Season 2 - Feud: Capote vs The Swans

[Maximona]

2 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

Elaine Benes was in my head screaming, 'Just DIE already! Finish telling your stupid story and die!'

I laughed out loud when I read this.  😀

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cameron]

On 3/5/2024 at 10:47 AM, ahpny said:

The old Lord & Taylor building on Fifth Avenue (which is landmarked, of course) became become the New York City headquarters of Amazon. Amazon spend years renovating the space but assumed occupancy a while back. It's hard to think of a more emblematic change in retail commerce than that. Forget those gloves.

I miss their Christmas window display.

On 3/5/2024 at 6:39 AM, Blakeston said:

 

I'd definitely prefer a season of Capote v. Vidal. But this season was heavily marketed as "watch big-name actresses play the queens of New York high society as the gloves come off, and they go to war!" People love that kind of thing.

It says a lot that Tom Hollander has final billing, rather than first, even though he's so clearly the main character.

Actually knew about all of them with the exception of Slim. 

[EtheltoTillie]

18 hours ago, Maximona said:

I'm wondering that, too!!!!! 😀

I think In Cold Blood is a great book.  And I like a lot of Capote's early writing—yeah, Other Voices, Other Rooms is overly sentimental & Gothic, but Miriam is a little gem & Breakfast at Tiffany's is fun.

I don't think anybody except possibly Capote himself thought the published portions of Answered Prayers were any good.  It's not the subject matter:  Proust betrayed the foibles (sexual & otherwise) of his rich friends, and it's considered great art.  La Côte Basque is just really badly written.

I always thought it was showy like Tom Wolfe. Not great writing. 

[Maximona]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

like Tom Wolfe.

In Cold Blood was published in 1965; Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test in 1968.  The individual pieces in Acid Test were published in magazines earlier.  Still, I think it's fair to say Capote influenced Wolfe not vice versa.

Of course, if you don't like what was then called the New Journalism—i.e. the introduction of the author's persona into the subject he/she is writing about—you don't like the New Journalism.  It does come down to a matter of individual taste.

[EtheltoTillie]

2 minutes ago, Maximona said:

In Cold Blood was published in 1965; Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test in 1968.  The individual pieces in Acid Test were published in magazines earlier.  Still, I think it's fair to say Capote influenced Wolfe not vice versa.

Of course, if you don't like what was then called the New Journalism—i.e. the introduction of the author's persona into the subject he/she is writing about—you don't like the New Journalism.  It does come down to a matter of individual taste.

I like the idea of New Journalism. I’m thinking more of the language. For some reason the excerpts of Answered Prayers remind me of Wolfe, rather than Capote’s own earlier writing. . 

[Maximona]

3 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I’m thinking more of the language.

Oh, I see what you mean.  Yeah.  It was a big departure from his earlier style, for sure.

[DanielleBowden]

The real Babe never talked to Truman again.  I'm not convinced her deathbed thoughts were of him considering the relationship with some/all of her own children was complicated to say the least.  Just thinking she might have been more haunted by her daughter refusing to see her then a friend who sold her out without remorse. Loved the swan in the tub though.

[Jordan Baker]

I seem to be in the minority in that I didn't hate this episode. In fact, I was happy that much of the show was about Babe (and, to a lesser extent, the other swans). I think Naomi Watts did some fine acting here. 

Everything I knew about Capote and the Swans before watching this show came from reading The Swans of Fifth Avenue.  Babe (as I recall) was portrayed as a woman for whom style was paramount and for whom perfection was always the goal. In that book, we're told that Babe got out of bed early every morning so that she could put on a full face of makeup before Bill saw her. (This is reminiscent in the show of Babe's putting on make-up and dressing flawlessly to go to her chemo/radiation appointment.)  In the book, we're told that her children lived elsewhere because Babe didn't want to bother Bill with having those pesky children around. I don't know how accurate the book is, but it does seem to track with the events in the show.

I find the story fascinating, even if the show could have been tightened up. The moment that stood out for me in this episode was the scene at Babe's wake/memorial where Slim, Lee, and C.Z. were trying to figure out when they would meet for lunch. Oh, and Bill surrounded by four or five younger women. I have no idea whether any of this was accurate, but it certainly didn't paint any of these people in a good light. (The exception was her maid, who seemed genuinely distraught.)

