S03.E05: Retired Janitors of Idaho

[TexasGal]

Quote

Kendall and the Waystar team find themselves working together at the annual shareholders' meeting, where Logan's health takes a turn.

Airdate: 11.14.2021

[Mr. R0b0t]

This whole episode felt a little off to me for some reason.  Maybe I need to revisit it.

[nb360]

This episode was a little hard for me to follow.

Poor cousin Greg.

What happened to the rabbit?

[DoubleUTeeEff]

That was an "emperor has no clothes" situation with Logan. Interesting that Logan in his physical and at times mental decline is still a better leader than his whole team put together including 3 of his children, Gerri, Karl, Frank and everyone. And even though Kendall is on the outs with everyone, he was still right about making a deal to stop the vote.

"His urethra wrested control from his brain!" I laughed so hard at that and at Shiv asking Logan "Have you heard where we're at?" and Logan taking a long beat and then saying "...Uh huh" in the most sarcastic tone one could muster.

Shiv surprised me by getting herself a seat on the board but it sounds like it might not go to her after all?

Kendall and that damn rabbit. He almost killed it with a bagel. This season has a strong baked goods theme going including the donuts and the pastries that Greg was sent.

So...Tom and his totally not creepy tracking of Shiv's cycle. It seemed like he wants to lock Shiv down in case he goes to prison. Kind of a way to keep her with him even if he's not around.

Greg, Greg, Greg. He's going to sue Greenpeace since he can't affectionately sue his grandfather.

I cannot wait for Conner to make his big move in regards to what he knows about Logan in order to get something for himself.

Amazing the amount of power these people have to be able to cause a president not to run again and using the power so casually, even when it ultimately ends up harming them more than helping them. Roman was so funny while he was on the phone with "the raisin." It was like he was on the phone with his crush and trying not to embarrass himself yet failing miserably.

I guess now that the shareholder's meeting is over Logan has no use for Kendall hence permanently blocking his number.

[Athena5217]

17 minutes ago, nb360 said:

What happened to the rabbit?

This was hard to follow but I think Kendall’s kid wanted to feed the rabbit a bagel so Kendall told the baby sitter to let the kid do it. Then the rabbit got sick and Kendall told the babysitter to call their doctor because I guess they don’t have a regular vet and they are all too stupid to think of taking it to an emergency vet place.  I have no idea why Kendall couldn’t just tell the babysitter to tell the kids, “No because rabbits don’t eat bagels.” 
 

I bet Logan sent those bagels. I felt sorry for him for about 30 seconds after the assistant said he had a UTI.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Athena5217

[Ellaria]

8 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

That was an "emperor has no clothes" situation with Logan. Interesting that Logan in his physical and at times mental decline is still a better leader than his whole team put together including 3 of his children, Gerri, Karl, Frank and everyone. And even though Kendall is on the outs with everyone, he was still right about making a deal to stop the vote.

Yes to all of this! Logan's health will continue to be an issue. It will be interesting to see how the kids, Gerri, etc maneuver around it. There is no denying that he is in decline.

I laughed out loud so many times in this episode: Frank stuck on stage with Greg running notes to him, Kendall walking up while Karl was speaking, everything about Tom (especially his comment to Greg: "what's next? Save the Children?").

Shiv may have brokered the final deal but, clearly, she doesn't have Logan's support. And Roman is enjoying it. 

An excellent episode overall. Curious to see what comes next. None of the Roys better get too comfortable. 

[Diapason Untuned]

Shiv actually sorta earned her salary today and all she got for it was Logan dismissing her like she was a mosquito and Tom confessing to tracking her periods. Ouch. First time I've felt sorry for Shiv in a while.

It's ironic that with no Logan to try and meddle with and no scandals to milk, Kendall was just...there. Ineffective as hell. Logan got him back at the end with that classic Logan "He already left" bit.

Roman was also like a shadow of himself too. Normally his irreverence has an almost spunky quality to it, but today it felt pale. Maybe his heart wasn't in it. It's telling that he was literally the only one in the room that was really worried about Logan's health.

Poor Greg. You were working in a theme park my guy, your grandpa was never going to give you shit. He did give him some nice advice about taking himself seriously but suing Greenpeace is not the way to go.

[SHD]

“Tomorrow we’re all going to try to look for jobs in the same branch of Target.” (Who calls a Target store a “branch”?! LOL)

I had trouble following all the business mechanations in the episode. No CEO position for me, I guess.

