S06.E07: Taboo

[phalange]

Mandy Moore killed it, as always. I hope this episode gets submitted when it's time for Emmy noms.

Beth was hilarious, sipping her wine while saying "every year with this family" and then confiscating Randall's phone. Even college-age Beth in the flashback looked like she'd already had enough of the Pearson drama. College-age Kevin and Randall were especially douchey this episode, Randall with his staring at Kate and Kevin with his comments to Miguel, and the two of them just sitting on the couch chatting while Kate and Beth set the table. 

Rebecca and Miguel were sweet while playing Taboo, but man that must have been uncomfortable for their poor dates. I felt so bad for Rebecca when she cried over Miguel moving, but it was nice to see Kate comforting her and also Kate telling Randall he can't fix everything all the time. 

Rebecca made the right choice picking Kate as a back-up to Miguel regarding her medical decisions. Kevin is all over the place right now and Randall, well, we saw what happened when he tried to get her into that trial. I love when Rebecca told Kate "it's always been you" and then whispered the secret ingredient just like her mother did to her.

Kate and Toby are having a communication break-down and both have different ideas about how to care for the kids, but I'm team Kate here. The plate she gave Jack was balanced and a tiny bite of marshmallows on Thanksgiving is not going to hurt him. If Toby had a problem with the food he should've taken it up with Kate after dinner. Also, as a 90s kid, I can confirm that She's All That and Kiss Me are, in fact, iconic. 

[debraran]

3 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

True, but let’s face it, they’re all pretty much a mess. Randall would probably have a panic attack if his shoe came untied. Kevin gets distracted by shiny objects, and also tends to run at the first sign of trouble. I think I’d choose Beth. Maybe Madison. But I guess Rebecca is kind of maternally required to pick one of her dumpster fire kids, and of the three Kate is probably the most stable. (Again, it’s a low bar.)

It made me laugh when Rebecca was talking about wanting them to keep it together after she’s gone. Like, have you met these people? They haven’t even gotten past Jack’s death from 20 years ago. I suspect Rebecca’s passing will be the final straw that leaves them all huddled in a corner, shivering like wet puppies.

 

You could only hope Miguel stays well but we know that probably wont happen. He deserves to live until the end, but he will be discarded so they can hyper focus on Jack. I feel bad Miguel knowing he was not wanted by the kids,left. That's why in later episode when Kevin went to live with Miguel and Rebecca when recovering from drinking. Miguel and Rebecca were watching Tiny House show and sitting close, laughing, Kevin comes in and they (at their age) moved apart a bit. He said "you don't have to do that, I'm ok" I was like "What??" I was so miffed they even did it but that he had to say to his parent, it's ok,was unseemly. They are married and way beyond thinking twice about cuddling. Geez, still ticks me off he is such a baby. When will he grow up? Does he need Sophie to say enough of this behavior. He grew with Nicky and then regressed.

[Haleth]

Mandy was fantastic this episode.  Her talk with the family was so well acted.  Heartbreaking.  Ugh, I know so many people dealing with the anguish of this terrible disease, it makes sense to set out a plan while everyone is there to listen.

Toby and Kate both had good points but honestly, their bickering has nothing to do with food.  That is not why they are both so pent up with resentment.

I don't know why this family has such nostalgia for Thanksgivings.  Every one we've seen has been a disaster.  And sugar cream pie is disgusting.  Lard on a plate. 🤮

Edited March 9, 2022 by Haleth

[greekmom]

One other interesting aspect is the food issues that all three women had/have (Rebecca's mom, Rebecca and Kate).

Rebecca's mother barely eats which she tried to pass that philosophy down to Rebecca.  Rebecca being thin but still overloading on the sweet potatoes due to her mother's comments.  Lastly young Kate overloading on the sweet potatoes due to the way Randall was acting at her weight gain.  

Kate at least is trying to break the cycle with Jack by trying to make smart food choices for him and the occasional treats.

I wonder if Rebecca's mother was overweight and then lost it all and kept it off as she restricted her eating.

[nexxie]

Isn’t the secret ingredient always LOVE?

[Jillybean]

46 minutes ago, nexxie said:

Isn’t the secret ingredient always LOVE?

This was my assumption as well.

[A.Ham]

9 hours ago, camom said:

I hope Rebecca is putting her wishes in writing (power of attorney), otherwise Randall and Kevin will try to fight Miguel or Kate on decisions about her care.

Beat me to it. Clear as day as she was, I wouldn’t put it past either Kevin or Randall to try and steamroll as things get tougher. She needs to have all her preferences stated with power of attorney and advance directives. 

[Ohiopirate02]

58 minutes ago, nexxie said:

Isn’t the secret ingredient always LOVE?

Rebecca's mom is too much of a WASP for it to be love.  The secret ingredient is something that plays well with vanilla extract and cinnamon (Google tells me those are the known flavors in sugar pie).

