S03.E06: What It Takes

[TexasGal]

Quote

Logan and team head to Virginia for a conservative political conference, where Roman finds out surprising news about his mother.

Airdate:  11.21.2021

[Moviesnob]

Damn. I figured Andy from Weeds would be important b/c he's, you know, Andy from Weeds. That scene with him and Roman was charged with all kinds of energy. This episode was just as awkward as the ones before (Tom & Greg eating 'prison food' at Denny's? lmao), and you can feel the chains tightening. Killer end with Shiv realizing her dad really does not give a fuck.

[Francie]

Roman was such a disappointment this episode. I know this is the same guy who taunted a young boy by dangling a million dollar check in front of him in the premiere, but advocating a fascist xenophobe for president? That's an all new low. 

At least there was lots of Tom and Cousin Greg to make up for that. Tom's gone from eating a bird with a napkin over his head to acclimating himself to prison food at a diner. 

And Shiv, being in the picture but not not standing next to the person who'll take ideas from "H" isn't the win you think it is. 

Tom had the best moment of clarity: Kendall always loses, and Logan never does. 

 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

Every episode I'm left thinking, will this be the thing that finally breaks loyalty to Logan? Picking Mencken (name?) or Andy from Weeds seems to be able to do that for both Conner and Shiv. Conner because he wants to be president and Shiv partly because she doesn't want a fascist in power and probably more importantly, she doesn't get a say or any approval for any of her thoughts or decisions. Yet so far not much seems to sway her loyalty, especially since she seems to think she's so close to grabbing all that power for herself.

As to Tom, if Logan can't even keep him out of prison and his wife isn't guaranteed to be around when he gets out, why stick around? Why not let Kendall help him instead. But of course, he's right. He's seen Kendall get fucked multiple times but Logan not even once. Maybe Logan will be able to make the DOJ back down or maybe he's waiting for a presidential pardon. Not that the chances of that are so great.

I wonder if their mother getting re-married is going to have any import.

[Ellaria]

This was quite an episode!

Kendall fires Lisa after she offers sound advice. Nothing good will come from that decision. Roman backing the fascist Mencken to Shiv’s dismay and Logan’s approval. (There was a definite flirtation between Mencken and Roman, right?) What a horrible turn for his character. And, of course, Logan is sleeping with Kerry (eww).

Shiv…sigh…maybe now it will be obvious where she stands with Logan.

The standout tonight was Tom. This episode is Macfadyen’s Emmy. What an absolute turning point for his character. His response to Kendall about never seeing Logan get f***ed was perfect. I can’t wait to see his next move.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ellaria Sand

[Ms Blue Jay]

Who plays Selgado?  I know that it's an actor I know, and yet... 

Does Roman even really care about the election?  Or is he just trying to continue to impress Dad?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Athena5217]

Glad Lisa did not put up with Kendall telling her how to do her job. Such a stark contrast to her “friend” Shiv. Unlike Kendall, I think Lisa will be fine.

There was a strange vibe between Roman and Justin Kirk’s character. I hope it won’t spoil the one true love pairing of Gerri and Roman, or German as I like to call them when discussing the issue with cousin Greg over rum and Coke.
 

Speaking of Coke, that was the second mention of the soft drink this season. Product placement or coincidence?

[Francie]

When Logan asked everyone about whether they'd support Connor, was that a test?  And Greg, though he initially failed it, did eventually speak up. 

I also loved Logan's annoyance when Shiv attempted to buy time from having to state who she pick by restating what they were doing there. 

[Lassus]

27 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

There was a strange vibe between Roman and Justin Kirk’s character. I hope it won’t spoil the one true love pairing of Gerri and Roman, or German as I like to call them when discussing the issue with cousin Greg over rum and Coke.

Actually, I think Menken is going to either consensually fuck Shiv or, horribly, rape her.  There was a real look from him during the picture scene.

