S05.E03: Episode Three

[pasdetrois]

 

isn't someone going to notice that Marigold kind of looks just like Edith?

At one time adoption agencies worked hard to locate babies whose physical characteristics matched those of the adoptive parents.

[dustoffmom]

I wouldn't say I found it delicious or funny but if Violent did in fact have an affair then how can she judge and chastise an unmarried Mary for sleeping with Gillingham?

I'm sorry....but am I the only one who laughed out loud at this typo??  Violent......it could now and then apply to her attitude!  LOL

[MyAimIsTrue]

Ha, I fixed my typo!!!

[MaryHedwig]

My guess is that like Cora, Violet was "technically" and in reality blameless, forced to keep a "guilty" secret to avoid the appearance of impropriety -- Caesar's Wife.

This is my guess too.  I do think that Violet had a fleeting, tender moment where she felt cherished and connected to someone in a way that her marriage never afforded...and that memory has provided her solace for the last 49 years. So Violet's "hook-up" was much more along the lines of Cora's than Mary's.  Mary had all the passion someone has in preparation for surgery.  Thanks to the Russian prince, I do think the Violet can empathize with how one could lose their head in the throes of passion, but Violet's compassion would better serve the Edith story than the Mary one.

Edited January 20, 2015 by MaryHedwig

[pbutler111]

I did a little research on popular English baby names of the 1920's just to see if Marigold was quite common at that time and we just didn't know it. No. It wasn't on any list I found and the idea of Edith wanting to name her daughter anything that sounded like "Mary" is hard to imagine.

Did Edith name the baby? Or did the adoptive mother? I believe flower names (Daisy, Petunia, Hyacinth, etc.) were popular among the lower/middle classes, but I don't think it's something a member of the aristocracy would name their child, unless it was something perceived to convey a bit more dignity, like Violet or Rose. I just assumed the adoptive mother named the girl Marigold.

[Catherinewriter]

I know I'm supposed to read the rest of the comments before commenting, but I just had to say this: Eolivet, you rock: "When are we gonna get married? Huh? Huh? Huh? Squirrel!"

[Catherinewriter]

Then I guess I love Tom, because I want him to have whatever he wants, even though the show will lose a lot, really a lot, if he leaves.

 

Sorry to hear that Rose will be leaving. I've liked her more and more each episode. And fact check: She's Shrimpy's daughter, right, of the terribly unhappy Shrimpies?

 

Each time I really want to punch out one of the characters, I have to remind myself that it's Fellowes who should be punched out, they're all his creations.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Catherinewriter

[ShadowFacts]

I've had some good chuckles today in this forum, and sorely needed so thanks one and all.

If Vi had such a visible reaction over a flirtation or mostly unwelcome but somewhat flattering advance, well that to me is even more tedious than the plot device of adultery. Even if I try to put myself in the mindset of the day.

[Catherinewriter]

Don't the Drewes have several children? When Mrs. Drewe came back from the dentist with one of the boys, only Marigold was in the picture. Where were the rest of them? They aren't old enough from school yet, are they, or have I missed something?

[MaryHedwig]

Don't the Drewes have several children? When Mrs. Drewe came back from the dentist with one of the boys, only Marigold was in the picture. Where were the rest of them? They aren't old enough from school yet, are they, or have I missed something?

You did not miss something, the Drewes have other children.  Let's imagine they are out running around building muscles and getting sunshine on their rosey cheeks,  children were not as closely watched as they are now even in my day.  The reality might be more that JF either forgot about them or hoped we would, I bet it is a logistical nightmare to care and provide school for a lot of child actors on the set.

[Avaleigh]

The reality might be more that JF either forgot about them or hoped we would, I bet it is a logistical nightmare to care and provide school for a lot of child actors on the set.

 

 

Not to mention that I think the kids are like Madge in that they can be seen and referred to but they aren't allowed to speak due to budgetary concerns. There's something weird about having scenes with a bunch of silent kids at a table because life is just not like that. I think it's also the reason for why Edith puts the other kids on ignore when if they had more money she'd probably be able to exchange a word or two with one or more of the other kids. As it is it makes Edith seem extra rude to focus on the one kid while basically acting like the others don't exist.

[Llywela]

Don't the Drewes have several children? When Mrs. Drewe came back from the dentist with one of the boys, only Marigold was in the picture. Where were the rest of them? They aren't old enough from school yet, are they, or have I missed something?

She brought the child home from the dentist in the middle of the day - the other children would be in school still. Dentists in the '20s weren't like dentists today. The poor kid probably needed the rest of the day at home to recover.

