S01.E04: The Whole World Is Watching

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

John Walker loses patience with Sam and Bucky as they learn more about Karli Morgenthau.

Dropping Friday, April 9, 2021.

[paigow]

I knew that Shuri built a failsafe somewhere...

That did not seem like 8 hours... Never get tired of Walker getting pwned

[vb68]

Well damn, John Walker. I can't imagine he gets to keep the Shield too much longer after that. But who's going to tell him and more specifically, try to take it from him?

The fight with the Dora Milaje was absolutely everything. Bucky got a major surprise, but in retrospect he probably should have seen something like that coming. They did design the arm. Honestly Bucky and Sam should had stayed out of that one and kept their eyes on Zemo.   

Speaking of Zemo, where did he slip away to? That totally gave me a flashback to the old Batman tv show where the major villain slips away while the minions fight Batman and Robin. Too funny. Hope that's not the last we see of him in the show.

Sharon remains a grey character to me. I can't tell what she's really up to or her agenda. My sense is that she's not the Power Broker, but definitely knows PB's identity. I could be wrong, though.   

Karli's phone call to Sarah was very telling. I'd like to think she wouldn't hurt Sam's family, but if she thought it was her last option? Yeah, she probably would.   

If Steve is still around (and not on the moon hehehe), I hope he didn't have to see the video of Walker with the Shield.  

Edited April 9, 2021 by vb68

[TiffanyNichelle]

I love this episode so much that I don't know where to start! That opening scene with Bucky and Ayo and seeing how she was there when he learned the brainwashing was gone for good? And so they had that bond (and Bucky speaks Wakandan) was so good. I especially loved when she (and the Dora) so casually kicked Walker's ass and she unlocked Bucky's arm. So good!

This was also a great Sam episode. That conversation with Karli was practically screaming "This is why he should be Captain America!"  Or maybe that was just me yelling it in my bedroom, lol. Damn Walker for once again making situations worse. 

Poor Lemar. I thought he was going to be killed while tied up, I thought all that water dripping was really gas and they were going to blow the place up. So imagine my surprise when he rescued himself and died a different way. He didn't deserve that. 

The symbolism of the Flag Smasher who talked about being a Cap fan being murdered by the new Cap did not go unnoticed. Walker wasn't handling things well before he took the serum. Of course he'd go off the rails after.

I would like a flashback to the world during the Blip. Hearing them describe how all the borders dropped and people were free to move around wherever actually helped me understand the Flag Smashers a little. I don't think that would have actually happened in the real world. I could see how a Blip would make countries grow further apart rather than closer. 

I think I'm ok with Zemo getting away while everyone was fighting. They were pushing how long they could keep him with Sam and Bucky. Too many episodes would turn this into The Falcon, Winter Soldier and Zemo Show. 

[Schweedie]

Definitely the best episode so far for me. So many thoughts. The opening scene absolutely broke my heart.

The Dora fight was amazing ("Looking strong, John!"), although being beaten by women who "weren't even super soldiers" was definitely the breaking point that made Walker take the serum. I'm really looking forward to seeing the fallout from that! And I liked the contrast between Lemar (RIP, buddy, I liked you better than your partner) and Sam's answers to whether they would take the serum if they could. When Walker and Lemar talked about that I got the sense that Walker knew deep down that taking the serum wasn't a good idea for him but really, really wanted to anyway, and needed to hear from Lemar that it would be fine. I think he really does *want* to be the kind of person who can handle the serum and do actual good with what it gives him, but he's just not. 

Sam, on the other hand? Would be that kind of person. I really appreciated the callback to how he used to counsel traumatised soldiers - I remember thinking after the second episode that I expected Sam to have been softer with Bucky, given how familiar he is with soldiers like him, but they've done a good job of bringing that part of him back after that. Sure, he got "back in" the game when Steve needed his help and then stayed, but Sam Wilson is much more than just the Falcon. His talk with Karli was a good reminder of that.

I wonder how long Zemo can hide from the Dora Milaje.

[vb68]

4 minutes ago, Schweedie said:

The Dora fight was amazing ("Looking strong, John!"), although being beaten by women who "weren't even super soldiers" was definitely the breaking point that made Walker take the serum. 

Agreed, but I was a little shocked he didn't take it before that fight. He was itching to use it, and I have no idea how he thought he could handle trained Wakandan soldiers-he had to know who they were- without taking it. 

[arc]

The gov't probably should have given Battlestar a helmet. That said, I don't think he died of a head wound anyways, but still.

Hey, in the first movie Cap needed that whole contraption; it wasn't just a serum.  According to one wiki, he was bombarded with "vita-rays" to activate the serum. Presumably Walker just drank the dose he snuck. I guess it's possible Nagel's enhancements obviated the need for vita-rays.

