S04.E12: Heroes And Villains

[Dianthus]

@Mari: I was just thinking a bit along the same line. After Rumple sacrificed himself to kill Pan, Belle crumpled to the street, sobbing. None of the others standing nearby went to her. No one. Granted, one of them was Hook, and that would've been awk-ward, but still....

Edited December 15, 2014 by Dianthus

[YaddaYadda]

Neal could have gone to her but he was useless, so...

[Amerilla]

But Belle's never been particularly social.  I don't mean she's unfriendly or a hermit--but, she seems to live a good chunk of her life in her own head and dream world.

 

One of the 15,557,354 things not explored by the show: what does it do to a person to spend 30+ years in one form of captivity or another?

[Delphi]

@Mari: I was just thinking a bit along the same line. After Rumple sacrificed himself to kill Pan, Belle crumpled to the street, sobbing. None of the others standing nearby went to her. No one. Granted, one of them was Hook, and that would've been awk-ward, but still....

That scene bothered me so much. They left a traumatized woman on the street sobbing. Horrible.

I think it's very likely belle is hermitesque. She's spent over thirty years locked up in the dark where her only visitor was a strange man who tried to kill her. She's probably not used to crowds...or lights or noises. It's something that should be explored.

Though, if ruby was around it might seem like she had a friend.

[scarletregina]

I love Rumple, the villain always with a back up plan. He is the only reason that I keep watching. I enjoyed Belle finding out the truth, that his power is his true love, and then banishing him from Storybrooke. He needs the challenge. It should never be easy for Rumple. No bullshit redemption for him, unlike Regina. I did laugh when he told Regina that he know about Henry's snooping.

 

So The Author is now real? Egads. So ridiculous.

 

My sympathies to Marian stuck with that adulterous self-righteous ass. She deserves better. I hope that she finds a new true love and happy ending where ever she and Roland end up.

 

I'm confused here. Should widowers stay celibate because magic might bring their spouses back to life?

 

He tried to honor his marriage vows, but he'd already mourned, moved on and fallen in love with someone else. That's not his fault. If your spouse comes back from the dead years later you shouldn't be expected to drop your new life.

[YaddaYadda]

Quick question.  No deleted scenes from last episode, were there?

 

It's sad that this is what I'm reduced to, trying to figure things out by watching a deleted scene.

[valandsend]

That had to have been a shout-out to a line from Will & Grace:  "Karen Walker!  I thought I caught a whiff of gin and regret!"  It was one of the best insults that Beverly Leslie had ever lobbed in Karen's direction.

Yes! That's where I know it from. I watched an old clip from "The View" recently in which Leslie Jordan (visiting with Lily Tomlin, no less) shared that line as one of his all-time favorites. Thank you! (Who knew Rumple was a Will & Grace fan?)

[stealinghome]

He tried to honor his marriage vows, but he'd already mourned, moved on and fallen in love with someone else. That's not his fault. If your spouse comes back from the dead years later you shouldn't be expected to drop your new life.

No, but if you're trying to honor your marriage vows, you shouldn't be running around town after the woman you fell in love with saying "I love you...but we can't be together!" at every opportunity. Or use the wife's coma as an excuse to be able to shag said woman, only to then play the "I love you, but DUTY" card once the wife is un-coma-ed (and apparently not fess up to the sex, either).

 

If you're truly trying to honor your marriage vows, you don't sleep with your lover after you've recommitted to your wife. And you don't seek out your lover to make numerous declarations of love, only to then make a pained face and say "but we can't be together." You don't put yourself--or your lover--in those types of situations. You actively avoid them, as a matter of fact.

 

To me, at this point, it's not even about the fact that Marian died and came back to life. Let's forget that that happened and just take the last 3 episodes (4? losing track here). Robin whinges on and on about how he can't be with Regina because he's married even though his wife is in a coma...only to change his mind and have crypt sex with her when his wife is out of commission...only to play the "sorry, but married" card when his wife comes back into commission (...only to choose Regina only after Marian apparently gives him permission to do so--there's no indication he would've chosen Regina without Marian's blessing). That's jerky no matter what other extenuating circumstances there may be.

 

At least imo. If I was the best friend of either the wife OR the lover, I would be seeing red and want to wring the guy's neck.