Always love to see Justin getting work, and he really got to chew the scenery in this one.  It doesn't SEEM like a one-off, but this show is weird, so who knows.  Sticking with this story might end up too close to political home rather than the super-weird fun it is watching this rich people be rich people.
 

[buttersister]

Tom may be a lot, but Kendall’s bitch? No. 

Kendall taking photos of Tom was his usual, albeit nonverbal, reaction to rejection. What a hot emotional mess.

[Lassus]

2 minutes ago, buttersister said:

Kendall taking photos of Tom was his usual, albeit nonverbal, reaction to rejection. What a hot emotional mess.

I mean, sure, but it was honestly more just plain smart.

[Mr. R0b0t]

Shiv could pivot out of this situation with Tom and Kendall, but this isn't that sort of show.  Top 5 episode of the show IMO.  Very disappointed, if not disturbing to see Roman embrace and flirt with fascism and a fascist all at once.  I do wonder if Tom is so toxic and pending jail time why he would be in a photo with the family and the possible presidential nominee.  Low-key such a great Tom episode and while everyone on the show is a terrible person I find myself rooting for him for some reason.

I think the Coke thing is a subtle hat tip to a certain former Presidents Coca-Cola obsession.

[nb360]

1 hour ago, Athena5217 said:

There was a strange vibe between Roman and Justin Kirk’s character. I hope it won’t spoil the one true love pairing of Gerri and Roman, or German as I like to call them when discussing the issue with cousin Greg over rum and Coke.

German - I like this!

[Mr. R0b0t]

6 minutes ago, nb360 said:

German - I like this!

After tonight it appears Roman would LOVE to be part of a German nickname.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Mr. R0b0t

[aghst]

Logan had a shit-eating grin for most of the episode.  He thinks he can skate by buying favors from the next Republican nominee.

Not just get the DOJ to back off on the cruises scandal but also go after Tech, which presents an existential threat to ATN and Waystar.

I don’t know when these scripts were written but politicians are going after Big Tech, though the real life reasons are somewhat different.

So Logan thinks whomever he backs, via ATN, will likely end up in the WH.  Interesting that he chooses Romans political judgement over Shiv’s but he probably didn’t respect her politics or her work as a political strategist.

Not clear yet if she objects to Mencken because of his politics or because Roman backed him.  She was willing to back a more traditional Republican but looks like Logan never considered picking him or he went along with Roman’s immediate dismissal of him.

Well according to Tom, Logan has never been fucked — though Kerry is doing something with him, so much for his health problems.

Guess we’re suppose to believe that he’s been picking the president for years and has always had political connections, while Kendall seems to be making a lot of bad decisions.

I don’t get the photo op.  Sure Logan wants to wield power but he wants to do it behind the scenes.  So taking a photo with the guy he anoints isn’t exactly staying behind the scenes.  Can the puppet be effective if he’s seen with his puppet master?

 

[Hera]

Kendall accelerated his demise this week. I will never understand people—real or fictional—who pay lots of money for high quality legal counsel and then don't follow the advice they get to the letter. If you're going to do whatever you want anyway, at least save yourself the legal fees.

I'm not surprised Roman went for the fascist. Roman has always hidden behind ironic detachment to get away with being awful: "I'm being self-aware in my shittiness which makes it all a big joke, so if you're hurt or offended, it's because you're a moron who doesn't get irony, but if you go along with it, then you're complicit and I totally get away with it." I don't think Roman actually cares who's in charge—his personal circumstances won't change much based on who's president. I think he went for the fascist because it sets him apart from everyone else and if it fails or if Logan hadn't gone for it...well, it wasn't a serious suggestion anyway, and everyone else is dumb for taking any suggestion of Roman's seriously.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Hera

[AngieBee1]

Quote

Who plays Selgado?  I know that it's an actor I know, and yet...

Yul Vazquez. 

[tomsmom]

16 minutes ago, AngieBee1 said:

Yul Vazquez. 

