S06.E05: Heart and Soul

[BetyBee]

If Deja was really wise beyond her years, she wouldn't make such a poorly conceived plan.

[Empress1]

52 minutes ago, cameron said:

Find it interesting that Kevin and Cassidy just hop in the car to go get ice cream.  Thought that the cabin was quite in a secluded area.

It was a plot point that there was an ice cream shop in the town where the cabin is, or closest to where the cabin is. Kate went there on her wedding day to get her & Jack’s favorite flavor & it had been turned into a fancy artisanal ice cream shop, rather than whatever Baskin-Robbins-esque place it had been when the Big Three were kids.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Empress1

[izabella]

28 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think it is wonderful if people find a person to share their life with.  However, being single does not have to mean you are destined to be miserable. You can still have a great life, particularly if you are surrounded by loving family and friends.

That's totally true, but Kevin is lonely and longs to be with someone.  I don't see him transitioning to happily single.  He was that in the beginning of the show when he was playing around with two women at the same time.

[ljenkins782]

52 minutes ago, marceline said:

Quote

Agree. It's like this is a part of her story they've just decided to pretend does not exist. Maybe the actress doesn't want that depicted? In reality, it would be a big part of her life and a struggle. Not the entirety of who she is, but to ignore it completely seems false.

Season one made all of Kate's stories about her weight. Frankly I was tired of hearing about her weight but now they've gone in the complete opposite direction. I'm assuming there's a behind-the-scene reason for that. 

The reality is though that her weight is a huge part of every part of her life, from dating, to conceiving children, employment, dress-up events, and pretty much just being in public. People are awful and will openly make comments without any provocation when they're judging someone who is that overweight.

The most unbelievable plot point in that regard was Kate confronting Marc the creep from her past. There is no way he wouldn't have even blinked an eye in the difference from young Kate to present day Kate. And frankly, I don't buy that Kate would even bother to confront him face-to-face for that reason. So ignoring it altogether doesn't ring right.

Quote

They even paired Nicky up with someone great.

I'm happy for Nicky but looking around that depressing house, I found it hard to believe he landed that lady and brought her back to that dark, overly wood paneled looking place without it seeming weird.

[qtpye]

22 minutes ago, izabella said:

That's totally true, but Kevin is lonely and longs to be with someone.  I don't see him transitioning to happily single.  He was that in the beginning of the show when he was playing around with two women at the same time.

True, but the problem is that Kevin finds a woman and then looks at her like a stand-in so he can ape the relationships of his parents. He does not think "hey, are we right for each other" because he is trying so hard to become "Saint Jack of the grand gestures".

He needs to understand:

• His parents were from a different time and place
• He is different from his parents and what works for them might not work for him
• He needs to work on his own issues and why he seems to be coming back to the same place in all his relationships-alone.
• What does he want in a woman? Does he want a carbon copy of his mother (not in a gross way)?

I also think this is another problem with the writing. Kevin meets a woman briefly and then he wants to marry her. He really has moved too fast in most of his relationships.

It probably has never occurred to Kevin that someone can be happy single.

The irony is that Jack's mother is an example of someone who was much happier with a boyfriend than being married.

 

[Crs97]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Beth or Randall should have told Deja, "You're too young to know that you're supposed to wait and  drop your bombshells after dinner and you're too young to leave home and go live with your boyfriend. Pass the rolls."

Since this is the only time it is possible to come to their defense, they didn't plan on telling until right before the pie.  Beth demanded to know early.  Defending them kinda hurt, not gonna lie.

 

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I agree 100%.  My youngest son started tipping the scales at 220 when he was only 14 and he wasn't tall enough to carry it.  I started cooking a little healthier and yes, I might have nudged him not to take a second helping a time or two.  But then he realized on his own that he was too heavy and put himself on a diet.  He's now 6'3" and 190 and looks damn good in his dress blues. 😁

Good for you, Qtype!  The doctor at one of my kids' appointments came in on my telling him he had to run cross country for one year to try it because he hated all other sports and unfortunately liked all the same sedentary things we his parents liked.  Doctor was thrilled.  Child was not.  Then he joined the team, and loved it.  Ran 4 years and then started choosing better things to snack on.  It's a good feeling to know that one of those ultimatums ended happily for everyone involved.

[Good Queen Jane]

The problem I have with the Deja/Malik storyline is that, because of the flash forward, we know she is going to be fine. She’s in med school, happily pregnant, and still has a close and loving relationship with Randall. So whatever happens in the now, It all works out. Why care?

[kili]

Quote

Season one made all of Kate's stories about her weight. Frankly I was tired of hearing about her weight but now they've gone in the complete opposite direction. I'm assuming there's a behind-the-scene reason for that. 

In Season 1, Chrissy mentioned that her contract required her to lose weight. At first, she would talk about it in interviews because she thought it was a great incentive to help her lose the weight. But anybody who has tried to lose a lot of weight knows that is more complicated. Chrissy has an eating disorder and there are probably a lot of psychological issues (here is in article discussing it)

I think that the show runners planned on having Kate lose weight be part of her arc on the show. When the actress had trouble losing the weight they just moved onto other stories. Why compound the psychological issues for the actress? 

It's like when Katy Sagal miscarried while her character was pregnant on "Married with Children".  The actress was devastated. Out of respect for her, rather than carry on the story or have her character miscarry as well, the writers just retconned the storyline.

The weight loss story would have been an interesting one. For reasons that are none of our business, it couldn't happen. Kate has more stories to tell. I appreciate that the show-runners respected the actress and moved on. 

[Tango64]

5 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

The problem I have with the Deja/Malik storyline is that, because of the flash forward, we know she is going to be fine. She’s in med school, happily pregnant, and still has a close and loving relationship with Randall. So whatever happens in the now, It all works out. Why care?

