S05.E03: Episode Three

[jadecorleone]

Elizabeth McGovern and Richard E. Grant have such good chemistry together.  Which is why the second season of The Scarlet Pimpernel sucked; the jerks killed off Marguerite!

 

Cora doesn't seem to see Mr. Bricker as anything more than a friend, which is why she was happily surprised to see Robert sitting there.  Robert, of course, remains Lord of the Asses.  He might have good reason to feel threatened, though.

 

Mary and Gillingham - still don't give a shit.  Ditto on the "Bates may have killed someone again" storyline.  Oddly, I still like Anna and Bates.

 

Good O'Brien (forgot what Cora's lady's maid's name was, so.....) comes clean with everything and fully gains Cora's trust.  Good.

 

Rose is still Rose - good intentions but bad timing.  I still like her though.

 

Did Edith directly piss off God or Buddha or The Fates at some point?  Because I don't think shit can get any worse for her.....but they probably are.

 

The Socialist Lady loves irritating Robert, doesn't she?  Maybe it's a fetish?

 

I was actually starting to tear up during the scene where the Dowager Countess reunited with the old Russian prince.

 

Next episode - is Thomas shooting up?  Oh, dear!

I had completely forgotten that they had done the Scarlet Pimpernel together. There was a second season? I need to find this

[helenamonster]

I guess Mary's grateful she took Tony for a test drive, since now she knows she doesn't fancy herself being married to him, but now he's latched on and she can't shake him. I'm sure she'll figure something out, what with her "cold and unfeeling way" and all.

 

Will Anna ever catch a break? Like literally ever? I don't think I've dreaded anything more than I'm dreading Bates finding that diaphragm. I praised Mary in the last episode for being such an amazing friend to Anna despite her self-centeredness, but now I want to take it all back. If something happens to Anna because of Mary's inability to live up to her shit, that will be on Mary's hands. Also, I can't decide how I feel about neither Mary nor Mrs. Hughes telling Anna about the train ticket. I feel like they're doing it to protect her, and let her continue to live in her little delusional world where there's no proof that Bates killed Green, and I kind of respect them for that (though I think Anna still has her doubts, even if she can't admit them to herself). But I also feel like Anna has the right to know all the facts. Bates is her husband. She's stood by him when all signs have pointed to murder before. Let her make an informed decision. For the love of God, give the woman some semblance of control. She's so freaked out she's hinted at moving away. She doesn't deserve this.

 

I haven't enjoyed Cora this much since her righteous anger with Donk after Sybil's death. But my lord are she and Simon the sparkliest. I liked hearing her talk about her pre-Downton life. I remember a lot of posters back on TWoP saying that she was Jewish because her maiden name was Levinson (which I never really thought much of; my last name has Jewish roots but both sides of my family are Catholic), so it was nice to finally hear it confirmed on the show. When people did talk about Cora being Jewish I thought it was huge missed opportunity. I thought it would have been an interesting subplot back in the S2 Christmas special (which was actually about Christmas) if we found out that there was some annual disagreement between Cora and Violet/Donk about celebrating Hanukkah alongside Christmas or something like that...obviously Violet/Donk would be having none of it, but it would have been a change of pace, imo, to examine how the British upper class felt about Jews. It would definitely add another layer to the disdain that Violet has for Cora...not only is she American, but her father wasn't even a Christian. Although, Mr. Levinson could have simply been ethnically Jewish, not religiously, but still. Jews are both an ethnic and religious minority, I feel like there could have been a lot of possibility with that.

 

Anyway...I agree with the poster who said something to the effect that Cora may have been portrayed as a dim bulb all these years, but only because that was all she was allowed to be. It's very possible she could have a great interest/aptitude for art but she simply never got the opportunity to express it (and the story runs a very nice parallel with Daisy's). Donk treats her like shit, honestly, and it's nice to see her finally realizing that. I think she knows exactly how Simon feels, but has no plans to have an affair with him. She's still Lady Grantham, at the end of the day. Anyway, Team Cora for the foreseeable future.

 

Still not much sympathy for Edith. I feel bad that she lives in a time where she's not allowed to raise her own child under certain circumstances, but she's got some serious blinders on. Yeah, I get it, she loves her kid, but idk anyone who throws literally all common sense and decency out the window after giving birth. If anything, I thought having children helped people get a better perspective on things. Edith and Mrs. Drewe actually have more in common than Edith is willing to believe. They're both Marigold's mothers. They both love her and want the best for her, and would be devastated if she was taken away from them forever. It really wouldn't be much of a stretch for Edith to put herself in Mrs. Drewe's shoes. Yes, she has slightly more of an upper hand because she actually gave birth to Marigold, but she and Mrs. Drewe are really two sides of the same coin. I did feel a small twinge in my heart when she was watching George and Sybbie with their parents, though. Again, that could have been her if times were different, and it sucks.

 

Any goodwill that Sarah built up with me when she was tutoring Daisy last episode has evaporated. Again, it's not what she says. It's how/when she says it. Read a room, lady!