 

Daisy and Ivy will always be the worst for me. I know he uses a lot of plant-based names (Violet, Marigold, Rose...even Rosamund has something of a floral root), but the two kitchen maids having those names always irked me.

Why is that? Both were very common names among the working class of that time, perfectly plausible. Even Marigold isn't as far-fetched as many here seem to think it is - it is exactly the kind of 'less common' flower name that became quite trendy especially among the more well-to-do in the late Victorian-Edwardian era. The more exotic names like Marigold wouldn't have made any 'top 50' rankings, but they also weren't uncommon.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Llywela

[JudyObscure]

Mary had all the passion someone has in preparation for surgery.

 

[Maggie Smith voice] Would that any of my experiences in the bedroom had shone with the soaring brilliance of my pre-op drugs.

[Andorra]

BTW, I found Mrs Drewe's behaviour a bit over the top. Running like mad, because Edith was with Marigold in the garden?? Come on! What did she think Edith did with the child? She is the daughter of the Earl, did she think an Earl's daughter goes around kidnapping children??

 

I also don't understand the problem people have with the names? Daisy and Ivy or Marigold are completely normal names in my ears. Surely not as weird as some modern names are.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Andorra

[hendersonrocks]

Sarah Bunting bugs the shit out of me. It's like she takes pride in being allergic to social graces. You don't have to be a bloody aristocrat to have a measure of good judgment about the time and the place to discuss certain things...and that reception for Russian exiles was soooooo neither the time nor the place. She *enjoys* being rude, and that...that I have no patience for, regardless of stature or year!

 

Unrelated--I thought the scene where Tony thanks Isobel for always being nice to him was strangely foreboding and totally out of left field. It's felt like all the Crawleys have been falling/fawning over him since jump? (And Mary, quite literally so...until she wasn't!)

[quarks]

In L.M. Montgomery's 1929 novel, Magic for Marigold, the little girl gets named "Marigold" mostly because her large extended family can't agree on any other name. It also happens to be the first name of a woman doctor in the area.

 

Back to this episode: at times I honestly don't get this show. It's supposed to make me like/feel sympathetic about British aristocrats and the sad plight that they are in what with all of the great estates vanishing, right?  In which case, why does it keep going out of its way to make me hate most of the aristocrats? In this episode alone:

 

1. Lord Grantham being nasty to his wife.

 

2. Lady Mary who, as everyone else has already pointed out, lives in a huge house, forcing poor Anna to hide her birth control. Buy a box with a lock, Mary! These were widely available in the 1920s! 

 

3. Lady Edith upsetting that poor farmer's wife.

 

4. This is a minor one, but Lady Rose inviting the teacher up to meet the Russian aristocrats, despite knowing that the teacher has clearly, unequivocally said that she is not a fan of Russian aristocrats, is on Stalin's side, and has previously been rude to Downton guests. Way to make everyone uncomfortable there, Rose.

 

I swear, I start every episode thinking kindly if historically inaccurate thoughts about British aristocrats, and end every episode kinda hoping they all burn to the ground.  With Lady Violet providing the live commentary.

[pbutler111]

BTW, I found Mrs Drewe's behaviour a bit over the top. Running like mad, because Edith was with Marigold in the garden?? Come on! What did she think Edith did with the child? She is the daughter of the Earl, did she think an Earl's daughter goes around kidnapping children??

I said the same thing to my husband when we were watching it! Edith's family OWNS THE ENTIRE TOWN, including the farm on which little Marigold lives. What's Edith going to do -- have the Abbey moved to an undisclosed location and force all her family members to wear fake mustaches in order to throw folks off her trail?

1. Lord Grantham being nasty to his wife.

Have you noticed that Lord Grantham is only a dick when it's convenient for some storyline? He'll sail along being a grand and reasonable guy until the storyline calls for Cora to feel alienated, or Tom to be provoked, or some other plot device, and then suddenly he's a callous, insensitive jerk.

[heebiejeebie]

 

I also don't understand the problem people have with the names? Daisy and Ivy or Marigold are completely normal names in my ears. Surely not as weird as some modern names are.

 

 

To be fair though, why do some people love mushrooms on pizza and others don't?  Or a dog barking keeps one person up and it doesn't another?  I think part of it is in strong part because Fellowes is rather one note even with what he does well  So some people notice some things and they annoy and others note others,  For me the naming seems a bit lazy from a writer's tandpoint.  In a book it would be maddening to have so many names alike (Robert Jordan and George R R Martin made and are making millions though there is that).