Amen. The flash forwards took so much from the drama of anticipation and wondering. If we could have whispered to Randall and Beth at dinner that night, "Hey, don't worry. Turns out fine. She's a doctor later, all is good," there would have been far less angst and drama. But that's where we viewers are. Why worry what they do now? It turns out fine.

[mansonlamps]

18 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Zoe is my favorite of his exes but you're right. (And interestingly, I think Justin Hartley is on his third wife - seems like he, like Kevin, has a hard time being alone.) And Cassidy was down for sex but not all the other stuff that comes with being with Kevin - she's not made of stone! (Neither am I. I'd 100% have sex with him.)

In my experience, guys that look like Kevin are not only easy on the eyes but they are also really good at sexy times lol.  Probably because they have so much practice.

1 hour ago, Tango64 said:

Agree. It's like this is a part of her story they've just decided to pretend does not exist. Maybe the actress doesn't want that depicted? In reality, it would be a big part of her life and a struggle. Not the entirety of who she is, but to ignore it completely seems false.

I say this as a big person (not as big as Kate) who is lamenting how some things are more difficult and limiting now at my size and as I get older. It's a real part of life they've chosen to conspicuously omit.

My cousin is married to a guy who is tall and obese.  They are limited in who and where they can visit because of worries about strong enough furniture,  fitting in a booth and the like.   I'm sure even getting in and out of a car would be a struggle for someone Kate's size.  Not to mention likely joint pain, keeping up with 2 toddlers on her own most of the time and stuff like that.

1 hour ago, marceline said:

Season one made all of Kate's stories about her weight. Frankly I was tired of hearing about her weight but now they've gone in the complete opposite direction. I'm assuming there's a behind-the-scene reason for that. 

I had read back then that Chrissy Metz refused to do more than one episode per season that was weight related after the first or second season,  no idea if that's true.  Then it seems it was dropped all together as a storyline, which seems unrealistic for the reasons I mentioned above. 

[mostlylurking]

I thought Malik was very mature in taking responsibility and apologizing about his part in Boston trip.  He should have ended it there.  I honestly don’t know how I would react if my daughter ever pulled some shit like this (she’s three) but I don’t think Randall’s and Beth’s reactions were out of line at all.

I have to agree, Kate deserved that slap.  Calling your mother a slut.  Wowzers.  That’s not ok.  When she was on the phone with Toby I thought what she was going to tell Rebecca was that they were all moving to San Francisco.  I think that would have been an easier conversation actually.

So last week we got an entire flashback episode of Jack, who has been dead longer than he was alive in his children’s lives.  I know that is tragic and the episode was actually very well done but still…in the context of this show I don’t care about Jack anymore.  Now this week we get a flashback of Rebecca and some random guy (and he’s in next week’s episode too!) and STILL no flashback of how Rebecca and Miguel got together!  That is literally the only flashback I’m interested in seeing anymore.

[madmax]

1 hour ago, kili said:

The weight loss story would have been an interesting one. For reasons that are none of our business, it couldn't happen. Kate has more stories to tell. I appreciate that the show-runners respected the actress and moved on. 

 

48 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

I had read back then that Chrissy Metz refused to do more than one episode per season that was weight related after the first or second season,  no idea if that's true.  Then it seems it was dropped all together as a storyline, which seems unrealistic for the reasons I mentioned above. 

It's good that they respected her; there's definitely not enough of that.  But as @mansonlamps pointed out, they now totally ignore the weight, and that's just not possible.  I don't remember any weight related episodes - or even offhand comments - since the second season.

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

The most unbelievable plot point in that regard was Kate confronting Marc the creep from her past. There is no way he wouldn't have even blinked an eye in the difference from young Kate to present day Kate. And frankly, I don't buy that Kate would even bother to confront him face-to-face for that reason. So ignoring it altogether doesn't ring right.

I rolled my eyes so damn hard at the Marc confrontation that I'm surprised I can still see.  The character was such an asshole that he would have made a comment about her weight, but out of respect for the actress, they didn't go there, which is great.  But it certainly made the confrontation much less believable (along with the fact that they traveled that far during a pandemic just so she could get "closure").

[qtpye]

59 minutes ago, Tango64 said:

Amen. The flash forwards took so much from the drama of anticipation and wondering. If we could have whispered to Randall and Beth at dinner that night, "Hey, don't worry. Turns out fine. She's a doctor later, all is good," there would have been far less angst and drama. But that's where we viewers are. Why worry what they do now? It turns out fine.

Yes, the nonlinear storytelling really takes the tension out of the present storylines.

The future makes it look like everybody is happy and successful, with the exception of Toby.

1 hour ago, kili said:

In Season 1, Chrissy mentioned that her contract required her to lose weight. At first, she would talk about it in interviews because she thought it was a great incentive to help her lose the weight. But anybody who has tried to lose a lot of weight knows that is more complicated. Chrissy has an eating disorder and there are probably a lot of psychological issues (here is in article discussing it)

I think that the show runners planned on having Kate lose weight be part of her arc on the show. When the actress had trouble losing the weight they just moved onto other stories. Why compound the psychological issues for the actress? 

It's like when Katy Sagal miscarried while her character was pregnant on "Married with Children".  The actress was devastated. Out of respect for her, rather than carry on the story or have her character miscarry as well, the writers just retconned the storyline.

The weight loss story would have been an interesting one. For reasons that are none of our business, it couldn't happen. Kate has more stories to tell. I appreciate that the show-runners respected the actress and moved on. 

 

53 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

In my experience, guys that look like Kevin are not only easy on the eyes but they are also really good at sexy times lol.  Probably because they have so much practice.

My cousin is married to a guy who is tall and obese.  They are limited in who and where they can visit because of worries about strong enough furniture,  fitting in a booth and the like.   I'm sure even getting in and out of a car would be a struggle for someone Kate's size.  Not to mention likely joint pain, keeping up with 2 toddlers on her own most of the time and stuff like that.