If the Dora Milaje could send three women to capture Zemo, and they ended up fighting Walker and Hoskins -- two non-super soldiers, only one armed with a large vibranium frisbee -- then letting Zemo escape is a lot on them. They could have put one Dora each on Walker and Hoskins and kept one to restrain Zemo.

Zemo displayed an admirable consistency of his convictions when he didn't even try to take a dose of serum for himself.

The Power Broker might have lost Nagel, but there are other scientists. From the PB's point of view, losing the remaining serum doses only means the (augmented) Flag Smashers should be kept alive, so their blood could be studied and the serum re-created from that, just as Nagel did with Isaiah's blood. Failing that, Bucky's blood.

This show's Flag Smashers point out the contradiction about capitalism I've been reading about off and on lately: money can flow across borders with less and less friction these days, but people need visas. Especially people from the Global South.

[Schweedie]

48 minutes ago, vb68 said:

Agreed, but I was a little shocked he didn't take it before that fight. He was itching to use it, and I have no idea how he thought he could handle trained Wakandan soldiers-he had to know who they were- without taking it. 

I think Walker really wanted to believe and maybe try to prove to himself that he didn't actually need the serum, that he deserves being Captain America based on who he already is. He strikes me as someone who hasn't paid enough attention to news about Wakanda to realise what he was dealing with there. The humiliation when he realised he wasn't enough on his own just pushed him over the edge.

[Lebanna]

Totally agree that this was the first episode that really pointed out why the idea behind the Flag Smashers isn’t intrinsically bad, like most big ideas, it’s all about how it’s done. People don’t sign up to horrible ideas, they sign up to good ones about peace and love and sharing and rights and freedom, that then are pretty much always warped into authoritarian nightmares. Zemo makes some great points as well. Supersoldiers, as we see with everyone except Steve, don’t naturally tend towards sweetness and light. I adore how they are pointing these things out.

There’s this poem by anti-fascist writer Michael Rosen that goes:

Fascism arrives as your friend. 

It will restore your honour, 

make you feel proud, 

protect your house, 

give you a job, 

clean up the neighbourhood, 

remind you of how great you once were, 

clear out the venal and the corrupt, 

remove anything you feel is unlike you...

This show is doing such a great job at showing how easily we fall into darkness when we think we are reaching for the light.

Poor Lemar. That crashing, snapping sound as he hit the pillar was horrible. He was so much more reasonable than Walker, it’s not surprising that Walker broke as soon as he was gone. Lemar was probably a big piece of what was holding Walker back from total meltdown.

Loved watching John Walker get beaten up by women. But I also loved that, although that was clearly in his mind, he didn’t say anything about them being women. He doesn’t want to be the guy who rages about things like that. He knows that would be pathetic. He doesn’t want people to see him that way. He loves that people see him as noble and good, but he exploded his own pride and reputation in public when he murdered the guy who used to be Captain America’s biggest fan. What a walking Greek tragedy he is.

Speaking of walking tragedies, I am loving how much Bucky in this series is reminding me of Wolverine just now, and not just because he’s the White Wolf. Maybe it’s the black leather, the perma-frown, the metal and the fact that from some angles Stan looks quite Jackman-esque, but when he was handling the blades in this fight, or when he was suffering by the campfire, I really saw it. I mean, the characters’ backstories carry so many similarities as well. Both old soldiers named James who lived over a hundred years, both cut up, tortured and experimented on by evil scientists, both full of regrets for bad deeds they were forced into, both have a love-hate relationship with their beast-mode, both are total sweeties deep down, both are snarky. Both have a close yet complicated relationship with a teammate who wears red goggles...

Since we’re definitely not getting Wolvie back for many, many years, I’m glad we get to keep some of those elements in the Marvel-verse. As long as they never (ever, please *rolleyes*) have Bucky and Sam fight over a woman, the Winter Soldier might even be an improvement on the archetype. 

Also, how great to see Bucky being freed from his years of slavery in an eternally free African nation. That was a really beautiful touch.

Sam is just such a good guy. He’s so like Steve in that he can see inside people and understand their motivations, and he cares to do it, even when it is hard. For him, violence should always be the last resort, not the first step. He sees other places and people as just as important as his own. But Steve, because he was warrior trapped in a physically weak, somewhat disabled body, did want to change himself. Sam doesn’t want to change anything about himself. That’s a fundamental problem here, because to be Captain America, he would have to change. In the context of the earlier Gandalf conversation, in this episode he’s also Tolkien’s Sam, he’s the guy who never wants the power, who would never go there even at the end of everything, because he doesn’t need it to know who he is. Which is why he has to be given all the power he can handle.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Lebanna

[Jeebus Cripes]

This episode was chef's kiss. The Dora Milaje making a total ass out of Walker while Bucky threw shade gave me so much life that I had to rewind it like 4 times.

