S01.E08: The Lord of the Tides

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

It seems to me that Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was not taking a blonde lover.

If her eldest 3 had had blonde hair, like both 'parents', it would have been a lot harder to refute their legitimacy. 

Yes, a lot of people are probably thinking, couldn't she work with us a little here? Meet us halfway? Did it have to be somebody with BLACK hair?

Otoh, she's probably wondering why the gods saw fit to give Alicent's children her hair when Alicent isn't blonde. It's like they really wanted to make everything messy for their own amusement.

[Scaeva]

That scene where Viserys' makes his long walk to the throne is going to be talked about in years to come as one of the best scenes of this series.

The moving  speech by Viserys at the dinner, even though we all know it will ultimately achieve nothing, no doubt cemented the character in being a fan favorite for many.

What a marvelous performance by Paddy Considine. In a series packed with talented performers he's really been the stand out this season, and should be a guaranteed emmy nomination.

It's been a few years since I've watched Game of Thrones but my admittedly flawed impressions, relying on distant & fallible memory, is that aside from that great big twist at the end of S1 of Game of Thrones , S1 of House of the Dragon is so far the stronger of the two.

[LadyChaos]

12 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

Upon rewatch of GOT after knowing the ending, the signs were all there. They just did a horrible job of relating that story. Too rushed.

The signs were there from the off....but s7-8 were just so badly executed.

[RobertDeSneero]

On 10/10/2022 at 1:42 PM, proserpina65 said:

These people need to find new names.  Aegon, Aemond, Daemon, Rhaenys, Rhaena, Rhaenyra, STOP IT.  At least Jace and Luc are different.

I remember when GoT renamed the character Asha Greyjoy as Yara because they thought viewers would be confused because the show already had an Osha.  Book readers were mad that fans were basically being called stupid.

Were the showrunners actually right?

Edited October 12, 2022 by RobertDeSneero

[ZeeEnnui]

11 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Does she though? She may be disabled in some way but that doesn't mean she couldn't have a happy marriage with someone. She got trapped with a rapist ass. 

In some ways she was a very fortunate child/teen. Her family interacted with her, she had stimulation being in the castle (she didn't appear to be locked away). She was at all family events. I suspect Aemond would have been much kinder. 

I really do hope the Aemond actor will have more nuance moving forward. He seemed a bit too mustache twirling villain in this ep. Although he does have charisma. Although getting an eye-patch and awesome scar help.

I don't think she's disabled at all. A couple of posters compared her to Luna Lovegood, and I can see it. Helaena seems to have the gift of precognition. Viserys also has an affinity for dreams as well, but he functioned like a normal person whereas Helaena seems to live in her own world. But she's definitely not riding the short dragon to school. If I was a member of that family, I'd definitely disassociate too. 

Does losing an eye cause rapid aging, because Aemond looked about 30 while new Aegon looks like he's just about ready to start working on his college application essays.

Was anyone else humming "Music of the Night" when Viserys put on his Phantom mask? Just me then. I'll be sitting at the kids table in the Red Keep.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Does he?  I've seen no real examples of that.

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As for his respect and concern for the small folks - does his "cleasing" in the beginning of the show prove that?

I believe Cambrigeguy is referencing how Daemon said that he did that cleansing because he believes all the people of King's Landing deserve to feel safe. Also, he shows at least some respect for Mysaria, who is a commoner.

15 minutes ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Does losing an eye cause rapid aging, because Aemond looked about 30 while new Aegon looks like he's just about ready to start working on his college application essays.

Funnily enough Tom Glynn-Carney (Aegon) is 27 and Ewan Mitchell (Aemond) is 20.

[Twilight Man]

Let's Do The Time Jump Again!!!!!

So, what exactly was the disease that afflicted Viserys???

(It was leprosy)

and what exactly is "milk of the poppy"???

