S04.E12: Heroes And Villains

[Shanna Marie]

You know I've been wondering how if Robin isn't a villain, why he got screwed out of his happy ending here. Does the author hate Robin too? If the author is pulling the strings to make sure villains make stupid decisions that take away their happy endings, why wouldn't he have made Robin fall in love with his wife again instead of chasing after Regina?

And what about Marian? She's a hero who turned Robin into a hero, and yet she was separated from her family, imprisoned by the Evil Queen, then reunited with her family only to be zapped by a freezing spell, then discovered that her husband had started sleeping with the Evil Queen while she was frozen. Now she's not only been brought forward in time and exiled from her own world, but she's been shoved away from the part of the strange world that's full of people from her own world, and she's stuck with a husband she knows doesn't love her anymore who only went with her out of a sense of duty and obligation. Yeah, heroes get all the happy endings while the villains are screwed (not).

 

Plus, the story of Robin and Marian proves that the ending in the book isn't an ending and that having a happy ending in the book doesn't mean having a happy ending in life. The ending shown in the book for Robin and Marian was their wedding in Sherwood Forest. Did the book show Marian being captured by the Evil Queen, paraded around and tormented, then thrown in the dungeon and scheduled for execution? Did it show Robin as a grieving widower who had to try to carry on while feeling responsible for his wife's disappearance? And all that happened in the Enchanted Forest. The book showed a happy ending for Robin and Marian, and now they're stuck together in a strange world, knowing that he's in love with someone else and could barely be bothered to save her life. If the book differed so drastically from the real ending for them, why would Regina think the book dictates her eventual ending? And didn't the book show her triumphantly casting her curse, anyway? It didn't show her being defeated. Even the pages Henry burned just showed Emma being put in the wardrobe. The ending of the book was Regina winning, with just the tiniest bit of hope that the curse could eventually be broken.

 

I'm still trying to work out the logical leaps in the Rumple conclusion. The fact that Rumple had the gauntlet was Belle's big clue that he'd always chosen power over her because she'd thought he'd traded the gauntlet for her life, so him having the gauntlet apparently made that false. But he could have saved her, then gone back to steal the gauntlet back. If he'd done that, why would she be upset? It would be like a kidnap victim being angry because she was rescued and they got the ransom money back. And then there's the fact that random stuff ends up in the shop even if Rumple didn't possess it to begin with, so it being in the shop didn't necessarily mean anything. One thing that occurred to me was that maybe she realized he'd given the Queens of Darkness a fake gauntlet and that's how she figured out the fake dagger, but that requires a few too many leaps to happen offscreen, and even so, while I can see her being mad about the fake dagger, why would it matter whether the gauntlet was fake if he still saved her life? Was she mad that he didn't sacrifice for her even before they were together? I guess the issue was that she thought that was a sign that he could choose her over power, and she'd learned that he was always trying to have both.

 

I think we're missing about three scenes here -- something in the past that indicates how the gauntlet works, then Belle in the present actually doing something that shows how she came to the conclusions she did, and then Emma and company in the present making the connection they did between Rumple lying and there being an immediate threat.

[legaleagle53]

The power of the gauntlet is that it reveals people's weaknesses to the wearer of the gauntlet, and to many people (Rumpel and Cora, for example), love is the greatest weakness.  Rumpel's weakness was his love for the thing he loved most -- power.  Rumpel's power flows from the dagger at this point, so when Belle used the gauntlet to discover his greatest love (she thought it would take her directly to him), it took her directly to the real dagger instead.  That's when she realized that their entire marriage had been built on a lie, and she reacted accordingly by using the real dagger to banish him from Storybrooke.

