S04.E08: How Do You Get to Carnegie Hall?

[Pallas]

Midge and Joel debate Greek mythology. Susie finds a second phone line. A blizzard brings unexpected consequences.

[greekmom]

 

Thank you Lennie Bruce for telling Midge off!

[meligator]

Woo, Lenny Bruce continues to be a fucking icon

[maggiegil]

Luke Kirby is an excellent actor, the scenes in the hotel room and the other on the stage at Carnegie Hall were so good. I wasn't shipping Midge and Lenny and I kind of liked that they were just friends with sexual chemistry but I didn't hate them getting together.

As much as I enjoyed Midge and Lenny, with all the hospital scenes I was hoping we'd see Dr. Benjamin again.

Oh Susie, you managed to escape the gambling problems, please don't get in too deep with the mob

[ChelleGame]

Luke Kirby was killer in this episode.

[bybrandy]

Was this the finale?  What was the arc this season?  Rose has decided to do the job she was doing at the start of the season.  Moishe isn't dead. Miriam maybe has been told not to sabotage her career?  But maybe not because who knows with midge?   Joel's made some progress but who cares about Joel?  And quite frankly I don't have any reason to assume Mei is down with any of this plan the conversion or the baby based on the deer in headlights look she had talking to midge about basic levels of Joel's other kids are going to continue to exist.  But it feels like every single person was set back on the path that they either were on in the first episode of the season or should have been.

Still, you would like to think Midge wasn't so stupid that she needed Lenny to tell her she's stupid to pass up opportunities like Tony Bennet and honestly after Shy and the Jackie thing would you hire her?  Cause I wouldn't.  

[LadyRose]

It was sweet how Abe revealed his changed feelings about Moishe. He spent years thinking Moishe was a schmuck, but finally realizes what a mensch he is. And gets to tell him. I was touched.

Abe didn't spin his wheels this season. He started a new job,very different from his previous ones, plus the Moishe reversal. 

[LadyRose]

A lot happened with Susie this season. She got the office, hired Dinah, took on new clients. 

[LadyRose]

The advice Lennie gives Midge in this episode is the opposite of what Midge lays out in the first episode. She won't do opening acts, and she wants to change the business. Lennie tells he that to get ahead, she needs to do those opening acts and work within the business. Midge's vision of her career has come full circle...I hope. That was the arc this season: Midge learns that changing the business isn't the way to succeed in it, at least not yet. But the way it gets there is disjointed. Does she learn anything from the strip club, or was that just an excuse to stage all those fun dance numbers? She does gain a following. She also changes the club...by making it run the way a club should be run, in other words, by not changing the business. 

[greekmom]

I have to say that the sexual chemistry between Rachel Brosnahan and Luke Kirby was enough to smoke down the joint but then I have had a crush on Luke Kirby since I've seen him in Mambo Italiano and Cra$h & Burn.

I don't understand why Midge would turn down jobs because she wasn't the headliner.  She has to pay her dues. Lenny Bruce had to pay his dues and so did Sophie Lennon before they were headliners. Even when Sophie's career went into the toilet, she was looking for a job doing a game show instead of asking for the moon to start headlining again.

I wonder for all her talk if Midge is just afraid of success.

Wonder when Season 5 will air. I don't think I can wait another year +.

[ichbin]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

I don't understand why Midge would turn down jobs because she wasn't the headliner. 

I think I get the reasoning at this point in the story.  Joel was the headliner in their marriage while she was effectively the opening act, paving the way for him to get on stage with her scheming and briskets. Then he betrayed her. Shy was the headliner with the ability to dismiss her and end her job with the wave of his hand.  Midge knows she is funny and entertaining.  She is aware she has what it takes and wants to be in a position to take the power over her own future in the business and wants to put all of her energy behind that and not in service to another performer.  Unfortunately, the real world doesn't (particularly back then in terms of gender) doesn't generally work in favor of that.  I do think her stance made sense in terms of the story though and gives way to an ultimate redemption arc in the final season.

3 hours ago, LadyRose said:

Does she learn anything from the strip club, or was that just an excuse to stage all those fun dance numbers?

Oh, I think that was definitely part of the reason.  Someone was really enjoying including those dance numbers for sure, otherwise they wouldn't have been so produced and featured.  The only thing is that they seemed like burlesque and decades out of date even for the early '60's.  Some of those scenes, particularly in the dressing room, appear to have been influenced by Gypsy and that was set in the 20's or 30's.  