I had read back then that Chrissy Metz refused to do more than one episode per season that was weight related after the first or second season,  no idea if that's true.  Then it seems it was dropped all together as a storyline, which seems unrealistic for the reasons I mentioned above. 

I remember that there was a backlash against the weight loss contract. So I think it has more to do with the bad publicity around the contract than the actress's feelings but who knows?

Now it is just being ignored. We hear more about how Madison's eating issues affect her life more than Kate's.

[himela]

5 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Now it is just being ignored.

But what are we expecting to watch? Her trying to put on her socks and needing help with that? Her trying to get in the car and not managing to do it? Her not finding a chair that fits her? I mean, people needing to hear stories about an obese person and their weight is hurtful and disrespectful in my opinion. I get the show wanting to show this aspect of her life because it is a big issue, but us the viewers wanting to see it and commenting negatively that we don't is weird.

[Empress1]

15 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The future makes it look like everybody is happy and successful, with the exception of Toby.

Toby could be happily moved on from Kate but sad that Rebecca is on her deathbed, and that’s what’s reading on his face. I doubt we’ll get much information about Toby’s life post-Kate.

[cameron]

5 minutes ago, himela said:

But what are we expecting to watch? Her trying to put on her socks and needing help with that? Her trying to get in the car and not managing to do it? Her not finding a chair that fits her? I mean, people needing to hear stories about an obese person and their weight is hurtful and disrespectful in my opinion. I get the show wanting to show this aspect of her life because it is a big issue, but us the viewers wanting to see it and commenting negatively that we don't is weird.

It's not disrespectful, when in fact she is obese.  Her choice in this matter.

[Violetgoblin6]

2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

It was a plot point that there was an ice cream shop in the town where the cabin is, or closest to where the cabin is. Kate went there on her wedding day to get her & Jack’s favorite flavor & it had been turned into a fancy artisanal ice cream shop, rather than whatever Baskin-Robbins-esque place it had been when the Big Three were kids.

Yep, their favorite (Jack & Kate's) was banana pudding, yuck. Apparently the house uses the Bethlehem (PA) police force (when Rebecca got lost) but it's in the Poconos and they drove there are all the from Pittsburgh (6 hours). 

I live between Bethlehem and Philadelphia and Bethlehem isn't the Poconos. Scranton or Wilkes-Barre, not the Allentown/Bethlehem area. 

[Tango64]

1 hour ago, himela said:

But what are we expecting to watch? Her trying to put on her socks and needing help with that? Her trying to get in the car and not managing to do it? Her not finding a chair that fits her? I mean, people needing to hear stories about an obese person and their weight is hurtful and disrespectful in my opinion. I get the show wanting to show this aspect of her life because it is a big issue, but us the viewers wanting to see it and commenting negatively that we don't is weird.

I see it similar to Rebecca’s dementia. If they had introduced that and then just dropped it, never showing her dealing with the challenges, that would be strangely unreal and we’d all point that out as a flaw in this fictional narrative. I don’t think it’s weird for us to say the same thing about Kate’s obvious condition. I don’t think anyone here is looking to demean her or the actress. I certainly don’t take any glee in seeing Rebecca struggle but it seems organic to the story they have offered us. 

[debraran]

I thought re Kate's weight that was done in the ignorant way some were back then, but Rebecca did mention her pediatrician once to Jack. It wasn't just Rebecca, I'm sure it was implied when they went for checkups, the doctor mentioned her eating better while the boys were probably okay. She used that to my memory as a back up, not just her. Really they all should have been healthier but today with childhood obesity rising and diabetes, I don't think it's hateful to want your child not to gain too much. She seemed fine until late teens and now the actress looks padded and I'm surprised they did that. They never addressed why Kate was heavier, genes, metabolism, did Rebecca and Jack buy crappy food that she ate a lot of and not the others?  They show her heavier from a young age although I thought she seemed normal weight in many episodes. Jack buying an occasional ice cream was okay but he undermined Rebecca a lot.  In real life if they took more hikes or walks or things that naturally helps keep weight down, it might have been helpful too. I always wondered why Kate was just "weight" never had hobbies besides listening to music, choir, music lessons, camp counselor job or something to make her meet people and get out of the house, hone a skill. Just seemed odd to me. Maybe they couldn't do that and then have her spiral the way she did.

I know Deja's bio mom is still alive, does she not keep in touch with her?

Edited February 3, 2022 by debraran

[marceline]

3 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

The reality is though that her weight is a huge part of every part of her life, from dating, to conceiving children, employment, dress-up events, and pretty much just being in public. People are awful and will openly make comments without any provocation when they're judging someone who is that overweight.

This.

Kate's weight affects her and her family like Randall's race affects his family and Kevin's addiction affects his.

A few episodes ago when Toby arranged for Kate to get a massage I wondered how that would work. Kate can't fit on a regular massage table. Or when Toby told her to get her hair done before the recital, I wondered how Kate fit in a chair at the beauty shop.

I'm not trying to be mean but...logistics matter. I'm nowhere near Kate's size but I've gained enough weight during COVID that I have had to deal with not fitting in a seat.  

I have a similar pet peeve with how the show has just forgotten COVID. I know a lot of shows have made the same decision. I consider it to be a bad one.

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, marceline said:

This.

Kate's weight affects her and her family like Randall's race affects his family and Kevin's addiction affects his.

A few episodes ago when Toby arranged for Kate to get a massage I wondered how that would work. Kate can't fit on a regular massage table. Or when Toby told her to get her hair done before the recital, I wondered how Kate fit in a chair at the beauty shop.

I'm not trying to be mean but...logistics matter. I'm nowhere near Kate's size but I've gained enough weight during COVID that I have had to deal with not fitting in a seat.  

