S06.E14: The Night Before the Wedding

[Cosmocrush]

On 4/26/2022 at 7:01 PM, ams1001 said:

The applause at the kiss was a bit much. 🙄

I had something in my eye otherwise I would have been applauding too.  😍

You always think you have more time and then one day you are 45 - half your life is over and the timing is finally right. 

I loved it. 

[CrystalBlue]

10 hours ago, Ohmo said:

While true that Kate/Phillip aren't my fave, Kate sticks out like a sore thumb to me because:

Jack and Rebecca were Jack and Rebecca.

After Jack, Rebecca married Miguel, who had been a family friend for years.

Kevin and Sophie met when they were children.

Randall and Beth met in college.

Kate has been an absolute train wreck with partners.  There was Mark, and then IIRC, she was involved with a married man while working at the diner.  As far as I'm concerned, she actively threw her marriage to Toby away with both hands.  The flash forward may show Kate and Phillip being together when Jack is an adult, but that's more of the show just saying "Hey, Kate and Philip are together."  We've actually seen very little of them as a couple.

Working things out with Toby (instead of what was actually written) would have shown Kate in an imperfect but enduring situation.  That's how most of her family operates, except for her.

As far as I'm concerned, she actively threw her marriage to Toby away with both hand and kicked him to the curb with both feet!

Working things out with your spouse in a marriage which is an imperfect but enduring situation.  YES!  Like all marriages, none of which are perfect.

Edited April 30, 2022 by CrystalBlue

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, LexieLily said:

I don't (realistically) see them making it even six months from Kate/PMJ's wedding.

I gave up trying to think of them realistically when the show tried to sell me that 6 year old boy Kevin laid eyes on Sophie and from then on, no other (6 year old) girl mattered. It's a fairy tale like the Princess Bride.

[mansonlamps]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I gave up trying to think of them realistically when the show tried to sell me that 6 year old boy Kevin laid eyes on Sophie and from then on, no other (6 year old) girl mattered. It's a fairy tale like the Princess Bride.

Lol, he had a "Thunderbolt" moment (from the Godfather) at six.   Yeah that's normal😂

[Blakeston]

If Kevin's been carrying around that valentine for 40 years, I have a hard time believing he never showed it to Sophie in season one, when he was trying so hard to win her back.

[maggiemae]

I don't get why Kevin even left his room after Sophie left, and then flirted with the singer at the bar.

Then put the napkin with the song down in his room rather than in the trash.

A woman certainly knows how her hair smells with her shampoo at 45 vs college years.

And I find it hard to believe Kevin never, ever, ever showed her the valentine he carried in his wallet for decades.

[Jeddah]

52 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

If Kevin's been carrying around that valentine for 40 years, I have a hard time believing he never showed it to Sophie in season one, when he was trying so hard to win her back.

Or when they were married. It makes no sense.

[Thumper]

On 4/27/2022 at 12:06 PM, izabella said:

My husband and I are living proof that Kevin and Sophie can work out.  We met when I was 18, tried dating several times which always ended up being messy, stayed friends, dated other people, tried again, stopped talking for a few years, I moved across country and years later moved back, kept dating other people...the works.  Our connection was undeniable, but we both needed to do some growing up and really figure out what we wanted out of life. 

FINALLY, we spent months talking through the past and our issues, and then got back together.  Apparently, our timing was right that time, because everything between us was so easy, and was exactly what we had always believed our relationship could be if we would just freaking get our act together.  Five years after that, we married, and it's been the best thing ever. 

I believe Kevin and Sophie are in a similar place, and will be happy together.  I think they do need to do more talking and working through the past so they can move forward, but this was a first step toward that.  We just won't get a chance to see them do it on this show, which is a shame.

Yeah, I figured that this was just the beginning again and they’d probably date for awhile, maybe get some counseling, before they get married.  

[Red Fields]

I kept getting distracted by the fact that little Kevin didn’t have a cleft chin but grown Kevin does, and that little Sophie had a cleft chin but grown Sophie doesn’t!

[Boo Boo]

17 hours ago, Quiet1 said:

I'm trying to understand what you mean here. From my perspective Sophie was trying to figure out why she freaked out and left. What she is saying to Kevin here is like someone telling another "I need this, this and that". The other person is "okay, I'm on it, doing this, this and getting that, etc." Not that it's already a done deal sort of thing. Just that is what she knows she needs from him going forward. 

Which to me makes no sense.

He doesn't know the person she is today.   All either one of them know is what they had before.  So what is he supposed to do -- suppress fond memories, like the way her hair smells? 

I could understand this more if it was him dating her now and he's stuck in their past, but they are just rekindling.  He doesn't know how she's changed, how she's grown, that she uses a different shampoo.  

It's pretty clear the show is hell bent on redeeming Kevin so they are now glossing over what should be a valid concern:  You cheated on me before, will you do that again?