Edited November 15, 2021 by SHD

[Bulldog]

It seemed totally unrealistic that it took everyone as long as it did to figure out that something was off with Logan. 

[aghst]

Maybe the bagel incident is a metaphor for how Kendall goes for showy wins but can't follow through.  He was a hero to his kid for getting the rabbit and having a web cam for the kid to watch.

Certainly he was distracted so he told the nanny to feed the bagel to the rabbit, to get rid of her.  Then getting another call about the rabbit being sick, at a crucial time for this shareholder meeting, was another distraction to him.

But he hasn't been able to choose a path and stay with it all the way.  It's been the story of his life as depicted on the show.

Shiv obviously doesn't trust Logan, despite what she said an episode or two ago.  So she takes advantage of the situation to carve out a board seat for herself.  She also tries to establish a relationship with Sandi, suggesting that Sandi convince Sandy.  Really Sandi could make up anything since it's only her that Sandy is mumbling to.

So girl power, take advantage of their incapacitated fathers!

Greg can't be surprised, he's being batted around as a punching bag by gramps, Logan and now Kendall -- "I like you" but I will burn you!  Still he can't be any less crafty than the Roy kids.  Maybe like Bran Stark, he will be the one who unexpectedly ends up sitting on the throne.

Shiv and Tom I don't get.  At the end of season 2 and the start of this season, Shiv was trying to convince Tom that she loves him.  Maybe she got over that once he offered to go to prison for Logan.  She obviously has the upper hand again.  All Tom did when he had some hand was to try to track her menstrual cycles?

Shiv isn't going to be sidelined by a pregnancy.  She's probably on the pill, since she was sleeping with whoever struck her fancy.  Tom said he didn't like the arrangement but I don't think Shiv considers the arrangement to be over.

So if they held the vote and the Roys lost company control, the show would have no reason to continue.  Now, it's pretty much status quo.  Roys made concessions but they will try to wriggle out of any restrictions.  Guess we'll see how big of a player Sandi becomes.

Looks like Kendall is going to up the ante by cooperating with the DOJ, possibly throw Greg at them, since Logan shut him out.  Otherwise he might have some time to organize a funeral for the rabbit and get another pet.

 

 

[sistermagpie]

58 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

That was an "emperor has no clothes" situation with Logan. Interesting that Logan in his physical and at times mental decline is still a better leader than his whole team put together including 3 of his children, Gerri, Karl, Frank and everyone. 

Is he? I thought that's where the Emperor has no clothes came in. He was completely incapacitated, then when he came to all he had to do was claim he would have done something better without having to say what that would have been and how it would have been better.

What he was good at was the usual emotional abuse of the people around him, probably like most tyrants. Shiv made a deal and saved the company, so he had to shit all over her, claim she made a mistake, huddle with Gerri and accuse Shiv of "buzzing" in his ear. And whichever kid is getting that treatment, the next one slips in to be the one dear to his heart--in this case, Roman.

Also like a tyrant, the only thing worse than his abuse is the possibility that he's no longer the powerful figure he once was. So we get Roman literally not being able to tell the difference between being "six steps ahead" and an old man addled because he forgot to take his UTI meds and then Logan can pretend that's exactly what was happening later. 

Logan's always the guy who slapped a six-year-old boy on the spectrum because he accurately told him he'd lost a game.

[TimWil]

Tonight’s episode showed how, bit by bit, Logan and Tom are growing “closer,” which I think will be very bad news for Shiv down the road.

[thuganomics85]

Man, that bunny is so doomed.  Can't wait for you to explain his eventual demise to your kids, Kendall.  Assuming you will even care enough to do so, since your children are so far down your list right now.

Interesting how Logan basically being out of commission actually led to others stepping up and managing to still accomplish things without his help.  Sure, I doubt any of Gerri, Frank, or Karl's speeches brought down the house, but they successfully delayed things enough to reach an eventual deal with Sandy, and most in the audience likely came out none the wiser.  And, once again, credit where credit due, Shiv managed to come through with the Hail Mary pitch to Sandi (?) and even found a way to possibly benefit herself.  Of course, she was naive as hell to think Logan would appreciate it and not just chew her out, because if there is one thing we can rely on Logan for, it's to tear others down who dare make a move without his "blessing."  Especially when it ends up working out.