The moment they captured Lemar I knew he would be killed and that would turn Walker into full villain, and boy was that final shot of Cap's shield dripping blood a horrid sight to behold. 

Also found myself rooting for Zemo to end Karli. I felt like an asshole at the time, but then she turned around and pulled that stunt with Sam's sister reaffirming how loathsome she is. You don't needlessly kill and fuck with innocent people in the pursuit of a better world. To quote Sam, "I don't think he's the kind you save. He's the kind you stop." No more talking that kid down. She's gotta be stopped.

[Spartan Girl]

RIP Lemar/Battlestar. I’m going to be generous and say for whatever else we hate about John Walker, he did care about Lemar and his rage was understandable, even if “Captain America” beating a guy to death with the shield was horrifying. We also learned that he probably has PTSD, and that’s definitely not a good mix with the power serum. 

That being said, I did laugh my ass off when the Dora Milaje kicked his ass.

Zemo screwed them over and escaped. I’m so surprised—NOT.

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

You don't needlessly kill and fuck with innocent people in the pursuit of a better world. To quote Sam, "I don't think he's the kind you save. He's the kind you stop." No more talking that kid down. She's gotta be stopped.

This. Karli is becoming a monster and doesn’t want to admit it. Her conversation with Sam (the other best part of the episode) showed that well.

Sharon is not the Power Broker, I know it. The messages to Karli did not sound like her.

Edited to add: they’re gonna make us wait til the finale for a post credits scene, aren’t they?

Edited April 9, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Ailianna]

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

To quote Sam, "I don't think he's the kind you save. He's the kind you stop." No more talking that kid down. She's gotta be stopped.

Of course, he said that to Steve about Bucky. And that turned out to be wrong. Will Karli surprise us too?

 

2 hours ago, arc said:

Hey, in the first movie Cap needed that whole contraption; it wasn't just a serum.  According to one wiki, he was bombarded with "vita-rays" to activate the serum. Presumably Walker just drank the dose he snuck. I guess it's possible Nagel's enhancements obviated the need for vita-rays.

 

Zemo displayed an admirable consistency of his convictions when he didn't even try to take a dose of serum for himself.

I think now they inject it, but the vita-rays might be in the serum now. But on the other hand, maybe missing vita- rays is the difference between Erskin's serum and those that tried to recreate it. Plus Steve, naturally.

I can like Zemo on tv or a movie because he does have principles; even if I don't agree with him, he's entirely dedicated to what he believes is right. I was only surprised he even checked it was serum before smashing the vials. I also really appreciated not only his speech about how tyrants/fascists start, but his conviction that the Avengers were in that group.

I also laughed at how quick (and given his personal history how fitting) Bucky's clarification was that they were not friends with the Nazis.

We saw power corrupting in this episode a lot, especially with Walker. I wonder if motivation when taking the serum has an impact on how it affects someone. The petty motivations, along with the anger, self-humiliation, and desire to conquer will shape Walker's new persona.

Steve, who I believe is neither on the moon nor in his grave, would be horrified by all of this, irrespective of the stain on his own legacy. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Ailianna

[festivus]

Oh Lamar. I knew it was coming but that was brutal. That end shot with the blood on the shield made me gasp.

What did Ayo say to Bucky after she dropped his arm? Couldn't hear it.

[tv echo]

Live thoughts while watching...

Yay - we get a flashback to Bucky's deprogramming in Wakanda!  But is he really deprogrammed? That hidden smile on Bucky's face at the end was kinda creepy and scary. Oh no, has Bucky been pretending all this time? Or was that smile just a smile of relief? Or was that smile just teasing that the Winter Soldier will always be a part of Bucky? Is he completely deprogrammed?

Seeing Ayo again is great. But anything Wakanda-related just makes me sad, thinking of Chadwick Boseman.

Zemo's comparing super soldiers to supremacist ideals is interesting.

Bucky: "Maybe you're wrong, Zemo. The serum never corrupted Steve."
Zemo: "Touché. But there has never been another Steve Rogers, has there?"

Foreshadowing John Walker's character journey toward corruption?

Sam: "Take it easy. Don't engage him. He's just going to extort you and do that stupid head tilt thing."
Zemo straightens his head. (LOL)

Hmm. Sharon knows an awful lot about the Power Broker and referred to him as male.

Ugh - John Walker is back. I hate seeing the Captain America shield on his back.

Good scene between Sam and Karli. However, I still don't like Karli. She comes across as ego-centric and with a messianic complex.

Of course, Walker screwed everything up. Of course, Walker hid the last vial of super serum. You could tell that he envied or resented Bucky's being super-powered. 

Getting beaten by the Dora Milaje is going to make Walker take the super serum.