 

Doesn't matter if there were a millions Daisys in the same house as a million Roses and Ivys and Flowers, Bugs, Bees and Trees if it annoys people who might overlook such matters if the overall writing was better or not so self-derivative I suspect.  I know the lower the quality overall or the less I am engaged in a book or a movie the easier it is to be annoyed with something that I might not otherwise find tripping or even noticeable.  

 

Or despite the show being the bestest ever ,could simply be the 'mushroom on that pie' type of annoyance.  I guess in future, at least as my posts are concerned, I'm simply airing my thoughts and feelings.  Not trying to drag someone over to the dark side or "convince" them to see things exactly my way.

 

I think my biggest issue with Edith is that Marigold is English not French or German seeming for the adoption agency or initial adopted parents to have provided.  So the name came either from Edith (which I suspect) and therefore insane since it harkens to her sister and nemesis Mary.  Or it came from the Drewes.  Which is odd since she would and should have come with a "name" when she was placed in their home.  I can't see them giving her a new name or having her arrive as "orphan".  And even if she did, I would think if Drewe was willing to take the child on for Edith he would have given her the consideration to naming her.  But this is one of those plotlines were Fellowes is at his weakest as it makes people go to the extreme of common sense or logic.  Something that many people do.  But the problem is he then sets that matter in a paradigm that insists we as viewers follow certain rules that leap in the face of what ends up being rank stupidity.  Just having Edith trying to hide the child from her family would be enough.  She easily could have included Mrs, Drewe in the knowing and have plenty of more logical and even more compelling (for me at least) tension and suspense and drama.

Edited January 20, 2015 by heebiejeebie

[quarks]

Have you noticed that Lord Grantham is only a dick when it's convenient for some storyline?

 

 

This is true, but the convenient for the plot jerk moments still leave me with the impression that he's a jerk.

[JudyObscure]

I found Mrs Drewe's behaviour a bit over the top. Running like mad, because Edith was with Marigold in the garden?? Come on! What did she think Edith did with the child?

That question crossed my mind, too, so I told myself Mrs. Drewe must have thought Edith, in her spoiled aristocratic  way (according to the working class viewpoint) had got bored and wandered home, leaving Marigold to fall down the well. 

 

(See, it's not my fault I have such a faulty memory about what actually happens on this show -- we're forced to write so much for ourselves.)

[alias1]

I an in total sympathy with Mrs. Drewe.  Sure, it makes no sense that she thinks Edith kidnapped Marigold, but Edith does have what looks like an unnatural fascination with that child and she doesn't know why.  I blame Mr. Drewe for not confiding in his wife.  We, the audience know what's going on, but she doesn't.  I don't blame her for being concerned.  For all she knows, Edith could be a little unbalanced.  In fact she seems that way to me sometimes.  I wish the writing for her would be better, but honestly Fellowes has made her kind of a one note character.

Edited January 21, 2015 by SierraMist

[heebiejeebie]

 

Have you noticed that Lord Grantham is only a dick when it's convenient for some storyline?

 

This is true, but the convenient for the plot jerk moments still leave me with the impression that he's a jerk.

 

 

For me it is reverse.  I think Lord Grantham since season two has been pretty much almost nothing but a jerk but then has the plot twist to redeem him (at at least attempt to in my opnion) or mitigate him being an asshole.  Whether it is a stupid Walton's Mountain cricket match win or the downright bizarre convolutions to rehabilitate him in the fallout following Sybil's death to having the straw horse of Bunting say the right things but at the wrong times and in the wrong manner.  I've always felt that Robert and Mary have turned out to, more often than not, be the voice of what Fellowes thinks and feels about certain issues and how tragic it is that the poor homosexual loving, black entertaining, thief/molester (Thomas crawled into bed and tried to fondle someone, had it been a woman the howls would have been heard by the audience around that Atlantic) hiring Earl and his way of life are being put to shelf.

 

No matter how stuck in the mud over certain select issues Robert is, Fellowes makes sure to show how anachronistically and completely out of character enlightened he is overall on an issue today by the end of the season. 

[Tetraneutron]

 

I an in total sympathy with Mrs. Drewe.  Sure, it makes no sense that she thinks Edith kidnapped Marigold, but Edith does have what looks like an unnatural fascination with that child and she doesn't know why.

I know people complain about exposition delivered by having characters explain things to each other that they should already know, but I think it would have helped in this case. Mr. Drewe: "I need to tell my wife the truth." Edith: "You can't because x." Or something along those lines.

[ShadowFacts]

That question crossed my mind, too, so I told myself Mrs. Drewe must have thought Edith, in her spoiled aristocratic  way (according to the working class viewpoint) had got bored and wandered home, leaving Marigold to fall down the well. 