[EtheltoTillie]

I hope I'm not confusing episodes 7 and 8 . . .

Idiot plot syndrome:  Susie doesn't realize that Dinah is the best secretary ever--she gets things done before you even realize you need it.  She was really going to fire her?  The new act Dinah found was good. 

Also stupid:  Midge using the gangsters to gather information on Mei. 

Refusing to open for Tony Bennett was stupid, because it was just a one-time appearance,  not a long-term arrangement, and it would have gained her a measure of respect. 

[Cramps]

Midge played the strip club because Joan Rivers played strip clubs (as “Pepper January”). The show gets a lot of inspiration from Joan. 

Joan’s big career breakthrough came when she went on Carson and killed. Johnny Carson’s liking her and saying she was going to be a star carried weight back then that no talk show appearance today can come close to. It completly changed her life. I’m assuming the end of this episode, with the building sign from the talk show is hinting at something similar next season for Midge. 

Any scene with Lenny is incredible. They just elevate the series to another level. Luke Kirby is spectacular! 

is next season really the last one? 
 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Cramps

[nomodrama]

I think I am the only person in the world that was really hoping that they had brought Santino Fontana on to be Midge's new love interest. I can't believe he is just a side note character, he is SO good looking and talented. 

Sucks that the strip club finally got raided, it seemed to be turning into a really cool joint. Those acts were getting better and better!

I'm not a huge fan of Mei and I was going to be really annoyed if they played it as The Maisel's just magically accepting her and the pregnancy like its no big deal(which it isn't but it was back then....).

Dinah is an amazing secretary, but the kid thing makes it hard to root for Susie keeping her. They aren't even her kids either right? 

I teared up twice thanks to Moishe, once when Midge was talking about him at the club and then when Abe gives the eulogy. He really is a gem, I'm glad that we got to see that he is truly appreciated as he should be. Even Shirley was more palpable thanks to Moishe's dying storyline. 

I love Lenny, Luke Kirby is adorable.....but man, I did not want him and Midge to get together....that road only leads to massive heartbreak. Better start prepping for that now. 

 

[Daff]

42 minutes ago, nomodrama said:

Those acts were getting better and better!

Yes, a very obvious increase in production value with the stage acts. Of course, they’d be raided, with the increased popularity (the audience numbers visibly higher). We’re supposed to believe that Midge was instrumental in all these monumental changes, the impression aided by Boise begging her to make an appearance in spite of a family emergency! But as someone said, above, this was a long slog coming. Watched these last two episodes thinking that this story progression needed to happen much earlier to make it a truly memorable season. 

[Joana]

Well, it's nice that something finally happened on this show, too bad we had to wait for the season finale for it to finally come through. Man, has this season been a drag. 

Miriam is being so childish in her approach to business. While it's commendable that she wants to make it on her own terms, it's simply something that was never going to work IRL and after so much self-sabotage and so many wasted opportunities it's a real miracle anyone would want to deal with her at this point. I imagine Susie must be beyond exhausted with her. I actually kinda hate it that she's probably going to be rewarded for it in the end. 

Moishe and Shirley have been the MVPs of this season for me, some really good stuff there and both characters grew a lot on me.

And what's with the Milo Ventimiglia business? After so much hype, all we get is THAT? It could literally have been any random actor out there and it wouldn't have made a slightest difference.

[CinAZ]

Well, there were a few funny moments. The whole strip club raid was funny.

Susie learned fast that she needs Dinah. 

The club acts were getting good. And the tables, with the candles, nice couples sitting together… like a normal nightclub. 
Rose is awesome. I am so glad she is going forward.

I am not sure how I feel about Lenny and Midge sleeping together. It seemed… anti-climatic. But his talk with her on stage was perfect. 
I wonder how long we will have to wait for the final season. I hope there is more than 10 episodes.

it seems like we were cheated out of this season somehow. I mean, sure we have a season.. but it was a filler season.

[maggiemae]

I love Susie! Her office/home, the chaos, Dinah, line 2, and the 2 pigeons. And her getting a new client.

She is in a good place, hopefully, despite "the mob", while Midge turns down Tony Bennett and ruins the JFK luncheon.

At least Susie realizes that Midge will do it her way....and that she (Susie) will do it her way...Rose and the hypnotist and Susie laughing as Midge and Rose went to get 2 bottles of sherry.

