S04.E01: A Tale Of Two Sisters

[verdana]

Robert Carlyle continues to out act the lot (of course, he can out act most folks) I actually loved the first dance.

RC can do no wrong for me, he's a quality actor and that shows through every time. The dance was great I loved it. The Frozen characters are all new to me never having watched the movie so I enjoyed their introduction.

Edited September 29, 2014 by verdana

[patchwork]

I don't have high CGI standards but I thought the troll-in-law was pretty good. 

 

The Frozen flashbacks were the best parts, I've listened to 'Let It Go' way more than I could ever watched the movie but from what I remember the characters seem spot on. RE Anna leaving the day before her wedding? I think there's a reason beyond birth order that Elsa's the ruler of their country. The show did touch on Anna's impulsive, no forward thinking personality when she was encouraging Elsa to go, find out about their parents and Elsa brought up Hans still being a threat. 

 

Emma started off well in refusing to apologise for saving Marian I wonder how long that's going to last. What I wouldn't give for the other characters to treat Regina the same way they do Rumple. 

 

I don't remember the plot of Fantasia well, does the hat belong to Merlin?

Is Rumple thinking of swapping the Dark One's power for something else?   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One moment that cracked me up was when Regina was sitting on the floor in her office while Emma was talking to her through the door. What kind of woman sits in the floor with only the heels of her stilettos touching the ground and her toes pointed up? Only tv women. A normal person would just take her shoes off.

 

I also found it hilarious that everyone was running toward the forest looking for the evil snow monster but Regina just strolled into the forest (in high heels, no less).

 

But I have had it up to here with Regina. She is so busy whining about HER happiness and HER love and HER life that she never stops to consider what it's like for Robin's kid to have his mother back or for Marian to have her freedom and her family back. No one should be allowed happiness if it interferes with Regina's!

 

I wasn't sure how I would feel about the Frozen characters, but I think they did a good job casting for Elsa, Anna, and Kristoff so that they are similar to the movie versions but not carbon copies. They are believable live action versions.

 

Normally I dislike the cliche of one person in the relationship pestering the other one about said relationship, but I like that Hook's persistence is about communication and being honest. He just wants her to acknowledge her actions and her feelings and what is going on. If she is avoiding him, he wants her to be upfront about it. And he is right - there is always a crisis whether they are in Storybrooke or the Enchanted Forest, so it's silly to put every other aspect of their lives on hold. Peace and quiet may never come, so they may as well live their lives and try to be happy. I noticed that after the first Evil Snowman (tm Grumpy) attack, we had to get a shot of Emma lying on top of Hook before we could cut to them running away.

 

I really hope that Elsa gets to change out of that awful blue costume soon. I don't care what excuse they use either. Hopefully it will just be something simple like "gotta blend in with the rest of the townspeople." I get why they had her in that costume for this episode, but we get it. We know it's Elsa. Let her wear something else now. And please let her and Anna both lose their Frozen hairstyles.

 

I thought the green screen stuff in Arendelle was worse than the CGI snow monster.

 

I am not a fan of Rumple/Belle and sometimes I get annoyed with the overt references to Disney specific stuff on this show, but if they were going to do a first dance then I am glad they used the Beauty and the Beast music. I thought the yellow dress and Rumple's blue coat was a little too try hard for my taste, but for some reason I found the music sweet. I blame my childhood nostalgia, which means I just played right into Disney's hands.

 

Did they have to replicate the '80s cartoon outfits exactly?

FYI - Beauty and the Beast was released in November 1991. I know there is a tendency to lump a lot of stuff into the 80s but this movie was definitely from the 90s! The Little Mermaid was the last Disney movie of the 80s (and by the skin of its teeth - it was released in November 1989).

 

I loved that Henry knew to try calling Regina himself because she might not pick up when Emma called. He definitely knows his mom. I hope he doesn't feel like crap knowing that his love isn't enough for his mom anymore. For the record, I am not saying that a child love's has to be enough for an adult. There is nothing wrong with wanting adult companionship and love too. But I hate that Regina has been crowing about how Henry's love is all she needs and after a few days of making out with Robin, she's ready to go evil again.

 

It's ridiculous how everyone knows that this is a very distinct possibility but their attitudes are all along the lines of "ehhhhh, let's wait and see if she kills anyone or curses an entire kingdom before we overreact." I hate disliking Regina because Lana Parilla has been so awesome, but I just can't with Regina anymore. She reminds me of Klaus on the Originals. Everything is someone else's fault and they always paint themselves as the victims.

 

I just watched on the DVR, and I think there were more commercials than usual. I wouldn't know until I see the minute count on my Amazon tomorrow, but, as I was fast-forwarding, it seemed like the ratio of show to ads was closer than normal. My guess is ABC is using the "Frozen" story to push for more ad revenue.

The episode was 43 minutes long, which is pretty normal for an hourlong show on network tv. For reference, the S3 premiere was also 43 minutes long, as was episode S3E20. Amazon rounds up so most of the episodes are listed on their website as 44 minutes but they are actually just a little over 43 minutes.

[myril]

I'm beginning to think Emma is a prick tease.

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

-When did Rumple's hair get silver?

 

Noticed that too, he looked a lot more silver over night, so to speak.

 

I HATED that Marian begged Regina to save her life from the Snow Monster, and Regina did. Not a good sign for the writing of Marian.

 

There was something off with that. Maybe if Marian would have said, "please help us" (instead of "help me", although that might be a great detail to feed more speculation about Marian being fake), or just something like, "please, do something!" with a lot less weepy voice, and it could have worked better. It didn't fit to the character, it was (once again) all about making Regina look good. Marian's pleading for help and see, Regina changed, she does help, though might have a bit different thoughts and not just to do what's right because it is right to do. Just a little moment but generic for the writing on the show - making people see a Mary Sue (or Jerk Sue) in Regina. Marian is written only to serve Regina's whatever story, there is not a millisecond of thought of how Marian would be as character on her own in this moment. Marian is just a supporting character, so I don't expect them to have a fully fleshed out character chart of her, but still making it work so that a scene fits not just the main characters but although is in character for such minor roles is a piece of the difference between okay writing and great writing.