To me he’ll always be the guy who says my favorite line in Seinfeld:

”Who? Who doesn’t want to wear the ribbon??!!” 😂

I kept waiting for someone to say Connor can’t be president because his girlfriend’s  a prostitute.

 

[thuganomics85]

Justin Kirk AND Stephen Root (the political consultant) in this episode?  I see the casting director must have had the new Perry Mason show on their mind: not that I'm complaining!  I also liked how they got other recognizable faces like Yul Vazquez and Reed Birney to play the other candidates, but the Kirk factor definitely made me suspect it was going to be Mencken that would get Logan's "seal of approval."  Which... is all kinds of scary.  Especially since I wouldn't be surprised if a hateful, fascist bigot like Mencken could actually win the presidency both on this show and in real life.  This guy is so bad news.

While I do think Shiv was sincere about her hatred for Mencken due to what he stood for, there is also no doubt that a lot of her protest was also to benefit herself, because she wanted Salgado/Yul Vazquez's character to get it since he promised to help push out Logan and basically appoint her as the new "ruler" of Waystar.  So, even when in the right, Shiv will always be self-serving as well.  And despite her brief moment of taking a stand at the end, she still fell in line when the time called for it.  Despite her best efforts, I wonder if she'll ever actually dare go against dear old dad.

Not sure of Roman really believes what Mencken was spewing or is he just a human personification of an actual Internet troll, who doesn't let a little bit of offensive behavior and bigotry prevent him from needling folks.  It's hard to tell with Roman.

Surprised that Logan had a seemingly honest discussion about Connor being it too, but that wasn't going to happen.  I.... love you as much as I can love any character on this show, Connor, but if you can't even get Greg to back you...

Kendall really has just gone down the "I don't know what the fuck I"m doing, but if I yell and talk real fast, things will eventually work out, right?!" path, which I don't see ending well at all.  I do think trying to flip Tom now is the right call, but I can see why Tom might not want to right now, because it really does feel like Kendall's always getting knocked down while Logan is untouchable.  That said, Tom has to know that he is beyond disposable to Logan and probably even Shiv.  Not sure how he will play this.

Why am I not surprised that a lot of the folks at the conference actually love that Greg is suing Green Peace?

Logan and Kerry are so banging, right?

Bye, Lisa!  Hopefully you got out of there just in time and didn't get dragged by all the bullshit the Roy Family causes.

Definitely recognized Pip Torrins as Mama Roy's new squeeze in the photos, so I'm sure that will come into play soon.  Can't wait to see Pip and his awesome voice get a crack at this dialogue!  

[ahpny]

7 hours ago, Hera said:

Kendall accelerated his demise this week. I will never understand people—real or fictional—who pay lots of money for high quality legal counsel and then don't follow the advice they get to the letter. If you're going to do whatever you want anyway, at least save yourself the legal fees.

Disregarding expensive legal advise seems irrational to most, but that's just a combination of arrogance and the insignificantly small amount of money that is compared with what a family like Kendal's really has. However expensive Lisa may be, (perhaps around $1800/hour or so), Kendall cares more about the question of feeding bagels to his children's rabbit than that cost. The Roys have armies of people telling them what they want to hear and shielding them from things they don't want to hear. Lisa didn't get with that plan. It's interesting to contrast how a seasoned Roy-whisperer like Gerrie handles the family, but still manages to adhere to some standards, with Lisa, whose suck up skills weren't quite up to par.

[cloeymoon]

1 hour ago, ahpny said:

 It's interesting to contrast how a seasoned Roy-whisperer like Gerrie handles the family, but still manages to adhere to some standards, with Lisa, whose suck up skills weren't quite up to par.

Facts, though good for Lisa for having integrity, something the Roy’s know nothing about. Although Shiv did show a sliver, only wish she had stood her ground a little harder and not joined in the photo with the neo-nazi guy. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by cloeymoon
word

[TV Diva Queen]

7 hours ago, tomsmom said:

To me he’ll always be the guy who says my favorite line in Seinfeld:

”Who? Who doesn’t want to wear the ribbon??!!” 😂

I kept waiting for someone to say Connor can’t be president because his girlfriend’s  a prostitute.