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Boo Boo

[Jersey409]

One of the worst, if not the worst , episode of TIU. As others said before , Sophie is so dull. What type of 45 year old woman mopes around looking all sad on a bench during someone’s wedding?  And she has seriously just wasted her life pining away over Kevin - no pets, no kids or passions, just Kevin. 

 

hilarious how some of you pointed out that he was ready to bounce into bed with Cassidy right after seeing Sophie. Valentines card did not choke me up in any way- stupid and unreal.

 

 Some Madison haters out there- I would have rather he ended up with her. I don’t think she’s only on the show because she’s a producers wife. She can be annoying ,but I think that’s the point .  Without Madison, Kate and Toby wouldn’t have hit it off so well- they kinda bonded over criticizing her in the overweight meetings. Madison’s presence also brought out Kevin’s douchebagness at the hospital seasons ago. Her role has been useful.
 

[peeayebee]

12 hours ago, Red Fields said:

I kept getting distracted by the fact that little Kevin didn’t have a cleft chin but grown Kevin does, and that little Sophie had a cleft chin but grown Sophie doesn’t!

And they're both so much taller!

[RedbirdNelly]

I loved it. I wanted the happy ending and it was nicely done. Happy for Kevin.

In my world, he doesn't carry the Valentine for all 40 years. At some point, he came across it in his box of elementary school stuff and chose to keep it. That's my story.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

Which to me makes no sense.

He doesn't know the person she is today.   All either one of them know is what they had before.  So what is he supposed to do -- suppress fond memories, like the way her hair smells? 

I could understand this more if it was him dating her now and he's stuck in their past, but they are just rekindling.  He doesn't know how she's changed, how she's grown, that she uses a different shampoo.  

It's pretty clear the show is hell bent on redeeming Kevin so they are now glossing over what should be a valid concern:  You cheated on me before, will you do that again?

 

I don't think the actors probably liked the way things are written sometimes. I think Alex glossed over the hotel scenes  when asked about them, she knew what would happen with Kevin, but they wanted to drag it out, so threw in Nicky, Cassidy etc. Really a waste of time, Rebecca was the best, but that's what you have to deal with and make the best of it. She did fine tune her speech a bit. Randall's speech etc,  it was like someone's kid wrote it but Rebecca's was good.

Milo has brought up many times he didn't like the Nicky arc, the way they had Jack act without redemption, he didn't think he would have done that the way they had it play out. I agree, he was a jerk many times, but not a monster. Other times they really did a great job with scripts. The inconsistency was going to happen but I think it happened more the last 2 years. Even prop errors. The ovulation/pregnancy mix up, the disappearing dog without explanation or at least saying it was somewhere, the hotel room changed from the time 2 years ago to now. They forgot about the clothes in the closet so just shut the doors this time, they made some silly reference for the makeup, they didn't have the clothes they had strewn around second time or the magazine I think.  I think someone said they were thinking of different scenarios but I feel the just didn't look at the room filmed before and as a writer said, didn't expect fans to study it that well. Really, lol? I think he was on the moon the last few years. 😄

Kevin also to my recollection didn't give the speech where he sounded like he was talking to his wife, not his sister (not the Princess Bride part) He said she looked beautiful in the way a partner would and then when he saw Kate in room right after, he said she looked pretty in an offhanded manner, the way a brother would. I wonder still if not another deleted scene, if that is a part of his wedding to Sophie shown in a FF clip. Doubt it but you never know. I never saw him do it at all.

Edited April 30, 2022 by debraran

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I loved it. I wanted the happy ending and it was nicely done. Happy for Kevin.

In my world, he doesn't carry the Valentine for all 40 years. At some point, he came across it in his box of elementary school stuff and chose to keep it. That's my story.

If only the show didn't have the Pearson home burn down in a fire.  That house fire was a pretty shortsighted thing to do for a show so obsessed with objects that either tell a story or symbolize the characters' feelings.  Then the show used the fire and the loss of so many things as a plot point in various episodes with Kevin and Randall fighting over Jack's watch, ot why Kevin needs Jack's dogtags after leaving them in the home of his former classmate and one night stand or the piano Miguel gifted Rebecca after the fire that is now Kate's or Rebecca freaking out about the burst pipe in the cabin that threatened to destroy the few remaining artifacts from the Big 3's childhood. That valentine would have either burned up in the fire or the water used to put out the fire would have ruined it.  Unless Kevin left it in the cabin as a child and found it years later as an adult.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I loved it. I wanted the happy ending and it was nicely done. Happy for Kevin.

In my world, he doesn't carry the Valentine for all 40 years. At some point, he came across it in his box of elementary school stuff and chose to keep it. That's my story.

But how was it NOT destroyed in the Great Crockpot Fire of '98?

[debraran]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

But how was it NOT destroyed in the Great Crockpot Fire of '98?