Greg might not like it, but Ewan is probably right that Greg really needs a wake up call now and losing is inheritance might be what he needs to step up more.  Granted, I doubt "suing Green Peace to get my inheritance back" was what Ewan had in mind, but that's just classic Cousin Greg right there! 

Sure, Tom!  Memorizing your wife's menstrual cycles so that you might be able to get a baby in her while you're in the slammer is totally a normal, non-creepy thing to do!

Looks like Logan/Shiv's plan last week with the President worked too well and he's actually not going to run for reelection, with makes everyone freak out over Waystar possibly losing an ally/source.  You know what this means?  President Connor Roy!  Connor's time to shine, baby!

Now that all of this is done, Kendall is pretty much dead to Logan, it seems.  Let us see where this goes next! 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Now that all of this is done, Kendall is pretty much dead to Logan, it seems.  Let us see where this goes next! 

That reminds me--I loved Greg's pissy "He's so annoying" watching Kendall on TV. Greg's sympathizing with that rabbit about now...

[FemmyV]

My favorite episode since This Is Not for Tears, because of all the hysterical going on. 

What the hell happened to Sandy? I missed any mention of him having a stroke, but the whole idea of him calling the shots that only his daughter could interpret was hilarious juxtaposition to the Roy kids trying to come up with something Logan would approve of.

Tom is clearly trying to send Shiv off on maternity leave before she can get a foothold.

 

[aghst]

Forget the reason but the actor who played Sandy isn’t coming back.

but rather than write him out completely, they want him to be around because this proxy battle is a personal vendetta between Logan and Sandy.

so he has to be around for awhile but ultimately replace him with Sandi, who says she’s only doing what her father tells her.  Of course Shiv repeats that line right back to her but Logan is in fact out of it and she’s making decisions.

presumably Sandi will start calling the shots, either to usurp her father or he will die or be permanently incapacitated as Stewy ungraciously cracked a couple of times about Sandy being a vegetable.

[Dminches]

This season feels like "Seinfeld" where nothing really happens and it is just about the characters interacting.  I can deal with some of that but then it gets a bit monotonous.  

Shiv is clearly the only Roy child who has the brains and brawn to make things happen. She realized it was time to step to the plate and get it done with Sandi.

Kendall isn't actually cap[able of doing this, but he is right that the ship has sailed on Logan and it is time for some fresh blood.  It hasn't happened before because Shiv wasn't in the business, Kendall is daddy's boy, Connor is, well Connor, and Roman is too busy dealing with the demons in his head.

 

[Pestilentia]

Well, I need to rewatch- I was unnaturally distracted the entire episode by the fear that Logan was going to whip it out and indulge his penchant for inappropriate peeing. Or see a puddle at his feet or have him ask his assistant to bring a bucket. Especially when they revealed that the closest functioning restroom was down a hallway and up a set of stairs I just knew I needed to be ready to avert my eyes, lol.  

I swear the people on this show are masters of the non-commital answer. The many and varied iterations of "Huh" and "Mmm" that fall out of Logan's mouth are just left lying there for the recipient to interpret poorly at will. He's the worst about it but Shiv is pretty good and of course the rest of them do it as well. Hedge your bets until the bitter end, Roys!  

Shiv: "So am I still in? For the spot? The big job?" 

Logan: "Mmmm." 

Shiv: "Oh thank you so much, I knew you loved and respected me and that you'd want me to take over for you because I'm the best of the lot. Thank you so much for this vote of confidence and opportunity- I know I can do this!"

Logan: "Mmmm." 

He just dumps out a big giant hole of a non-response that leaves people free to insert whatever they wanted to hear. They do so and then end up disappointed- not that they inferred poorly but that he reneged on what he 'said.' It could all be solved if everyone would just answer a damn question honestly instead of turning their brains inside out trying to construct a reply that best serves their own interests, or what they anticipate their interests might be six steps down the road.

That's what's wrong with this family- you can't get a firm yes or no out of any of them.

I would find that so infuriating! The entire bunch are simply so devoid of any trust or honesty at all- anywhere in their lives. I mean who among them has a partner they trust implicitly and confide in and share fears and dreams?   I get finagling in business but looks like in one's personal life they'd want at least one person on their team. The way they've evolved as a family even asking what's for breakfast could be a minefield of a question fraught with booby traps and met with suspicion. 

They are just all so lost.