Edited December 15, 2014 by stealinghome

[kili]

Belle was so completely awesome this episode, that my new head canon for Belle being dumBelle is that it is all Rumple's fault. I think he's been memory-wiping her on a daily basis. Every time he does something idiotic, he memory wipes her. Why isn't she concerned about him killing Milah? Memory wipe. Why doesn't she worry about the town destroying itself? Memory wipe. Why does she think he has a good heart? Memory wipes^10. Why doen't Moe mind her marrying the man that nearly beat him to death? Memory wipe for Moe too.

 

Rumple is like J in Men in Black. He's memory wiping her so much, she might get cancer from it.

 

Rumple made the fatal mistake of letting her get the dagger before he could memory wipe her again.

 

I think that the memory wipes Regina did on Henry and those done by Ingrid on Emma have already created massive holes in their brains and that is why they are pro Operation Mongoose. Robin is all in because he is using his other brain.

Edited December 15, 2014 by kili

[ImogenLeFay]

 

He tried to honor his marriage vows, but he'd already mourned, moved on and fallen in love with someone else. That's not his fault. If your spouse comes back from the dead years later you shouldn't be expected to drop your new life.

 

 Well, no, of course Robin had the right to move on. That's for me not a problem. But his behavior was really bad. When Marian was back, he immediately proclaimed he would stay with her - not out of shock but because of his code. I don't think he even was conflicted, to me it seemed like he moved on completely - which, fine, it happens, not the problem, but shouldn't he maybe have talked to Marian about this? Because as it turns out she doesn't want to be with him if it's just an obligation to him. So he was unfair to Marian by not giving her that choice and by pretending to be with her completely, while he was still secretly pining for Regina.

He was treating Regina badly, too. He told her he couldn't be with her, but then kept pestering her about why things were awkward between them, instead of just giving her space. No, he keeps following her giving mixed signals. And then, while Marian is frozen, he just forgets his code and hooks up with Regina. It's all just very douchey.

Add that he doesn't seem to care at all that it was Regina who would have had Marian killed, and that he doesn't seem to care about Marian being frozen at all... well, it's all very unpleasant. But him moving on after thinking his wife died isn't part of the problem.

[KingOfHearts]

 

He tried to honor his marriage vows, but he'd already mourned, moved on and fallen in love with someone else. That's not his fault. If your spouse comes back from the dead years later you shouldn't be expected to drop your new life.

 

If, after Marian came back, Robin chose to stay with Regina, then that would have been fine. The fact he was wavering between two women, saying he was still married to one yet making tacos with the other, was what made it gross. The woman he called his wife was on her deathbed, and he used that opportunity to cheat on her without her knowledge. His lack of code came from not committing to either of them.

 

Pretty much what stealinghome and ImogenLeFay said. I'm sad Marian is stuck with the jerk now.

Edited December 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Crimson Belle]

I'm confused here. Should widowers stay celibate because magic might bring their spouses back to life?

 

He tried to honor his marriage vows, but he'd already mourned, moved on and fallen in love with someone else. That's not his fault. If your spouse comes back from the dead years later you shouldn't be expected to drop your new life.

 

 

Widowers who claim to still love their deceased wife more than anything don't fall in love after a three day relationship with the murderer of said deceased wife, which is what he had with Regina.  Widowers should NEVER have a relationship with the murderer of their deceased wife.  Widowers should not go back with their wife, which the jackass did with Marian after she came back and then have sex with his murdering sidepiece of a couple weeks (in story time) while his wife is in a coma in the same tomb, which happens to be the grave of the murdering sidepiece's father who she also murdered.  I'll give him a pass because he didn't know sidepiece was planning on murdering/disposing of his wife a second time after her return from the dead.

 

The adultery came when he had sex with Regina after Marian came back, because he was with Marian at the time.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Crimson Belle

[Arnella]

You all make good points (pro and con) but I don't care about the moral implications of the Regina/Robin/Marian triangle anymore; just glad it's over.  I hope they are all gone for good.  Did wonder why the merry men didn't go with him though - I imagine they are going to make that Wonderland guy more important now (ugh).

 

So good to see Belle do the right, logical, and non-stockholm-syndromey thing!  I can't wait to see Rumple get his evil on!  He's the only thing that keeps me watching.

 

I'm glad the Frozen thing came to a final conclusion although I have to admit that all my misgivings about their inclusion were completely off and they were a really good story arc.  I still wish they would concentrate on the main characters (still not much family time for the Charmings!) and give our beloved minor characters more story (Grumpy, Granny, RED).  However, the attraction of Ursula, Cruella (desperation and gin - HA), and my lovely Malificient (fan way before the movie!) is SO strong that I have to admit they have me there.