He wasn't home I thought,  he was with Sophie? I'm sure wallet was with him. I know they retrieved things later that didn't burn but being TV it would be all they needed. ; )

[Thumper]

I don’t remember half the detail many of you do! 😂

 

[debraran]

2 minutes ago, Thumper said:

I don’t remember half the detail many of you do! 😂

 

I don't have the patience or desire to re watch episodes but I do love youtube because they have hundreds of clips from pivotal episodes and those 2-3 minutes do a lot to refresh memory. (well at my age) ; ) Even the Sophie ones, I knew the graveyard/ring scenes well and how Claire was his second mom,  but not until a watched a compilation of all their scenes from 7-8 years on did I realize how much I forgot and how much detail they had in intertwining their lives. No way after seeing that, could he be with anyone else because too much effort went into doing them for a reason.

I give fans credit who rewatch the series but I just can't do that with this show. ER I did but not this one the way it was done and knowing the outcomes. I do like seeing some old clips though.

[PRgal]

34 minutes ago, debraran said:

He wasn't home I thought,  he was with Sophie? I'm sure wallet was with him. I know they retrieved things later that didn't burn but being TV it would be all they needed. ; )

True, but would he have kept it in his wallet all these years?  Kevin probably didn't start carrying a wallet until he was 12 or so anyway.  

[Ohmo]

On 4/29/2022 at 4:14 PM, JKL845 said:

They are both wanting to give it another chance because they still love each other.

Yes.  As for "loving her the way she is now," she's going to have to do that, too.  I think that's what her comment was about---a reminder for both of them to stay in the present moving forward.  Their reality, however, will be a mix of both, I think.  They'll be in the present as a couple, but I think they'll also be times when they go back to the past.  There's way too much history there to not have it have an impact.

As to trusting him again, I think she does.  The way they are with each other, I think she does.  Specifically with them, yes, he did cheat, but they were so young, getting married then was likely not the best choice.  As an adult, Kevin has slept around, but he's never been unfaithful to someone while in a relationship.  In their case, I don't think of Kevin's cheating in the same way that I would think of cheating in a marriage between two older people.  He's had many sexual partners, but he hasn't cheated on them.  I think that's because he's always been reminded of what that cost him with Sophie.

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

True, but would he have kept it in his wallet all these years?  Kevin probably didn't start carrying a wallet until he was 12 or so anyway.  

I think some are assuming that that was the first time that Sophie saw that valentine.  That may not be the case.  Him pulling it out of his wallet and saying that it's always been her could have been a "Remember this? I still have it."  Instead of it being the first time she's seen it, it could have been the first time she's seen it in awhile.  I don't remember her saying, "I've never seen that before" or anything like that. She could have also seen it when they were married.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Ohmo

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I think some are assuming that that was the first time that Sophie saw that valentine.  That may not be the case.  Him pulling it out of his wallet and saying that it's always been her could have been a "Remember this? I still have it."  Instead of it being the first time she's seen it, it could have been the first time she's seen it in awhile.  I don't remember her saying, "I've never seen that before" or anything like that. She could have also seen it when they were married.

The writer said at some point Kevin supposedly kept putting it in new wallets as he aged, just like some women put things in their purse/wallet when they get a new one. He did it with ticket stub and a pic so it wasn't far fetched to him. I took it as he always had the valentine and at some point, teens maybe he kept it with him. The writers stretched things a bit but they've done much worse.

Edited April 30, 2022 by debraran

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, debraran said:

He wasn't home I thought,  he was with Sophie? I'm sure wallet was with him. I know they retrieved things later that didn't burn but being TV it would be all they needed. ; )

That's only if he started carrying that in his wallet.  We don't know that he was ALWAYS carrying it there - certainly not when he was, say, 9.  Not too many kids have wallets with them all the time, not then, not now (at least I don't think so.  Mine is 3 1/2, so he definitely DOES NOT).  Unless it was bake sale or book fair day!!!  That's when we have money (because those Scholastic Book Fairs ROCKED!!!!!).

[LexieLily]

The writers said that Madison was never meant to be a love interest and she was only the mother of Kevin's children and everything was planned all along for it to be Sophie as Kevin's endgame. 

…was that what this episode was supposed to be and why they hurry-married Madison off and gave her a new kid off-screen in the time jump?

[Marley]

Madison sucks so I’m happy she’s off with stupid Elijah and her new kid lol.

[maggiemae]

Jack dismissed his father, his mother and his brother from his life.

And made the "Big Three." They are odd too. Especially Kate and Randall...

Kate was never a princess. Randall has a great and successful family but was obsessed by Deja to the detriment of his family and especially his girls. Let alone his bio parents.

Kevin has kept important people in his life...his uncle, Cassidy, Madison, to a certain extent Sophie. Notice Randall and Kate are not close to their uncle even now.

I just never get why Jack was St Jack and is so well loved. Actually like on a pedestal...

He encouraged Randall, let down Kevin, did nothing except spoil and ruin Kate.

