Gabby Sidibe. I hope it becomes a hit.

 

I dunno if it was the circumstances under which it was sang in the movie or the fact that the whole crowd was going nuts while he was singing it....but wow....that song is awesome.  I immediately went to Spotify for it after that scene ended.

 

I gasped when Andre pulled the trigger and there was no bullet.  I laughed when Cookie called Camilla Yoko.  I awww'd when Hakeem went to tell Jamal he was proud of him.  

 

This show is like crack.

[millerlite]

That ending scene this episode with the flashback to Cookie in jail ... struck me as amazingly poignant and very powerful. There are thousands of black women like Cookie in jail right now.

 

If nothing else I hope at some level that this show helps to humanize the concept that, yes, a woman like Cookie who sold drugs, and went to jail, can still be a fully realized, flawed, and yet, deeply human being as well. That young black men can be named Hakeem, Jamal and Andre, and their lives still actual matter as well.

----------------------------------

ETA:

I need to express my feelings about something regarding the behind the scene inception of this show.

Something rubs me the wrong way about a show being created in part.

 

So, Danny Strong, one of the co-creators, [ who's previous claim to fame prior to helping to write Hunger Games: Mockingjay, was as a minor reoccurring character on Buffy, and who had no prior real affiliation with Hip Hop Culture ] one day listening to a few rappers and deciding ... hmm, I think I now have enough insight to co-create an entire show around Hip Hop / somewhat stereotypical aspects of black culture.

 

I accept the fact that behind the scenes, very little in Hollywood gets done without whites being involved at the executive level because of the disgraceful lack of any kind of real diversity at the executive levels, but somehow that knowledge of how certain aspects of this show came to being, rubs me the wrong way.

 

And I know that Lee Daniels is also co-producer. That doesn't change anything about how I feel about this particular knowledge about how Danny Strong says he came up with certain aspects of the show.

 

Lee Daniel goes on and on in the press about how he wanted the show to blow the lid off of homophobia in the black community [as if the black community is the only community that has homophobia.]

 

Whatever the motivation for why this show being created [which I suspect, was to mock Hip Hop / and certain aspects of black culture, at a certain level ], I think that some of the more emotional aspects of the show had helped to elevate some of the more damning stereotypes.

Edited February 26, 2015 by millerlite

[Malbec]

Actually, it's M. Emmett Walsh (and his horrendous hairpiece) who turns Rhonda's stomach, not R. Lee Ermey, as Mark writes. But point taken about the character's purpose. Also see: green facial mask.

Yeah, that would have been a hilariously different scene if it had been R. Lee Ermey.

[ahpny]

Andre you must have some musical talent.....I mean surely you can play a tambourine.

 

An earlier episode showed Andre singing as child. I don't know what the actor's background is regarding singing, but I could see him belting out something at some point and having the rest of the family just gape with open mouths for bit. And I can see why, unlike all the rest of his family, Andre speaks with what we can call a standard white middle class accent (you know, college and stuff), but why does Anika, the supposed "debutante" raised in an upper class white world, not? Her mother, in the brief time we saw her, didn't exactly sound like she was from the 'hood.

[laddibugg]

I'm rather confused by Rhonda though.  She may have hated her husband pimping her out to an old goat, but why didn't she feel equally the same when she asked to be screwed the same way her husband screwed some lawyer bimbo in a previous episode?  She should've saw that as very offensive.  I can't help but wonder what she'd feel if Andre sexed up another man for business purposes?  These two are just.............I don't even know anymore.

 

Just because a couple isn't monogamous doesn't mean that they blithely have sex with anyone and everyone in sight, or that neither cares about who the other has sex with.

 

 

This, plus in the first situation, Rhonda asked about the other woman. With the guy in the chair, her husband literally whored her out...those are VERY different situations. 

An earlier episode showed Andre singing as child. I don't know what the actor's background is regarding singing, but I could see him belting out something at some point and having the rest of the family just gape with open mouths for bit. And I can see why, unlike all the rest of his family, Andre speaks with what we can call a standard white middle class accent (you know, college and stuff), but why does Anika, the supposed "debutante" raised in an upper class white world, not? Her mother, in the brief time we saw her, didn't exactly sound like she was from the 'hood.