 

The season opener didn't wow me, but it was entertaining and even occasionally enjoyable. Sven was great, although a few of his moments had the flair of a mechanical puppet. Anna was overly perky, but that was pretty much how she was in the animated movie, just that in animated version, as being more comical anyway (at least Disney is) it doesn't stand out as much as it did now in live action. Add what a different impression Elizabeth Lail gives in interviews, and I join the choir saying some good acting by her. Not to mention the voice, really close. And Elsa was to the point, glad to see that Georgina Haig nailed it - but her costume is another matter (doubt that running around in it all day in hot summer was that much fun)

 

The CGI was okay, although some scenes with the snow monster reminded me in  a way of good old stop motion monsters ala 50s Sinbad movies, just with CGI.

 

They used the word MONSTER 14 times (about as often as Regina, 14x, and Marian,13x, were called by name, Elsa was mentioned 12 times; monster was used 6x in connection with Regina, 4x snow monster, 2x Elsa, 1x called Rumple himself a monster, 1x used it Emma in general sense - not kidding, the magic of computer linguistics one can do with subtitles). Just for statistics, if anyone like me had the feeling at the end, that they used that word a lot in this episode.

 

The regular characters. Think most has been already said.  Don't care about Regina anymore. Robin has some dark past, what a surprise, but won't change that he is not likeable as Regina's uber cheerleader. Just past week read a great article musing that we're sacrificing happiness on the altar of the religion of true love romance, soul mates and happy endings  (it's in German, but let me know if you want a link to it). While reading it of course thought of this show, and this episode underlined it again. So, progress, Regina doesn't want to kill anyone on second or third thought, only force the writer of the storybook of storybooks to change whatever rules she thinks are there preventing her to get her happy ending. Oh well, fantasy. Neverending Story, Inkheart come to my mind at once. 

 

Can take that Rumple glorifies his dead son as hero, and makes promises to him, which he likely will break, but I can't stand Rumple and Belle. Watching the ball scene and the set up to it made me feel sick. This is just creepy and not the least bit good true love material IMO.

 

 I care about Emma's story but not much about her pirate boyfriend. Aside of the Frozen cast, which I think I will simply enjoy watching act not minding much what story they are going to tell, it's Emma's story that still keeps me watching the show as interesting for the sake of the character and her development, and not just for the show being a pop cultural phenomenon.

 

And did anyone else get a bad vibe from Sidney? Think he had enough, being put back into the mirror might have been the last straw. Or maybe it's wishful thinking. But he was not so eager to do her majesty's biding anymore in the mirror, and there was a sense of possible betrayal on his side. Think Regina better should watch her back.

[Hook75]

Way, way too much Frozen. It felt like a set up for a spin off than a regular episode. 

 

Poor Hook!

 

I'm sick of Regina and her "boo hoo me".

[AudienceofOne]

This show is mostly guilty of what it's always been and that is not giving room for the characters to breathe. I can't complain too much because it's a consequence of a trend in a lot of modern shows that the writers feel that things have to be happening on screen all the time for people to keep watching. They're completely wrong but they're not alone. I wanted to see Captain Swan. I wanted take a moment before rushing headlong into the crazy. I'm with Emma - who has time to do this relationship stuff when one moment you're trying to stop yourself from being wiped from existence and the next a random giant snowman is clomping through town. And because of that, the whole last season about finding out that "there's no place like home" gets wiped away completely because we're back to "it's crazy here".

 

I mostly enjoyed it except the Belle/Gold stuff continues to be both creepy and boring and I actually fast forwarded it.

 

Incidentally, the term "prick tease" or "cock tease" is a monumentally chauvinistic term implying a woman is supposed to be sexually available on demand. It's also used to justify sexual assault and rape because, hey, how much is "Nice Guy" supposed to take?

Edited September 29, 2014 by AudienceofOne

[Mari]

You know, I realized this morning that they actually came out and presented it to us this way: 

 

Feel bad for Regina because she didn't get to kill her boyfriend's wife like she wanted to do.

 

I knew that the story would probably be framed that way, but I didn't expect it to be that blatant.  I feel a little gross now.

[ShadowFacts]

Did I get something mixed up or is there a continuity problem with the outside the diner scene being in daylight, whereas the end of last season, it was nighttime? 

 

What the hell are Belle and Gold doing squatting in someone's mansion on their honeymoon?  She found it on her morning hike and it must have come over in the last curse?  By the way, to echo what was said above, Gold has zero respect for Belle, freezing her that way.  He could have done the dagger switch some other way when she was not around. What was all the business of the dagger and Gold waving it around to animate the hat--thought it held power over the Dark One.  Implication that the sorceror's hat belonged to Zoso or the original Dark One?  And is there a tie-in with the author of the book, inasmuch as the scene immediately before that had Regina talking about finding the author?

 

As aliasscape and others have said so well, the enslavement of Sidney is a very good indication that Regina's not only backsliding on redemption, she never really changed. Only temporary, that's what she told Sidney. Years in solitary confinement was awful enough, even if he isn't a sympathetic character.  As for saving Marian, it wasn't just Marian, the rest of them were laying immobile and would have died too, correct?  Including Robin?  So it was a little different than an act of charity towards Marian.

 

[YaddaYadda]

Is it sad that I hoped the snow monster would just do away with Marian so that I can be put out of my misery?  Because after just one show, I already feel miserable with that storyline. 

 

I noticed the troll statue outside wherever Hook and Emma were standing. 

 

Also, why must Emma martyr herself for effin' Regina?  What about her own happy ending?  Someone should tell her that Regina is the reason her life was so fucked up.  Side of the road, failed adoptions, foster system...whoever mentioned Graham dying (though sadly he's a moot point since no one knows or refuses to acknowledge what happened to him).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

What the hell are Belle and Gold doing squatting in someone's mansion on their honeymoon?

I found that weird and slightly creepy too. She saw a house while she was hiking and decided to just bust in and sleep there? I mean, what if the owner was just out for a jog or grocery shopping? That doesn't mean there's an open invitation for people to just barge in and start waltzing. I hope the three bears come home and kick their asses out.

Edited September 29, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Dani-Ellie]

So putting in my two cents of the episode for what it's worth.  I'm sure it is the minority since many here hate Regina.