I have a similar pet peeve with how the show has just forgotten COVID. I know a lot of shows have made the same decision. I consider it to be a bad one.

But the show has discussed the logistics of Kate navigating the world at her size.  She's had the embarrassing encounter at a restaurant and knowing she's not fitting into a booth.  Toby mentions he booked a massage therapist with the hands of a linebacker.  So he did discuss the logistics of Kate getting a massage off camera.  The hair appointment he made for her would have been at Kate's regular salon.  A place that Kate had already vetted as a place that can accommodate her. 

The show is not ignoring Kate's size, they are choosing not to focus on it.  

[izabella]

2 hours ago, mansonlamps said:

I had read back then that Chrissy Metz refused to do more than one episode per season that was weight related after the first or second season,  no idea if that's true.  Then it seems it was dropped all together as a storyline, which seems unrealistic for the reasons I mentioned above. 

If Chrissy did that, I think that was a good idea.  The show gave us some significant weight related story lines in the first couple of years.  They also showed some of the day-to-day issues Kate faced, like the seat belt extenders on the plane.  Is it worthwhile to keep showing challenges like that?  Does that add anything to the stories they are trying to tell?   

I think they have continued including some of the emotional impacts Kate's weight has on her.  Crossfit Girl, for example, was a direct hit.  So I don't think they've abandoned weight related story lines altogether.  It might come up this season if she does get into a relationship with her boss, the guy who dumped his perfect and perfectly "boring" girlfriend.

[Empress1]

50 minutes ago, debraran said:

They never addressed why Kate was heavier, genes, metabolism, did Rebecca and Jack buy crappy food that she ate a lot of and not the others?  They show her heavier from a young age although I thought she seemed normal weight in many episodes.

She was average to chubby (but not really cause for concern, I don't think) as a little kid. She was chubby as a tween (and there was an issue because the actress who played Tween Kate hit a growth spurt and was no longer chubby). Not obese, but chubby, and it was a plot point. She lost weight in her teens (there was a plot point of her going to buy a dress at 5-7-9, which is a store that only sold clothing in those sizes so if she was fitting into them, she wasn't heavy). I can't remember if she lost weight because she was dieting or if she (like the actress who played Tween Kate) is supposed to have had a growth spurt and things just kind of evened out. Then she started gaining when Jack died and kept gaining until she got to be the size she is now, and that's been just plain binge eating. There's a scene of her telling Rebecca that she's gained 20 pounds and Rebecca telling her not to worry too much because it was an awful year, and another where college-aged Randall points out to Rebecca that Kate is eating her feelings and Kevin is drinking his, and a whole episode about the Big 3 in their late 20s and she's this size.

Kevin was an athlete until he got hurt and then he was an actor who was primarily known for being hot, so he'd have had to stay hot (I think he's talked to Madison about this, though I tend to tune out her scenes so I might be misremembering). Randall doesn't seem to have issues with food, and he's a runner. (IRL Sterling K. Brown is as ripped as Justin Hartley.)

[mansonlamps]

1 hour ago, marceline said:

This.

Kate's weight affects her and her family like Randall's race affects his family and Kevin's addiction affects his.

A few episodes ago when Toby arranged for Kate to get a massage I wondered how that would work. Kate can't fit on a regular massage table. Or when Toby told her to get her hair done before the recital, I wondered how Kate fit in a chair at the beauty shop.

I'm not trying to be mean but...logistics matter. I'm nowhere near Kate's size but I've gained enough weight during COVID that I have had to deal with not fitting in a seat.  

I have a similar pet peeve with how the show has just forgotten COVID. I know a lot of shows have made the same decision. I consider it to be a bad one.

I'm not part of this demographic,  but it seems it would be a very significant part of Kate's daily life challenges.  If people don't think that's an interesting life experience to explore on a very popular show that chose to include a character who embodies a surging (it seems) number of Americans, I'm not sure why.  They have tackled addiction, abuse, war, racism, foster care, homosexuality, teen parenthood, etc. but the struggles of the morbidly obese are off limits or don't exist? 

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

I'm not part of this demographic,  but it seems it would be a very significant part of Kate's daily life challenges.  If people don't think that's an interesting life experience to explore on a very popular show that chose to include a character who embodies a surging (it seems) number of Americans, I'm not sure why.  They have tackled addiction, abuse, war, racism, foster care, homosexuality, teen parenthood, etc. but the struggles of the morbidly obese are off limits or don't exist? 

The show has shown the challenges a person of Kate's size can face as he/she/they navigate the world.   If you are a part of that demographic,  you see it.  The show is just choosing not to make these the focal point in Kate's stories.  The indignities do pop up,  but many if those are not a regular daily occurrence because that reflects the reality of people who are fat.  Yes some people struggle daily doing basic tasks,  but not all.  Just like not all fat people have type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure or heart disease. 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

I know Deja's bio mom is still alive, does she not keep in touch with her?

Deja’s bio Mom does keep in touch- they showed her coming to Thanksgiving two seasons ago. Likely it’s an “email/occasional text” type relationship. 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

She was average to chubby (but not really cause for concern, I don't think) as a little kid. She was chubby as a tween (and there was an issue because the actress who played Tween Kate hit a growth spurt and was no longer chubby). Not obese, but chubby, and it was a plot point. She lost weight in her teens (there was a plot point of her going to buy a dress at 5-7-9, which is a store that only sold clothing in those sizes so if she was fitting into them, she wasn't heavy). I can't remember if she lost weight because she was dieting or if she (like the actress who played Tween Kate) is supposed to have had a growth spurt and things just kind of evened out. Then she started gaining when Jack died and kept gaining until she got to be the size she is now, and that's been just plain binge eating. There's a scene of her telling Rebecca that she's gained 20 pounds and Rebecca telling her not to worry too much because it was an awful year, and another where college-aged Randall points out to Rebecca that Kate is eating her feelings and Kevin is drinking his, and a whole episode about the Big 3 in their late 20s and she's this size.

