S01.E06: Sore Must Be the Storm

[Cristofle]

25 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Also, DJ was born in November 2018--18 months after the reunion weekend.  It's possible both brothers slept with her; Billy at the reunion and, later, John, who impregnated her.

Really makes you wonder how many people preyed upon this poor girl. Dylan is the actual worst. Her father appeared to be at best emotionally and mentally abusive. One or both of her adult male cousins may have entered into a sexual relationship with her when she was barely a teenager. I'm not comfortable saying her relationship with the deacon was entirely pure on his part, even if she wasn't totally aware of it, given his past. And again, at best, he didn't care what happened to her so much as protecting himself (dumping her bike in the lake). Even her best friend helped steal and burn her journals. Erin really didn't have a chance.

[Ellaria]

12 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Maybe both Billy and John raped Erin at the reunion or both killed her? Whoever got her that necklace (it just said "Ross" on the receipt) thinks it was some kind of relationship so maybe it carried on for awhile? Or it was a manipulation for her to keep her mouth shut?

12 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

Okay so John must have molested Erin, right?  They're throwing Billy in as a misdirect but John must have been molesting Erin and Billy knew about it.  And I'm assuming a good chunk of it probably happened when Erin was staying at Billy's and then, of course, the reunion where it all started (and thus why John got Erin the super creepy necklace with the date of their "anniversary" on it).    

IMO, the necklace is a ridiculous plot device. That fact that it is being used as the smoking gun stretches credulity. Surely John or Billy would realize that there would be a big problem by giving Erin a necklace that commemorates THAT date. 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Ellaria Sand

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, meira.hand said:

The fact that mare yet again ignored the command to wait for backup only proves it again. 

This point has been made a few times, but when did she previously go into a dangerous situation without backup? I can only recall the incident of Zabel's death, and that started as a simple series of inquiries regarding the various vans. They had no indication they were going into a dangerous situation when they knocked on that guy's door. They wouldn't have thought to ask for backup for such a routine activity.

Am I forgetting something?

[Guest]

As others have pointed out, I know that the show isn’t Mare and Colin of Easttown, but I was still surprised how quickly they steamrolled over Zabel’s death. They don’t have much time, I get that, but I was disappointed that they just had one quick scene with his mom and then immediately threw Mare back with Guy Pearce, although her rejection felt pretty final. I guess we were supposed to infer how much she cared about Colin because she lied to his mom and said he saved her life, when he literally just stood there like a sitting duck and dropped dead lol. But I guess it was nice albeit patronizing of her to try to comfort his mom with a heroic portrait of his final moments. I think Mare is going to end the series alone and she always would have because that’s consistent with her character. I just wish Colin hadn’t died. I have an incredibly lustful bias towards Evan Peters now, sure, but this episode felt empty without him, in spite of the dizzying chaos. 

Between the girl being attacked, the suicide flashback, Siobhan having a breakdown and worst of all, the fake out that the grandson would drown (not to mention Mare hurdling towards a cabin in the woods to face down a confirmed murderer ALONE...Zabel really did die in vain because he taught you nothing), this show really needs to give my adrenal gland a break. 

I’m still baffled by Siobhan getting basically the main B-plot of the series and I hope there’s a payoff. I guess the drama of this show has spoiled me, because if it turns out to be your run-of-the-mill storyline of coping with grief or needing to be emotionally available to your children I will be annoyed, lol. The obsessive text train would have made me think that she had some greater involvement with Erin, possibly. But now that the kidnappings are solved and Billy is revealed as both Erin’s murderer  and the father of her child, what else is left? Why the intense focus on her? For that reason, the Dylan subplot also no longer makes sense. Unless Billy turns out to be a red herring, but I don’t understand why they would go that route after this episode. 

Mare’s friend’s husband sure is clueless. “Hey bro, I know you just confessed to murdering and probably impregnating a teen in our own family, but fuck it, let’s go to a remote cabin for one last hurrah before your life sentence!”

I’m guessing her grandson‘s mom will ask to move in with them for help and that will solve the custody issue. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Guest

[tennisgurl]

My heart seriously stopped when it looked like Drew had drowned in the bathtub, thank God Carrie woke up. This show really does suspense so well, thins go from zero to sixty so fast. Everyone is just talking about random stuff then all of the sudden shit gets crazy. 

I definitely called that the killer of Erin was a different person than the guy who kidnapped the women, and have suspected that something was up with John and Billy for awhile now, but damn it I have no clue what is in that picture! It must be something big if the chief wanted to talk to Mare right away even knowing she was already going after a confessed killer. I first thought that John was taking Billy to the lake as basically a mercy killing so that he would be spared a lengthy trail and prison time as a child rapist, but now I highly suspect that John is the real killer. Possibly Billy really did impregnate Erin and when he said that he killed her, he means he got her killed and not literally killed her, he just feels extreme remorse for what he did to her, and John killed her to cover up who the baby's father is, and is now killing Billy to tie up lose ends and avoid a massive scandal? Billy might have even stumbled across John killing Erin and tried to grab her body or revive her and that was why he had blood all over his clothes, and he blacked it out in shock, or he was high or drunk and cant remember what happened. There was definitely something hinky about John pushing Billy over and over to confess, like he was telling him what to say. It also makes me wonder about the affair, his son saw him leaving the house so he assumed that his dad had restarted an affair with this Sandra person, but its also possible he saw him sneaking out to kill Erin or dispose of evidence. 