She's working for a hip hop label and might code switch. I don't think the actress does a great job of demonstrating that, though. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by laddibugg

[Timetoread]

An earlier episode showed Andre singing as child. I don't know what the actor's background is regarding singing, but I could see him belting out something at some point and having the rest of the family just gape with open mouths for bit. And I can see why, unlike all the rest of his family, Andre speaks with what we can call a standard white middle class accent (you know, college and stuff), but why does Anika, the supposed "debutante" raised in an upper class white world, not? Her mother, in the brief time we saw her, didn't exactly sound like she was from the 'hood.

 

The white father threw me off. However, there is the white upper crust life which, as you point out, would not produce black "accents".  But there is also a black upper crust life - that has debutante balls and such.  These people have money and power but very much identify black.  Many graduated from Historically Black Universities and are RABID in their support of these institutions - attending homecomings until they die of old age and then leaving money for the college in their wills.  Others were members of black fraternities and sororites.  Alot of these people are my friends so I sniffed out Anika from the start.  Educated, brilliant, poised and privileged, but very much black - and yeah, not at all intimidated by the Cookie's of the world. 

 

For more on this, see the movie Something New, starring Sanaa Lathan.  That movie was made by Empire producer Sanaa Hamri (sp?).

Edited February 26, 2015 by Timetoread

[damalanop]

Lucious's whole I don't trust you because you're with a white woman and trying to break of the family spiel to Andre rang false to me. He pitted the boys together and he's engaged to a woman who's half white. If it wasn't for interracial pairings, his fiance wouldn't exist. None of that speech worked coming from him, but I think it was supposed to ring false. His real problem is Andre's lack of musical talent as Andre pointed out.

 

I can't stand Lucious and I don't know why Cookie wants him considering how he treats their sons.

 

Good on Jamal coming out and the little girl is precious.

 

I didn't feel bad for rhonda. She has no problem sleeping with young people and her husband screwing others, so her problem seemed to be just that the man was old. I guess...

 

Missed becky and porsha

 

Hakeem still bugs. Cookie vs Camila was fun! But where the heck is tiana?

 

Funny that was thinking the same thing!  When Lucious said that, I was like where the hell did that come from?  And what does Rhonda being white have to do with Andre's capability? To me, this comment came out of nowhere and just made no sense to me.  Another reason for me not to like Lucious.

 

I loved how Jamal came out - on stage and using Lucious' song!  Everyone's reactions were great and supportive, especially Vernon's.  Cookie made a great point to Lucious that Jamal came out and the world continued to turn.  Lucious' evil, short-sighted self couldn't even see the positive in that.  

 

Andre is breaking my heart.  I don't like him most of the time, but his struggle with his illness is real.

 

I love Jamal and Hakeem's relationship!  They go back and forth as family does, but in the end they are there for each other.

[TobinAlbers]

 

Lucious' evil, short-sighted self couldn't even see the positive in that

He was even dressed the part! At the white party he was all celebratory.

 

Cut to the scene when he enters Empire after the news broke: Head to toe dressed in black. Hat, sunglasses, head bowed. It was like the man was dressed for a funeral. Or that he was no longer walking in the light and EvilLuscious had come out to play.

[BestestAuntEver]

----------------------------------

ETA:

I need to express my feelings about something regarding the behind the scene inception of this show.

Something rubs me the wrong way about a show being created in part.

So, Danny Strong, one of the co-creators, [ who's previous claim to fame prior to helping to write Hunger Games: Mockingjay, was as a minor reoccurring character on Buffy, and who had no prior real affiliation with Hip Hop Culture ] one day listening to a few rappers and deciding ... hmm, I think I now have enough insight to co-create an entire show around Hip Hop / somewhat stereotypical aspects of black culture.

I accept the fact that behind the scenes, very little in Hollywood gets done without whites being involved at the executive level because of the disgraceful lack of any kind of real diversity at the executive levels, but somehow that knowledge of how certain aspects of this show came to being, rubs me the wrong way.

