S08.E03: Robot Of Sherwood

[Chip]

In a sun-dappled Sherwood Forest, The Doctor discovers an evil plan from beyond the stars. But with the fate of Nottingham at stake (and possibly Derby), there's no time for the two adventurers to get into a fight about who is real and who isn't - which is probably why they do very little else!

[Llywela]

Damn, this gave me cognitive dissonance like whoa.

 

On the one hand, this was a rollicking comedy historical a la the finest tradition of the 1960s - e.g.The Romans or The Mythmakers.

 

On the other hand, as a piece of modern-day television, the pacing was poor, too much of the comedy was way too forced, the Doctor was written as an idiot to bolster Clara's perfection, and the characterisation was paper-thin. Once again we have a story that doesn't entirely know what it wants to be, tries to achieve too many differing aims and ultimately doesn't quite hit any of them.

 

So close to being a really good episode, and yet.

[Elsinore]

I liked it. Better then last week.

 

I so called the knights being robots. They're a bit similar to Cybermen though. More streamlined.

 

The bickering was funny.

 

Next week looks interesting.

[Insomnia]

So new screwdriver next week, then, since his was in the castle?

[John Potts]

Overall, I thought this was silly but fun. Though I'm trying to work out - were Robin and/or the Sherriff robots?

 

And as an old school fan, I was wondering if the Robo Sherriff would meet the Robo Prince John/Chameno (who was later a Companion of the Fifth Doctor).

 

Llywela the Doctor was written as an idiot to bolster Clara's perfection

 

Yeah, that bugged me too. It's OK when the Doctor plays the fool to disarm his opponents - he shouldn't actually be the fool.

[AudienceofOne]

I usually really like Gatiss. And while this episode wasn't perfect, it was heads and shoulders above the first two.

 

I floved the frequent callbacks to the Third Doctor. We could have used that last episode. And Clara is kind of growing on me. It's nice to have a companion simply excited by the journey. It's what I liked about Martha and Donna.

 

Having said that, I felt Moffatt's hand in some of the clunky dialogue:

"When did you stop believing in anything?"

"When did you start believing in impossible heroes?"

"Don't you know?"

 

CLUNK.

 

And in the recurring Promised Land theme, which is already tiresome. And in the ridiculous idea that an alien space ship of robots would be programmed with Earth legends. And in the dumb arrow thing at the end. I've seen some anti-scientific nonsense from this so-called science fiction show in my time but that took the cake.

 

Basically, I really really enjoyed the first half but then it just degenerated into the standard Moffatt-era nonsense.

Edited September 7, 2014 by AudienceofOne

[Lantern7]

Well, there was no Missy. At least we have right, right? Honestly, I called the peasant girl with the Doctor to be to next to see her, but I was wrong.

 

I felt this was a good episode, especially with the Doctor doing everything short of whipping out a ruler on Robin Hood. Has the Doctor ever been this cynical about historical figures before? For an episode that sounded like it was constructed from the title downward, I thought it was pretty good. And it wasn't like this Robin could overtake Errol Flynn, or this Sheriff could outdo Alan Rickman. You gotta look for the victories wherever you can, even if it involves the Doctor fighting off a sword with a spoon.

[NCChic]

Well. The Doctor likes apples again it seems.

The silliness could have been a wee bit better had Cary Elwes been Robin.

I thought this episode overall was bumpy. And I guess I'll have to get used to Capaldi's being funny. It was just off for me. I sat there imagining either Matt of David saying those lines. I try not to do that so that I can give Capaldi's Doctor a chance, but I kept slipping.

[mac123x]

Dr. Who and the Episode Title Spoilers.  Good grief, I thought that went out with the classic show.  Not a bad episode, and I could actually understand 90% of the dialog over the background music for once.

 

I didn't care for the Doctor being such a dunderhead and Clara being little miss perfect.  I really thought having the Doctor be all petty and bickering with Robin Hood was character assassination.  He should be above that.

 

Promised Land again.  It's like Amy's pregnant / not pregnant thing, but less interesting.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I was bored. 

 

I did however like a few scenes like the scene the prison where Robin Hood and The Doctor were fighting and the guard came in saying that the Sheriff instructed him to find the true leader and both of course thought it was them but he took Clara and Clara just got up and looked  exasperated, looked at them and sand "Really."

 

Other then that the only good part was the ending where Robin and The Doctor were talking and Robin said he was glad that history forgot that he as a real person and instead thought of him as nothing more then a legend and then told the Doctor how he was Clara's here and the Doctor said he was no hero and Robin said neither was he but if they were very very luck that maybe others would be heroes in their name.  It took me awhile but I finally understood the point of the episode and why the Doctor didn't like Robin Hood in the first place.  Their stories are similar.  When you get down too it....the basics their stories are very similar.  

