S08.E07: Kill The Moon

[Tara Ariano]

 

In the near future, The Doctor and Clara arrive on a decrepit shuttle making a suicide mission to the Moon. Crashing on the lunar surface, they find a mining base full of eviscerated corpses, spider-like creatures scuttling about in the dark, and a terrible dilemma.

 

[ApathyMonger]

The voting thing was silly, and I'm not a big fan of Courtney, but otherwise I really enjoyed this.

[John Potts]

Loved it! Everything I hated last week was put right here* - the dilemma was genuine, nobody was stupid, Captain Hermione Norris was (perhaps) in the wrong here but was presented sympathetically (she was not just prepared to blow up the creature to save the Earth, but ready to die in doing so) and when presented with a potentially Earth shattering decision, Clara did something that so rarely happens - she put it to a vote. OK, so she ignored humanity's decision (and while I believe that humanity would vote to save itself, I really don't believe it would be as unanimous as that looked to be), but at least democracy was attempted. I also liked the fact that the Doctor stepped back and said that he wouldn't interfere with their choice. They even attempted some science, even if it was definitely powered by Handwavium, but hey, I applaud the attempt!

 

* I realise this one was in the can before last week's episode was broadcast, but it seems that way!

[AudienceofOne]

I wanted to like this. And I mostly did. I thought the Doctor deciding it was humanity's decision and buggering off was fantastic. I completely agreed with him. There's a point at which the Doctor isn't "saving humanity" but is merely making decisions paternalistically and I like that this Doctor seems to realise it.

 

Having said that, Clara's breakdown was just.... the last thing this show needs is more angst. I mean, it's not as if travelling with the Doctor is a job requirement or something. It's a choice. So just don't do it. I remember when Tegan left and I thought that was note perfect. She just said, "I can't watch more people die" and went home. So if this was Clara leaving the Doctor for good, I could have handled that. But judging from the final scene it isn't.

 

And since Pink's response was basically, "I tod you so" combined with some patronising psychobabble he didn't go up in my estimation.

 

Don't get me wrong - the idea of companion as Doctor cheerleader like Rose was is just as annoying. Her romping around the moon going, "this is so much fun!" would have been even worse. But this angsty, whinging companion is not just frustrating, it's kind of boring.

 

Apart from the companion stuff, I enjoyed the story even if the "bacteria" were just like every other "the base is under assault" bug like creatures from every movie ever. I particularly liked the ending. The creature hatching and then laying another egg was very old-school Doctor Who.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

I wasn't a big fan of Clara in this one.  I was trying to think if any of the other companions would have been as upset with the Doctor and I'm not sure there would be.  Donna maybe?  I don't know if any of them would feel patronized like Clara did. 

 

The Doctor was spot on about humanity needing to make the call.  I also think it was important for Humanity to get it wrong and to see they got it wrong. It forces them to rethink (I get that the Doctor wasn't completely sure about what happened, but I think from when he examined the baby he generally knew it wasn't a danger to Earth.)   10 years to get from a dilapidated museum shuttle to Bowie Base 1 isn't bad. (Speaking of, I wonder what Adelaide Brooks was doing during all this)

 

I'm reminded of Fires of Pompeii, with the hard decision needing to be made only this time the Doctor steps back. I have to feel that's deliberate, we haven't had any mention of the Doctor's face since Deep Breath but there's bound to be something on that track this season.  I need to think a little more about it. 

 

We've seen the Doctor has an innate sense of what has happened/will happen does he has a sense of what could be.  For example a lot of precognitives in media talk about seeing multiple futures and figuring out the most likely or able to guide things to that future.  Have we ever seen the Doctor work along those lines?  I just keep thinking we have a Doctor who has a far greater control of piloting the Tardis than we've seen in recent memory did he choose that specific location and time?  Or did Sexy put them here and he just went with it?

[NCChic]

I was completely disappointed in Clara in this one. If this were happening and she wasn't the Doctor's companion, would she have kept the light on? If she didn't know Twelve (or any one of the other regenerations), would she know what he's done (or not done) for humanity? The Doctor has done some terrible things post-Time War, as well as some great things. But he can't be there each and every single time (fixed points and all).

Clara needs to take her own advice and shut up.

I miss Rose. And Donna. Hell, even Martha at this point.

[mustbekarma]

I haven't cared for Clara, but I never actively disliked her, either. I just never connected. Tonight, however, I just screamed SHUT UP CLARA! during her rant at the Doctor. She annoyed the hell out of me this episode. The Doctor didn't annoy me this episode, but I don't really see how he honored humanity's choice. In the end, Clara just for everybody, didn't she? So humanity really didn't make the choice.

[Jenniferbug]

I feel like this devolved into a Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate, just the sort of topic I expect children's programming to cover.

Hate Courtney. Hate her. I haven't liked her any time she's appeared, and spending more time with her in this episode didn't change my opinion.

I'm ready for Clara to be done. I hope when she leaves, she gets to decide to stay behind and have a happy ending on Earth with Danny. I'm tired of companions dying or having some tragic end. Martha is the only exception to this in the new series.

I'm really not enjoying how they're writing 12. I love Capaldi as an actor, but really do not like this version of the Doctor. I'm bummed because he is capable of being so great, but the writing is not giving him the opportunity. I think he would have done better with someone like Donna as a companion.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Jenniferbug

[Lantern7]

Damn. Just . . .  damn.

 

I can't say that I blame Clara for being mad. The Doctor has turned into a bit of a dick, and he does deserve to be slapped so hard that he regenerates. It's not a knock against Capaldi . . .  I also see where the Doctor is coming from, but he's nowhere near as loveable as he once was. Can you imagine a prior incarnation abandoning the three women to decide humanity's fate? Okay, maybe Six, but he's the exception.

 

Personally, I can't believe we had an episode which may or may not have been cribbed from a Super Friends episode. I'm serious . . . scroll down to #5. Hollow moon, alien living inside. No bacteria spiders, but that's what I immediately thought about. And yes, I am a geek. Otherwise, I wouldn't be watching the show.

 

Nice that Courtney got a name. And maybe some perspective. As least she didn't bug as hard as the kids from "Nightmare In Silver." The bit about "Oh, my grandmother posted on Tumblr" was funny. Just saying.

 

Next week: did we learn nothing from "Voyage of the Damned"? When are we going to stop naming stuff after older stuff? Here's hoping we have less angst, even if we wind up seeing Missy again.