As tense as things are, I am really happy that Dawn and Katie are reunited, even as Katie deals with the trauma of her imprisonment. Dawn looks so happy, even as she admits that things are not exactly storybook now that Katie is back. She was pretty messed up even before she was kidnapped, and now she is even more traumatized, hopefully she gets some help soon. 

I definitely think that Dylan is covering up something else uninvolved with Erin's death. Is he dealing drugs with his friend on the side? I don't think he's the killer, but he is certainly a useless piece of crap who will probably end up in jail in the near future. 

Therapy is really doing Mare wonders, even as she continues to grapple with her grief for her son and her feelings of guilt and sadness over Colin dying. She does seem like she is doing better though, being more open and honest about her feelings and trying to give even Carrie a second chance to be a mom. 

"Mare, wait for backup!" *Steps on the gas.* Has any TV cops ever just waited five minutes for backup before confronting the killer? 

Edited May 24, 2021 by tennisgurl

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

The woman ghosting Siobhan, geez, just text Siobhan that it’s over. It’s easy. Even for a coward.

Siobhan and Anne had plans to see a concert that night. Siobhan called and cancelled at the last minute. She then got high and proceeded to call and text Anne multiple times, presumably while Anne was at the show. If someone flaked on me on such short notice, I wouldn't feel obligated to return their calls while I was still at the show. My attitude would be you chose not to come. I'm still enjoying the show. I'm not going to let you ruin it for me just because you decided not to come. I don't consider what Anne did to be ghosting. It hadn't even more than a few hours since the last time they spoke.

[chick binewski]

1 hour ago, BC4ME said:

Unless they were just trying to show more examples of how drugs were ruining people's lives in that town, I don't understand the point of the Beth/Freddie story line so far. Mare didn't really need to find the clothing there. It could've been anywhere that she found the reunion shirt and dates.

I haven't read anything about the series (other than Kate being fond of Wawa but who isn't) but my take has been they're trying to show the fabric of the town -  that there's a difference between bad behavior, desperation and evil - and how Mare deals with individuals. For example, I think Dawn not busting Freddy was kind of believable to me and but citizens cutting their neighbors some serious slack might also explain why Dylan made it a whole 17 years before someone attempted to shoot him.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, Cheyanne11 said:

didn't John show Mare a polaroid of Frank from the engagement party night--and now Jess showed the police a polaroid Erin had? 

If you're talking about when John provided Frank's alibi about how he sang Uptown Girl and peed in a closet, that picture was on John's phone. It wasn't a polaroid.

[IgotThis]

We're so close to the end that I think this is the last attempt at misdirection by the writers.  Billy helped clean up John's mess and John was most likely the killer.  There are a few surprises they can still throw at us but they would be too over the top. 

The biggest question and the elephant in the room for Episode 6 is that no one has asked "Why would Billy kill her"?  I mean, its pretty straight forward, right?  The Dad didn't ask John, John didn't ask his Dad.  John's wife told Mare that Billy was the killer because he incestuously impregnated his cousin's daughter.  Yeah, and?  He decided to wait a few years to kill her?  Why? 

So, the obvious answer (outside of what the writer's are trying to have us believe) is that John impregnated Erin; John & Billy killed Erin & has now manipulated Billy in to taking the wrap for him.   We have all the clues we need to come to this conclusion: John is promiscuous, John (According to Billy) doesn't take responsibility for the messes he makes, etc..

[IgotThis]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

If you're talking about when John provided Frank's alibi about how he sang Uptown Girl and peed in a closet, that picture was on John's phone. It wasn't a polaroid.

Thanks for this.  So we know Frank was out cold.  What we also know is that this may have been an attempt for John to have an alibi as well.  We got drunk that night!  Frank was up bright & early the next day.  Where was Erin's dad?  He was shown entering the house in the early morning that Erin's body was found.  Are they going to address that?  He said he had been home the whole night.

Edited May 24, 2021 by IgotThis

[ElectricBoogaloo]

30 minutes ago, IgotThis said:

Where was Erin's dad?  He was shown entering the house in the early morning that Erin's body was found.  Are they going to address that?  He said he had been home the whole night.

Kenny wasn't shown entering the house early in the morning. The first scene of S1.E2 was Mare at the creek with Erin's body. The second scene was Lori talking to her kid, getting the phone call from Mare about Erin, and waking up John to tell him the news. The scene after that was John and Billy arriving at Kenny's house so Mare could notify him about Erin's death.

You might be thinking of the very first episode. Erin was in the kitchen in the morning when Kenny came home from work.