[bluegirl147]

10 hours ago, BuckeyeLou said:

I think Randall & Kevin were very surprised that Rebecca chose Kate to be the one to care for her, if Miguel would pre-decease her.

I think we were all surprised.

[kili]

Quote

Rebecca's mom is too much of a WASP for it to be love.  The secret ingredient is something that plays well with vanilla extract and cinnamon (Google tells me those are the known flavors in sugar pie).

I don't really get having secret ingredients. If somebody says "That pie is delicious! Can I get the recipe?", what kind of psychopath gives them a partial recipe? Unless you are in the business of selling sugar pie, what does it hurt to give out the actual recipe? You could say "no", but even that is a little strange after receiving the compliment. But, at least it's honest. Leaving out ingredients leaves the poor recipient wondering why it doesn't taste right and endlessly trying to figure out what is wrong. Why are you inviting people to dinner who you dislike enough to do this to?

I guess you get to lord it over your friends and family that you are the bestest cook and you do you if you need that constant ego boost.

But who does that to their actual child? Isn't that something you pass on to them as a teen and swear them to secrecy? It stops being a fun guessing game ("guess the secret flavour") when you start hosting your own dinner and you are missing the key ingredient to the traditional dessert. I wouldn't be bothering with the traditional dessert if my parent wouldn't cough up the missing secret ingredient. Why even bother if it's going to be a second-rate dessert without the secret ingredient? I'd cook something I have a full recipe for so everybody can have a decent tasting dessert and Mom can go  play her head games somewhere else. 

And what is this garbage of just passing it onto your daughter? Maybe Baby Jack wants to cook some traditional sugar pie. 

In "Pilgrim Rick", Rebecca mentions that her sister's sweet potato pie will be perfect. I saw no evidence of a sister at her family Thanksgiving and no mention of her at the first Pearson Thanksgiving. 

Rebecca should have sent Beth to confiscate the guitar as well.

Hints of something dire in Boston if Malik stopped texting? Or did he just leave his phone at the library?

 

 

[txhorns79]

7 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I think we were all surprised.

After Randall and Kevin's relationship meltdown over whether Rebecca should try out the study in St. Louis showed how neither could handle the responsibility, I think Kate was really the only choice. 

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I think we were all surprised.

I wasn't.  Rebecca knows that her boys are always jockeying to be the "man" of the family and this is a situation where things get ugly.  Choosing either Kevin or Randall would make them uglier.  Kate is the safe choice because both of them respect Kate and they trust her to do what is right even if it hurts.  Rebecca does not want her boys fighting over her care.

[JudyObscure]

9 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I will admit that I saw the plate and thought Kate gave Jack more marshmallow than sweet potato on that bite.  I wasn’t bothered that Toby scraped it off; you don’t miss what you haven’t tasted.  I am tired of Kate and Toby and their woes, though, and telling me she’s upset that he doesn’t shop with them when he has offered to go on the weekends and she refused doesn’t make me Team Kate.

I agree, we've always treated sweet potatoes the same as white ones, sometimes mashed with milk and butter, sometimes baked, served with butter and sour cream.  We never had soft drinks in the house and my son never learned to like them. Jack wont start thinking holidays are all about sugar if no one teaches him that, and he wont ever feel shamed because certain foods didn't show up at the family table, if it's the same food for everyone.  If you serve turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing, green beans, and fruit salad isn't it still Thanksgiving?

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, kili said:

I don't really get having secret ingredients. If somebody says "That pie is delicious! Can I get the recipe?", what kind of psychopath gives them a partial recipe? Unless you are in the business of selling sugar pie, what does it hurt to give out the actual recipe? You could say "no", but even that is a little strange after receiving the compliment. But, at least it's honest. Leaving out ingredients leaves the poor recipient wondering why it doesn't taste right and endlessly trying to figure out what is wrong. Why are you inviting people to dinner who you dislike enough to do this to?

I guess you get to lord it over your friends and family that you are the bestest cook and you do you if you need that constant ego boost.

But who does that to their actual child? Isn't that something you pass on to them as a teen and swear them to secrecy? It stops being a fun guessing game ("guess the secret flavour") when you start hosting your own dinner and you are missing the key ingredient to the traditional dessert. I wouldn't be bothering with the traditional dessert if my parent wouldn't cough up the missing secret ingredient. Why even bother if it's going to be a second-rate dessert without the secret ingredient? I'd cook something I have a full recipe for so everybody can have a decent tasting dessert and Mom can go  play her head games somewhere else. 

 

 

My mom has a secret ingredient that she adds to her stuffed cabbage, and she does not give it out.  It's an ingredient that pairs well with the tomato to elevate the flavors, but the dish works without.  I have known the secret ingredient for years now after eating other, lesser golumpki.  I have also watched her make her pierogi so that recipe will carry on after her death.  You always tell your kids your secret ingredients. 