 

 

[Jordan Baker]

Brian Cox did a great job of playing a diminished Logan, even before the UTI caused his mental and physical collapse. In the earliest scenes, he looks pale, drawn, and, weak. Credit also goes to the makeup department, because they did a masterful job of creating that look.

[dmc]

Need to rewatch.  Too many plots and players happening at once for me. I’m certain I missed things.
 

Kendall is a jumble of buzzwords and empty jargon. He literally speaks in sound bites.  I have always felt this show was leaning towards him as a successor but I have serious doubts he has it in him. He lacks direction, substance and overall vision. 

Shiv is smart but obtuse.  She doesn’t understand 90% of a job like this is reading people and angling them to do what you want.  You don’t drop that even in victory, it’s just onto the next move.  There are no pats on the back, onto the next. 
 

Why is Roman increasingly looking like the best choice? 

 

If I were Logan I would try to robotize myself via Westworld to stay alive indefinitely. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by dmc

[Athena5217]

55 minutes ago, Dminches said:

This season feels like "Seinfeld" where nothing really happens and it is just about the characters interacting.  I can deal with some of that but then it gets a bit monotonous.

I feel a bit the same. I am hoping that the shareholder meeting is setting up big events for the rest of the season. I also realize they shareholder meetings are probably really dull so it is hard to write an exciting story about one. 
 

I think the part about Logan’s health was good. All of these well-educated, experienced people act like fools when he is sick mostly because they are terrified of commuting to something that will piss him off when he recovers. It shows how much psychological power he has over his family and employees. This is very typical of abusive relationships. It also shows how much Logan has micro-managed the company that no one has a clear idea of the plan without him. In a functioning company, I would have expected strategic planning for these negotiations with Sandy so Gerri, Shiv, etc. were ready to respond without Logan.

[ahpny]

48 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

I think the part about Logan’s health was good. All of these well-educated, experienced people act like fools when he is sick mostly because they are terrified of commuting to something that will piss him off when he recovers. It shows how much psychological power he has over his family and employees.

This is why dictatorships and authoritarian rule (over a country or a company) are inherently unstable and erratic.  You can't run anything well when your best people are afraid of seeing the truth or acting in a necessary manner because they fear an irrational reaction from their superior.

What I didn't get was why Shiv sweetened the deal by offering Sandi a board seat (with another going to Shiv) when they essentially already had a the deal struck. Was that all a ploy just to get Shiv onto the Board herself? Did she add Sandi's seat to cut off further "deal points" that Sandi might add later? Regardless of her motivations, I was also confused regarding how she would sell this to Logan later - and as it turned out, that sale didn't go well at all.

Edited November 15, 2021 by ahpny

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, dmc said:

Why is Roman increasingly looking like the best choice? 

 

Because he's not in the hot seat. They always look better when it's just potential. If Roman got promoted he'd choke in his own personal way, just like the others.

Which reminds me--loved Connor's reason for why there was no reason he couldn't have a job in the company since Roman's a knucklehead, Shiv's a phony and Kenny is screwy.

[iMonrey]

I'm not sure I follow how all of this works. I understand there was some sort of "settlement," but that suggests a lawsuit. Was Sandy suing Waystar/Royco? Because they kept saying if they didn't "settle" then "it would go to a vote." Meaning, I presume, the shareholders would then decide who should be in control of the company, right? And they might vote for Sandy over Logan, right? Who is Sandy? Is he a major shareholder? Was he suing Logan?

And didn't the shareholders arrive at this meeting expecting to vote? There was a live war room polling potential votes the entire episode and it looked as though it were being covered on TV as well. So how does this "settlement" take that decision out of the shareholders' hands? 

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Because he's not in the hot seat. They always look better when it's just potential. If Roman got promoted he'd choke in his own personal way, just like the others.

Which reminds me--loved Connor's reason for why there was no reason he couldn't have a job in the company since Roman's a knucklehead, Shiv's a phony and Kenny is screwy.

I don’t mean he’s a great option. Hence the robotize comment.  He’s just looking better.  Better is a low bar this episode. 
 

But notice in victory, Logan is looking towards the next play, the next manipulation.  Butters up Roman, knocks down Shiv, ices out Kendall, pushes Gerri for a better future deal. And he’s in poor health. 

None of them is there yet.