[PRgal]

Cora only said her father was Jewish and did not say anything about her mom. Was there any intermarriage back then? If Cora's mom is not Jewish then neither is Cora.

[helenamonster]

But is the whole "religion is passed down through the mother's side of the family" a very strict rule? My aunt (raised Catholic) married a Jewish man and her kids, my cousins, were raised Jewish. Actually, I've tended to notice that in mixed-religion marriages, if one parent is Jewish, the children tend to be raised Jewish. Just my experience though.

 

Also, like I said, it hasn't been confirmed whether or not he actually practiced Judaism or if he was just ethnically Jewish. Either way, I'm assuming he (and his family) would have struggled to climb up the social ladder, no matter how much money he made, which I suppose is the only plot point it serves (Cora having to go the UK to land a titled husband who only cared about her money). I'm guessing antisemitism was alive and well in late 19th century America?

[heebiejeebie]

Well the comment about New York suggested Mrs Astor rather than trying to get accepted by the sometimes equally snotting Jewish society that I think consisted of the Kuhns and Warburgs among others.

 

It will be interesting to see how Fellowes handles Judaism and intermarriage what with Almina (the real countess behind Highclere castle aka Downton Abbey) the natural daughter of a Rothschild.

 

If you were a practicing Jew I'm betting you could not get in the front door of Mrs Astor's Fifth Avenue manse let alone break into society (which in some senses where the same thing -- it is funny how Fellowes either ignores or does not realize that the Bucanneers often came to Europe because even with the titles, breaking into society was easier than the ridiculously rigid NYC set -- the recent converts being more fanatical than the ones raised in the faith as it were; Cora could have had a much bigger role in family and social life than Fellowes lets her in what I presume is a fallacy of where women stood in British society at the time). 

 

But I think there were men who made it big in the midwest who moved to NY and let their filthy lucre do the talking in hopes no one would look past that to where they came from.  Or who.  The only religion that mattered in that time was excess and belonging.

[buttersister]

There's Violet and then there's hate watching the rest of it at this point. A re-tread Bates murder plot makes me think he didn't do it--because  I'm thinking Fellowes doesn't really want to wear the big "hack" sign. Mary can go fuck herself--a feeling I've had from the beginning and mostly held all along. The art guy never said Cora was super smart but that she had a good read of the paintings--which would be totally believable of the character, who I hopes kicks Robert into his dressing room for a good long while. Delusional Edith needs to go off for a long rest or some adventure--she wears her blinders well but the cluelessness has gotten old and I just don't care anymore. Still have a fondness for Mrs. Hughes--here's hoping the next few weeks doesn't dampen that. And I'd be glad if Thomas doesn't come back, but I know the odds of that suck. Everybody else is just irritating in the background. Except Violet, because Maggie Smith can do it all with a tilt of her head.

[izabella]

Edith needs to get a grip.  She is out of control, and her expectations of this arrangement are ridiculous.  She might as well spill everything, take the child and go to America to stay with her granny.  Make up a story about a husband who died in the war. 

 

Mary, you should have tossed your diaphragm or whatever at the hotel.  What's wrong with you giving it to anyone, even in a paper bag?  Eww.

[Llywela]

Is Tony trying to get in good with Isobel or something? His randomly thanking her was really weird. She treats him no different than the rest.

Isobel is Mary's mother-in-law, mother of her dead husband - he was acknowledging that it might be painful for her to see Mary moving on with another man.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Llywela

[Lillybee]

In the Jewish world, Judaism is only passed on through the mother, so if Cora's mother was not Jewish neither is Cora unless she decided to convert.

 

I am trying to figure out where Bates got the time to murder Green. Downton Abby really is near York which is 200 miles away from London which would have been at least a 4 hour train ride both ways. Servants at that time, if lucky, got one afternoon off a week and every other Sunday. They also had a curfew on their days off.

[heebiejeebie]

It is rooted in truth.  The Romanov's were horrible to their people.  And truthfully not very bright and gullible so they believed whatever they were told by cruel uncaring lesser nobility.

Yes there were intermarriages in the 19th century.  And women frequently convert when they marry Jewish men, but not always.

 

 

No.  I meant the outrage about Bunting by the exiled aristocrats.  I know about the Romanovs pretty much and Russian history.  My point was that the reverence might have some truth but again if you go back and read my post, Nicholas even after his horrible death was considered much to blame for the ills Russia experienced and the entitlement by the. well titled, considered it his fault in some part, from Russia's entry to WWI to the chipping away at the autocracy to the subsequent revolutions to Nicholas not simply walking away when he had several chances and it seemed clear things were going to get worse for him and his family not better.

 

If you want to apply logic to Greene's murder it would also mean the person had to have enough time to not just ride the trains back and forth but follow him on the street to the right moment.  Which to me would mean the person set out to do it had to have more time even than was eventually needed since it sounds like, from the exchange, he was stalked and then killed at an opportune moment.  I'm guessing logic though is not a huge part of the puzzle's solution.