ETA -

Actually Susie got 2 more clients.

Edited March 12, 2022 by maggiemae

[wonderwoman]

42 minutes ago, CinAZ said:

42 minutes ago, CinAZ said:

I am not sure how I feel about Lenny and Midge sleeping together. It seemed… anti-climatic. But his talk with her on stage was perfect. 

 

both predictable and anti-climatic. but that scene between lenny and midge on the carnegie hall stage should be on luke kirby’s emmy real. same with midge’s performance at the strip club.

Edited March 12, 2022 by wonderwoman

[SnarkShark]

I. Don't. Get. The. Point. Of. This. Season.

 

I'm not saying anything was bad.  Most of it wasn't.  But man it didn't go anywhere.   

I don't count Midge sleeping with two men, one of them a doomed drug addict. 

 

Is the point Midge is an idiot?  Didn't we already know she's an idiot?   How's them telling us that again a season arc?   Is Abe forgiving Rose a season arc?  Rose standing up to the Matchmaker mafia?  These are fragments.  

 

I. Don't. Get. It.

 

 

[maggiemae]

OMG - was this the finale? I thought there were 10 episodes.

ETA - yep, the finale.

Sigh

Edited March 12, 2022 by maggiemae

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

I. Don't. Get. The. Point. Of. This. Season.

Just a guess:
The point of this season was to produce enough of a show to get the fans to tune in for the next (final, right?) season, which will be more of what this season would have been without the pandemic.

And:
Next season Midge will either

• take Lenny's advice ("How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice. Practice. Practice.")
• or not, 

and,  Oy,
maybe she'll be pregnant and not know if it's Lenny's or the married guy's.

[quangtran]

10 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

I. Don't. Get. The. Point. Of. This. Season.

I thought it became clear as the season went on that the theme of the season was women.

- It started off with her being angry at all the men, like: Shy, the police who kept sending her to jail, the club owner who banned her for life, people like Eugene who was reveling in her downfall, and those hack comedians.

- This led to her improving conditions at the strip joint and bringing in more women customers.

- This led to her coming in conflict with other working women, like: her mother, the columnist (who she assumed was a man), and rival Sophie

- The season ended with her  doing a set in honor of nurses and womenfolk in general

 

Quote

I am not sure how I feel about Lenny and Midge sleeping together. It seemed… anti-climatic. 

Did it have to be climatic? I'm generally an anti-shipper, and I thought it was written as well as needed. They gave into their attraction for each other, she insisted that he always sees her as a comedian, and they reiterated that he still has problems and that a real romance is not going to happen.

Edited March 12, 2022 by quangtran

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, nomodrama said:

I love Lenny, Luke Kirby is adorable.....but man, I did not want him and Midge to get together....that road only leads to massive heartbreak. Better start prepping for that now. 

Once I heard season five was the end, I breathed a sigh of relief, because this show hasn't been doing massive time jumps. The series is going to end before things get really awful for Lenny. 

3 hours ago, quangtran said:

I'm generally an anti-shipper, and I thought it was written as well as needed. They gave into their attraction for each other, she insisted that he always sees her as a comedian, and they reiterated that he still has problems and that a real romance is not going to happen.

I was happy with it. Lenny got his wish-one night with her before he died. I don't think Lenny ever wanted a real long term romance, just one night. 

Luke Kirby was amazing in this episode. I loved the way he looked at Midge in the hotel room. It made me melt a little. He deserves an Emmy for his moment on stage with her alone. He finally realized that she was idealizing/idolizing him in a way that wasn't good or healthy. He let her have it. He told everything she needed to hear whether she wanted to hear it or not. I just hope she listens and takes his advice. 

3 hours ago, quangtran said:

Did it have to be climatic? 

Maybe people were expecting something more like this (in this scene, someone is slapped-just a warning for people who care about that sort of thing): 

 

[Aulty]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

and,  Oy,

maybe she'll be pregnant and not know if it's Lenny's or the married guy's.

I went there myself too, but those two gentleman encounters weren't so close together that there could be any confusion on the matter.  But on TV that hardly matters.
After all, there are still people out there who think Rory's baby is Jess' even though they were fully clothed in the couple of scenes they had together and the height of romance between the two was Jess giving her soppy look.

[Daff]

Without realizing it, you folks have made a very funny joke and pun regarding Midge and Lenny’s long awaited night. 
Climatic-having to do with climate. 
Climactic-having to do with climax (literary or sexual).  
Don’t shoot me. 