You could tell that Bucky was trying not to kill any of the Dora Milaje during that fight. But he and Sam could not let them kill Walker and Lemar.

Threatening children is the coward's way, Karli.

Of course, Walker took the super serum.

I think Lemar is doomed. Yep, he's doomed.

Now we have live video of the new Captain America beating an unarmed man to death with his shield. 

And Zemo's on the loose again. Sigh.

Edited April 9, 2021 by tv echo

[GHScorpiosRule]

39 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

We saw power corrupting in this episode a lot, especially with Walker. I wonder if motivation when taking the serum has an impact on how it affects someone. The petty motivations, along with the anger, self-humiliation, and desire to conquer will shape Walker's new persona.

I haven't seen this yet, but I do remember Erskine telling Steve that the serum brings "out" the power of what the person is inside--it corrupted Red Skull, but since Steve is a good man, an honorable man--power good. Or something like that. So since Walker has been a douche all along, no surprise at reading what the serum "did" to him. 

[swanpride]

Well, right on schedule...It was time for Walker to give Sam a good reason to reclaim the shield. High time. Honestly, I expected this happening LAST episode, so that we would have three for the actual important fight.

I really, really dislike Walker, more than Zemo and Carly...and here is why: I completely disagree with the methods of Zemo and Carly, but I actually think that their goals are the right ones. Zemo is right that there shouldn't be more supersoldiers. Carly is right about the plight of the people. I can't condone what they do, but I understand where they are coming from.

But Walker, yeah, he is just wrong at every turn. He is wrong about why Steve was the kind of hero he was (which was not because of a Serum or a Shield), he is wrong about interrupting Sam's attempt to talk Carly down, and I can't express enough how much it grated to have have him talk about jurisdiction. Hey, a-hole, last time I checked Europe was not part of the United States of America. He is really everything people feared a Captain America created by Hollywood would look like pre 2011.

And even if it is never explicitly said, it is pretty clear that his ego couldn't deal with getting a beat down from a group of women.

 

Sebastian Stan is still killing his role (poor Bucky), but overall this was pretty much a Sam episode. I loved how he didn't hesitate a second to reject the Serum.

[Chicago Redshirt]

A pretty big step up from last episode.

Yes, there was some issues with suspension of disbelief. I don't see Our Heroes AND Cosplay Cap/Lemar AND the Wakandans all losing Zemo in any universe. How no one stuck him with a high-tech tracker or better restraints than handcuffs, I don't know. The notion that the funeral for Mama Donya was a super-secret thing that only Zemo could figure out is a tough sell. The notion that Karli, who rationalized blowing up a building with people inside and threatened Sam's nephews. paused for a second after killing Lemar in the heat of battle, let alone seemingly felt remorse, not buying it. 

I think for all the great action of the series, what makes episodes like a cut above is the philosophy and the quiet moments. I loved Ayo and Bucky talking, Zemo and Sam talking, Sam and Karli talking. Pretty much all those conversations I would have been happy if they were increased. Like I want to know why Sam would be so adamant about not taking the serum if he had a chance. 

I imagine most people suspected Walker was going to get the serum and break bad. But the way he did it was chilling. I thought he was going to use the shield to behead dude, and I'm glad that the editors showed some restraint. I fear he is going to go after Ayo and her crew just for some petty revenge now that he's jacked up.

[Hana Chan]

This whole series has been fantastic (and I'm really lamenting that it's going to be over soon, though I'm going to love binging the whole series at once), but this episode was a real stand out. I love stories where all the characters, protagonists and antagonists, are painted in shades of gray and I'm going to give the show credit... they're not afraid to let us see the humanity in everyone and understand their motivations even if we're going to disagree with their actions. That's not a think a lot of writers are comfortable with doing but so far, the show has managed to balance the understanding of what drives a character while still being critical of how they behave.

Lot of moving parts here, so here are my quick thoughts...

Bucky - the opening scene with Bucky was one of the most powerful and seeing Bucky allowing himself to be tested, trusting that Ayo would be able to stop him if the WS triggers were still active, was heartbreaking. He'd suffered so much for so long and had so little hope that Shuri's efforts would work. Seeing the tears and relief on his face when he realized that he was finally free of HYDRA's control... Sebastian Stan totally knocked it out of the park. And it's amazing at how he modulates his physical behaviors depending on the moment. Dealing with regular humans and he clearly holds himself back. He runs with Sam when he can easily outrun a car, and is able to punch someone without tearing out their spines. But when he has to cut loose... it's like a bullet being fired from a rifle. 