 

 

 

 

It's not so much that I hate Regina. I'm just tired of her. I'm tired of her never learning her lesson. I'm tired of her thinking everyone else is responsible for her happiness or unhappiness. It's a pattern going back to Snow/Cora/Daniel. Snow told Cora about Daniel, which means Snow is responsible for Daniel's death. Her vengeance left her empty, but a baby will fill it. Her baby won't stop crying, so something's got to be wrong with the baby. Robin's wife couldn't just stay dead like she was supposed to. And now some book is handing out happy endings and damn it, she's going to make the book give her hers? I would be a hell of a lot more patient with Regina if she would start to take control of her own life and recognize that the only one who's responsible for Regina's happiness is Regina.

 

 

Also, why must Emma martyr herself for effin' Regina?  What about her own happy ending?  Someone should tell her that Regina is the reason her life was so fucked up.  Side of the road, failed adoptions, foster system...whoever mentioned Graham dying (though sadly he's a moot point since no one knows or refuses to acknowledge what happened to him).

 

 

I fully agree that Emma staving off her own happiness because of Regina is ludicrous. That's why I liked Hook pulling it out of her that it wasn't just Regina that's holding her back. Regina is a convenient excuse right now, and if it wasn't Regina, it would be something or someone else. I think she's just not ready yet, for reasons only she knows.

[kili]

Frozen crew: Absolutely loved Elsa. The actress was believable and made us care about her in a few short scenes. They clearly showed us that fear caused her to do the things she did and there was no nonsense implying she was evil. Anna was okay, but I think they could have had her run off the day after her wedding because running out on her wedding was a little rude to her husband and all her guests. The mystery had sat dormant for 5 years, so it wasn't an emergency. Troll was pretty good. Sven was brilliant (I want him back). Kristoff seemed a little unreal with him not being the slightest bit bothered by his wedding getting canned or concerned about the possibly dangerous voyage his fiance was taking.

 

Rumbelle - Ugh! First off, I should not watch this show after visiting a Halloween store. I kept expecting a hand to emerge from the grave...which probably would have been better than Rumple playing the exposition fairy for the new viewers. I love that his promise to his son to be a better man lasted all of five seconds before he was scheming in his head to take the dagger back from Belle. At least he waited for her to be asleep to take it back and use it. I was totally shocked that he froze her to pull the first switcheroo. The last time we saw Belle frozen, it was compliments of Zeelena.  Kind of ruined the romantic nature of the gesture and the dance.

 

Marian - I loved her when she was calling Regina and the townspeople on their nonsense, when she fiercely stood up to the woman gleefully threatening to put her head on a pike and when she did not hesitate to grab a bow to defend against the snow monster (even if that was the wrong move).  Please don't go soft on us. She alone calls Regina on her crap. Somebody has to. Oh, and dump feckless Robin and take sweet Roland somewhere else before his logic sensors are fried too.

 

Emma and Hook - Hook's right. One has to find time in Storybrooke and she was avoiding him. She doesn't have to date him, but she should be honest with him. It's only fair. Good thing she picked a guy who has the patience to wait 300 years because he might have to do that again.

 

Emma and Regina - Oh My God! Emma, you are not responsible for everybody's happy endings. You are not everybody's personal savior. Life is messy and happy endings will always be threatened. People have to make their own happy endings. You will drive yourself crazy and are doomed to failure if it is your job to ensure others are happy. You can't even make everybody happy. Making one person happy may be at the expense of another.

 

Regina - Regina says she's not the person she once was, but even her closest relatives fear that she can turn on a dime and become evil again (even her son). And they aren't wrong. The only thing keeping Marian's head from being on the end of a pike is that Regina thinks that people might blame her...and they wouldn't be wrong. How is she not the person she once was? She's plotting to murder Marian and enslaving Sydney (against his wishes) in the mirror? She wants to time travel (which we spent the last half season labeling as evil and we know takes some seriously evil shopping to get the ingredients) or force the writer of the book to give her a happy ending.  I guess she's not the person she once was because she has learned to be more subtle? She's still evil. And she still doesn't realize that she needs to stop blaming the world.  I don't feel sorry for her one bit.

 

Grumpy and Sleepy were fantastic. I love Grumpy in town crier mode.

[Curio]

I watched the 2-hour Season 3 finale right before I watched this episode, and I'm a little upset I did... By comparison, this episode was a real snooze fest. Adam & Eddy sure know how to take a really exciting finale episode and follow it up with an underwhelming premiere (Season 1 finale to Season 2 opener, Season 3A finale to Season 3B opener, and now this). It also made me realize I'm not really a fan of Storybrooke anymore. I know this is the town everyone calls "home" now, but there are just so many more interesting adventures that could be had in the Enchanted Forest! (I'm sorry, Mysthaven, apparently.)

 

I am completely baffled by this whole Regina changing the story in the book nonsense. How can you change a future that hasn't been written yet? It would be one thing if the story book could tell the future and she didn't like the ending she read, so she wants to force the writer to give her a better story. But Regina's plan is to, what, force the writer to change her past to make her not a villain? Did she not learn anything from Hook and Emma's adventure in the finale? She should know that changing things in the past can makes things way worse. Did Regina also completely forget about her conversation with Hook on his ship to Neverland where she asked if villains can get happy endings? And now it appears Hook is actually getting a happy ending, even though he's a "villain." Hmm, I don't know Regina, maybe you should copy what Hook did and suck it up, accept what happened in the past, and become a better person today.

 

Also, it's nice to know that someone can use white magic even though they're holding people hostage at the same time and can immediately plan on murdering someone a day or two later.

 

I really loved the Frozen stuff, though - so I guess there's that. But overall, needs more of the Charming clan (minus Henry) and Hook.

[MelsW]

I see OUAT blew their entire CGI budget for this season on the stone troll. He was great; the rest of the CGI was awful as usual. The snowman was laugh out loud horrible.

 

I have never seen Frozen and don’t plan on it so I came into this unbiased and not giving a hoot about any of them. I thought the Frozen stuff was well done though I don’t really understand Elsa’s powers, so I feel like I am missing some backstory by having not seen the movie.