[Eolivet]

I zoned out of this for a little bit, but the ethical dilemma was really interesting. I could be way off, but I almost saw the "decision to end life" being made by women and the Doctor bowing out because it wasn't his decision to make as some kind of oblique abortion allegory. All the discussion of "It's a baby" didn't help matters.

 

One thing that bugged, though, was Clara seeming shocked that the Doctor couldn't see every last thing in time and space. It's not like this is her first rodeo -- wouldn't she have known that from traveling with Eleven?

[benteen]

I would have blown the moon up.  You just don't play Russian Roulette with the planet.

 

I'm kind of mixed on this episode, mainly because of Clara and her decisions.  It's certainly well-acted, presenting a very good dilemma and I do love a Doctor Who astronaut story.  The Moon being an egg is certainly inventive.  Liked that they took Courtney with them.  And hey, the Doctor has a yoyo again!  What that supposed to be the callback to a previous episode?  There was supposed to be one in this episode.

 

But like I said with Clara, you just don't play Russian Roulette with the fate of the planet.  Then her speech made me wish the Doctor would have just opened up the TARDIS doors and told her to get out.  In typical Moffat style, she threatens to slap him again.  And I agree that Danny was the one being patronizing at the end.

 

It's hilarious that Clara actually thought humanity would side with her vague statement.  Or that they would side with her even if she had given more information.  The fact that humanity wanted to blow it up with refreshing from a storyline standpoint.

 

"My granny used to post on Tumblr."

Edited October 5, 2014 by benteen

[futurechemist]

I thought this episode was awesome until the last 10 minutes, when everything kind of went crazy.  I really liked that there was a dilemma that reasonable people discussed.  And no side was made to seem evil or ridiculous.  And then the show decided to have its cake and eat it too.

 

The choice was presented as follows:  The Earth is not doing well because the moon is breaking apart.  If the moon breaks apart, the effects might range from wrecking the tides and satellites all the way to massive extinctions.  Choice 1 - kill the creature and save the Earth.  Choice 2 - do nothing and hope the creature doesn't destroy the Earth (directly or indirectly), but know there would be consequences.

 

And then despite the majority of Earth voting to kill the creature (which is reasonable, needs of many > needs of few, billions of people + billions of Earth animals > a moon creature + moon spiders), Clara decides not to.  And then not only does the creature, or the spiders, not do anything to hurt Earth.  The creature lays a new moon so that there's absolutely no consequences.  That feels like a deus ex machina to me.  The show cant spend 50 minutes building up how horrible a choice there is, and then say "by the way turns out 1 of the options had no downside whatsoever"

 

I'm also not sure what to make of Clara's outburst.  I like that this Doctor knows when to step back, unlike 10's Lonely God or 11 getting involved with the space whale.  So I think Clara's reaction was overblown.  She's seen how dangerous the universe is, is she surprised that sometimes bad things happen, or people have to make tough choices?

 

But other than missing the landing, I thought the episode was good.  And Capaldi got to be a better Doctor, expressing awe at the universe.

 

Is Clara in next week's episode?  She was conveniently left out of all the previews.  And this seems like the episode mentioned right after Amy and Rory's wedding, Egyptian goddess on the Orient Express.

Edited October 5, 2014 by futurechemist

[Suzysite]

 

I miss Rose. And Donna. Hell, even Martha at this point.

I miss Matt Smith.   I just do not like this doctor at all.  And I especially hate Courtney.  She's a show killer.  My beloved Doctor Who is rapidly becoming insufferable and no fun to watch.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I loved this episode.  It might be ,my favorite episode of the season.  I am not a Clara hater so she  doesn't really bother me when she is acting like a real person and I thought she did in this episode.  I liked the astronaut and the teenager (both whose name escape me.)  I actually really liked the idea that the fate of Earth  basically rested in the hands of three women.  Doctor Who isn't always kind to its females but when it is good it is really really g ood. 

 

I loved the idea that the moon is actually an egg.  (Not green cheese) .

 

I liked that Doctor left the decision up to Humanity and Humanity made the wrong call but in the end looking up and seeing something beautiful is what changed the direction of humanity and is what makes us endure until the end of the universe.

 

Plus the line , "I don't kill Hitler,  I have never killed Hitler."

 

Also "I'll hit you so hard you'll regenerate."  The doctor did trick Clara into making a horrible decision and then disregarded it.   Like Pink said he was eventually going to push her too far; and the fight was the outcome of him doing just that.  But also Pink said.    "You are never finished with anyone when they can still make you angry."  

 

These are the kinds of episodes I like.  

Edited October 5, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[Kalliste]

I feel like this devolved into a Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate, just the sort of topic I expect children's programming to cover.

Me too.. I couldn't believe they'd shove that in there.. I guess someone on the team wanted to get their pro life thoughts out into the world. That was a bit of a downer for me.. yes it was a baby but it was potentially going to be the end of the earth! I was happy when the people of earth decided it should be killed.. although I somehow doubt every single light would have gone off.

 

I enjoyed the episode, liked having Courtney along for the ride and that the Doctor decided he was out on the decision.

 

They could have ended it there, YAY the world exists and the moon is a giant egg... but no, Clara had to have a little tanty. I wish the Doctor had just told her to get out then, go live her normal, boring life.

 

I assume this means no companion next episode, hopefully.. but I guess she'll be back at some point.

[ketose]

The yoyo was indeed a callback to Tom Baker. On BBC America, there was a clip of Peter Capaldi talking about how his daughter's boyfriend had to teach him to use a yoyo.

 

This episode had it all with callbacks to another Doctor, astronaut plotline #7, the Doctor putting children in danger, Clara making the decision for everyone (a la The Beast Below). Best of all, Clara is done traveling with the Doctor. Time for a new companion!

 

More seriously, Twelve is becoming the boyfriend trying to keep the relationship alive long past the point where she's found a new fella. The only difference between Pink and say Rory or Mickey is that Danny doesn't see the Doctor as a rival for attention so much as a charismatic influence who could put her in danger. The story arc is suffocating the rest of the season right now. The only out I can see is Clara leaving. Hopefully, the Doctor can find someone more worthy of his temperament.