Edited December 23, 2014 by legaleagle53

[Shanna Marie]

Rumpel's power flows from the dagger at this point, so when Belle used the gauntlet to discover his greatest love (she thought it would take her directly to him), it took her directly to the real dagger instead.  That's when she realized that their entire marriage had been built on a lie

I got that part. What we're missing is why she even used the gauntlet. She had to have some suspicion in the first place to bother using the gauntlet. She went straight from looking for another suitcase to pack for her honeymoon to seeing the gauntlet and having a shocked reaction, like its very presence was a bad sign. Then offscreen she apparently decided to use the gauntlet to test Rumple's greatest love/weakness and found the dagger. The way she phrased things in explaining what she'd discovered to Rumple made it sound like the discovery of the gauntlet was her big clue that she'd been wrong about him, that him giving up the gauntlet was the first time he'd saved her life, and at that moment she thought he'd chosen her over power, but the fact that he still had the gauntlet showed that he hadn't actually chosen her. So it sounds like discovering the gauntlet was a big "oh no!" that made her decide to test Rumple by using it. It's that "oh no!" I'm questioning, since him having found some way to save her life without giving a powerful object to Maleficent and friends is hardly a huge betrayal, unless it was just the fact that he let her think he'd given it up to save her rather than being honest about having tricked them.

 

Otherwise, she went straight from packing for her honeymoon to deciding to try to find what Rumple loved most.

[kingshearte]

If Belle "defeated" the dark one, doesn't that make her the new dark one? I kept waiting for a shot of the dagger changing from Rumplestilskin to Belle.

An evil Belle. That could be interesting!

I also think that would be a more interesting thing to do with Belle than most of what they have done, but I certainly don't see her killing him anytime soon. If she didn't do it here, I don't think she'll do it later.

 

Why did Gold need to have that (awful CG) broom walking through town instead of just animating it when they got to the house? Lame.

Maybe I missed something, but did the animated broom actually serve any purpose at all? I don't remember seeing it do anything other than wandering along in that one scene.

 

Does this fulfill the "the boy will be my undoing" prophecy, since it was Henry's clumsiness that led to Belle finding the gauntlet that set forth the chain of events that rendered Rumple to be powerless (therefore "undoing" his magic)?

Or was that already fulfilled during the Neverland arc when Henry having the heart of the Truest Idiot resulted in Rumple killing himself and Pan?

Or is that just going to be repeated every season?

Maybe, until it sticks.

 

Generally, I agree that this episode seemed rushed and glossed over a lot of important stuff. I didn't notice it that much while watching it, but the more I thought about it (and read all your thoughts on it), the more I realized how much we didn't see. Emma/Hook, Belle/dagger, various other things mentioned by others, all just glossed over, explained (sort of) after the fact, or just forgotten entirely.

 

I'm definitely on Team Captain Swan, and that kiss was super hot, but it wasn't quite enough. I didn't need to see them being all schmoopy for any extended period of time (or at all — it's true that they are not schmoopy people), but something. I do like the idea someone earlier had about showing her waking up from nightmares about it in 4B, and if they give us some kind of emotional payoff in the back half of the season, I'll be more OK with the lack of it here. But she really has been through a lot in what I think is supposed to be a fairly short period of time. Watching her mother get burned at the stake, dealing with her magic, watching her bf almost get killed and not being able to do anything about it (something I believe we've been told explicitly she fears), learning that stuff about her past, etc. Yes, she's pretty pragmatic, but that doesn't mean she has no feelings, and things do tend to catch up with one eventually. I don't need to see her become a sobbing mess or anything, but some sort of vulnerability and emotional something with Hook.

 

If I roll my eyes any harder about the idea that bad things happened to Regina in that book, they're going to get stuck back there.

 

And I just want to reiterate that I seriously hope they do something with Will in 4B. Not even because I give any hoots about him, but because his addition has thus far just been completely pointless. Surely they had something in mind when they brought him on board.

[Serena]

I got that part. What we're missing is why she even used the gauntlet. She had to have some suspicion in the first place to bother using the gauntlet. She went straight from looking for another suitcase to pack for her honeymoon to seeing the gauntlet and having a shocked reaction, like its very presence was a bad sign. 