Edited January 19, 2015 by heebiejeebie

[SusanSunflower]

How long is it supposed to be since Anna's rape?  The police thought it was an ACCIDENT until this "witness" came forward? And they're wasting their time on a Valet? When no one is crying foul-play except Bates didn't like him -- when Green was a jerk and both Bates and Carson despised him -- you do not kill someone simply because they are a jerk, or on suspicion that maybe he made an rude and ugly pass at your wife.  Though Bates may have killed Green if he thought he raped Anna -- but that's not something anyone else would leap to.

I think that there would have been no-way-in-hell that Mrs. Pattimore's nephew's execution would have been "secret" -- "Cowards" were executed and, I'm pretty sure, their deaths announced with other casualties. They used to take conscientious objectors to the battle field and execute them when they refused to fight -- no PTSD / crazy needed -- just making examples of their zero-tolerance policy. Other were imprisoned under harsh harsh conditions. Mrs. Pattimore would not have asked. She'd have known better. (I'm not sure he would have been killed for freaking-out ... I'd fact check that ).

Mary and Tom talk about future plans and her re-marriage as a young widow and never mention Matthew?

Is Edith supposed to be jealous of Mary/George, Tom/Sibbie all of a sudden so she's noticeably upset for no reason. It's not post-partum depression. She sees her child daily more than Mary or Tom probably did at that age or even now (yes Marigold is much too mature). -- an uninterrupted hour or more a day. Get over it.

Carson getting unpleasant about Thomas (or any downstairs person) using the telephone -- either it would be forbidden or they would all know the rules -- Cora sent a cable when Rosamund's line was busy.

Oh, and Gillingham's sweatpants/pajama bottoms had an obvious ribbed elastic waist, rather than just a drawstring.

The police thought it was an accident!!!
That's all I got.

Edited January 19, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[CeeBeeGee]

Loved Edith's sly "where are your sketches anyway?" to Mary.  I love them both but that's the least payback Mary can expect after her crap to Edith over the years.

 

Jesus, Spratt, have you really NEVER seen anyone kiss a family friend on the cheek???  What a gossip monger.

 

Re: the Mrs. Patmore's nephew sitch:  memorials are primarily for the living, not the dead.  Carson is being unimaginative, unempathetic and literal here.  More good than harm would be caused by including Alfred's name on the memorial.

[CeeBeeGee]

Interesting perspective.  That's a good point, she might have known.  I thought maybe if that were the case, she would have seemed/looked more guilty to Robert.  Or maybe she did know but to her, it was solely platonic so she saw no problem with it.  Regardless, I really do not want an affair storyline... I don't think she was leading him on.

 

Just because he was attracted doesn't mean she was leading him on.  I read it as, first off, she's a beautiful woman; second; she has fascinating insight about these paintings.  She obviously responds much as he would to them. Third, she's a bleeping Countess.  Of course he's intrigued.  She wasn't deploying her feminine wiles or anything, he seemed to be responding to something integral about her.

 

Oh, and during their farewell--she knew.  She was aware. And flattered.  But she wasn't responsible.

 

Man, I love it when Cora stands up to Robert!

[lucindabelle]

Loved the Violet and Prince moment. Wondered why that one guy was so taken aback at cousins at downton, thought he was just impressed she was rich.

How thick is mrs. Drew not to have figured it out by now? And why, o why, don't they just freaking TELL HER? Mrs drew knows the baby is adopted. She likely knows Edith was away for months.

Haven't read comments yet but the mary snark against Edith for the fire seems bizarre. It was an accident.

Mary looks elegant in clothes but kind of scarecrow bony in a slip.

I knew handwriting was on wall for tony ever since charles planted seed of doubt last week about his intelligence. I feel sorry for him though. They'd have a decent marriage if she could stop questioning. He's kind, of her class, good looking.

Bunting is tone deaf.

Then again so is Donk. The way he complains about her so that she can actually hear it is beyond rude. And implausible. You can tell Fellowes doesn't know any aristocrats (ok maybe he does now.... )

Sprat needs to go. He's a snob who wouldn't even serve untitled people last week and now he's a gossip too.

[Llywela]

You can tell Fellowes doesn't know any aristocrats (ok maybe he does now.... )

Well, he's married to one, so...;)

[Lillybee]

I am interested in the tranformation of Daisey, the more she learns, the less satisfied she will be in her life as a servant. I do remember that she was a bit jealous when one of the footmen was accepted to apprentice under a famous chef in London.

[bmoore4026]

How long is it supposed to be since Anna's rape?  The police thought it was an ACCIDENT until this "witness" came forward? And they're wasting their time on a Valet?

 

How much you wanna bet that this "witness" is the same one who withheld evidence that Bates didn't kill his wife and this is her revenge?

[pasdetrois]

The storytelling pace picked up a bit with the introduction of new situations - Cora and Bricker in a gallery and the Russians and Violet. I'm willfully trying to ignore the boring Mary/beaus, Edith/Marigold, and Bates/Anna/murder/diaphragm subplots. They could have been interesting but are not.

