S01.E05: Truth

[paigow]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So glad that Bucky turned him into the Dora Milaje who are taking him to The Raft, which will hopefully be harder for him to escape from. 

The Raft is pretty weak... Rogers neutralized the guards single-handed to break everyone out... Bucky should be able to do the same if he needs Zemo free again...

[revbfc]

Did Sam fly commercial with the shield?  I know it’s too big for the overhead bin, or under the seat, and I KNOW he wouldn’t check it.

Maybe the jacket closet in first class?  Yeah, that’s probably it.

[VCRTracking]

[Lebanna]

3 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Whaaaaaaat?

Melinda will have things to say.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Lebanna

[Cobalt Stargazer]

34 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I hope the last episode means the end of Karli.  Now her I dislike.  A terrorist with a messiah complex and a hypocrit all in one.

Eh. In some ways, John is more sympathetic than Karli, but only in the sense in that he's literally never had to struggle before, and I'm sure he's never made mistakes on the level he has here in his life. We don't know what Karli was like before this, or before the Snap, come to that, just that she wanted to teach. The undoing of the Snap upended society again, robbed her of the opportunities she'd been granted. Opportunities that Walker had probably always benefited from, by the way. It is true that the military and the government have had a major hand in screwing John up, but I don't think they're the ones who made him a condescending dick. If nothing else, that he's fucked up this much this quickly and either can't or won't take responsibility for it isn't any better than Karli being willing to kill whoever she has to for the results she wants. John's already murdered someone, and he wasn't pulling his punches with Bucky and Sam in the slightest. Hell, he ripped the Falcon wings right off of Sam's back. It's only tragic for so long.

 

[Chyromaniac]

Aww- all it took was getting the guys out to the yard to toss the ball shield around...

[catrice2]

12 hours ago, vb68 said:

I thought it was very powerful, both for himself and Bucky, to hear Sam say "I know it may come as a surprise, but it really doesn't matter what Steve thought".

Both of them need to give up the ghost.

Same!

[silverstream]

Meh, I wasn't in the slightest bit impressed with either Bucky or Sam in the opening scene.  Walker wasn't threatening anyone or even running away, there was absolutely no need to start a fight and escalate the situation when they knew Walker was already unstable from what he'd done, his friend's death and likely from recently taking the SSS. They could have just sat there and waited until the military (or whoever it was that eventually picked him up) got there. They could have even called the psychologist from the first couple of episodes to see if maybe she could help calm him down. There was no need to wrest the shield from him by force at that moment, it wasn't the trigger to a bomb he was threatening to detonate. Plus, the slow pan up as Walker lifts his head and we see his expression change when Sam says "you've got to give me the shield" pretty much emphasizes that that's when things started to go bad. Pretty sure that scene was in there just to have the obligatory fight scene per episode (and even then they could have given Bucky and Sam an actual reason to attack).

Walker was definitely thrown under the bus by the higher-ups - you can't tell me that the US military can't spin "Captain America kills known, proven terrorist" into a story that the majority of the public would be okay with. On the contrary, there's a good chance not a small number of people would probably find the *way* he did it cool as well. (Obligatory mention that what Walker did was obviously wrong and awful, I just have a hard time believing a lot of people - possibly the majority - would be terribly upset about it considering all the surrounding circumstances.)

On the plus side, I absolutely loved the boat scenes and almost everything that came after.

Edited April 16, 2021 by silverstream

[catrice2]

4 hours ago, LJones41 said:

I'm afraid that this series has jumped the shark, as far as the narrative is concerned.  No amount of good action or acting can really save it.  And why isn't Bucky in prison for helping Zemo escape?

Hmm because even John Walker admitted that they don't have any evidence of that, and as Bucky told Sam, technically he broke himself out. There was nothing they have to prove Bucky helped.  In the  flashbacks, the most he did was drop the note to start the fight, Zemo did the rest.  No one could prove that the time that they were together Sam and Bucky were not trying to bring him in... and no one but them knows that Zemo shot the doctor, and not even Sam or Bucky know he shot Karli. 

The rest of your complaints may be valid, but this one ahs already been explained. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

It just occurred to me:  Uncle Sam is going to be our Captain America. Am I the only one who's just cluing into this kinda play on words/metaphor/symbolism  now?    Because according to wiki: "Since the early 19th century, Uncle Sam has been a popular symbol of the US government in American culture and a manifestation of patriotic emotion."

...

What is the Raft?
 

I didn't put the two and two together about Uncle Sam until the previews this time around. 

The Raft is a secret prison that is in international waters where people basically have no rights to speak of. Much of Team Cap was incarcerated there in Civil War till Cap broke them out. 

[paigow]

Bucky and Sam will save everyone at the GRC meeting EXCEPT for bearded Senator Dickhead. Karli will throw a grenade, Walker will throw Dickhead on top of it.

[Cerulean]

I’m very confused by the physics of the shield. It can wedge itself into a tree, but bounce off some padding. And I get that Bucky can catch it with his metal hand (not his dominant hand- a nice little moment) but how can Sam catch it without breaking something?

I’m excited to see Sam and Bucky use the shield together  

Also, I finally figured out who John Walker reminds me of: Hermey the Dentist

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Cerulean
Silly typo

[Bill1978]

I was so caught up in that opening fight, that when Sam's Falcon wings were ripped off I let out a gasp and an ouch. Before I remembered that the wings aren't physically part of Sam's body.

What is in the box? Initially I thought it was a repaired falcon suit until I remembered that Sam didn't keep the broken one. Then I decided it was some new tech Captain Suit. But now I'm back onto it just being a brand new Falcon suit. I think I would prefer it to be a Capt. America suit and that Torres (is that his name) becomes the new Falcon.