I think it's because Rumple choosing her over the gauntlet was one of her "signs" that he was a good man after all. She never realized that he only "chose" her over it because he had every intention of going back for it, and seeing it in his shop made her wake up.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Serena

[The Cake is a Pie]

Perhaps she was doing the magical realm version of "he loves me, he loves me not" and decided to put it on for fun to see if it pointed to her as what he loved the most. Instead, it brought her to the real dagger. Sad trombone.

[Rumsy4]

I think it's because Rumple choosing her over the gauntlet was one of her "signs" that he was a good man after all. She never realized that he only "chose" her over it because he had every intention of going back for it, and seeing it in his shop made her wake up.

I agree. Besides, he never told her that he had the Gauntlet back. That realization, combined with mirror!Belle made her immediately think of the Dagger. Maybe she tried to summon him with the fake dagger. Of course, the gauntlet was superfluous. They should have gone for any of the other things they had set up through the season.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think it's because Rumple choosing her over the gauntlet was one of her "signs" that he was a good man after all. She never realized that he only "chose" her over it because he had every intention of going back for it, and seeing it in his shop made her wake up.

Wow, I didn't even notice that. Now her suspicion when she held it makes a heck of a lot more sense. Sounds like another plot element the writers didn't communicate clearly enough. I really didn't think it was something that would bother Belle that much, though. It's not like he was redeemed in the flashback.

Edited December 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I think it's because Rumple choosing her over the gauntlet was one of her "signs" that he was a good man after all. She never realized that he only "chose" her over it because he had every intention of going back for it, and seeing it in his shop made her wake up.

That makes her look kind of petulant, like it didn't count if he really didn't really sacrifice, even though he did save her life and show some vulnerability to the Queens in doing so. As I said, wouldn't it be a bad thing for the gauntlet to be in their hands? It's a win-win if he saved her and still got the powerful magical object back from the people Belle believed were more evil than he was. And there's no guarantee that the gauntlet was in the shop because Rumple got it back, since things tended to migrate to the shop when the curses were cast, even if he didn't already possess them. So it makes Belle sound like she's pouting that he didn't give up as much as she thought to save her life, even though he did save her life. The only real issue is that he let her think it meant more than it did instead of instantly telling her that he wasn't going to let those ninnies keep the gauntlet, but they weren't in a relationship at that time, so it's not that big a betrayal. It just means that she based a lot of her image of him on something that wasn't quite as big a deal as she thought it was at the time, but it's not like that undermined their entire relationship.

 

I get what they were trying to say, and I think Belle was right in realizing that Rumple had been lying to her, but the evidence as presented doesn't work that well for me. They skipped too many steps. Belle was such a true believer up to that point that I find it hard to believe that finding the gauntlet really was the tipping point after all the other stuff she's seen him do. She's seen him beating and torturing people, but the proof of how bad he is was that he got back the ransom he paid to free her from Maleficent?

[Camera One]

Maybe I missed something, but did the animated broom actually serve any purpose at all? I don't remember seeing it do anything other than wandering along in that one scene.

 

I vaguely remember it helped Rumple (and Hook) to find the Door Portal.  I'm not even sure what that walking broom is supposed to do... they never really explicitly spelled it out (I wouldn't be surprised if A&E don't even know).  I think it led them to the Apprentice's House as well in "The Apprentice".  They might as well have had Rumple turn Henry into that broom to show how evil he was.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

She's seen him beating and torturing people, but the proof of how bad he is was that he got back the ransom he paid to free her from Maleficent?

 

It does make her seem like a pouting, petty child. So he went and got the gauntlet back, so what? When he originally gave it up, there wasn't really a guarantee he could retrieve it from them, so he did make some sacrifice. I don't see why getting it back shows that he's really not the man behind the beast that she loves.  I guess we're supposed to only see that she used to gauntlet to determine that the dagger and his power were his true love not her, but if that's the case, why even show the gauntlet backstory at all?