 

I appreciated the dialogue between Cora and Bricker and Mary and Tom. We don't get much genuine adult conversation in this series - everything's overwraught drama and clunky anvils.

 

Violet's vapors about "sex and maMAH" were delightful. As was the final amusing little understanding she and Mary reached as they said their goodbyes.

 

I am curious to learn where Thomas went. And the teasers for next week seem to indicate that Edith is going to out herself as Marigold's mother or find out what happened to Gregson.

[Avaleigh]

Edith needs to get a grip.  She is out of control, and her expectations of this arrangement are ridiculous.  She might as well spill everything, take the child and go to America to stay with her granny.  Make up a story about a husband who died in the war. 

 

Mary, you should have tossed your diaphragm or whatever at the hotel.  What's wrong with you giving it to anyone, even in a paper bag?  Eww.

 

Marigold is too young to have a father who died in the war.

 

I agree with you though that Edith needs to get a grip and tell Mrs Drewe the truth already because it would make the situation easier for everyone involved. 

 

Too ridiculous that Mary would ask Anna to keep it at her house when it could easily be hidden somewhere in Downton. 

 

You can tell Fellowes doesn't know any aristocrats (ok maybe he does now.... )

 

 

He's also a longtime friend of the Carnarvons and Princess Michael of Kent. Well before his success with Gosford and later Downton.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Andorra]

Isn't he an Aristocrat himself? (Lord Fellows). And if he's not, isn't his wife?

[Haleth]

I loved this episode.  So much happened, everyone's storylines moved forward.

 

When Mary was forcing Anna to hide the stuff and Anna was voicing her discomfort about it, I found it vaguely threatening that Mary reminded Anna that they share another secret (the rape) too.

 

Loved, loved Voilet's scenes.  First she defuses any gossip about Mary by her butler, then she scolds Mary about her shocking behavior.  Loved the little tease Mary made about Granny having a fling with her Russian prince, and then Isobel gets in her own zinger.  Perfect.

 

Servants at that time, if lucky, got one afternoon off a week and every other Sunday.

 

Humanday.

I am interested in the tranformation of Daisey, the more she learns, the less satisfied she will be in her life as a servant.

 

And that's why Mrs Patmore is discouraging her from continuing her education. :(  Good for Mrs Hughes for being more supportive.

 

Edith is wearing away any sympathy I had for her by continually inserting herself into the Drewe household.  While I think Mrs Drewe should be told the truth, it's not going to make her feel any less uneasy about Edith's presence.  It's too late for Edith to claim her parental rights.  Marigold knows who her mommy is and it's not Edith.  Bringing the baby home to be raised under Edith's nose was a horrible mistake.

[moonb]

I just had a wild thought, but I'm not sure if the timing is right.  Could Green have been the footman who used Baxter?  I know she provided a different name, but if someone is that horrible, he must have a million aliases.  And , if so, could she be the one who killed him?  Help me out with the timing everyone.  Was she working for Lady Cora when he raped Anna?  I can't remember.

 

That would be a pretty cool twist. I too got the impression from Baxter that "Peter Coyle" was some kind of alias, but I'm not sure why I think that - maybe just a feeling that Baxter's storyline has to be going somewhere. Perhaps that's too much to hope for.

 

Cora is always enjoyable when she gets something to do.

Edited January 19, 2015 by moonb

[abbyzenn]

I am pretty sure that the scene of Bunting visiting Tom at his office was not shown in the ITV version.  I thought we only saw Tom in his office when Rose came to visit.  Anyway, it showed a better side of Bunting.  But still didn't see sparks on Tom's part.

[Llywela]

And that's why Mrs Patmore is discouraging her from continuing her education. :(  Good for Mrs Hughes for being more supportive.

Discouraging? Mrs Patmore is paying for Daisy's lessons.

[ZoloftBlob]

Mary and Tom talk about future plans and her re-marriage as a young widow and never mention Matthew?

 

Per an article I posted in the episode two thread, and to be fair it was the NY Post so the veracity is well... the NY Post - Fellowes is still so angry that Dan Stevens left the show, the character Matthew is not allowed to be mentioned or acknowledged by the show.

 

Which isn't entirely true - I think Edith had a throwaway line about missing Matthew in episode one, but in this episode it does make for some glaring awkwardness, like Tony and Isobel awkwardly acknowledging how weird it must be for Isobel to see Mary date without you know, mentioning how her one and only son was Mary's prior husband. (At this point - if someone simply started watching the show at season five, they'd really have no idea who Isobel was supposed to be in relation to the rest of the Crawleys). It also leads to weird scenes like Tom and Mary discussing their future plans without ever saying the names of their dead spouses. It's just unfortunate that Fellowes is still this angry, because its interfering with natural story telling and frankly makes Mary look a lot colder and more mercenary than I think was ever intended.

 

If Matthew was so important to the story Fellowes wanted to tell, he should have bitten the bullet and recast the role.