 

If when reading this you didn't say it in the accent.....I don't even want to know you

 

TOPIC:  Ok - what's up with Logan and his assistant.  Is she the puppet master?  

[TimWil]

Isn’t Logan pulling a “build him up to tear him down” thing with Mencken? After what he overheard Mencken say about him and ATN?

[Athena5217]

26 minutes ago, TimWil said:

Isn’t Logan pulling a “build him up to tear him down” thing with Mencken? After what he overheard Mencken say about him and ATN?

It seems like a pretty standard Logan play to make an alliance with an enemy then stab them in the back. I have no doubt Logan will try the same thing with Mencken. I’m not sure who I will be pulling for in that situation as they are both horrible. Probs oh Logan as I think Marcia or the kids should be the ones who take him down.

[Diapason Untuned]

Some takeaways from this episode.

Tom and Shiv's marriage is on life support. Shiv is willing to seek comfort from Tom, as last week's episode showed, but she is totally unwilling to extend the same to him. She cannot even bring herself to be concerned about the fact that Tom is losing his marbles over the fact that he's going to prison very soon. She dismissed him and then went for sex just 'cause. This was compounded by the continuing horror that is Tom's no longer clandestine breeding program. Please show, just put this shambler of a marriage to an end already.

Me being a foolish person, I thought Greg was joking about suing Greenpeace, but good God, he's actually doing it, which somehow leads to him being the new far right darling of the month? Ewww. I will say that scene in the diner where they're kinda trying to joke off going to prison but they're really calmly losing it was amazingly done.

Kendall spiraling again. You just hate to see it. Guy is just now realizing that this whole rebellion thing he sank all his marbles into is not going to be as smooth a sail as he would like it to be and he just decides to get rid of his lawyer when she tells him the unvarnished truth for once, something which rarely graces the ears of a Roy. Probably a good thing that she got out of this shitshow sooner rather than later. Please do the same, Jess! When he called Tom, I was really afraid he was gonna do another unwanted entrance, but Thank God it was just a secret diner meeting. I was howling when Tom just came out and told Ken that he's a loser who's failed to take down his dad already, so why the hell would he put his ball in Ken's corner?

Roman has always been the type to hide his shittiness behind his 'I don't give a damn" demeanor but him simping for this Mencken dude is a new low, even for him. I knew Shiv had no principles, but her actually trying to be decent only to fold the instant Daddy called almost made it worse than what Roman was doing.

Caroline actually managed to win the shittiest parent of the parent of the episode reward by not telling her kids she was getting remarried. If this leads to a wedding episode where they all just crash the party, well...

Also, Logan and Kerry? Damn it Logan!

[BlackberryJam]

I feel like I need to watch this one again because of so many undertones.

Why is Roman into the Fascist? Is it just to piss of Shiv or is Roman trying to use this guy to take down Logan? Is this some plan to make Logan look like he's losing it even more? I was a bit lost in Roman's motivations. I need to watch again.

Also the not-so-subtle racism of a gathering of white politicians and rich people just made my skin crawl, it was so well done. 

I am not a "fan" of Tom. I mean, I love the character, but I don't give a flip if his marriage sucks and he's losing it. He's an awful human. However, MM is doing an amazing job of crumbling, slowly, softly, on screen. 

Shiv is like a dog that Logan kicks over and over, but she still comes when he calls. 

[TaraS1]

11 hours ago, Lassus said:

Sticking with this story might end up too close to political home rather than the super-weird fun it is watching this rich people be rich people.
 

That's where I am with this episode/storyline.  With last week's fabulous episode, I was stressed out in a fun way because of the tension over the shareholder vote.  Last night, it was not fun.  Do not like.

8 hours ago, tomsmom said:

I kept waiting for someone to say Connor can’t be president because his girlfriend’s  a prostitute.