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, nexxie said:

Isn’t the secret ingredient always LOVE?

And here, I thought it was nutmeg.

[PepSinger]

25 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Jack wont start thinking holidays are all about sugar if no one teaches him that, and he wont ever feel shamed because certain foods didn't show up at the family table, if it's the same food for everyone.  If you serve turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing, green beans, and fruit salad isn't it still Thanksgiving?

He is what, 2? Some marshmallows at a holiday that occurs once a year isn’t going to hurt him. Also, there was nothing to indicate he’ll start thinking holidays are “all about sugar,” and if he does, so what? Holidays are a time to treat and indulge yourself. Eating sugar at a holiday dinner isn’t the reason people become overweight or obese; it’s consuming unhealthy amounts on a regular basis. I appreciate Toby’s thinking, but he’s going to lead Jack straight to disordered eating if he keeps that up. What’s next? He’s not allowed to go trick-or-treating because God forbid there will be candy?

[CountryGirl]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Kevin obviously didn't inherit Rebecca's musicality. He was so obnoxious with his guitar.

I thought Rebecca's comments about Marguerite - "with such a strong accent, I thought she'd be more worldly" - were uncharacteristically catty for her.

It was definitely catty, but I think that's the moment Rebecca knew her feelings for Miguel had crossed over from friendship to something more. And if she had any doubts, when he told her his Houston news, well, that clinched it.

It reminds me of how I realized I cared for my husband as more than a friend. We met in lawschool and were good friends but dated others until shortly before graduation. A mutual friend was wanting to set him up with a friend of hers and had a blow-off-steam party where this friend was and she was clearly quite interested and flirting and my reaction was "Back off, hussy!"

And that's when it clicked.

Love really is sometimes friendship that catches fire. 

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

He is what, 2? Some marshmallows at a holiday that occurs once a year isn’t going to hurt him. Also, there was nothing to indicate he’ll start thinking holidays are “all about sugar,” and if he does, so what? Holidays are a time to treat and indulge yourself. Eating sugar at a holiday dinner isn’t the reason people become overweight or obese; it’s consuming unhealthy amounts on a regular basis. I appreciate Toby’s thinking, but he’s going to lead Jack straight to disordered eating if he keeps that up. What’s next? He’s not allowed to go trick-or-treating because God forbid there will be candy?

 I also wonder what Toby is going to do if Jack is the type of toddler who will only eat chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc. or one who requires copious amounts of ketchup with every dinner.  Kids go through phases where they are extremely picky eaters, how will Toby react to that? Will he force Jack to eat the food in front of him, or acquiesce because it's only a phase?   

[ItCouldBeWorse]

5 hours ago, phalange said:

College-age Kevin and Randall were especially douchey this episode, Randall with his staring at Kate and Kevin with his comments to Miguel, and the two of them just sitting on the couch chatting while Kate and Beth set the table. 

Yes!  Kevin was busy drinking and feeling sorry for himself, but Randall should not be letting Beth do his chores.  That would normally be a good indication of what she would expect once they are married.

I think that Randall was really surprised when he saw Kate, and then he started worrying about her, and we know that he's not good at hiding his worrying.

1 hour ago, kili said:

In "Pilgrim Rick", Rebecca mentions that her sister's sweet potato pie will be perfect. I saw no evidence of a sister at her family Thanksgiving and no mention of her at the first Pearson Thanksgiving. 

In retrospect, the writers might wish that they could retcon Rebecca as an only child, because that is how they have treated her.

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree, we've always treated sweet potatoes the same as white ones, sometimes mashed with milk and butter, sometimes baked, served with butter and sour cream.  We never had soft drinks in the house and my son never learned to like them. Jack wont start thinking holidays are all about sugar if no one teaches him that, and he wont ever feel shamed because certain foods didn't show up at the family table, if it's the same food for everyone.  If you serve turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing, green beans, and fruit salad isn't it still Thanksgiving?

Candied sweet potatoes/yams are a Thanksgiving tradition for many people.  No one gets fat because they have a serving of sugary pie or candied potatoes once a year.  Some people might say that potatoes loaded with butter and sour cream might create a  preference for fatty mashed potatoes all year round.

Edited March 9, 2022 by ItCouldBeWorse

[CdrJanny]

8 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

He is what, 2? Some marshmallows at a holiday that occurs once a year isn’t going to hurt him. Also, there was nothing to indicate he’ll start thinking holidays are “all about sugar,” and if he does, so what? Holidays are a time to treat and indulge yourself. Eating sugar at a holiday dinner isn’t the reason people become overweight or obese; it’s consuming unhealthy amounts on a regular basis. I appreciate Toby’s thinking, but he’s going to lead Jack straight to disordered eating if he keeps that up. What’s next? He’s not allowed to go trick-or-treating because God forbid there will be candy?