I was pleasantly surprised with the cameo. I had heard no whisperings at all about that appearance. It's amazing how Hollywood can keep stuff like that secret when they want to without anybody leaking anything to the public.

I am confused with Sharon, has seen gone to the dark side?

And this episode reminded me of the struggle Bucky has with being honest with his apartment neighbour.

Can't believe there are so many little loose ends that need to be tidied up in one episode

[Cobalt Stargazer]

55 minutes ago, silverstream said:

Meh, I wasn't in the slightest bit impressed with either Bucky or Sam in the opening scene.  Walker wasn't threatening anyone or even running away, there was absolutely no need to start a fight and escalate the situation when they knew [b]Walker was already unstable from what he'd done, his friend's death[/b] and likely from recently taking the SSS.

It's Bucky's good fortune that we didn't have the "if someone you care about gets killed, it's okay to kill the person who did it" rule in place when [b]Civil War[/b] happened, isn't it? Alternately, I wonder how many people who are pointing out the circumstances of this would have been fine with it if Tony *had* killed Barnes, because it's the exact same situation. Niko didn't kill Lamar, Karli did, and even then it was an accident. If he's so close to the edge that a minute and a half after he takes the serum he beats a guy to death, he wasn't that far away from the edge to begin with,

I would add that while John Walker is allowed to lose his shit as much as he likes, Captain America isn't. As light as the shield may be, the responsibilities that come with it are heavy. Steve knew that, and Sam knows it. John being ill-prepared and a bad fit for the mantle isn't really anyone's fault, and he should never have been offered the role to begin with, but the fact that he's probably never really had to work for anything means he's also ill-prepared for failure, and he lacks the humility to know when he should stand down, as was proven in this episode. If he's nothing without the shield, he shouldn't have it.

[Hana Chan]

If the show follows some of the comic storylines, we can expect to see some of this in the future...

Spoiler

1) Torres will become the new Falcon since Sam will be Captain America. The fact that Sam gave Torres his damaged flight suit hints at this pretty strongly.

2) Zemo being sent to the Raft hints that he'll play a role in the Thunderbolts, since that's the team that Thunderbolt Ross runs out of the Raft inmate population. Sort of the MCU version of the Suicide Squad.

I'm also expecting that since Bucky's relationship with Wakanda has been reaffirmed that he may have a role to play in future Black Panther storylines.

[Penman61]

Sam's "You touch my seester and I keeel you" is really retrograde and sexist and stupid, especially since she seems like the last person who needs "protecting."

[silverstream]

3 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

It's Bucky's good fortune that we didn't have the "if someone you care about gets killed, it's okay to kill the person who did it" rule in place when [b]Civil War[/b] happened, isn't it? Alternately, I wonder how many people who are pointing out the circumstances of this would have been fine with it if Tony *had* killed Barnes, because it's the exact same situation. Niko didn't kill Lamar, Karli did, and even then it was an accident. If he's so close to the edge that a minute and a half after he takes the serum he beats a guy to death, he wasn't that far away from the edge to begin with,

I would add that while John Walker is allowed to lose his shit as much as he likes, Captain America isn't. As light as the shield may be, the responsibilities that come with it are heavy. Steve knew that, and Sam knows it. John being ill-prepared and a bad fit for the mantle isn't really anyone's fault, and he should never have been offered the role to begin with, but the fact that he's probably never really had to work for anything means he's also ill-prepared for failure, and he lacks the humility to know when he should stand down, as was proven in this episode. If he's nothing without the shield, he shouldn't have it.

Not sure where in my post you got the impression that I think what Walker did was okay - it obviously isn't. All I said was that the fight at the beginning of the episode didn't have to happen, and that it was in fact Bucky and Sam who escalated *that particular situation* to the point where it became a fight (and that acting, direction and editing clearly support that).

If there's a person running around hurting people but now it looks like they're winding down, I'm not gonna do something that makes them mad and likely to hurt people again on purpose. The fact that I choose not to do that doesn't mean that person was right to hurt people in the first place.

[moonorchid]

This episode was much more emotional that I expected. After the fight between Sam, Bucky, and Walker...when Sam tried to clean the blood off the shield...I don’t know if it’s meant to be interpreted like this but I def keep thinking of Steve Rogers when I see that shield and that scene just all of a sudden made me sad. Sad for the friend that Sam lost. Anthony Mackie is doing some of his best work here. 

They kind of touch on this later in the yard between Sam and Bucky. The talk they had was amazing and long over due. I love that Sam is going back to his counselor roots with Bucky, cause honestly I think outside of Steve, Sam is the only person he’d really listen to and digest what advice and guidance given. I like how they are trying to figure out what their relationship will be with out Steve but that they know they’ll have one. It really felt like they were finally letting Steve go. Recognizing that Steve wasn’t perfect and didn’t think of everything completely. He wasn’t wrong to pick Sam,  but Steve def never thought of the implications of a black man holding that shield and I like Bucky acknowledging that and apologizing for being resentful of Sam not just jumping at the chance to fulfill Steve’s wishes. 

In some ways, sam has the same naïveté as Steve, I like how he’s not cynical, but he always thinks there’s justice to be had, and for Isaiah Bradley, that ship has sailed. He’s valid in how he feels about the shield. Sam isn’t jilted enough to see a possible bigger picture. He knows what it’ll mean for the next generation to see him hold that shield. I’m glad Sam came to the decision in his own time. 

The cameo doesn’t mean anything to me yet. 

