S01.E04: The Whole World Is Watching

[Chicago Redshirt]

45 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Whenever anyone references this, I always feel compelled to point out that a) the book is set during a period of strict wartime rationing, so the allure of sweeties would be enhanced because kids didn't get them often, and b) the Turkish Delight was enchanted, because the witch wasn't taking any chances. So the kid didn't betray everyone because of how great Turkish Delight is (it isn't). He took the first piece because he didn't get sweets often, and then betrayed everyone because he was under an enchantment.

Fair enough. But what I'm saying is that if it was me, that enchantment wouldn't have been able to take hold because I would have spat that nastiness out. In fact, it probably would have backfired.

"I'm a pre-teen boy. You probably could have had me turn on my family and goddang Aslan for a chance to see for myself if there's any truth to the expression 'cold as a witch's tit.' But you tried to get me to do it by feeding me that stuff? Not today, chica!"

43 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

There is blood on the shield!  The shield was used to kill somebody.

The government's gonna be blowing up Sam's phone, with "Look, we made some mistakes.  We know you broke out Zemo, we don't give a shit.  Can you please take the shield away from Walker?  We had no idea he would murder somebody with the shield.  We'll do whatever you want.  Just please take up the mantle of Captain America."

Let's keep it real -- there's not a chance that Steve hasn't killed with the shield, whether it was Nazis/Hydra agents, Chitauri, or whoever. It's just that he probably never did so as brutally, in cold blood, and with numerous people to document it.

Even if the government were going to want to disown CosplayCap, they would not want to give the shield to Sam anyway. They would simply want to repossess it and give it to CosploayCap 2 Super-Soldier Bugaloo. They want someone who will take orders, someone who will be photogenic, and someone white. I said what I said.

[Gin and Tonic]

29 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

According to the closed captions, she said:  "(Speaking Wakandan) James."  I don't think they want us to know, unless someone here speaks Xhosa.

I think she said, “Bast damn you, James.”

[thuganomics85]

Damn, shit's getting real now!

Fare thee well, Lamar.  While I think his loyalty to John was misplaced, I at least respected the fact that he would actually listen to Sam and Bucky's suggestions and actually wanted to try and end things nonviolently as possible.  Not saying that he really deserved the Shield either, but at least he would have probably been a better Captain America than John, because he wouldn't have let his ego get in the way all of the time.  I wish we got a little more time with him to make his death really mean something, but Cle Bennett was still able to make the most of his screen time.

But, yeah, Lamar's death has certainly pushed John off the deep end: possibly for good.  Even if his victim was one of the Flag Smashers, straight-up murdering an unarmed man in broad daylight with the Shield is not something a real Captain America would do.  Combine that with his normal insecurities, arrogance, and temper, and him with the serum is definitely not going to be a good thing. 

The Dora Milaje certainly reminded everyone why they are practically untouchable.  Owned not just John and Lamar with ease, but even took down both Sam and Bucky when they tried to interfere.  Maybe they should have been the first ones to take on Thanos first!  Granted, it did end with them not accomplishing their goals, since while all of it was going, Zemo hilariously pulled a Snagglepuss and was all "Exit Stage Left!", and got the hell out of there.  Having a feeling we'll be seeing his smug ass again.  I wonder if he took more Turkish Delights with him, so that he can continue to build his child army (kidding!  I think...)

The scene between Sam and Karli was great, and really shows that Sam truly would have been the perfect Captain America.  There's still time, I hope!

While I still think Karli has enough layers and understandable motivations to not just be an one-dimensional villain, threatening Sam's sister and nephews; even if it was just an act; is going to be something that will be hard to walk back.  I think she truly does think she is doing the right thing, but this is another case of someone who has noble goals, but is trying to accomplish them the worst way possible.

Still wondering what the deal is with Sharon and if she is connected to (or possible is) the Power Broker.

Great episode.

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Let's keep it real -- there's not a chance that Steve hasn't killed with the shield, whether it was Nazis/Hydra agents, Chitauri, or whoever. It's just that he probably never did so as brutally, in cold blood, and with numerous people to document it.

Right.  That's what I meant, at least.  I think it's obvious that Steve killed with the shield - but there were probably all faceless "bad guys" and he probably didn't do it when he clearly had the upper hand and could have just arrested the person instead.

[ProudMary]

5 hours ago, festivus said:

What did Ayo say to Bucky after she dropped his arm? Couldn't hear it.

 

8 minutes ago, Gin and Tonic said:

I think she said, “Bast damn you, James.”

That's exactly what she said. I immediately went back and listened to it twice more. Nice call back. T'Challa references the goddess Bast when telling Natasha about the Wakandan view of death, afterlife and the ancestral plane when they spoke outside shortly after King T'Chaka was killed.