 

(See, it's not my fault I have such a faulty memory about what actually happens on this show -- we're forced to write so much for ourselves.)

 

Also, in addition to wells, farms are dangerous.  Plenty of injuries are possible and for all Mrs. Drewe knew, something dire had happened with an animal or equipment or something.  To either Marigold or Edith.  I don't think her only thought would have been kidnapping.

[SusanSunflower]

 

I an in total sympathy with Mrs. Drewe.

Me, three. I thought it was unambiguous in one scene -- after Edith left after Mrs. Drewe found her "alone" with Mr. Drewe in the garden -- that she believes her husband has some sort of "romantic attachment" toward Edith. He's always telling Mrs. Drewe to be more understanding and NEVER taking her side. I'd be outraged that the other children are being obviously overlooked by Edith which children that age are quick to notice.  Maybe she'll hurt him or take all the kids and go home to her mother -- wouldn't that serve them right?  At least I'd like Marigold to shriek in protest at being wrenched from her mother's arms (and demand to be put down on the ground) and/or one of the other kids to kick Edith in the shin.

The child is saying bye-bye ... she's old enough to be annoyed being treated like a doll.

Edited January 21, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[CleoCaesar]

I an in total sympathy with Mrs. Drewe.  Sure, it makes no sense that she thinks Edith kidnapped Marigold, but Edith does have what looks like an unnatural fascination with that child and she doesn't know why.

 

I'd have more sympathy for Mrs. Drewe if she didn't seem like such a dim bulb. Your husband comes home with a child out of nowhere, says it's an old friend's and that they have to raise her together. Then an unmarried rich girl starts coming by every day, obsessed with the child, cuddling her and unable to set her down or say goodbye. And she totally ignores your other children. GEE I WONDER WHAT THE CONNECTION HERE IS.

[Milburn Stone]

But is the whole "religion is passed down through the mother's side of the family" a very strict rule? My aunt (raised Catholic) married a Jewish man and her kids, my cousins, were raised Jewish. Actually, I've tended to notice that in mixed-religion marriages, if one parent is Jewish, the children tend to be raised Jewish. Just my experience though.

 

As a Jew, I can tell you that most Jews nowadays (and for a long, long time now) make no distinction between matrilineal and patrilineal descent. (Even though some Orthodox Jews do.) That is, if either of your parents was Jewish, most Jews will regard you as either Jewish or "half-Jewish." The idea that you're only Jewish if your mother was is embraced by relatively few.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[ZoloftBlob]

I slightly disagree with you in that I had a relationship sour and end because I refused to convert. The Jewish fellow in question was  not Orthodox or Conservative, but Reform. I get why my now ex wanted me to convert but it was one of those thing - I didn't feel comfortable converting *for him* when I personally have always been a happy pagan. His major concern was that he didn't want the children to be confused and if I didn't convert, then there would always be a question about whether the kids were really Jewish.... and I respected that, but I also considered joining a faith to be an intensely personal thing and that I shouldn't do it just to check a box for potential kids.

[helenamonster]

Why is that? Both were very common names among the working class of that time, perfectly plausible. Even Marigold isn't as far-fetched as many here seem to think it is - it is exactly the kind of 'less common' flower name that became quite trendy especially among the more well-to-do in the late Victorian-Edwardian era. The more exotic names like Marigold wouldn't have made any 'top 50' rankings, but they also weren't uncommon.

 

Personally, it bothered me because both characters had fulfilled the same role (kitchen maid) and they both had plant-based names. Idk, it was just a pet peeve of mine. The frequency with which Fellowes uses flower names doesn't bother me, just that instance.

 

I said the same thing to my husband when we were watching it! Edith's family OWNS THE ENTIRE TOWN, including the farm on which little Marigold lives. What's Edith going to do -- have the Abbey moved to an undisclosed location and force all her family members to wear fake mustaches in order to throw folks off her trail?

 

Anybody who says they wouldn't watch this plotline is lying to themselves.

 

I can't blame Mrs. Drewe for freaking out when she got home and Marigold was nowhere to be found. Imagine going out for an evening and hiring a babysitter, and then coming home to find both the babysitter and child gone with no note. They may have just gone down the street for some ice cream, not anticipating you'd be back as soon as you were, but still, I think any parent would freak. Especially if that babysitter got a case of the crazy eyes every time they were around your child.

[Andorra]

 

I can't blame Mrs. Drewe for freaking out when she got home and Marigold was nowhere to be found. Imagine going out for an evening and hiring a babysitter, and then coming home to find both the babysitter and child gone with no note. They may have just gone down the street for some ice cream, not anticipating you'd be back as soon as you were, but still, I think any parent would freak. Especially if that babysitter got a case of the crazy eyes every time they were around your child.