 

8 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

He is what, 2? Some marshmallows at a holiday that occurs once a year isn’t going to hurt him.  Holidays are a time to treat and indulge yourself. Eating sugar at a holiday dinner isn’t the reason people become overweight or obese; it’s consuming unhealthy amounts on a regular basis.

And just when do you think obese children eat sugary, fatty food, if not at holidays?  Adults are able to choose  "to treat and indulge themselves", toddlers not at all.  As someone who has been fat and even obese for all of my 68 years (except for the 22 years I was in the Navy), I agree 100% with Toby.  I was glad he scraped off the marshmallow; it was unnecessary and added absolutely nothing to the sweet potatoes.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

21 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

50 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Jack wont start thinking holidays are all about sugar if no one teaches him that, and he wont ever feel shamed because certain foods didn't show up at the family table, if it's the same food for everyone.  If you serve turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing, green beans, and fruit salad isn't it still Thanksgiving?

He is what, 2? Some marshmallows at a holiday that occurs once a year isn’t going to hurt him. Also, there was nothing to indicate he’ll start thinking holidays are “all about sugar,” and if he does, so what? Holidays are a time to treat and indulge yourself. Eating sugar at a holiday dinner isn’t the reason people become overweight or obese; it’s consuming unhealthy amounts on a regular basis. I appreciate Toby’s thinking, but he’s going to lead Jack straight to disordered eating if he keeps that up. What’s next? He’s not allowed to go trick-or-treating because God forbid there will be candy?

Completely agree.

Every kid I knew who was completely denied junk food at home would go crazy at parties and play dates.  The best way to prevent that is to have limited access at certain special times, such as holidays and birthdays.  Even a treat every weekend is not going to make a child overweight if the rest of the diet is healthy.

Edited March 9, 2022 by ItCouldBeWorse

[CdrJanny]

7 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 I also wonder what Toby is going to do if Jack is the type of toddler who will only eat chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc. or one who requires copious amounts of ketchup with every dinner.  Kids go through phases where they are extremely picky eaters, how will Toby react to that? Will he force Jack to eat the food in front of him, or acquiesce because it's only a phase?   

Toby can do what I did with my picky eater: tell him that their house was not a diner and Kate and Toby are not short-order cooks. 

BTW, my son's pediatrician told me to do that.  If my son got hungry enough, he would eat what I prepared for him 

[kili]

Quote

I appreciate Toby’s thinking, but he’s going to lead Jack straight to disordered eating if he keeps that up. What’s next? He’s not allowed to go trick-or-treating because God forbid there will be candy?

Note that all the arguments were about Jack and his genetics? There was no debate about what Hailey was eating. This could end up like the Kate vs Randall/Kevin situation where Jack ends up getting an unhealthy relationship with food.

We know Jack ends up stick thin despite cooking enormous slabs of meat to eat so he does end up healthy so somebody's strategy worked.

I did appreciate Kate's speech in how she has put a lot of thought into food and building a healthy relationship for her kids with food. While Toby is concerned about Jack, I'm not sure he's putting much more thought into it than "sugar bad". That "something bad" works with some kids and other kids over-indulge the forbidden fruit behind their parent's back. Everything in moderation is probably a better lesson to learn and that is what Kate is aiming for. Food is just food - it isn't love or an object of defiance or a forbidden fruit.

[AzraeltheCat]

5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

10 hours ago, phalange said:

College-age Kevin and Randall were especially douchey this episode, Randall with his staring at Kate and Kevin with his comments to Miguel, and the two of them just sitting on the couch chatting while Kate and Beth set the table. 

Yes!  Kevin was busy drinking and feeling sorry for himself, but Randall should not be letting Beth do his chores.  That would normally be a good indication of what she would expect once they are married.

ehh, Beth could've said something to him about helping [or Rebecca could've for that matter], but if I'm a guest in someone's home (as Beth was), I always help set or clear the table etc. I'm not trying to do someone else's chores, just being a polite and gracious guest.  Seems like adult Randall has always been helpful in the kitchen.

I have mixed feelings about Toby and Kate and their thoughts about the foods Jack eats, but geez! Can't these people [all of the Pearsons actually, in any time period] just act cool and talk about later, in private so as not to make everyone uncomfortable as hell? Also, I thought it was supes awkward for Rebecca to make that announcement, right before dinner, about needing to have "a Talk" later.  And she indicated it would only be Miguel and the Big 3, but said it  in front of everybody.  So now, everyone has to eat dinner wondering what the hell is going on.  

Edited March 9, 2022 by AzraeltheCat

[cardigirl]

10 hours ago, Evie said:

Rebecca stating her wishes was a good scene. I think Kate's going to have to make the hard decisions in the future.

That's why Kate is the last to arrive in the flashback from last year?  Or maybe something else, but I thought it was interesting the show set Kate up to be the end of life proxy for Rebecca. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

That's why Kate is the last to arrive in the flashback from last year?  Or maybe something else, but I thought it was interesting the show set Kate up to be the end of life proxy for Rebecca. 