 

I didn’t know Regina still had people locked up. So Sidney was stuck in the hospital dungeon wing…is anyone else there?

 

I don’t mind that Regina and Rumple walk the line of good and evil, teetering in either direction at times. If everyone was on Team Good I would have stopped watching long ago.

 

Shallow end of the pool:

• I hate Elsa’s dress, it looks like an elongated version of a figure skating costume.
• I still think Hook is hot, even if he hasn’t embraced modern fashion (including losing the guyliner).

[StaceyNotStacie]

I noticed that Michael Socha's (Knave from the Wonderland spinoff) name was in the opening credits with the rest of the regular cast.  Did I blink and completely miss him in this episode?

[Mari]

So putting in my two cents of the episode for what it's worth.  I'm sure it is the minority since many here hate Regina.

...

-I seriously am annoyed that Regina's family/friends just basically shrugged and let her walk home alone.  And then left her alone for hours.  I think from the missing  year it was obvious Snow was in Regina's face a lot to check on her after losing Henry so why wouldn't they do the same?  

-I don't mind Regina being tempted to go back to the dark side.  Old habits are hard to break.  But I don't want this to continue for too long.  Even if they are apparently starting down a new (possibly interesting) story arc on who wrote the book.  And while I am a Regina fan, I think it's more important she stop trying to rewrite her own story and live from this point on as a hero.

Oh, heavens, for what it's worth (as a pretty vocal anti-Regina) : Please two cents away. ; )   The conversation's more interesting when we don't all just nod away in agreement.  Personally, I enjoy the engagement as long as both sides make sense and are respectful.

 

And I do have to agree with you about quite a bit--Regina's Storybrooke wardrobe is usually great.  She may not be my favorite character, but she's usually got my favorite Storybrooke outfit.   You're also completely right about Regina needing to stop rewriting her story, and try living in the present.

 

As for her friends and family just leaving her to walk home along to suffer?  Um, well, they didn't want to.  Despite the fact that Regina's spent years tormenting them and treating them like Dung Beetles even after she was a "hero", they were very concerned.  They tried to talk to her, they tried to phone her--she refused to see or talk to them, and told them to go away.  At some point, Regina's got to suck it up and be a grown up.

 

You shouldn't have to be coddled because you didn't manage to kill the wife of the boyfriend you didn't want and thought was repellant and beneath you until four days ago.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Mari

[Serena]

I noticed that Michael Socha's (Knave from the Wonderland spinoff) name was in the opening credits with the rest of the regular cast.  Did I blink and completely miss him in this episode?

Socha is a regular, and every regular gets their name in the opening credits, even when they don't show up in the specific episode. I believe Michael Raymon James was listed in the credits for every episode of season 3, even after Neal died. 

[Amerilla]

She saw a house while she was hiking and decided to just bust in and sleep there? I mean, what if the owner was just out for a jog or grocery shopping? That doesn't mean there's an open invitation for people to just barge in and start waltzing.

 

I just don't understand how A&E & Company can still be so clunky with this type of stuff.

 

OK, they wanted/needed Rumple to find the mystery object in a place he wouldn't normally be, and they wanted to imply that it came from elsewhere, they wanted a special place for the dance scene - I get it. But could they at least work a little harder to make that feel like a natural progression? Dialog can be your friend...if you aren't busy stomping it to mush as you barrel towards the next plot point.

 

For example:

 

"I've been coming out here on morning walks for months, and this house wasn't here before the second curse. I don't think anyone lives there, though. I couldn't help but go inside - come on, you have to see it, it's so beautiful."  

 

Is that a killer line re-write? No. It's early and I'm hopped up on cold medication. But imply Belle has a life that still involves going out and exploring, even on a small scale, imply more strongly that there's an element of fate to her finding the place and bringing Rumpel there to find the object that's likely

going to end up being a challenge to their young marriage and

a big plot-driver for the arc. Then let them do a little dance and make a little love and so forth.

 

I didn’t know Regina still had people locked up. So Sidney was stuck in the hospital dungeon wing…is anyone else there?

 

Probably. There was never any mention that she emptied the dungeon - even Belle wasn't released, just set free by Jefferson in one of those plot moments that made no sense and had no context.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Amerilla

[Rumsy4]

"She doesn't have to date him, but she should be honest with him."

But she wants to date him, and yet, apparently changed her mind from last night from being all in, for reasons other than Regina/Marian. So overnight, something occursd to her that makes her want to avoid Hook rather than simply enjoy the starting stages of a new relationship. If she did not want to date him at all, she would not have kissed him again, and asked him to be patient. I do think she is not being completely fair to Hook by doing this. I hope they move forward from this unequal dynamic soon, one way or the other.

[Advance35]

So putting in my two cents of the episode for what it's worth.  I'm sure it is the minority since many here hate Regina.

 

For my money, she's the only interesting character on the show.  I don't know if it's Lana, Regina's one-liners, or the fabulous wardrobe both in Fairytale Land and Out, but she's the only character I TRULY pay attention to and enjoy.

 

I love that she's not a good person.   She is selfish, self-obsessed, self-deluded, childish, spoiled, crazy and wounded.   She doesn't value anyone as highly as she does herself.   Her narcissistic view of the world allows her to make HERSELF the center of the universe no matter what else is happening and I think that's hysterical.   I don't think Emma feels guilty about anything.   She didn't set out to hurt Regina and she's sorry her doing the right thing had that effect but that's about it.   Her excuse to Hook was just that, an excuse.

 

Regina's got a LARGE number of fans who will always see her side of things, that won't change.   And neither will the fans that hate her.   Her first reaction was to contemplate homicide and her subsequent discussions with Sydney, show the writers  are not white-washing Regina in my view.   When Hook said they should give Regina space, Charming's concern was, what she's going to do with that space.   The only one's that were interested in how Regina was genuinely feeling were, Robin, Snow and at the end, to an extent Emma.

 

And I thought Marian was handled as well as can be expected.   I get why she asked Regina for help, she probably heard from Charming, Snow and Robin that she's "changed".   Her first instinct was to take the fight into her own hands, hence why she grabbed the bow and arrow.

 

All and all, Regina was my favorite character as usual.