 

But she was only in the garden! Before freaking out, she could have just opened the door and looked? She knew her husband was around anyway!

 

No sorry, no one in this Baby triangle is behaving like a sane person. Mr. Drewe is lying to his wife, why?? It was HIS idea not to tell Margie, remember? Not Edith's. Edith is totally oblivious to Mrs Drewe's problem, which is also insane. She must have noticed by now that she is not welcome and that Margie thinks she is lunatic. So why didn't she just TALK to her and Mr. Drewe, offer money and education as "godmother"  and ask for visiting hours in return? 

Margie on the other hand is completely dim-witted not to make the connection. Hello? My husband comes home with a child from a friend she never heard of and he gets money every month and the daughter of the local Earl turns up all the time all the sudden and dotes on the little girl?? What may be the reason for that??

It's not as if children born out of wedlock were so rare and unusual.

Then the rich woman offers to be a godmother and Margie has a problem with it? That's just as irrational as everything else in this storyline. A normal farmer's wife would be thrilled for her daughter, because she can offer the child so much more than the farmers ever could. Why refuse that in return for weekly visiting? What is so bad about giving Edith the opportunity to see the girl once a week?

 

No, IMO the whole storyline is irrational and OTT.

 

[Tetraneutron]

I can see it. I could understand Mrs. Drewe not wanting some rich lady sticking her nose in. Worried about how her other kids will feel without all the advantages. Worried that Marigold will have her head turned by all the glamour and forget her roots. Worried Edith will find a new shiny object and leave them all in the lurch, or turn nasty. Not wanting to be led around like some toy for the rich girl to play with. Resentful she has designs on Mr. Drewe. Or even just not wanting all this outside interference in her family.

 

The bigger problem is the show can't see anyone outside the immediate Downton orbit as anything more than a plot device. So Mr. Drewe doesn't act consistently from episode to episode. So we never get insight into the Drewe family because JF doesn't care. The show isn't about them; they're just there to be a conflict for Edith. And of course, Edith handles all this terribly. She imposes on people, keeps pushing after the lack of interest and outright hostility has been made clear, and makes enemies of good people who are trying to do her a favour. Edith can't do anything right, because the show has no clue what to do with her if she isn't a miserable mess.

 

Personally, I thought an interesting way to handle it would be if Edith or Mr. Drewe tells Mrs. Drewe the truth and then she blackmails Edith or something, but that would never happen on this show.

[Andorra]

 

I can see it. I could understand Mrs. Drewe not wanting some rich lady sticking her nose in. Worried about how her other kids will feel without all the advantages. Worried that Marigold will have her head turned by all the glamour and forget her roots. Worried Edith will find a new shiny object and leave them all in the lurch, or turn nasty. Not wanting to be led around like some toy for the rich girl to play with. Resentful she has designs on Mr. Drewe. Or even just not wanting all this outside interference in her family.

 

I think it's a very modern POV though. Back in the time of Downton Abbey, it was seen as an honour if you had a benefactor in the family of the "local Lord". The family was admired and even more so in the case of the Drewes, who thought they had a reason to be grateful to Lord Grantham.

Edith was not "some rich lady" for them, but a local VIP so IMO it is irrational of Mrs Drewe to be so completely against Edith as a "godmother" for Marigold.

[Llywela]

I think it's a very modern POV though. Back in the time of Downton Abbey, it was seen as an honour if you had a benefactor in the family of the "local Lord". The family was admired and even more so in the case of the Drewes, who thought they had a reason to be grateful to Lord Grantham.

Edith was not "some rich lady" for them, but a local VIP so IMO it is irrational of Mrs Drewe to be so completely against Edith as a "godmother" for Marigold.

In general, yes - and I daresay Mrs Drewe was pleased to be singled out when Edith first started calling. But even in the 1920s, people were still individuals with minds and feelings of their own. There are many very valid reasons for Mrs Drewe to be feeling threatened by Edith at this point, and numerous people have laid out some of those reasons in this thread. An occasional visit by the rich lady is one thing, at first - when that turns into daily visits, calling at all hours, disrupting the household, fawning over the baby...any woman would be well within reason to start to find that difficult. Mrs Drewe is a busy woman with a household to run - she has to drop everything when Edith comes calling, because it would be rude to carry on working around her. A lady from the Big House is an honoured guest, yes - and must be treated as such, even if her visit was unannounced, even if you were in the middle of something more important. And, as they say, visitors, like fish, start to smell after a while.