Edited December 23, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

The story was a total tease too, since we never even saw why Rumple wanted the gauntlet.  I wanted to know but I also don't care enough to sit at the edge of my seat until November 2017 or whenever it is we'll find out.

[Curio]

So he went and got the gauntlet back, so what? When he originally gave it up, there wasn't really a guarantee he could retrieve it from them, so he did make some sacrifice. I don't see why getting it back shows that he's really not the man behind the beast that she loves.

 

I feel like we were missing an important piece of dialogue here. If Rumple had admitted to Belle that she was more valuable to him than some silly gauntlet, then her discovering it in Storybrooke and getting pissed would make sense.

[Shanna Marie]

The story was a total tease too, since we never even saw why Rumple wanted the gauntlet.

My guess was that if it showed the thing someone loved most, then that would help him make sure the curse got cast properly. Though it seems as though by that time he was already counting on Regina to cast the curse and she'd broken from him, so it doesn't really work in the timeline, but in general, after he figured out that Zelena was a bad curse casting candidate because she loved him most it would make sense for him to want to be sure to set up the right person and make sure he wasn't it.

 

We really should have seen the gauntlet used in the flashbacks so we could have had a better sense of how it worked in the present.

 

When he originally gave it up, there wasn't really a guarantee he could retrieve it from them, so he did make some sacrifice. I don't see why getting it back shows that he's really not the man behind the beast that she loves.

That's why I started speculating about the gauntlet he gave Maleficent being a fake while he kept the real one, and that being the clue that made Belle wonder if the mirror was right about the dagger being a fake, and so she used the gauntlet to figure it out, but that's way too many steps to take place offscreen.

[Camera One]

Deleted scene:

 

HENRY: Wait a minute... I remember something about that gauntlet. (brings out Book)  Wait, it's not here.  Oh look, here's grandpa removing some guy's tongue.  You were there too!

 

BELLE: Errh... oh yeah, forgot about that one.

 

HENRY: Hmm... here's Grandpa killing the mute maid.  I think it was after this.  Here's Grandpa stepping on that pesky cart driver who crashed into Daddio.  Oh here's Grandpa turning your old boyfriend into a rose and you snipped off part of him with scissors.  

 

BELLE: What did you just say?  I think the Gods just made me deaf temporarily.  

 

HENRY: Never mind, here it is!  See, Grandpa went back to confront the Queens of Darkness about the gauntlet.  Now I must drink this Memory potion so I don't remember anything about the Queens of Darkness when they become a threat in 4B.  Bottoms up!  

Edited December 23, 2014 by Camera One

[kingshearte]

We really should have seen the gauntlet used in the flashbacks so we could have had a better sense of how it worked in the present.

That would have required them to have thought of it before this episode.

[ShadowFacts]

The whole business of Belle being triggered by a gauntlet signifies to me (besides the writers pulling it out of the air) is that while she knew x and y she never let her mind go to z.  In other words, that's how denial works.  She said something in her speech to Rumpel that she had lost herself, I think that's where she got lost, in putting together what she saw plus what she suspected, and coming to the right conclusion.  Gauntlet was a clumsy way of getting there for the viewer, it made it look like that one thing triggered her. 

[YaddaYadda]

The whole gauntlet was really stupid when you had a perfectly good voice mail waiting to be HEARD BY ANYONE!  Still not over this.  I get they used the gauntlet to introduce the 3 new baddies (and maybe bring up Camelot again?), but seriously, why go through all the trouble of having Hook leave a heartbreaking message like that if it's never going to be heard?  Is it even a plot point for something?

[Mari]

The whole gauntlet was really stupid when you had a perfectly good voice mail waiting to be HEARD BY ANYONE!  Still not over this.

Plus, making it about the gauntlet made Belle's decision to seem less "This is the right thing to do because Rumple is doing wrong things." and more petty--"'I was wrong about how important I was to Rumple, so he must be banished."  The voice mail would have made Belle's decision seem less like she was getting  her revenge on, and more like she was stepping up and being the hero she's always saying she wants to be.