[Dirtybubble]

Well if we are going to have Sven the reindeer then I wanna see Olaf the talking snowman!

 

I'm still on the fence about this Frozen storyline.  It still seems like a cash in from the movie.  Honestly I'm kinda glad we'll be getting 2 other story lines from Regina (YAY her!) and Rumple.  This whole "I need to find my sister" business can get old quick.  I'm not sure I can take that all flippin' season long.

[candall]

Don't know zip about Frozen.

 

When Elsa walked into the barn talking and the reindeer was snort-talking back at her, I thought the sister's fiance' was the reindeer.  ("He even trimmed his beard for the wedding!")

 

Now that would have been fun.

[Curio]

I love that [Regina]'s not a good person. She is selfish, self-obsessed, self-deluded, childish, spoiled, crazy and wounded. She doesn't value anyone as highly as she does herself. Her narcissistic view of the world allows her to make HERSELF the center of the universe no matter what else is happening and I think that's hysterical.

 

Responding in the Regina thread.

[shipperx]

I liked the relationship between Elsa and Anna.  Nice to see the girls supporting each other.        
 
There was definitely a theme going on with Elsa calling herself a monster and fearing that her parents thought she was a monster (when clearly her parents did not) and the fact that 'monster' is being said to/about Regina so many times in the episode.  Not that Regina and Elsa are the same.  Elsa's fear turns inward and that's then passively and unintentionally reflected outward in the freezing.  Regina is rather more extraverted and actualized.  She immediately turns her fear into anger/rage and knowingly directs it outward. That's one differences, and why Elsa needs no redemption.  But it is still rather a bit of Yoda wisdom about fear leading to anger leading to trouble. 
 
However, I think that Regina's quest is going to turn out with her being wrong.  Regina did a couple of quasi-good-guy things in the last season (and feels entitled because of it...which is not the reason to do good things so she's missing the point), but she still does. not. get. it.  There is no one determining the happy endings.  Nothing is preventing the villains from 'getting happy endings'... except the villains themselves. They create the unhappy situations rather than seek constructive solutions.  
 
I think that'll be a discovery that's made down the road (and loosely connects to Hook's comments to Emma about how there's always a crisis and that if you don't have a life in the midst of it all, you won't have a life.  Your 'happy ending' is what you make of it.  It's not some predetermined end destination.   And I do think that's going to be the ultimate point.  I think the quest for the writer of 'the book' is a McGuffin.   It's a fools quest.  Something for a character to chase as a plot but it is essentially meaningless  (someone may have written it down and illustrated it, but they didn't do so in a manner that determined the characters lives).  This will NOT solve Regina's problem.  The only thing that can do that... is Regina. Regina has a lot of evolving left to do.
 
Anyway, I liked that the Frozen stuff depends on the sisters being there for each other.  And I liked Kristoff's faith in Anna, that she is strong enough to go off on her quest on her own and he'd be there to prevent Elsa from being alone.  Nice relationship dynamics (and Sven was cute).
 

On the positive side of things, Anna is freakin' adorable. (I've not seen Frozen, so I have zero idea if Show!Anna is matching up at all with Movie!Anna, but here, she's adorable.)

Movie!Anna is pretty adorable too ("Do You Want to Build a Snowman" youtube clip)
 

At least Rumple's redemption is sticking more than Regina's though.

Really? I don't tend to think so. Everyone knows Regina is acting out. Rumple is more successful in doing it stealth-style. As far as I can tell, giving Belle the dagger means squat. He steals it back whenever he wants to do something. First he lied to her and used her having the dagger as an alibi so as to murder Zelena in her jail cell (Regina actually did forego vengeance. Rumple killed her... albeit Rumple had more reason to do so than just about anyone else. But for sake of argument, Rumple's forego of vengeance was 100% fake while Regina's was actually -- dare I say it -- *gulp* genuine). Then rather than fess up, he froze Belle with magic to put the dagger into her bag. Then the first time he wanted to do something that required the dagger, he waited until she was asleep, took the dagger AGAIN, and used it to find the Disney Mickey hat (what do you want to bet the 'writer's name will be Walt or Micheal?). Whoever described Rumple as an addict was dead on. I don't think that Rumple is any more redeemed than Regina... he's just better at hiding it (which if anything, makes him a tad more dangerous).

Edited September 29, 2014 by shipperx

[Insomnia]

I'm okay with Regina being evil again. It's fairy tales - some one needs to be the bad guy, and while Elsa thinks she is the bad guy, she clearly isn't. Rumple is taking a shot at being a good guy by actually replacing the dagger. Of course he looses points for then going and using the dagger, but I much prefer baby steps to unevilness. Because clearly if you go full on goodguy, it's easy to fall off the wagon. Fairy tales without a badguy are just... I dunno Aesop's Fables.

 

I'm okay with her being the badguy too because, as I said in the Sons of Anarchy thread

Arlington Road

is still one of my favourite movies, because the badguys win. Sometimes they do! (Yeah it's a 15 year old movie, but some people haven't seen it and it shouldn't be spoiled if they ever do stumble across it. I like my bad guys to win, but the fact that they do is on of the best parts, to me. It's how they win.)

 

But I digress. Badguy, good! And I always found Regina more believable as evil, rather than good. And I can see why Regina would go the time route, it  nearly worked for her sister, she she knows it actually could work.

 

Emma really needs to stop being a Hookblock. And then I thought about it, and since things picked up where they left off, it's not actually now but in the past and I was going to complain about the headstone being up so fast, but then I remembered Rumple has magic and it was a legitimate reason!

 

I'm glad I went and watched Frozen when I heard that it was going to be on OUAT, because I didn't fall into the mania when it first came out, I think the show did a good job of introducing the characters to those few hold outs who might not have seen it yet.

 

I'm guessing Elsa was put in the urn voluntarily, because she thought she was too dangerous because she had her gloves on. At first I thought she recognized Rumple in the paper, but seeing the necklace was a nice little surprise.

 

But yeah, seriously, Emma, stop being a Hookblock! I know I have eleventy billion TV boyfriends already, but I'm sure I can make room for one who wears guyliner if you don't want him.