 

The trouble with the 'godmother' suggestion was that it came too late, when Mrs Drewe was already finding Edith's constant visits disruptive, and Edith has never been able to restrain herself, either before or after the excuse for her visits was devised. If she could have restrained herself even a little bit, there wouldn't be a problem.

[Milburn Stone]

I slightly disagree with you in that I had a relationship sour and end because I refused to convert. The Jewish fellow in question was  not Orthodox or Conservative, but Reform. I get why my now ex wanted me to convert but it was one of those thing - I didn't feel comfortable converting *for him* when I personally have always been a happy pagan. His major concern was that he didn't want the children to be confused and if I didn't convert, then there would always be a question about whether the kids were really Jewish.... and I respected that, but I also considered joining a faith to be an intensely personal thing and that I shouldn't do it just to check a box for potential kids.

 

With respect--and I'm sincerely sorry you experienced that rejection--I think that's a slightly different point. Confusion in children that can result from two parents not sharing the same faith is not the same issue as determining the Jewishness of a child by the Jewishness of one parent versus the other, and saying that only matrilineal descent counts (which was the traditional but no longer widely held position of Judaism). It bears on the information of this episode insofar as we consider Cora Jewish or not. And of course that's two different matters in itself--how Gentiles would regard her and how Jews would regard her. Speaking of how Jews would regard her, if the year were 2015, most Jews would claim her as one of their own. Maybe because we need all the Jews we can get! But more because of a belief that one's father being Jewish makes one just as much a Jew as one's mother being Jewish. That point of view, although not as widely shared among Jews in the 1920s, was probably widely shared enough that a substantial number of Jews in that period would have claimed her, even if she didn't identify as such.

[ZoloftBlob]

Without getting too much into it - because my point was that it does matter to some Jewish folks even now - the ex's concern was really less that the kids would be "confused" as I personally had no problem with them being raised Jewish, but that their status as Jews would be officially confused if their mom was not also Jewish - that if they ever wanted to leave the Reform area and be more orthodox, that they wouldn't be accepted because matrilineal descent is more important

[pbutler111]

I blame Mr. Drewe for not confiding in his wife. We, the audience know what's going on, but she doesn't.

My assumption on this has been that Drewe knows his wife, and therefore knows that confiding Edith's secret in her would be unwise, either because the wife would have an issue with it on moral grounds, or because he knows his wife would never be able to keep her gob shut about it.

[pbutler111]

They are going to have to really try to suddenly make Cora smart. She is one of the stupidest people on the show.

I don't think we've been shown anything that would suggest that Cora's stupid. I think the whole point of this storyline is that she does have a brain but she's never called upon to use it, which is why she's so nostalgic for the war, when she actually had a purpose. She's spent years discussing nothing but the children and the household with her husband, who doesn't seek her opinions or advice outside of those subjects. It has to be incredibly refreshing for Cora to suddenly have a man who's not only interested in her opinion, but assumes she actually has one. Edited January 21, 2015 by pbutler111

[lovinbob]

I'd have more sympathy for Mrs. Drewe if she didn't seem like such a dim bulb. Your husband comes home with a child out of nowhere, says it's an old friend's and that they have to raise her together. Then an unmarried rich girl starts coming by every day, obsessed with the child, cuddling her and unable to set her down or say goodbye. And she totally ignores your other children. GEE I WONDER WHAT THE CONNECTION HERE IS.

I think part of Mrs. Drewe's problem (besides being a Julian Fellowes' character and therefore not drawn with any kind of subtlety or common sense) is that she is suspicious of the relationship between Edith and her husband. She was happy to agree to the adoption but now that Edith is around all the time, and her husband is acting sketchy about it, she is concerned and possibly not thinking 100% clearly.

 

And honestly, she's a working class person over whom Edith's family literally rules. If Edith wanted to keep that child, Margie thinks that Lord Grantham could make it so. (And let's face it--he probably could.) I don't blame her for the initial moment of panic.

[msblossom]

I agree, pbutler111. I am interested to see where they go with this. I liked getting a more in depth look into Cora. The writers have never done enough with her character to make her interesting -- until now. Instead, they prolong the redundant Bates storyline <yawn>. Back to Cora, I doubt she grew up dull and stupid; all one has to do is look at her colorful mother. No, I'd wager it was Robert and making the interests of her daughters the culprit of her muted existence.

[pbutler111]

Does anyone (everyone?) else do an Upstairs, Downstairs/Downton Abbey cross-check in their head every now and then? It's rather remarkable how easy it is to match up the character and storyline templates. The character comparisons are especially easy -- it's nearly a one-to-one match. But there are storyline overlaps as well. (Remember Lady Bellamy's affair? Alfred, the convict footman? The various affairs and indiscretions of James and Elizabeth? Hell, they even had a young niece [cousin?] come live with them.) If you haven't tried it, it's kind of entertaining.