I've been listening to the Done & Dunne podcast, which has some reviews of the first few episodes and (more interesting to me) information about Capote and the Swans (among others). There's at least one episode devoted to Babe Paley. It might be of interest to those who want to learn more about these characters.

[MaryMitch]

Well, I am enjoying this series.

[12catcrazy]

On 3/7/2024 at 2:34 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

It seems like the granddaughter is mostly complaining that the show 1) portrayed Babe as a bad mother, and 2) as still smoking after her lung cancer diagnosis. I can accept that the second was not true, and it does make her grandmother look kind of dumb if the show doesn't also doesn't portray her as at least trying to quit.

As for the first, you can be a terrific grandmother and a terrible mother...

I haven't been able to read the Belle Burden NY Times piece (it's always behind a fire wall), but a few nights ago I WAS able to read a 1990 article about Babe from Vanity Fair magazine, and according to that article she wasn't the best mother as most of her efforts were focused on Bill Paley and his expectations of her.  Even her children with him took 2nd place (and from the article, they were much more troubled than the kids both she and Bill had from their first marriages).  The article was a long read but enlightening to the life that Babe had. 

And I guess I'll go slink off to the bad table near the kitchen as I'm still enjoying this show for all of the craziness.  I'm viewing it as a work of gonzo fiction inspired by Truman Capote and his NY High Society friends.  This past episode didn't have the laughs the previous episode did (my God, the line Truman said about Herb Ross made me almost choke on my glass of wine), but I thought it to be poetic and beautiful in it's strange way.   I'm going to really miss this show when it's over.  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

59 minutes ago, 12catcrazy said:

I haven't been able to read the Belle Burden NY Times piece (it's always behind a fire wall)

Free copy: The Babe Paley in ‘Feud’ Is Not the Woman I Knew:  https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/06/opinion/feud-swans-paley.html?unlocked_article_code=1.a00.zE6O.vfowdhUdiCGl&smid=nytcore-android-share

Edited March 10 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Quilt Fairy]

On 3/8/2024 at 4:44 PM, MaryMitch said:

Well, I am enjoying this series.

You're allowed to, and I don't think you're alone.  I certainly don't tune in to hate-watch.  I've just found it extremely disappointing.

22 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

made me almost choke on my glass of wine

Maybe that's the missing element, I need to be drinking when I watch.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Maybe that's the missing element, I need to be drinking when I watch.

I feel like I'm at risk for lung cancer, just watching all the smoking.

Quote

And I guess I'll go slink off to the bad table near the kitchen as I'm still enjoying this show for all of the craziness.  I'm viewing it as a work of gonzo fiction inspired by Truman Capote and his NY High Society friends. 

I enjoy it. I definitely think it could have been shorter and I would have liked to have seen how the friendships developed more, but honestly - I just love the fashion. I could watch the entire thing with no volume and enjoy it. 

[Tim McD]

On 3/7/2024 at 5:49 PM, Cheezwiz said:

What are they doing in Episode 8 now that our two main subjects are deceased?

Truman Capote will be put on trial in hell, with a jury of people even worse than he was, like that Simpsons Halloween episode from years back.

[TakomaSnark]

Well, I just watched the finale.

I've seen a lot of television in my life. A lot of good television and a heckuva lot of bad.

And this one? This is a Mount Rushmore of absolute pointless, time-killing, self-indulgent garbage television.

 

[Starchild]

I appreciate a well-placed fantasy sequence now and then, but this show overindulged.

[txhorns79]

All I can say is I want whatever potion Kate Harrington drank.  She apparently hadn't aged a day from when we saw her in the late-1970s to when she was bidding in that auction in 2016.  

Also, kudos to Jack for landing a guy who was easily half his age.     

The rest was a big shrug.  I don't need to see Truman mooning over Babe's grave, or creating a fantasy for himself where the swans mostly forgive him.  All that tells me is the writers ran out of material, and are ending the series with what is essentially a filler episode.  It's so strange to me the show assembled all this talent and aside from Tom Hollander, gave them so little to do.  

[buttersister]

18 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

whatever potion Kate Harrington drank

The one that equated plain with old.