John Walker...I side eye anyone who watches what he did last week and like him better for it. Marvel isn’t ambiguous about how the audience is supposed to feel in that moment. But Wyatt Russell (who is so distractingly similar to his father whom I’ve been attracted to my entire life, lol) does a really good job of having layers. He very much got punished so harshly because it was public and he was recorded cause I don’t think anything major would have happened if it wasn’t. As a spouse of a navy vet, I literally said “oh shit” when they said they were stripping him of his benefits. That is rough! John Walker keeps reminding me of guys who all their life was “good” till they weren’t. It’s a life of privilege and entitlement that is walkers downfall. He truly believes in what he did.

For a show that is more in marvels wheelhouse, it’s depth is refreshing.

Edited April 17, 2021 by moonorchid

[mac123x]

12 hours ago, swanpride said:

Having Walker all beat up in court was some BS. His healing factor should have taken care of the scratches long ago. That was only a ploy to make the audience feel for him.

My immediate reaction was "Teddy Kennedy wearing a neck brace".  I thought the arm in a sling was for show to the press/congress, but he was still wearing it at Lemar's family's house.  

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

So who is this Contessa person? "You can call me Val, but don't. Just keep it in your head." Is she well known in the comics or something, because I have no idea of who she's supposed to be.

That was so random.  I thought it was a hook for season 2.  Hopefully she's NOT the Power Broker, because (as I mentioned last week) introducing your main villain with 20 pages left to go in the novel is bad writing.

 

[bethy]

15 hours ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

Bucky flirting with Sarah was a treat. I could have done with more of that! 

I, honestly, a couple of weeks ago thought, "I might ship Bucky and Sarah" when they hadn't even met yet, so I loved this. And Sam's reaction. 

14 hours ago, vb68 said:

I thought it was very powerful, both for himself and Bucky, to hear Sam say "I know it may come as a surprise, but it really doesn't matter what Steve thought."

I said, "Yes," when Sam said that. So, true and just what Bucky needed to hear. And it was a great reminder of what Sam said when wanting to talk to Karli on his own, that he'd counseled traumatized vets. I loved that you could see Bucky really listening to what Sam was saying. 

5 hours ago, Absurda said:

It was so wonderful seeing Bucky genuinely smile.  Loved Bucky apologizing to Sam and Sam counseling him.  Also had to grin at them agreeing they are NOT friends when they are totally on the road to besties.  I also really enjoyed them arguing over how to fix that one piece of machinery before Sarah came along, told them they had no idea what they were doing and to let her handle it.  And they were both perfectly okay with that.

The apology was so wonderful and so heartfelt. Lovely scene and moment between the two of them. 

I liked seeing Julia Louis Dreyfus show up. I like her and her casual dismissal of Walker's wife was so arrogant and condescending and clearly encapsulated a lot of who that character is goind to be. (Not that I have any idea.)

5 minutes ago, moonorchid said:

when Sam tried to clean the blood off the shield...I don’t know if it’s meant to be interpreted like this but I def keep thinking of Steve Rogers when I see that shield and that scene just all of a sudden made me sad. Sad for the friend that Sam lost. Anthony Mackie is doing some of his best work here. 

I had the same reaction there. I hurt for Sam.

[catrice2]

4 minutes ago, silverstream said:

Not sure where in my post you got the impression that I think what Walker did was okay - it obviously isn't. All I said was that the fight at the beginning of the episode didn't have to happen, and that it was in fact Bucky and Sam who escalated *that particular situation* to the point where it became a fight (and that acting, direction and editing clearly support that).

If there's a person running around hurting people but now it looks like they're winding down, I'm not gonna do something that makes them mad and likely to hurt people again on purpose. The fact that I choose not to do that doesn't mean that person was right to hurt people in the first place.

Actually I don't think it was Bucky and Sam. Both were trying to calm him down and point out that it did not have to get worse.  He was not winding down, he was clearly still agitated....even the phrase of "go to work" as he was walking out and encountered them and his pacing, rushed words, etc. indicated he was still in a very aggressive state, along with justifying what he did.  He was on his way back out to finish the job, hence the "go to work" comment, so he was still mad and looking to hurt someone.   Yes, they were getting through to him, but when Sam mentioned the shield it was clear that he snapped back out of that contemplation.   Now it was BUCKY that made the gesture to actually take it when the fight ensued, so you may be right about that, but to me it appeared he was hoping to forcibly snatch it while Walker was off guard.  

Additionally at one point in the fight Sam takes his wings down and says to him, "John, this is not you," in an effort to calm him down again.

[Morrigan2575]

23 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Sam's "You touch my seester and I keeel you" is really retrograde and sexist and stupid, especially since she seems like the last person who needs "protecting."

 I doubt Sam would care about Sarah dating or men flirting with her. He cared about Bucky because they have an antagonistic relationship. That comment was more about Bucky/Sam than Bucky/Sarah.

Back to the episode

I really saw Kurt Russell in Wyatt tonight, that scene in the Senate hearing was like looking at Kurt Russell in Stargate.

I wish they gave some explanation for why Bucky isn't as baddass as he used to be. I mean they dude has taken on and beaten Falcon, Widow, Cap and Black Panther. Yet he couldn't take Walker out by himself?

I fanwank that it's because Bucky is holding back and, afraid of being The Winter Soldier again but, I wish they'd verbalize it.

Did Bucky call the Dora Milaje or Zemo? His comment about crossing his name off Bucky's list made me wonder if he turned himself in. 

[Ailianna]

12 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

 We're finally starting to see the real Bucky Barnes coming out, one that will carry a dark burden but who still can face the future with hope.

I think we are finally starting to see the Bucky Barnes Steve always saw.

11 hours ago, swanpride said:

Bucky has always been this way. His main character trait has always been "mother hen". He spend his whole life (the part, he had control over) taking care of the needs of others (mainly Steve's). The only time in which he focussed on his own needs was pretty much the year in Wakanda.