Edited November 15, 2021 by dmc

[BlackberryJam]

Shiv was ready to cave to Sandi/y and Stewy just to get a deal done. She doesn't seem to have the stomach for a fight. Offering up the board seats was a mistake because that was exactly what Logan did not want. Instead of getting creative, Shiv just caved. Yes, it got things done, but even when you are in a position of weakness in a negotiation, you need to act like you're in the position of strength. She looked weak and caved.

Of course, the ace in the hole was Logan getting on stage, giving a great speech and swaying the voters. That wasn't going to happen, but she could have faked it better with Sandi. Also, why not go to Stewy with some of the offers? There was a wedge there to be driven between the two of them. Getting Stewy on the Roy side would have left Sandy out in the cold. Also, Stewy was cracking me up with his angry zucchini comments.

Seriously, all the Roy children are shit at negotiation. Logan was right in his "Fuck 'em" response, but then he went piss-mad. 

This is a weird dictatorship of fear in that no one ever wants to criticize Logan or take a stand that might piss him off. 

Hilarious that Karl went on stage to announce the deal, cutting off the video about how Waystar cares about women. 

Kendall co-opting the women's stories to further his own agenda is disgusting, but considering Waystar doesn't even acknowledge them as real people, I can almost stomach it. 

Greg,...oh sweet idiot Greg. He rejected Boone/Pugh and Gramps is pissed. Greg isn't entitled to any of Gramps' money, but think suing Greenpeace is a good idea. 

Tom wants to lock Shiv into a pregnancy while he's in prison so he doesn't have to deal with any of the actual pregnancy, while at the same time locking her into the marriage with a baby. Tom, such a disgusting pig, yet I felt sorry for him while he was in the bathroom stall with Logan.

Kendall tries to appease his child by ordering the babysitter to feed the rabbit a bagel and it all goes to hell. All Kendall needed to do was say 
"No, Sophia, rabbits don't eat bagels." Instead he got Bianca on the line and ordered her to obey the child. Shit parenting being passed down. 

Connor's self-promotion and Roman's awkward phone call were perfection. 

 

[aghst]

Tom offered to hold the scepter.

Can they not think of more ways to humiliate him?

Shiv goes back to sleeping with other men or women?

[BingeyKohan]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

And didn't the shareholders arrive at this meeting expecting to vote? There was a live war room polling potential votes the entire episode and it looked as though it were being covered on TV as well. So how does this "settlement" take that decision out of the shareholders' hands? 

I'm unclear on this as well -- there was applause when Karl indicated a vote had been forestalled ... but you'd think some shareholders (maybe a lot of them) would have preferred to have a vote?

I'm also unclear on why the President needed Logan to know that day he wasn't running for a second term. First they had Michelle Ann calling, and they were generally indicating the White House was urgently trying to reach them, with the prez ultimately reaching out himself. Seems like it could have waited since the WH didn't seem to be using it for leverage about anything.

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I'm unclear on this as well -- there was applause when Karl indicated a vote had been forestalled ... but you'd think some shareholders (maybe a lot of them) would have preferred to have a vote?

I'm also unclear on why the President needed Logan to know that day he wasn't running for a second term. First they had Michelle Ann calling, and they were generally indicating the White House was urgently trying to reach them, with the prez ultimately reaching out himself. Seems like it could have waited since the WH didn't seem to be using it for leverage about anything.

A divided company with the major shareholders fighting for control is a weak company. The shareholders want to make money. If less money is spent on infighting, that’s more for them.

I think the President was being petulant. “See, you went on the attack questioning my fitness, well fuck you, I’m not running for a second term and see what you’ll get stuck with then, and btw, I’m dropping this bomb on you the day of your shareholder meeting.”

[sistermagpie]

42 minutes ago, dmc said:

I don’t mean he’s a great option. Hence the robotize comment.  He’s just looking better.  Better is a low bar this episode. 

Oh yeah, I figured you didn't mean he was really looking good. But I do think they tend to always work relative to each other. Roman working on the sidelines gives him a chance to use his own particular talents, which he does have. 

6 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv was ready to cave to Sandi/y and Stewy just to get a deal done. She doesn't seem to have the stomach for a fight. Offering up the board seats was a mistake because that was exactly what Logan did not want. Instead of getting creative, Shiv just caved. Yes, it got things done, but even when you are in a position of weakness in a negotiation, you need to act like you're in the position of strength. She looked weak and caved.