Zemo - Yeah, I knew that Zemo was going to Zemo at some point but I'll never complain when he's on my screen. As much fun as it is seeing him play sugar daddy to Sam and Bucky, I loved listening to his philosophical discussions and I have to say... I don't disagree with him on a lot of points. The super-powered individuals that are heroes do often seem to be the exceptions and I can't disagree with seeing that the collateral damage that they leave behind makes having a Thor or Hulk around a really questionable prospect. He does see having that level of power as inherently corrupting, which recalls Erskine's statement about the serum making the good better and the bad worse. Seeing him destroying the serum and questioning Sam if he would take the serum if it was offered really shows that he's not wrong about a lot of things. 

Sam - We're seeing very clearly now why Steve chose Sam as his successor, and it's precisely because of Erskine's philosophy. Yes, Sam will always be dependent upon tech and superior weapons and maybe Bucky is the only one that physically could match what Steve was capable of, but what Sam has is a clear moral compass and an understanding that not every conflict needs to end up a physical fight. Sam has empathy and compassion, while still recognizing that sometimes you have to fight those that you might otherwise agree with when they go too far. Which brings us to...

Karli - I can understand her motivations. It's understandable that for many people, the years before the Blip afforded them a lot of options that they wouldn't have had otherwise. With half the world's population suddenly removed, there were more opportunities for work and countries would happily allow people to move freely to do the necessary work that keep society running. Now with the full population back, there are shortages and states are reaffirming their boundaries in order to support their own populations. I get where she is coming from. But she has gone to the point of being a fanatic and a terrorist. She's killed people who's only fault was working for the governments that she disagrees with. And I'm waiting to see when the Flag Smashers start losing public support because of her actions. It's easy to support a group that feeds the hungry and steals medical supplies to help those left more or less stateless, but it's another when that same group blows up a building with captives in it, killing people needlessly. Or threatens a woman and her children. It's rare to see a character with that level of nuance.

Lamar - RIP. 

Walker - Yeah, losing his partner/friend sent him over the moral event horizon, but he was already heading there anyway. Like Karli, he is human and I understand where he is coming from. But it also shows why Erskine chose Steve vs the more physically capable soldiers. Steve was an imperfect soldier - he had a serious issue with authority and didn't follow orders more often than not, but he was dedicated to fighting for what he thought was right. Walker, OTOH, is a soldier down to his core. He talked about being awarded medals for actions that he obviously regrets, but he doesn't seem to have the capability of refusing orders that he thinks are wrong. Walker is a "good" soldier, in that he follows orders and acts in a manner than the higher ups would see as heroic, while Steve was a good man (even when it put him against TPTB). The serum didn't change that, and just made the situation worse. He reacted out of feeling inadequate after having Ayo handing him his ass on a plate and now he's a 'roided-up mess.

And I'm not going to get too precious about the shield being use to kill someone, as I'm sure that quite a few HYDRA agents that Steve ricocheted the shield off of ended up with a lot more than a few bruises. But like Karli, he killed someone that he didn't have to and he did it because his friend had just died. Worse, he did it to someone that wasn't guilty over Lamar's death. Even worse, he did it in full sight of the public. And worse of all, he did so in a brutal, cruel manner that forever stained the shield that he's carrying. The image of Captain America will irrevocably destroyed at that moment and I don't think that even Sam taking over the mantle will change things.

[Chicago Redshirt]

An aside: I first heard of Turkish Delight from reading The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. The titular witch uses it as a way to tempt one of the heroes into betraying the rest. It sounded so good reading about it as a kid, but when I actually tried it as an adult Ii was disappointed because it was NASTY (at least to me). That shiznit would not have made me betray anybody!

Anyway, I assume the writers were deliberately doing a reference to that by specifying that candy.

They were also infusing Zemo with serious pedo/creep vibes. 

[absnow54]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Edited to add: they’re gonna make us wait til the finale for a post credits scene, aren’t they?

If Wandavision is any indication, we got the first post-credit scene during the penultimate episode.

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

I also laughed at how quick (and given his personal history how fitting) Bucky's clarification was that they were not friends with the Nazis.

Definitely the line of the episode.

I'm bummed that Lamar got killed, he's been the only tolerable part of the Walker story. I wasn't sure what direction they were going to take Walker in when he was first introduced, but after today's episode, there's no way he's surviving this series!

[paigow]

Walker will get "cancelled", Zemo will continue hunting Karli while evading the Wakandan Fugitive Recovery Squad...

[swanpride]

Regarding the Serum: The reason why it is so dangerous is because it amplifies everything. It amplified a Nazi into a Supernazi, it amplified Hydra Soldiers into uncontrollable killing machines, which is btw exactly the reason why it was always pretty useless for Hydra, because the kind of people who can take the serum and NOT becoming crazy are not the kind of people who would work for Hydra.

This in mind Carly and her people must have actually be pretty good people originally, because at least they aren't completely crazy. Their moral compass got screwed up somewhat, but that is most likely largely the result of the serum amplifying their readiness to use violence to reach their goals.