[voiceover]

Well.  It’s done.

Starting with what I liked:

Appreciated Jack’s and Joanne’s compassion for Truman.  No matter how misplaced, it was a breather to watch a couple of people support the fucking main character!  (I wrote “the hero” first, and then thought: Nah)

LoveloveLOVED that plate-flinging scene with Truman and Slim.  Felt genuine and true, even though it was — at the very least — not the latter.  

Nice moment with CZ & Truman, selling her portrait for whiskies from the appreciative bartender.  Not for the first time, it made me wish for a personal angle on the Swans.  I want to know why CZ, of all of them, was the one who let him back in.

The rest?  Disappointing.  Extremely.  And kinda dull.

This wasn’t a hate-watch for me.  I don’t really do those (though I’ll probably tune in to the rest of Delicate  just to shake my head & wonder why I couldn’t have gotten into Shogun).  It was more of a hopeful-watch.  And I will say, this series had some moments.  Just too many missed opportunities.  Much like the writer himself, I mourn the What Might Have Been.

But if that was the creators’ intent: fuck ‘em.  
 

 

[txhorns79]

7 minutes ago, voiceover said:

I want to know why CZ, of all of them, was the one who let him back in.

I think someone had mentioned that she (or her pseudonym) was barely mentioned in the Esquire story, so she stayed friends with Capote. 

[Spartan Girl]

They seriously tried to rip off Atonement and it failed, not just for the reasons everybody else already said, but also because I still don’t think Truman was really sorry for how he hurt people. Ghost Ann spelled it out for him: he should have just burned the manuscript a long time ago, and even I didn’t believe that scene was real because we all know he was still working on it when he died. And even if it was real, it was too little too late.

Who bought Truman’s ashes? That was so morbid that they were auctioned off like that.

I don’t know if we’re getting another Feud, but next time choose one with some actual meat and cut back on the fantasy A/Us.

[Enigma X]

With all the made-up fantasy sequences in this show, I thought I was watching a spinoff of Fantasy Island—not a very good spinoff, at that.

[nora1992]

Apologies are done for the benefit of the person making the apology?  
My definitions and worldviews are obviously out of sync with….everything, apparently.

[MissAlmond]

9 hours ago, voiceover said:

I want to know why CZ, of all of them, was the one who let him back in.

Because C.Z. Guest understood some things were better left unsaid when talking with Truman Capote. 

[tennisgurl]

You have to love a season finale that is 90% dream sequence. There was a lot about this episode and this season that I liked, but I left the season wishing that we had some more substance over style. The style was wonderful, I adored the clothes and the vibes were immaculate, but I so wanted to know more about these characters, we just barley scratched the surface here. I know we've all said it over and over, but this would all mean so much more if we actually knew these people and their relationships, I would be so much more moved by this bittersweet ending if I had actually had time to care about these relationships. 

Of course we cant get through this season without one more episode featuring Jessica Lange doing her one woman Tennessee Williams play, and as predictable as all this is, I wish we gotten more of Truman's life before the Swans, it would have given more context as to why he became the way he did, and even explain more about why he betrayed the Swans if they wanted to make it more complicated than money. A lot of this shows characterization has been basically carried by the great performances, I just wish that the writing had done more heavy lifting. 

Good on Jack for not only aging well but finding a hottie at least half his age, he deserves it. 

I think that the Betty VS Joan season was more fun but less historically accurate, while this season was a bit more accurate but less entertaining. I was really expecting a lot more bitchtastic cattyness but a lot of this season just felt slow. 

So do we know who ended up getting Truman's ashes? Its all very ghoulish but I think the auctioneer had it right when he said that Truman would have eaten that drama up. 

[TakomaSnark]

From Screen Rant:

Quote

 

While living with Joanne, he wrote constantly, but when Joanne looked into his notebooks after his death, she discovered he’d just been writing gibberish.

Truman had simply written the same phrase over and over again: “A dream, a dream, a dream, a dream that’s as real as stubbing your toe.”

 

No TV and no beer make Truman something something.

[Quilt Fairy]

I don't know the truth of it, but the implication of both Capote and Infamous is that researching and writing In Cold Blood - in particular his relationship with Perry Smith - left him a broken man. 