Right??  She's a wee bit of a liability, lol, yet no one mentioned it.  

Tom was by far the best part of this one.  MM has really been the star of this season, and I hope the last three episodes live up to the hype I've built up in my head for his storyline.

Also, I am so very, very over Greg.  Don't let him hang his ornaments on you, Tom.

[Lassus]

7 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I was a bit lost in Roman's motivations. I need to watch again.

I dunno, I wasn't that confused, just generally disappointed.  But it seemed in character.  Roman likes to win, and Roman likes the family to be on top.  He honestly thinks this is what will help that happen. 

I assume it's probably happened somewhere that I've missed, but has Roman ever actually had a genuine heart of gold moment?  

[Blakeston]

Roman wants a career boost, and Mencken suggested he would help Roman with his career, in exchange for Roman helping him win over Logan.

Also, I think Roman recognizes that Mencken will appeal greatly to the Republican base, and could actually win the general election. Roman wants to feel like a kingmaker, and be able to say that he saved the company by finding a winning candidate who's pro-Waystar. (Whether Mencken will actually be pro-Waystar if he wins is anyone's guess, of course.)

I don't think Roman is supporting him specifically because he's a fascist. But clearly fascism isn't a deal-breaker to him, either.

[Diapason Untuned]

15 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Why is Roman into the Fascist? Is it just to piss of Shiv or is Roman trying to use this guy to take down Logan? Is this some plan to make Logan look like he's losing it even more? I was a bit lost in Roman's motivations. I need to watch again.

Roman is into the fascist for the same reason he's into anyone. He's likes being humiliated or mothered. Mencken scratches the former itch,

From a political and business perspective, Roman really doesn't care, he just wants to pick the edgy choice that will impress Dad and set him apart from old fuddy duddy Shiv

 

Quote

Shiv is like a dog that Logan kicks over and over, but she still comes when he calls. 

Right? I mean, really Shiv, where did you think you were working? I kinda want to see what Gil's reaction would be.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Diapason Untuned

[BlackberryJam]

Oh, I don't think Roman is less than a huge asshole. He's selfish and cruel and a total dick. But I didn't understand the push for Mencken, not because Roman is a good person (he's so not), but because there are certainly other douchebags he could have pushed for, without the Fascism. 

Roman doesn't have a heart, let alone one of gold. None of these people do. My question was more, "What does Mencken do for Roman?" None of the Roys do anything unless it somehow promotes them over their siblings in Logan's eyes, or positions them to takeover when Logan finally pops his clogs. How does Mencken do that for Roman?

[Ellaria]

28 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Also, I think Roman recognizes that Mencken will appeal greatly to the Republican base, and could actually win the general election. Roman wants to feel like a kingmaker, and be able to say that he saved the company by finding a winning candidate who's pro-Waystar. (Whether Mencken will actually be pro-Waystar if he wins is anyone's guess, of course.)

I don't think Roman is supporting him specifically because he's a fascist. But clearly fascism isn't a deal-breaker to him, either.

The bolded statement had me laughing out loud.

I'm not sure if the Roy children have motivations other than the toxic mix of power and Daddy's approval. They have limited ability to analyze a situation and make a sound judgment. And they are way too confident in their own intelligence and ability to influence others. I think that Roman's reasoning for choosing Mencken was left intentionally ambiguous.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ellaria Sand

[aghst]

45 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I dunno, I wasn't that confused, just generally disappointed.  But it seemed in character.  Roman likes to win, and Roman likes the family to be on top.  He honestly thinks this is what will help that happen. 

I assume it's probably happened somewhere that I've missed, but has Roman ever actually had a genuine heart of gold moment?  

He did take Kendall out of that meth den in season 1.

[Penman61]

Why was Kendall's taking photos of Tom outside the diner by his car a problem for or threat to Tom?

Proof that they met? How? It's a random photo of Tom, by himself, by his car at night. I guess the EXIF data on the photo would geolocate, and cross-referenced with Kendall's phone would put Tom with Kendall together and...