Speaking of T'Challa, in Civil War when he's fighting Captain America during the airport scene, he scratches his vibranium claws on Cap's shield and you can see the damage to the shield from the claw marks. Flash forward to the Ayo/Walker fight: Wakandan spears are vibranium tipped, yet there was no visible damage to the shield. I'm pretty sure we have confirmation that this shield is adamantium.

[paigow]

Did Zemo con the kid by giving her 500 Sokovian Rubles? Or were those actual Euros?

[Lebanna]

12 minutes ago, paigow said:

Did Zemo con the kid by giving her 500 Sokovian Rubles? Or were those actual Euros?

It was the right color and design for a 500€ note. No idea where you could spend it, as everyone is super suspicious of those.

In fact, the 500€ notes are still legal tender but the central bank doesn’t even issue them anymore and hasn’t for a few years because they are too easily used for dodgy dealings. Which... yeah. That makes sense.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Lebanna

[vb68]

51 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Owned not just John and Lamar with ease, but even took down both Sam and Bucky when they tried to interfere. 

I think Bucky is probably lucky that they didn't just take the arm back.  You can certainly argue they would had been justified in doing so.

Quote

While I still think Karli has enough layers and understandable motivations to not just be an one-dimensional villain, threatening Sam's sister and nephews; even if it was just an act; is going to be something that will be hard to walk back.

I wonder if Sam changes his tone on her now. He'll certainly still see the whole picture in context fully. Just saying  that would be stopping point for most people in trying to help or defend someone.

Edited April 9, 2021 by vb68

[ProudMary]

2 minutes ago, vb68 said:

I think Bucky is probably lucky that they didn't just take the arm back.  You can certainly argue they would had been justified in doing so.

Yes. I was kind of expecting exactly that, and from the shocked look on Bucky's face, it seemed to me that he was thinking the same thing.

Sebastian Stan's performance in this entire episode was outstanding.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Speaking of T'Challa, in Civil War when he's fighting Captain America during the airport scene, he scratches his vibranium claws on Cap's shield and you can see the damage to the shield from the claw marks. Flash forward to the Ayo/Walker fight: Wakandan spears are vibranium tipped, yet there was no visible damage to the shield. I'm pretty sure we have confirmation that this shield is adamantium.

Did they hit the shield? I saw the part where one of the spears went through the strap on the back of it, and Walker couldn't get it loose, but I couldn't tell if they hit the surface of it or not.

39 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

The Dora Milaje certainly reminded everyone why they are practically untouchable.  Owned not just John and Lamar with ease, but even took down both Sam and Bucky when they tried to interfere. 

I was kind of annoyed that Bucky chose that moment to try reasoning with Ayo. She clearly didn't know he was planning to break Zemo out of prison, so she's justified about being pissed, and then Walker was on her nerves. Like, let her have her teaching moment, Barnes.

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Speaking of T'Challa, in Civil War when he's fighting Captain America during the airport scene, he scratches his vibranium claws on Cap's shield and you can see the damage to the shield from the claw marks. Flash forward to the Ayo/Walker fight: Wakandan spears are vibranium tipped, yet there was no visible damage to the shield. I'm pretty sure we have confirmation that this shield is adamantium.

It's MCU canon from Cap 1 that the shield is vibranium with no mention of admantium. 

As to why the vibranium spears did not inflict damage on the shield, it could be that the claws in T'Challa's suit are a purer form of vibranium than the spears, were sharper relative the spears, had more/difference force applied than the spears, etc.  I think it's a common enough real-world phenomenon that in one instance a scrape of one metal against another might cause damage but a collision of one type of metal against the same would not.

 

[absnow54]

Never mind. Got scenes messed up...

Edited April 9, 2021 by absnow54

[Minneapple]

It says a lot that fucking Zemo is more likeable than Generic Store Brand Cap.

2 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Didn't the original shield get cracked and destroyed during Civil War. I thought Cap's final shield was the one Tony gave to him during Endgame, when they made up. 

Tony tells Steve "He made it for you," the he meaning Howard. It was the original shield.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Minneapple

[swanpride]

Well, Bucky spend a year in Wakanda, they most likely know his psychology in and out, and he actually learned the language and became integrated enough that he got his own title. There is a deep friendship there, which is why he got the 8 hours in the first place.

I am not sure how Bucky feels about his arm, I mean, he was without it pretty much from Civil war to Infinity war and got along just fine, but then, having only one arm really sucks, especially when you can't run around wrapped in fabric anymore.

Speaking of Civil war, anyone else who was reminded of Steve crashing down the shield on Tony? That was him at his most enraged, and he still managed to deliver a controlled blow. Unlike Walker.

Btw, I don't really expect the US government to reign Walker in. I expect that there will be some public pressure needed for them to do something/anything.