(It's a ancient form of morphine, and it has been mentioned on the previous show)

[Scarlett45]

26 minutes ago, ZeeEnnui said:

I don't think she's disabled at all. A couple of posters compared her to Luna Lovegood, and I can see it. Helaena seems to have the gift of precognition. Viserys also has an affinity for dreams as well, but he functioned like a normal person whereas Helaena seems to live in her own world. But she's definitely not riding the short dragon to school. If I was a member of that family, I'd definitely disassociate too. 

Does losing an eye cause rapid aging, because Aemond looked about 30 while new Aegon looks like he's just about ready to start working on his college application essays.

Was anyone else humming "Music of the Night" when Viserys put on his Phantom mask? Just me then. I'll be sitting at the kids table in the Red Keep.

I got the impression that Heleana isn’t cognitively disabled but she’s likely not neurotypical. Add in the gift of premonition, I could see a lot of people thinking she was “odd” but I don’t think she’s portrayed as disabled. 

[Scaeva]

I have not read the book(s) this particular series is based on (though I suppose in this thread, that works), but with that uninformed perspective I get the impression that maybe Heleana is supposed to be autistic, or at least somewhere on that spectrum.

[magdalene]

They said in some behind the scenes thing that the crown falling off Viserys head wasn't scripted but an accident and Matt Smith went with it, improvised and put the crown back on Viserys head.

[ursula]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

If Aemond is still alive, he would not hesitate to be a kingslayer. After all, he will have a 20 year pig grudge by then...

Aemond holds the Strong boys responsible for his bullying, not his brother.

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I got the impression that Heleana isn’t cognitively disabled but she’s likely not neurotypical. Add in the gift of premonition, I could see a lot of people thinking she was “odd” but I don’t think she’s portrayed as disabled. 

I used the wrong term. Not neurotypical is probably a better way to describe her.

I love she gets to make a creepy pronouncement each show and nobody is listening.  Maybe Aemond. Maybe.

[jeansheridan]

4 hours ago, Scaeva said:

What a marvelous performance by Paddy Considine. In a series packed with talented performers he's really been the stand out this season, and should be a guaranteed emmy nomination.

He is new to me as a performer but yes. He played so many notes. I think Rhys (Otto) matches him but hasn't had enough scenes. Eve Best is also wonderfully subtle. Emma has grown on me as Rhynaera but the writing seems lacking. When they give her something to do, she delivers. That long walk after giving birth was glorious. 

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

It seems to me that Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was not taking a blonde lover.

If they can have "tea" to prevent pregnancy, they could have also known a method to become pregnant without intercourse (a "mug method").

Or there could have been threesome, so it could vowed by Laenor and Rhaenyra that they both lay in the marriage bed when the children were begotten. 

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, MrsR said:

From George's blog today, ' Do I wish we’d had more time to explore the relationship between Rhaenyra and Ser Harwin, the marriage of Daemon and Laena and their time in Pentos, the birth of various and sundry children (and YES, Alicent gave Viserys four children, three sons and a daughter, their youngest son Daeron is down in Oldtown, we just did not have the time to work him in this season), and everything else we had to skip?   Sure.'

Like I said, 'author's message.'

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

You can cherry pick his statements all day, doesn't change any of his previous statements in regard to certain events

Just pointed out on tick tock but for Baela fans, check out her having to be held back by her sister in the scene below

Spoiler

Edited October 12, 2022 by Oscirus

[dramachick]

5 hours ago, Scaeva said:

That scene where Viserys' makes his long walk to the throne is going to be talked about in years to come as one of the best scenes of this series.

The moving  speech by Viserys at the dinner, even though we all know it will ultimately achieve nothing, no doubt cemented the character in being a fan favorite for many.

What a marvelous performance by Paddy Considine. In a series packed with talented performers he's really been the stand out this season, and should be a guaranteed emmy nomination.

It's been a few years since I've watched Game of Thrones but my admittedly flawed impressions, relying on distant & fallible memory, is that aside from that great big twist at the end of S1 of Game of Thrones , S1 of House of the Dragon is so far the stronger of the two.

Paddy Considine has been fabulous! He is a great actor. The first time I saw him on screen was in Red Riding: The Year of Our Lord 1980, which is the second film in the Red Riding Trilogy.