[lucindabelle]

Don't know if Fellowes is a lord but he seems too e armored of the whole thing to have him be raised as one.

And the manners and snobbery he gives to Donk are horrific.

[Crs97]

Maybe I'm heartless, but my initial reaction to Miss Pattmore's request was no. I can't remember the specifics and maybe that would change my mind, but I thought it was unfair of her to ask Mrs. Hughes that favor.

I loved the discussion between Mary and Tom; they really have the best relationship on the show.

Still holding out hope that Evelyn comes back with a backbone.

Mrs. Drewes overreacted, but Edith is being ridiculous. Her telling Mrs. Drewes to throw her out is so disingenuous; she knows they can't other than veiled hints and she ignores those. I think Mr. Drewes is being hideous to his wife. He keeps her in the dark, exacerbates the situation when she expresses concern, and then yells at her when she gets upset. He is definitely no prize.

Violet and Isobel are awesome!

[SoSueMe]

I am somewhat amazed that the "traveling companion" (I can't remember her name) from the "sketching" trip hasn't shown up yet to blow Mary's alibi. Something to look forward to, maybe. Or possibly Mary has something on her to force her to back up the story. I may be the only one but I thought I caught a whiff of a threat towards Anna when Mary asked (ordered) her to hide the 'thing'. What a vile person she is.  

[Stella MD]

 

If Matthew was so important to the story Fellowes wanted to tell, he should have bitten the bullet and recast the role.

THIS. Gregson too, if there was a story to be told and the actor wasn't available. I'm generally not a fan of recasts but it would beat this lame nonsense of treading water indefinitely (and honestly, half the time I don't recognize the actor anyway - to this day I couldn't distinguish Gillingham vs Blake in a lineup, and I only have a vague recollection of what Gregson looked like before). I don't know if Fellowes' inability to rewrite a compelling new story reflects his limited writing skills or is just pure petulance, but enough is enough - do something.

 

And for heaven's sake let Mary get the punch in the face (literal or figurative, I don't even care at this point), that she's been earning since Day 1. What a hateful cow.

[stopeslite]

 

Make up a story about a husband who died in the war.

 

Heck, she can just make up a story about Gregson and still stay put in Downton with Marigold without much stigma. She can have it all with just two little lies - say that she and Gregson married in secret, because she knew that her father wouldn't approve. It would only take her throwing the Anthony Stralland thing back in his face for Robert to believe that she wouldn't want to give him another chance to sabotage a wedding. Then she could say that when they went to file the paperwork a few days later, it turned out that Gregson's divorce hadn't gone through as he thought it had, and that he got lost (with said paperwork) on the business trip to Germany before they could get it all worked out. That covers the reason that there's no record for a divorce or for their wedding, gives her the protection of virtue by claiming that she conceived Marigold in those days after the wedding when she thought she was rightly married, and the only way it could be caught is if Robert went and asked every single magistrate and priest (or whoever had marrying authority) in all of London if they had performed a ceremony and come up empty. Plus it's mostly true, just with the dates of divorce/marriage moved from theoretically after the conception to claiming they happened before.

[PRgal]

But is the whole "religion is passed down through the mother's side of the family" a very strict rule? My aunt (raised Catholic) married a Jewish man and her kids, my cousins, were raised Jewish. Actually, I've tended to notice that in mixed-religion marriages, if one parent is Jewish, the children tend to be raised Jewish. Just my experience though.

 

Also, like I said, it hasn't been confirmed whether or not he actually practiced Judaism or if he was just ethnically Jewish. Either way, I'm assuming he (and his family) would have struggled to climb up the social ladder, no matter how much money he made, which I suppose is the only plot point it serves (Cora having to go the UK to land a titled husband who only cared about her money). I'm guessing antisemitism was alive and well in late 19th century America?

 

It's fairly strict, and probably MORE SO in the 19th century!  My husband's Jewish, I'm not, so any kids we have won't be unless I convert or our kids convert.  On the other hand, my nephew IS Jewish even though my sister-in-law is married to a non-Jew.  However, I found it surprising that Cora even got an IN with the British aristocracy, considering her family background/religion. 

[ZoloftBlob]

THIS. Gregson too, if there was a story to be told and the actor wasn't available. I'm generally not a fan of recasts but it would beat this lame nonsense of treading water indefinitely (and honestly, half the time I don't recognize the actor anyway - to this day I couldn't distinguish Gillingham vs Blake in a lineup, and I only have a vague recollection of what Gregson looked like before). I don't know if Fellowes' inability to rewrite a compelling new story reflects his limited writing skills or is just pure petulance, but enough is enough - do something.

 

I'm not a fan of recasts either and its much too late now, but Fellowes needs to start accepting the hits for the shitty story telling. There's a point where its two fucking years down the road.