[Carolina Girl]

On 3/5/2024 at 7:30 AM, sugarbaker design said:

Some of us remember when the Esquire excerpt came out and followed every NY gossip columnist with theories about who was whom.

I certainly do, and I was on the WEST Coast.  I was in my very early 20's when this hubbub happened.  And we did know at the time who these women were - at least Babe Paley, Slim Keith, C.Z. Guest and Lee Radziwill.  By this time, though, Anne Woodward was pretty much a footnote, since it had been over a decade since the incident on Long Island.  

[12catcrazy]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

 

So do we know who ended up getting Truman's ashes? Its all very ghoulish but I think the auctioneer had it right when he said that Truman would have eaten that drama up. 

I haven't watched the finale yet so can't comment on that, but I think that at least some of Truman's ashes were scattered with Jack's at some property that they left to the Nature Conservancy in The Hamptons.   I also read somewhere that Joanne Carson claimed to have some of Truman's ashes but that has been disputed.  

[Pi237]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The style was wonderful, I adored the clothes and the vibes were immaculate, but I so wanted to know more about these characters, we just barley scratched the surface here. 

How can you take a gossipy story about a handful of rich women with power and skeletons in their closets, and a brilliant writer who had a biting wit and make a total snooze fest?  This was so over indulgent and boring. 

Agree about Jessica Lange. Did we need to be hit over the head with a mallet repeatedly that she was the source of Truman's insecurities, and his knack for shining diaogue?

I want to be cremated, but I don't want my ashes doled out to lots of people!. Not that I expect to regenerate lol just don't want to end up in a dusty baggy forgotten about in the back of Someone's sock drawer lol

 

[txhorns79]

39 minutes ago, Pi237 said:

How can you take a gossipy story about a handful of rich women with power and skeletons in their closets, and a brilliant writer who had a biting wit and make a total snooze fest? 

It felt like there were no stakes.  Sure, Babe, Lee and Slim cut Truman off.  Aside from being disinvited to CZ's fancy Thanksgiving party, Truman's life didn't appear to change much.  We didn't see him being barred from any society functions outside of events hosted by those women, he kept on dining at the La Cote Basque and while his alcoholism and whatever else, became worse, that didn't necessarily seem connected to being shunned.  

[Madding crowd]

The parts with little Truman and his mother were sad but most of the rest were fantasy sequences and a way to feature the actresses one more time. It was good that Truman had Joanne Carson to live with but she came across as flaky and enabling of his drinking. I assume the scenes of plate throwing with Slim and dancing on a bar with CZ were made up. It was sad and tacky seeing his ashes up for auction.

I liked seeing the ghosts of the swans at the end but their comments about flip flops was just annoying. Fashions change and wealthy women were and are the only ones who have the means to buy new wardrobes every year, have celebrity designers and stylists at their fingertips. So yes people from any generation would find the clothing choices of a different generation not to their taste-it didn’t say anything profound about the swans. 

[luckyroll3]

On 3/7/2024 at 6:49 PM, Cheezwiz said:

What are they doing in Episode 8 now that our two main subjects are deceased? The show definitely could have been done in 5-6 episodes.

 

On 3/7/2024 at 8:22 PM, Snazzy Daisy said:

What’s left to tell in the finale after the death of its 2 main characters?

 

On 3/8/2024 at 12:53 AM, iMonrey said:

This should have been the last episode. Hell, the show should have ended after about four episodes.

I thought episode 5 was the final episode. So I am consistently shocked when I open Hulu and there's ANOTHER fucking episode. Especially when he (and Babe) died in 7 and all of a sudden 8 auto-started! WTF! 

This season was 7 episodes too long.....

[Elizzikra]

 

Quote

Agree about Jessica Lange. Did we need to be hit over the head with a mallet repeatedly that she was the source of Truman's insecurities, and his knack for shining diaogue?

And that he was attempting to re-live and improve upon the relationship he had with his mother through his relationships with the swans? 

Quote

I don't know the truth of it, but the implication of both Capote and Infamous is that researching and writing In Cold Blood - in particular his relationship with Perry Smith - left him a broken man. 

Didn't he attend the execution? Which was by hanging? I can see where that would leave anyone broken...