If you like dark, gritty crime dramas you should watch the trilogy. It also stars Andrew Garfield, Sean Bean, Mark Addy, David Morrissey, etc. You can probably check out the DVDs from the public library if you don't want to pay for streaming.

[cambridgeguy]

17 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Viserys was very sick, but Rhaenrya didn’t know he was going to die that night. She said she planned to come back on her dragon to spend time with her father. But given that she’s pregnant, anything could happen to keep her at home. Which again, wouldn’t be such a big deal if she hadn’t spent 6yrs never even visiting much less making her a political presence known. 

It does raise the question of what Rhaenyra and Daemon have been doing for the past six years,  Chilling on Dragonstone reading scrolls?  Yes, she's had kids, but she shouldn't have spent all that time in bed.  Daemon can only spend so much time spelunking into caves for dragon eggs.

One thing we missed out thanks to the time jump is Viserys's reaction to Rhaenyra and Daemon's wedding.  It's possible he was so pissed off in the moment he insisted they stayed away, and by the time he cooled off he was bedridden and in too much of a milk of the poppy haze to ask them to visit.

[Pestilentia]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I give Alicent credit--she didn't have to tell the girl she believed her, and she might have been one of those mothers who would just refuse to believe anything bad about her son. In some ways she's very realistic.  She didn't get anything herself out of being nice to the girl or giving her money.

We only saw her most recent reaction- Alicent has had a lot of practice and has likely reacted each of ten different ways before she found the method that remedied the situation most expeditiously. That she settled on "kindness and cash" was a pragmatic decision and in no way mitigated her enabling of her son's behavior.    
 

Quote

I remember when GoT renamed the character Asha Greyjoy as Yara because they thought viewers would be confused because the show already had an Osha.  Book readers were mad that fans were basically being called stupid.

Were the showrunners actually right?

It's no secret that the mediums differ extensively, the main difference being book readers get to SEE the names written every time we read about their exploits- the differences in spelling are right there in front of you over and over and over.
Television viewers do not see that advantage. We hear a name in passing- likely garbled or accented and have difficulty following who it is. That does not make us stupid, that makes the medium different and thus necessitating different methods. Making names more easily distinguishable should be part of that process.

I well and truly resent having to keep an open page on my phone with "House of Dragons Cast" photos open so I can SEE their names written and follow just to watch a damn TV show.
It's just TV, it's a passive activity and me having to work to watch it seems a bit much. Sure, it all comes together on the rewatch, which is half why the damn shows are so successful anyway- we all have to watch each episdoe three times to get things straight enough to absorb all the nuance. We're tired, we're in our jammies, it's late, and we worked all day already, and it shouldn't have to be this much work, lol. Nine tenths of why I come here is to find out what I just watched, what happened when I blinked, what's going on as I dozed off.  And just don't with "Not their responsibility that you can't pay attention," or that viewers are stupid.

My husband doesn't read any forums etc. and he is not a stupid man but I promise you he has no idea of half what he is watching here with the names, time jumps, 15 different children, etc. And that's fine if that's how you want your TV show received. But one would think a faster emotional connection with the characters would strengthen one's attachment to the show and be the desired reaction. And to that end one might even think the showrunners to be "stupid" if they did not even understand the differences between the mediums of book and television and take the steps necessary to bridge those differences.

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

It's no secret that the mediums differ extensively, the main difference being book readers get to SEE the names written every time we read about their exploits- the differences in spelling are right there in front of you over and over and over.

HBO should have hired Burn Notice writers...

[Haleth]

Ah, the family dinner. Who hasn’t had a tense holiday dinner like that?

At least everyone survived. Unlike what happens at weddings. 

Why does Aemond look at least 10 years older than his older brother and cousins?

There was some superb acting from the cast this episode.  Paddy C was fantastic. I love that the falling crown was an unscripted mistake that they decided to keep. So much said with actions but no words. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Haleth

[jeansheridan]

8 hours ago, dramachick said:

the trilogy. It also stars Andrew Garfield, Sean Bean, Mark Addy, David Morrissey, etc

Hah. The one and done crew. I suspect Mark Addy and Sean Bean loved starting an epic show but not having to do it for a decade!  Thanks for the recommendation.  