 

 

"When did you stop believing in anything?"
"When did you start believing in impossible heroes?"
"Don't you know?"

CLUNK.

 

 

Its clunky as hell but its a major theme of Who am I now?  for the doctor and why does Clara stay with him?    What does the Doctor believe in? At this point I have no idea.  At this point I am going to say nothing.  

Edited September 7, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[miles2go]

Better than the first two episodes -- but that's not saying much.

Parts of this I did really enjoy. I'm a fan of Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, and this story was very evocative of that.  But the bickering got to be very tiresome, and I'm really not keen on having the Doctor be a buffoon, which he was for most of this episode.

 

Need to watch this again, as I missed parts of it, but from what I've seen so far, I'll say "Meh".

[benteen]

I was looking forward to this one and I wasn't disappointed.  It was a lot of fun.  I particularly liked the end conversation between The Doctor and Robin.

 

Jenna was rocking that red gown.

 

Miniscope!  Carnival of Monsters reference (available on Netflix btw).

 

I did think the shouting between the Doctor and Robin got old and annoying really fast in the dungeon.

 

 

And in the recurring Promised Land theme, which is already tiresome. And in the ridiculous idea that an alien space ship of robots would be programmed with Earth legends.

 

Well, maybe they were delivering that material to the Promised Land.  Missy's heaven lets' you live out your fantasies like a holodeck.

Edited September 7, 2014 by benteen

[Meredith Quill]

This has been my favourite episode of the series so far. Not perfect but slowly improving imo. I know one of Moffatt's pre-season soundbites was "It's time for the old beast to snarl", and that's fine, but, only snarling gets old fast...

 

I especially appreciated the sneaking in of the famous (semi) historical quote "Will no one rid me of this turbulent p̶r̶i̶e̶s̶t̶...Doctor".

 

The archery contest was good fun too.

 

Didn't enjoy bickering Doctor/Robin, seemed beneath the Doctor to be so petty and trivial, at least he reunited Robin & Marian at the end so that earns him a few brownie points back in my book.

 

Promised Land; right now I'm completely meh about it.

[benteen]

I read that one of the pictures of Robin Hood shown was of an old Doctor Who character playing him.  I'm not sure who.

[Lantern7]

benteen . . .  according to Bleeding Cool, Patrick Troughton was the first actor to play Robin Hood on television, and they threw out a picture of him in a nice bit of serendipity.

[AudienceofOne]

I especially appreciated the sneaking in of the famous (semi) historical quote "Will no one rid me of this turbulent p̶r̶i̶e̶s̶t̶...Doctor".

 

 

See, that fell flat for me because it was so completely unrelated both to Robin Hood and to the story being told. It was like throwing in a reference to the Ides of March just because your story's set in Italy in the same century. You may as well as have a reference to letting the peasants eat cake because there were peasants and it's in the vicinity of Europe.

[futurechemist]

So this is the season of broken robots?  We had the clockwork cyborgs salvaging humans, then the broken Dalek, and now robots needing gold for their ship.  I'm glad it was more light-hearted.  The banter between Robin and the Doctor didn't bother me so much.  Nor did it bother me how in denial the Doctor was about Robin existing.  The Doctor does seem to be the kind of guy who needs to know everything and gets upset when someone proves him wrong.

 

I will call foul on the solution though.  I'm pretty sure a solid gold arrow won't be very aerodynamic.  Nor will the arrow hitting the bottom of the spaceship cause the gold to melt and enter the engine to get the ship into orbit.

Edited September 7, 2014 by futurechemist

[Meredith Quill]

See, that fell flat for me because it was so completely unrelated both to Robin Hood and to the story being told. It was like throwing in a reference to the Ides of March just because your story's set in Italy in the same century. You may as well as have a reference to letting the peasants eat cake because there were peasants and it's in the vicinity of Europe.

 

What you say is quite true and it was pretty random, but, nevertheless it amused me regardless ;)

[magdalene]

I liked it. It was daffy but I thought Robin  was charming and blithe and made a nice contrast to the Doctor who I guess is going to be Sir von Grumpy Pants every episode.

[Domenicholas]

I kept thinking throughout this episode how much better this episode would have been if it was an 11/Amy episode instead.  11's denial of Robin Hood would have come across as a bit OTT, which would have made it funny, which I think they were going for.  Him getting in a pissing contest with Hood to see who was superior, especially when frustrated, would be in character.  Amy being giddy about Robin Hood and being exasperated about the Doctor's/Robin's pissing contest would also be in character.  Now, we only had three episodes with 12, but arguing about plans seemed out of character with what's been established so far.  Clara- I honestly can't think of a defining trait of hers, but childlike wonder isn't one of them.