[Donny Ketchum]

I loved that Belle stood up to Gold, but I was equally ticked because she came to the wrong conclusions. That gauntlet showed a person's weakness, which in the hero's case, is usually the loved ones. Which makes that gauntlet pretty pointless. But Rumpelstiltskin's weakness is the dagger. Duh. Anyone can enslave him with it.

Oh, that's easy.  Belle didn't come to any wrong conclusion.  The gauntlet led her to the real dagger, not the fake one Rumple had made for her.  That was when she realized that she'd been played.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Donny Ketchum

[Arnella]

If Belle "defeated" the dark one, doesn't that make her the new dark one? I kept waiting for a shot of the dagger changing from Rumplestilskin to Belle.

An evil Belle. That could be interesting!

I couldn't agree more as I always thought that was the only thing that would make Belle interesting and still mourn for Lacey.  However with 3 evil ladies coming, she would be out-charisma'd, out-fashioned, and out-acted so bad (although with Emily that wouldn't take much). 

Edited December 16, 2014 by Arnella

[mustbekarma]

...There are two ways this story ends - either they’re right, the writers have lost their damn minds and have decided that the author of the book is some kind of god who can dictate a person’s fate however they want, which is completely horrifying and awful and in no way to I trust Once to deal with the horrific implications of everyone literally being puppets in the author’s little world.  Or option two, the rules already established about the book hold up, it changes to reflect your choices, it doesn’t cause them, and if you want a happy ending...

 

I was thinking. All the books in the library are blank. The sorcerer isn't the author, he's the librarian. Everyone writes their own story. They make their choices. They get a happy ending if they work for it. It's not handed to them. The reason the books were blank to Regina, Emma, and Henry was one for reason. None of the books they opened was their story.

 

I'm hoping this episode foreshadows option 2. Even Rumpel said it. You have to take your happy ending. Regina and Rumpel won't get theirs until they make the right choices.

Edited December 15, 2014 by mustbekarma

[Dani-Ellie]

From your lips (well, fingers) to the writers' ears, mustbekarma.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[scarynikki12]

You win the internet mustbekarma.

 

ETA: Maybe this means that the Sorcerer is Belle's True Love and they can live happily ever after being book nerds together.

[Gimme-A-Break]

I couldn't agree more as I always thought that was the only thing that would make Belle interesting and still mourn for Lacey. However with 3 evil ladies coming, she would out-charisma'd, out-fashioned, and out-acted so bad (although with Emily that wouldn't take much).

Nope - You must kill the dark one with the dagger to become the dark one.

[kili]

EW Interview with A&E - There are Spoilers Plus Discussion about the Episode.

 

We realize he doesn’t want to be anyone’s prisoner. His real mistake was not being honest with [belle] and telling her what he was doing.

 

Does the Belle we saw last night seem like the kind of Belle that would have been okay with his plan if he had only explained it? She'd happily gone along with his plan to hat Emma and the Fairies? That killing Hook for the spell ingredient  was peachy-keen? That's not the Belle I thought I knew. She may think that Rumple has a good heart, but she is not down with the killing.

 

He didn’t do it for villainous reasons, he did it so he wouldn’t have to be a prisoner again and it just got out of control.\

 

So, it's fine for Marian to go on a killing jag if she doesn't want to be frozen again? Oh, look, Hook has been enslaved and tortured and had a loved one die, does that give him carte blanche for murder and mayhem?

 

Got out of control? At what point was he in control? From the moment he started his plan he was turning people into mice and hatting them. He actually smiled when he found out what the missing ingredient in his hat cuisine was.

 

Seriously, these guys should start writing Press Releases for coprorate bad guys. "At no point was the intent to defraud people out of their money. We just came from a place of not wanting to be poor and hungry. It just got out of control." "The oil didn't spill for villianous reasons. We just wanted to be able to feed our children and using double-hulled ships and non-drunk captains made that a little less likely. It just got out of control." "Our only mistake was not telling you about the toxins we were putting in your drinking water that would give your chilrden cancer."