Since we have also not seen Jack or Hailey in the flashforward, I assume Kate is picking them and Philip up from the airport.  When Randall asks Toby where Jack is, Toby's reply is something like "they are on their way."  Jack is a blind eleven or twelve year old in that scene and Hailey is ten, so neither one is driving.  At this point, everyone but Kate and Miguel are accounted for.  

[Jillybean]

9 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

That's why Kate is the last to arrive in the flashback from last year?  Or maybe something else, but I thought it was interesting the show set Kate up to be the end of life proxy for Rebecca. 

It's interesting that neither Miguel nor Kate have been present thus far in the flash-forward. We don't know whether either is still alive. I think the anvil of Miguel being gone is pretty clear, though. 

2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Since we have also not seen Jack or Hailey in the flashforward, I assume Kate is picking them and Philip up from the airport.  When Randall asks Toby where Jack is, Toby's reply is something like "they are on their way."  Jack is a blind eleven or twelve year old in that scene and Hailey is ten, so neither one is driving.  At this point, everyone but Kate and Miguel are accounted for.  

And Philip Mean Jerk. Surely if the ex-husband is invited, the new/most recent/current one is, too.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Jillybean

[Sake614]

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

I think we were all surprised.

Not me. I knew she’d choose Kate. As others have said, Kevin and Randall fought horribly over her care in the beginning and Rebecca knew it. They didn’t speak for over a year because of it. She didn’t want that happening again. And mothers/daughters are traditionally closer than mothers/sons. I’m my mom’s health care proxy. My brother is the executor of her estate, which is fine. Although there won’t be any argument about who gets what (I’ve told her to spend my inheritance because that way I know she’s still here). We’re not a perfect family and while there might be angst and disagreement, in the end, we’ll all do what’s right for her.

[PepSinger]

44 minutes ago, CdrJanny said:

And just when do you think obese children eat sugary, fatty food, if not at holidays?

Year round, 365 days a year, not two or three holidays a year.

45 minutes ago, CdrJanny said:

Adults are able to choose  "to treat and indulge themselves", toddlers not at all.

Well, that’s why adults are in charge. They can put the food away from the toddler.

41 minutes ago, CdrJanny said:

Toby can do what I did with my picky eater: tell him that their house was not a diner and Kate and Toby are not short-order cooks. 

BTW, my son's pediatrician told me to do that.  If my son got hungry enough, he would eat what I prepared for him 

To each their own. Personally, if my child’s pediatrician told me that, I’d find another pediatrician because our values do not align.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, kili said:

Hints of something dire in Boston if Malik stopped texting? Or did he just leave his phone at the library?

I was wondering about that, too.  Maybe he also had a "no phone" policy for that day.  Or, if he spent it with his child and his ex, maybe his ex made a "no phone" rule.  But if that were the case, there's no reason he couldn't have texted to tell Deja that first.

[screenaddict]

I really struggled with teen Kate having to mother her mother. I know they want to play up the mother/daughter relationship, but I have too many girlfriends who were forced to be their mom's BFF because their moms didn't have any real friends. That's a lot of pressure on a teenager.

I wish Toby and Kate weren't going south. I almost feel like they're trying to make Toby be a jerk without going overboard - in the real world, I'm afraid Toby would make snide comments to Kate because he managed to lose weight and she's still big. Again, I suppose I know too many people who treat exercise and nutrition like a religion and become enthusiastic converts.

Last night was a fabulous episode. I'm going to miss this family when the show is finished.

[Ohiopirate02]

14 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

To each their own. Personally, if my child’s pediatrician told me that, I’d find another pediatrician because our values do not align.

As I have said in other posts here, I have spent time reading up on fat activism.  They would agree that this pediatrician gave horrible advice.  So would most parents who raised picky eaters.  Just because someone went to medical school, does not mean then cannot be wrong.  

1 minute ago, screenaddict said:

I wish Toby and Kate weren't going south. I almost feel like they're trying to make Toby be a jerk without going overboard - in the real world, I'm afraid Toby would make snide comments to Kate because he managed to lose weight and she's still big. Again, I suppose I know too many people who treat exercise and nutrition like a religion and become enthusiastic converts.

Remember, Toby lost his weight because of Crossfit.  We know he changed gyms after his emotional affair with Kara, that does not mean that he gave Crossfit up.

[Haleth]

55 minutes ago, kili said:

Note that all the arguments were about Jack and his genetics? There was no debate about what Hailey was eating.

Hailey doesn’t share their genes. Certainly they are concerned with what she eats but not as a hereditary issue. 