I decided to watch the first ep again and Paddy is brimming with health and energy. Corlys, Rhyners and Daemon honestly look the same from ep 1 to ep 7. Matt isn't as good playing different ages but maybe there's a reason. It doesn't bother me much other than it shows Vicerys' rapid decay. 

[AntFTW]

I'm a little rusty on my Westerosi family and inheritance law, but Vaemond said that he would inherit Driftmark if Corlys had no heirs, since Jace and Luke are "allegedly" illegitimate. Wouldn't Laena be the next heir after her brother and his children? If so, wouldn't that make Baela and Rhaena heirs before Vaemond?

I understand the male primogeniture of inheritance but do they skip over the girls entirely?

[Tachi Rocinante]

15 hours ago, Scaeva said:

That scene where Viserys' makes his long walk to the throne is going to be talked about in years to come as one of the best scenes of this series.

The moving  speech by Viserys at the dinner, even though we all know it will ultimately achieve nothing, no doubt cemented the character in being a fan favorite for many.

What a marvelous performance by Paddy Considine. In a series packed with talented performers he's really been the standout this season, and should be a guaranteed Emmy nomination.

Agree 100%. 

Although I can't stop pronouncing his name as "Viss-err-iss". 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

I'm a little rusty on my Westerosi family and inheritance law, but Vaemond said that he would inherit Driftmark if Corlys had no heirs, since Jace and Luke are "allegedly" illegitimate. Wouldn't Laena be the next heir after her brother and his children? If so, wouldn't that make Baela and Rhaena heirs before Vaemond?

In theory, that's correct. By default a lord's daughter, and by extension her children, is supposed to come before said lord's younger brother if said lord has no sons or other living descendants in the direct male line. In practice, the arbitration of these things has been somewhat messy and inconsistent and there are historical examples of daughters or descendants of daughters being passed over. 

Vaemond seems to have been banking on one or all of the following: Laena herself died before Corlys, her daughters have the Targaryen name, the Hightower-Targaryen political faction would like his support, an adult male military commander looks like a more stable prospect than a teenage girl, possible appeal to internal Valyrian/Velaryon/non-Westerosi tradition, etc.

Plus, Baela and Rhaena are close to people whom he's not enamoured of.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Stardancer Supreme]

One thing; Vaemond was a second son.  It appeared that he had no heirs of his own. Corlys definitely didn't consider him in the succession for Driftmark. The other thing was that Vaemond had little to no backup in his petition. When he comes into King's Landing, there are no other Velaryons with him. He is alone with the only other Velaryons by blood being Daemon's daughters, who are aligned with Rhaenyra and Rhaenys.

He was hoping for Otto and Alicent to just give him Driftmark on a platter and was a goner as soon as Viserys showed up.

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

The signs were there from the off....but s7-8 were just so badly executed.

As I said, I don't think seasons 7 & 8 were badly executed, just a bit rushed.  But I know I'm in the minority (of fans who post about it on the internet, which isn't necessarily the same thing as the majority of all GOT fans) and since that's not actually about House of the Dragon, I'll leave it there.

13 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

I don't think she's disabled at all. A couple of posters compared her to Luna Lovegood, and I can see it. Helaena seems to have the gift of precognition. Viserys also has an affinity for dreams as well, but he functioned like a normal person whereas Helaena seems to live in her own world. But she's definitely not riding the short dragon to school. If I was a member of that family, I'd definitely disassociate too. 

She's more than a bit wifty otherwise, too.  Maybe not short dragon material, but not quite right either.  Someone used the word 'fey' and I think that's a good one for her.

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Without a civil war, aemond would likely be maegor part 2. An entirely different kind of horror

Yes, very possibly.  Not a lot of good options there.

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Why does Aemond look at least 10 years older than his older brother and cousins?

He is significantly older than his cousins, isn't he?  Weren't Alicent's children all born well before Rhaenyra even got married?  And sometimes people just look older than they are.  Plus, he probably plays it up because it makes him look more dangerous.