[OnceUponAJen]

Not over the lost voicemail, either. It would have been perfect if Belle had been in the back of the shop and overheard the whole thing. I would have loved to see the look on her face and the internal struggle over whether to believe Hook or continue to buy what Rumple was selling her.

Edited December 24, 2014 by OnceUponAJen

[Camera One]

Or Henry.  But apparently, Henry didn't even tell Emma that Hook went to fetch him during the Shattered Sight Curse.  And apparently Rumple knew all along what Henry was up to.  It's so nice this episode just rendered all of it pointless.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The story was a total tease too, since we never even saw why Rumple wanted the gauntlet.

 

I doubt it'll ever come up again. It's probably store away along with Pandora's Box and the Handcuff Candle.

 

 

What happened to the Black Fairy's wand?  Couldn't have been used to reverse the Shattered Sight Curse?

I don't think so. It's used for reactivating magic. (Reactivating the body switch, the time portal, etc.) Though, Rumple said you had to actually use the magic, so I'm not sure how it worked with the body switch.

Edited December 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

What happened to the Black Fairy's wand?  Couldn't have been used to reverse the Shattered Sight Curse?

[jhlipton]

Because look, Regina, the people around you are far nicer to you than you really warrant, considering how your actions have affected them. Plus, last season, she was all, "I can't be happy without Henry" to the point that she was willing to put herself under a sleeping curse rather than live without him. Now she has her son, and she's been shown shutting him out and pointedly ignoring -- and rolling her eyes at -- phone calls from the people who were taking care of him. 

 

This is why I feel sorry for Lana.  She's able to convey all this contradictory BS, but I'm sure she wants some kind of cohesive story.

 

That question links back to why did the Apprentice get so easily outmaneuvered by Rumple and Hook in the first place?  Seemed like a set up to me at the time.

 

Same reason that the mighty and ancient sorcerer known as "The Dragon" was killed so easily by Tamara: PLOT!!!

 

Perhaps she was doing the magical realm version of "he loves me, he loves me not" and decided to put it on for fun to see if it pointed to her as what he loved the most. Instead, it brought her to the real dagger. Sad trombone.

 

Now this would have been fun to see.  The "sad trombone" makes it special.

Edited December 25, 2014 by jhlipton

[KingOfHearts]

 

This is why I feel sorry for Lana.  She's able to convey all this contradictory BS, but I'm sure she wants some kind of cohesive story.

I can never tell with her interviews. She seems to roll with everything she gets.

 

 

Same reason that the mighty and ancient sorcerer known as "The Dragon" was killed so easily by Tamara: PLOT!!!

Yeah. In that scenario they wanted to prove Tamara was a threat by showing her killing a magical creature then killing August because the plot demanded her to be one of the Big Bads. Same kind of thing happened when Anna outdid what no one else could do - outdo the Dark One. It was there just to forward the plot.

 

 

Or Henry.  But apparently, Henry didn't even tell Emma that Hook went to fetch him during the Shattered Sight Curse.  And apparently Rumple knew all along what Henry was up to.  It's so nice this episode just rendered all of it pointless.

 

I thought for sure he'd find the hat in Gold's shop or unleash some kind of chaos. I do like the fact Rumple was onto him the whole time, but still it wasted a whole story thread. I can't imagine them ever bringing it up again, unless Belle takes over and keeps him as an employee. It's another Chekhov's gun that never saw the light of day.

Edited December 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I'm assuming Belle will be one of the people looking for the author.  I mean she's not a villain and she sort of just lost her happy ending with her lying coward.  She was pretty rational about the whole book thing when Henry told her about it.  I'm guessing things might change.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm assuming Belle will be one of the people looking for the author. I mean she's not a villain and she sort of just lost her happy ending with her lying coward. She was pretty rational about the whole book thing when Henry told her about it. I'm guessing things might change.