[MadyGirl1987]

The Frozen stuff was good. It is a logical place for it to go from where the movie ended. The only thing I had a complaint about is Elsa thinking her parents thought she was monster. Do we ever see that from them? In fact, ELSA is the one who doesn't want them to touch her. I read them as doing what they thought was best for Elsa, however misguided.

 

Regina is just childish and spiteful. I understand your hurt, but grow-up. Stuff happens. What would she do if Robin got killed somehow? I appreciate shades of grey as much as the next person, but to just forsake 3 seasons of supposed  character development?

 

About the hat; what if Rumple was the apprentice?

[Sakura12]

I decided to tune in again to see how they handled the Frozen characters. I stopped watching during the Peter Pan arc. I did like the Frozen parts of this show but the rest seems to not have changed much. Regina and Rumple are still waffling between being kind of good and straight up evil, Emma is the savior with intermittent magic powers and Henry is still the weakest actor.

 

Hopefully it's still good when Queen Elsa actually meets the rest of characters. 

[Notwisconsin]

And yes, the Fantasia hat? I felt despair well in my chest. The very few withered hopes that this was a show with some sort of theme/message-based purpose died on the vine, and i accept it's just 100% "squeeze in as many disney references as we can" drivel.

The show's message/purpose is to show that the Disney version is more authentic than the original Grimm/Andersen verisions.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I am hoping the saving of Marian causes....issues with more then just Regina. I know Emma's motives were pure but the first rule of time travel is you don't fuck with time unless you want your mother to get a raging crush on you.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[DeLurker]

I got thrown out of the fastasy in the opening scene when the Queen Mum is searching frantically for pen and parchment to write to Elsa and Anna.  She's writing with what looks like a ball point pen, albeit a fancy one.  Seems like a quill pen would have been the order of the day.  And with the ship sloshing about the high seas and water everyone, including that cabin, I'm thinking it should be one big inky smudge she's writing while running a jack hammer.

 

Of course, when the letter in the bottle is eventually found it will have perfect, even artistic, penmanship.

 

I was underwhelmed with Rumple last night.  His monologue graveside started out well, but then veered into "I found true love with Belle and will now try to be better".  I have a low tolerance threshold for Belle anyway - the actress is way over her head with Robert Carlye scenes.  I liked her pairing with Ariel though - they were young, cute and with more enthusiasm than brains.  Kind of charming.

 

And Rumple had none of his spark - even in the ballroom scene.  Carlye phoning in his lines is way better than most actors really delivering, but last night seemed way off.

Edited September 29, 2014 by DeLurker

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I am hoping the saving of Marian causes....issues with more then just Regina. I know Emma's motives were pure but the first rule of time travel is you don't fuck with time unless you want your mother to get a raging crush on you.

[FurryFury]

So, was I the only one whose first thought during Regina's "Find the writer" speech was that she has already succeeded? Maybe she actually did find him (them) and compelled them, with a spell, to make her the hero and let her get her happy ending. This is why Once has been gradually changing into Regina's show! This is why all Charmings forget about her villainous past and Robin Hood acts like he's either brainwashed or the biggest douche since Nealfire! (or ever) Maybe we, the viewers, have a real-life epic quest - to free Adam and Eddy from the Evil Queen's magic and get our show back!

[apgold]

I kind of found the Frozen scenes a bit clunky but the actress playing Elsa is doing a nice job making her three dimensional.  I guess OUAT wants to have 6 year old girls tune in.   At least nobody is singing "Let it Go" or even said that (yet).

 

Nice to see Sidney back.  I guess after Revolution was canceled, Giancarlo Esposito was available for work.  There was a weird continuity issue during his scene with Regina in the cell.  I'm not even sure the actors were in the same room.  When they shot the back of Regina's head, someone standing in for her and wearing a much shorter wig than Lana's hair.  Found it very distracting.

 

I don't mind Evil Regina even if it's a case of wash, rinse, repeat.  It took her a long time to give her heart to Robin and now he's broken it.  You can't just expect her to go on without falling into her old habits.   And I'm interested to see where the "writer" is.

[scenicbyway]

First, I loved the Frozen story woven into Once.  I thought it could go really badly but I'm really pleased with where they seem to be going.  I thought all of the new actors did a great job.  Georgina has a great presence as Elsa.  I just wish we could've seen Anna and Kristoff together before she went rushing off.  I thought it was pretty in character for Anna to sneak off to help Elsa too.

 

I feel like Rumple's story died when Neal did and they are just making up things for Robert to do now (first Zelena, now a magic box).  Rumple's whole motivation has been finding Bae but it puzzles me that when he did, they basically had nothing to do with each other anyway.  It was good to show Rumple saying goodbye at the grave but I wish the writers would "Let It Go".  Perhaps they really are thinking they should've named Snowflake something else besides Neal.  After what he did to Emma (and continued to do) I'll never see him as a "hero" no matter how hard the writers try to make it so.  I like the idea of a Beauty and the Beast dance scene, but I really hated it.  I don't know if it was the snappy camera work, (I did like the music) but the lighting was weird as were the dance moves.  Maybe if they had shot it at night?  I still really hate the Belle/Rumple relationship anyway so I'm more than slightly biased.  I also have no interest in Rumple's new box/hat toy.

 

Snow/Charming and Henry didn't really have much to do in this episode and I thought the scene walking along the sidewalk was incredibly awkward.  Where did Henry and Charming go?  Why did Marry Margaret have to back up and change direction, couldn't Hook and Emma have stopped with MM walking forward?

 

I didn't mind Regina--I get that she thought she had her happy ending and that she thought she deserved it because she's made a few changes.  I didn't read her as angry with Emma but more just disappointed over all in the situation.  At least she didn't fireball Marian.  I thought the scene with Robin was one of the best of the night.  It's clear he loves her as just she loves him.  He didn't want an argument with her over being honorable, etc.  Marian is just annoying overall, I think we're supposed to not like her, but I still can't figure out how she wasn't "snowed" and how Regina just randomly ending up in the forest.  Did Regina even know there was a Snow Monster or was she just stopping by Robin's camp?