[CountryGirl]

Viserys having his one last act as king was perfectly played. That long walk to the throne.

His support of Rhaenyra. Just beautiful and heart-breaking to watch.

Give Paddy the Emmy please.

I liked seeing the moments with Daemon and Viserys, seeing that despite all of the distance between them, they still care for one another as brothers.

I love knowing Matt improvised the crown moment. I will miss their interactions greatly.

Vaemond going scorched earth by calling out Rhaenyra's three eldest sons as bastards was so foolish and although I gasped, I shouldn't have been surprised that Daemon ended him. At least he got to keep his tongue.

I'm going to go against the grain about any warm feelings towards Alicent. She is very well aware that her eldest son is a rapist, who rapes his own sister-wife FFS, so her gaving a crumb of pity to his latest victim (serving girl) didn't impress me in the slightest. Especially when it was accompanied with a side of threat that was all about Alicent protecting her precious rapist if servant girl didn't go quietly. She is also happy to have crazy Larys at her beck and call, knowing he killed his own father and brother.

She knows her son is completely unsuited for rule, given he's a raping rapist, but she decided to take Viserys' words, while almost completely zonked out on milk of the poppy, to mean that it's her Aegon he's referring to in terms of the Prince Who Was Promised. She's hearing what she wants to hear, not the actual truth. Which PWWP or not, she has known for decades that he wants his eldest child, Rhaenyra, on the throne. Period. Not his eldest son with her. A son whom she has no more sway over than Cersei had with Joffrey. Less, actually, which speaks volumes. 

I'm not been impressed with Rhaenyra either as she basically peaced out to Dragonstone for the better part of a decade instead of preparing to rule. 

I'm glad we are done with the time jumps as loving the show as I am, things felt so incredibly rushed and beats weren't played that should have been like Rhaenyra and Harwin's relationship, Viserys' reaction to Rhaenyra marrying Daemon, or knowing so little about the children of Rhaenyra/Harwin (who are about to become major players) and even Viserys/Alicent's children not being very fleshed out except Aegon II is a rapist, Aemond is a eye-patch wearing heir apparent to Uncle Daemon's swagger, and Helaena tells the future in poems when she's not being raped by her brother/husband. Oh, and there's no mention of the youngest child, Daeron, who is apparently in Old Town.

I did like this tiny glimpse of happiness with Helaena. 

I have a feeling it will the last bright spot for a good long while. 

Thank you to the eagle-eyed posters who recognized spotting actor Ewan Mitchell hiding behind that scar and eyepath, whom I know as Osferth/Baby Monk from The Last Kingdom. I knew I knew him from somewhere and it will be interesting to watch him in this role and, as I love him as Osferth, I guess I will love to hate him as Aemond vs out and out hate of Aegon II. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

He is significantly older than his cousins, isn't he?  Weren't Alicent's children all born well before Rhaenyra even got married? 

Not quite. At the time of Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding (in the show, at least), Aegon is three and Helaena is one. Aemond comes next, so he and Jace would be of an age or nearly so.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Dobian]

After a season-long flesh-eating illness and getting sicklier in each episode as the years flew by, I finally was saying during the family dinner when Viserys was conking out, "Oh just die already!"

[Affogato]

16 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

 But she's definitely not riding the short dragon to school. If I was a member of that family, I'd definitely disassociate too. 

Okay that is ableist, I'm sure, but it is also adorable. Riding the short dragon....

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I'm a little rusty on my Westerosi family and inheritance law, but Vaemond said that he would inherit Driftmark if Corlys had no heirs, since Jace and Luke are "allegedly" illegitimate. Wouldn't Laena be the next heir after her brother and his children? If so, wouldn't that make Baela and Rhaena heirs before Vaemond?

I understand the male primogeniture of inheritance but do they skip over the girls entirely?

I'm actually not sure about Westerostii royal inheritance, but it was not until 2011 that the commonwealths approved changes giving daughters equal rights of inheritance:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sons and daughters of any future UK monarch will have equal right to the throne, after Commonwealth leaders agreed to change succession laws.