Well with Rumple and his Angels after the author, it would be the safe thing to try and stop them. Even if the book theory is probably false, there's no telling what kind of damage they'll do if they succeed in the slightest.

Edited December 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Delphi]

It was pretty nice of Belle to not remind Henry that his mother had locked her in an underground cell for twenty eight years and maybe it's not the book making her look like a villain. That Belle is a pretty nice lady.

[jhlipton]

IIt's another Chekhov's gun that never saw the light of day.

 

A "Chekhov's Shadow"?

[Dianthus]

Dunno why I didn't think of this sooner (and yes, it assumes facts not in evidence). This is my new head-canon: Rumple put a glamour or spell of invisibility on Hook so he could spy on the others at the town line without being seen. Makes about as much sense as anything else on this crazy show. 

[Rumbelle]

HELLOOOOO fellow Oncers!!!   I'm positively breathless with excitement to be here, as my obsession with this show is getting me weird looks of concern from everyone in my RL, and I neeeeeed kindred spirits to talk to!

In my impatience to post, I picked the lamest, most unoriginal user name ever.   But Rumbelle (and RC in general) is the true reason why my viewing of this crazy, corny little show made the leap from "casual entertainment" to "FULL ON OBSESSION".

And like all Oncers, I HAVE QUESTIONS!!!   Sooooo many questions!!   In spite of my eagerness to post, I did take the time to read this whole thread first, but I didn't see this particular plot hole (?) addressed, so maybe I zoned out and missed something obvious, but:

How did Rumple's angels know that he had a weak spot for Belle?   She was just the maid.   And this was the DARK LORD we're talking about.   Why on earth would they think he would care enough about his housekeeper to trade her life for something as valuable as the gauntlet?   Knowing him as they did, I'd think THEY would think that he would just say, "Yeah, whatever, squeeze her heart out, I can get another maid, but I can't get another gauntlet"?  

Why kidnap BELLE in order to manipulate him??

 

Edited January 29, 2015 by Rumbelle

[Shanna Marie]

Why kidnap BELLE in order to manipulate him??

Oh, that is a good point. I guess we were distracted by all the other plot holes. Yeah, that was the first time she supposedly realized he could care for something other than power (or so she thought). Apparently he'd never shown any inkling before that of caring. If even Belle was surprised he saved her, and she's the eternal optimist who sees the potential for good in everyone, why would the Queens of Darkness, who probably have a dark and cynical view of human nature, think he might save her? He's the Dark One who has a history of killing his maids when they become inconvenient. There's no reason they should have thought that he'd care enough to give up an item of power to save her.

[Mari]

She was only working there to hold up her kingdom's end of the bargain.  Maybe letting her just get taken and killed would've been considered not holding up his end of the deal?

 

Or, more likely, a plot hole that the writers didn't think about.  Huh.  Imagine that.  The writers missed something.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yeah, that was the first time she supposedly realized he could care for something other than power (or so she thought).

So weak. Rumple would have done the same trickery with any of his other possessions. Why simply trade away one item when you can get both later? Typical Rumple. I just can't stand the whole gauntlet revelation. Too contrived, not enough depth to hold any real emotional value.

Edited January 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[The Cake is a Pie]

Everything about the gauntlet, from past to present, was a big, fat fail.

[Rumbelle]

She was only working there to hold up her kingdom's end of the bargain.  Maybe letting her just get taken and killed would've been considered not holding up his end of the deal?

That's the only thing that makes ANY sense, however, Belle herself didn't even figure out that possible motivation the whole time she was captured ("Why do you care about me?"), AND, even if she was just being a dim bumb, when she asked that question, IF that was the answer, wouldn't Rumplestiltskin have just been like, "DUUUUH, Rumplestiltskin never goes back on a deal, dearie!"