 

I knew that the woman from the village was Marian because Once Upon A Time did a similar reveal last season.

[buttersister]

I was excited that Capaldi would be 12. But tonight, I found myself switching over to Love Actually, which I've seen more times than I care to say, and forget to switch back. When I did, Clara was all that and the Doctor? Was all over the place. I'll try again at 11.

[alias1]

I thought it was fun.  And this Robin Hood was as charming as anyone who isn't Errol Flynn could be.  I loved Clara's enthusiasm and, yes, she rocked that red dress.  She does period costumes really well. 

 

I liked the conversation with the Doctor and Robin at the end and I wasn't expecting Marian to appear so that was a nice surprise for me. 

 

I am really liking this grumpy Doctor. 

 

Must we have a reference to The Promised Land in every episode? 

[tv-talk]

I didn't care for the Doctor being such a dunderhead and Clara being little miss perfect.  I really thought having the Doctor be all petty and bickering with Robin Hood was character assassination.  He should be above that.

 

 

Yeah the entire 'Doctor as intolerable jerk' doesnt do it for me at all, hope they move away from that fairly quickly. Grumpy Doctor is fine and even being downright mean on occasion I can accept but being a total jerk AND completely dense/incorrect? I dont like that. 

 

The pissing contest with Robin Hood might as well have been the 2 of them trying to impress Clara, they just didn't frame it as such.

 

That said I did really like the last scene so I maintain hope for how 12 evolves, just hope they back off this level of orneriness a bit. I do appreciate that it was an homage to Robin Hood of course though, and on that level it was fun.

Edited September 7, 2014 by tv-talk

[alias1]

So new screwdriver next week, then, since his was in the castle?

Good catch.  I wonder if they will explain anything about getting his screwdriver back.    

[random chance]

I sat there imagining either Matt of David saying those lines. I try not to do that so that I can give Capaldi's Doctor a chance, but I kept slipping.

 

I was doing that too, and I have never, ever done it before with any actor in any part.

 

the Doctor who I guess is going to be Sir von Grumpy Pants every episode.

He really does act like someone who only got a few hours of sleep and now they have to take this damn Tardis somewhere for no good reason.

[bmoore4026]

benteen . . .  according to Bleeding Cool, Patrick Troughton was the first actor to play Robin Hood on television, and they threw out a picture of him in a nice bit of serendipity.

Did they show a pic of Richard Greene?  I swear, that man rocked a pair of tights like it was nobody's business :D

 

Three episodes in and I'm really hoping this particular Doctor gets punched in the face multiple times.  It's not Capaldi's performance, it's how he's written.  It's depressing me.

Edited September 7, 2014 by bmoore4026

[tarotx]

I like this episode. 12 reminds me a bit of the Grandfather in Heidi type and I do really like him. He has lost all pride in himself but he's trying to be himself. Others being happy and Merry just seem fake and foreign to him. 

 

Clara has always loved stories and Books so her wanting to see Robin Hood seems like it could be in character. She has a lot of stories in her and her episodes.

 

This is the second week of 3 that we have a Spaceship of robots crashing in the past and trying to patch their ship or themselves up to try and make it to the Promise land. And really the other episode was also about a damaged metal shell creature needing repair. I sense a theme. We see where and how this goes. 

Edited September 7, 2014 by tarotx

[Maelstrom]

Enjoyed this one a lot more than the previous two episodes - IMO it felt closer to the fun adventures I loved during Nine and Ten's eras. I even liked Clara a couple of times ("both of you shut up!") though I agree with the general sentiment that the Doctor's character was sacrificed to make Clara look better. Boo-urns.

 

I have to confess that whenever Robin Hood was onscreen I thought of Mel Brooks' Men in Tights (probably not what they were going for), and kept getting pulled out of the episode. Was I the only one waiting for Rabbi Tuckman to show up?

 

Must we have a reference to The Promised Land in every episode? 

I was just glad it was only a brief mention and nothing more (i.e. no Missy). What can I say, my expectations in the Moffatt-era are low.

[mac123x]

.  Clara- I honestly can't think of a defining trait of hers,

 

 

She's becoming a Mary Sue.  She was clever getting the Sherrif to spill the beans, she was more level-headed than the Doctor, looked perfect in period clothing, said all the right things to Robin, etc. 

 

I do like the suggestion someone made above that the reason the Doctor is so bitchy to Robin Hood is that he sees himself in the same light.  It made Robin's speech at the end seem relevant.  I still don't like the Doctor being the last person to figure shit out though. 