I actually think that Sam could take the serum without going crazy, but ironically a person like him wouldn't take it. Steve did it because it was his only shot to fight for his country. Bucky never had a choice in the first place.

And can we appreciate what a great guy Bucky was before getting dosed?

[tv echo]

57 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I haven't seen this yet, but I do remember Erskine telling Steve that the serum brings "out" the power of what the person is inside--it corrupted Red Skull, but since Steve is a good man, an honorable man--power good. Or something like that. So since Walker has been a douche all along, no surprise at reading what the serum "did" to him. 

Here is what Dr. Erskine said about the effects of the super serum (Erskine-Steve scene on YouTube)....

Dr. Erskine: "The serum amplifies everything that is inside. So good becomes great. Bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because the strong man who has known power all his life, they lose respect for that power. But a weak man knows the value of strength and knows compassion. ... Whatever happens tomorrow, you must promise me one thing. That you will stay who you are. Not a perfect soldier. But a good man."

So, as others have said, taking the super serum amplified whatever was already inside Walker. Also, since Walker has always been a "strong" man and a winner in his life, he has never been the "weak" man or the underdog, so he lacks compassion and an understanding of true strength. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by tv echo

[AimingforYoko]

All you need to know about John Walker was how he introduced himself to everybody, "John Walker, Captain America." And that wasn't for their benefit, that was for his. It's fairly obvious he felt Imposter Syndrome pretty strongly. The ass-kicking from the Dora Milaje was just the final straw.

It's pretty apparent once the video gets out the Gov't will ask for the shield back, the question is, will he give it?

[Spartan Girl]

I noticed that the Power Broker’s text threat to Karli threatening to kill her if she “took the serum away” from him was eerily reminiscent of Dickweed Ross’ threat to Bruce back in The Incredible Hulk, when he told him that he’d put him in a hole so deep he’d never crawl out of if he “took (the serum/Hulk) away from him.”

Power Broker is Ross, people! I’m calling it.

[Vanderboom]

4 hours ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

This was also a great Sam episode. That conversation with Karli was practically screaming "This is why he should be Captain America!"  Or maybe that was just me yelling it in my bedroom, lol. Damn Walker for once again making situations worse. 

Poor Lemar. I thought he was going to be killed while tied up, I thought all that water dripping was really gas and they were going to blow the place up.

I'm with you on all of this. I like how "would you take the serum" is now a morality test. They've managed to make Empathy look like the real superpower.

This episode definitely ratcheted up the "oh, shit" factor, with Zemo now on the run from the Dora Milaje, and the viral Super!Captain America video. He didn't just lose Lamar; he lost his mind. Of course, this parallels Steve losing Bucky, so I'm real interested in seeing Bucky's reaction to Captain America using the hallowed Shield to beat an unarmed man to death in a vengeful rage.

[swanpride]

though honestly, how little I care about "Battlestar" dying shows how little time they spend on developing him as a character. He was from the get go just an extension of Walker, and never really became a character in his own right.

[KittenPokerCheater]

Good God.

More later when I've had the chance to process it.

[Hana Chan]

52 minutes ago, swanpride said:

though honestly, how little I care about "Battlestar" dying shows how little time they spend on developing him as a character. He was from the get go just an extension of Walker, and never really became a character in his own right.

He really didn't exist as anything more than Walker's morality pet. I liked him primarily because he had a more clear-eyed view of what being CA should mean and wanted to help his friend achieve that. But his existence, and death, was pretty much reduced to motiving Walker. Which is a shame. And I probably would have found it more compelling if he'd been killed accidently by Walker while he was unused to his super strength.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Hana Chan

[Gin and Tonic]

Ayo literally disarming Bucky makes me wonder what he really thinks about the arm. In Infinity War he was exhausted and depressed to see it because it meant another fight. But he obviously kept it afterward. Is he happy he’s got the most advanced prosthesis, or is it a constant reminder of the body horror he went through? He was stunned Ayo could disable it and take it off. Was he unaware it could be could be removed at all (meaning when he put it on in Infinity War he was accepting putting it on again, forever)? 

Sam continues to be the absolute best. He’s just fundamentally decent and caring and I love that about him. Easy to see why Steven thought Sam should be the new Cap. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Gin and Tonic

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

They were also infusing Zemo with serious pedo/creep vibes. 

 

I love the inherent darkness of the scene. With Zemo singing and luring the kids over with candy, the only thing missing was a nasty, rusted-out van with its windows spray painted black. So, unbelievably creepy of Zemo.

3 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

This episode was chef's kiss. The Dora Milaje making a total ass out of Walker while Bucky threw shade gave me so much life that I had to rewind it like 4 times.