And I know that Lee Daniels is also co-producer. That doesn't change anything about how I feel about this particular knowledge about how Danny Strong says he came up with certain aspects of the show.

Lee Daniel goes on and on in the press about how he wanted the show to blow the lid off of homophobia in the black community [as if the black community is the only community that has homophobia.]

Whatever the motivation for why this show being created [which I suspect, was to mock Hip Hop / and certain aspects of black culture, at a certain level ], I think that some of the more emotional aspects of the show had helped to elevate some of the more damning stereotypes.

Danny Strong was also in Gilmore Girls (one of my favorite series) and wrote the screen play for The Butler. he had more than a minor role on BtVS. I would call his role on Justified minor. IMO, he is a talented writer and his involvement was a plus for me. For me, this show and even this episode which he wrote proves his talent. IIRC, his thought process was to make a movie out of the concept of Empire. He took it to Lee Daniels who told him, "no it's a TV series."

I think he did a good directing this episode, too. The white party was full of energy, Andre's scene in the recording boothe was heart breaking as was Cookie singing to herself in prison. Loved the pan out shot with all the cells visible.

I commend TH because one minute I like Lucious the next breath I won't to stab him in the eye.

I like Rhonda. I want to see her and Cookie team up.

You all have said everything I wanted to mention all about Cookie. I got my Cookie Lucious hook-up, now I want to see Lucious lose it when Cookie fives another man the nookie.

TPH is everything.

Edited February 26, 2015 by BestestAuntEver

[Rae Spellman]

 

And I don't think Lucius doesn't like Ronda because she is white per se but because she represents a black man who eschews his own race thinking that it makes him better.

 

This is what I got with Cookie in the pilot when she asked him why he married that white girl. I thought she really wanted to know if Andre was that guy or if he just happened to fall in love with a white woman. Despite Andre saying he wasn't accepted by the Lyons because he lacked musical talent, Andre also told us that he is that guy. Except he's working for a black company which is kinda confusing. 

[millerlite]

I'm not questioning either his writing or directing credits, just the aspect at a Mete level of how the show came into conception, and how that rubbed me the wrong way as a person of color.

[Soup333]

This show is killing me. I literally have to rewind to get my life cuz I'm cackling or too blown away by what just happened.

 

Yep. I have to pause every so often so I can get my life.

 

But where the heck is tiana?

 

Where indeed.

[BestestAuntEver]

I'm not questioning either his writing or directing credits, just the aspect at a Mete level of how the show came into conception, and how that rubbed me the wrong way as a person of color.

As a WOC I totally get it. I would probably doing some serious side eyeing tof the conception myself, if it were someone other than Danny Strong. His work on The Butler made me believe he could do this.

Edited February 26, 2015 by BestestAuntEver

[Timetoread]

This is what I got with Cookie in the pilot when she asked him why he married that white girl. I thought she really wanted to know if Andre was that guy or if he just happened to fall in love with a white woman. Despite Andre saying he wasn't accepted by the Lyons because he lacked musical talent, Andre also told us that he is that guy. Except he's working for a black company which is kinda confusing. 

 

Not so confusing, because what has been a theme running through is that all three boys believe that they got to where they are on their own talent/skill/brains and do not want to admit that they have received ALOT by having Lyons as a last name - regardless of how they feel about him.  Andre might have been very successful but I doubt he'd be the CFO of another major company before the age of 30. 

[bichonblitz]

Day after the white party, Lucius going to Cookie's office all pissed off about Jamal coming out. Loved Cookie telling him, So now everybody knows and guess what NOBODY cares!  In other words, get over it and move on, asshole!

Love Cookie! 

Edited February 26, 2015 by bichonblitz

[Artsda]

Jamal and his “daughter” were adorable, but you can see the epic child custody battle coming a mile away.

 

Yes, especially with the girl asking for mommy. I wonder if the coming out will be used against him with the battle. 

[kdm07]

Lucious is the worst.  Can he just die of ALS already?  There is not a bone in his body worth redeeming.

He really is the absolute worst!