This quality of caring for someone else more than himself is part of what Steve always loved.  This series makes it really easy, even more than the movies, to understand why Bucky was so important to Steve. If Bucky has Steve on a pedestal, I think Steve also had Bucky on one.

6 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I also thought Bucky should have easily taken down Walker on his own, but then I read a comment that it was 2 guys trying to immobilize a supe, not kill him, and I'm sure that's more difficult. I think if Bucky had gone full kill mode, it would have been over much quicker.

This is my thought. It's a lot easier to subdue someone if you don't care if they get hurt. And Walker finally pushed them to where they didn't care if they hurt him, in a non fatal way.

[SeanC]

The strengths of this episode solidified one of my main critique of this series, specifically, that on the whole there is too little America in a series that is notionally all about what it means to be Captain America. Because the scenes like Sam's meeting with Isaiah are, to me, what the whole show should be about. But instead we spend huge amounts of time running around generic Eastern/Central European locations and Madripoor (not that there aren't things to explore about the meaning of being Captain America abroad, but the plot doesn't really do much of that).

The GRC also feels ill-suited to this story because it seems to be some sort of international governmental institution but this should be a story about how Sam relates to the US government/society, specifically.

[Minneapple]

The thing I liked about Sam listening to Isaiah but then deciding to take up the shield anyway is that Sam realized he has the agency to change things the way he wants to. I love a character who realizes his own power (not physical) and takes the initiative to change things. I loved when his nephew touched the star on the shield and smiled up at him (I love everything about Sam'a family, and my cold dead heart may have grown three sizes when Bucky woke up on the sofa and gave a little smile upon seeing the boys playing with the shield). 

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, Cerulean said:

I’m very confused by the physics of the shield.

"That thing does not obey the laws of physics at all."

[calliope1975]

2 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

"That thing does not obey the laws of physics at all."

In gif form

 

And just for fun, because I was appreciating the Wakanda arm upgrade during the boat scenes. (I was appreciating a lot of Sam and Bucky this episode.)

[Absurda]

Aw, man!  You guys beat me to the Spidey quote!

I do think Bucky has been holding back in his fights of late.  I can understand that in the last episode with the Dora Milaji and the super soldiers, because I don't think he really wanted to hurt any of them.  I think it's in keeping with his character that he doesn't want to hurt anyone unnecessarily, not even Walker.  Of course, it would have been a really short and boring fight if Walker were that easy to beat.

I don't mind Sam's "don't flirt with my sister" stuff because I have no trouble believing that they both would completely ignore Sam's posturing if it suited them.  Probably do it more just to irritate him.  He doesn't really have the authority to say who can/cannot flirt with his sister and they all know it, even Sam.  He's just stating his feelings on the matter.

 

[Starry-Eyed]

13 hours ago, tv echo said:

It still surprises me that Bucky isn't winning these fights easily, even against other super soldiers, given his decades of experience and training. It should not have taken both Sam and Bucky to defeat Walker.

Yeah, the fight scene at the beginning frustrated me. Walker vs. Sam, yes, that does make sense the way that part of the fight went down, but Bucky should be able to take down Walker single-handedly. They both have serum, so that's a wash. Walker has the shield, but Bucky has his vibranium arm. Bucky has DECADES of experience as a hyper-deadly assassin. Bucky AND Sam? that should be a piece of cake. But Bucky's been nerfed all series long, and I wish I knew why.

 

[moonorchid]

3 hours ago, silverstream said:

Meh, I wasn't in the slightest bit impressed with either Bucky or Sam in the opening scene.  Walker wasn't threatening anyone or even running away, there was absolutely no need to start a fight and escalate the situation when they knew Walker was already unstable from what he'd done, his friend's death and likely from recently taking the SSS. They could have just sat there and waited until the military (or whoever it was that eventually picked him up) got there. They could have even called the psychologist from the first couple of episodes to see if maybe she could help calm him down. There was no need to wrest the shield from him by force at that moment, it wasn't the trigger to a bomb he was threatening to detonate. Plus, the slow pan up as Walker lifts his head and we see his expression change when Sam says "you've got to give me the shield" pretty much emphasizes that that's when things started to go bad. Pretty sure that scene was in there just to have the obligatory fight scene per episode (and even then they could have given Bucky and Sam an actual reason to attack).

Walker was definitely thrown under the bus by the higher-ups - you can't tell me that the US military can't spin "Captain America kills known, proven terrorist" into a story that the majority of the public would be okay with. On the contrary, there's a good chance not a small number of people would probably find the *way* he did it cool as well. (Obligatory mention that what Walker did was obviously wrong and awful, I just have a hard time believing a lot of people - possibly the majority - would be terribly upset about it considering all the surrounding circumstances.)

On the plus side, I absolutely loved the boat scenes and almost everything that came after.

Sam and Bucky wanted the shield. They didn’t want it in the governments hands again. That’s what I took away as the meaning of the fight. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by moonorchid

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Cerulean said:

I’m very confused by the physics of the shield. It can wedge itself into a tree, but bounce off some padding. And I get that Bucky can catch it with his metal hand (not his dominant hand- a nice little moment) but how

You kind of just have to accept that vibranium is magic. It can absorb all impact and vibration yet the shield some how is almost constantly making noise.

I liked this episode a lot. Julia Louis Dreyfus showing up was cool. I know nothing about her character but I suspect it will lead to a lot of Elaine Benes in the MCU memes. If someone asks her about Walker and she says "Him? He's an idiot" I will be very happy.