Sure, but that's also just the price of having done anything at all--that it can be criticized. Logan can claim he would have thought of something and looked stronger, and that he had no doubts about his response (even though at the time he wasn't sure), but he doesn't have to prove it. It's worked in the past, but it seems like a big theme of the show is that it may very well not work in the future. Thee main reason Logan looked as strong as he did was because he had a crowd of people around him hiding the fact that he'd mentally collapsed. They're all terrified of him not being strong, but the rest of the world isn't. 

Logan himself intentionally built a company that runs on his whims and charisma and raised children intentionally to always feel unsure of themselves, especially when negotiating, because the main thing they're all trained to do is try to please him. Even if Shiv had gotten the best deal in the world Logan would have hated it--might have hated it even more, in fact, because she has to look like a fuck up compared to him. He's willing to hurt all of them in ways we've seen they're not able/willing to hurt him.

Of course, there's maybe also the added winkle that this was a negotiation b/w the two daughters only pretending to do what their dad said and maybe Sandi would have caved if Shiv held out--or maybe she would have come back then with other demands (as she hinted she could) until Shiv gave Sandi something she wanted, which she did. There was maybe two different negotiations going on there.

Logan's created an empire that he doesn't want to outlive him. He only believes in strength, so when he becomes weak it becomes weak. His inner circle continues propping him up, but the outside world sees things more the way they really are. Logan isn't going to go over with Shiv why her deal might have been bad so she can do better, he just tells her she screwed everything up, just like he did to Kendall back when he had a stroke. (But Logan himself doesn't accept responsibility for causing the entire mess they're in now with the cruise line.)

I know none of that is really contradicting what you're saying--just think it's a cool situation.

27 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Kendall tries to appease his child by ordering the babysitter to feed the rabbit a bagel and it all goes to hell. All Kendall needed to do was say 
"No, Sophia, rabbits don't eat bagels." Instead he got Bianca on the line and ordered her to obey the child. Shit parenting being passed down. 

Yeah, seems like another example of Kendall's total inability to handle power. He can't look at the situation and make a good decision about it, he just wants to feel powerful by ordering someone around to remind himself he's the boss. And then, surprise surprise, the rabbit is sick, the glorious outcome he promised didn't come to pass and he doesn't even know how to react to the problem--like wasn't he telling her to call a doctor instead of taking the thing to an emergency vet? Logan might have also ordered the babysitter to feed the rabbit the bagel, but he wouldn't have accepted responsibility for the rabbit getting sick or dying. 

3 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I'm also unclear on why the President needed Logan to know that day he wasn't running for a second term. First they had Michelle Ann calling, and they were generally indicating the White House was urgently trying to reach them, with the prez ultimately reaching out himself. Seems like it could have waited since the WH didn't seem to be using it for leverage about anything.

I figured he was doing it out of anger and spite. He'd decided not to run again and wanted to tell Logan right away--and when he was already dealing with the shareholder's vote--that he hadn't gotten what he wanted. His deciding not to run was a personal shot at Logan, who was still facing all these charges. 

So kind of an example of Logan's strong-armed approach backfiring on him in that case. He thought he could get the president to do his bidding by threatening him with more bad press and attacks. Instead the president just said, "Fuck this, deal with the next guy." Logan is right about the sharks smelling blood in the water, he's just never going to blame himself for any of the bleeding.

[Blakeston]

I thought Shiv did a good job negotiating. She kept the family in control of the company, and satisfied everyone in her camp (except for Logan, who wouldn't have been satisfied with any scenario where one of his children succeeded at leading the company).

She also got in good with Sandi. And she carved out something she wanted for herself (the board seat), while convincing Sandy it would devastate Logan. If she hadn't done that, Sandy probably would have come back with more last-minute demands. Even if the board seat goes to someone else, her move probably saved the day.

[BlackberryJam]

@sistermagpie I have no doubt that Logan has failed to teach his children anything. He isn’t going to go over with Shiv what she could have done differently, or how he would have handled it. He likes the position of shooting other people, particularly his children, down, while not explaining any of the moves they could have made.

Roman is so indoctrinated into the Cult of Logan that he believes his elderly, piss-mad father is six steps ahead of everyone else. For years, it sounds like Logan was six step ahead of everyone else, or at least six steps ahead of his children. Logan has surrounded himself with sycophants who allow him to do all the thinking while they just carry out his bidding. They have been trained to believe they should interpret his “Mmms” and other mumbles. It also feeds into the “Logan is never wrong” mentality.

Good lord, growing up with this man must have been a nightmare. 