 

I knew it, i knew that Jamal was going to come out to the song. I loved it. I was jumping up and down, cheering him on. I loved the pissed off look on Lucious' face. Go Jamal! Tell your truth. Don't try to please your homophobic asshole father. Fuck him! Oh, I also loved that he found a new boo and is trying to be a father to the little girl.

 

Poor Andre. He does all the right things, but cannot please Lucious. Andre and Rhonda are cracking. I had a good chuckle when she threw up in her plate. 

 

The preview for next week looks crazy good.

I was here for Jamal (and everyone else) basically saying FU to Lucious. And yes, please keep showing him interacting with that little girl, she is the cutest.

 

Andre and Rhonda are something else. They do love each other but it's nice to see the cracks here and there. Andre has me so worried for him now with that gun scene. Poor guy :(

 

OMG so much happened! I love this show, and Danny Strong, you magnificent bastard, well done!

Yes to this.

 

Time to download 'You're So Beautiful'. It's so catchy!

[sereion]

This episode....whew! So much went on last night, and I don't know where to begin:

The white party scene was EVERYTHING! Jamal slyly coming out to the world, to everyone's approval (except for Luscious) and Cookie shutting down both Camilla AND Anika...pure gold.

I enjoyed Hakeem last night. I never disliked him; he's spoiled and petulant, but I see room for growth as evidenced with is relationship with Jamal and making amends with Cookie--speaking of which...

I'm glad that he finally revealed the reason why he was so angry with Cookie, and I like her response, by stating that she didn't favor Jamal, but she knew more about him--which make sense as she was locked up for nearly all his life, so she knows very little about him. Andre, removed himself from the lifestyle by going off to school, while Jamal was seemingly the only person who remained in contact with Cookie.

Andre...although he tried to pit brothers against each other, and he pimped his wife to somebody's grandaddy, I felt bad for him; the relationship with his family is nonexistent--even with Cookie, she all but ignores him. Vernon and Rhonda are the closest thing to a family he has. I was so relieved when he didn't pull the trigger. I'm getting nervous with him unleashing the crazy next week.

I tell you, there are very few shows I watch regularly with excitement (Have and Have Nots, Being Mary Jane, How to Get Away With Murder, and Orphan Black), but this is the only show that on is repeat status on my DVR--it's that awesome!

[scarletregina]

I almost feel bad for Annika. She's caught on to the fact that Lucious only proposed to her to get her father to lie for him. What I can't figure out is why she didn't tell him to fuck off. I understand that she's spiteful and vengeful, but she could be all of that and still leave Lucious. A few episodes ago, someone on here mentioned that it seemed like Lucious was a prize for Annika. After this episode, it seems that way to me too.

 

I have a different take on the Camilla situation than most of you. Cookie is excellent at reading people. She knows that Camilla doesn't really care about Hakeem. That's why she went off on her. Of course, she should let Hakeem learn that the hard way (which it seems like he may have), but she's fierce when it comes to protecting her kids - not that she's not often out of line when she does so.

 

I don't buy Rhonda's pity party. She was all for selling herself when she thought it would be someone sexy. She only had a problem with it when the guy was disabled. She most certainly has the right to choose her sexual partners, but to make Andre feel bad for something that was 100% on board with is a terrible thing to do. All she had to do was say "This wasn't what I thought it was. Don't ever set me up with someone like that again." 

 

I think if Cookie knew that Andre wanted to be a part of the family song, she would make sure he was in the studio with them. I don't think she has any idea that his lack of musical talent makes him feel inadequate. I also don't think she has any clue that his life is less than perfect. 

 

That being said, Lucious was right to object to Andre's acting CEO proposal. It was a plot to take over the company. And Andre has done his best to pit his brothers against one another and sabotage their efforts to prove themselves to their father. I don't have any sympathy where that is concerned.

 

At the same time, Lucious has clearly fucked him up. Andre has learned from his father how to be underhanded and he can play games better than his father because he's so intelligent. Yet, all of that intelligence falls away when he comes face to face with the fact that his father, whom he has lied for and protected, even from a murder charge, doesn't love him. 

 

I feel for everyone on this show, except for Lucious who is a complete asshole.