And funny enough in an episode where she shows up, a large part of this one was a show about nothing. And like others I would have totally been into this season, even if it didn't have the Flag Smashers or the Power Broker or Walker.

The only thing that still bugs me is they keep saying Steve is gone. But where has he gone?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Starry-Eyed said:

Yeah, the fight scene at the beginning frustrated me. Walker vs. Sam, yes, that does make sense the way that part of the fight went down, but Bucky should be able to take down Walker single-handedly. They both have serum, so that's a wash. Walker has the shield, but Bucky has his vibranium arm. Bucky has DECADES of experience as a hyper-deadly assassin. Bucky AND Sam? that should be a piece of cake. But Bucky's been nerfed all series long, and I wish I knew why.

 

The Winter Soldier had decades of experience as a hyper-deadly assassin. Bucky was just along for the ride. The Winter Soldier was an effective killer because he was devoid of humanity. Bucky could be just as deadly but it’s not his first instinct. It’s takes more work to incapacitate someone than it does to kill someone. 

[Bruinsfan]

15 hours ago, paigow said:

Walker got his medals based on lies... his final lie to the Hoskins family was slightly less egregious but he clearly did not deserve to be worshipped by Lemar...

Yeah, if Walker had said that to anyone else I'd say it was purely a self-serving justification. But Lemar's family are the ONLY people that lie might actually do some good for. I'm not sure whether or not Walker has convinced himself he did no wrong, though. Even if it had been Karli he ran down instead of her henchman that still would have been murder, not justifiable homicide.

7 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I also thought Bucky should have easily taken down Walker on his own, but then I read a comment that it was 2 guys trying to immobilize a supe, not kill him, and I'm sure that's more difficult. I think if Bucky had gone full kill mode, it would have been over much quicker.

I think the shield really does complicate matters, though. Any time Walker got it between himself and a blow or impact, they might as well have been throwing cotton balls at him, whereas Sam had to avoid his blows or be pulped, and even Bucky was going to be hurting from the hits he landed.

[Ingrin]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

Yeah, if Walker had said that to anyone else I'd say it was purely a self-serving justification. But Lemar's family are the ONLY people that lie might actually do some good for. I'm not sure whether or not Walker has convinced himself he did no wrong, though. Even if it had been Karli he ran down instead of her henchman that still would have been murder, not justifiable homicide.

Right, I think he was lying to the parents to re-assure them, and in his own twisted way he is going to try to make it right next episode by trying to do what he said he did already, kill Lemar's killer. I think in his mind he is now honor bound to avenge Lemar's death, hence the preparation in the end credit scene.

[VCRTracking]

Reimagining this scene with Sam Jackson and Julia Louis Dreyfus:

 

[Afwife1992]

There's a tight focus here and it's something that wasn't delved into in Captain America: First Avenger which was much less gritty, but the mantle of Captain America is that it should be held by the non-John Walkers. It was made clear with Isaiah Bradley's story and it wasn't fleshed out in CA:FA but Steve Rogers was just the type of who they wouldn't have chosen. It's light hearted with Col Phillips saying he's too skinny and all but, in reality, canonical Steve Rogers was a disabled, dirt poor son of Irish Catholic immigrants who lived in the Great Depression at the height of the eugenics movement. You can pull up the list of Steve's ailments and it's a mile long. Hitler would've had him gassed without blinking. In the US, his mother probably was encouraged to just let him die. So Sam taking on the shield and assuming the mantle is right in keeping. CA should be the defender of the defenseless and all that good stuff. The mantle *should* be held by those who know suffering or discrimination. As Erskine said, a weak man knows the value of strength and knows compassion. John Walker, while not some evil, mustache twirling villain, was just the type that the Army *wanted* to pick back in the day. A perfect soldier, not necessarily a 'good man'. As Bucky pointed out to Sam, he has his own path and it's not Steve's and it's not Isaiah's but there *is* a common denominator. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Starry-Eyed said:

Yeah, the fight scene at the beginning frustrated me. Walker vs. Sam, yes, that does make sense the way that part of the fight went down, but Bucky should be able to take down Walker single-handedly. They both have serum, so that's a wash. Walker has the shield, but Bucky has his vibranium arm. Bucky has DECADES of experience as a hyper-deadly assassin. Bucky AND Sam? that should be a piece of cake. But Bucky's been nerfed all series long, and I wish I knew why.

 

Well, deep down, we all know why from a plot standpoint: If Bucky remained half as skilled/deadly as he did during TWS, there wouldn't be much of a conflict. The WS who fought Cap/Falcon/BW to a standstill and even the WS in Civil War who could clown elite soldiers and who with Cap could take down Iron Man would have made short-work of the untrained and no-gizmo having Flag Smashers and the trained-but-little-experienced Cosplay Cap. Heck, even IW/Endgame Bucky would have just shot himself some fools. 

The best in-universe explanation seems to be that he is consciously trying to not be the hyper-deadly assassin and is using force as a last resort, or perhaps that as part of his deprogramming, he has lost a step.

[RedElf]

In the first episode, Walker told Sam that his Falcon equipment belonged to the US Government.  Now that he's destroyed it, doesn't that mean he's destroyed government property?

I think the shield doesn't want to belong to anybody.

I'm not sure a beard is compatible with being in uniform.

I wonder why those Senators aren't asking for the shield back.

Julia Louis-Dreyfuss as the Contessa was perfect. Besides, she knows what it's like to be a rich jet setter, irl. But isn't the Contessa an Agent of SHIELD?

That little half smile Bucky did when he pulled the trigger.

I loved the Bucky and Sam teamwork on the boat.  And Sarah and Bucky flirting.

The photo that Lemar's mother gave to Walker kind of bothers me, because it looked like Lemar worshipping Walker. And her comments about Lemar were even more hero worship.