 

Yeah, the 500 Euro note is rare. I actually used to own two of them, but I rather exchanged them then risking them loosing their worth. It's actually a pretty good pick, because it both shows that Zemo is most likely involved in shady dealing, and that the child was still pretty naive, or she would have insisted on being paid in smaller notes which are easier to spend. (Though I guess it is equally likely that it was an accidental choice).

 

[oliverwendell]

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

 

RIP Lamar. I did enjoy your expressions as you realized your bestie was starting to lose it. You deserved better than to die for that white man. 

 

I've read comments elsewhere about the show "fridging" Lamar to service John Walker's story. I get where these comments are coming from, but I'm inclined to give the show's writers/creators the benefit of the doubt on this one, especially since there are so many people of color involved in shaping the narrative and one of its driving themes is whether America would ever accept a Black Captain America.

In fact, I think there's an argument to made that by employing this trope here they are actually subverting it. John Walker's Captain America has been presented as the dark side of American exceptionalism from the start, especially the strain of "exceptionalism" that translates as "white supremacy." (In other words, the idea that the best parts of America are the white parts.) In a story where that kind of hero is exalted, he would have a Black sidekick, and his trusty Kemo Sabe/Sancho would have to die so he could realize his full potential. But that's not what happened here. Lamar dying pushed John straight to the dark side, and he's clearly not going to be redeemed. So I think we are supposed to see the supremacist cruelty in that trope through how it plays out in this episode. Also, I expect the narrative to draw pointed contrasts between Sam and John in this regard. After all, this is Sam's Captain America origin story, not John Walker's, and unlike John, Sam won't need a loyal sidekick to die to make him who he's destined to be.

Edited April 9, 2021 by oliverwendell

[swanpride]

I actually had a similar thought. It's also a nice contrast to Sam, who actually had more of a character even back in The Winter Soldier, when he pretty much had the sidekick role.

Speaking of sidekicks...what actually happened to the guy from the first episode? The one hanging around with Sam? Did I miss something?

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Right.  That's what I meant, at least.  I think it's obvious that Steve killed with the shield - but there were probably all faceless "bad guys" and he probably didn't do it when he clearly had the upper hand and could have just arrested the person instead.

Yeah, there's a difference between killing in a battle, a life or death situation, where Steve is also protecting people.  If anybody Steve was fighting had no weapon, and was on the ground, no way in hell would Steve kill them.

Walker chased after the Flag Smashers with the full intention of killing any he came across.

Even after Bucky "died" in First Avenger, Steve didn't kill Zola.  Steve and the commandos captured him.

5 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I actually had a similar thought. It's also a nice contrast to Sam, who actually had more of a character even back in The Winter Soldier, when he pretty much had the sidekick role.

Speaking of sidekicks...what actually happened to the guy from the first episode? The one hanging around with Sam? Did I miss something?

Torres is still around, Sam was on the phone with him in the last episode.

[VCRTracking]

 

 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

I love MCU Cap as much as the next guy. But I don't buy the notion that he might not lose it if someone had just murdered Bucky or Sam (or someone he similarly was close to) right in front of him, and particularly if that murderer was a terrorist.

In fact, it strikes me that Zemo would not/should not have conceded that Cap was pure good. Instead of "Touche," he should have said, "It was just a matter of time before even the noble Steve Rogers abused his abilities. Power corrupts. There is no getting around it." 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[FnkyChkn34]

29 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Tony tells Steve "He made it for you," the he meaning Howard. It was the original shield.

Regarding Cap's shield:  Steve left his shield at the end of Civil War, and Tony kept it for him, giving it back later.  But then didn't that one then get destroyed in Endgame? 

Spoiler

I think Old Steve came back at the end of Endgame with a "new" shield that he must have got in the alternate universe and brought back.  But Wikipedia says it was the same shield, just somehow repaired.  I don't think repairs make much sense...

(Spoiler tag just in case.  It's a comment about the end of Endgame and something from Wikipedia but I get confused what is allowed is which forums...)  

[tennisgurl]

That was a great episode, probably the best one so far, but holy shit it just got real. The imagine of Walker standing over the man he beat to death with the bloody shield is definitely the money shot of the series so far, what a chilling image of what this Captain America has become. If this was a comic, that would be the big double page ending of the issue, maybe even the cover of the next issue. Now the whole world has an imagine of Cap as not a symbol of hope, but a guy beating an unarmed man begging for mercy being beaten to death on a busy street while onlookers watch in horror. This episode had so much going on, things just kept escalating. The Flag Smashers have gotten more violent, Zemo has escaped while the Dora Milaje are looking for him, and now Walker has finally gone off the deep end after Lamar died and he finally took the serum. What makes it even worse is that the guy he killed was the same guy who said he was a big Cap fan and that he made him believe that people could be good. If Cap sees that bloody shield from the Moon, he is going to be pissed. 