[Actionmage]

From kili's linked interview (bolds and italics mine) :

 

What can you tease about the next chapter for Hook and Emma?
HOROWITZ: I think Emma is understanding that Rumple had his heart. The next chapter for the two of them will be about where does their relationship go from here? And how do the new personal obstacles that we’ll see unfold for them in the second half of the season either aid or abet that relationship?

 

We've been right! The showrunners have no ideas what words actually mean!

 

Does Emma finally get her own place?
KITSIS: We wanted her to have her own place, but the cost and the budget was prohibitive, so it’s looking like season 5 now. We wanted her to have her own place from mini-camp of this year, and every time we try to do it, we just can’t afford it. So we don’t want to do it until we can do it well. But rest assured, Emma does need her own space.

 

Because women in their thirties, with tween-age sons, living in the loft/hovel with their parents and newborn brother aren't aware of this fact. Also, apparently, neither are we in the audience. Because we haven't been asking for that very thing since...2B/ the end of 3A?  At least there is lip service to wanting to do it nicely. But yeah, my first thought at seeing the part I italicized was 'Duh!'

 

added:

The episode had such few highlights, but I can say I enjoyed them. The rest goes into the 'Why?' file and ' Dangling Plot Thread' file. 

 

I may tune in to the premiere in March, but I'm not holding any hopes for it to actually be anything more than a nice appetizer. We've been getting mostly teases, pleasant bites of potential stories, but nothing really meaty in quite a while. It's like being invited to a multi-course meal and finding out it's just potato skins and spinach dip- tasty apps, yes, but not what you were expecting/ what was promised.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Actionmage

[YaddaYadda]

Better look like a freakin' palace by the time they can finally afford Emma's place.  I'm sure they'll come up with another brilliant idea that will blow their budget out of the water.

 

How do you not plan your budget?  

[Delphi]

From kili's linked interview (bolds and italics mine) :

We've been right! The showrunners have no ideas what words actually mean!

Because women in their thirties, with tween-age sons, living in the loft/hovel with their parents and newborn brother aren't aware of this fact. Also, apparently, neither are we in the audience. Because we haven't been asking for that very thing since...2B/ the end of 3A? At least there is lip service to wanting to do it nicely. But yeah, my first thought at seeing the part I italicized was 'Duh!'

That's bullshit. They have numerous sets they don't use anymore. It would not be that expensive to add a bed/couch. Hell, go get her furniture from Manhattan. Give her the sorcerers mansion. The savior gets a mansion.

[Dianthus]

I wish I could believe that Hook will get to righteously hand Rumple his ass "in the next life" (i.e., 4B). I really, really wanna believe that.

[shapeshifter]

A review I read was wondering if Cruella can shapeshift into a Dalmatian puppy. I never thought of that as a possibility.

I assumed it was one of her kidnapped puppies who had Stockholm syndrome and was doing her bidding

--but that was after I got over being confused at thinking, "Pongo!" and expecting Dr. Hopper to show up.

Cruella?? She's probably the lamest villain that Disney has. She's a fashion designer who wanted to make fur coats out of puppies, and she has no powers. Vera Wang would be a better villain.

Hee!

[Shanna Marie]

Or, you know, they could just say Emma has a place and then not show it. How often do we see inside Regina's place, Rumple's home or the hoveloft? Throw in a line of dialogue about moving and otherwise just show her having meals with her parents at their place and hanging out at the police station. Or use the same set as the loft, say it's a different apartment in the same building, and put different posters on the walls and different throw pillows on the sofa, which is shoved to a different spot.

[Mari]

EW Interview with A&E - There are Spoilers Plus Discussion about the Episode.

 

 

Does the Belle we saw last night seem like the kind of Belle that would have been okay with his plan if he had only explained it? She'd happily gone along with his plan to hat Emma and the Fairies? That killing Hook for the spell ingredient  was peachy-keen? That's not the Belle I thought I knew. She may think that Rumple has a good heart, but she is not down with the killing.

 

 

So, it's fine for Marian to go on a killing jag if she doesn't want to be frozen again? Oh, look, Hook has been enslaved and tortured and had a loved one die, does that give him carte blanche for murder and mayhem?

 

Got out of control? At what point was he in control? From the moment he started his plan he was turning people into mice and hatting them. He actually smiled when he found out what the missing ingredient in his hat cuisine was.