Kevin was an athlete until he got hurt and then he was an actor who was primarily known for being hot, so he'd have had to stay hot (I think he's talked to Madison about this, though I tend to tune out her scenes so I might be misremembering). Randall doesn't seem to have issues with food, and he's a runner. (IRL Sterling K. Brown is as ripped as Justin Hartley.)

Jack also mentioned in an episode from earlier seasons that Kate was likely like his grandmother, who while not morbidly obese, was probably a “big woman” for her era (a typical plus size person today). 

Sometimes kids are just heavier. My father was an obese child in the 1950s when it was really rare, and his brother was slim- confused their Mom to no end because he always wanted MORE food and hated running/playing sports. 
 

Likely without using food as a coping mechanism for emotions, Kate would’ve been a “typical” 21st century woman in the USA. Heavier than she would like but not obese. 
 

Yes- Kevin did mention to Madison how much harder it was to stay in shape as he got older. At 20 he probably didn’t have to watch his calorie intake too closely so long as he kept exercising. At 40, he probably is very aware of how much he is eating. 
 

I still don’t think how Rebecca handled Kate’s weight was any justification for Kate’s little outburst. Now if Rebecca was a mean hateful mother who called Kate names, or tried to belittle her- I could see where Kate would’ve learned that behavior. But we never saw Rebecca doing anything like that. 

[qtpye]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Jack also mentioned in an episode from earlier seasons that Kate was likely like his grandmother, who while not morbidly obese, was probably a “big woman” for her era (a typical plus size person today). 

Sometimes kids are just heavier. My father was an obese child in the 1950s when it was really rare, and his brother was slim- confused their Mom to no end because he always wanted MORE food and hated running/playing sports. 
 

Likely without using food as a coping mechanism for emotions, Kate would’ve been a “typical” 21st century woman in the USA. Heavier than she would like but not obese. 
 

Yes- Kevin did mention to Madison how much harder it was to stay in shape as he got older. At 20 he probably didn’t have to watch his calorie intake too closely so long as he kept exercising. At 40, he probably is very aware of how much he is eating. 
 

I still don’t think how Rebecca handled Kate’s weight was any justification for Kate’s little outburst. Now if Rebecca was a mean hateful mother who called Kate names, or tried to belittle her- I could see where Kate would’ve learned that behavior. But we never saw Rebecca doing anything like that. 

Also, would Kate be supportive if baby Jack or her daughter started gaining a ton of weight as they got older? My guess is that she would totally freak out and only start buying the highest quality organic food. 

Would that be Kate not accepting their kids for who they are?

We of course see in the flash forwards that both of her kids are slim and fit. Her son is also married to a slim/fit woman, like the rest of the men in her family.

For all Jack professed to love his “big boned grandmother”, he certainly picked a slim woman for his wife. Would he have been so love struck when walking into a bar (that he was about to rob) if Rebecca was Kate’s size? 

[Scarlett45]

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Also, would Kate be supportive if baby Jack or her daughter started gaining a ton of weight as they got older? My guess is that she would totally freak out and only start buying the highest quality organic food. 

Would that be Kate not accepting their kids for who they are?

We of course see in the flash forwards that both of her kids are slim and fit. Her son is also married to a slim/fit woman, like the rest of the men in her family.

For all Jack professed to love his “big boned grandmother”, he certainly picked a slim woman for his wife. Would he have been so love struck when walking into a bar (that he was about to rob) if Rebecca was Kate’s size? 

I think Kate has emotional issues and her mother was a safe person to lash out at because she knew her mom would always love her and tolerate her nasty behavior. Doesn’t make it okay.
 

Similarly to how Kevin would treat Jack sometimes- given how Kevin talked to Jack right before he died, I wouldn’t have been surprised if Jack had popped him too. (Kevin was truly a disrespectful POS that day.) Instead Jack left him a note “you owe us an apology”.  The “twins” are alike in that way, they “lash out”. 
 

I don’t quite follow about Jack and his grandmother (not being sarcastic please forgive me), we never met the character but I don’t think he would lie about her. Obesity was less common back then but there were heavy people in almost every family. So Kate reminding him of her seems natural. 

[qtpye]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Kate has emotional issues and her mother was a safe person to lash out at because she knew her mom would always love her and tolerate her nasty behavior. Doesn’t make it okay.
 

Similarly to how Kevin would treat Jack sometimes- given how Kevin talked to Jack right before he died, I wouldn’t have been surprised if Jack had popped him too. (Kevin was truly a disrespectful POS that day.) Instead Jack left him a note “you owe us an apology”.  The “twins” are alike in that way, they “lash out”. 
 

I don’t quite follow about Jack and his grandmother (not being sarcastic please forgive me), we never met the character but I don’t think he would lie about her. Obesity was less common back then but there were heavy people in almost every family. So Kate reminding him of her seems natural. 

I mean that Jack found it okay to sneak food to Kate when she was having weight issues but never seemed to be attracted to larger women, himself. Sure, he loved his "big-boned" grandma but that does not mean it is okay to undermine Kate eating healthy

I don't know his dating history before Rebecca but he was stunned by how beautiful she was when he first saw her. I imagine part of that was that she was slim and not on par with the size Kate was around the same age.

It bugs me because people so often blame mothers when children are overweight but they never think about how the fathers might have also had a hand in their kid's weight issues.

[Scarlett45]

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I mean that Jack found it okay to sneak food to Kate when she was having weight issues but never seemed to be attracted to larger women, himself. Sure, he loved his "big-boned" grandma but that does not mean it is okay to undermine Kate eating healthy

I don't know his dating history before Rebecca but he was stunned by how beautiful she was when he first saw her. I imagine part of that was that she was slim and not on par with the size Kate was around the same age.