 

I wish someone had done more than tell walker not to mess with Dora Milaje. Someone should have told him even with the serum he probably wouldn't have won that fight. The Dora are, in every canon, the most well-trained fighters in the world.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

It's pretty apparent once the video gets out the Gov't will ask for the shield back, the question is, will he give it?

I actually think that the line he said might prove to be true: if he gets the job done, nobody's going to care about how he does it. As brutal as what we saw was, it is capable of being spun. The person killed was a terrorist who was complicit in numerous previous killings and Cap's best friend. There undoubtedly would be people in a real world equivalent who would be like, "Hell yeah! Cap's not holding back!"

I think the bigger problem for Walker is that he's not getting the job done, and it doesn't seem like he's capable of it. All he's done so far is follow Sam and Bucky and mess their stuff up.

52 minutes ago, swanpride said:

though honestly, how little I care about "Battlestar" dying shows how little time they spend on developing him as a character. He was from the get go just an extension of Walker, and never really became a character in his own right.

I think that Lamar humanized John somewhat and served as a possible check. He is more a symbol than a character, but such is life. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Ladies and gentlemen, Wakanda is in the house!

Bucky's face when Ayo took his arm was priceless. I liked that she pointed out the debt he owes, since I guess they didn't know he was planning to free Zemo. I think the opening scene is the first time I've ever gotten verklempt on his behalf, that he was just so happy and relieved and grateful to be out from under the yoke of his alter ego at last.

Somebody remind me how Karli is the bad guy. Fine, she blew up those soldiers and Lamar didn't deserve to die like that, but I'm pretty sure those army guys were keeping the supplies for the refugees for themselves, and what Walker did to that guy at the end was exponentially worse than what happened to Battlestar. He was acting like he was on steroids even before he took the remaining vial of serum, but it requires intention to beat a man to death with the shield. In front of a crowd of witnesses, no less. Ya'll thought Bucky would be in trouble for slamming people through walls in Madripoor? Yeesh.

1 hour ago, Vanderboom said:

I like how "would you take the serum" is now a morality test.

It always was. As was mentioned upthread, Erskine's experience with Red Skull underlined the amplifying powers of the serum, that if you're a jerk, it'll just make you a bigger jerk. Even Steve could be moralistic and "I know best" on occasion, though usually for the right reasons.

One small thing: Walker put his hands on Zemo to stop him from walking past him, and Zemo ends up brushing John's hands aside. Like, dude, you're touching me. Which will later come back stronger when he puts his hands on Ayo. Somebody should have taught him not to be so damn grabby.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Cobalt Stargazer

[VCRTracking]

Well, damn. 

Never realized until now what a shock blood on that shield would be.

[absnow54]

16 minutes ago, steelyis said:

I wish someone had done more than tell walker not to mess with Dora Milaje. Someone should have told him even with the serum he probably wouldn't have won that fight. The Dora are, in every canon, the most well-trained fighters in the world.

Bucky certainly didn't have an upper hand with it.

[AimingforYoko]

8 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Bucky certainly didn't have an upper hand with it.

I see what you did there.

[calliope1975]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

The super-powered individuals that are heroes do often seem to be the exceptions and I can't disagree with seeing that the collateral damage that they leave behind makes having a Thor or Hulk around a really questionable prospect.

I think even with Hulk and Thor we've seen they are also the exceptions. They tried to replicate Hulk and got Abomination. And Thor's also fought similarly powered Loki and Hela. It's because Bruce Banner and Thor are inherently good that they can wield that power - and at least BB/Hulk knew to remove himself from civilization while he got control over himself. 

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

It's pretty apparent once the video gets out the Gov't will ask for the shield back, the question is, will he give it?

It would not surprise me one iota if the Govt embraced a murdery Cap, sadly.

The last 10 minutes were very stressful for me, and I couldn't watch Walker defile the Shield like that. But damn, that final image. I could totally see that as a comic cover or the end page.

I'm glad Zemo got away. It keeps him on the board for maybe more fun shenanigans in the future, and I am supremely confident that if the Dora want to find him, they will. I also appreciated that he was sincere in his goal of getting rid of super soldiers. None of this - well, maybe I should keep some/try it. Nope. He saw those vials and got all smashy. 

RIP Lamar. I did enjoy your expressions as you realized your bestie was starting to lose it. You deserved better than to die for that white man. 

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

34 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Bucky certainly didn't have an upper hand with it.

"Did you know they could do that?"

[VCRTracking]

Sebastian really impressed me with that opening flashback. So many emotions he went through. I was tearing up by the end.

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Somebody remind me how Karli is the bad guy.

To me Karli is "a" bad guy because - while a a lot of her goals and ideas may be good - her methods of achieving them are not.  And threatening Sam's sister and her children proves that.  She also has a messiah complex that rubs me the wrong way.