[foreverevolving]

Personally I loved this episode.

i loved the moon is an egg idea. I enjoyed Courtney, and ms. astronaut.

but most of all i actually enjoyed clara. I never not liked her, not did i love her, but tonight i was finally able to relate and feel her. she's in difficult position. similar to the one several past companions has been on, she started with one doctor who had his own personality and what not and now has to adjust to a new very different one.

i mean, 3 was different from 4 (Sarah Jane) 10 was quite different from 9, and 12 is very different from 11. it sort of like if you had a friend who suddenly had a complete personality transplant and while he is kind of the same he really isn't. and i think Clara is still adjusting to the change of personality.

I mean she pretty much said everything we've all been thinking about 12 since the season started.

I don't think we're with Clara quite yet, as Danny said she is not done with the doctor yet. She's mad at the doctor maybe even hates him a bit, that means she still has some sort of feelings towards him (not romantically i think we're way past that), she still cares. I think she just needs some time off.

that being said i am writing this without reading any spoilers so i may be wrong.

 

I finally look forward to see what next, this season and doctor has been touch and go for me. but this episode is making me hopeful.

and was it just me or has the doctor alluded to Courtney becoming the president? i may have misheard him. i still have troubles sometimes understanding Capaldi's accent.

Edited October 5, 2014 by foreverevolving

[ketose]

Personally I loved this episode.

i loved the moon is an egg idea. I enjoyed Courtney, and ms. astronaut.

but most of all i actually enjoyed clara. I never not liked her, not did i love her, but tonight i was finally able to relate and feel her. she's in difficult position. similar to the one several past companions has been on, she started with one doctor who had his own personality and what not and now has to adjust to a new very different one.

i mean, 3 was different from 4 (Sarah Jane) 10 was quite different from 9, and 12 is very different from 11. it sort of like if you had a friend who suddenly had a complete personality transplant and while he is kind of the same he really isn't. and i think Clara is still adjusting to the change of personality.

I mean she pretty much said everything we've all been thinking about 12 since the season started.

Worst transition for a companion has to go to Peri from Five to Six. He was pretty rough with her.

[Kalliste]

 

I finally look forward to see what next, this season and doctor has been touch and go for me. but this episode is making me hopeful.

and was it just me or has the doctor alluded to Courtney becoming the president? i may have misheard him. i still have troubles sometimes understanding Capaldi's accent.

I think he did say she becomes the president. Thats how I heard it too.

[miles2go]

Good episode!  It drug a bit at first what with all those spiders skittering around, but definitely picked up once the Doctor figured out the truth.  I very much liked his decision to bow out and leave it up to them.  

 

Also liked the yo-yo, Courtney, and the desperate astronauts sent to do a desperate act.  Didn't much care for Clara's tantrum at the end, although I could see something like that was going to come eventually.  And, again with the slapping thing!  Although at least she didn't actually do it.  

[MadMouse]

No stakes or consequences at all as usual. Kill the moon or let it live doesn't matter since both choices end up with the same result. Its why I hated Day of the Doctor's retcon. Sometimes people have to make the tough choice, the lesser of two evils. RTD understands this, Moffat doesn't. Giving the characters a constant out in their decisions is cowardly writing. The blonde astronaut was absolutely right she's the hero of the episode. And don't even get me started on the abortion subtext of the episode. My g/f almost threw the remote at the TV when Clara stopped the abort because of the baby.

 

Capaldi's Doctor's still doesn't have any characterization beyond dickish. I'm expecting some big exposition dump to explain it all at the end of season I just don't know if I'll care by then. Clara's growth still feels tacked on but Coleman has been brilliant with everything she's been given that I can go with it. Her telling the Doctor off was the highlight of the episode, the only thing that would have made it better would have been had she called him out on his hypocrisy about "your planet , your decision" and reminded him of her part in saving Gallifrey. 

 

Not a terrible episode but way over hyped by all the fan sites.

 

 

[Pazlovejoy]

How is it that the Doctor deciding to step back and let humanity decide it's own fate equals the Doctor disrespecting Clara? It seems like the opposite to me. Instead, her tantrum seemed like an emotional response to an intense situation, not riteous anger over the Doctor's behavior. The fact that she turned her emotional response into an unfair accusation doesn't endear her to me. I think I'm ready for Clara to go.

[NCChic]

I think he did say she becomes the president. Thats how I heard it too.

Apparently, you don't have to be American to be President in 35 years....

And did they say that they pulled the shuttle from an exhibit? Or did Moffet forget that we ended the shuttle program?

[truther]

I really enjoyed the first 45 minutes.  Capaldi was great, the story was familiar but good, the show moved along well.  So that's a good thing and hopefully they can build on that success the rest of the season.

 

The last 15 minutes, for me, were just one WTF moment after another.  I didn't buy the Moon as egg idea.  It seems impossible not to have been noticed already if it is.  Heck, it's just impossible.  It made me think of that movie The Core from a few years back.  The new egg to replace the blowed-up Moon was just a little too magic wand-y for me.  How can a space creature that hatched from the Moon then lay an egg the size of the Moon?  And Clara's fury at the Doctor at the end didn't make sense for me at all.  I'm honestly not sure what she's so mad about and I certainly didn't sympathize.  It just felt like another one of these forced relationship milestones that just happen because the show wants them to, without making any coherent sense. 

[Mr. Simpatico]

I'm really not enjoying how they're writing 12. I love Capaldi as an actor, but really do not like this version of the Doctor. I'm bummed because he is capable of being so great, but the writing is not giving him the opportunity. I think he would have done better with someone like Donna as a companion.

I don't think Moffat really has a handle on the Doctor he created other than...he's supposed to be a tool. This is the most a-holish I've seen the Doctor (outside of possibly Six strangling Peri) and previous Doctors had an excuse. One/Hartnell was (as it turns out) a grumpy young man (in Gallifreyan terms) pretending to be old and he didn't know humans yet. Barbara and Ian changed him. Six was a regeneration gone wrong and a reaction to super-nice Five and even there by the end of his second season (not to mention the wonderful stuff Big Finish has done with him) Colin Baker's Doctor became somewhat sympathetic. Peter Capaldi's Twelve though is a man who has lived thirteen previous lives, has all the experiences of such, has just been given a whole new set of regenerations (mentioned in this very episode) and is a jerk to everyone for no known reason. There's a fine line between eccentric and obnoxious and I think 12 veers away over to the latter.