[Aloeonatable]

16 hours ago, nomodrama said:

love Lenny, Luke Kirby is adorable.....but man, I did not want him and Midge to get together....that road only leads to massive heartbreak. Better start prepping for that now. 

Especially since Lenny Bruce dies in 1966 at the age of 40 from a drug overdose. 

He also was married, though, not sure if still married in 1960.

[shapeshifter]

Today's (Sunday, March 12, 2022) NY Times Crossword puzzle had a clue written before this episode dropped:
"Musician who helped save Carnegie Hall from demolition." ¹
Since the NY Times gives permission and actually encourages looking up stuff when solving the crossword, ²
I discovered that Carnegie Hall was supposed to be demolished in 1960, (carnegiehall.org/Explore/Articles/2021/07/13/The-Campaign-to-Save-Carnegie-Hall) which, for those viewers watching this episode–—set in 1960–—who knew that factoid (I did not) the scene in Carnegie Hall between Lenny and Midge would have been an interesting counterpoint to the earlier scene in this episode in which Midge discovers Lenny's (eventually fatal) drugs in his hotel bathroom.  

__________________________________________________________________

1.

 

2. "How to Solve The New York Times Crossword" nytimes.com/guides/crosswords/how-to-solve-a-crossword-puzzle:

Quote

It’s Not Cheating, It’s Learning

Tip: Don’t be afraid to look up answers. You’ll become a better solver for it.

Let me say something that may be controversial, but it needs to be said: It’s O.K. to look something up when solving a crossword. 

Crosswords are ultimately learning tools, whether you’re learning some trivia or an interesting new word or phrase. When you look something up, you’re learning so you’ll know it for next time. 

Of course, some solvers may tell you that looking up the answer to a clue is “cheating,” but to us, that way lies frustration and a path to giving up. And that’s no fun. Crosswords are a game, and games are supposed to be fun. 

Still not sure looking things up is fair? Here is outright permission:

“It’s your puzzle. Solve it any way you like.” — Will Weng, the second crosswords editor of The New York Times (1969 - 1977)

(https://www.nytimes.com/guides/crosswords/how-to-solve-a-crossword-puzzle)

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by shapeshifter

[tennisgurl]

Lenny Bruce for the win! He said everything I’ve wanted to say to Midge all season, but sounding a million times cooler than I would. The true hero of our story! 

[debraran]

16 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Lenny Bruce for the win! He said everything I’ve wanted to say to Midge all season, but sounding a million times cooler than I would. The true hero of our story! 

I didn't want it to end. I loved their scenes, but I hate knowing his end...but it still is a great ride. Their chemistry beats Joel or Ben or the married guy from TIU. ; )  Smouldering. I loved how Rose is starting what will be hopefully some funny "war" scenes next year and Abe's obit was perfect.

I wish the non Jewish girlfriend would have been settled this season but I guess they will have some funny episodes later. I hope she doesn't convert. I know the times were different but I kept feeling there was a "I don't want the baby" angle she wouldn't say. My doc is late 60's now but was one of the first women docs in her area and it was harder when she had a child. No respect except from a few men she stayed friends with. I think that will be an interesting story too even if on sidelines.

I have a love/hate thing with Susie, they make her a little too naive and she is getting more depth but not much. Even the comic relief of her secretary and the guys is getting "old" because the bit is the same.

I loved the corny ending with the sign showing just some letters and the message. I know they cant use Lenny too much but I hope he has a lot more scenes with Midge next season.

 

 

[shapeshifter]

16 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

and,  Oy,
maybe she'll be pregnant and not know if it's Lenny's or the married guy's.

12 hours ago, Aulty said:

I went there myself too, but those two gentleman encounters weren't so close together that there could be any confusion on the matter.

It was way past my bedtime when I was watching, so did I miss the timeframe of the encounter with the married guy? It was told as a flashback, but I can't find the exact date in relation to her hookup with Lenny.
A sperm can live up to 7 days, and an egg 3-5, so that leaves a possible 12 day range for the danger of pregnancy (which is how I thought of it back when I pre-menopausal).
So was there definitely more than 10 days between the married guy and Lenny?
Or are you thinking that doctors could pinpoint day of conception back in 1960? Hah. I don't think so. Back in 1978 the doctors were able to pinpoint the month, but that was it.