 

Another annoyance:  more "eww, you're OLD" jokes (and I use that term loosely).  I will admit, however, that I did laugh about Robin's crack about the Doctor's sallow complexion.  "Scots aren't that familiar with vegetables."

[Llywela]

She's becoming a Mary Sue.  She was clever getting the Sherrif to spill the beans, she was more level-headed than the Doctor, looked perfect in period clothing, said all the right things to Robin, etc.

I agree, and I always hesitate to use the phrase 'Mary Sue' because it's so often misused, but it applies here. So does 'manic pixie dream girl'. Clara has been designed as an ideal, not as a person. She is not permitted to make mistakes - her struggle to accept the new Doctor aside, everything she does has to be perfect. They even made a minisode where the Doctor describes her as perfect for him in every way. Even her flaws are presented as cute and quirky rather than actual, you know, flaws. She isn't a person. She's a middle-aged man's ideal of what 'the perfect Doctor Who companion' should be - Moffat has admitted that's how he designs his companions, he sits down and asks himself what sort of person would be perfect for the Doctor, what sort of person would want to travel with the Doctor? And Clara is the result: a character carefully assembled from all the elements he believed would make her perfect. Trouble is, he forgot that she also needs to be a person. She never seems to struggle with anything, everything is always effortless for her, but the trouble is that it's the struggle that makes a character rootable, it's what engages our interest and empathy; if there's no struggle, there's also nothing to engage with and root for.

 

I bang on about my preference for the classic series a fair bit and it comes into play again here, I admit, because those characters may not have been well developed, but by heck at least no one tries to sell them to me as perfect in any way. They are all splendidly imperfect, in fact. Most of them are not the sort of person who'd have gone off on these travels by choice, at least initially. That's what makes them interesting. That's what gives them an engaging journey as a character, having to cope with being on these travels anyway, learning to rub along with the Doctor, learning what they are capable of, learning to appreciate the opportunity they've been given - perhaps wanting to go home anyway. They work and struggle for their victories, which gives those victories meaning and value, whether major or minor. If the classic show could give us that, in a time when characters were barely developed at all, how much better should those stories be when told today? Yet Clara can't have a journey like that because she has been 'perfect' from the start. She disappoints me so much because I want so badly to like her but she's written in a way that makes it impossible. I'm less and less enamoured of Jenna Coleman's acting, too, because I can feel and see her acting, rather than feeling and seeing the character - or perhaps that's the writing again, because instead of being clearly and consistently defined, the character becomes whatever this week's plot requires her to be, which has got to be hard for an actor to get their teeth into. Most of the time, the direction for Coleman seems to be 'act cute, be adorable, make them love you' - no substance of an actual character there.

 

And Capaldi's Doctor desperately needs to be allowed a little charm to sit alongside his gruff demeanour. I always say that the biggest flaw in the modern show is that it never knows when to pull back - always pushes that bit too far. It's doing it again now: taking Clara's perfection too far, taking the Doctor's grumpiness too far. Plenty of Doctors have been gruff but they need to also have that element of charm to offset it. This Doctor isn't being given that - things like his dislike of Robin being taken too far, well beyond the joke.

 

I squeed at the Patrick Troughton cameo though, giggled out loud with glee. I never realised before that Ben Miller is an absolute ringer for Anthony Ainley - seriously, if he'd claimed to be the Master I'd have believed him because the whole scheme was right up the classic Masters' street! There were loads of references and call-backs to the classic show, which pleased me muchly. I just wish the characters in general had been allowed to feel a bit more like real people. In terms of comedy historical Doctor Who, for me this sits on a par with The Myth Makers, which is also loads of fun as long as you don't require any serious or in-depth characterisation - well below the standard of The Romans, which manages to be really funny while also doing a decent job with the characters.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Llywela

[Mr. Simpatico]

I agree, and I always hesitate to use the phrase 'Mary Sue' because it's so often misused, but it applies here. So does 'manic pixie dream girl'. Clara has been designed as an ideal, not as a person. She is not permitted to make mistakes - her struggle to accept the new Doctor aside, everything she does has to be perfect. They even made a minisode where the Doctor describes her as perfect for him in every way. Even her flaws are presented as cute and quirky rather than actual, you know, flaws. She isn't a person. She's a middle-aged man's ideal of what 'the perfect Doctor Who companion' should be...