[Crs97]

I don’t know how we got to all or nothing with Toby.  He wasn’t making Jack go keto; he just scraped off most of the marshmallows and was giving him the sweet potato.  Kate was holding a huge big spoon filled with batter that morning.  He didn’t get upset that Jack had any of it, just questioned how much.  Again, he said he wanted to go shopping as a family on the weekends and she declined.  If this is Toby being a jerk, I’m not seeing it.

[Leeds]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Mandy was fantastic this episode.  Her talk with the family was so well acted.  Heartbreaking.  Ugh, I know so many people dealing with the anguish of this terrible disease, it makes sense to set out a plan while everyone is there to listen.

 

For anyone interested, Still Alice is a great novel (and later film with Julianne Moore) about early onset Alzheimer's.  It's written by a neuroscientist who did a lot of research before writing the book.  It's a tear jerker, but fascinating.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I don’t know how we got to all or nothing with Toby.  He wasn’t making Jack go keto; he just scraped off most of the marshmallows and was giving him the sweet potato.  Kate was holding a huge big spoon filled with batter that morning.  He didn’t get upset that Jack had any of it, just questioned how much.  Again, he said he wanted to go shopping as a family on the weekends and she declined.  If this is Toby being a jerk, I’m not seeing it.

I get why Kate does not want to go grocery shopping as a family.  While Toby is away working, she is with the kids.  She does get breaks when she is at work, but every morning and every evening it is just her.  Kate needs a break, so she goes grocery shopping with Rebecca while Toby is watching the kids.  Maybe they also get lunch or a coffee on their way.  Also, if Toby is not there for days, does he really want to waste the precious hours he has with the kids doing mundane things like grocery shop?  Kate is trying to be considerate and give him quality time with the kids.  

Toby can also see what Kate bought when she gets home.  Or discuss the shopping list with Kate before she goes.  Hell, he can also place an online order and have Kate pick it up.  

[PepSinger]

36 minutes ago, kili said:

Note that all the arguments were about Jack and his genetics? There was no debate about what Hailey was eating. This could end up like the Kate vs Randall/Kevin situation where Jack ends up getting an unhealthy relationship with food.

Oooh. Good point. 

[Crs97]

I am of the mindset that Rebecca has done all the legal paperwork, but wanted this meeting so that they could all hear her wishes.  It’s less of an argument about the black and white legalities when there are witnesses to her meeting.  Mandy knocked it out of the park.

 I get why Kate does not want to go grocery shopping as a family.  While Toby is away working, she is with the kids.  She does get breaks when she is at work, but every morning and every evening it is just her.  Kate needs a break, so she goes grocery shopping with Rebecca while Toby is watching the kids.

 

This gives me flashbacks to my husband saying I was getting some “me” time by grocery shopping without our four as toddlers.  I had him come with me and reminded him he thought this was my fun time.  He apologized and never said it again!

Edited March 9, 2022 by Crs97

[PepSinger]

26 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Toby can also see what Kate bought when she gets home.  Or discuss the shopping list with Kate before she goes.  Hell, he can also place an online order and have Kate pick it up.  

That was the other thing. It pissed me off that when Kate clarified it wasn’t just a “sugary cereal” that Toby second guessed her as if she wouldn’t understand what sugar fucking is. I thought the cereal was a nice compromise because it was whole grains but still had a bit of frost, so Jack could enjoy it. But no, Toby was too busy fixating on the sugar.

Which also brings me to this, while Toby has every right to be annoyed that Kevin is living in their home, he was 100% out of line for calling Kevin a man child —on Thanksgiving, and in his family’s home—across the dinner table. I laughed and cheered when Kevin told him to take off the hat because it wasn’t just about Kevin’s own ego; he was hurting his sister and making the entire family uncomfortable at dinner. Kevin meant that shit, LOL.

Edited March 9, 2022 by PepSinger

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I am of the mindset that Rebecca has done all the legal paperwork, but wanted this meeting so that they could all hear her wishes.  It’s less of an argument about the black and white legalities when there are witnesses to her meeting.  Mandy knocked it out of the park.

 

 

This gives me flashbacks to my husband saying I was getting some “me” time by grocery shopping without our four as toddlers.  I had him come with me and reminded him he thought this was my fun time.  He apologized and never said it again!

In 2022, "grocery shopping" can be me time if your partner is not aware of online ordering.  He doesn't need to know you already placed the order two days ago and all you have to do is pick it up.  So Kate and Rebecca go out to lunch, get a pedicure, go shopping, go to a bar, whatever and swing on by the grocery store to pick up the already picked order.  It's dishonest and can contribute to the breakdown of a marriage already on shaky ground, but who's counting.

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, CdrJanny said:

And just when do you think obese children eat sugary, fatty food, if not at holidays? 

In school. Cafeterias have contracts with some of the worst food companies that promote burgers and pizza as "nutritious". Isn't pizza considered a vegetable because it has tomato (the sauce has sugar in it by the way). Nutrition, America Style.