I know.   Look at me, expecting this show to make sense. How precious of me!  But  I was really just wondering if I HAD missed something obvious...or if there was some logical fan-wank I hadn't thought of.

Thanks for the replies, I'm sooooo late to the game watching this show, that I didn't know if you all would be totally burnt out on discussing this episode already.  ;)

[Amerilla]

Yeah, that was the first time she supposedly realized he could care for something other than power (or so she thought).

 

It's tough, because they don't give us any framework for telling when in the ever-expanding period of time they spent together in the 'Skin Deep' era this flashback would fall.

 

BUT, anyway I look at it, it's a timeline fail. It was in the 'Lacey' flashback that she realized that he could care for something other than power, when he didn't kill Robin. The QoD flashback would have to be after that, because we know that the Robin flashback happened not long after she arrived at the Dark Castle, when she was still crying from homesickness.

 

 

 

Or, more likely, a plot hole that the writers didn't think about.  Huh.  Imagine that.  The writers missed something.

 

Or, you know, that. ^

Edited January 29, 2015 by Amerilla

[Rumbelle]

Yeah, I would imagine this pretty much happened RIGHT on the heels of the Robin Hood episode, with Rumple having a library-giving soft spot for her because she was the first person to see the good in him in...forever.

But it' not like anyone ELSE would have known that!  :p   Unless Hook and Emma blabbed to someone else about it while they were Time Traveling.   ;)  

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, it definitely had to come after the Robin Hood incident, since she was sassing him and acting like she knew he wouldn't hurt her. So the chronology seems to be that she started seeing good in him after Robin Hood (since not killing someone you've been torturing is proof of a good heart), and then this was the first time she thought he might care for her and that he might be able to choose her over power.

 

I just wish they'd built up to her big revelation better, with her seeing more clues and having other doubts, so it didn't look like she'd have been okay with everything else, but the fact that he somehow still had or had got back the thing he traded for her safety was the final straw. I mean, shouldn't finding out that he'd switched daggers on her and catching him in the process of murdering someone have been bad enough?

[Rumbelle]

I was surprised, at first, by the amount of Belle-hate here...and then I realized you guys were voicing something that had been niggling away at me like crazy, in the back of my head...the fact that Storybrooke Belle was a COMPLETELY different character from EF Belle, and Rumbelle was a COMPLETELY different dynamic (until that final scene).  

(I've binge-watched the show over the last couple of weeks, so maybe that's why it took me me a little longer to articulate it to myself than the long-term fans).

I couldn't care less about Rumbelle in Storybrooke.   I'm OBSESSED with them in the EF.   Maybe some of that dynamic between them will be present in the...er, present... once he (inevitably) returns?

I just wish they hadn't rushed into marrying them, and FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, don't let there be a Rumbaby on the way!!!

Edited January 29, 2015 by Rumbelle

[Mom x 3]

I couldn't care less about Rumbelle in Storybrooke.   I'm OBSESSED with them in the EF.   Maybe some of that dynamic between them will be present in the...er, present... once he (inevitably) returns?

I just wish they hadn't rushed into marrying them, and FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, don't let there be a Rumbaby on the way!!!

I think the EF Rumbelle is more interesting simply because Robert Carlyle could generate chemistry with a box of hair.  Which, if you think about it, is exactly what he is doing. 

I think the Rumbaby is the only thing that will keep him from turning on Belle in revenge.  He gets pissy when things don't go his way, and Belle turning on him was something he did NOT expect.  I loved when she told him off, and pitied him a bit.  He is a mighty coward, though.

And I just realized that Belle is now Emma's mother-in-law, and that made me cackle so loud I woke the baby.  Dammit. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by stecciem

[kingshearte]

And I just realized that Belle is now Emma's mother-in-law, and that made me cackle so loud I woke the baby.  Dammit. 

I don't know... Is the step-mother of your deceased ex-boyfriend who fathered your child still your mother-in-law?

[Shanna Marie]

And I just realized that Belle is now Emma's mother-in-law, and that made me cackle so loud I woke the baby.