 

I don't think Clara is a Mary Sue (she is not presented as super perfect in-universe) but manic pixie dream girl definitely fits. I was getting that vibes in her interactions with 11 (where she got him out of his post-Pond funk by becoming the Impossible GIrl) and last week with Danny Pink (shell-shocked former soldier gets asked out within minutes of this gorgeous co-worker, he refuses, berates himself about and she follows listening to him and asks him out again) and for 12 I guess she's supposed to be his conscience. What's weird is that Moffat's previous companions (Amy and Rory) were never presented as perfect and you could understand 11's attachment to them but Clara, the girl who has lived dozens of lives, saved and seen the doctor in ALL his incarnations (even the Brig couldn't say that) and was responsible for Gallifrey giving him a new set of regenerations - how can even the Doctor compete or argue with her? This whole episode was basically - "Clara is right about everything".

 

I always say that the biggest flaw in the modern show is that it never knows when to pull back - always pushes that bit too far. It's doing it again now: taking Clara's perfection too far, taking the Doctor's grumpiness too far.

 

I wonder if Moffat is trying to do what JNT tried to do with Colin Baker's Sixth. Make him deliberately overly arrogant and off-putting to the audience and SLOWLY show him change. Of course the BBC never gave C. Baker any time to do that so he ended his run unliked by most but the current regime at the BBC realizes Doctor Who is their cash cow and will probably give Moffat all the time he wants. Personally I'd love to see 12 show some charm and a softer side as well (and Capaldi has done it well- handling both sides - in numerous other roles).

 

This episode was a bit better than the previous two. Gattis seems a superior "one and done" kind of writer than Moffat. I liked the idea of it though the execution was dodgy. Some of the Doctor's behavior just didn't ring true. Yes, I can see him being cynical about a legendary figure like RH being real but they took it way over the top to where he was just obnoxious about it. Also the Doctor KNOWS he is a legend in some parts of the galaxy already. This was brought up quite a a bit during 11's run. The idea that the Doctor (especially one who now knows he didn't destroy Gallifrey) still wonders whether he qualifies as a hero is strange. As far back as Pertwee the Doctor had no problem with taking on that mantle.

 

I squeed at the Patrick Troughton cameo though, giggled out loud with glee.

 

I didn't even notice it till I googled why they didn't use Flynn or Richard Greene. Now that Easter Egg was well done!

[Kalliste]

I'm surprised that I actually enjoyed this episode as I thought I was really going to dislike it. I never really found the Doctor to be the fool. He didn't think Robin Hood existed, was surprised when he found him and was suspicious that everything was too perfect, and he was right. He got caught because he wanted to get caught. The only thing I think they took too far was his bickering with Robin where I started getting a bit bored, even though it only went on for a minute or so.

 

I did like his "at least Clara wasn't here to see that" and I thought there was a bit more humour in 12 this episode. 

 

I liked him cheating at archery and having to admit it at the end, I also liked his uprising with the peasants... however you would expect the robots would have been a bit smarter after the first time and why didn't they take their trays with them!

 

I also liked seeing more of his tardis and that we didn't see any of Clara's 'real life' this time.. plus she looked great this episode. Her hair looked beautiful and the dress was lovely!

[pootlus]

I will call foul on the solution though.  I'm pretty sure a solid gold arrow won't be very aerodynamic.  Nor will the arrow hitting the bottom of the spaceship cause the gold to melt and enter the engine to get the ship into orbit.

 

Well to be fair I don't think it was ever intended to be remotely realistic, but unfortunately it really blew away what credibility the episode had for me. I mean judging by the amount of gold they'd already used an arrow was going to be...what? 0.01%? And why leave that giant tub of molten gold behind (the one the Sheriff fell into)?

[wayne67]

I alternately laughed at the episode and yelled at the Doctor. Essentially it boiled down to "Doctor don't be mean to the cute guy with 6 months to live". It seemed really OOC for the Doctor to engage in such juvenile behavior with Robin Hood now that he's lived so long. I got flashbacks of the First Doctor except he's had a dozen life times since then and it rings false now. 

 

Also has the Doctor completely lost interest in Gallifrey now ?  Is that even a thing he's working on any more ? Does the Doctor have any goals ? Does Clara ? 

 

As for peasants fighting against robots from the 29th century. That hurt my brain. Those robots only fire lasers ? They couldn't have simply walked forward and smacked the unarmed peasants. 

 

 

 

[ABay]

I never realised before that Ben Miller is an absolute ringer for Anthony Ainley - seriously,

Yes! I couldn't believe how much he looked like Ainley as the Master!

 

I really enjoyed the episode and love grumpy Doctor and the OTT bickering with Robin didn't bother me. I was hoping for a reference to DaVinci's submarine when Robin and Clara went into the water--the actor playing Robin is Leonardo in Davinci's Demons.