 

But what does it matter, this episode was all about Clara (again!) and the Doctor just basically has a cameo. I can't remember an era, even under Moffat with the Ponds and River Song, when the companion has so dominated the show.

 

No stakes or consequences at all as usual. Kill the moon or let it live doesn't matter since both choices end up with the same result. Its why I hated Day of the Doctor's retcon. Sometimes people have to make the tough choice, the lesser of two evils. RTD understands this, Moffat doesn't. Giving the characters a constant out in their decisions is cowardly writing. The blonde astronaut was absolutely right she's the hero of the episode. And don't even get me started on the abortion subtext of the episode. My g/f almost threw the remote at the TV when Clara stopped the abort because of the baby.

 

Yes. I was thinking of Day of the Doctor too (with all those Gallifreyan children changing the Doctor's mind). Here Courtney and particularly Clara are actually cool with millions of people (including children) dying (and if the moon really disappeared thats what would happen) and there are zero consequences to such their actions. Because it was OBVIOUS the moon-egg would instantly be replaced by another moon-egg! What the....

 

Though I didn't mind the Doctor not deciding. That is actually in character going back to his face-offs with the Meddling Monk who did just that.

 

Also, as a Yank, maybe I've overthinking some kind of throwaway joke (though I doubt since they nodded to a female US President in 2049 and one who never travelled in space) but the writer doesn't know much about the US Constitution (which requires a President to be both native-born and a long-term resident) if he thinks Courtney will be US President in 2049. Given the state of American politics and how notoriously hard it is to change anything explicitly in the Constitution I doubt extremely that rule will have changed by 2049 (or possibly ever). I know its a little thing but just as I dislike it when American shows get foreign laws wrong the opposite is true.

[benteen]

How is it that the Doctor deciding to step back and let humanity decide it's own fate equals the Doctor disrespecting Clara? It seems like the opposite to me. Instead, her tantrum seemed like an emotional response to an intense situation, not riteous anger over the Doctor's behavior. The fact that she turned her emotional response into an unfair accusation doesn't endear her to me. I think I'm ready for Clara to go.

 

Because Clara is a "ME ME ME!" personality.  If the Doctor was being patronizing, then so was she for making a decision the rest of humanity rejected.  It was ridiculous for the Doctor, Clara, and Courtney to de judgmental about the Earth wanting to "destroy" the creature.  It literally was a one life against billions decision.  The Doctor at least stepped back but Clara basically fired a gun at the Earth not knowing if it contained a blank bullet.

 

RTD definitely understood decisions have consequences.  The Waters of Mars (a companion piece to this episode in a lot of ways) is proof of that.

Edited October 5, 2014 by benteen

[Guest Accused Dingo]

How is it that the Doctor deciding to step back and let humanity decide it's own fate equals the Doctor disrespecting Clara? It seems like the opposite to me. Instead, her tantrum seemed like an emotional response to an intense situation, not riteous anger over the Doctor's behavior. The fact that she turned her emotional response into an unfair accusation doesn't endear her to me. I think I'm ready for Clara to go.

 

 

Because you give 3 people the choice: Destroy a life form and save the earth.  two out of the three of them was to save the life form.  Then Clara realized the astronaut was kinda right and decided to leave the decision up to all of earth who agree with the astronaut and kill the life form.  So......Clara did stop it at the last moment being who is she (and every single one of The Doctor's past companions would have done the same thing so don't get why people are hating Clara for it except that right now for many Clara can do no right.  She can make all the right decision.  Do all the right things.  And people will still find reasons to hate her.)   and the Doctor suddenly shows up.  

 

I'd be mad at him too.  He was a jerk the episode.  As a matter of fact he has been a jerk for awhile now.  I kinda liked the fight they had.  The Doctor had a point that it was really human's decision on what to do; but Clara had a point as well and with Pink whispering in her ear about the Doctor pushing her too far one day......

[ketose]

There's already speculation that there's a non-American as the American president.

 

Chester A. Arthur.

 

I didn't get the pro-life vibe so much as it being another "The Beast Below." There was a big unique alien creature whose death would potentially save millions (or billions) of lives, but its life ended up making everyone better off. In the case of the Star Whale, Amy actually used some reasoning to make the decision for everyone. Clara just decided that the Doctor wanted her to save it. I'm pretty sure many of us think that Clara saved it because of the Doctor and not to prevent genocide.

 

Also, the moon creature must be part tribble, being born pregnant. My question is how in the hell did it gain mass in space? Did it absorb an asteroid?

[Dust Bunny]

 

I would have blown the moon up.  You just don't play Russian Roulette with the planet.

Agreed. I know that's not very Doctor Who-esque. The Doctor usually finds a third way through it (that's better than choice a or b), but I would have pressed the button.

 

Regarding the third way:

 

 

The creature lays a new moon so that there's absolutely no consequences.  That feels like a deus ex machina to me.  The show cant spend 50 minutes building up how horrible a choice there is, and then say "by the way turns out 1 of the options had no downside whatsoever"

 

This really bothered me this time. Most episodes have some form of deus ex machina (the Doctor's third way), but I'm usually cool with it. This one seemed to make the whole episode pointless. When Courtney said "oh my gawd", I just thought "how lame is that?"

 

I really didn't like this episode. It fell flat for me from start to finish. I like Capaldi, but I think Tennant's 10 or Smith's 11 would have made this episode work better for me. They would have expressed righteous anger. Capaldi's 12 seems to carry more apathy. That probably led to my apathy. Huh... interesting.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

There's already speculation that there's a non-American as the American president.

 

 

Did they actually say American President.  I am not sure about Doctor Who....I am not a purist or a person who remembers details but other SCIFI Shows do talk about Humanity eventually coming together and forming a world government.  World President?  

[ohjoy]

I don't get it. I don't get what was wrong with the Doctor letting the humans decide, I don't get what was so evil about Clara last-minute "Wait! This is wrong!" I don't get the abortion-conflict implications -- this seemed like a rehash if "The Beast Below," if anything. I don't get why Clara freaked out at the Doctor at the end, but I also don't get why her conversation with Danny is considered "patronizing" rather than sympathetic or at the least understanding.

All that being said, I wasn't really into this episode. Calling them "germs" isn't any excuse for me -- I'm so over spider-like creatures. And apparently there was so much about this episode that I didn't get, that I guess I just didn't "get" the episode. Not actively displeased, just not all that interested.