 

Seriously, these guys should start writing Press Releases for coprorate bad guys. "At no point was the intent to defraud people out of their money. We just came from a place of not wanting to be poor and hungry. It just got out of control." "The oil didn't spill for villianous reasons. We just wanted to be able to feed our children and using double-hulled ships and non-drunk captains made that a little less likely. It just got out of control." "Our only mistake was not telling you about the toxins we were putting in your drinking water that would give your chilrden cancer."

 

Responding in the Belle thread.

[Clawdette]

I may be wrong - and frequently am - but I don't think Emma and Hook have done the deed yet. There is always some type of interruption or obstacle and We haven't seen that Emma has been all-in up to this point.

I hope the show runners don't make the mistake that Bones made with having the action take place off-screen. Fans were outraged and I don't think the show has ever recovered.

[scarletregina]

To me, at this point, it's not even about the fact that Marian died and came back to life. Let's forget that that happened and just take the last 3 episodes (4? losing track here). Robin whinges on and on about how he can't be with Regina because he's married even though his wife is in a coma...only to change his mind and have crypt sex with her when his wife is out of commission...only to play the "sorry, but married" card when his wife comes back into commission (...only to choose Regina only after Marian apparently gives him permission to do so--there's no indication he would've chosen Regina without Marian's blessing). That's jerky no matter what other extenuating circumstances there may be.

 

At least imo. If I was the best friend of either the wife OR the lover, I would be seeing red and want to wring the guy's neck.

 

Ah, I get what you are saying now & it makes sense. Thanks for explaining! 

 

Marian's eventual blessing makes all of that drama seem so stupid. If he'd been more honest from the start everything could have been avoided... well, except for the pesky fact of Regina having previously killed Marian, but you know, that's all water under the bridge!

[Camera One]

In the Magic Door "Goodbye Frozen, don't let the door hit you on the way out" scene, why were Snow and Charming standing so far apart?  It was just weird.  So now that Snow has had a taste of letting the baby go, she's so over babysitting?  LOL at how Emma presumably went by to pick up her parents and Henry, so they can all deliver Elsa, Anna and Kristoff to the Airportal.  

 

Why didn't Rumple freeze Anna and take her memories of meeting him?  Why leave it to chance?  

Edited December 16, 2014 by Camera One

[dr pepper]

I think the wardrobe people meant for Cruella Dogskinner to look like Paris Hilton in the role for Halloween. But they got Courtney Love instead.

Also: when did she get magic?

[InsertWordHere]

That dalmatian could have been another animal or human transformed by Maleficent, who has been known to transform both herself and others into various creatures. Belle even meets another dog of hers later in the timeline. I was going to say he was less cute, but he's pretty cute as a human. 

 

That scene bothered me so much. They left a traumatized woman on the street sobbing. Horrible.

It's always bothered me too. At the time, I took comfort in thinking that Grumpy, who ran down the street moments later playing town crier about the curse, looked at the scene and asked everyone why they were letting sister cry in the street. That was back when I thought the writers actually remembered Belle's history with Grumpy though. And also when I liked Grumpy a lot more than I do now. 

[Rumsy4]

Why didn't Rumple freeze Anna and take her memories of meeting him? Why leave it to chance?

Probably because Anna has commanded him to not harm her or her sister when she wielded the Dagger.

[jhlipton]

Probably because Anna has commanded him to not harm her or her sister when she wielded the Dagger.

That is assuming, of course, that the writers remember that far back.

[darkestboy]

I liked it, not as much as the previous episode but definitely enough to make me look forward to the second half of the season.

Why Cruella, Ursula and Maleficent have all teamed up, I'm intrigued. Looks like a fun arc and Rumple getting them back together should be interesting too.

It's good that Rumple got his just desserts in this episode and that Belle grew a spine as well. Hope that bodes well for her in the second half of the season.

Emma joining Henry and Regina's operation over the Author is a lot more interesting than Emma/Hook or Regina/Robin, though both of those plots were handled well enough in this episode.

I'm gonna miss Elsa and even Anna and Kristoff but I do think it's right to end the Frozen arc for now and it was a good ending for the characters too, 8/10

[Mitch]

For a midseason finale that fell kind of flat. Loved Rump getting his comeuppence and Belle getting a back bone but of course it was all plot...(they should have shown Belle questioning Rump's motive all along, or at least since she forced him to find the Snow Queen, hell I would have been happy if she would have woken up and said, "So everyone's okay?" and he said, "Yes, I saved them all," to which point she gets a clue of his lies.)  The town line "curse," was bad...the show has pretty much shown as canon that when someone dies their magic dies too..why not just say its again our world pushing back against the magic and the weirdos to contain them?