ETA: Kenny was shown smoking a cigarette outside the house in the morning, just before Erin was found, but I don't necessarily think that means he left. He wasn't shown getting out of his truck so I thought he was just having an early morning smoke (is smoking like coffee? do smokers need to do it first thing in the morning in order to wake up? honestly asking here because I don't smoke).

Edited May 24, 2021 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Penman61]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw a dog walking down the street with a BAG OF GROCERIES?!?

ETA: I should clarify the dog was 1) carrying the bag in its mouth, and 2) the bag was perhaps smaller than a standard grocery bag, coulda been take-out size. BUT I SAW IT I KNOW I SAW IT

Edited May 24, 2021 by Penman61

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 minute ago, Penman61 said:

Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw a dog walking down the street with a BAG OF GROCERIES?!?

I saw the dog walking down the street by itself and thought that it was going to end up being something (like maybe he had a clue in his mouth) but...nothing.

[EtheltoTillie]

Dylan really is awful.  I am now remembering when he was going to put the pillow over the baby's head.  The writers faked us out for a while. 

[cardigirl]

29 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw a dog walking down the street with a BAG OF GROCERIES?!?

It had a bag of something (probably garbage) but I thought it was an atmospheric shot, at most. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by cardigirl

[Sienna]

23 minutes ago, IgotThis said:

Where was Erin's dad?  He was shown entering the house in the early morning that Erin's body was found.  Are they going to address that?  He said he had been home the whole night.

I thought that early morning scene of Kenny was of him smoking a cigarette outside, and looking pissed off as he presumably waits for Erin to get in. I figured it was supposed to show him waiting up for his daughter and stepping out for a smoke, rather than just getting home.

That said, the story he gave about letting Freddie take Erin's things doesn't remotely check out. First off, Kenny does not seem like an altruistic dude. Second, "I told him to go over and pick something out of Erin's stuff" everyone in town knows Freddie is a junkie, is he really gonna just give him free reign to go over to the house and take what he wants? Third, why the fuck would Freddie take a reunion tshirt? Not exactly a good birthday gift, and not something you can pawn. It seems obvious someone told him to get it out of the house.

[aghst]

3 hours ago, HollyG said:

I definitely think both Billy & John are involved in Erin's death and one of them is the baby's father. But I'm not sure at this point which one did what. Also Billy wouldn't help John with the mattress and told him his life was a mess because he couldn't keep his dick in his pants. He told John to clean up his own mess. Was Billy talking about the affair or Erin's baby and death? 

 

Kind of an amazing conspiracy if true.  So Erin was impregnated by a cousin and she accused Dylan of being the father to cover up for her cousins?

Sure it's also protecting herself as well.  But she is suppose to be a teen, since they were all still going to high school?

So a 16 or 17-year old teen, a single mother, knew to rope in Dylan and his family, make them think Dylan was the father.  She told Jesse that Dylan wasn't really the father.

But all this stuff doesn't come out until she's dead?

3 hours ago, GussieK said:

I’m so afraid Mare’s phone will ring and Billy and John will hear. 
Once again she is going in without backup but it seems it’s another decision based on “exigent  circumstances,” someone has to prevent a wrong act.  

I wouldn't be surprised if they can't reach her by cell because she's going out to some uninhabited area where the Ross brothers are fishing.

As a cop though she should have a radio, though I don't know if the radio has better range out to wilderness areas.

[aghst]

33 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Dylan really is awful.  I am now remembering when he was going to put the pillow over the baby's head.  The writers faked us out for a while. 

If you count out all of them, they really do play these games, like Drew in the bath tub, Jesse running from Dylan.

They sprinkle these throughout the season to keep interest and probably get a lot of social media attention.

Manipulative.

[roughing it]

Colin's mom didn't like Mare from the start, probably because she wanted to keep her Colin all to herself - Mare threatened that by the way Colin spoke of her to his mother.  So of course his mom is going to blame Mare for his death.  Wittle Colin could do no wrong.  (I'm guessing she believed the heroic Colin's story that he solved a previous case - that he confessed to Mare was false.)

I think Billy was (secretly or not) in love with Erin, but John was the one who impregnated her and killed her.  If that is true, I don't know why it took until now to kill her, unless she was going to expose him.  I don't think Lori knows any of this (the John part anyway).

There were a couple of mentions upthread of this series continuing but that it was a mistake for "Big Little Lies".  Well, I never watched BLL so I can't relate to that.  However, I think Mare of Easttown has legs to continue - the family's recovery, living in Easttown, another case or cases to solve, etc.  I'm in.

[Snapdragon]

37 minutes ago, Sienna said:

 

That said, the story he gave about letting Freddie take Erin's things doesn't remotely check out. First off, Kenny does not seem like an altruistic dude. Second, "I told him to go over and pick something out of Erin's stuff" everyone in town knows Freddie is a junkie, is he really gonna just give him free reign to go over to the house and take what he wants? Third, why the fuck would Freddie take a reunion tshirt? Not exactly a good birthday gift, and not something you can pawn. It seems obvious someone told him to get it out of the house.