 

[brokenwing29]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:54 PM, bros402 said:

The Big 3 were born, what, 1980?

According to social security, Sophie was not in the top 1000 in 1980, but Sophia was #366 (641 girls named Sophia were born). Sofia was at #825 (191 were born). Sophie entered the top 1000 names in 1984, after having not been in the top 1000 since 1955. It has been in the top 1000 every year since 1984, with its peak being #51 in 2011.

On the other hand, Kevin was #23 (17,984), Kate was #197 (1,330), and Randall was #136 (2,025)

Correct... so it would be very unlikely that there would have been two Sophies in their class. It's just a detail, but if you and I can find this information easily, surely the writers who are getting paid to come up with character names could do the same.

Edited May 1, 2022 by brokenwing29

[Boo Boo]

16 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Yes.  As for "loving her the way she is now," she's going to have to do that, too.  I think that's what her comment was about---a reminder for both of them to stay in the present moving forward.  Their reality, however, will be a mix of both, I think.  They'll be in the present as a couple, but I think they'll also be times when they go back to the past.  There's way too much history there to not have it have an impact.

As to trusting him again, I think she does.  The way they are with each other, I think she does.  Specifically with them, yes, he did cheat, but they were so young, getting married then was likely not the best choice.  As an adult, Kevin has slept around, but he's never been unfaithful to someone while in a relationship.  In their case, I don't think of Kevin's cheating in the same way that I would think of cheating in a marriage between two older people.  He's had many sexual partners, but he hasn't cheated on them.  I think that's because he's always been reminded of what that cost him with Sophie.

I know people can somehow forgive a partner for cheating, but these two, in my opinion have the foundation for distrust.

Not only did he cheat on her the first time they were married, but both of them while in committed relationships found themselves on the verge of kissing -- not once, but twice.  

We also know that Kevin, at the first hint of trouble in a relationship or immediately after, heads right to another woman -- one incident (fresh off the near kiss with Sophie) ended up with Madison getting pregnant.

We also know that despite whomever Sophie was with at the time, that she pined away for Kevin.  Couldn't FF through the Manny for fuck's sake.  

I don't know, to me, she shouldn't have been in any relationship if she couldn't let go of a relationship.  She shouldn't have put herself close to Kevin if the urge to kiss was that strong.  

She shouldn't have called him right before his wedding.  

It's portrayed as two people hopelessly in love but they've already had 2 attempts at a relationship in the past and it ended badly.  Sure people change and grow, but I wouldn't find either one of them trustworthy.  I would also argue that if you've had 2 actual attempts at a relationship and both didn't work out, you have sexual chemistry and nostalgia and that's it.

 

[RedbirdNelly]

23 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

If only the show didn't have the Pearson home burn down in a fire.  That house fire was a pretty shortsighted thing to do for a show so obsessed with objects that either tell a story or symbolize the characters' feelings.  Then the show used the fire and the loss of so many things as a plot point in various episodes with Kevin and Randall fighting over Jack's watch, ot why Kevin needs Jack's dogtags after leaving them in the home of his former classmate and one night stand or the piano Miguel gifted Rebecca after the fire that is now Kate's or Rebecca freaking out about the burst pipe in the cabin that threatened to destroy the few remaining artifacts from the Big 3's childhood. That valentine would have either burned up in the fire or the water used to put out the fire would have ruined it.  Unless Kevin left it in the cabin as a child and found it years later as an adult.

fair point--but in my fan waving version, they kept some stuff in the cabin. . .

[Tabbygirl521]

On 4/29/2022 at 1:14 PM, JKL845 said:

But Kevin and Sophie aren't leaving Kate's wedding to rush off to elope. They are both wanting to give it another chance because they still love each other. Behavior changes were seen, maturing, but the core of who the person is, remains. That's what they know and love about each other. Any one else that Kevin gets into a relationship with will have to start from scratch to get to know him, and they would have to accept that he is and always will be in love with Sophie. Same with anyone getting involved with Sophie, they showed that she will always be in love with Kevin. So it would be awful for either of them to be in a relationship with anyone else. They can't help it. They love each other and want to continue their love story wherever it leads them. I'm happy they found their way back to each other!

Yes. She actually said something like she wanted the chance to gal in love with this new grownup “him.” (Paraphrasing .). She wantS to explore the possibility. 

[Cosmocrush]

22 hours ago, maggiemae said:

Jack dismissed his father, his mother and his brother from his life.

And made the "Big Three." They are odd too. Especially Kate and Randall...

Kate was never a princess. Randall has a great and successful family but was obsessed by Deja to the detriment of his family and especially his girls. Let alone his bio parents.

Kevin has kept important people in his life...his uncle, Cassidy, Madison, to a certain extent Sophie. Notice Randall and Kate are not close to their uncle even now.

I just never get why Jack was St Jack and is so well loved. Actually like on a pedestal...