 

Maybe I'm heartless, but my initial reaction to Miss Pattmore's request was no. I can't remember the specifics and maybe that would change my mind, but I thought it was unfair of her to ask Mrs. Hughes that favor

 

The story of the nephew executed in secret for cowardice is ridiculous to start with. He would have been made a public example. There would be no secret about it. And yes, my initial reaction to Mrs. Pattmore's request would have been no as well because no matter what the circumstances, the nephew would have been considered to have dishonored his service and people took that sort of thing super seriously then.

[HoodlumSheep]

Maybe I'm heartless, but my initial reaction to Miss Pattmore's request was no. I can't remember the specifics and maybe that would change my mind, but I thought it was unfair of her to ask Mrs. Hughes that favor.

I loved the discussion between Mary and Tom; they really have the best relationship on the show.

Still holding out hope that Evelyn comes back with a backbone.

Mrs. Drewes overreacted, but Edith is being ridiculous. Her telling Mrs. Drewes to throw her out is so disingenuous; she knows they can't other than veiled hints and she ignores those. I think Mr. Drewes is being hideous to his wife. He keeps her in the dark, exacerbates the situation when she expresses concern, and then yells at her when she gets upset. He is definitely no prize.

Violet and Isobel are awesome!

This. I might be a little heartless too, but at the end of the day, Mrs. Pattmore's relation was shot for cowardice. Nothing's going to change what happened. She needs to own up to it, or at least stop trying to hide it from the villagers or whoever. Sure there will be backlash, but she's got her friends at Downton for support.

Mary and Tom are the best.

I just watched the season 1 finale, and Evelyn is the ultimate secret-keeper and nice guy. Please come back :'( I think he has a backbone hidden deep in there, it's just masked by his niceness and shyness.

At this point, i think Edith should just take Marigold and be done with it. Yeah, it'd be cruel, but at this point I don't know why anyone from Downton is worried about scandal anymore. Mary slept with Pamuk who died, Sybil married Tom, Bates murdered six dozen people, Rose got involved with Jack Ross (I kinda miss him)...heck, when Robert found out about Mary's scandal he told her to go to America and find herself a nice cowboy! Why can't Edith do the same?

I like Edith and Farmer Drewe together. There. I admitted it.

[Llywela]

The story of the nephew executed in secret for cowardice is ridiculous to start with. He would have been made a public example. There would be no secret about it. And yes, my initial reaction to Mrs. Pattmore's request would have been no as well because no matter what the circumstances, the nephew would have been considered to have dishonored his service and people took that sort of thing super seriously then.

He wasn't executed in secret. There's never been any secret about it from the army's point of view - he was just another deserter who got shot. It is the family who have tried to keep it secret, out of shame - and quite frankly there is no reason for the execution of a traitor in wartime to have become public knowledge, it was just another wartime death, from the point of view of the village where he lived, and his family want it to stay that way. That's why they are so upset about his name being left off the memorial, because it makes public something they have tried to keep private. Mrs Patmore wants him to be included on Downton's memorial so that the family won't have to explain to their neighbours why he isn't on the local one.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Llywela

[MaryHedwig]

Too ridiculous that Mary would ask Anna to keep it at her house when it could easily be hidden somewhere in Downton.

So true.  No one is decluttering the Abbey.  Weren't those souvenirs from Russia tucked away for 49 years?

[Kohola3]

Bunting drives me nuts.  She’s like a human Greenpeace, doing all the wrong things to make a valid point, and thus alienating everyone against the point.

 

And I agree with another poster.  Just tell the people in Mrs. Patmore's sister's village that his name is posted somewhere else. It's not likely that someone would have the time or money to take what would probably be a cumbersome trip just to double-check.

[SusanSunflower]

I just realized what I think is "who knows what" plot device -- Green raped Anna as revenge on Bates -- Does Anna realize this? Does Bates (if he really secretly knows about the rape) recognize this. I think Fellowes has forgotten but I think Mrs. Hughes remembers, but Mary, again, had no reason to know unless Mrs. Hughes told her.

 

Yes, I thought Mary was threatening Anna which reminded me of last week talking about how her parents had big rooms and many servants and she just has Anna and Anna has to suck it up and be Mary's confidante and keeper of Mary's intimate secrets, because Mary has no female friends her own age. Servants were expected to be discreet, but Mary announced, imho, she was going adding to Anna's official job description.

 

I was delighted Anna objected just for form's sake. Mary has obviously never heard of hiding something in a book. In her family it would not be accidentally discovered for a generation or two -- if then -- after a fire or something.  I wonder if Mary has ever been to a talking picture, Douglas Fairbanks was very popular and he married Mary Pickford in 1924.  My mother was born in 1920 and my grandmother and grandfather were peripherally part of the "new set" in Paris between the wars. Their crowd was reportedly quite promiscuous. James Joyce's Ulysses was first published in Paris in 1922 after being serialized beginning in 1919. (Wiki is rather American-centric)  It was serialized in London early and then banned in London soon thereafter as far as I can tell. Rosamund would not have been immune to Bloomsbury gossip -- on the "second generation" by then. Hasn't Fellowes even referenced if not name-checked Bloomsbury at some point wrt Sybil's new ideas and independence. Rose is too flighty but Rosamund ... In any event, people -- even Violet -- would have realized that times were changing rapidly wrt S.E.X.