Normally, I would agree with you but I think there are two things to consider here.  One, all of the local adults have known each other since high school (if not all of their lives) and seem to be in the same expanded friend group.  So Freddie isn't just a neighbor or something, he's someone Kenny's been friends with for years.  Freddie had to have either visited or called him in jail, so they must be (or were) somewhat close.  And as we've seen, Kenny isn't exactly the smartest or makes the best life choices, so I could see him thinking it's fine to let his junkie friend go through his house unattended.  

The second thing is, Kenny is awaiting trial for kidnapping and attempted murder (unless he's already been sentenced?  I'm not really sure how much time has passed since the first episode.  I mean, Dylan has already recovered from a bullet wound that almost paralyzed him so...), so he's looking at what, twenty years at least?  I would imagine his house and all that's in it are just going to be sold or given away anyway, so he probably figures why not let Freddie take what he wants.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

As tense as things are, I am really happy that Dawn and Hannah are reunited,

Katie

[HollyG]

Not everything makes sense to me at this point.  But ....

I’m leaning towards John being Erin’s killer and father of her baby. He probably told her to name someone else as the baby's father. (or maybe she thought Dylan was the father early on)  Erin was desperate. She needed money for the baby’s surgery and probably pressed John for help the night she died. He killed her and asked Billy to help move her body or cover it up. That’s how Billy got covered in blood.

So now John is having to move in with his father because his wife threw him out over another affair. That’s why Billy was so angry at John. After all this trouble and covering up, John is still passing his dick around. Look how John tried to manipulate Lori, telling her to stay quiet about Billy killing Erin. He said it’s for the family. He’s lying to everyone and has everyone hushed up so he can control who knows what, and what information gets out.

[Dminches]

I have found the therapy sessions to not only be so well done but also authentic.  The therapist knows that Mare keeps everything bottled in and until she starts to release some of her pain she will not be able to move forward.  Losing a child is the ultimate loss but not talking about it is like sealing the top of a pot of boiling water.

Mare wants to shed some of her agony but doesn’t really know how to.  The therapist is trying to show her the way.

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw a dog walking down the street with a BAG OF GROCERIES?!?

ETA: I should clarify the dog was 1) carrying the bag in its mouth, and 2) the bag was perhaps smaller than a standard grocery bag, coulda been take-out size. BUT I SAW IT I KNOW I SAW IT

Oh, I saw that dog, too!  And then thought about that dog for the remainder of the episode.

Edited to add:  As much as I admire the actor who plays Dylan (seriously, go watch him in The Society - ridiculously appealing guy), I felt like all of the Dylan subplot was a waste of time last night.  The questioning scene, the extended chase scene...why?  If the narrative consequence was supposed to have been Jesse's handing over the picture, why not just have Jesse's mom find the picture or have Jesse reconsider?  The episode felt busy and fragmented.  Not its best showing.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Fuzzy Logic

[EtheltoTillie]

6 minutes ago, Fuzzy Logic said:

Oh, I saw that dog, too!  And then thought about that dog for the remainder of the episode.

I live for dog sightings.  I have to rewind and check it out. 

[IgotThis]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Kenny wasn't shown entering the house early in the morning. The first scene of S1.E2 was Mare at the creek with Erin's body. The second scene was Lori talking to her kid, getting the phone call from Mare about Erin, and waking up John to tell him the news. The scene after that was John and Billy arriving at Kenny's house so Mare could notify him about Erin's death.

You might be thinking of the very first episode. Erin was in the kitchen in the morning when Kenny came home from work.

ETA: Kenny was shown smoking a cigarette outside the house in the morning, just before Erin was found, but I don't necessarily think that means he left. He wasn't shown getting out of his truck so I thought he was just having an early morning smoke (is smoking like coffee? do smokers need to do it first thing in the morning in order to wake up? honestly asking here because I don't smoke).

"Kenny wasn't shown entering the house early in the morning."

Yes he was, you're mistaken. Kenny was shown stumbling in to the house in the morning Erin's body was shown in the creek. It was at the end of epiosde 1 (The day the body was found).  The other scene you referenced with Erin was her cooking dinner for her dad the night before when he came home from work.  According to her phone it was 8:30ish in the early evening.  She then asked her dad if she could borrow the truck.

I'm not sure what you mean by ETA.  Anyways, yes, it doesn't mean he left anywhere but they sure gave the impression he did.  He had a change of clothes too.  Did he get up, smoke, and fail to realize Erin wasn't home?  I guess we may never know.  The body was found by a jogger and she was officially pronounced dead at 7:14 am by a medic.

 

 

[peachmangosteen]

18 minutes ago, IgotThis said:

I'm not sure what you mean by ETA.  

It just means ‘edited to add.’

To whomever said that Billy had previously been shown with that tackle box and gun, do you know what ep that was in? Because the scene in this ep seemed so obviously to be showing Billy realizing that John was bringing a gun and suspecting that John was planning on killing him so it would be so weird to me if that tackle box and gun had been previously shown to be Billy’s.

I’ve suspected John since ep 1 so if he does turn out to be the killer then I think the show did a fantastic job of making it plausible while also keeping it from being obvious.