 

Captain Swan--More please.  I felt sorry for Colin a bit, it was in the high 80's when they were filming the episode and he must've been boiling in that costume.  His face was completely flushed in several scenes.  I like that Emma's not really ignoring him, they are chasing bad guys down together and she invited him to watch Netflix, so I'd call that progress.  They literally had kissed just the night before so I'm not sure why everyone was wanting them to define their relationship so quickly.  I do think there will be bumps (even made up Frozen ones) but that's the nature of the show.

 

What has me concerned overall is that premieres and finales are so often related.  We saw Anna leave her love the day before her wedding to go on an adventure to help her sister without a second thought.  We saw Emma play Anna to Regina's Elsa with the door scene.  I'm really concerned that they could be setting up the 3.11 finale to have Emma take off on some solo quest to help Regina. Ugh.

[FurryFury]

Jokes aside, I didn't like the episode, mostly because of (surprise!) Regina stuff. However, it helped to reach the decision to just skip everything about her and Robin (I don't watch live). Also, not enough Charmings and especially Emma. I really, really hope it will change because they are the reason for me to watch, and certainly not Regina or the villain of the half-season. 

 

Speaking about the half-season arc, I didn't expect to like Elsa so much! I mean, I liked her well enough in Frozen, but I wasn't sure she'll work in live action, but kudos to Georgina Haig - she totally did! She doesn't feel quite the same, but is pretty darn awesome anyway. Anna, though, was kinda one-note. Not awfully bad, but worse than Elsa and Kristoff. I guess the lack of acting experience does show. It's not distracting, though, so I can live with it. Not much chemistry with Elsa, though.

 

Rumple finding the hat felt... kinda random, to be honest. Not the greatest way to kick-start a new storyline. And honeymooning in someone's vacant house? Wow, Belle, are you a teenage delinquent? The lack of ideas is sometimes staggering. There's bound to be a better way to let Rumple find the McGuffin of the week.

[AmeliaBedelia]

On rewatch, I noticed a few things I had missed.

 

When Anna put the dress on, it did not look like the same wedding dress that had been hanging up.

 

Hook and Charming were laying with their heads next to each other on the ground when "unconscious." That was adorable.

 

Emma actually said, "Now you wanna go home and watch Netflix?" It was more of a sarcastic comment than I originally thought, but it definitely fits her character and Hook wasn't deterred.

[Dani-Ellie]

They literally had kissed just the night before so I'm not sure why everyone was wanting them to define their relationship so quickly.

 

Exactly. And Emma didn't shut him down, she asked him for patience, which I don't think is something entirely uncalled for because taking a step like that is a big step for her, not just with him but with everyone. I mean, hell, it took a trip through time for her to recognize how attached she'd grown to her parents. Hook can read her like a book; that's how he knew she was using the business with Regina as an excuse. I liked that in the end, all Hook was asking for was honesty.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Emma]

Captain Swan--More please. I felt sorry for Colin a bit, it was in the high 80's when they were filming the episode and he must've been boiling in that costume. His face was completely flushed in several scenes. I like that Emma's not really ignoring him, they are chasing bad guys down together and she invited him to watch Netflix, so I'd call that progress. They literally had kissed just the night before so I'm not sure why everyone was wanting them to define their relationship so quickly. I do think there will be bumps (even made up Frozen ones) but that's the nature of the show.

Agreed. I kept wondering just how much Emma could be avoiding him since everything had just happened the night before.

[tv echo]

I liked Elsa a lot (Georgina Haig was great), but thought Anna and Kristof were only meh.  I enjoyed the Frozen scenes, but they seemed to belong on a different show.  I also wanted to yell at Anna to change out of the white wedding dress when she went running out to the rock trolls.  It was also a bit ludicrous that Anna sails off the day before her wedding.  I'm sure a lot of preparations and money were spent on that wedding.

 

Sometimes I found the episode disconcerting like the show couldn't decide if it was going to be a children's show or a more PG show - for example, the scene with Kristof and Sven versus the scene with Regina and Sidney.

 

If we, the viewers, are expected to forgive Regina for her past evil deeds (which, given all the repeated statements about how she's not the same person as she was before), then it makes sense that Robin is supposed to do the same.  He fell in love with the present Regina, who he's only seen as doing good things.  I think TPTB are trying too hard to keep Regina on the show and that they believe that will only work if she has some redemption.  Otherwise, the good guys would've killed her already.  The problem is, she committed some really awful murders and other heinous acts.

 

I have to give some credit to Robin Hood for sticking with his marriage vows to his wife, Marian, even though he's now apparently in love with Regina.  It's possible that he still has feelings for Marian.  Right or wrong, at least he made a choice and was honest with both women.  Remember, in Season 1, David was in a similar position where he was married to Katherine but fell in love with Mary Margaret.  However, David tried to keep both his wife and his girlfriend, cheated on his wife, and lied to both women.  So in that respect, Robin is better than David.  I guess David could use the excuse that he was cursed at the time. 

 

I'm over Rumple/Gold and Belle.  That Beauty & the Beast dance was overkill.

[Aliasscape]

I really wouldn't expect Elsa to lose the dress anytime soon. You have no idea how huge that dress is to the Frozen fans, some nitpicking it's not quite exactly right but for the kids it's really important. You put a blanket near a little girl right, she puts it on, pretends it's a cape and exclaims "I'm Elsa!"

 

The breakdown of who who watched this premiere is something.

Once Fans who've seen Frozen

Once Fans who haven't seen Frozen

Frozen fans who caught up on Once

Frozen Fans who've never seen Once before

Ex Once Frozen fans that were willing to jump back in

 

And yes, Hook is NEEDY. My goodness, you just had two days in the past with Emma and no one else. How dare she wanna spend the next morning with her family.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Aliasscape

[Rumsy4]

 

And Rumple had none of his spark - even in the ballroom scene.  Carlye phoning in his lines is way better than most actors really delivering, but last night seemed way off.

 

I felt the same, DeLurker. There was a spark missing. He didn't look like an excited newly wed. Either that's how Carlyle meant to play it, or he was losing interest (his scottish accent seemed strong at one point too). Belle and Rumple scenes were quite blase, and I agree with the person who said Rumple freezing Belle had tones of spousal abuse. And why didn't he make the fake-dagger vanish, instead of hiding the clunky object in his coat-pocket? 