The leaders of the 16 Commonwealth countries where the Queen is head of state unanimously approved the changes at a summit in Perth, Australia.

It means a first-born daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge would take precedence over younger brothers.

The ban on the monarch being married to a Roman Catholic was also lifted.

Under the old succession laws, dating back more than 300 years, the heir to the throne is the first-born son of the monarch. Only when there are no sons, as in the case of the Queen's father George VI, does the crown pass to the eldest daughter.

The succession changes will require a raft of historic legislation to be amended, including the 1701 Act of Settlement, the 1689 Bill of Rights and the Royal Marriages Act 1772.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-15492607

-------------------------------------------------------------------

https://winteriscoming.net/2020/02/12/george-rr-martin-explains-laws-of-inheritance-westeros/

I did find this.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Affogato

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I'm a little rusty on my Westerosi family and inheritance law, but Vaemond said that he would inherit Driftmark if Corlys had no heirs, since Jace and Luke are "allegedly" illegitimate. Wouldn't Laena be the next heir after her brother and his children? If so, wouldn't that make Baela and Rhaena heirs before Vaemond?

I understand the male primogeniture of inheritance but do they skip over the girls entirely?

I am operating under the assumption that Westerosi inheritance basically skips over women if it is at all possible. 

In other words:

First in the order of succession are any sons, starting with the eldest, then in age order.

Second in the order of succession are any brothers, again starting with the eldest.

Third in the order of succession are any male cousins or uncles, starting with the eldest.

It would only be somewhere after that that a wife or a daughter might be considered.

But this is largely a guess on my part, based in part on GOT and the line of succession, which presumably works the same way for estates in general as it does for kingdoms. (Stannis' claim for the kingdom was based on the children being illegitimate, Renly tried to make his own claim that was embraced by some but rejected by others as being the younger brother, while poor Myrcella was not considered at all to be a possible successor to Joffrey when he died.) 

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

We only saw her most recent reaction- Alicent has had a lot of practice and has likely reacted each of ten different ways before she found the method that remedied the situation most expeditiously. That she settled on "kindness and cash" was a pragmatic decision and in no way mitigated her enabling of her son's behavior.

I believe the whole scene was done to please the modern audience, because in that kind of society anybody in Alicent's position would have absolutely no need to do anything at all: nobody would have believed the servant girl and nobody would have cared about her fate - and she would know it. The rape mattered (and was even called a rape) only when the offer was of noble birth and her family was powerful enough to revenge the rapist or his family.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Roseanna
adding a word

[AntFTW]

17 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am operating under the assumption that Westerosi inheritance basically skips over women if it is at all possible. 

In other words:

First in the order of succession are any sons, starting with the eldest, then in age order.

Second in the order of succession are any brothers, again starting with the eldest.

Third in the order of succession are any male cousins or uncles, starting with the eldest.

It would only be somewhere after that that a wife or a daughter might be considered.

But this is largely a guess on my part, based in part on GOT and the line of succession, which presumably works the same way for estates in general as it does for kingdoms. (Stannis' claim for the kingdom was based on the children being illegitimate, Renly tried to make his own claim that was embraced by some but rejected by others as being the younger brother, while poor Myrcella was not considered at all to be a possible successor to Joffrey when he died.) 

Could be. I always assumed that Myrcella was not considered to be a successor or talked about as a successor because they had Tommen.

I don't think we've ever seen it play out where there was a possible male heir and if the female heir had the better claim to the inheritance.

Sansa and Ayra were in the line of succession but there were no other males to claim the role as the ruler/warden in Winterfell.

There appeared to be no other male heirs after Lyanna Mormont.

There were no male heirs left for the Tarlys after Randal and Dickon died, and Sam was ineligible to the inheritance.

This is largely a guess on my part also 🤣

Edited October 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

But one would think a faster emotional connection with the characters would strengthen one's attachment to the show and be the desired reaction.