 

 

Why Cruella, Ursula and Maleficent have all teamed up, I'm intrigued. Looks like a fun arc and Rumple getting them back together should be interesting too.


Emma joining Henry and Regina's operation over the Author is a lot more interesting than Emma/Hook or Regina/Robin, though both of those plots were handled well enough in this episode.

 

Emma and Regina do make a more interesting team then either of them with their mates...(tired of Hook and her together and people bitching that they don't get 42 of the 45 minutes to moon over each other and be "cute," Regina and Robin are a bore...) and I am NOT a SwanQueen, their dynamic is just interesting, two sides fo the same coin. 

 

I liked this arc as it was really centered around what this show with all its major faults is about..powerful women who either make good or bad choices. The men, including Charming, Hook and Robin are just there to hold their purses, to look pretty, and pretty much get knocked out early. They are window dressing but its about the women  and their dynamic (Rump doesnt count besides all the moaning and knashing of teeth of Mila and Belle, he comes off pretty asexual to me, which is as it should be...)  I like that we get a trio of bad women but have to say, the show is becoming like the 60s "Batman," show, which evil doer will appear next to be easily defreated. Ursala in particular has a really cheap looking costume.  I hope the Queens of Darkness turn on Rump as it never fails to entertain when he gets his ass handed to him by a woman.

 

The Charmings and Regina are back to be poor parents/care takers. Yes, lets let Henry run around a mansion with a portal in it, of whom we have no idea who owns it but we could guess its not a normal person. And of course, Henry has to ruin the fun of watching Emma and Regina get sloshed.. The Frozen gang were nice but glad to see them go..its nice to see two women on this show, or on TV at all, who love and support each other no matter what.

 

Was the Rump/Cruella exchange a shout out to Will and Grace or was it totally ripping them off with the "Gin and Desperation line,"  and the short reference...(though I do love that one the best...) Cruella doesnt work in the Enchanted Forest but I love her anyway and if she keeps insulting Rump I don't care.

[DeLurker]

 

I hope the author starts sending them creepy messages like "A" on Pretty Little Liars.

A is the first letter of Author and Disney owns both networks after all!

 

That would actually be hilarious enough for me to accept it.  A (we presume) teenage girl who terrorizes everyone in the most bizarre, yet horrifying, way possible?  I'm in! 

Hmm...Jefferson the hatter had a daughter Henry's age - she would probably be the right age.

 

I think the amount of cleavage they give a character is a direct relation to how much wardrobe hates the actor.  They most loathe EdR!

Edited December 16, 2014 by DeLurker

[Amerilla]

I'm not going to give a "good job, show!" because I'm 99.999% sure anything interesting or good in the plotting is completely accidental, but I did notice that Belle and Rumpel's breakup neatly inverted Milah and Rumpel's breakup - Milah left Rumpel because didn't want to leave their little village, Belle rejects him because he does want to leave their little village. Both times, his actions (or inactions) stem from the fear of going out into the big, bad world unprotected. And Hook is a key catalyst in both stories.

[OnceUponAJen]

Something I thought I would never see posted on the internet: We don't want them to make out for 40 minutes, we want them to have a conversation! This show has everyone tied in knots.

[Mitch]

Ah, they had a conversation and a make out in Granny's hallway of make out. They guys are there for support, they aren't that important on this show...(as we can see with the, lucky for us, reduced screen time of Henry as he approaches adolescence.)  Hook is like Stever Trevor, he is there to be kidnapped and threatened and for Emma or someone to save him at the last minute.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I liked this arc as it was really centered around what this show with all its major faults is about..powerful women who either make good or bad choices. The men, including Charming, Hook and Robin are just there to hold their purses, to look pretty, and pretty much get knocked out early. They are window dressing but its about the women  and their dynamic (Rump doesnt count besides all the moaning and knashing of teeth of Mila and Belle, he comes off pretty asexual to me, which is as it should be...)  I like that we get a trio of bad women but have to say, the show is becoming like the 60s "Batman," show, which evil doer will appear next to be easily defreated. Ursala in particular has a really cheap looking costume.  I hope the Queens of Darkness turn on Rump as it never fails to entertain when he gets his ass handed to him by a woman.