[debraran]

I don't think the writers or actress want Midge pregnant...even she couldn't do pregnancy clothes justice back then. ; ) She needs to do her act, wouldn't work. But I did wonder when sleeping around, are condoms used but not shown of course ? Not too much back then compared to now.

Both guys she slept with would be tragic for different reasons with pregnancy, but Lenny most of all. If they have him die in the show, Midge will be devastated as most of the fans but I hope they don't. Time will tell. 

 

[SnarkShark]

If they had three more seasons they might have Midge's career get derailed with pregnancy.  Lord knows they love derailing her career as a plot development.   But with what I'm assuming are ten more episodes, seven or so with nothing important happening in them, they just don't have time. 

Clearly Season 5A is Midge scheming to get on that show.  It's taking the role/importance of The Tonight Show.  Perhaps 5B is her dealing with actual wide success.  

[Sarah 103]

9 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

Especially since Lenny Bruce dies in 1966 at the age of 40 from a drug overdose. 

He also was married, though, not sure if still married in 1960.

I don't think he was married in 1960. He talks about his divorce, not his second wife. So at this point in 1960 he is divorced and single. 

2 hours ago, debraran said:

I didn't want it to end. I loved their scenes, but I hate knowing his end...but it still is a great ride. Their chemistry beats Joel or Ben or the married guy from TIU. ; )  Smouldering. 

Smoldering is an excellent word for Lenny and Midge, especially the way he looks at her. The problem is Lenny and Midge have chemistry, but a relationship wouldn't work. Lenny knows that.  

[CharethCutestory]

Everything Lenny said to Midge was spot on and what she desperately needed to hear. Yes, she has an ego, and her life experience, as it will for anyone, has shaped how she sees the world and herself in it. But as Lenny said, one thing she's not is dumb. She was making excuses and hiding. I think when he finally starts getting through to her is when she denies hiding and he says, "You sure as fuck are hiding!" Lenny isn't the one who is going to be appeased by her canned rationalizations that work on everyone else around her who are only half focused on Midge's problem at the moment. Her parents have questions and concerns but are in their own world starting up new careers themselves, Susie is completely frustrated by Midge but its blunted now that she's growing her clients and building her business. Joel is rapidly developing his own life with Mei, now with a baby on the way. Lenny, however infrequently he appears in her life, when he is there, is squarely focused on Midge, he knows what she's going through as a comic, is in awe of her talent, and he's in love with her. He's the perfect person to shake her out of her funk.

The Shy situation, Sophie, Joel, everything caught up with Midge and turned her gun shy this season. She became afraid to succeed and was making excuses. She was backsliding and telling herself and others it was what she wanted. It's totally natural to get scared and self sabotage thinking you're protecting yourself from future hurt, even for a person as confident as Midge. She knows she's not ready to be a main act, she needs to work and open for people first and hone her craft but her fear and her ego got in the way. There's a reason the Shy situation happened last season and even the Jackie Kennedy one in the finale. She's got the talent but still has lots to learn and she only learns through trial and error and lots of it, paying her dues. Lenny tells her, "don't plan, work." Midge being so stalled out this season seemed like lack of development and filler, but I do  think it was  necessary. Her rut was not for nothing. She's going to learn from it and it will ultimately propel her forward. "GO FORWARD" is how it ends after all, with the Gordon Ford billboard. 

Lenny knows her too well and loves her too much to let her get away with it. In addition to being her best friend in that moment, he proved just what a stand up person he is. She asked him not to forget she was funny and he didn't. "First and foremost" he told her and he meant it. He wasn't worried about if she would want to be with him romantically or about how they would interact together from now on. I got worried for a moment when he was standing there clearly angry with Midge, that he was going to say something cliche like, "You haven't returned any of my calls." But that was a silly fear and that's not what type of show this is, thank goodness. Lenny was just solely focused on her and how she was hurting herself and wasting her talent, that's true love on a deep level. It's selfless. ASP nailed the dialogue and no surprise Luke Kirby nailed the delivery of it. It perfectly captured who they are as individual people, as comics, who they are to each other and the totally unique relationship they share.

[AuntieMame]

You weren’t the only one who melted with Lenny and Midge in the blue hotel room @Sarah 103. It made me remember what a primal attraction is like. I will definitely be looking for Luke Kirby’s other work. Not only did he look at her with the perfect look of desire, he proved his love for her as a person by calling her out on her professional cowardice. And that her purposeful failure would break his heart. I always lived Lenny and Midge as colleagues and friends but the bittersweet of a love that can never be has awakened my heart. 