I really hope that Billy and John didn’t both have a sexual relationship with Erin. I’m annoyed enough that they’ve gone the incest route, let’s not double down on it for fuck’s sake!

I really didn’t appreciate the fake out with Drew.

I am struck by how fantastic the casting is looks wise. I mean, the little boy playing Drew looks eerily like the Kevin actor. The boy playing Lori’s son looks just like her. Erin resembles Kenny and I even see some Kate Winslet in the Siobhan actor. 

I’m with those that are kinda hoping they pull a Big Little Lies and give this a season 2. I would love to watch Mare coming to terms with Kevin’s death, the fallout of what’s happening with the Ross family, Dawn and Katie navigating life now, etc.

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

IMO, the necklace is a ridiculous plot device. That fact that it is being used as the smoking gun stretches credulity. Surely John or Billy would realize that there would be a big problem by giving Erin a necklace that commemorates THAT date. 

 

The jewelry itself isn't weird (it's a common enough tool of predators to give their victims some sort of gift) but I agree that putting that particular date on it was stupid, and unlike a predator who obviously has to work at not getting caught. Erin was with her family that weekend, so getting a romantic gift in relation to it would raise a red flag to any family member who was with her (I may be giving her father too much credit when it comes to observation skills about his daughter but still). It might have worked better if the jewelry had had some other engraving (perhaps just Erin's initials) and Mare had traced the charm back to that date by the sale of the item.

Setting the stupidity of the date aside, I still think the charm itself seems more like a John move. He's the manipulative one. Erin was a vulnerable child with an absent father and a dead mother, being manipulated by an an adult in her life, including with gifts. 

[Sienna]

15 minutes ago, IgotThis said:

 yes, it doesn't mean he left anywhere but they sure gave the impression he did.  He had a change of clothes too.  Did he get up, smoke, and fail to realize Erin wasn't home?  I guess we may never know.  The body was found by a jogger and she was officially pronounced dead at 7:14 am by a medic.

 

What I took away from that scene is that he was bleary-eyed and staring into the distance, projecting a vibe of "I'm a pissed off drunk, it's daybreak, and my teenmom daughter never came home last night, she's in deep shit the second that bike hits the driveway."

Then he's shown walking through the front door and into the living room, but not unlocking the door, which suggests he was home and stepped out for a cig/to look for signs of Erin coming home, rather than just getting in himself.

50 minutes ago, Snapdragon said:

Normally, I would agree with you but I think there are two things to consider here.  One, all of the local adults have known each other since high school (if not all of their lives) and seem to be in the same expanded friend group.  So Freddie isn't just a neighbor or something, he's someone Kenny's been friends with for years.  Freddie had to have either visited or called him in jail, so they must be (or were) somewhat close.  And as we've seen, Kenny isn't exactly the smartest or makes the best life choices, so I could see him thinking it's fine to let his junkie friend go through his house unattended.  

The second thing is, Kenny is awaiting trial for kidnapping and attempted murder (unless he's already been sentenced?  I'm not really sure how much time has passed since the first episode.  I mean, Dylan has already recovered from a bullet wound that almost paralyzed him so...), so he's looking at what, twenty years at least?  I would imagine his house and all that's in it are just going to be sold or given away anyway, so he probably figures why not let Freddie take what he wants.

Could be, but this is also a dude who wouldn't pay for his grandson's surgery, and bitched about having to buy diapers and wipes (which he apparently wasn't super regular about, if the story of Erin crying to Frank about needing baby supplies is to be believed). It's quite possible that with all he's lost (and what he's facing) he decided nothing really matters, but somehow he seems like the type of guy who'd be too petty for that. Let Freddie have Erin's things? Sure. Tell him to go over to the house, knowing he likely wouldn't stop at those? I just don't see it. He also sounded a bit stilted when he said that to Mare, like he wasn't being totally natural/honest.

 

[poeticlicensed]

14 hours ago, aghst said:

Why would Billy confess if he didn't do it?  John prodded him to say it out loud.

But did he confess to killing her? My money is on John. I think he killed her and got Billy to help him dispose of the body. Billy is now guilt ridden and wants to confess and John is taking him fishing to get rid of him and make it look like suicide. John is the daddy. 

[SomeTameGazelle]

4 hours ago, GussieK said:

I’m so afraid Mare’s phone will ring and Billy and John will hear. 
Once again she is going in without backup but it seems it’s another decision based on “exigent  circumstances,” someone has to prevent a wrong act.  

I'm scratching my head regarding why Mare has to rush off alone to apprehend Billy. What makes the situation so urgent? She didn't say anything about being afraid Billy would harm John or vice versa. I know Mare only just got what she believes is convincing evidence but there doesn't seem to be any reason to think he is trying to escape or about to kill again.

Obviously the paper/photo Jess revealed puts a different twist on what Mare thinks she knows and now the chief has to update her in a way that achieves maximum drama. I'm feeling a little jerked around by Drew in the bathtub and Dylan with the pillow and skeptical that I am going to be satisfed with the denouement of all this mess.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

5 minutes ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

I'm scratching my head regarding why Mare has to rush off alone to apprehend Billy. What makes the situation so urgent? She didn't say anything about being afraid Billy would harm John or vice versa. I know Mare only just got what she believes is convincing evidence but there doesn't seem to be any reason to think he is trying to escape or about to kill again.