[cambridgeguy]

I wonder how long it will be before someone bitches about how Lemar was only in the story to get killed and drive Walker over the edge.  Although it's proof that when you're a regular person fighting super soldiers you probably shouldn't engage in hand to hand combat.

The military would be completely OK with Walker killing enemies in combat but they're not going to be fine with him caving in a person's chest when he's lying on the ground and begging for mercy. 

And apparently head tilt = evil.  Walker was doing it a lot in this episode.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

36 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

But damn, that final image. I could totally see that as a comic cover or the end page.

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

An aside: I first heard of Turkish Delight from reading The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. The titular witch uses it as a way to tempt one of the heroes into betraying the rest. It sounded so good reading about it as a kid, but when I actually tried it as an adult Ii was disappointed because it was NASTY (at least to me). That shiznit would not have made me betray anybody!

Whenever anyone references this, I always feel compelled to point out that a) the book is set during a period of strict wartime rationing, so the allure of sweeties would be enhanced because kids didn't get them often, and b) the Turkish Delight was enchanted, because the witch wasn't taking any chances. So the kid didn't betray everyone because of how great Turkish Delight is (it isn't). He took the first piece because he didn't get sweets often, and then betrayed everyone because he was under an enchantment.

[Jediknight]

There is blood on the shield!  The shield was used to kill somebody.

The government's gonna be blowing up Sam's phone, with "Look, we made some mistakes.  We know you broke out Zemo, we don't give a shit.  Can you please take the shield away from Walker?  We had no idea he would murder somebody with the shield.  We'll do whatever you want.  Just please take up the mantle of Captain America."

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

But Walker, yeah, he is just wrong at every turn. He is wrong about why Steve was the kind of hero he was (which was not because of a Serum or a Shield), he is wrong about interrupting Sam's attempt to talk Carly down, and I can't express enough how much it grated to have have him talk about jurisdiction. Hey, a-hole, last time I checked Europe was not part of the United States of America. He is really everything people feared a Captain America created by Hollywood would look like pre 2011.

Yup, everyone knows that you just walk in and do what you need to do without bothering to justify having the legal right to be there because you know you're doing the right thing.  That's the way its been done ever since Tony first flew off to Afghanistan in his Iron Man suit.

[paigow]

23 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

The government's gonna be blowing up Sam's phone, with "Look, we made some mistakes.  We know you broke out Zemo, we don't give a shit.  Can you please take the shield away from Walker?  We had no idea he would murder somebody with the shield.  We'll do whatever you want.  Just please take up the mantle of Captain America."

Sam: Let me kill that motherfucker from the bank and you got a deal...

[FnkyChkn34]

4 hours ago, festivus said:

What did Ayo say to Bucky after she dropped his arm? Couldn't hear it.

According to the closed captions, she said:  "(Speaking Wakandan) James."  I don't think they want us to know, unless someone here speaks Xhosa.

As for the episode as a whole... wow.  Steve never would have done that. 

[paigow]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

As for the episode as a whole... wow.  Steve never would have done that. 

If the Tessaract had not teleported Red Skull, Steve would have killed him with prejudice- for Bucky

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I think even with Hulk and Thor we've seen they are also the exceptions. They tried to replicate Hulk and got Abomination. And Thor's also fought similarly powered Loki and Hela. It's because Bruce Banner and Thor are inherently good that they can wield that power - and at least BB/Hulk knew to remove himself from civilization while he got control over himself. 

It would not surprise me one iota if the Govt embraced a murdery Cap, sadly.

The last 10 minutes were very stressful for me, and I couldn't watch Walker defile the Shield like that. But damn, that final image. I could totally see that as a comic cover or the end page.

I'm glad Zemo got away. It keeps him on the board for maybe more fun shenanigans in the future, and I am supremely confident that if the Dora want to find him, they will. I also appreciated that he was sincere in his goal of getting rid of super soldiers. None of this - well, maybe I should keep some/try it. Nope. He saw those vials and got all smashy. 

RIP Lamar. I did enjoy your expressions as you realized your bestie was starting to lose it. You deserved better than to die for that white man. 

 

I don't think Bruce in particular but also to a certain extent Thor are "inherently good." But that may be a discussion to take over to the MCU thread, along with the white hero-black hero thoughts triggered by the last line of your post. 

Wakanda somehow was not able to get Klaw's scent for 35 years when he stole a shit-ton of vibranium from them. And Zemo is many times smarter than Klaw and (presumably) has more resources. So I think that there is unfortunately a chance that he can elude the DM. 

[Capricasix]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

An aside: I first heard of Turkish Delight from reading The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. The titular witch uses it as a way to tempt one of the heroes into betraying the rest. It sounded so good reading about it as a kid, but when I actually tried it as an adult Ii was disappointed because it was NASTY (at least to me). That shiznit would not have made me betray anybody!

Yes! Right down to the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe part!