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I liked seeing the ghosts of the swans at the end but their comments about flip flops was just annoying. Fashions change and wealthy women were and are the only ones who have the means to buy new wardrobes every year, have celebrity designers and stylists at their fingertips. So yes people from any generation would find the clothing choices of a different generation not to their taste-it didn’t say anything profound about the swans. 

That last moment wound up having what I think was the opposite effect than intended on me. Made it seem like they still considered themselves way more relevent and valuable than they were. 

Quote

Didn't he attend the execution? Which was by hanging? I can see where that would leave anyone broken...

Yes, he was at the hanging.

[Snazzy Daisy]

S02•E08 - Phantasm Forgiveness

We don’t really need this episode to understand the toxicity between Truman and his mother, Lillie Mae.

This is how I truly feel about the S02 finale...

 

[Blakeston]

7 hours ago, Pi237 said:

How can you take a gossipy story about a handful of rich women with power and skeletons in their closets, and a brilliant writer who had a biting wit and make a total snooze fest? 

That really is one of the biggest disappointments, for me. If you're going to make an entire season of television about Truman Capote, you need writers with a knack for witty dialogue. We heard Capote say almost nothing over the course of the season that was actually funny.

I get that the swans in real life weren't necessarily the sharpest wits out there, but the writers should have had some fun with their cattiness. And surely an episode with James Baldwin should have had some terrific dialogue! (I know Baldwin was just a fever dream of Capote's, but a fever dream of Capote's should still have some sparkling repartee.)

Also, this is a small quibble, but...why would Lee's ghost be present at a 2016 auction, when she was still alive?

[Elizzikra]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

 

Also, this is a small quibble, but...why would Lee's ghost be present at a 2016 auction, when she was still alive?

Maybe that’s why she was in silver rather than pure white…

[ItCouldBeWorse]

5 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

And that he was attempting to re-live and improve upon the relationship he had with his mother through his relationships with the swans? 

There's a theory that he betrayed them to get revenge at the sort of people who had rejected his mother's attempts to join high society.

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Also, this is a small quibble, but...why would Lee's ghost be present at a 2016 auction, when she was still alive?

Good question.  Also, Lee didn't marry Herbert Ross (the "gay" director) until 1988, 4 years after Truman died.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Here's the article that started it all:  https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/a40376194/truman-capote-la-cote-basque/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=arb_ga_esq_md_pmx_hybd_mix_us_18717285305&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwwMqvBhCtARIsAIXsZpbGL82f4Q8kgxEkKPz8OYa3rw-QYHRNIddOVojSGKulD3d5KbCnLfAaAk_0EALw_wcB

Edited March 15 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Shelbie]

I found a lot of it quite boring. I fast forwarded through most of the scenes with Jessica Lange because it just seemed pointless and self indulgent at that point. I had been looking forward to the show but in the end found it meh.

[carrps]

14 hours ago, Blakeston said:

That really is one of the biggest disappointments, for me. If you're going to make an entire season of television about Truman Capote, you need writers with a knack for witty dialogue. We heard Capote say almost nothing over the course of the season that was actually funny.

This is exactly what I was saying to myself last night. Nowhere did they show why the swans or their swains would want to have Truman around at all. He seemed like the obnoxious bore at most of the parties/dinners they showed.

This episode's Jessica Lange sequence was especially egregious and boring.

 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 3/15/2024 at 12:40 PM, carrps said:

Nowhere did they show why the swans or their swains would want to have Truman around at all.

He at least listened/paid attention to the wives when their husbands wouldn't.  And this allowed the husbands to ignore them even more. So both wives and husbands got something out of having him around.

And the women were subtly competitive with each other so could never confide everything. But they thought they could with Capote.

Edited March 17 by ItCouldBeWorse

[nora1992]

19 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Here's the article that started it all:  https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/a40376194/truman-capote-la-cote-basque/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=arb_ga_esq_md_pmx_hybd_mix_us_18717285305&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwwMqvBhCtARIsAIXsZpbGL82f4Q8kgxEkKPz8OYa3rw-QYHRNIddOVojSGKulD3d5KbCnLfAaAk_0EALw_wcB

Thanks for posting this.  I hadn’t read it before.  There’s an awkwardness to the writing compared to his previous works.  Maybe the whole Swan fallout distracted some people from talking about the lack of quality in this piece.  It reads like bad pulp fiction.  Capote wrote some impactful and beautiful prose; this is not good.