Obviously the paper/photo Jess revealed puts a different twist on what Mare thinks she knows and now the chief has to update her in a way that achieves maximum drama. I'm feeling a little jerked around by Drew in the bathtub and Dylan with the pillow and skeptical that I am going to be satisfed with the denouement of all this mess.

 

She didn't say it but I think she believes John will hurt Billy.  

[Penman61]

If in the show (NOT in previews) TPTB are presenting fraudulently edited conversations (e.g., between Billy and John, John and Lori, et al.), isn't that...well, cheating just a bit?

I'm thinking specifically of the "I need to hear you say it" back-and-forth between John and Billy. It never occurred to me that TPTB had deliberately omitted a part of the conversation that would make you think anything other than "Billy is reluctantly confessing, and John is helping him." If the point of that interaction--not the scene we were shown but the whole (fictional, ofc) interaction--was that John was coercing/manipulating Billy into taking the fall...well, show us the whole goddamn scene, ok?

I'll accept some misleading editing in previews (one of the many reasons I avoid previews and don't like them discussed in the eps threads), but in the actual episode? I just wonder if that's a bit unfair to the viewer.

(And I realize even entire stories are built around audience/character misreadings--Dolores Claiborne, Let Him Have It (it's in the title!) come to mind, but this story is winding up, and presenting misleadingly edited conversations at this point seems wrong to me. I feel trifled with!)

[Kirsty]

8 hours ago, raven said:

WHY on earth would John, currently separated from his wife, tell her about Billy's confession and ask her to promise not to tell Mare?  There is no reason for that

I totally agree with you, which is why I think John was counting on Lori telling Mare. He knows that telling Lori is like leaving a message for the cops! The message that "Billy killed Erin" is actually more believable coming from Lori. And, true to form, her face was like an open book to Mare, and she sang like a canary and barely needed any prompting! Like most people here, I'm assuming that John is guilty either of fathering Erin's child or of killing her, or both, and he wants to pin it on Billy.

6 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Did Mare really think that Zabel’s mother would be in a receptive mood so soon after his death?

I think Mare did it because it's the right thing to do. Mare has plenty of faults but she's no coward and she wasn't going to hide away or avoid Zabel's mother. It's much more in character for Mare to take the bull by the horns, call to his mother's door and say sorry to the woman's face. It was a way of taking responsibility for her part in the way he died. I also think that if Mare is feeling guilt over Zabel's death, then she might even welcome someone blaming her for it and saying it aloud to her face. She may feel she deserves it.

As for Mrs. Zabel, I don't think she would have treated a male colleague of Colin's that way. But then maybe a male colleague wouldn't have had the same power over Colin that Mare had? For Zabel's mom, Mare is the worst combination of: a suspended detective whose poor performance is the reason Colin was assigned to the case in the first place; a woman who used Colin, who took advantage of his feelings to gather information from him and by doing so made a fool of him; the one person who survived the experience that killed him; someone who should never have been there the day he died (due to her suspension); the oldest and most experienced detective in the room when he died so the one who bears the most responsibility; and an older woman so unsuitable as a romantic partner for Colin as to be the daughter-in-law of her nightmares! And any one of those would be difficult to get past on its own.

Siobhan had the previous five episodes to go nuts, get high, get drunk, and tell her mother she blames her for finding Kevin's body. They shouldn't have put it in the same episode where Mare coincidentally gives her therapist a blow-by-blow account of what happened that day. Or if they had to be in the same episode, have one incident spark the other. Have Mare tell the therapist about it *because* of Siobhan telling Mare about it. As it is, it's an unlikely coincidence. The timing was too convenient and unnatural, as though this was the healing and growing episode.

Quote

I really didn’t appreciate the fake out with Drew.

Same. That was nearly distressing to watch, and I don't even have kids. I hope it has ramifications for the custody story so it wasn't purely to upset viewers.

Was anyone else distracted by Mare's hair in the scene where Richard visits?! I was trying to figure out if it was wet out of the shower, or if the show had gone way overboard making it look greasy as hell! One small thing I love is the way Winslet slumps in her chair as Mare. Her sitting posture is great for the role.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Kirsty

[DiabLOL]

I find it hard to picture someone who really doesn’t want to be found out engraving a date of the significant event on a piece of solid gold jewelry to gift to a teenager.

I also can’t imagine a jeweler remembering any customer’s face especially one who was in years ago. Sure he recognizes his own work but any specific customer? No.

Also I found Lori agreeing to cover up rape incest and murder for her estranged husband’s brother way too fast and smooth: something else is up with her.

Did Billy ever say he was DJs father? I don’t remember anything like that. He’s an extremely tormented blackout drunk so easy to set up and manipulate in general.

I can’t imagine anyone giving out of control junkie Freddy access to their home! Something else is up with that.