He encouraged Randall, let down Kevin, did nothing except spoil and ruin Kate.

 

This is an interesting perspective to me @maggiemae. 

I am one of those viewers who has always loved Jack, maybe even like on a pedestal, especially as a husband but also as a father.    It started at the very start with adopting Randall and then only got stronger for me. 

I never thought about Kevin that way but you are not wrong.

Kevin was drawn to help Uncle Nicky because besides being able to relate as an alcoholic he had the time and the resources but it's undeniable that Kate and Kevin are not nearly as close, or even close to him.

 

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Cosmocrush said:

This is an interesting perspective to me @maggiemae. 

I am one of those viewers who has always loved Jack, maybe even like on a pedestal, especially as a husband but also as a father.    It started at the very start with adopting Randall and then only got stronger for me. 

I never thought about Kevin that way but you are not wrong.

Kevin was drawn to help Uncle Nicky because besides being able to relate as an alcoholic he had the time and the resources but it's undeniable that Kate and Kevin are not nearly as close, or even close to him.

 

I"ve never been a big Jack fan, I always saw him as smothering Rebecca, making decisions for her, then she would go along. Not often did she just say "No we aren't doing that, living here, buying that, and I'm not making Kate another costume because you said so!" : ) He had good traits but not perfect like many fans see. Once early on someone wrote an article on all the things he did as the "head" of the family from Randall on that did not make them 50/50 in anything really. I think Milo has pointed out his errors too but once a fan loves you, they rarely see the faults. He always seemed to me to tell Rebecca we are going here, we are buying this, we are moving to this apartment, that sort of thing. He was not understanding at all what she needed with Kyle's death. They never even thought about Randall being black when they adopted him and how he will see the world and others see him. Pretending he's exactly like you isn't smart but Jack did try later and with martial arts class to see with Randall's eyes. Kevin was ignored to some degree and he did cater to Kate but undermining Rebecca made Kate think he loved her more. I only remember once when he was drinking and talking to her, that he told her not to call her mom "the princess" or something like that. No one is perfect, Jack was a better dad than many had, but I don't think Rebecca would have been so clueless after his death if she knew her own worth and was 50/50 more. She wouldn't need Randall to be Jack or resent Kevin leaving. Kate wouldn't be so lost if she had her own self worth and was made to know she could chase her dreams and be productive. I think partly the reason Kate isn't shown closer to Nicky is that he is a reminder that the Saint Jack did something and hid something pretty big. What you saw during Kevin's counseling was that no one could say anything about Jack, no one could have their own perspective or memory. That was a good segment.

Edited May 2, 2022 by debraran

[Aloeonatable]

On 4/30/2022 at 9:18 PM, maggiemae said:

Jack dismissed his father, his mother and his brother from his life.

And made the "Big Three." They are odd too. Especially Kate and Randall...

Kate was never a princess. Randall has a great and successful family but was obsessed by Deja to the detriment of his family and especially his girls. Let alone his bio parents.

Kevin has kept important people in his life...his uncle, Cassidy, Madison, to a certain extent Sophie. Notice Randall and Kate are not close to their uncle even now.

I just never get why Jack was St Jack and is so well loved. Actually like on a pedestal...

He encouraged Randall, let down Kevin, did nothing except spoil and ruin Kate.

 

 From what we learned, Jack's father physically and emotionally abused his family for years. I would have walked away from that easily. He moved his mother away from the abuse and as far as we know, he spoke with her every week until she died. Both she and he tried to forget those years with Stanley, and in doing so, it caused them to grow apart. As for Nicky, Jack thought that he intentionally caused the death of a child. I agree with Milo, Jack should have mended the rift when he had the chance. 

Jack and Rebecca both influenced their children. I think they were a sign of their time. Jack so wanted the perfect family, that he did dominate. Rebecca seemed to always give in; why? When she kicked him out after their major blowup about his drinking, why did she go to Miguel's the very next day to persuade him to come home? I think it was simply because she loved him deeply. She knew deep down he was a good man.

No one is perfect. We are our parents' children, but there are so many other influencers in our lives. Jack encouraged all of his children, including Kevin. To be honest, I loathe the term "Saint Jack." Never saw him as perfect. I saw him as a loving husband and father trying his best. 