I can't get connection with any characters because they are all too stupid and too cruel or both. They aren't interesting but only chess pieces.

And why even bother because abybody could be killed in any time?

[dramachick]

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But this is largely a guess on my part, based in part on GOT and the line of succession, which presumably works the same way for estates in general as it does for kingdoms. (Stannis' claim for the kingdom was based on the children being illegitimate, Renly tried to make his own claim that was embraced by some but rejected by others as being the younger brother, while poor Myrcella was not considered at all to be a possible successor to Joffrey when he died.) 

As I said above, in all the Seven Kingdoms except Dorne (where the eldest child inherits regardless of sex) all of a lord's daughters come after all his sons regardless of age, but they normally come before their father's younger brothers unless ruled differently for whatever reason because the application of Westerosi law is slapdash. (source: GoT DVD extras. Also we saw in this show that Rhea Royce's male cousin Gerold Royce only became heir to Runestone after she died.)

It's different for the Iron Throne because of the precedent set by the Great Council where Rhaenys was passed over despite being the eldest son's daughter, hence Myrcella was not in consideration as long as any male heirs existed. Shireen was Stannis's heir only because he had no sons, living brothers or legitimate nephews. (source: GoT DVD extras)

Edited October 12, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[PatsyandEddie]

Thank you dramachick! 
Such a lovely message from Paddy. ❤️

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I believe the whole scene was done to please the modern audience, because in that kind of society anybody in Alicent's position would have absolutely no need to do anything at all: nobody would have believed the servant girl and nobody would have cared about her fate - and she would know it. The rape mattered (and was even called a rape) only when the offer was of noble birth and her family was powerful enough to revenge the rapist or his family.

Considering the religious trappings of the castle I the nk we are meant to believe that Alicent has gotten religion and with it some sense of morality, compassion and charity.   

[Cristofle]

Alicent giving the girls moon tea really isn't that surprising in Westerosi terms - I'm not surprised she doesn't want a bajillion Aegon bastards running across the place. It's entirely possible/likely she hasn't caught them all, heh, but as we've seen so often - Westerosi bastards are seen with suspicion and derision, and sometimes are talked to or at like they are not even human (Vaemond in this episode referred to Luke as "that"). Alicent clearly does not approve of bastards being born. Her sympathy for the girl was another matter - modern audiences, Alicent has gone deeper into her faith, whatever. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

12 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Considering the religious trappings of the castle I the nk we are meant to believe that Alicent has gotten religion and with it some sense of morality, compassion and charity.   

Alicent always had religion. Now she gets to blazon it everywhere.

[RobertDeSneero]

Regarding inheritance in Westeros, Martin has said it is uncodified and irregular.  It sounds like it defaults to male-preference primogeniture, but this can be overruled.  Someone can designate their own heir different from the traditional succession.  This seems to require confirmation by the crown.  The crown can also overrule either the traditional or designated heir.

Of course, overruling either traditional or declared succession could cause the displaced to wish to contest the succession, which may lead to armed conflict, so a wise ruler usually needs a good reason to approve a change in inheritance.

[Avabelle]

I don’t know if I can stick this out. Every episode is just Alicent being a c*** and getting away with it. There’s no enjoyment at all when the shitty side is just always smugly winning.

[proserpina65]

3 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Not quite. At the time of Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding (in the show, at least), Aegon is three and Helaena is one. Aemond comes next, so he and Jace would of an age or nearly so.

Thanks.  I've lost track of everyone's ages with the time jumps.  And mostly not caring that much, honestly.

I have to confess, Aemond is my favorite character.  Not because he's a good person or anything, just because he has the potential to be interesting.  Rather like Daemon in that respect.  Which is more than I can say for any of Rhaenyra's children so far.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

Yep, the reason Sansa was considered to be a lynchpin of attaining the North was because her (trueborn) brothers were all dead or believed to be dead. Well, Robb wasn't dead yet when Tywin originally ordered Tyrion to marry Sansa and nail down the North, so to speak, but his time was considered borrowed and Bran and Rickon had been believed to be dead for some time because Theon had faked their deaths after they fled. Also, Rickon was considered more dangerous to Ramsey in terms of a claim to Winterfell not just than Jon because he was (supposedly) a bastard, but Sansa because she was a girl. So basically, all the boys have to drop out first unless somehow it's decreed otherwise. 