It's probably simpler than this. Please help me. :)

Edited November 22, 2021 by Penman61

[dmc]

If Waystar is supposed to Fox like…There’s a smart business angle for seeing where the politics is going and backing the person most likely to generate a base and thus viewers/consumers.  This is the Roger Ailes model for everybody who has read The Loudest Voice in the Room.  So yes Roman’s plan probably will be successful on two fronts.  It will keep a steady stream of consumers interested in their network and it’s a move his father would make and makes him a likely successor.  Both Kendall and Shiv on some level are only interested in running their fathers company with changes. They want different consumers and more credibility. But that isn’t the brand of the company was founded on…its this brand.  For Logan to support either Kendall or Shiv, psychologically he would be admitting that the company he created needs changes and was wrong and he doesn’t believe that. 
 

I feel like every season we get to see why a different child is probably the more likely successor. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by dmc

[sistermagpie]

36 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Why was Kendall's taking photos of Tom outside the diner by his car a problem for or threat to Tom?

Proof that they met? How? It's a random photo of Tom, by himself, by his car at night. I guess the EXIF data on the photo would geolocate, and cross-referenced with Kendall's phone would put Tom with Kendall together and...

It's probably simpler than this. Please help me. :)

I assumed it was just supposed to be used to show the others that Tom met with him. Tom realized that, but probably just doesn't care because what's he got to lose from Logan being mad at him for meeting with Kendall and refusing to help him? It was another showy but ultimately empty gesture, imo, from Kendall.

[Marley GMA]

16 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Who plays Selgado?  I know that it's an actor I know, and yet... 

Does Roman even really care about the election?  Or is he just trying to continue to impress Dad?

Yul Vazquez....he has been in a ton of things, but I remembered him immediately from his Seinfeld episodes.  (Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?).  If you are a Seinfeld fan, you would certainly remember that!

[aghst]

Let me get this straight, Tom and Shiv have the money to have any wine in the world (or for that matter, any winery in Chianti or Bordeaux) but they commission a private label wine that comes with a screw top and doesn't taste like any other wine?

More a sign of the state of their marriage -- funky, Germanic, agricultural, not very nice.

 

 

[Penman61]

As I watched the Roy children--again, for the nth time--try and fail to get Logan's approval, it occurred to me that I really, really hope this show does for the Roy family what Mad Men did for Don Draper:

Draw us in with the conventional story/character appeals (Don's "cool," 50s-60s nostalgia, ad company intrigue, et al.) and then really lets us have it with just how fully, deeply, and irretrievably damaged the man behind that cool was. It was truly tragic but very satisfying to show us just how shallow all that cool was.

Likewise, I hope that while we're all pulled along with the Roy power moves, behind-the-curtain machinations of the very powerful, and the family's who's'-in-who's-out intrigue, the major point will be just how irreparably corroded this family is--and that it all flows from Logan. 

[jrzy]

16 hours ago, buttersister said:

Tom may be a lot, but Kendall’s bitch? No. 

Kendall taking photos of Tom was his usual, albeit nonverbal, reaction to rejection. What a hot emotional mess.

Honestly,  Ken is the poster boy for self defeating actions and attitudes.  He has done absolutely nothing right since the press conference.

Did anyone else find this episide horribly depressing?  It is too real for me,  its how its done nowadays and we are marching closer and closer to facism each and every day.  I had trouble sleeping. 

[BrownBear2012]

21 minutes ago, jrzy said:

Honestly,  Ken is the poster boy for self defeating actions and attitudes.  He has done absolutely nothing right since the press conference.

Did anyone else find this episide horribly depressing?  It is too real for me,  its how its done nowadays and we are marching closer and closer to facism each and every day.  I had trouble sleeping. 