[HauntedBathroom]

This episode didn't really work for me, although I'll catch the re-run tonight and hopefully it'll flow better on second viewing. it just seemed out of balance - the whole Sherwood set up was ridiculously cheesy, Gatiss even gave an in-episode explanation for how cheesy it was, and yet degree educated Clara never thought there was anything odd about this? I know her degree is in English, not history, but she must be smart enough to know that very few people living in woods in the 12th century had the perfect gnashers that Robin was flashing. And yet she thought it was strange that the Doctor didn't buy this?

 

Plus, if the episode was looking to parody the Robin Hood legend (and let's be honest, all Gatiss can write for Who is parody), it did feel a little jarring whenever it wanted us to consider the truth of the man behind the myth. It's either a silly romp or a character piece, I've seen nothing to make me think Gatiss has the skills to do both at the same time.

Edited September 7, 2014 by HauntedBathroom

[tv echo]

My understanding is that, despite what the Doctor first believed, Robin Hood was a real person who, over time, came to be believed to be a mythical legend.  I get that, but still his archery skills seemed unbelievably good.

 

I was disappointed in this episode.  I didn't have a problem with the Doctor's skepticism (although I was surprised that he wouldn't know whether or not Robin Hood was real).  But the alpha competitive bickering with Robin Hood while chained in the dungeon seemed silly and childish of the Doctor.  The Doctor has landed in plenty of strange situations where he has to quickly gain the trust of people who meet him for the first time and they somehow instinctively recognize his authority and follow him.  So this kind of bickering with another male just seems beneath the Doctor.

 

I got the impression from some of the dialogue in this episode that the producers were still acting out of their extrasensitivity to the older age of the new Doctor.  So you got young Robin Hood's cracks about him being an old man and you got the Doctor's jibes about Robin Hood's good looks being too perfect not to be a robot (his square chin, etc.).  The Doctor has been around human beings long enough to have seen plenty of attractive humans.

 

I'm finding it difficult to respect the new Doctor so far.

Edited September 7, 2014 by tv echo

[Primetimer]

The Doctor told Clara he's not her boyfriend, so she may want to figure out who is -- with this (fake) online dating profile Jeff Alexander unearthed!

Read the story

[Insomnia]

So this is the season of broken robots?  We had the clockwork cyborgs salvaging humans, then the broken Dalek, and now robots needing gold for their ship.  I'm glad it was more light-hearted.

 

The Sheriff was also a robot - though we didn't get to see it, so I'm not sure it's going to come in to play, unless he comes back which will make the hand shot make more sense.

 

See, the Sheriff was supposed to get his head cut off and he re-attached it according to a leaked script. However, due to recent happenings in the world, BBC decided to remove that bit.

[Writing Wrongs]

More lines about how old The Doctor looks. Yay.

 

I'm just not feeling the new Doctor. I think if he was by himself, I'd like the show better. Clara doesn't do anything for me at all.

 

I think I'm out.

[Llywela]

I don't think Clara is a Mary Sue (she is not presented as super perfect in-universe) but manic pixie dream girl definitely fits. I was getting that vibes in her interactions with 11 (where she got him out of his post-Pond funk by becoming the Impossible GIrl) and last week with Danny Pink (shell-shocked former soldier gets asked out within minutes of this gorgeous co-worker, he refuses, berates himself about and she follows listening to him and asks him out again) and for 12 I guess she's supposed to be his conscience. What's weird is that Moffat's previous companions (Amy and Rory) were never presented as perfect and you could understand 11's attachment to them but Clara, the girl who has lived dozens of lives, saved and seen the doctor in ALL his incarnations (even the Brig couldn't say that) and was responsible for Gallifrey giving him a new set of regenerations - how can even the Doctor compete or argue with her? This whole episode was basically - "Clara is right about everything".

I do feel that Clara is verging toward Mary Sue. She kind of is perfect in-universe - her only flaws are presented as cute quirks - and everyone she meets falls for her immediately, Robin Hood being case in point. I loathe that she was set up by a single overblown episode as the Ultimate Companion, who got to meet and save every Doctor, off-screen, because it feels disrespectful to all her predecessors, Moffat trying to outdo them all with his own creation. And then nothing was even done with that in the aftermath. It happened. And now it might as well not have happened for all the impact its had. She could be the Doctor's conscience without being right about everything while he is always wrong. There needs to be balance.

 

 

I wonder if Moffat is trying to do what JNT tried to do with Colin Baker's Sixth. Make him deliberately overly arrogant and off-putting to the audience and SLOWLY show him change. Of course the BBC never gave C. Baker any time to do that so he ended his run unliked by most but the current regime at the BBC realizes Doctor Who is their cash cow and will probably give Moffat all the time he wants. Personally I'd love to see 12 show some charm and a softer side as well (and Capaldi has done it well- handling both sides - in numerous other roles).