 

I like your take on Rumpel, Mitch, especially how entertaining it is when women hand him his ass.  And that he appears asexual, as it should be. 

[Curio]

Ah, they had a conversation and a make out in Granny's hallway of make out. They guys are there for support, they aren't that important on this show...(as we can see with the, lucky for us, reduced screen time of Henry as he approaches adolescence.)  Hook is like Stever Trevor, he is there to be kidnapped and threatened and for Emma or someone to save him at the last minute.

 

I'd hardly count a 15 second exchange where the only words Emma got to say were "Sorry, I thought if I did it quickly it'd be like ripping off a..." as a proper conversation after a near death experience.

 

And I'd agree about Charming and Robin mainly being there only for support, but I'd argue that Rumple and Hook are both pretty fleshed out three-dimensional characters. There was a good conversation in the other threads arguing this a while back, so I won't expand on it in here.

[KingOfHearts]

What was the point of Henry telling Belle about Operation Mongoose? Why did he feel the need to tell her about it? I did like how Belle pretty much said that Regina didn't need any author, but still.

[FormerMod-a1]

Not only did no one think to check-in on or comfort Belle, does anyone think she got her "Happily Ever After"?  ever?  Even when she was with Rumple? (aside from her, that is).  I can usually let this kind of thing slide - I'm really good at watching and enjoying then not thinking about it later and accepting it with no expectations for future story lines or fall out or anything.  But of all the things Regina and Henry overlook or forget about Happy Endings, I don't know why they can overlook this.  Except, of course, it doesn't fit with their narrative.  Then they'd have to deny the whole premise of their mission.  But it could be used to sway Regina back to evil or partially evil with a "Geez, even the good guys don't always get a happy ending, why should I even try?" kind of mentality,

[Dani-Ellie]

Related to that point (by which I mean it was the same scene and you just jogged my memory, KingOfHearts :)), has Henry ever called Snow "Gramma?" Because like, if he hasn't, why did Belle get the "Gramma" before Snow, whom he was living with at one point??

[Curio]

What was the point of Henry telling Belle about Operation Mongoose? Why did he feel the need to tell her about it? I did like how Belle pretty much said that Regina didn't need any author, but still.

 

Yeah, in an episode that was jam-packed to the max, that scene should have been cut down the most. Save 30-60 seconds by not having Henry in the scene at all and make Belle search for the suitcase on her own. She could have easily done what Henry did, climb the ladder, force the pile of things to fall, and find the gauntlet. And then we could have had those extra 30-60 seconds to give Emma just one realistic reaction to something going on around her.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Curio

[Curio]

Not only did no one think to check-in on or comfort Belle, does anyone think she got her "Happily Ever After"? ever?

 

This whole Operation Mongoose plan makes absolutely no sense because no one stops to realize that the good guys have pretty shitty lives too. Belle arguably had a way worse day than Regina in the finale, yet we're supposed to feel more sympathy for Regina because Emma goes to offer her shots and encourages her to find the author. There are plenty of heroes on the show who don't have happy endings either, so what makes Regina's pain so much more special?

 

Is this all going to accumulate into every single person in Storybrooke realizing they don't have their perfect happily ever after either and everyone asking for a better ending? And then the entire town explodes because of the happily ever after overdrive?

 

ETA: Sorry for the double post...

Edited December 16, 2014 by Curio

[txhorns79]

Cruella?? She's probably the lamest villain that Disney has. She's a fashion designer who wanted to make fur coats out of puppies, and she has no powers. Vera Wang would be a better villain.

 

I just find the addition of the character to be strange.  I mean, she's wearing a modern evening gown and fur coat around the Enchanted Forest, and her particular character has never been associated with magic or fairy tales.  I'll be interested to see where they go with all this, but am slightly wary of how they can make it work. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Cruella?? She's probably the lamest villain that Disney has. She's a fashion designer who wanted to make fur coats out of puppies, and she has no powers. Vera Wang would be a better villain.

She does well with what she gets though. Sure she doesn't have magic, but I'd say she's the most psychotic Disney villain of them all. I'm confident Once will give her magic or some other form of power. She'll be a neat character to twist because she's so off the wall compared to everyone else. The out-of-place-ness she has with the other Queens and the Enchanted Forest makes her intriguing.

Edited December 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Helena Dax]

I understand why Cruella doesn't seem to  fit in the OuaT world, but the moment we saw Pongo in the first or second episode, it was always a possibility.