[Boo Boo]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

I"ve never been a big Jack fan, I always saw him as smothering Rebecca, making decisions for her, then she would go along. Not often did she just say "No we aren't doing that, living here, buying that, and I'm not making Kate another costume because you said so!" : ) He had good traits but not perfect like many fans see. Once early on someone wrote an article on all the things he did as the "head" of the family from Randall on that did not make them 50/50 in anything really. I think Milo has pointed out his errors too but once a fan loves you, they rarely see the faults. He always seemed to me to tell Rebecca we are going here, we are buying this, we are moving to this apartment, that sort of thing. He was not understanding at all what she needed with Kyle's death. They never even thought about Randall being black when they adopted him and how he will see the world and others see him. Pretending he's exactly like you isn't smart but Jack did try later and with martial arts class to see with Randall's eyes. Kevin was ignored to some degree and he did cater to Kate but undermining Rebecca made Kate think he loved her more. I only remember once when he was drinking and talking to her, that he told her not to call her mom "the princess" or something like that. No one is perfect, Jack was a better dad than many had, but I don't think Rebecca would have been so clueless after his death if she knew her own worth and was 50/50 more. She wouldn't need Randall to be Jack or resent Kevin leaving. Kate wouldn't be so lost if she had her own self worth and was made to know she could chase her dreams and be productive. I think partly the reason Kate isn't shown closer to Nicky is that he is a reminder that the Saint Jack did something and hid something pretty big. What you saw during Kevin's counseling was that no one could say anything about Jack, no one could have their own perspective or memory. That was a good segment.

I agree, although the show certainly wants us to believe in Jack and Rebecca as the ultimate love story, that he was the best dad ever, best friend ever.  Sure, we had a couple of fleeting moments where the show had him being an actual human being with some flaws that were obviously flaws, but he sure seemed to conquer those fast.  The other things you mention -- the bulldozing of Rebecca's life and even the jealousy episodes seem to be painted as big romantic gestures from a man so in love with his wife that he didn't even want to do a golfing weekend with his buds! 

So in my mind, the show led the fans to idolize Jack.  There are just some of us that don't view big life changing gestures as being romantic or praiseworthy.

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Aloeonatable said:

 From what we learned, Jack's father physically and emotionally abused his family for years. I would have walked away from that easily. He moved his mother away from the abuse and as far as we know, he spoke with her every week until she died. Both she and he tried to forget those years with Stanley, and in doing so, it caused them to grow apart. As for Nicky, Jack thought that he intentionally caused the death of a child. I agree with Milo, Jack should have mended the rift when he had the chance. 

I personally think that Jack would have reconciled with Nicky.  When Jack died, he was working the AA program and also working through his own demons.  Eventually, Jack would have gotten to the place where he could handle Nicky and Nicky's demons.  Jack cut Nicky out of his life because he had enough on his plate being a working husband and dad of 3 kids and keeping Jack's own demons at bay.  He did not have the bandwidth to handle Nicky in the 80s and 90s.  Or at least, that is what I got from that scene in Nicky's trailer.  If Jack had lived another year or two, he would have had Randall at Howard, Kate at Berkelee or another university pursuing a degree, and Kevin would still be in NYC with Sophie.  Jack would have had time to meet with Nicky and talk.  How much that would have helped is another story.

[chocolatine]

6 hours ago, debraran said:

No one is perfect, Jack was a better dad than many had, but I don't think Rebecca would have been so clueless after his death if she knew her own worth and was 50/50 more.

I know this sounds harsh, but what exactly was Rebecca's "worth?" She was a pretty girl who sang in bars when she met Jack, never giving a thought to practical matters because her wealthy father supported her. She made one half-ass attempt at getting a record deal, gave up after not succeeding on the first try, then went back to singing in bars and let Jack support her. It had never occurred to her that *she* needed to contribute anything to the marriage beyond being pretty and receiving Jack's adoration. It was only after they had children, more than five years into their marriage, that she started to pull her weight, but by then the dynamic of Jack as the provider and decision maker had been well established.

ETA: She also let Jack take the full financial burden of putting Randall in private school. The kids were old enough by then that she could have worked outside the home, at least part-time, but that never seemed to cross her mind. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by chocolatine

[debraran]

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I know this sounds harsh, but what exactly was Rebecca's "worth?" She was a pretty girl who sang in bars when she met Jack, never giving a thought to practical matters because her wealthy father supported her. She made one half-ass attempt at getting a record deal, gave up after not succeeding on the first try, then went back to singing in bars and let Jack support her. It had never occurred to her that *she* needed to contribute anything to the marriage beyond being pretty and receiving Jack's adoration. It was only after they had children, more than five years into their marriage, that she started to pull her weight, but by then the dynamic of Jack as the provider and decision maker had been well established.

ETA: She also let Jack take the full financial burden of putting Randall in private school. The kids were old enough by then that she could have worked outside the home, at least part-time, but that never seemed to cross her mind. 

I do see your point, I forgot her upbringing. I feel she was treated like she was unable to contribute more than cooking , sewing and cleaning.  I was her era, nothing like that in my family or my parents who brought kids up in the 60s  My mom was Italian, home half of my years growing up but knew every dime my dad made, where it went, paid the bills  etc. She was brought into every decision and when he died she was devastated but knew how to do things and nothing was a mystery.  Being home with 3 kids is hard work, I had 3 too, including twins, but Rebecca's life was Jack and she never seemed strong to me.
Rebecca never seemed to have friends or hobbies or a job outside the home. Singing took a bad turn but I wish she did that on occasion just to make money at an event and get out. I love Miguel and I hope to see their marriage was different and she was more independent.
Rebecca and Jack both lied about people but Jack literally killed his brother to his wife which is not the same as “ dead to me” can’t deal with it. She would have understood that. Pretending William wasn’t around, also not good but she didn’t want to lose her son again but that story was beyond the pale to begin with. 