What’s also interesting is that none of them really care about each other. Not one of them is willing to sacrifice themselves, truly sacrifice themselves, for any of the others. Or for a cause. I would absolutely step in front of a bullet for my sister, and she would be shoving me out of the way to take it herself. The Roy kids though, they are each shoving the others in front of that bullet, not just to save themselves, but to eliminate the competition for their father’s meager affection. 

[BC4ME]

Personally, Shiv completely turned me off by having zero sympathy for what her dad was going though yet Roman did actually seem to care. Her main interest was in the company and not her dad's health.

[Lassus]

1 hour ago, BC4ME said:

Personally, Shiv completely turned me off by having zero sympathy for what her dad was going though yet Roman did actually seem to care. Her main interest was in the company and not her dad's health.

Maybe if someone tells Logan this he'll reconsider treating her like such garbage; it's exactly what he would have done.

[Avabelle]

I don’t get Tim and Shiv at all - it doesn’t even look as though she’s attracted to him let alone likes or enjoys being married to him.

I can’t believe I thought Kendall could takeover more than the others. He’s like a completely different character froM season one. What’s his endgame? Why did he want the deal?

 

[CouchTater]

This episode was a whirlwind for me.  I couldn't follow all of the machinations.  Like, what was/is Kendall's end goal?  Does he want the family to retain power of the company?  Does he want control?  Does he want to bring the company down?

Also, how long was that shareholder meeting?  Frank/Gerri were on the stage throughout Logan's lack of lucidity-to-medical emergency-to-treatment-to-recovery.  Frank and Gerri must be very captive speakers (literally).

[dmc]

20 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

I don’t get Tim and Shiv at all - it doesn’t even look as though she’s attracted to him let alone likes or enjoys being married to him.

I can’t believe I thought Kendall could takeover more than the others. He’s like a completely different character froM season one. What’s his endgame? Why did he want the deal?

 

I would like to piggyback on to this comment Re Tom and Shiv... with the fact that I love the movie Pride and Prejudice and it took me forever to realize this is the same actor.  Because as attractive as he is Mr. Darcy is as unappealing as he is here.  So yes, I don't get it either.  I feel like it's mean to say he has nothing going for him, but he has nothing going for him.  

I'm guessing its a combination of realizing "it's time to get married", she will always have the upperhand with him, and she liked how in awe of her he was and that's it. 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by dmc

[caitmcg]

22 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

I can’t believe I thought Kendall could takeover more than the others. He’s like a completely different character froM season one. What’s his endgame? Why did he want the deal?

If they didn’t make a deal, control of the company would be thrown to a shareholder vote, with the likely consequence that none of the family members would gain or retain a power position. I think Kendall's idea has always been that if Sandy and Stewy take majority control, he’d be able to push Logan out and take the top spot — that was his original intention when he first courted them for the hostile takeover in Season 1, before his own part was undone by his getting in the accident and Logan using the coverup to manipulate him out of it. Of course, Sandy has other ideas, and I’m not sure Kendall even knows that one of his demands was that none of the kids gets the CEO spot.

[BlackberryJam]

Didn't Kendall say at one point to Josh, "My dad sucks, but Sandy and Stewy are worse." Or something like that. 

[caitmcg]

8 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Didn't Kendall say at one point to Josh, "My dad sucks, but Sandy and Stewy are worse." Or something like that. 

The whole point of their courting Josh was to avoid having him choose a path that sidelined the Roys, giving Sandy and Stewy control without making a deal that would include the Roys, hence the put-on united front and saying whatever they thought would work on Josh, even if it was BS.

[Pj3422]

Was it just me, or did this episode play like an episode of Veep? 

[Carolina Girl]

6 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv was ready to cave to Sandi/y and Stewy just to get a deal done. She doesn't seem to have the stomach for a fight. Offering up the board seats was a mistake because that was exactly what Logan did not want. Instead of getting creative, Shiv just caved. Yes, it got things done, but even when you are in a position of weakness in a negotiation, you need to act like you're in the position of strength. She looked weak and caved.

Which is why I think they floated that ridiculous "give up the private jets" BS.  It was designed to prey on their fears of a vote and it was such an innocuous demand, they figured the Roys would eventually decide it wasn't worth the risk and come back to the table.  Which is, of course, when they upped the ante re the Board seats.  I'd be very curious what Roman would have done with that negotiation.  