I just attempted to draw a family tree for this show. It got complicated. I think new symbols for describing relationships might have to be invented.

[Mom x 3]

Yea, I forgot that Emma and Neal were never technically married.  My bad.

Maybe Rumple figured that since Mila ended up being a strong woman who ultimately knew what she wanted, that he would go in the opposite direction this time. 

I'm still trying to decide if the editing could have been used to pick up the slack for the poor writing (Belle showing up because of the gauntlet, somebody picking up Hook's heart). 

[Rumbelle]

Edited February 1, 2015 by Rumbelle

[Camera One]

Everyone eyes wide and shocked when Anna said that Rumplestiltkin was a liar was just laughable.  You don't say!  Even if Rumple was lying about not knowing Anna doesn't mean that there was an emergency.  Maybe if this episode had been extended to 2 hours, we would have seen everyone walking back into town debating whether Gold was really changed, and then "Oh my gravy, what on earth is happening in that clock tower!", with Emma breaking into a run and Snow saying, "Let me come too!  I've been wanting to ease back into my jogging routine!" followed by a quick "Elevator or Stairs" debacle.  Followed by Belle appearing and going, "How did I end up in the clock tower?  Oh my, what?!!  WHY DO YOU HAVE A DAGGER WHEN IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE IN MY GIANT ASS PURSE!!!!"

Edited February 1, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

I'm still trying to decide if the editing could have been used to pick up the slack for the poor writing (Belle showing up because of the gauntlet, somebody picking up Hook's heart).

I think the only place editing could have helped the episode is if they switched the Arendelle wedding scene with Hook's heart restoration scene. Otherwise, the editors can't do much with fixing an episode if they physically never filmed any important scenes for them to edit.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Curio

[FabulousTater]

I don't know... Is the step-mother of your deceased ex-boyfriend who fathered your child still your mother-in-law?

I think the word you're looking for is "unrelated". They have no relation whatsoever; legal, technical, or otherwise. Sex does not a family or familial relation make especially in the context of this show where the ex-boyfriend dumps the underage teenage girlfriend (that he has known for 3 months, tops, and she is too young to legally marry, actually) in jail and never looks back. He doesn't even set eyes on her for another 11 years. Ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends aren't anything but "exes" to each other and their personal blood family have no relation to the respective exes.

 

ETA: I just realized that the OP could've meant that sarcastically. Either way, I'm so tired of people trying to bend their minds into pretzels over what relation Emma has to Douchefire's family when the simple answer is none! Douchefire was Emma's ex-boyfriend. That is all. End. Of. Story. Emma is NOT RELATED to any of Douchefire's family; not his mother, not his pet rock from Neverland, not his father, Rumple, and she's not related to Rumple's concubines. Emma is not related to any of them by any stretch of the word.

Edited February 2, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Geeni]

 

I think the word you're looking for is "unrelated". They have no relation whatsoever; legal, technical, or otherwise.

 

Well, they were both parents to Henry. And before you say that Neal was never a father figure, think about how he didn't even know he existed in the first place. Which isn't his fault, btw. In fact, had he known about Henry, things probably would have turned out a lot differently than it did. And had he survived, Neal would probably wish to remain in Henry's life, as a co-parent. And that would still count as a relation.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Geeni

[KAOS Agent]

There's a relation to Henry, not Emma. Emma is in no way related to her baby daddy's father's wife, just as thankfully, I'm in no way related to any of my exes' families. There isn't even a legal tie as the two were never married nor planning to at the time of their separation. This is not a knock on Neal or his relationship with either Emma or Henry. It's a simple fact that unless some other tie exists, no one is related to their boyfriend's family.

 

On a topic related to this episode, why was Regina hanging out at Granny's being all mopey instead of locked up in her mansion like she did before? No one in town likes her, she wasn't there to drink and she didn't want Emma's or anyone else's company, so what the hell was she doing there?