Edited January 21, 2015 by pbutler111

[pbutler111]

(besides being a Julian Fellowes' character and therefore not drawn with any kind of subtlety or common sense)

I have to say, Julian Fellowes is one of my favorite writers. I've read and re-read his book "Snobs" until it's just about falling apart. The characters in it are extremely well drawn; Fellowes shows an incredible empathy and insight. He may have to jack things up a bit for the sake of popular TV, but the man knows how to create a character and make it live for the reader.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Back to Cora, I doubt she grew up dull and stupid; all one has to do is look at her colorful mother. No, I'd wager it was Robert and making the interests of her daughters the culprit of her muted existence.

 

I agree.  Cora has looked almost in a stupor at various times, probably for many reasons (mostly bad writing).  She needs something to do, and some appreciation from her not-so-bright husband.  I mean, he lost the fortune he got from his marriage to her, and then had to be bailed out by another woman's fortune (Lavinia).  So maybe if he had engaged her, sought her opinions and listened, he would have had a different outcome.  Maybe.  But then that's the trouble with any classist, racist or sexist system, it suppresses a good deal of brainpower and forward progress.

[msblossom]

Does anyone (everyone?) else do an Upstairs, Downstairs/Downton Abbey cross-check in their head every now and then? It's rather remarkable how easy it is to match up the character and storyline templates. The character comparisons are especially easy -- it's nearly a one-to-one match. But there are storyline overlaps as well. (Remember Lady Bellamy's affair? Alfred, the convict footman? The various affairs and indiscretions of James and Elizabeth? Hell, they even had a young niece [cousin?] come live with them.) If you haven't tried it, it's kind of entertaining.

Yup.

[lovinbob]

I have to say, Julian Fellowes is one of my favorite writers. I've read and re-read his book "Snobs" until it's just about falling apart. The characters in it are extremely well drawn; Fellowes shows an incredible empathy and insight. He may have to jack things up a bit for the sake of popular TV, but the man knows how to create a character and make it live for the reader.

Apologies. My frame of reference is limited to Downton. And while sometimes his touch is light and he can captivate me, I've found this show to be very inconsistently written. Its characters are often conveniently dim.

[Kohola3]

It's probably good that someone can vouch for Fellowes' other stories. I would not be prompted to read any based on what I have seen in Downton.  I can read Harlequin books if I want sudsy soap operas with nebulous and inconsistent plots.

[Avaleigh]

Does anyone (everyone?) else do an Upstairs, Downstairs/Downton Abbey cross-check in their head every now and then? It's rather remarkable how easy it is to match up the character and storyline templates. The character comparisons are especially easy -- it's nearly a one-to-one match. But there are storyline overlaps as well. (Remember Lady Bellamy's affair? Alfred, the convict footman? The various affairs and indiscretions of James and Elizabeth? Hell, they even had a young niece [cousin?] come live with them.) If you haven't tried it, it's kind of entertaining.

I do. So many storyline and character similarities that it's obvious Julian Fellowes is a fan. I also makes me wonder what other characters would make of each other. Like what would Carson make of Hudson. Would Marjorie like Cora? Who's harder to work for Mrs Pattmore or Mrs Bridge? (Actually, Mrs Bridges easily wins this one.) Who was more of a bitter old battle axe Roberts or O'Brien? 

 

I have to say, Julian Fellowes is one of my favorite writers. I've read and re-read his book "Snobs" until it's just about falling apart. The characters in it are extremely well drawn; Fellowes shows an incredible empathy and insight. He may have to jack things up a bit for the sake of popular TV, but the man knows how to create a character and make it live for the reader.

I enjoyed Snobs and thought it was very funny. I feel like I see a lot of character similarities from that book on this show. You can see the character similarities in Past Imperfect too. That book isn't as good but I feel like Serena was basically supposed to be a Mary type and it's interesting to read the story looking for other Downton character types because so many of them pop up in these two novels. I'd say there are very few exceptions with the character of Mrs Hughes being one of the main ones where I can't recall her character being represented in either book. Lady Uckfield is basically a younger version of Violet if Violet had been born in the 1930s or so. 

 

ETA:

It's probably good that someone can vouch for Fellowes' other stories. I would not be prompted to read any based on what I have seen in Downton.  I can read Harlequin books if I want sudsy soap operas with nebulous and inconsistent plots.