[FormerMod-a1]

Because you give 3 people the choice: Destroy a life form and save the earth.  two out of the three of them was to save the life form.  Then Clara realized the astronaut was kinda right and decided to leave the decision up to all of earth who agree with the astronaut and kill the life form.  So......Clara did stop it at the last moment being who is she (and every single one of The Doctor's past companions would have done the same thing so don't get why people are hating Clara for it except that right now for many Clara can do no right.  She can make all the right decision.  Do all the right things.  And people will still find reasons to hate her.)   and the Doctor suddenly shows up.  

 

I'd be mad at him too. ....

I don't understand how the Doctor showing up after they made the decision, after the "critical hour" is a jerk move.  Was he supposed to wait for them to die as the egg hatched?  let them float around in space in the shuttle if it survived in one piece?  And if so, for how long?  When was the right time to come back that wouldn't make it a jerk move?

[ketose]

The spider germs reminded me of the macroviruses from Star Trek Voyager, which is probably not what DW wants to emulate.

[Lugal]

Personally, I can't believe we had an episode which may or may not have been cribbed from a Super Friends episode. I'm serious . . . scroll down to #5. Hollow moon, alien living inside. No bacteria spiders, but that's what I immediately thought about. And yes, I am a geek. Otherwise, I wouldn't be watching the show.

OK, I called it, saying the moon's an egg, but thinking this seems familiar. I kinda remembered that it was a Superfriends ep.

I could see bits of the brilliant Doctor that Capaldi should be shining through. Unfortunately the focus on Clara sort of distracted from that. Couldn't we get a couple of scenes of the Doctor to get some insights into his reasoning for stepping back, instead of Clara and Danny's love life. Her tantrum near the end was bad. The Doctor let her make a decision about the future of humanity and I think of how Donna was willing to stand next to the Doctor in "Fires of Pompeii" and accept the decision with him.

And the whole kill it and everything's fine versus let it live and it could kill us all (but turns out not) dichotomy is just terrible writing.

[Kalliste]

Did they actually say American President.  I am not sure about Doctor Who....I am not a purist or a person who remembers details but other SCIFI Shows do talk about Humanity eventually coming together and forming a world government.  World President?  

I don't think he did at that point but earlier I'm pretty sure Clara mentioned the American president which is where the he/she thing started.

 

 Clara just decided that the Doctor wanted her to save it. I'm pretty sure many of us think that Clara saved it because of the Doctor and not to prevent genocide.

I'm more inclined to think that Clara did it to save herself more than anything. The Doctor hadn't turned up to save her within the hr so she stopped it before she would be killed.

[TheGourmez]

That was a good episode. And also the episode that proved to me that Moffat really is a misogynist--I honestly did not think so before. For me, it was blatantly an abortion metaphor from the get-go and they said at least 3 times in the episode that the choice to let the baby live was the "right" one. There may have been shades of grey in the decision-making process, but after the fact, letting the moon baby live was definitely shown to be right. I mean, it led to humanity spreading out among the stars and living until the end of time! Of course it was portrayed as the right decision. If they just wouldn't have used that exact terminology of right and wrong, maybe I wouldn't be so pissed off about it, because it *was* a good episode. But it was not meant to leave the viewer wondering what the right decision was. And that's wretched to me.

 

It's even more wretched that the writing tried to excuse the misogyny by spelling out that it was womenkind's choice to make. Oh, how gracious of you, Doctor, to let the women decide what to do with a child in an egg that may have grave consequences for them if brought to term. How progressive. Yeah, it might have been if the "right" choice wasn't made so obvious afterward.

 

Between the egg, the baby, the women being so clearly put in charge of the decision, and the bright flashing "aborted" once Clara and Courtney stopped the nukes, I don't know how it's possible not to view it as an abortion metaphor. It seemed bright as day to me.

[MadMouse]

Because you give 3 people the choice: Destroy a life form and save the earth.  two out of the three of them was to save the life form.  Then Clara realized the astronaut was kinda right and decided to leave the decision up to all of earth who agree with the astronaut and kill the life form.  So......Clara did stop it at the last moment being who is she (and every single one of The Doctor's past companions would have done the same thing so don't get why people are hating Clara for it except that right now for many Clara can do no right.  She can make all the right decision.  Do all the right things.  And people will still find reasons to hate her.)   and the Doctor suddenly shows up.  

 

I'd be mad at him too.  He was a jerk the episode.  As a matter of fact he has been a jerk for awhile now.  I kinda liked the fight they had.  The Doctor had a point that it was really human's decision on what to do; but Clara had a point as well and with Pink whispering in her ear about the Doctor pushing her too far one day......

 

Rose was willing to let the Doctor kill everyone in and around Downing street to save the Earth. Donna pushed the button with the Doctor to destroy Pompeii.

[ZoqFotPik]

First of all, was really necessary to drape either a serape or poncho, I couldn't tell which, over one the chairs in the mining station? I realize they said it was Mexican financed and operated, but was that really necessary? 

 

And then not only does the creature, or the spiders, not do anything to hurt Earth.  The creature lays a new moon so that there's absolutely no consequences.  That feels like a deus ex machina to me.  The show cant spend 50 minutes building up how horrible a choice there is, and then say "by the way turns out 1 of the options had no downside whatsoever" 

This sums up my thoughts on the episode perfectly.

 

And did they say that they pulled the shuttle from an exhibit? Or did Moffet forget that we ended the shuttle program?

There was a line about the last shuttle being in a museum and a couple of lines about the shuttle being outdated, so it seems he was aware that the program has ended. Also, it was 10 years between the Mexicans last transmission and their arrival, so it's possible that while it was newly built, it was based off of the original plans.

 

and was it just me or has the doctor alluded to Courtney becoming the president? i may have misheard him. i still have troubles sometimes understanding Capaldi's accent.

I thought this was the Doctor just being a dick. The whole episode started because Clara was mad that he told Courtney she wasn't special. So now she's the first woman on the moon and so 'Super Special' that she can become the President of United States, except that she's not and won't/can't.

[shapeshifter]

I feel like this devolved into a Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate, just the sort of topic I expect children's programming to cover..

Me too.. I couldn't believe they'd shove that in there.. I guess someone on the team wanted to get their pro life thoughts out into the world. That was a bit of a downer for me.. yes it was a baby but it was potentially going to be the end of the earth! I was happy when the people of earth decided it should be killed.. although I somehow doubt every single light would have gone off..