[KingOfHearts]

 

And yes, Hook is NEEDY. My goodness, you just had two days in the past with Emma and no one else. How dare she wanna spend the next morning with her family.

 

Yeah, the whole Emma avoiding him was exaggerated, imo. It had literally been only hours after they kissed. It's perfectly logical for her to be back off of him a little bit the next day because the kiss was such a big deal for her. It's not like she went out of her way to not be around him at all, either. I see it more as Hook being over-eager and excited while Emma is dealing with some emotional stuff inside.

 

 

I agree with the person who said Rumple freezing Belle had tones of spousal abuse

Do not like the freezing spell. It's so overpowered. It's like hacking life.

Edited September 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

And yes, Hook is NEEDY. My goodness, you just had two days in the past with Emma and no one else. How dare she wanna spend the next morning with her family.

 

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say he's being needy or even that he wants to put a name on whatever has started.  I think it's fine for him to call her out on avoiding him which is something Emma has basically done to everyone in her entourage once or twice.  I think he was also out to prove the point that when there's no crisis, it's okay to just live in the moment which everyone in town seems to be able to do, including the Charmings. 

 

I think he was being more her friend than her "boyfriend" in waiting.

[FurryFury]

Remember, in Season 1, David was in a similar position where he was married to Katherine but fell in love with Mary Margaret.  However, David tried to keep both his wife and his girlfriend, cheated on his wife, and lied to both women.  So in that respect, Robin is better than David.  I guess David could use the excuse that he was cursed at the time.

 

Oh, we may yet get Robin being all torn between Regina and Marian and cheating on his wife either literally or at least emotionally. Also, the show actually did understand David Nolan was an awful douche and the only thing that post-s1 Charming has in common with his is his name. I doubt it will be ever be as self aware with Regina and Robin.

[elle]

I thought the troll was cute and I liked how they did Sven.

 

I thought the troll-rock cgi was well done, but shouldn't it have been grand-ma'ish troll who talked with them instead?

 

Sven!  I loved Sven!  Sven needs to come to Storybrooke, leave Kristoff at home.

 

I have been extremely tolerant of Regina's redemption arch.  She was a victim of abuse and grew up with a twisted sense of love because of it.  That doesn't excuse the things she's done, but it made me sympathetic enough that I was willing to see her earn a happy ending.

 

This episode pretty much killed that for me finally.  It was the straw that broke the camel's back.  I'm done.  She wants instant gratification, instant happiness.  She thinks the bare bones of being a decent person (ie not actively murdering anyone in, like, a couple months) means she's entitled to happiness.  Grow the fuck up.  I'm tired of her tantrums.  I no longer care. 

 

When she said that it was time for the villains to get their happy endings, I wondered *which* happy ending did Regina mean?  The one she hoped to have with her stableboy, or the one her mother hoped to have with Snow's father?

 

 

While I liked Elsa's dress, is it the only thing she is allowed to wear for eternity? I'd like Marian and Elsa to transition to current fashion in the next episode or two. (Marian, especially if she's planning on staying around.)

 

It is her iconic dress, though personally I preferred the one she had on first in the movie.  I'm afraid she is going to be stuck in that dress for the duration.

 

I guess now I'm going to have to watch Fantasia?

I have adored that movie since my childhood!  I would hate for them to mess that up too.  (Although my first thought was, ooh does that mean we get the dinosaurs from the "Rite of Spring" section.)

[Danny Franks]

This show is completely goofy, but it's all worth it for little moments like the dwarf guy screaming "it's an evil snowman!" and Emma rolling her eyes at how ridiculous that statement, and her life as a result of the truth of statements like that, are.

 

I've never seen Frozen, and probably never will, but that girl playing Elsa is stunning, so I'll happily watch her fret and worry the season away.

 

One minor point, the guy playing Hook either needs a better prop or needs to realise that it won't fall off if he actually allows his arm to hang loose. Dude carries himself like he's wearing a sling.

[Rumsy4]

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say he's being needy or even that he wants to put a name on whatever has started.  I think it's fine for him to call her out on avoiding him which is something Emma has basically done to everyone in her entourage once or twice.  I think he was also out to prove the point that when there's no crisis, it's okay to just live in the moment which everyone in town seems to be able to do, including the Charmings. 

 

I think he was being more her friend than her "boyfriend" in waiting.

 

I think he was a little apprehensive if Emma was going to pretend that their kiss was a one-time thing, and if so, he would prefer it if she would talk to him about it than avoid him. After all, he is head over ears in love with Emma, and she knows it. However, I agree that the first "Are you avoiding me?" was overdone. But I did like his advise. Emma later did clarify that she wanted this, but needed time. Which is okay for now, but won't work for long term.

 

One minor point, the guy playing Hook either needs a better prop or needs to realise that it won't fall off if he actually allows his arm to hang loose. Dude carries himself like he's wearing a sling.

 

Yeah--Colin does tend to hold his arm in that way because the difference in length would be obvious otherwise (he's basically holding the hook in his left hand). He's done this for a while now, though.

[Helena Dax]

While I'm not sure it makes sense, I like Regina's plan. Trying to find the writer is interesting, I've always wondered who wrote that book. And it's better than trying to kill Marian. 

 

Poor Hook. I rewatched the last season finale some days ago and after that I really don't understand Emma's reaction to him in this episode. It's like she's doubting again, which okay, fine, but at least give me an explanation, you writers, because I haven't been waiting all summer for this!

[FurryFury]

Poor Hook. I rewatched the last season finale some days ago and after that I really don't understand Emma's reaction to him in this episode. It's like she's doubting again, which okay, fine, but at least give me an explanation, you writers, because I haven't been waiting all summer for this!

 

The real explanation is this: the writers want to drag out Hook/Emma romance for as long as possible without using the soapy clichés a la "Ex is back from the dead! Amnesia! Curse! Contrived misunderstandings!" (although I'm sure it will come to that eventually) and without giving the characters enough screen time to create something more logical and interesting. 

[FormerMod-a1]

Yeah--Colin does tend to hold his arm in that way because the difference in length would be obvious otherwise (he's basically holding the hook in his left hand). He's done this for a while now, though.

For a character reason, it could be so he doesn't accidentally snag things as he walks by.