Is Sharon part of LAF? Is she setting Sam up to be killed by Batroc? Her motives are confusing.

 

 

 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

40 minutes ago, Ingrin said:

Right, I think he was lying to the parents to re-assure them, and in his own twisted way he is going to try to make it right next episode by trying to do what he said he did already, kill Lemar's killer. I think in his mind he is now honor bound to avenge Lemar's death, hence the preparation in the end credit scene.

It's equally possible that Walker is straight up crazy/in denial. He told Sam and Bucky that Nico killed Lemar when he knew (or should have known) that they knew he did not. It's possible that he was trying to get them to buy into the lie or at least to see if they might. It's also possible in his mental state he had confused what the case was. He has little reason to try to deceive Bucky or Sam about Lemar's killing. 

It is also worth noting that presumably some cell phone video exists showing that Nico was protesting his innocence when Walker killed him. Whether the Hoskins family would be aware directly or indirectly of the contents of that video or what was said about it, who knows? 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, RedElf said:

I wonder why those Senators aren't asking for the shield back.

They did. It’s the last thing they said as Walker was leaving. Just before the Contessa confirmed that the shield isn’t really government property. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, RedElf said:

In the first episode, Walker told Sam that his Falcon equipment belonged to the US Government.  Now that he's destroyed it, doesn't that mean he's destroyed government property?

I think the shield doesn't want to belong to anybody.

I'm not sure a beard is compatible with being in uniform.

I wonder why those Senators aren't asking for the shield back.

Julia Louis-Dreyfuss as the Contessa was perfect. Besides, she knows what it's like to be a rich jet setter, irl. But isn't the Contessa an Agent of SHIELD?

That little half smile Bucky did when he pulled the trigger.

I loved the Bucky and Sam teamwork on the boat.  And Sarah and Bucky flirting.

The photo that Lemar's mother gave to Walker kind of bothers me, because it looked like Lemar worshipping Walker. And her comments about Lemar were even more hero worship.

Is Sharon part of LAF? Is she setting Sam up to be killed by Batroc? Her motives are confusing.

 

I think his destroying government property is not a crime Walker cares about.

The senator did ask for Walker to return the shield "expeditiously." It is possible that was just for show and like Val, they know he doesn't have it. Or Val could have better sources than the council does.  

As I understand it, in the comics, Val was originally a girlfriend of Nick Fury and a SHIELD agent in her own right. But later versions had her being or breaking bad. Where she falls in the MCU is unclear. I saw her as a little too chatty and friendly. I would think that there would be a little more aristocratic disdain about someone who would actually bring up her title. 

I would say that Lemar did worship Walker largely as a hero. So the picture and the way his family talks about their relationship seems to fit.

My guess is that Sharon has hired Batroc to infiltrate the Flag Smashers and he will do a heel-face turn to stab them in the back during the final episode. 

[RedElf]

14 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Sam's "You touch my seester and I keeel you" is really retrograde and sexist and stupid, especially since she seems like the last person who needs "protecting."

It was a joke.

I wonder what Walker is making that shield out of.  It obviously can't be vibranium.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

think his destroying government property is not a crime Walker cares about.

He obviously didn't care about taking a mysterious vial of drugs during a mission (which I think is probably against military regulation. Seriously Karli should have just filled some of those vials with heroin or something) so he probably doesn't care that much about the falcon suit.

7 minutes ago, RedElf said:

I wonder what Walker is making that shield out of.  It obviously can't be vibranium.

 

I imagine just steel, although that makes me wonder how bullet proof it would be. Although considering that Walker is already off brand cosplay Cap, it wouldn't surprise me if it was made from a piece of aluminum from the side of a shed or something.

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, silverstream said:

Meh, I wasn't in the slightest bit impressed with either Bucky or Sam in the opening scene.  Walker wasn't threatening anyone or even running away, there was absolutely no need to start a fight and escalate the situation when they knew Walker was already unstable from what he'd done, his friend's death and likely from recently taking the SSS. They could have just sat there and waited until the military (or whoever it was that eventually picked him up) got there. They could have even called the psychologist from the first couple of episodes to see if maybe she could help calm him down. There was no need to wrest the shield from him by force at that moment, it wasn't the trigger to a bomb he was threatening to detonate. Plus, the slow pan up as Walker lifts his head and we see his expression change when Sam says "you've got to give me the shield" pretty much emphasizes that that's when things started to go bad. Pretty sure that scene was in there just to have the obligatory fight scene per episode (and even then they could have given Bucky and Sam an actual reason to attack).

Walker was definitely thrown under the bus by the higher-ups - you can't tell me that the US military can't spin "Captain America kills known, proven terrorist" into a story that the majority of the public would be okay with. On the contrary, there's a good chance not a small number of people would probably find the *way* he did it cool as well. (Obligatory mention that what Walker did was obviously wrong and awful, I just have a hard time believing a lot of people - possibly the majority - would be terribly upset about it considering all the surrounding circumstances.)

On the plus side, I absolutely loved the boat scenes and almost everything that came after.

Best case scenario if they didn't ask him for the shield: Walker surrenders to his puppetmasters, gives them the shield and they announce Cosplay Cap 2: Super-Soldier Bugaloo. Which puts things potentially right back where they started from: some strangers deciding who is worthy of carrying the mantle of Cap when real Cap has already designated Sam as worthy and when Sam IS worthy in his own right.

Among the various other bad scenarios: Walker goes on a rampage juiced on SSS with the shield and uses it to murder more people. Or the government rationalizes Walker's killing of Nico and embraces him despite him having soiled Cap's legacy. 

It makes sense to me that they took the stand where/when they did. 