I look forward to seeing Miguel episodes tomorrow and I hope to see how Rebecca changed and matured. I love their relationship and chemistry. 
 

Edited May 3, 2022 by debraran

[Cosmocrush]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I know this sounds harsh, but what exactly was Rebecca's "worth?" She was a pretty girl who sang in bars when she met Jack, never giving a thought to practical matters because her wealthy father supported her. She made one half-ass attempt at getting a record deal, gave up after not succeeding on the first try, then went back to singing in bars and let Jack support her. It had never occurred to her that *she* needed to contribute anything to the marriage beyond being pretty and receiving Jack's adoration. It was only after they had children, more than five years into their marriage, that she started to pull her weight, but by then the dynamic of Jack as the provider and decision maker had been well established.

ETA: She also let Jack take the full financial burden of putting Randall in private school. The kids were old enough by then that she could have worked outside the home, at least part-time, but that never seemed to cross her mind. 

I'd like to think that carrying triples alone would be a contribution but then there is the care and feeding etc.  Running a house with three kids and a husband is a contribution as much as Jack's contribution was income.  I saw Jack and Rebecca as a team - not always 50/50 but varying. 

[chocolatine]

51 minutes ago, debraran said:

I do see your point, I forgot her upbringing. I feel she was treated like she was unable to contribute more than cooking , sewing and cleaning.

She treated herself that way though. She didn't have kids until she was 30. Plenty of time to establish her own identity, career, interests, etc., but being loved by Jack seems to have been enough for her.

4 minutes ago, Cosmocrush said:

I'd like to think that carrying triples alone would be a contribution but then there is the care and feeding etc.  Running a house with three kids and a husband is a contribution as much as Jack's contribution was income.  I saw Jack and Rebecca as a team - not always 50/50 but varying. 

Like I said, she did start to contribute once she had children, by raising them and running the household. But she had them when she was 30, and she apparently didn't do anything before then other than sing at open mic nights.

[CrystalBlue]

7 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I personally think that Jack would have reconciled with Nicky.  When Jack died, he was working the AA program and also working through his own demons.  Eventually, Jack would have gotten to the place where he could handle Nicky and Nicky's demons.  Jack cut Nicky out of his life because he had enough on his plate being a working husband and dad of 3 kids and keeping Jack's own demons at bay.  He did not have the bandwidth to handle Nicky in the 80s and 90s.  Or at least, that is what I got from that scene in Nicky's trailer.  If Jack had lived another year or two, he would have had Randall at Howard, Kate at Berkelee or another university pursuing a degree, and Kevin would still be in NYC with Sophie.  Jack would have had time to meet with Nicky and talk.  How much that would have helped is another story.

That would have been one hell of a reconciliation.  "Hey Bec?  Surprise!  You know the brother I had who I told you was dead?  Well, . . ."

Did Rebecca know that Nicky was alive?
The first thing fans have to keep in mind is that Rebecca didn't know Nicky was alive until well after Jack passed away. Her husband told her his brother was dead when they first met, believing his brother was lost in Vietnam. It wasn't until the early 1990s that Jack learned Nicky was alive.  Mar 26, 2020

And Jack still didn't tell Rebecca or the Big 3 about Nicky being alive.
 

[Irate Panda]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:57 AM, Blakeston said:

I don't think these would be plot points for a 210-pound character. 

A lot of IVF Clinics would refuse treatment to people over a certain BMI often that number is around 29.9 which is considered the high end of overweight verging on obese.  If Kate is around “average” height 5’5” that BMI would put her around 180 lbs, so I do think at least the fertility clinic thing could be a plot point at 210 pounds, but I do agree that I think Kate is probably closer to Chrissy’s size but the show just doesn’t talk about it. 
 

Other than saying something how she had a harder time finding a wedding dress (although Kevin or whoever probably got her a custom dress), I feel like the show would just be pointing out the actress was obese.  If the actress had lost weight they probably would have used more examples of how her life has changed or how some things are easier for her to do now.

I, also, didn’t understand why Sophie/Kevin didn’t use the concierge it’s not really a huge deal, it’s part of what they do.  I’ve gotten things before I wouldn’t imagine possible and I’m not an international movie star.  I get it was an opportunity for Sophie to tell part of her story, but it just seemed kind of ridiculous to traipse around hoping a dry cleaner would let you paw through unclaimed items.