[voiceover]

On 3/14/2024 at 9:38 AM, tennisgurl said:

featuring Jessica Lange doing her one-woman Tennessee Williams play

Okay this is funny AF and worthy of being repeated.

Great minds, etc — I respect Jessica, but she was Blanche-ing all over that scene.

[MissAlmond]

On 3/14/2024 at 9:22 PM, Blakeston said:

We heard Capote say almost nothing over the course of the season that was actually funny.

Well, IRL was Capote actually witty/funny or was he simply catty about others and the swans loved it? That is, until the leopards came to eat their faces. 

[ahpny]

On 3/14/2024 at 10:15 AM, MissAlmond said:

On 3/14/2024 at 12:35 AM, voiceover said:

I want to know why CZ, of all of them, was the one who let him back in.

Because C.Z. Guest understood some things were better left unsaid when talking with Truman Capote. 

Maybe, but more likely because CZ was either left out of the infamous Capote writing, or portrayed more generously than the other Swans 

[MissAlmond]

1 hour ago, ahpny said:

Maybe, but more likely because CZ was either left out of the infamous Capote writing, or portrayed more generously than the other Swans 

She was left out because - as C.Z. herself said - she never revealed everything about her private life. Which is indeed an understanding that when it came to talking with Truman Capote, Some things were better left unsaid. 

Edited March 16 by MissAlmond

[MerBearHou]

I can’t remember when I’ve ever regretted watching a limited series more.  Both from disappointment on what I’d hoped would be an interesting, entertaining glimpse into these unique lives and from actually feeling creeped out by spending hours with these people, most of all Truman.  

[ljenkins782]

On 3/14/2024 at 3:00 PM, Pi237 said:

How can you take a gossipy story about a handful of rich women with power and skeletons in their closets, and a brilliant writer who had a biting wit and make a total snooze fest?  This was so over indulgent and boring. 

Agree about Jessica Lange. Did we need to be hit over the head with a mallet repeatedly that she was the source of Truman's insecurities, and his knack for shining diaogue?

Right?? I was so excited when I saw the previews for this, I loved reading the The Swans of 5th Avenue, but this missed the mark in a million ways. 

I think a more linear storytelling pattern would have helped it (and FAR few fantasy montages). I would have liked more buildup to the big rift and more scenes of the good times beforehand. 

Even if they had elected to stick with the style of showing the before times via flashbacks, it would have been a lot easier to follow without umpteen fantasy sequences making it hard to discern what was what. 

Jessica Lange emoting to the back row was also overdone. A scene or 2 would have done the trick to show the mommy issues, it felt like they'd contracted with her for Bette & Joan and had to find a way to shoehorn her into every episode here too. 

Quote

Quote

 

It seems like the granddaughter is mostly complaining that the show 1) portrayed Babe as a bad mother, and 2) as still smoking after her lung cancer diagnosis. I can accept that the second was not true, and it does make her grandmother look kind of dumb if the show doesn't also doesn't portray her as at least trying to quit.

As for the first, you can be a terrific grandmother and a terrible mother...

 

I haven't been able to read the Belle Burden NY Times piece (it's always behind a fire wall), but a few nights ago I WAS able to read a 1990 article about Babe from Vanity Fair magazine, and according to that article she wasn't the best mother as most of her efforts were focused on Bill Paley and his expectations of her.  Even her children with him took 2nd place (and from the article, they were much more troubled than the kids both she and Bill had from their first marriages).  The article was a long read but enlightening to the life that Babe had. 

 

Yes, the experience of a grandchild can be worlds apart from the experience of a son or daughter. 

But Babe wouldn't even necessarily have been considered a bad mother by the standard of the time and the social circle she lived in. Coldness toward the children or a demand for perfection was fairly standard, Jackie O has been accused of some of those things as well.

And the way the book described her with her routine of putting on an entirely fresh face of makeup for when Bill came home from work and this carefully crafted facade, it's hard to see where the mothering side would fit in.