Ken is a loser. And a spoiled brat. All the Logan kids are basically broken and bereft of any kind of basic sense of compassion. Their place in the uber wealthy world they've traveled in all their lives has left them unable to function as decent human beings. The are cruel to each other and are in a constant state of competition with each other for the crown. And everytime Logan annoints someone as successor, or teases it, he pulls the rug out from under them. Roman is an obnoxious rich kid who needs to get his face punched, Shiv seems to be somewhat human at times but her desire to run the store is obvious and she can be a weasel to her siblings also. And Connor? OMG! He's just a pathetic mess. This whole family makes the Lannisters look like saints.

[Blakeston]

Can someone explain what Tom did that was illegal?

Is his legal situation tied to the documents that Greg preserved?

[cardigirl]

15 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Can someone explain what Tom did that was illegal?

Is his legal situation tied to the documents that Greg preserved?

Tom was "in charge" of the cruise entertainment part of  Royco Waystar and figured out just what a powder keg of bad practices had been covered up there.  He "enlisted" Greg to shred documents that would prove the bad actions of the company and named names, which Greg did, but he also copied some of the documents as insurance.  So I would think Tom's actions are illegal. Conspiracy charges and that sort of thing. 

 

[tennisgurl]

Tom really hit Kendall where it hurt when he just straight up told him that he always ends up getting fucked while Logan always manages to get out of it, and that's why he wont side with him. Tom is a goofy wanna be bully a lot of times, but he can be really perceptive and has this sadness to him that I can really pity. He looked really hurt when Shiv told him to shut up about going to prison, that was pretty brutal. He could easily see that, as bad as things look for Logan, Kendall will inevitably be fucked or end up fucking himself. Hence firing his lawyer for daring to do her job and giving him some frank real talk, as much as Kendall wants to come off as cool he is wired tighter then anyone on this show and is constantly on the verge of snapping at even the smallest amount of pushback. As usual, his mixture of insecurity and ego are causing him to fall to pieces. The looks on everyone's faces when he announced he fired his lawyers, its like they were looking for the lifeboats after the iceberg smashed into the ship as the captain keeps telling them to keep going. He's so full of big gestures that he thinks will make him look in charge but no follow through, like dramatically taking Tom's picture when he left their meeting like he's going to blackmail him, only for Tom to just roll his eyes at him. He seems like a play, but when you think about it for even two seconds its so weak that even Tom, perpetual low man on the totem pole, can brush it off with an eyeroll. 

A lot of classic Cousin Greg in this episode, a true patriot. "I would like you not to crown...make Connor president. Thank you and goodnight." Oh yeah Greg, your plan of suing Green Peace is absolutely going to end well. 

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who got weird chemistry between Roman and fascist scenery chewer. They had such a weird charged vibe, like they were about to start fucking in that tacky golden bathroom. This show has always had something of a Veep vibe, but this episode was really going hard on that Veep energy. 

I really want to see the former Mrs. Roy again and see why she's getting married without telling her kids. I cant really blame her, as her kids are an absolute clusterfuck, but still, not nice. 

I actually do hope that Logan goes down this season and they really do have to see what shakes out, I fear that this show could end up stuck in in a rut where the kids fight for Logan's attention, he picks his momentary favorite, ditches them and picks another, and it just keeps going. I want some forward motion.

Edited November 23, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Bulldog]

Lots going on in this episode, but my favorite exchange was Tom telling Greg he no longer had to pretend that he liked Hamilton.   It struck a chord with me because I knew a couple who scored tickets to Hamilton.  After seeing it, they just raved and raved about how it was the greatest show they had ever seen, etc.  This went on for quite awhile.  Their enthusiasm finally subsided.  After it had all died down, they were at our house for dinner when they confessed that they really didn't care for it all.  The wife just said that since everybody gushed over it, they didn't feel that they could go against the grain and felt that they had to say they loved it too. 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Are we just taking for granted that Menchkin is a fascist because Shiv says so?  In season 1 she was advising the campaign of the show’s version of Bernie Sanders. By that standard, who wouldn’t Shiv consider a fascist in the Republican Party?