[Bluesky]

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Didn't Kendall say at one point to Josh, "My dad sucks, but Sandy and Stewy are worse." Or something like that. 

First thing these grown ups should do is stop saying “my dad” like they are still 10 years old.  It only serves to remind everyone else the only reason Roman and Shiv and Kendall are even there.   
 

I’m finding it hard to watch the Ken character fall apart pretty much alone in the world without anyone he can really trust.   Does anyone get over being asked by their father to go to jail for them?    And that was only the straw that broke the camel’s back.  Decades of psychological abuse and neglect.  No wonder he’s so sad.  

Edited November 16, 2021 by Bluesky
Used wrong word.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Pj3422 said:

Was it just me, or did this episode play like an episode of Veep? 

YES! I said out loud to myself that this felt so Veep. In general though, this show basically feels like if Veep was trying to pass itself off as a prestigious drama lol.

[Penman61]

Since Logan is really a fucking monster (despite the actor's protestations otherwise), I'm not surprised that any of his kids have hot/cold sympathy for his (perfectly manageable) suffering. He HITS CHILDREN.

[Penman61]

15 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

First thing these grown ups should do is stop saying “my dad” like they are still 10 years old.  It only serves to remind everyone else the only reason Roman and Shiv and Kendall are even there.   
 

ITA, but this tic of the Roy kids is very, very psychodynamically accurate. Just look at the Trump kids: Same pathology, same enmeshment, same dysfunction, same displays of devotion masking seething resentment. Not hard to imagine the same insane stuff playing out when Trump had COVID that we saw in this episode.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Penman61

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, dmc said:

I would like to piggyback on to this comment Re Tom and Shiv... with the fact that I love the movie Pride and Prejudice and it took me forever to realize this is the same actor.  Because as attractive as he is Mr. Darcy is as unappealing as he is here.  So yes, I don't get it either.  I feel like it's mean to say he has nothing going for him, but he has nothing going for him.  

I'm guessing its a combination of realizing "it's time to get married", she will always have the upperhand with him, and she liked how in awe of her he was and that's it. 

 

I think we saw the appeal of Tom in this ep when he took Logan to the bathroom and was the one person able to be caring without looking like he wanted to crawl out of his own skin. Shiv hinted that they got together when she was having her own breakdown.

2 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I’m finding it hard to watch the Ken character fall apart pretty much alone in the world without anyone he can really trust.   Does anyone get over being asked by their father to go to jail for them?    And that was only the straw that broke the camel’s back.  Decades of physiological abuse and neglect.  No wonder he’s so sad.  

And that's also why it's so sad that he's too weak to be the kind of person other people can trust either. With Logan you have to worry that he'll decide you need to be sacrificed and chop your head off. With Kendall  he'll make a big show of how he's a good guy and you're doing the right thing--and he'll mean it--but then he'll flinch and you'll get screwed.

[Bluesky]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

ITA, but this tic of the Roy kids is very, very psychodynamically accurate. Just look at the Trump kids: Same pathology, same enmeshment, same dysfunction, same displays of devotion masking seething resentment. Not hard to imagine the same insane stuff playing out when Trump had COVID that we saw in this episode.

I know why they’re doing it but it’s so ridiculous.    At least let Kendall stop saying it.  He’s no father to him.   

[Lassus]

15 hours ago, Avabelle said:

I can’t believe I thought Kendall could takeover more than the others. He’s like a completely different character froM season one.

I was going to agree with this, but then I thought back to kind of his opening scene.  This meme-lingo talking dude is more like the Kendall we weren't as aware of after his fall from his takeover attempt and all the episodes in which he was broken.  He seems MORE like the weirdo when we met him now than during a lot of time since.

I mean, I also am not going back to watch everything, so maybe I'm just wrong, going on memory.

[Lassus]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think we saw the appeal of Tom in this ep when he took Logan to the bathroom and was the one person able to be caring without looking like he wanted to crawl out of his own skin. Shiv hinted that they got together when she was having her own breakdown.

Tom really seems like the kind of guy who thought it was amazing that now he could act like a weirdo jerk but probably really actually isn't.  This comes out a bit when he's refusing the threesome and having his yacht breakdown and knowing that Shiv isn't that great of a person and the cracks really show.  

I mean, even Roman is sorta like this deeper inside with a smallish heart of gold.  He talks a really big game but is probably at least capable of decency, while Shiv, Kendall, and Connor are just completely amoral.