And yet, the last minute decision to save the "baby" was done by pushing the "abort" button. Was that supposed to be simple irony?

The spiders seemed to have nothing to do with the egg plot other than an excuse for a bit of horror reminiscent of that really old movie whose name I can't recall. I think there was a throw away line from The Doctor about the spiders existing because of warming on the moon because of the egg, but, if so, killing the egg/baby/moon would have meant killing them--but I guess they were deemed not worthy of the status of "life" forms because they were just big ass bacteria.

I barely recognized Hermione Norris from the wonderful-but-canceled Outcasts, even though it was only 3 years ago that she starred on it.

[ganesh]

Having said that, Clara's breakdown was just.... the last thing this show needs is more angst. I mean, it's not as if travelling with the Doctor is a job requirement or something. It's a choice. So just don't do it.

 

I thought this was a proper Doctor Who episode until this point. Isn't this the point of the show? The companions step up and show courage they didn't know they had? The afterward though? Fuck off Clara. Really. She's treated traveling with the Doctor like a chore. Then go away. I can get she was overwhelmed, but whatever. I know the Doctor has been mainly grumpy this season, but I think he was fine here. I think he knew all along what Clara was going to do. 

 

I was trying to think if any of the other companions would have been as upset with the Doctor and I'm not sure there would be.  Donna maybe?  I don't know if any of them would feel patronized like Clara did.

I'm reminded of Fires of Pompeii, with the hard decision needing to be made only this time the Doctor steps back.

 

I thought of Pompeii too. I think Donna would have stepped up. She wouldn't have held a vote. She would have said, "Don't. You. Touch. *Those*. Bombs." And that would have been that.

 

Between the egg, the baby, the women being so clearly put in charge of the decision, and the bright flashing "aborted" once Clara and Courtney stopped the nukes, I don't know how it's possible not to view it as an abortion metaphor. It seemed bright as day to me.

 

This did not even cross my mind until I read this. And I think that's the problem, in general, not with the interpretation. Every episode has to be A Thing. It can't just be an episode of Doctor Who. It's like there's no such thing anymore. This should have just been an episode where the companion is scared but shows courage and is able to make the right choice. Sure, she's overwhelmed, but learns something about herself in the process. Isn't that the show?

 

I really didn't like Clara being so cavalier about 'slapping a new regeneration' either. Regenerations have been a big deal. Even Rose was freaked out when Ten --> Ten and she was around for the previous one.

[futurechemist]

The spiders seemed to have nothing to do with the egg plot other than an excuse for a bit of horror reminiscent of that really old movie whose name I can't recall. I think there was a throw away line from The Doctor about the spiders existing because of warming on the moon because of the egg, but, if so, killing the egg/baby/moon would have meant killing them--but I guess they were deemed not worthy of the status of "life" forms because they were just big ass bacteria.

The spiders reminded me of Cloverfield, especially the subway tunnel scene.  A monster as big as Godzilla might have dog sized parasites.

 

And upon further reflection, I definitely see the abortion parallel.  Abortion isn't nearly as big a deal in the UK as it is in the US. In fact, British soaps will have abortion storylines that, while played for drama, are never controversial enough that the network would refuse to air them.  But it's all the more frustrating because the take hom message is "even if it seems like the fetus will cause severe problems for people, you can't kill it.  Then once its born everything will magically be super."  Which is so horribly anti-choice it's not even funny.

[Kalliste]

And upon further reflection, I definitely see the abortion parallel.  Abortion isn't nearly as big a deal in the UK as it is in the US. In fact, British soaps will have abortion storylines that, while played for drama, are never controversial enough that the network would refuse to air them.  But it's all the more frustrating because the take hom message is "even if it seems like the fetus will cause severe problems for people, you can't kill it.  Then once its born everything will magically be super."  Which is so horribly anti-choice it's not even funny.

I felt that way about this episode. It was either be 'bad' and kill the fetus or be good and let it live regardless of the consequences because you never know, it might turn out ok. It seemed like they were saying "what if" is no reason to abort a fetus because look, it could be beautiful and lay it's own moon egg and majestic and blah blah.

 

In this case it was a pretty massive what if and seemed justified to have it as an option.

[Llywela]

I waited overnight to see if my feelings would change, but they haven't.

 

And to think I had such high hopes for this season.

 

Contrived conflict. Characters used as devices. Awful storytelling.

 

I don't even have the energy to pick it all apart any more. I really dislike this narrative style. I hate that the show and the Doctor are being thrown under a bus to serve Clara's story arc. It is possible to give a primary story arc to one character while also developing other characters and stories alongside them. Everything does not have to be subsumed by that single story to the exclusion of all other development. I can see what they are trying to do here, but the writing is so heavy-handed that it's crushing the life out of the show.

 

This new Doctor has not been allowed to have his personality developed beyond the abrasive detachment established in his first episode, because Clara's story for the season - which apparently revolves around disliking the Doctor and being miserable while with him - relies on him being unpleasant, and Moffat has decided that Clara is now the hero of the show, the only person who gets to have a storyline or a valid point of view.

 

In this episode, continuing the seasonal trend, the entire population of Earth got to be wrong so that perfect Clara could be right.

 

It all feels so contrived. Manipulative. Hollow.

 

Who am I supposed to be rooting for here? None of these characters are likeable. Well, I suppose Courtney might be fun if she existed as a person with a life and story of her own, rather than as a device to support Clara's story - from what we've seen of her, I'd far rather see Courtney develop a spiky, 'gruff mentor-rebellious pupil' relationship with the Doctor (something that would give both of them the opportunity to peel back layers) than watch Clara being always right and always miserable, feeling tied to the Doctor not because she likes him or enjoys travelling with him but because she feels responsible for keeping him on the straight and narrow. Their dynamic is horrible. The characters are not being given room to breathe and simply be.

 

I can see what Steven Moffat is aiming for. I can see what he is trying to do. The 6th Doctor was presented as unlikeable in the wake of his regeneration, with the intention of mellowing him as time went along. It didn't work, the writing was too weak and the audience was alienated and that incarnation didn't last long enough to become who he could have been. Tegan Jovanka was presented as very much the reluctant companion who frequently clashed with the Doctor and was horrified by the disasters she witnessed. I quite like her story, but many fans hate her for it. Both were controversial characters in the 1980s. Moffat seems to think he can repeat those experiments and do it better this time, but he's just making the same mistakes all over again - and adding many more of his own, while not even managing to replicate the things those earlier attempts got right (such as Tegan's close bond with Nyssa or the 6th Doctor's passion and heart).