The overall impression I have of this show is that it’s a collection of young adults incapable of telling their immoral elders to f- off. I would love to see any of the Roy children, including Greg and Tom, tell Logan that they’d rather make their own way in the world than eat the sh— sandwiches he gives them. “We look forward to seeing you at holidays, but other than that, so long.”

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Can someone explain what Tom did that was illegal?

Is his legal situation tied to the documents that Greg preserved?

This is one thing I've struggled with, watching this show. Because Tom was unaware of anything illegal until the day he was put in charge. And Bill (fuck Bill) made it sound like the crimes occurred before *his* time, so they're old. The statute of limitations had run on a lot of them (murder, no; the others, most likely yes). And if there were "pay outs," likely they were legit general releases that absolved the company of "any and all" liability. The release doesn't have to specify the acts in question. I love the writing on this show, but the writers are weak on legal process. 

So, Tom may be liable for some destruction of evidence. BUT, even there, if he's just getting rid of old inculpatory documents, that isn't, in and of itself, a crime. For it to be a crime, usually you have to have an understanding that the object or document in question is about to be wanted or used in some governmental or other official proceeding. If a warrant is issued, and the cops are at your door, and then you flush the drugs down the toilet, yes, that's destruction of evidence. But if you just change your mind about a drug deal, just flushing drugs down a toilet isn't illegal destruction of evidence (having the drugs is illegal; the act of getting rid of them isn't an additional crime). So, here, the issue was a powder keg waiting for a match, but there was no law enforcement activity at the time. So, no lit match, and no obligation to maintain. 

Now, the one thing Tom did that was clearly illegal was testify falsely before Congress. It's the cover up that gets you every time. ;)

Edited November 23, 2021 by Francie
"an" and "and" are two different words

[Mr. R0b0t]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Can someone explain what Tom did that was illegal?

Is his legal situation tied to the documents that Greg preserved?

I believe he was head of cruises when some of the assaults occurred and when some of the documents were destroyed.

[aghst]

If you work for a company where current crimes are being committed and you continued to work there, helped cover it up, even if you didn't yourself participate in those crimes, do you have any kind of criminal liability?

Guess similar question if you become aware of past crimes but you cover it up by having documents destroyed.

I think there are definitely laws requiring retention of documents or at least emails.  That is why people are warned not to put certain things on emails, because you assume it's always subject to legal discovery or disclosure.

Does that extend to paper documents?

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Tom really hit Kendall where it hurt when he just straight up told him that he always ends up getting fucked while Logan always manages to get out of it, and that's why he wont side with him. Tom is a goofy wanna be bully a lot of times, but he can be really perceptive and has this sadness to him that I can really pity. He looked really hurt when Shiv told him to shut up about going to prison, that was pretty brutal.

I loved the moment when Tom corrected Kendall that Tom hadn't really played a hand well at all. He'd just fallen in love with Kendall's sister. That's basically how he got into this mess.

Quote

A lot of classic Cousin Greg in this episode, a true patriot. "I would like you not to crown...make Connor president. Thank you and goodnight." Oh yeah Greg, your plan of suing Green Peace is absolutely going to end well. 

I was a little confused about why he was being cheered by the white supremists? If that's who they were? Was it for Greenpeace? For standing against Connor? I think I missed something there.

Quote

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who got weird chemistry between Roman fascist scenery chewer. They had such a weird charged vibe, like they were about to start fucking in that tacky golden bathroom. This show has always had something of a Veep vibe, but this episode was really going hard on that Veep energy. 

Those two actors both have something similar, too, that just sparks one off the other. It's always nice to see Justin Kirk and now he's on both Succession and Perry Mason on HBO!

1 hour ago, aghst said:

If you work for a company where current crimes are being committed and you continued to work there, helped cover it up, even if you didn't yourself participate in those crimes, do you have any kind of criminal liability?

 

Tom's real crime is being just important enough to hang crimes on but not important enough to get protected.

Edited November 23, 2021 by sistermagpie