 

 

Snobs at least is worth reading for anyone who is curious about JF's take on the aristocracy as far as why he thinks they are the way that they are and how snobbishness can take on all sorts of forms and can manifest itself in surprising ways. The scene where Anna and Bates run into Cora at that hotel restaurant--there's a much more interesting and humorous version of this scene in Snobs where Fellowes explains why a upper class characters would basically roll their eyes at the thought of having to dine in a place like that as Cora does when it happens to her on Downton. This is a small example but there are a lot of moments like this throughout the book where I see a lot of the same territory being covered in Downton but with Snobs there's a lot more explanation given for why characters engage in certain snobbish attitudes and behavior. In the novels I'd also say that Fellowes makes fun of his aristocrats more than he does on Downton. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Constantinople]

Does anyone (everyone?) else do an Upstairs, Downstairs/Downton Abbey cross-check in their head every now and then? It's rather remarkable how easy it is to match up the character and storyline templates. The character comparisons are especially easy -- it's nearly a one-to-one match. But there are storyline overlaps as well. (Remember Lady Bellamy's affair? Alfred, the convict footman? The various affairs and indiscretions of James and Elizabeth? Hell, they even had a young niece [cousin?] come live with them.) If you haven't tried it, it's kind of entertaining.

• Death of family member on the Titanic leads to awkward inheritance issues
• Male heir married/engaged to (lower) middle-class red head who dies of influenza
• Daughter who flouts societal conventions moves/dies and is replaced by younger, somewhat flighty female relative
• Lady of the house arranges a day trip for the servants at the seaside
• The cook is courted by one of the kitchen's suppliers, who's a bit of a lady's man and is only interested in the cook for her cooking.
• Chamber maid marries footman/valet
• Footman experiences PTSD from WWI service
• Dim assistant cook always getting the business from the cook
• Gay noblemen flirts with daughter of the house and gay footman seeks service with him
• Female servant engaged/married to (son of) farmer, and stands to inherit as a result
• Male family member blows entire fortune investing in the stock market.
• Stuffy butler always bemoaning the changing times

No.

Not at all.

Why do you ask?

[millennium]

How Cora could not have seen behind O'Brien's manipulations is surreal.  Now she is just as stupid when it comes to Barrow.

 

I think Cora is an innocent.   The circumstances of her life have allowed her to spend her days marveling at beautiful things and places, or focusing on the happiness of her family (without ever having to lift a finger to see that they are accommodated).   As others have mentioned, she was quite genuine with Baxter.   Where other characters might have exhibited a moment or two of self-interest, i.e., Now I know her secret -- what's in it for me?, Cora merely wanted to see how Baxter's full story comported with her own ideas of The Right Thing To Do.   Again, I think the comforts of her lifestyle have afforded her the luxury of being benevolent and magnanimous (although others in similar positions might as easily resort to cruelty and pettiness).   She has not been scarred by life; yes, her daughter died and it was tragic, but it was not due to the machinations of others.   It was simply an act of nature.   Outside of her uncharacteristic view of Bates in Season 1, I can't recall Cora exhibiting any base personality traits such as jealousy, vindictiveness, or even cynicism.   Sometimes she seems sad when others manifest those qualities, as though it dims the light in the room.

 

I think all of this relates to why Barrow is still working at Downton.  Cora strives to see the best in people.    Her experience in life has not prepared her for the truth that people suck.

 

It may also explain why her eyes still twinkle when she smiles.

Edited January 21, 2015 by millennium

[helenamonster]

A lot of people have commented on Maggie Smith's great bit of acting when she saw the prince, but I thought another really good moment was when she was having the conversation with Mary about Tony. She asked if there would be some "unwanted epilogue," to which Mary assured her there wouldn't, and you could see her drift off as she remembered Edith's little predicament. I don't think they've had Violet in any scenes yet where Edith or someone else talks about "the Drewe girl," and I bet if/when they do, she'll pick up on it instantly. I'm pretty sure Edith had shared her idea of giving the baby to the Drewes originally before she went to Switzerland with Violet. Or maybe they're waiting for Rosamund to come for a visit to do a scene like that.

 

I honestly can't wait for Rosamund to come back with a nice helping of "I told you so."

[pbutler111]

I've loved all of Julian Fellowes' books (by the way, the unabridged audio of Snobs is worth checking out; the reader does it full justice], and I've also loved all of the movies he's written, particularly Gosford Park and Separate Lies, which I've probably seen half a dozen times. Fellowes is also a terrific actor -- a real all-arounder! So maybe I'm more forgiving when Downton Abbey gets sudsy and improbable, because I'm also considering his overall body of work. On the other hand, Downton probably wouldn't be the big hit it is (and we probably wouldn't be here discussing it) without all the froth.