I liked some of Susie’s growth this season and wish we’d seen more of it and more of Susie and Midge the odd couple. They were the central relationship of the show and I missed that. Even with Susie trying to grow and Midge temporarily  punting, the conflict of that could have been explored.

The Mei thing would have been a much bigger deal than portrayed. Unplanned pregnancy was catastrophic for most women for most of history. It still can be, even in American society. Joel is standing by her so that’s a help but it’s still an issue and so is the fact that Mei isn’t Jewish. I wish we’d seen her parents reaction too. Traditional Chinese society is pretty conservative too and a premarital pregnancy even with the man willing to marry wouldn’t exactly be a laugh riot. I know this is a comedy, but this entire storyline is just so anachronistic and written with the changes of the last twenty years assumed. 
I did love Mei’s surprise and horror when she realized that she was taking on Midge’s kids and Midge and the entire circus act that is the extended family. Mei didn’t really think this through it seems. 
I would love to see Midge take Lenny’s advice and start taking herself seriously. I loved the little meta nod to Lenny’s tragic end. It made me sad but I loved it. 
 

[chessiegal]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

Not too much back then compared to now.

Really? I remember my mother complaining about our female neighbor who felt compelled to reveal details of her sex life, including her husband and brother-in-law buying condoms by the gross. And that was in the 60s.

[SFoster21]

2 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

Really? I remember my mother complaining about our female neighbor who felt compelled to reveal details of her sex life, including her husband and brother-in-law buying condoms by the gross. And that was in the 60s.

There was no Pill!  So there were condoms!! But you had to ask for them.  They weren’t on the counter.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, SFoster21 said:

There was no Pill!  

My recollection was the Pill was in use as early as the late 50s.  It wasn't yet available to everyone, but it was in use. 

[SnarkShark]

53 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

My recollection was the Pill was in use as early as the late 50s.  It wasn't yet available to everyone, but it was in use. 

A medical student stood a decent chance of being able to find it.  

[Aulty]

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

It was way past my bedtime when I was watching, so did I miss the timeframe of the encounter with the married guy? It was told as a flashback, but I can't find the exact date in relation to her hookup with Lenny.

I was initially going by still very leafy park vs. the snow storm in late October (all the Halloween references) and thought that there were at least a couple of months between the two encounters. But there actually is a temporal reference in the episode: At the Jacky Kennedy gig she mentions the hookup was 'a couple of weeks ago'.  Plus at a couple of days for the Moishe drama, assuming it was right after, should put at least create a 15 day gap. Hah. 😉

Edited March 13, 2022 by Aulty

[debraran]

Birth control is never talked about on TV or rarely but in 60's high dose pills were out. Many couldn't get it or had side effects.

It wasn’t until 1965 that the law banning birth control was struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court.his case, however, Griswold v. Connecticut, applied only to married couples. Millions of unmarried women were still denied the pill. Finally, in 1972, the Supreme Court case Baird v. Eisenstadt legalized birth control for everyone, notes Our Bodies Ourselves.Manufacturers worked hard in the 1980s to improve the pill, offering women new dosages, new progestins, and multiphasic pills. Most birth control was condoms but not readily available (except in army etc) for most. It might have varied where you live but I remember guys in the 70's having older brother etc ask pharmacist for them and not having self check out was always fraught with some embarrassment.

I just find it odd the women on TV never seem to care about the consequences. You either ended up in marriages you might not want or having an illegal abortion which could kill you.

Edited March 13, 2022 by debraran

[AuntieMame]

20 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Really? I remember my mother complaining about our female neighbor who felt compelled to reveal details of her sex life, including her husband and brother-in-law buying condoms by the gross. And that was in the 60s.

Yes people were still sexual beings and as such could still be guilty of sexual TMI. I remember a great aunt (born in 1918) once telling me that people had sex but didn’t talk about it as much. But she also stressed, stressed how catastrophic unplanned pregnancy was and how easy it was for a woman’s life to be ruined not only with pregnancy but with a few well chosen words.

It floors me that the very short time that this hasn’t been as true leads people to say it was never true. The social deaths/criticisms for women are still the same: You’re a slut. You’re a bad mother/you’re selfish or you’re fat/ugly. Still the ways women are judged. Still the way women are hurt individually and socially. Still the ways women are controlled. How different is it really if a woman is having her labia surgically altered to look like a porn star’s or having her feet bound? 