I think Moffat has said that's his intention and I also think Capaldi likes the idea so is playing it that way. But there's still a danger inherent in making your lead too unlikeable - better to allow him at least a little charm. I was fine with him in this episode until the prolonged juvenile antics with Robin in the dungeon - come on, I know the Doctor enjoys being childish but there are limits.

 

This episode was a bit better than the previous two. Gattis seems a superior "one and done" kind of writer than Moffat. I liked the idea of it though the execution was dodgy. Some of the Doctor's behavior just didn't ring true. Yes, I can see him being cynical about a legendary figure like RH being real but they took it way over the top to where he was just obnoxious about it. Also the Doctor KNOWS he is a legend in some parts of the galaxy already. This was brought up quite a a bit during 11's run. The idea that the Doctor (especially one who now knows he didn't destroy Gallifrey) still wonders whether he qualifies as a hero is strange. As far back as Pertwee the Doctor had no problem with taking on that mantle.

Alas this is a very modern disease in television - this requirement to find an 'arc' for the characters each year, which usually means making them learn the same old lessons over and over and calling it development. Character development is good, but arc-based character development usually results in repetition and regression and rarely works well.

 

I didn't even notice it till I googled why they didn't use Flynn or Richard Greene. Now that Easter Egg was well done!

I spotted Troughton immediately and missed a chunk of the scene because I was giggling with delight!

This episode didn't really work for me, although I'll catch the re-run tonight and hopefully it'll flow better on second viewing. it just seemed out of balance - the whole Sherwood set up was ridiculously cheesy, Gatiss even gave an in-episode explanation for how cheesy it was, and yet degree educated Clara never thought there was anything odd about this? I know her degree is in English, not history, but she must be smart enough to know that very few people living in woods in the 12th century had the perfect gnashers that Robin was flashing. And yet she thought it was strange that the Doctor didn't buy this?

 

Plus, if the episode was looking to parody the Robin Hood legend (and let's be honest, all Gatiss can write for Who is parody), it did feel a little jarring whenever it wanted us to consider the truth of the man behind the myth. It's either a silly romp or a character piece, I've seen nothing to make me think Gatiss has the skills to do both at the same time.

 

My understanding is that, despite what the Doctor first believed, Robin Hood was a real person who, over time, came to be believed to be a mythical legend.  I get that, but still his archery skills seemed unbelievably good.

The episode definitely wasn't sure what it wanted to achieve - and as a result fell between two hurdles, both presenting Robin Hood and his merry men as a parody for the Doctor to be suspicious of and wanting us to believe in them as real people. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work. They were too much of a parody, their characterisation paper-thin, and an unlikely speech from Robin to Clara info-dumping his entire backstory does not magically confer depth on an implausible set-up! It's disappointing because Doctor Who can do wonderful period pieces...but this wasn't one of them. I can enjoy it as a parody. But it would have taken so little tightening up to turn it from improbable and vaguely OOC fluff to something both funny and marvellous, so it's disappointing that it didn't do better.

[marceline]

So it looks like the "OMG! The Doctor is so OLD!!" thing is going to be an ongoing thing this season. It doesn't need to be. The point was made in the premiere now it's just overkill.

 

Speaking of overkill, I could've lived without the heavy Christianity corollary of The Doctor's erroneous belief that the Robin Hood was a robot because he was meant to be a larger than life mythical figure to keep people hopeful and docile and tell the pudding heads how to behave. Impossible hero = Robin Hood = The Doctor = Christ figure) Although, maybe it's meant to tie into this new Doctor's apparent love/hate relationship with humanity. This doctor really seems to have a lower opinion of people than the previous two.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

This was a filler episode.  Don't get me wrong.  In theory I don't hate filler episodes.  They don't move episodes forward but in recent years have been used as character studies.  The former Doctor was young and jovial this one is older and a bit more....uh less jovial.  He is still trying to figure out who he is.  I actually enjoyed the bickering between The Doctor and Robin Hood that was the only thing I did enjoy.  The rest was boring.   The scene in the prison with Robin, The Doctor and Clara was funny when the guard showed up talking about how the Sheriff had ordered him to take the one truly in charge away and both Robin and The Doctor assumed it would be them but of course he took Clara was the kind of humor I expect from this show.   I also enjoyed the end conversation between Robin and The Doctor when they talked about what they actually do have in common.  

 

Other then that this really is the least of the three.  Ironically for me it goes 1, 2, 3.  

Edited September 7, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[NeenerNeener]

 

I sat there imagining either Matt of David saying those lines. I try not to do that so that I can give Capaldi's Doctor a chance, but I kept slipping.