9 hours ago, RedElf said:

It was a joke.

Probably more a kidding...not kidding scenario.

Pretty sure a lot of guys would not want their sister dating Broody McBrooderson Staring Machine. 

13 hours ago, SeanC said:

The strengths of this episode solidified one of my main critique of this series, specifically, that on the whole there is too little America in a series that is notionally all about what it means to be Captain America. Because the scenes like Sam's meeting with Isaiah are, to me, what the whole show should be about. But instead we spend huge amounts of time running around generic Eastern/Central European locations and Madripoor (not that there aren't things to explore about the meaning of being Captain America abroad, but the plot doesn't really do much of that).

The GRC also feels ill-suited to this story because it seems to be some sort of international governmental institution but this should be a story about how Sam relates to the US government/society, specifically.

I think the show is about what it means to be Captain America from a number of perspectives:

What is it like to attempt to follow in the footsteps of Steve Rogers, a living legend?

What would it be like to be Cap without actual powers?

What would it be like to be Cap as a personal friend of Steve?

What would it be like to be Cap in our celebrity culture?

What would it be like to be Cap as a Black man?

And part of that also is, what would it be like to be Captain America in the 2020s in an increasingly global landscape, and particularly against the backdrop where there had been for the past five years some greater sense of an international community than there is in our real world?

I too would have preferred a series that consisted almost entirely of exchanges like Sam/Isaiah's and minimized the fist fighting, one that better fleshed out the GRC, the status of the Sokovia Accords and on and on, but that's probably asking too much of a Marvel series. 

[Afwife1992]

56 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well, deep down, we all know why from a plot standpoint: If Bucky remained half as skilled/deadly as he did during TWS, there wouldn't be much of a conflict. The WS who fought Cap/Falcon/BW to a standstill and even the WS in Civil War who could clown elite soldiers and who with Cap could take down Iron Man would have made short-work of the untrained and no-gizmo having Flag Smashers and the trained-but-little-experienced Cosplay Cap. Heck, even IW/Endgame Bucky would have just shot himself some fools. 

The best in-universe explanation seems to be that he is consciously trying to not be the hyper-deadly assassin and is using force as a last resort, or perhaps that as part of his deprogramming, he has lost a step.

I think he wildly dialed it down. The first episode emphasized him not wanting to use force (being forbidden to actually) and we've seen it on his face in Madripoor too. He could've broken Walker's face like he did Steve's if he'd really unloaded with that vibranium arm. His Wakanda arm is even stronger than his CA:WS arm and he beat Steve to a pulp back then. Granted, Steve wasn't hitting back as hard as he could but Walker doesn't have nearly Steve's fighting skills either. I saw the arm break coming though--there were a lot of callback scenes to CA:WS and CW in that fight. The shield tossing, the two-on-one and Steve had broken Bucky's arm rather than kill him on the helicarrier. If Bucky had wanted he could've grabbed Walker by the neck and choked him and there wouldn't be much he could do. Even in CW with the German soldiers, Bucky told Steve he didn't want to kill anyone (though he did throw one who Steve had to catch and say 'come on man') but he wasn't going to get captured and executed either. He also fought T'challa more defensively than offensively at the airport. Bucky/WS on the helicarrier was the last time we saw balls to the wall fighting Winter Soldier. He took his goat tending break for x number of months in Wakanda (he came out of cryo sometime between Civil War and a good while before Black Panther) and stepped away from fighting until T'challa showed up with the arm. Then he said wearily 'where's the fight?'. It was obvious he hadn't done anything close since coming out of cryo until they battled Thanos, then he was snapped, then he came back for the Endgame battle (which was mostly firing his gun) and now here we are. 

[dwmarch]

It's too bad these new shows have an aversion to referencing previous properties because (mild, obvious spoilers for the Netflix Luke Cage series)

Spoiler

Isaiah's experience is very similar to what I recall Luke Cage going through. A little different in that Cage got his powers in jail but there is enough overlap that I think those two could have a great conversation.

I got such a kick out of Bucky's line about why he doesn't think to use the metal arm first.

Interesting to see that in order to be Captain America one does not necessarily have to have super-soldier serum. You just need to work out a lot. Not sure how that would work against powered opponents though. Humans are squishy.

[MrWhyt]

12 hours ago, LJones41 said:

And why isn't Bucky in prison for helping Zemo escape?

someone would have to be able to prove in a court of law that he did.

[Brn2bwild]

Julia Louis-Dreyfus's character popping in during that intense conversation between the Walkers was like if Agatha had dropped in on Wanda while she was screaming and forming her fictional universe.  Fun, but out of place, and with a bit of "What just happened?".

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Brn2bwild

[Bruinsfan]

1 hour ago, dwmarch said:

Not sure how that would work against powered opponents though. Humans are squishy.

The shield itself will help a lot on that front, though Sam isn't going to be able to use it nearly as effectively on offense against tough opponents as Steve was. Redwing and those mini-missiles he uses as Falcon might help make up the gap.

[Check Sanity]

9 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Again, I don't like John, but he's right. The government gave him the shield, clearly without doing any vetting to see if he was capable of being more than a propaganda device, and before that they gave him medals for doing God knows what. They only stripped him of the mantle because of the embarrassment factor, and now he's walking around lying to people about what really happened. I thought Lamar's sister looked a bit suspicious of him when he was talking to the parent,s but I could be misreading it.

The sister absolutely didn't believe Walker at all. And as someone else pointed out, there is probably video floating around of the Flag Smasher saying it wasn't him, and if anyone from Lemar's family may be aware of that it's his younger sister. There was a bit of "why did he die and you survive" in her look as he was saying he'd always be there for them too.