It bugs me because people so often blame mothers when children are overweight but they never think about how the fathers might have also had a hand in their kid's weight issues.

Oh I see. To be fair to Jack- While I don’t agree with him undermining Rebecca, I don’t think he had any idea Kate would develop a binge eating disorder and become has heavy has she has become. As @Empress1 said up thread, as a child she was “chubby”, there are plenty of well adjusted chubby people in the world (even when the Big 3 were growing up).

 

I don’t blame Rebecca for Kate’s weight at all. I don’t even think how she tried to handle it was all wrong- she wasn’t malicious or mean. And truthfully she never had a weight problem herself so she was likely clueless and doing what the doctor said to do. Jack tried to comfort her stating that someone people are just bigger (like his grandmother was) and they are fine (emotionally and practically). 
 

I just don’t see how Kate’s weight has anything to do with how awfully she treats her Mom. Not just the “slut” comment, it would’ve been one thing if it was totally out of character and she was upset about her abortion and her relationship with Mark. But no she has a history of being NASTY to her, the number of fat cells one has doesn’t excuse character flaws. Especially towards your Mom, who seemed to be nothing but nurturing and kind towards you- even if she wanted you to eat your veggies. 

[Shermie]

Quote

Yes regular study hall is a thing. In many high schools its an "open" period, where kids can hang out in the lounge or whatever if your grades are high enough and you don't have discipline issues. 

We called it spare. Ideally, it was hoped you’d study or read or do homework, but you could do what you wanted, even leave school property.

Quote

mymother-in-law also suffered with dementia, & in one instance drove for hours in the wrong direction before turning around to go home. She also had several fender benders before we took her car away. 

You’re lucky she didn’t kill anyone. Teens get all the shit for having terrible driving skills, but seniors (often with dementia) have just as bad driving records. It is odd that the show still has Rebecca driving, considering she has memory issues and is strongly medicated.

As for the obesity issue not being dealt with on the show, I’m kind of torn. Yes, the show has dealt with alcoholism, dementia, etc. but the characters acting out those storylines aren’t dealing with it in real life. Any discomfort or cruelty within a storyline about Kate’s obesity would also be felt by Chrissy. That said, Kate/Chrissy isn’t just overweight or even fat, she is morbidly unusually obese. It’s impossible to pretend it’s not there. I mean, it’s realistic for Kate to be concerned about leaving Rebecca alone with two toddlers, but it might also be realistic for Toby to be concerned about Kate being left in charge of two active toddlers. 

[Scarlett45]

Question- why hasn’t Deja been in therapy after the adoption?

 

I have a theory, because Deja had to take over the caregiver role for her own Mom when her grandmother died (seems her grandmother did love her and was doing a good job, but wasn’t able to finish raising her), Deja likely has a belief (conscious or unconsciously) that she’s of the best use or “worthy of love” when she’s needed as a caregiver. 
 

Malik is asking her to co-parent his child. Malik who’s been a single parent for several years. He knows what it’s like- nope. Deja is willing to give up the freedom of adolescence to co-parent Janelle and provide domestic support to Malik. I was a caregiver from a very young age, I cared for my grandfather and my sister (yes we had a full time caregiver but she did go home at the end of the day) and believe me, the thing I was MOST looking forward to about college was not having to take care of anyone but myself. No one on this green earth would I have wanted to take care of a pre-schooler. 
 

Does my theory track or am I totally projecting?(I went the opposite direction- I’m childfree with two cats and a dog)

[qtpye]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Question- why hasn’t Deja been in therapy after the adoption?

 

I have a theory, because Deja had to take over the caregiver role for her own Mom when her grandmother died (seems her grandmother did love her and was doing a good job, but wasn’t able to finish raising her), Deja likely has a belief (conscious or unconsciously) that she’s of the best use or “worthy of love” when she’s needed as a caregiver. 
 

Malik is asking her to co-parent his child. Malik who’s been a single parent for several years. He knows what it’s like- nope. Deja is willing to give up the freedom of adolescence to co-parent Janelle and provide domestic support to Malik. I was a caregiver from a very young age, I cared for my grandfather and my sister (yes we had a full time caregiver but she did go home at the end of the day) and believe me, the thing I was MOST looking forward to about college was not having to take care of anyone but myself. No one on this green earth would I have wanted to take care of a pre-schooler. 
 

Does my theory track or am I totally projecting?(I went the opposite direction- I’m childfree with two cats and a dog)

You might be on to something because I truly can not understand what she sees in Malik.

It is commendable that he got into Harvard while raising a child but otherwise, I do not find him to be interesting or appealing.

YMMV

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

You might be on to something because I truly can not understand what she sees in Malik.

It is commendable that he got into Harvard while raising a child but otherwise, I do not find him to be interesting or appealing.

YMMV

I mean I think Malik is cute, and they seem to have chemistry. I can get her being hooked on her first love and partnered sex and all, but MOVING IN with him and the baby??? That’s got “Capt Save a Bro” written ALL OVER IT.

[maggiemae]

Why on earth would Malik go to Harvard if his goal was to be a Michelin chef?

They should let Deja go to Boston..no doubt she will be back in less than a year. 

After getting her birth control and hoping she takes it.

Oh - and no allowance either. She can figure out how to be a mom and work for some money as well.

 

 

[chocolatine]

Both Jack and Rebecca made mistakes with their different approaches to Kate's weight. Jack was the "good cop" because he let her sneak sugary cereal and ice cream, but the effect of treating food as something naughty and secretive was no less damaging for Kate than Rebecca only letting her eat a grapefruit for breakfast. But since Rebecca was the "bad cop," Kate only resented her and not Jack.