I was doing that too, and I have never, ever done it before with any actor in any part.

 

 

Oh, thank dog I'm not the only one doing that, then! I keep imagining Matt saying all of Twelve's lines. I never did that when Tennant took over for Eccleston, or when Smith took over for Tennant, but I just can't help it with Capaldi. I don't know whether that's a testament to the power of Matt's acting, or whether the writers don't think they need to write a distinctive style for Twelve.

[shapeshifter]

The Sheriff was also a robot - though we didn't get to see it, so I'm not sure it's going to come in to play, unless he comes back which will make the hand shot make more sense.

 

See, the Sheriff was supposed to get his head cut off and he re-attached it according to a leaked script. However, due to recent happenings in the world, BBC decided to remove that bit.

Unless they edited the script and reshot and edited in all of a week or two, I think this must be a legend.

Regardless, I enjoyed this episode and did not care at all for the 2 previous.

Marion's father seemed selfish when he spat at the sheriff, since it was bound to end in his execution in front of her.

[Insomnia]

Unless they edited the script and reshot and edited in all of a week or two, I think this must be a legend.

They wouldn't need to reshoot anything for a brief deleted scene. I would agree it might be a legend if it was reported after the show had aired, however it was not. (The last link is from the BBC, and posted on the 4th.)

Edited September 7, 2014 by Insomnia

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I don't think Clara is A Mary Sue. I tend to think people are too quick to put that label on characters they don't like. Would her actions have worked with you on any of the other companions over the years? (choose your own adventure). The problem isn't Clara. It is the Doctor. She has no idea who he is. All she has is her faith in him. Her faith in.....an impossible hero.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[ladytenor]

When we first saw the actor playing the Sheriff, we thought that he looked very much like Anthony Ainley, who played the Master in the classic series. If they ever need to do a flashback to classic Who, they could use him to play the Master, instead of using archival footage of Ainley or Roger Delgado.

[tessaray]

 

Unless they edited the script and reshot and edited in all of a week or two, I think this must be a legend.

 

I have seen the work print floating around and it isn't a legend.  It was a very good scene, explaining how the Sheriff came to be half man, half robot.  Maybe it will be on the dvd...

[Llywela]

Unless they edited the script and reshot and edited in all of a week or two, I think this must be a legend.

It isn't a legend. It was widely reported on the news as fact, and there are plenty of people out there who've seen the original version, which leaked - the script wasn't altered, there was no re-shoot, they simply edited a scene out of the final cut.

 

I don't think Clara is A Mary Sue. I tend to think people are too quick to put that label on characters they don't like. Would her actions have worked with you on any of the other companions over the years? (choose your own adventure). The problem isn't Clara. It is the Doctor. She has no idea who he is. All she has is her faith in him. Her faith in.....an impossible hero.

I'm not quick to label a character as Mary Sue - this is the first time, in fact. I am very familiar with what the phrase means and the manifold ways in which it has been misused over the years. I've been in fandom for a very long time. Would her actions have worked with other companions over the years? Well, other companions over the years would have behaved differently, acting and reacting according to their individual personalities and knowledge and abilities. What I object to is not her actions but the specific presentation of Clara as a character, the way the she has been crafted. Which, yes, does come across as verging on Mary-Sue - she is shaped as an ideal, good at everything she does, everyone she meets immediately loves her, she's so perfect even the hero of the story can't compete with her and is always wrong where she is always right. She's practically the definition of a Mary-Sue. I am starting to blame Coleman's acting, though, as well - it may be the way she is directed to play the character, but she does come off as smug. Clara is always right about everything and she knows it. If I try to imagine other characters in some of her scenes in this episode...the actors would have played it differently, and that might have made all the difference. But really, the problem with Clara isn't specific scenes but the cumulative impact of her presentation as a whole.

 

I really, really want to like her. But I don't and I freely admit it. But the reasons I dislike her are valid. I didn't choose to dislike her and then invent reasons why, or come up with excuses for it. I want to like her but the manner in which she is written and presented usually prevents it. There've been a few glimmers of hope - I liked her in Deep Breath, for instance. But this was a poor episode all round for characterisation - it was a parody, so everyone involved was a caricature, even Clara and the Doctor, because the style demanded it for the sake of the comedy, but that simply isn't a style that appeals to me.

 

I feel much the same way about The Myth Makers. I can enjoy the story as a standalone romp, a comedy, but in terms of the presentation of characters as part of an ongoing story it's woeful. Because don't get me wrong, I thought this story was a lot of fun. But if I had to chose between a comedic parody and a meaningful story about people, I'm going to chose the meaningful story about people every time.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Llywela