 

Moffat loves his callbacks to the classic show - this episode was crammed with them. But cherry-picking a few moments from classic stories that appear 'cool' or 'significant' or 'popular', removing them from context and jamming them together hoping to make a similar impact...it doesn't work, it just feels flimsy and forced. This Doctor needs to be allowed to find himself, not just copy what other Doctors did in a different context.

 

One of my major criticisms of the Moffat era has been that it tells its stories in broad brushstrokes, using characters as devices to service the plots rather than using the plots to explore the characters. That's still true, and the flipside is that he also tends to have a very narrow focus on his primary plot, to the exclusion of all else. No matter what issues are thrown up along the way, they aren't explored and they aren't resolved, because the Plot is what matters. It makes for a disjointed viewing experience and is part of what has prevented me bonding with any of his characters.

 

I'd really hoped for better with a new Doctor and a new era, but no.

 

This season disappoints me enormously.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Llywela

[random chance]

Sometimes people have to make the tough choice, the lesser of two evils. RTD understands this, Moffat doesn't. Giving the characters a constant out in their decisions is cowardly writing.

Exactly. And it was an entire planet at stake, not the U.S.S. Enterprise where everyone knew what the deal was when they signed on (so too bad for them, there will be no killing the life form that's about to eat the ship). I'm a person who will carry a spider outside (screaming the whole time) and I would have chosen the planet. Any sane person would have chosen the planet.

[companionenvy]

This time, I come down on the side of still problematic, but the good far outweighed the bad. First of all, I saw the abortion metaphor, but I'm going to chalk that up at least in part to unfortunate implications, and another instance of the British/American cultural divide. Abortion is a particularly fraught issue in the US, so I'm not sure that the metaphor would loom as large for an English writer. Not that I think he didn't see it - the "abort" button was kind of obvious -- but that I'm not sure it was meant to be quite so politically loaded. At the very least, there is no issue of a woman's autonomy over her own body; being pro-choice doesn't mean you think you have the right to forcibly abort a fetus that doesn't happen to be living in your uterus. If anything, I thought this episode challenged some assumptions about women - the astronaut calls the Doctor out both for assuming the president is a man, and assuming she herself has children. 

 

To get the two problems I DO have out of the way: First, while (as I'll get to in a moment), I really like the episode, I would have liked it more if it didn't continue the pattern of emphasizing the dark and anti-heroic elements of the Doctor more than I like. With the possible exception of the first episode, which still dealt quite a bit with the Doctor as killer, we haven't had another episode that a) ended on an up-note b) had the Doctor taking charge and saving the day and c) not acting like an unfeeling and/or petty jerk. I did like that we had some moments of joy and wonder, but that gets undercut when the end result of the episode is "Doctor, you're a terrible person." So this is a great episode, but would play better to me if it came after some more uplifting outings in which the Doctor came off as an actual hero.

 

The second is that it continues the Moffet-era pattern of making harsh moral judgments based on the eventual appearance of magic solutions that don't exist in the real world. There is no way that Clara, Courtney and the astronaut could have known that letting the creature hatch wasn't going to mean the end of Earth; in fact, the more probable outcome seemed to be that it would, or at least would cause great disruption and loss of life. In addition, there was no evidence that the creature was going to have any complex intelligence. It was simply unusual. Unless the Doctor, Clara and Courtney are all vegans that don't kill insects, there's really no grounds for treating this as a uniquely awful thing to do, especially given the possible risks. So based on the information she had, I'd say that Clara did make the wrong choice, but of course the show validates it. At least they acknowledged that it was a hard choice and didn't demonize the astronaut the way they did the mother in the Silurian two-parter a couple seasons back, but I would have been happier if Clara had chosen to destroy the creature, and it had been Courtney, the naive teen, who had stopped both older women.

 

Now for the good. First of all, absurd as it was, I actually liked the twist about the moon being an egg. It wasn't immediately predictable, and changed the direction of the episode in a productive way. It also gave us that nice moment at the end with all of them watching the creature hatch, and the Doctor explaining how Earth would be inspired by it. 

 

Then, we had the Doctor leaving. We knew from the first scene that the Doctor wouldn't be around, but I assumed that Clara thought he was dead for some reason. Him leaving in those circumstances was a choice I really couldn't have seen previous incarnations making, but wasn't - despite Clara's valid objections to the action later -- a difference that I thought undermined his essential character as established over 50 years, so it worked for me. Mind you, I don't think it was a good thing to do, but it was an interesting one that, again, launched the episode to different places.

 

And then, of course, there's Clara's rejection of the Doctor, which I thought elevated the episode to an entirely new level. It isn't just that she challenged him so vociferously - it is that she objected in a way that seemed to me both totally legitimate and totally unexpected and non-inevitable. Something like Donna challenging the Doctor in The Runaway Bride is important, but it is also pretty clear in that scene that the Doctor is behaving badly, or is at least going too far. Here, though, I really thought the show was taking the attitude that the Doctor had done a good thing in leaving it to the humans, and on its face, his action does seem to be potentially positive and respectful. But then Clara punctures his reasoning in a way that was totally convincing to me. I know some people have said they didn't see why she was mad, but I think she's right: Basically, well-intentioned or not, the Doctor is playing games with people's lives. This isn't a learning experience in which Clara needs to be taught a Very Important Lesson about personal responsibility, this is a potentially catastrophic situation in which everyone deserves to, at the very least, make the choice with access to the best information possible. And as that last conversation proves, the Doctor did know more than he was saying - he had some reason to believe that the Earth would be safe that he declined to share with the class.

 

It is also disrespectful for the Doctor to act as if, in a deadly serious situation, Clara needs a lesson at all. I guess the best analogy I have is this: both my father and I have jobs that involve writing. When I was a kid, I wouldn't ask for his help on writing assignments because I understood - and he backed me up in this -- that I had to learn for myself. Now that I'm an adult, and at least as good a writer as he is, I will sometimes ask for his input, but not as a mentor, as a peer. I would be grossly offended if I asked him to read something over, and his response was the same as it had been when I was nine. If you see someone as worthy of respect, you don't need to engineer learning experiences or object lessons for them. That's what you do for an obvious inferior.That's also why it was so important to have Courtney in the episode. She's Clara's student, but while Clara tries to keep her safe and guide her, she also treats her with respect when the chips are down - the moment where she tells her she can call her Clara is key. 