[debraran]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh I see. To be fair to Jack- While I don’t agree with him undermining Rebecca, I don’t think he had any idea Kate would develop a binge eating disorder and become has heavy has she has become. As @Empress1 said up thread, as a child she was “chubby”, there are plenty of well adjusted chubby people in the world (even when the Big 3 were growing up).

 

I don’t blame Rebecca for Kate’s weight at all. I don’t even think how she tried to handle it was all wrong- she wasn’t malicious or mean. And truthfully she never had a weight problem herself so she was likely clueless and doing what the doctor said to do. Jack tried to comfort her stating that someone people are just bigger (like his grandmother was) and they are fine (emotionally and practically). 
 

I just don’t see how Kate’s weight has anything to do with how awfully she treats her Mom. Not just the “slut” comment, it would’ve been one thing if it was totally out of character and she was upset about her abortion and her relationship with Mark. But no she has a history of being NASTY to her, the number of fat cells one has doesn’t excuse character flaws. Especially towards your Mom, who seemed to be nothing but nurturing and kind towards you- even if she wanted you to eat your veggies. 

Yes the only time we heard Jack chastise her for her attitude toward her mom was when she called her a "princess" and he told her to stop. (He had starting drinking then and she asked him to leave)She watched him tell her to make Kate another costume and to my recollection, not ask, Little things like that add up. I thought she resented her dad loving her Mom so much when young because he was the "prince" for her. That should pass. Knowing she had weight issues, why they didn't try to give her something to have confidence in was just the way it was. Kevin was great in sports and later acting, but got stunted in other areas, Randall was handsome and smart but had his issues but both had something that they could hone and grow with.

I worked with a woman who had 3 kids, 2 boys and a girl. The girl was always a little overweight but not too much, but she got larger in teens. The mom was bulimic and had a "rich" mom who valued thinness I think, and she didn't want to pass that on to her daughter. But they giving her junk food and not denying her things she knew weren't good for her, she did the opposite what her mom did to her in a way.  It is much more of a mental thing than carb/protein/fat for many and it's sad how we pass that on to children.

I agree though Rebecca was doing what she knew at the time and trying to get a better checkup next time. She also knew how Kate would be judged but she never discussed it as she got older and especially as an adult.

[debraran]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Question- why hasn’t Deja been in therapy after the adoption?

 

I have a theory, because Deja had to take over the caregiver role for her own Mom when her grandmother died (seems her grandmother did love her and was doing a good job, but wasn’t able to finish raising her), Deja likely has a belief (conscious or unconsciously) that she’s of the best use or “worthy of love” when she’s needed as a caregiver. 
 

Malik is asking her to co-parent his child. Malik who’s been a single parent for several years. He knows what it’s like- nope. Deja is willing to give up the freedom of adolescence to co-parent Janelle and provide domestic support to Malik. I was a caregiver from a very young age, I cared for my grandfather and my sister (yes we had a full time caregiver but she did go home at the end of the day) and believe me, the thing I was MOST looking forward to about college was not having to take care of anyone but myself. No one on this green earth would I have wanted to take care of a pre-schooler. 
 

Does my theory track or am I totally projecting?(I went the opposite direction- I’m childfree with two cats and a dog)

I agree with that in my mind and wonder why Deja never got counseling? I'm sure the same way codependents find people to help, many addicts have them as partners or family members. I had a guy tell me he had "help" since his 20's and was 40 because he was somewhat good looking and always found a Florence Nightingale who liked to help him and it made her feel good about herself. He said it doesn't always last, months, years, but that "helping" which isn't a bad thing in itself, defines who they are. I don't think Deja sees it but at 17 to be a partner to a guy who has his life planned and a child and would love a second set of hands, IDK. It doesn't mean he doesn't love her but she needs to take care of herself first and if meant to be, she doesn't have to be with him.

Edited February 4, 2022 by debraran

[MissLucas]

Okay, since it's been brought up several times now I have to ask what's wrong with grapefruit for breakfast? I remember it being all the rage in the 80s  - had the term being around I'm sure it would have been touted as 'superfood' and it was suggested as healthy breakfast for everybody. So what was Rebecca doing wrong here? Was it that she just served it to Kate and let the boys have cornflakes? 

[Pallas]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Deja likely has a belief (conscious or unconsciously) that she’s of the best use or “worthy of love” when she’s needed as a caregiver. 
 

Yes, and kili has said it too: Deja equates being needed with being loved. She feels safe when she serves. She feels self-love when she  serves: when she  takes of  someone, she even does their job of loving her. Deja believes that being needed was all that kept her alive as a child. 

Part of her difficulty with Beth and Randall is that she feels they don't need her, so that on some level, she doesn't feel safe with them. It's not a thought -- "I'm not safe here" -- but the absence of a feeling: a warm flow of well-being kicked off by taking care of someone dear. A familiar, reassuring flow that she's come to rely on to signal, "All clear." 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Okay, since it's been brought up several times now I have to ask what's wrong with grapefruit for breakfast? I remember it being all the rage in the 80s  - had the term being around I'm sure it would have been touted as 'superfood' and it was suggested as healthy breakfast for everybody. So what was Rebecca doing wrong here? Was it that she just served it to Kate and let the boys have cornflakes? 

Yes- it was that the boys got cereal and other things, while Kate just got grapefruit. 
(not that grapefruit is bad)

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

I agree with that in my mind and wonder why Deja never got counseling? I'm sure the same way codependents find people to help, many addicts have them as partners or family members. I had a guy tell me he had "help" since his 20's and was 40 because he was somewhat good looking and always found a Florence Nightingale who liked to help him and it made her feel good about herself. He said it doesn't always last, months, years, but that "helping" which isn't a bad thing in itself, defines who they are. I don't think Deja sees it but at 17 to be a partner to a guy who has his life planned and a child and would love a second set of hands, IDK. It doesn't mean he doesn't love her but she needs to take care of herself first and if meant to be, she doesn't have to be with him.