At home, when parent's don't have the appropriate support and the kids are watching TV, playing games or whatever they do these days because many cannot afford, or don't have access to after school programs. So they eat all the wrong stuff.

If you are poor, you get all the wrong stuff from the food deserts that are the only places where your family can find housing. 

I could go on.

Holidays are, in a way, a time of not following  some of the usual rules of daily life. People sleep in, eat more, drink different stuff. not allowing a kid to experiment and experience different foods backfire. It doesn't mean you don't educate them, explain why that "junk" food is not for everyday consumption - but again, if he is going to certain schools, he will be trapped eating crap anyway.

 

[cardigirl]

I think Toby and Kate have valid arguments for their points of view, but aren't dealing with each other very well.

It's best to treat food as fuel and not good vs. bad, and I think Kate was trying to get there, by not forbidding anything. Toby was also pointing out how easy it is to make something healthier, i.e., plain baked sweet potatoes vs. candied yams. Kate felt that Toby's comments about food were directed at her, due to her insecurity about her weight, and Toby was feeling insecure about not being home as much as he'd like. 

I put most of the blame on Kate, as she didn't want to move to San Francisco while Toby didn't want to stay where they were and be a househusband. I give Toby lots of credit for continuing to look for a meaningful job, because he knew himself well enough to know he couldn't be a fulltime househusband and father. 

Someone's relationship with food is so fraught with their relationship with their family, the main caregiver, and past traumas in their lives, it's so much more complicated than denying yourself all the sugar, or eating anything and everything you want. That's why, when someone finds something that works for them, and they start feeling healthy again, they (Toby) want to share their knowledge. It's not a matter of being mean, it's a matter of enthusiasm over something that worked for them. 

If someone only indulged on holidays, that would not lead to obesity, however, treating certain foods as "special" and "treats" and that it's a "reward," sets one up for thinking some foods are more desirable that others. 

The story of Rebecca and her mother and how they felt about food and weight was classic. It was an act of love and service to prepare a huge meal that they didn't partake of. 

I don't know the true reason behind Chrissy Metz's weight, but certainly Kate is still struggling with her feelings about her size and her relationship with food. 

*ETA: There is no need for additional sugar in any kind of cereal. Kate may have thought the cereal was healthy and perhaps it was healthier than a heavily sugared cereal, but for a young toddler, I wouldn't be giving a cereal that had any refined sugar in it. There's no need for it. Most toddlers love plain Cheerios anyway.  

Edited March 9, 2022 by cardigirl

[Leeds]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 I also wonder what Toby is going to do if Jack is the type of toddler who will only eat chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc. or one who requires copious amounts of ketchup with every dinner.  Kids go through phases where they are extremely picky eaters, how will Toby react to that? Will he force Jack to eat the food in front of him, or acquiesce because it's only a phase?   

My kids didn't have the opportunity to "only eat chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc".  Why not?  Because as the responsible adult, I did not have them in my house.  No tomato ketchup either.  My children were not deprived, they didn't know to miss them, and as adults they maintain healthy weights.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Leeds
ketchup not sauce

[PepSinger]

2 minutes ago, Leeds said:

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 I also wonder what Toby is going to do if Jack is the type of toddler who will only eat chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc. or one who requires copious amounts of ketchup with every dinner.  Kids go through phases where they are extremely picky eaters, how will Toby react to that? Will he force Jack to eat the food in front of him, or acquiesce because it's only a phase?   

Expand  

My kids didn't have the opportunity to "only eat chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc".  Why not?  Because as the responsible adult, I did not have them in my house.  No tomato sauce either.  My children were not deprived, they didn't know to miss them, and as adults they maintain healthy weights.

And that’s awesome. Truly. However, households that do have chicken tenders, French fries, and hot dogs also belong to responsible adults with children, and those children can also grow up to maintain healthy weights. I know because I’ve seen it happen many times with friends and in my own family.

[Lovecat]

9 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

True, but let’s face it, they’re all pretty much a mess. Randall would probably have a panic attack if his shoe came untied. Kevin gets distracted by shiny objects, and also tends to run at the first sign of trouble. I think I’d choose Beth. Maybe Madison. But I guess Rebecca is kind of maternally required to pick one of her dumpster fire kids, and of the three Kate is probably the most stable. (Again, it’s a low bar.)

It made me laugh when Rebecca was talking about wanting them to keep it together after she’s gone. Like, have you met these people? They haven’t even gotten past Jack’s death from 20 years ago. I suspect Rebecca’s passing will be the final straw that leaves them all huddled in a corner, shivering like wet puppies.

 

Same.  I actually said out loud, to the teevee:  "Beth.  It's Beth!" and then made a womp-womp noise when Rebecca said "Kate."

4 hours ago, nexxie said:

Isn’t the secret ingredient always LOVE?

According to Sheldon Cooper's mom, it's LARD.