 

And, you know, Courtney gets to be the first woman on the moon. And President of the US - which adds lovely irony to the Doctor's comment that the President can't decide because "she hasn't been in space." We can fanwank the constitutional issue - people did talk a bit about the law being changed to let Arnold Schwartznegger run before the love-child scandal came out. 

[MadMouse]

 

Yes. I was thinking of Day of the Doctor too (with all those Gallifreyan children changing the Doctor's mind). Here Courtney and particularly Clara are actually cool with millions of people (including children) dying (and if the moon really disappeared thats what would happen) and there are zero consequences to such their actions. Because it was OBVIOUS the moon-egg would instantly be replaced by another moon-egg! What the....

 

Though I didn't mind the Doctor not deciding. That is actually in character going back to his face-offs with the Meddling Monk who did just that.

 

 

Yep and that's where I got the Day of the Doctor vibe. Both episodes presented huge moral dilemmas and then ignored consequences for a happy ending.

 

I think a bigger problem is that when a character is put in of these horrible positions that their choice is somehow painted as being wrong or short sighted. The blonde astronaut was literally the devil on Clara's shoulder. The retcon doctor as so horrible he must never be spoken of.  I get that DW isn't a serious drama but you do need these types of no win situations sometimes. It makes the episodes when "everyone lives Rose" have more meaning. The irony of quoting a Moffat written episode hasn't escaped me.

[Mr. Simpatico]

I can see what Steven Moffat is aiming for. I can see what he is trying to do. The 6th Doctor was presented as unlikeable in the wake of his regeneration, with the intention of mellowing him as time went along. It didn't work, the writing was too weak and the audience was alienated and that incarnation didn't last long enough to become who he could have been. Tegan Jovanka was presented as very much the reluctant companion who frequently clashed with the Doctor and was horrified by the disasters she witnessed. I quite like her story, but many fans hate her for it. Both were controversial characters in the 1980s. Moffat seems to think he can repeat those experiments and do it better this time, but he's just making the same mistakes all over again - and adding many more of his own, while not even managing to replicate the things those earlier attempts got right (such as Tegan's close bond with Nyssa or the 6th Doctor's passion and heart).

 

I agree. Moffat is trying to do the Sixth Doctor right (except Moffat has the support of the BBC, while JNT and Colin Baker had Michael Grade) but he's not doing it right. The Sixth Doctor suffered from extremely lousy writing but the show itself made it clear there was something clearly wrong his regeneration, that he wasn't behaving normally and after a few series he and Peri actually had good camaraderie. Here we have absolutely no clear why the Doctor is such a jackass, he and Clara (who fancied 11, c'mon even the show has admitted as such) clearly do not get along. We have no sign the Doctor is changing (unlike Six) because ALL of the character development and focus is on Clara, who Moffat has said is the star of the show. 

 

Tegan is a pretty good example. She clearly was written not very well (something Janet Fielding has complained for years about) and her exit was less about her and more about JNT making room for Peri to come aboard in the next serial. But she clearly LOVED travelling in the Tardis (for all her complaints) and she was heartbroken to leave Five when she made the decision that she had had enough and left of her own volition without anything bad happening to her afterwards (something that could never happen to her in Moffat's NuWho).  I actually got excited when I saw the picture Janet F. posted on Twitter with Capaldi because I think it would a marvelous thing for Tegan (who actually I think has the record with Jamie for longest consecutive companion in years) to meet Twelve who is so very unlike HER Doctor but...very much in personality like Tegan used to be. Then I remembered there seems to be a blackout on classic companions (Sarah Jane under Davies excepted) in NuWho, even on the fiftieth it was Billie Piper who was brought back not William Russell or Carole Ann Ford.

I believe Moffat, who was a huge fan of the Fifth Doctor and think the Sixth Doctor was where it went off the rails does think he can do what JNT couldn't - a convincing "Dark Doctor" with a character arc. Except he's not giving the Doctor an arc - he's giving it to Clara. It would have made much more sense for Clara to die with her Doctor at Trenzalore and for his new set of regenerations to begin with a Doctor played by Jenna Coleman. At least then the focus on her would have made sense.

[patchwork]

Day of the Doctor retconned so much of NuWho that I'm never going to be okay with it but for this episode I don't mind the lack of consequences, the problem imo is Moffat always goes for the consequence free solution. I also liked that the Doctor stepped back and let humanity choose, that humanity got it so wrong they started to think about their own hubris and once again became explorers. 

 

The Doctor is looking at the big picture i.e. humanity's path while Clara is focused on her own pov; she couldn't live with killing the moon baby, she felt betrayed by the Doctor leaving, and neither is wrong. 

 

I wouldn't mind if this is the last we see of Clara for a while, Twelve could have episodic companions until the finale where he's reunited with Clara and they part ways on good terms. I'm ready for the next full time companion but story-wise things need to cool off then be worked out between the two of them before we can move on.  

[Writing Wrongs]

I gave up for a couple of episodes, but came back for this one because I like Hermione Norris. I also watched The Caretaker beforehand. My opinion hasn't changed. This show is awful now.

 

I don't like Clara and now they've added Danny and Courtney to the mix. Ugh. I want to like Capaldi, but his Doctor just seems off to me. I'm kind of interested in next week's show, so I guess I'll hang on for that one.

[cambridgeguy]

Humanity did not get this decision wrong unless it's wrong to shoot an animal that has wandered into your backyard and is about to kill you (or your family).  They had no way of knowing a replacement moon was ready to go the instant the old one hatched. 

 

I do understand why Clara was pissed.  Companions sometimes have to make tough decisions when the Doctor vanishes but it's usually because he's incapacitated or busy with something else.  This time he voluntarily chose to leave and, in Clara's mind, left her to decide between executing an innocent animal or condemn millions of innocent people to death. 

 

That being said, it was right of the Doctor to step back and let humanity choose.  Of course, he's usually the guy who ignores what other people want and does his own thing so he and Clara have that in common.

Edited October 5, 2014 by cambridgeguy