 

44 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Yes, and kili has said it too: Deja equates being needed with being loved. She feels safe when she serves. She feels self-love when she  serves: when she  takes of  someone, she even does their job of loving her. Deja believes that being needed was all that kept her alive as a child. 

Part of her difficulty with Beth and Randall is that she feels they don't need her, so that on some level, she doesn't feel safe with them. It's not a thought -- "I'm not safe here" -- but the absence of a feeling: a warm flow of well-being kicked off by taking care of someone dear. A familiar, reassuring flow that she's come to rely on to signal, "All clear." 

Thank you- this makes so much sense to me, especially from examples I have seen in my own life experience. I am not blaming Deja, she’s only 17 and it’s not her fault her formative years were this way. 
 

BUT I do think Randall and Beth should not let her do this for her own good. Also she should get counseling so that she is self aware enough to channel that “helping” tendency into something productive, and that she doesn’t let it neglect her own needs. Sometimes we need to be extra self aware of things like that. I think she will get there, but not if she moves in with Malik & Janelle at 17!

[SunnyBeBe]

17 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

The reality is though that her weight is a huge part of every part of her life, from dating, to conceiving children, employment, dress-up events, and pretty much just being in public. People are awful and will openly make comments without any provocation when they're judging someone who is that overweight.

The most unbelievable plot point in that regard was Kate confronting Marc the creep from her past. There is no way he wouldn't have even blinked an eye in the difference from young Kate to present day Kate. And frankly, I don't buy that Kate would even bother to confront him face-to-face for that reason. So ignoring it altogether doesn't ring right.

I'm happy for Nicky but looking around that depressing house, I found it hard to believe he landed that lady and brought her back to that dark, overly wood paneled looking place without it seeming weird.

I was wondering about that, Didn’t Nicky ask Kevin to help him buy a new mobile home previously?  Or maybe it was for help with repairs.  

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes- it was that the boys got cereal and other things, while Kate just got grapefruit. 
(not that grapefruit is bad)

And Rebecca also sprung this on Kate without discussing it with her.  Kate went down to breakfast just like all the other mornings to see her brothers getting their bowls of whatever sugary cereal the Pearsons liked and she had half a grapefruit when the day before she was eating a bowl of Fruit Loops.  Rebecca also went extreme on Kate's diet breakfast when she could have discreetly switched the sugary cereal with Corn Flakes and Banana for all the kids.  I know it was the 80s and diet research for kids was practically nonexistent, but half a grapefruit for a growing kid is not a healthy breakfast.  That is the diet breakfast of an adult who also mainlines coffee and cigarettes.  

[cameron]

36 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was wondering about that, Didn’t Nicky ask Kevin to help him buy a new mobile home previously?  Or maybe it was for help with repairs.  

I think its the original Pearson cabin.

[circumvent]

I don't have much to say about the episode except that teenager Kate looked so much like adult Kate I thought it was CGI, and

Malik and Deja are way over their heads. Deja, you had a lot of "life" in your few years but trauma doesn't mean maturity or that you are ready to take on a home with a chid, and an ex as the child's mother, plus college and the general adulting.

 

[Blakeston]

On 2/2/2022 at 7:44 PM, Empress1 said:

Do we know the circumstances behind Kevin cheating? I assume he cheated because he could - he was young, good-looking, and his career was taking off, and that gave him options. I am not sure how long they were married before he cheated.

I don't think we know for sure when they split up, but in the episode where he was 28, Sophie was out of his life.

I definitely think that the cheating was about him being young and hot in LA, with his wife far away.

Side note/rant - the writers want us to believe that his career went nowhere until he was 33 or so, when his agent (Katey Sagal's character) saw him being terrible in an improv show, and decided that he should be the Manny, solely because he was hot.

Because that's totally how Hollywood works. There are no physically attractive actors with experience or proven talent - so an agent has to choose a random hot nobody who's over 30 for a lead role on a network sitcom.

On 2/2/2022 at 9:37 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I watched the scene with Teen Kate & Rebecca- WHAT in the hell was that girl smoking going off in her Mom like that over nothing? Had she lost her damn mind?

Was she angry about her abortion? And just started swinging at the closest person?** 

I think Kate believed that Jack was so saintly that Rebecca was required to stay single and celibate for the rest of her life, in order to honor his perfect memory. 

5 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

But the show has discussed the logistics of Kate navigating the world at her size.  She's had the embarrassing encounter at a restaurant and knowing she's not fitting into a booth.  Toby mentions he booked a massage therapist with the hands of a linebacker.  So he did discuss the logistics of Kate getting a massage off camera.  The hair appointment he made for her would have been at Kate's regular salon.  A place that Kate had already vetted as a place that can accommodate her. 

The show is not ignoring Kate's size, they are choosing not to focus on it.  

The references to Kate not being able to fit into places happened very early on in the series. They've been going out of their way to avoid any reference to her size for the past few seasons. The"hands of a linebacker" thing sounded like it was just a reference to the massage therapist giving a really intense massage - not a reference to her weight.

I don't think anyone here is asking for the show to focus strongly on her weight. But it would be nice to hear a reference to her needing Toby or Rebecca to pick things up off the floor for her, for example. Just a simple acknowledgement of the major difficulties that would be involved in raising two small children at that size, particularly when your husband is out of town about half the time.

[Guest]

Please remember that the main site rule is to Be Civil. This includes not attacking your fellow posters for their opinions.  If you come across a post that breaks the Be Civil rule, please report it and do not continue the argument. 

Thank you.

[Empress1]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

I agree with that in my mind and wonder why Deja never got counseling?

I think there was a scene of Randall, Deja and Beth in counseling after Deja smashed Randall’s car windows, but it hasn’t been mentioned since. (I was under the impression that counseling was a part of fostering based on the experience of my friend who adopted her daughter out of foster care.)