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

It was definitely catty, but I think that's the moment Rebecca knew her feelings for Miguel had crossed over from friendship to something more. And if she had any doubts, when he told her his Houston news, well, that clinched it.

It reminds me of how I realized I cared for my husband as more than a friend. We met in lawschool and were good friends but dated others until shortly before graduation. A mutual friend was wanting to set him up with a friend of hers and had a blow-off-steam party where this friend was and she was clearly quite interested and flirting and my reaction was "Back off, hussy!"

And that's when it clicked.

Love really is sometimes friendship that catches fire. 

I am going to have to remember that one.  I met my now-husband on the first day of 7th grade, when we were both 11; he sat behind me in homeroom and next to me at graduation 5 years later.  We didn't see each other for 20 years, and started dating 5 years after that.  We were married exactly 36 years to the day from that first day of 7th grade.

Oof, this was a rough episode for me...I'm only a couple days past the 17th anniversary of my mother's passing, and she's been on my mind.  Kate climbed onto that bed to comfort Rebecca, and my face exploded into an Ugly Cry.  THIS is my Tuesday Weepy Show; I hope they sustain this quality the rest of the season, and wrap things up satisfactorily for all of us that have stuck with it through some head-scratcher episodes.

[Leeds]

3 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

And that’s awesome. Truly. However, households that do have chicken tenders, French fries, and hot dogs also belong to responsible adults with children, and those children can also grow up to maintain healthy weights. I know because I’ve seen it happen many times with friends and in my own family.

Yes, thanks.  I realized my statement was very blanket.  "Responsible" is key, as are education, moderation, balance, and leading by example.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I put most of the blame on Kate, as she didn't want to move to San Francisco while Toby didn't want to stay where they were and be a househusband. I give Toby lots of credit for continuing to look for a meaningful job, because he knew himself well enough to know he couldn't be a fulltime househusband and father. 

 

We have not been shown any scenes where Kate has explicitly said that she does not want to move to San Francisco.  Their plan was for Toby to work this job while looking for another position in LA so they did not have to move.  He has also been working at this job for less than a year.  This could become an issue in upcoming episodes though.  

 

8 minutes ago, Leeds said:

My kids didn't have the opportunity to "only eat chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc".  Why not?  Because as the responsible adult, I did not have them in my house.  No tomato sauce either.  My children were not deprived, they didn't know to miss them, and as adults they maintain healthy weights.

And kids who were picky eaters as preschoolers also grow up and maintain healthy weights.  Sometimes it's a phase that they grow out of, and sometimes there is a deeper issue.  Acquiescing to a picky eater is not being irresponsible when the end result is your kid gets fed.  

[greekmom]

2 hours ago, kili said:

We know Jack ends up stick thin despite cooking enormous slabs of meat to eat so he does end up healthy so somebody's strategy worked.

Jack could have just gained the Rebecca/Kevin genes.  He does look alot like Kevin and Kevin and Kate are twins. So.... Plus meat doesn't make you fat. That is why alot of people go on keto diets that are protein high and carb low.

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Remember, Toby lost his weight because of Crossfit.  We know he changed gyms after his emotional affair with Kara, that does not mean that he gave Crossfit up.

If there was another season, I would have loved Toby gaining the weight back and Kate going thin storyline. That would have been super interesting to see how Toby deals with it. Ohhh coupled with them getting divorced and her marrying Phil while being thin. Now that would make some interesting episodes!

[BC4ME]

Regarding sugar and the only on holidays, etc., argument. My mother, who was never overweight had an unbelievable sugar tooth. It made up a lot of she ate. So consequently I, who am also not overweight ate a lot of sugar and unhealthy carbs very early on. I'm now in my 60s and if I eat sugar, I just want more sugar. It's been a lifelong battle. I don't care if it's set up as a "special treat" for a holiday and I'm not planning to eat it the next day, I always do. I find it incredibly hard to not crave sugar for a long time after if I eat any at all. FWIW my 23andme showed I was not even genetically predisposed to like sugar.

Yes, you can control what a toddler eats the day after this "special treat" once or twice a year but you can't control what they *want* to eat the next day. Soon they will have more choice and that choice might be too much sugar. Sugar cravings are complex. Early experiences do influence later sugar cravings in many people.    

[CdrJanny]

26 minutes ago, Leeds said:

My kids didn't have the opportunity to "only eat chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc".  Why not?  Because as the responsible adult, I did not have them in my house.  No tomato sauce either.  My children were not deprived, they didn't know to miss them, and as adults they maintain healthy weights.

Bravo!  You said it better than I did!

I think parents who serve crap like chicken tenders, french fries, hot dogs, etc. to their children should be arrested for child abuse.  Preparing and serving nutrient-dense unprocessed clean food is tastier AND cheaper.

My 39-year-old son doesn't have an eating disorder or weight problem, but he does prepare and enjoy nutritious and well-balanced meals