Therefore I don’t think that Mei as a medical student would have had an easier time finding the Pill, a highly experimental drug not yet fully approved, considered scandalous and at the time very dangerous. Early formulations of the pill gave women blood clots and strokes and several other life threatening side effects. At this time, birth control was only prescribed to married women and even then the woman and her motives were scrutinized with the prescribing physician deciding whether her reasons were good enough. Had she provided “enough” children”? Did her husband agree to the use of birth control? 

Mei as a single medical student would have been held to an even higher standard as one of the few women with a seat in a medical school. Add second generation immigrant to that and Asian and she gets even more scrutiny. What is she supposed to do? Ask one of her professors? A random attending physician if she’s far enough along in medical school to be doing her clinical clerkships in the hospital? And why would some random professor or doctor have access to a controversial drug that didn’t have full approval or wide distribution? Because in 1960 people went out of their way to make sure that single women had a consequence free sex life? That hasn’t even been true in my lifetime.

For that matter, a pregnancy is the kind of thing that would get a woman thrown out of medical school. Even if the guy was willing to marry her as Joel is. Then the comments would all be about how admitting Mei and other women to medical school was a waste because they would just get pregnant/married anyway so admitting women was a waste of a seat that could go to a man. Things were very different and even now the veneer is very thin.
Look at the recent hullabaloo about the fact that when it’s based on grades and test scores and quality of the candidates women are filling more than 50% of med school seats. Even when all indicators of sex are stripped from applications. 

Japan has had a scandal because they inflated men’s scores and deflated women’s scores and still can’t get enough male candidates. 
Mei is an incredibly annoying character and I don’t think she’s been written so much as caricatured  but her pregnancy is a disaster for her entire life. Her medical school career is over. She would be quietly expelled/dismissed. Nor were there any laws to protect her against pregnancy discrimination. If she wants to be a doctor she has to find an abortionist. 

Good grief even Midge’s divorce would be shocking in the actual time period depicted. Yes there were ambitious trailblazers but this isn’t easy. I suspend disbelief because it’s a television show but the idea that Midge could easily be a comedienne at all much less doing it “her own way” is ridiculous. Trailblazing women generally have to be singleminded and obsessed. In reality Midge would have to do as Lenny said and work wherever she had the chance. Midge would also have to avoid getting a reputation for being difficult. 

Mei wouldn’t be dating Joel because she would have her hands full with 8 to 12 hours a day of classroom and hospital time not including study time or her clearly heavy responsibilities to her family. This is a fantasy confection of the late fifties and sixties seen through our current lens. Who after all wants to watch an obsessed woman work like a coolie to achieve her goals? But please don’t mistake it for reality in terms of birth control or women’s available life options. 

I loved Abe’s eulogy to Moishe. It was lovely and heartfelt and Moishe thanking Abe was wonderful too. I’m hoping that Moishe and Abe become closer and it’s to Abe’s credit that he finally noticed. 

I agree with others here that the show’s shortcomings of character and story really show this season. Too bad because there are so many fantastic elements  and rich material to mine. All wasted and this dramedy is ultimately neither. A cheap Easter basket of a show filled with beckoning colors and chemical candy. 
 

Edited March 13, 2022 by AuntieMame
Typos and Tightening

[wendyg]

I feel it is very important to note that the bagels in this episode were entirely anachronistic. Bagels at that time in NYC were smaller, denser, and altogether more like BAGELS.

[whiporee]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:52 AM, Sarah 103 said:

Maybe people were expecting something more like this (in this scene, someone is slapped-just a warning for people who care about that sort of thing): 

God, when that show was on it was ON. 

[Clanstarling]

 

On 3/12/2022 at 12:52 AM, Sarah 103 said:

Once I heard season five was the end, I breathed a sigh of relief, because this show hasn't been doing massive time jumps. The series is going to end before things get really awful for Lenny. 

I was happy with it. Lenny got his wish-one night with her before he died. I don't think Lenny ever wanted a real long term romance, just one night. 

Luke Kirby was amazing in this episode. I loved the way he looked at Midge in the hotel room. It made me melt a little. He deserves an Emmy for his moment on stage with her alone. He finally realized that she was idealizing/idolizing him in a way that wasn't good or healthy. He let her have it. He told everything she needed to hear whether she wanted to hear it or not. I just hope she listens and takes his advice.