Edited January 19, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[teddysmom]

I love them both but that's the least payback Mary can expect after her crap to Edith over the years.

 

 

Agree, but what Edith did to Mary was really awful.  It's one thing to bicker with your sister, it's another to almost destroy the reputation of your entire family because of sibling rivalry.  Mary just stepped up her game big time after she found out Edith wrote that letter to the Turkish Embassy.  Plus Edith is so easy for Mary to pick on, she's such a ninny.   If Edith had a brain in her head all she would have had to do is tell the family that she HAD married Gregson before his trip, they had just decided to keep it a secret.  The family would have covered for her and they'd have another grand child.   It's not any more unbelievable than half the crap that happens on the show. 

 

Also, look how Mary told off her grandmother re her sexcation, politely but still, basically MYOB Granny. 

 

Here's an interesting idea for Julian Fellowes - how about a story line where Edith and Mary put aside their differences for the greater good, some cause that they both get behind and forces them to realize that blood is thicker than water.   

[Pallas]

The follow-up by the police into the death of Greene is outlandish on so many levels.  Especially if no one with influence is pressing the police to re-open a case closed two years ago -- in which it seems no charges were brought against the driver -- wrapped up to the authorities' satisfaction as "valet over-steps the bounds."  And that the two pieces of new evidence are that the victim was heard saying "What are you doing here?," and had previously groused about his treatment at the Earl of Grantham's estate, 200 miles distant.  

 

I was way, way off-base about how Gillingham and Mary's Sex Week might go down.  The Viscount didn't aggress, and her Ladyship didn't demur (though it seems her private patch of the earth didn't move, either).  But is it possible that Mary's reminding Anna of Mary's involvement with the firing of Greene,  was a tactlessly dropped anvil meant to keep the audience mindful?  And that Gillingham, rejected, might  try to use what he has surmised about Mary's motives?

[Constantinople]

Of course Robert was angry with Cora.

 

It's one thing to hit on one of your chamber maids, a war widow and single mother who needs work to take care of her son; to make out with her while your spouse is deadly ill from influenza; and then, in essence, to fire her.

 

But visiting a museum with a noted art expert, and then having dinner with him instead of your sister-in-law is BEYOND THE PALE!

[SusanSunflower]

.." And that Gillingham, rejected, might  try to use what he has surmised about Mary's motives"

 

Wasn't that the whole "foreshadowing" of her telling Gillingham, explicitly, that she had had her reputation -- what, tarnished? -- before and that absolutely positively would NOT be allowed to happen again (as she waited for room service after WEEK of illicit sex and romance with this same man -- a man she was about to throw over.) Fellowes' anvils.

Edited January 19, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Hanahope]

I double checked.  Baxter was already at Downton when Gillingham/Greene were there and Anna's rape occurred.  I'm sure there would have been some scene with Baxter and Greene if Greene was Baxter's felonious footman.

 

I agree that Bates is still a bit suspicious and I'm sure he knows that Greene made some sort of untoward advanced towards Anna, but I don't think he suspects rape and I don't think Bates would kill Greene just on a suspicion of an untoward advance.  I also agree that it seems very stupid to investigate Greene's death just because some witness, nearly a year later, comes forward to say she heard Greene say "what are you doing here?" Its not like that would suggest an intentional push or anything, and no one else is disputing the accidental nature of his death.  Also, I don't think that if it really was Bates to whom Greene was talking to, he would have said that.  He would have said something far more mean, I still really wouldn't be surprised if it was Gillingham, who is so obsessed with Mary, he had to really 'get rid of his valet.'

 

I'm really surprised that Mary couldn't figure out how boring Gillingham was just by talking to him for the years and years they have known each other.  You don't have to have sex with someone to figure out you have nothing in common with them.

 

I definitely agree with the frustration over the actions of both Edith's and Mary's characters in how they treat servants and others.  But we have to remember that being brought up as nobility, they are brought up to believe that only their lives really matter and everyone below them is meant to serve them.  Thus, they believe they have every right to have their ladies maid take care of their birthcontrol device and book, or that the pig farmer's wife should be happy a lady is taking an interest in their adoptive child.  And most "peasants" were brought up the same way, to presume that the nobility was better than them and they were meant to serve the nobility.  It really is a changing of the times that in the 20th century, with the Great War, the Russian Revolution, the rise of the working/middle class, and will continue with the Great Depression and WW2, that the "peasants" begin to realize that the nobility is not really better than them, or different, just richer.

 

I had to laugh when Isobel was at Violet's while Sprat was away and when it was time for Isobel to go, Violet rung her little bell.  Time for you to go!

[SoSueMe]

I must say, it was worth the price of admission to hear Mrs. Patmore (or was it Daisy) say 'spotted dick'. I don't even want to know. I noticed it on the homepage, though, for a different program. And yes, sometimes I'm 12.