I can fully understand Mare’s guilt and grief over Colin’s death and I think she shouldn’t have gone there unarmed with him. I get why Colin’s possessive controlling mother would blame her but I thought the slapping was way out of line. Colin was promoted because of his lie. He was too green to go to that house. I’m still devastated over his death but I don’t think it’s fair that Mare carries the entire burden. Didn’t Colin, an adult man, live with his mother? There’s so much baggage to unpack why he did all the overreaching he did. Perhaps not a little was driven by his pain from getting dumped by his ex fiancée as well. Anyway, I miss him.

[cardigirl]

56 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

It just means ‘edited to add.’

To whomever said that Billy had previously been shown with that tackle box and gun, do you know what ep that was in? Because the scene in this ep seemed so obviously to be showing Billy realizing that John was bringing a gun and suspecting that John was planning on killing him so it would be so weird to me if that tackle box and gun had been previously shown to be Billy’s.

You're right, I think. Maybe I was fooled by previews, and thought I saw Billy looking at it before, in an episode, when we all started to suspect him.  *confusion sets in* 

I'll have to rewatch all six episodes now.  

[BrownBear2012]

1 hour ago, HollyG said:

Not everything makes sense to me at this point.  But ....

I’m leaning towards John being Erin’s killer and father of her baby. He probably told her to name someone else as the baby's father. (or maybe she thought Dylan was the father early on)  Erin was desperate. She needed money for the baby’s surgery and probably pressed John for help the night she died. He killed her and asked Billy to help move her body or cover it up. That’s how Billy got covered in blood.

So now John is having to move in with his father because his wife threw him out over another affair. That’s why Billy was so angry at John. After all this trouble and covering up, John is still passing his dick around. Look how John tried to manipulate Lori, telling her to stay quiet about Billy killing Erin. He said it’s for the family. He’s lying to everyone and has everyone hushed up so he can control who knows what, and what information gets out.

Could be right...but I'm still thinking there has some angle with sex trafficking of these teen age girls that involves these older men and younger guys like Dylan...just a thought.

[Pike Ludwell]

So many are defending Mrs. Zabel vigorous reaction. Fact is, at the scene, he acted with such gross incompetence he should probably not have been on the force to begin with. It was to such an extent that it absolves Mare of responsibility. Mrs Zabel needs to recognize he was in the wrong profession and she, who apparently believes he was led around into a situation he couldn't handle, and was an easily manipulable, weak lad, should bear some responsibility for his death. She should have talked him out of joining the police since it's a dangerous job, and she knew he was that weak.

[blixie]

Quote

I'll accept some misleading editing in previews 

I didn't find the Billy/John conversation misleading only ambiguous, I thought it was meant to mimic the way he handled his son Sean, aka gaslighting and bribery more less, aka you have to be quiet or else everything is your fault. You have to confess or everyone will find out what happened at the cabin/family reunion. John is a manipulative liar, a cheater, and probably a child abuser, and a murderer. I mean my real issue is that I don't think Tippet is playing anything underneath, but I did just listen to a podcast about the BTK killer and serial killers in general that emphasized that to those kind of sociopaths, the only utility of other people is in to serve their own needs desires, and that the really good ones can't be made by simple interaction, they can shift faces in seconds, and they aren't anchored to any "identity".

[DiabLOL]

11 minutes ago, Pike Ludwell said:

So many are defending Mrs. Zabel vigorous reaction. Fact is, at the scene, he acted with such gross incompetence he should probably not have been on the force to begin with. It was to such an extent that it absolves Mare of responsibility. Mrs Zabel needs to recognize he was in the wrong profession and she, who apparently believes he was led around into a situation he couldn't handle, and was an easily manipulable, weak lad, should bear some responsibility for his death. She should have talked him out of joining the police since it's a dangerous job, and she knew he was that weak.

I mostly agree with you. I think his mom was way overinvolved and overinvested in his life. She took his previous  heartbreak too hard and viewed any new woman as another potential danger. I still think Mare shouldn’t have gone with him as she wasn’t allowed to be there and had no gun. Especially when he confessed to her she should have known he wasn’t up to par for such a potentially dangerous situation.

[blixie]

Quote

WHY on earth would John, currently separated from his wife, tell her about Billy's confession and ask her to promise not to tell Mare? 

Again I don't think the gonna kill Billy part is separate from the told Lori he confessed part. I assume, he WANTED her to tell Mare (at least the confession part if not the part where they were at), and that he'd say Billy committed suicide, he's hoping that grift holds, and I honestly can accept he actually is that dumb/arrogant. He's thinking everything that looks good on him looks even better on Drunk Sad Billy, and even if they run DNA on DJ that it will be close enough for the cops. It really is interesting to see the clues that it's John, with few of those clues being behavioral winks to the audience.

[Refresh]

1 hour ago, poeticlicensed said:

My money is on John. I think he killed her and got Billy to help him dispose of the body. Billy is now guilt ridden and wants to confess and John is taking him fishing to get rid of him and make it look like suicide. John is the daddy. 