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I still have no idea what is going on with Sharon. I think she is playing some kind of long game. 

Zemo escaped, but only to see the memorial at his destroyed homeland. His last scene with Bucky was great, and a very classy way for him to exit the show (for now?), still not a good guy but a person with a sense of nobility in his way. So glad that Bucky turned him into the Dora Milaje who are taking him to The Raft, which will hopefully be harder for him to escape from. It also seems like he is on better terms with them again, the exchange where Ayo said that he should avoid Wakanda for a bit but then also called him White Wolf and still did him a favor seemed to say that they were still upset, but they would get over it, they wont be mad at him forever. 

People have said that Sharon is playing the Fury playbook of getting other people to do certain dirty work, which definitely is long game style. I've seen some theories referring to Sharon being part of 

Spoiler

one of the all female elite spy/fight teams from the comics. I've seen Daughter's of Liberty or Femme Force suggested, though with this episode's Countess cameo, some form of the latter may be more likely. Either way, I'm interested in seeing a team up of that sort. Endgame fumbled the ball hard in that department, I'd like to see Marvel do it right.

Also, "still not a good guy but a person with a sense of nobility in his way". I should hope so... he is a Baron afterall. ;) (Sorry, couldn't help myself). 

5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I would add that while John Walker is allowed to lose his shit as much as he likes, Captain America isn't. As light as the shield may be, the responsibilities that come with it are heavy. Steve knew that, and Sam knows it. John being ill-prepared and a bad fit for the mantle isn't really anyone's fault, and he should never have been offered the role to begin with, but the fact that he's probably never really had to work for anything means he's also ill-prepared for failure, and he lacks the humility to know when he should stand down, as was proven in this episode. If he's nothing without the shield, he shouldn't have it.

Walker has worked hard. What Walker hasn't done is fail, let alone fail repeatedly (unlike Same who even says this episode that he know's he won't always win and accepts that). 
Walker has no understanding of mercy. He unfortunately only knows entitlement and the lies of "the great white hope", which are just as dangerous for people of colour as it is for white people, shown on full display in the character John Walker.

5 hours ago, mac123x said:

My immediate reaction was "Teddy Kennedy wearing a neck brace".  I thought the arm in a sling was for show to the press/congress, but he was still wearing it at Lemar's family's house.  

That was so random.  I thought it was a hook for season 2.  Hopefully she's NOT the Power Broker, because (as I mentioned last week) introducing your main villain with 20 pages left to go in the novel is bad writing.

The sling does the same at Lemar's family's house as it did with the senators, makes people sympathetic. Also, I'm not sure why everyone is under the impression that Walker would heal that quick. He doesn't have the same serum as Steve or Bucky. He also doesn't have the "I can do this all day" thing, plus he's full of self-pity.  

The Power Broker's presence has been there all season, they weren't just introduced this episode. Even with a reveal of who it is, it still wouldn't be introducing the villain in the last 20 pages, they've been influencing things since episode 1. Still, I also don't think they're the main villain. Karli and the Flag Smashers have become that.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

The strengths of this episode solidified one of my main critique of this series, specifically, that on the whole there is too little America in a series that is notionally all about what it means to be Captain America. Because the scenes like Sam's meeting with Isaiah are, to me, what the whole show should be about. But instead we spend huge amounts of time running around generic Eastern/Central European locations and Madripoor (not that there aren't things to explore about the meaning of being Captain America abroad, but the plot doesn't really do much of that).

The GRC also feels ill-suited to this story because it seems to be some sort of international governmental institution but this should be a story about how Sam relates to the US government/society, specifically.

My issue with this view I have is that it doesn't take into count the US' position as a world leader. That country IRL and in the MCU has a lot of power on the global stage. Captain America was born out of World War II. The role of Captain America is as a leader, it's one of diplomacy, and propaganda. Captain America in the US government's mind, is an example of what America wants to present to the world as their ideal, a showcase of the country's values. 

The whole thing with the GRC is that they are trying to put back boarders and separate things to how they were pre Blip. Who do you think spearheaded that and gets the most out of that coming to fruition? The US government. Why? Because they had the most power.  Sam points out in the second episode "the people with the resources" are the ones who don't want revolutionaries, he points this out when Walker and Lemar state that their job is to keep things stable for the GRC. The only other country that has a patriotic superhero/symbol is Wakanda. 

5 hours ago, moonorchid said:

In some ways, sam has the same naïveté as Steve, I like how he’s not cynical, but he always thinks there’s justice to be had, and for Isaiah Bradley, that ship has sailed. He’s valid in how he feels about the shield. Sam isn’t jilted enough to see a possible bigger picture. He knows what it’ll mean for the next generation to see him hold that shield. I’m glad Sam came to the decision in his own time. 

I will admit to falling more on the Sam and Steve side of the scale of hope. It's definitely something that is perhaps afforded more to people who have more time (aka relatively younger), and those who haven't been beaten down personally so many times. Isaiah had his time and has very legit reasons for his cynicism. Bucky is technically older, but he has more time left than Isaiah to live and make changes in his life. He also is possibly infected with some of the same hope due to his proximity to others who think that way (Steve and Sam). 

4 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

Interesting to see that in order to be Captain America one does not necessarily have to have super-soldier serum. You just need to work out a lot. Not sure how that would work against powered opponents though. Humans are squishy.

I think a big part of this show and the role of Captain America is in being a good leader, not so much being super powered. Though now with a suit from Wakanda, plus Sam's Falcon flying skills he's got more going for him "power" wise then. Iron man, War Machine, Ant man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, etc are all humans that are not super powered yet have faced the big 3.  
Besides, Sam has Bucky and/or Torres to be by his side.