I still don’t care that Kevin picked Sophie, although, I never felt Kevin had chemistry with any of the people I’ve seen him with.  I really don’t care about their story.  I would have preferred if Kevin realized he wasn’t chasing his “true love” but was chasing a way to complete himself, but realized he had done that by achieving his sobriety, career, and children.  He could have ended up with Sophie I guess, but they didn’t need a whole show about it.  They could have just added her at the end and we could have filled in the blanks.

Randall’s speech made no sense, but neither did most of this episode, so why forgo another Pearson speech? I mean it was probably a good 8 seconds since they had one.
 

I get Rebecca’s health issues are causing her to think Kevin is Jack, but there isn’t anything about those two that reminds me of the other.  I get maybe they couldn’t do too much physically, but are those 2 suppose to have similar mannerisms or is that how Alzheimer’s works in that Rebecca “knows” Kevin is familiar so she’s just filling in the name Jack because that a familiar name to her?

 BTW I never want to hear the word, “marriwage”, again.  

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Irate Panda

[BluBarbi98]

That was a lot sweeter than I expected and I'm okay with this result. Also, Uncle Nicky for the win! Like, I don't want to know but ... I want to know!

[Tdoc72]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:42 PM, debraran said:

The writer said at some point Kevin supposedly kept putting it in new wallets as he aged, just like some women put things in their purse/wallet when they get a new one. He did it with ticket stub and a pic so it wasn't far fetched to him. I took it as he always had the valentine and at some point, teens maybe he kept it with him. The writers stretched things a bit but they've done much worse.

In 1994, my then boyfriend/now deceased husband wrote a little note on a paper, like name loves name. I’ve moved it to every new wallet since. He passed away last year after 24 years of marriage and I don’t know if I’ll ever remove it. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Tdoc72

[debraran]

11 minutes ago, Tdoc72 said:

In 1994, my then boyfriend/now deceased husband wrote a little note on a paper, like name loves name. I’ve moved it to every new wallet since. He passed away last year after 24 years of marriage and I don’t know if I’ll ever remove it. 

That is sweet and I think less sentimental people don't understand but I never thought the idea was not plausible. Sophie was Kevin's soul. Fans forget scenes with so many, but he told her even 12 years after divorce, I never feel like I have my arm, I am missing it without you, I want it back, etc. Not everyone has a person like that but if you do, cherish it.

Edited May 5, 2022 by debraran

[debraran]

On 4/30/2022 at 10:22 PM, LexieLily said:

The writers said that Madison was never meant to be a love interest and she was only the mother of Kevin's children and everything was planned all along for it to be Sophie as Kevin's endgame. 

…was that what this episode was supposed to be and why they hurry-married Madison off and gave her a new kid off-screen in the time jump?

I think it was done too fast, they could have skipped the "wedding never meant to be" with Madison but the Covid epidemic made it hard for Alexandra to leave Canada and that year their schedules were more aligned. They worked it out but was very choppy. The fact they filmed her end scenes earlier was a testament they wanted her there.

[Scarlett45]

On 5/5/2022 at 4:05 AM, Tdoc72 said:

In 1994, my then boyfriend/now deceased husband wrote a little note on a paper, like name loves name. I’ve moved it to every new wallet since. He passed away last year after 24 years of marriage and I don’t know if I’ll ever remove it. 

That’s very beautiful and tender- I am sorry for your loss. 
 

I can see if Kevin felt that deeply about Sophie he would do such a thing. 
 

Regarding his spelling of the name- he may have asked an adult before hand to make sure he got it right. The very first letter I wrote to anyone as to my great Aunt Eunice who died October 2021, I practiced and practiced and asked my mom how to spell “Eunice” (the rest I was sure of)- kids take stuff like that seriously, especially when they really care about someone. 

[Crs97]

My mom used to put notes in my lunch when I was little, and I still have one neatly folded in my wallet.  I’m in my mid-50’s now.

[Kdawg82]

I know some have commented about Alexandra Breckenridge to be "bland." I agree and yet...there is something oddly satisfying about her look and her way. She is like kind of "average chick." And it makes me feel good about being kinda average chick. 

I liked how the boots with that dress made sense in the end.  When I first saw it, I wondered. Don't know why Sophie was still friends with Kate though. They seemed like their friendship was almost nonexistent once again. 

It doesn't bother me they ended up together but I also wished he and Madison worked out. But Madison is super happy with her man so that's the clicking that needs to happen & it wasn't there with Kevin. Just THRILLED it's not Cassidy.  I can't validate that character's existence even after all this time. So random. These celebrity brothers seem to pick up friends and strangers (especially Kevin) and take them on as besties. Like I would meet Charlie Sheen and become his confidante when we ran into each other at 7-11 and he told me his problems.  Yeah, right!

[MissLucas]

Cassidy is one of the partners in Big Three Housing. To me her presence in Kevin's life makes perfect sense. It makes less sense that he runs to her immediately after the shampoo debacle and then has yet another epiphany about Sophie. But that's not on Cassidy.