That final scene with him was everything. This season there were , for me, only three memorable scenes - Susie's funeral scene, Abe and Moishe in this episode, and Lenny's scene. I thought it was in general a meh season. Everything blends together and we nearly stopped watching the show entirely.

I think hearing that coming from Lenny will indeed have impact on Midge. For a while, I thought Carnegie Hall was going to go in a different direction - particularly when Lenny was talking about the kinds of women he liked to hang around - and Midge fit it to a T. I thought maybe there would be a line she would take personally and understand how some of her own targets felt.

But of course, it was much better than that.  Midge's turn down of Bennett also hurt Lenny's rep, since he pushed so hard for her.

As for Mei, I think it finally sunk in that she'd have to actively be involved with Joel's "other" life - with the kids and the parents. And that her child wasn't just hers - but a brother or sister to Joel's kids as well. I'm not sure what's in store for her. I wasn't fond of the Palladino's take on pregnancy in GG, and hope she's not setting up Mei to be a different version of Rory.

Or for that matter, to make Midge the Rory.

 

[iMonrey]

I thought the season was just fine. I don't really need it to "go" anywhere - it delivers the snappy dialogue and the comedy I'm looking for in every episode. Susie is always MVP for me.

When Midge found pills (?) in Lenny's bathroom, was that meant to me a reference to his drug addiction? What kind of drugs was he addicted to?

Quote

Sucks that the strip club finally got raided, it seemed to be turning into a really cool joint. Those acts were getting better and better!

I don't get how this works. If the club is illegal how is it managing to get by for so long before finally getting raided? 

Also, I get that we're meant to think Midge classed up the joint, hence the over-produced stage acts, but honestly. They were really getting to be over-the-top towards the end there with the sets and props and special effects. I don't see how anyone associated with that club could have pulled something like that off.

I also agree Santino Fontana was criminally underused. I guess he needed the paycheck.

Edited March 13, 2022 by iMonrey

[reallyjustjen]

I loved the “older generation” this episode.  Abe has been grating this season, but the obituary and his efforts to get it published in the NYT really redeemed him IMO.   Also happy that Rose decided not to back down and give up matchmaking, and that Abe ultimately supported her in it.  And Moishe and Shirley, for all their loudness and brashness, love their family and would do anything for them—and this ep reinforced that they’re all still family, despite Joel and Midge no longer being married. 
 

As for Mei, I couldn’t tell whether her reactions to  Midge were panic at the dawning realization of what she was getting herself into, or awkwardness because she has zero intention of stepping into the traditional wife/stepmom role.  
 

Agree that Lenny’s speech was a season highlight, and that LK did a brilliant job.  I wasn’t disappointed that Lenny and Midge hooked up, but did think it was a bit anti-climactic, especially compared to their absolute fire scenes in Miami last season (that Loco Amor scene—in the immortal words of Uncle Jesse, have mercy!)

[chessiegal]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

When Midge found pills (?) in Lenny's bathroom, was that meant to me a reference to his drug addiction? What kind of drugs was he addicted to?

It wasn't pills. It was a vial of liquid and a vial with a syringe. I assume it was heroin which he was known to use.

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, whiporee said:

God, when that show was on it was ON. 

I KNOW! The heat, the intensity, the way David looked at Maddie until that moment. Major smoldering. (I realize this is about Moonlighting and off topic. Apologies for that). 

1 hour ago, reallyjustjen said:

As for Mei, I couldn’t tell whether her reactions to  Midge were panic at the dawning realization of what she was getting herself into, or awkwardness because she has zero intention of stepping into the traditional wife/stepmom role.  

Agree that Lenny’s speech was a season highlight, and that LK did a brilliant job.  I wasn’t disappointed that Lenny and Midge hooked up, but did think it was a bit anti-climactic, especially compared to their absolute fire scenes in Miami last season (that Loco Amor scene—in the immortal words of Uncle Jesse, have mercy!)

I had a different take on Mei in that scene. I agree with you that has zero intention of becoming a wife and stepmother. I think she has no idea how to tell them she is going to have an abortion. It would be illegal, but based on all of her medical connections, it would be as safe as possible under the circumstances. 

Between those scenes in Miami and the scenes in the hotel room, nothing was going to live up to expectations.