Let's throw Uncle Benjen Stark in the scenario. Let's assume he was alive and in Westeros. Would the succession skip over the Ned Stark's presumably last remaining child as the world knew it, Sansa, in favor of Benjen?

I don't think we've ever had that scenario tested before, right? Well, I guess until now in this episode.

Edited October 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[MrsR]

Well let's talk actual English history because that's the primary influence here.

When Henry I lost his only legitimate son William Adelin in a famous party boat accident, he designated his only other legitimate child, Matilda, as his heir and made all his barons swear fealty to her, including her first cousin Stephen of Blois. When Henry I died Stephen broke his oath, and claimed the throne. 

This led to a 12 year war in England known as The Anarchy. Matilda had ample resources and skills, being the former Empress of the Holy Roman Empire and had her other relatives such as her uncle the King of Scotland supporting her.

The war eventually became a stalemate with each side controlling territory. This upset the balance of trade throughout Western Europe and eventually the Pope has to intervene.

He declares Stephen King, (knowing full well that he is quickly dying,) and declares Stephen's heir to be Matilda's son Henry Plantagenet, bypassing Stephen's son Eustace. Stephen dies several months later and Henry II is crowned.

This establishes the Plantagenet dynasty and in their minds that the crown can pass through a woman and to a woman.  Henry briefly considers bypassing an older sibling for a younger as an heir but never does it.

Edward III in the 14th century tries to claim the French crown through his mother when his uncle the French King died without issue but the French tell him to piss off and he starts the Hundred Year War because of this.

All though there never was a Plantagenet queen, the Tudors, Plantagenets in all ways but name, eventually give us Mary and Elizabeth. 

Naming an heir was a very Anglo Saxon custom.

Edited October 12, 2022 by MrsR

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Let's throw Uncle Benjen Stark in the scenario. Let's assume he was alive and in Westeros. Would the succession skip over the Ned Stark's presumably last remaining child as the world knew it, Sansa, in favor of Benjen?

And not in the Night's Watch.

No. Unless the Northern lords really, really wanted it to. See above.

The land north of the Wall is still Westeros. Westeros is the continent, the Seven Kingdoms are the country.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Avabelle]

Can someone explain to me why the queens maid was meeting with daemons ex flame?

Also was what Viscerys talking about the promised prince to Alicent? Or was he just babbling..

Edited October 12, 2022 by Avabelle

[CountryGirl]

Speaking of English history, the reusing of names doesn't bother me when I consider that we had multiple players with the same names in the later years of the War of the Roses.

The Richards:

• Richard, Duke of York (Father of Edward IV and Richard III)
• Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick (The Kingmaker, uncle to Edward IV, George, Duke of Clarence, and Richard III)
• Richard III
• Richard, Duke of York (son of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville)
• Richard Grey (son of Elizabeth Woodville and her first husband, John Grey)

The Edwards:

• Edward IV
• Edward V 
• Edward, Prince of Wales (son of Henry VI and Margaret of Anjou)
• Edward of Middleham (son of Richard III and Anne Neville)
• Edward, Duke of Warwick (son of George, Duke of Clarence and Isabelle Neville)

So having an Aegon II and Aegon III and Viserys I and Viserys(?) is really child's play compared to these lists. HoD has the edge with spelling complexity though.

[LanceM]

1 minute ago, Avabelle said:

Can someone explain to me why the queens maid was meeting with daemons ex flame?

Mysaria runs a network of spies (much like Varys in GOT). The maid was one of those spies. We also saw this in episode 4 with the little kid who spied on Rhaenyra at the brothel. 

[Avabelle]

3 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Mysaria runs a network of spies (much like Varys in GOT). The maid was one of those spies. We also saw this in episode 4 with the little kid who spied on Rhaenyra at the brothel. 

Ohhh ok.