[izabella]

I agree that Bates is still a bit suspicious and I'm sure he knows that Greene made some sort of untoward advanced towards Anna, but I don't think he suspects rape and I don't think Bates would kill Greene just on a suspicion of an untoward advance.

 

Bates knows Anna was raped, and he suspected Greene pretty quickly after learning about the rape.  He told Mrs. Hughes, that it was "far from over," so his intentions were to track down the rapist, whether it be Greene or the "stranger" that broke in. 

 

However, he hasn't been searching for any "strangers" as far as we can tell, and he seems all calm now, so my guess is he either believed it was Greene and killed him, or was satisfied that Greene accidentally died.  If he didn't think it was Greene, he'd still be torturing Anna and Mrs. Hughes by seeking the stranger rapist.

[PRgal]

 

 

I was delighted Anna objected just for form's sake. Mary has obviously never heard of hiding something in a book. In her family it would not be accidentally discovered for a generation or two -- if then -- after a fire or something.  I wonder if Mary has ever been to a talking picture, Douglas Fairbanks was very popular and he married Mary Pickford in 1924.  My mother was born in 1920 and my grandmother and grandfather were peripherally part of the "new set" in Paris between the wars. Their crowd was reportedly quite promiscuous. James Joyce's Ulysses was first published in Paris in 1922 after being serialized beginning in 1919. (Wiki is rather American-centric)  It was serialized in London early and then banned in London soon thereafter as far as I can tell. Rosamund would not have been immune to Bloomsbury gossip -- on the "second generation" by then. Hasn't Fellowes even referenced if not name-checked Bloomsbury at some point wrt Sybil's new ideas and independence. Rose is too flighty but Rosamund ... In any event, people -- even Violet -- would have realized that times were changing rapidly wrt S.E.X.

 

You mean a "moving/motion" picture?  It's 1924, so movies are still silent.  I'm sure she has - or knows of them.  I mean, she knows who Douglas Fairbanks is.

[Llywela]

I must say, it was worth the price of admission to hear Mrs. Patmore (or was it Daisy) say 'spotted dick'. I don't even want to know. I noticed it on the homepage, though, for a different program. And yes, sometimes I'm 12.

Spotted dick is a pudding dish, very popular for many years although not as common these days.

[RedHawk]

Don't know if Fellowes is a lord but he seems too enamored of the whole thing to have him be raised as one.

And the manners and snobbery he gives to Donk are horrific.

I know rich Republicans who are just as bad today. Not exaggerating. The result of inherited wealth and privilege through generations, just as it was in England.

 

However, I found it surprising that Cora even got an IN with the British aristocracy, considering her family background/religion.

She explained it herself: $$$$$$$$$

This is the entire setup of the show and the Grantham's marriage. It happened many times in those days. Attractive young ladies with "new money" from the New World married into the cash-strapped aristocracy for a title and the aristocracy got to keep their grand estates. The aristos were willing to ignore a little matter like having a Jewish father as long as the deposit cleared.

 

So true.  No one is decluttering the Abbey.  Weren't those souvenirs from Russia tucked away for 49 years?

 

Goodness knows what they're going to pull out next! Much more exciting than guessing whether Bates will swing. Selling those Faberge eggs would have kept Robert from going down the mines at least.

 

Actually, I know of a small historic hotel, originally a mansion built in the 1830s, where in the early 1980s a new ownership group discovered an amazing 1890s silver and crystal table (large enough to seat 20) in the basement, along with a huge number of other antiques. No one had known they were there. At the time the value of the find was estimated at $2.5 MILLION. Found. in. the. basement. 

Edited January 20, 2015 by RedHawk

[Constantinople]

I don't care for Bunting, and it probably is rude to discuss Russian politics under the circumstances, even if the comments are relatively unremarkable, but I just can't get worked up about it given JF's absurd portrayal of foreigners:  the lecherous Turk, the drunken Irishman (Tom's brother), the crass American and now the Russian religious zealot.

 

Why does JF bother hiring actors for these roles when he could just use cardboard cutouts?  Or just do what Spoils of Babylon did and use a mannequin with a voice over.

[teddysmom]

It's one thing to hit on one of your chamber maids, a war widow and single mother who needs work to take care of her son; to make out with her while your spouse is deadly ill from influenza; and then, in essence, to fire her.

But visiting a museum with a noted art expert, and then having dinner with him instead of your sister-in-law is BEYOND THE PALE!

 

You left out dog flirting. 

[stopeslite]

With servants around all the time, wouldn't there have been some kind of understood system in place for keeping things private? A closet that locked and only had one key, or at least a lockbox under the bed? Something that was the owner's only, and any servant knew they'd be sacked immediately if they were found to be messing about with it? It seems that they would have had to have some kind of convention for that, to keep the birth control and the love letters and whatnot in. Or was there really that level of trust (or dismissiveness) that servants knew everything about the masters' business, and just never, ever used it against them?