John being the Dad makes a lot of sense. I have a speculation but trying to add logic to it.  If we remember that Jess reported it was Frank, I could see a time (not shown) where Erin & Jess were somewhere near Frank & John (since they are best friends). Maybe Erin tells Jess something like "he's here", and Jess assumes it's not Erin's relative that's the father of the baby, so process of elimination it's Frank? OR this is part of a bigger set up by Jess/Dylan/Other dude and she's known it was John all along. 

I have this feeling it's going to be some Murder Durder on the Philly Express type of thing where they all had a part.

Maybe: Erin was being pimped by Dylan (and maybe it relates to drugs) or he was using her profile to lure men and would then rip them off? John found out by seeing her profile on the site (because maybe he was looking for girls for himself), and Erin gets summoned out to this to the park because there's a confrontation between Dylan/John. I get the feeling that the killing is accidental but the cover up is not. And the cover up has to do with other details Dylan and John, respectively, don't want people to know. 

[ridethemaverick]

7 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Did Mare really think that Zabel’s mother would be in a receptive mood so soon after his death? 

Right.

I agree with most that his death isn't Mare's fault and I think the meeting might have gone relatively well/slap free had Mare not said "if it means anything, your son saved my life." I cringed at that because I knew it was the last thing Zabel's mother wanted to hear at that moment. I think that caused the slap more than anything else.

[Dminches]

25 minutes ago, Refresh said:

John being the Dad makes a lot of sense. I have a speculation but trying to add logic to it.  If we remember that Jess reported it was Frank, I could see a time (not shown) where Erin & Jess were somewhere near Frank & John (since they are best friends). Maybe Erin tells Jess something like "he's here", and Jess assumes it's not Erin's relative that's the father of the baby, so process of elimination it's Frank? OR this is part of a bigger set up by Jess/Dylan/Other dude and she's known it was John all along. 

I have this feeling it's going to be some Murder Durder on the Philly Express type of thing where they all had a part.

Maybe: Erin was being pimped by Dylan (and maybe it relates to drugs) or he was using her profile to lure men and would then rip them off? John found out by seeing her profile on the site (because maybe he was looking for girls for himself), and Erin gets summoned out to this to the park because there's a confrontation between Dylan/John. I get the feeling that the killing is accidental but the cover up is not. And the cover up has to do with other details Dylan and John, respectively, don't want people to know. 

Plus, to a teenager Frank and John look alike.  Adult male with a salt and pepper beard.

Good points.

 

People don’t really expect Zabel’s mom to act rationally days after her son was killed?  Maybe in 5 or 10 years.  Plus, she already viewed Mare as someone who wasn’t good for her son.

 

[ShadowHunter]

I think Zabel's mom acted perfectly normal. It's not like she took out a bunch of knifes and stabbed her. She slapped her and yelled at her. It was rough but it made sense. Grief can make the most rational person lose it.  Let's not forget Mare stole drugs from the evidence locker room and planted them on Carrie. An irrational and stupid decision made out of fear of losing her grandson. 

[paigow]

20 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

I think Zabel's mom acted perfectly normal. It's not like she took out a bunch of knifes and stabbed her. She slapped her and yelled at her. It was rough but it made sense. Grief can make the most rational person lose it.

Mare: Chief, I found the missing link in that heroin case. The cash supplier.

Chief: Who is it? Philly Mob?

Mare: Mrs. Zabel

Edited May 24, 2021 by paigow

[EtheltoTillie]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I saw the dog walking down the street by itself and thought that it was going to end up being something (like maybe he had a clue in his mouth) but...nothing.

Please have pity on me.  What is the time stamp for the dog sighting?  I can't find it.  Thanks. 

[Penman61]

22 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

I think Zabel's mom acted perfectly normal. It's not like she took out a bunch of knifes and stabbed her. She slapped her and yelled at her. It was rough but it made sense. Grief can make the most rational person lose it.  Let's not forget Mare stole drugs from the evidence locker room and planted them on Carrie. An irrational and stupid decision made out of fear of losing her grandson. 

I don’t like “normalizing” violence, especially when someone is giving you condolences, however unwelcome. And these weren’t wailing-in-grief-so-hard-I-don’t-even-know-what-I’m-doing flails; these were violent slaps—two of them!—from total stony silence. Shame on her. Mare didn’t kill her son; that scumbag rapist/murderer did. Save your slaps for HIM, Mom Zabel.

[h2ogirl]

2 hours ago, Kirsty said:

I totally agree with you, which is why I think John was counting on Lori telling Mare. He knows that telling Lori is like leaving a message for the cops! The message that "Billy killed Erin" is actually more believable coming from Lori. And, true to form, her face was like an open book to Mare, and she sang like a canary and barely needed any prompting! Like most people here, I'm assuming that John is guilty either of fathering Erin's child or of killing her, or both, and he wants to pin it on Billy.

This! I think John is the big baddie here. And he's been married to Lori long enough that he knows she'll tell Mare, pretty much immediately. 

[Penman61]

16 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Please have pity on me.  What is the time stamp for the dog sighting?  I can't find it.  Thanks. 

5:03. Lower RH side.