I think this was the episode where I really started understanding the Flag Smashers and what their goals are, and you can see the good in a lot of their goals and philosophies. After The Snap there were so few people around that people migrated around a lot more and found new homes and jobs and lives, and now that everyone is back all of these people have no place to go or are being told to leave their homes to get things back to "normal" and they feel ignored. The Flag Smashers want to keep people where they found a home, to get rid of the borders that got lose and help displaced people, and those are all things I can get behind, its just the way they have done it that is less good. Sam's interactions with Karli really show why he is the right person to be the next Captain America, he can understand her and why she is doing this, feels great empathy for her and for the people like her, and he really wanted to find a peaceful ending to this. I am sure Steve would have very similar feelings about Karli, that her intentions and ideals are noble but the way she is going about it isn't the right way. Its so frustrating, Sam was this close to getting through to Karli, he was building trust with her, he was getting her to see the mistakes she was making, and I think he really could have ended this peacefully...and then Walker came stomping in to ruin everything. 

It sucks that Lemar had to die, he actually seemed to have his head on straighter than Walker and could actually keep him grounded, but his death mixed with finally taking the serum finally led to Walker cracking. It had been coming pretty gradually, but getting beat up by the Dora Milaje made him take the serum, which I think is very telling. Walker has always had things go well for him, he has always been the golden boy, he was always the winner. Steve on the other hand, knew what it was to be pushed around, he knew that when you got knocked down you had to get back up again. When Walker got knocked down, he took an easy way out because his pride couldn't handle getting beaten, and by non super soldiers at that. That I think is a big difference, Steve took the serum because he wanted to stand up for people who couldn't stand up for themselves, while Walker took it because he was mad that he lost and annoyed that being Captain American wasn't easy for him like everything else has been. 

This was a great Sam episode, it really shows why Sam is the right man to be the next Cap. He has strong morals, he's empathetic, and while he can throw down when needed he will always try to find a peaceful resolution if he can. Its very telling that when Zemo asked if he would take the serum Sam immediately shot it down, to Zemo's approval, while Walker took the serum as soon as he could. I also liked his response to Zemo philosophizing about how super beings are gods and why they shouldn't be, and Sam pointed out that he sure did sound like someone who wants to play god himself, and not even Zemo had a good response. And while this was mostly a Sam centric episode, Bucky had a lot of great moments, his flashbacks to being deprogrammed in Wakanda were really great, you could feel the shocked relief right through the screen as he realized he was finally free and that his mind was his own for the first time in almost a century. I also loved his reaction to Walker getting his ass kicked by the Dora Milaje, he was this close to grabbing a bag of popcorn. "Looking strong, John!" 

The great tragedy could end up being that both Karli and her people and Walker both end up destined for the same tragic ends. I do think that they both started with good intentions and were actually decent people, but after losing people close to them and taking the serum, which amplified their worst impulses and took those good intentions and threw them away, leaving only violent extremists behind. 

"Don't engage him. He's just gonna extort you and do that stupid head tilt thing." 

*Zemo, who is doing just that, straightens his head self contiously.* 

[swanpride]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I love MCU Cap as much as the next guy. But I don't buy the notion that he might not lose it if someone had just murdered Bucky or Sam (or someone he similarly was close to) right in front of him, and particularly if that person was a terrorist.

Well, I guess you have to, because Steve already proved that he wouldn't lose it, because he didn't kill Zola for seemingly killing Bucky, and he didn't kill Tony either for nearly killing Bucky. Cap has killed for sure, but never for revenge and never an unarmed man.

Yes, Cap's shield was destroyed in Endgame, hence it is kind of a mystery where the one he gives Sam in the end even came from. The current one also seems to lack the scratches which were on the original shield pretty much since its first appearance.

Side-note: One day I want to see a knife fight between Loki and Bucky.

 

[Dandesun]

4 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Speaking of Civil war, anyone else who was reminded of Steve crashing down the shield on Tony? That was him at his most enraged, and he still managed to deliver a controlled blow. Unlike Walker.

Btw, I don't really expect the US government to reign Walker in. I expect that there will be some public pressure needed for them to do something/anything.

 

I was very much reminded of Civil War with Steve bringing that shield down on Tony and even Tony had his arms raised to ward off a possible killing blow...  but, Steve was never going to do that. It was about incapacitating the suit so he could get Bucky the hell out of there.

Yes, Steve has killed people. He was a soldier and when he came out of the ice, being a soldier was all he really felt he had to fall back on, but that's not what he was when he was given the serum. Steve did shift from 'I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies, I don't care where they're from' to wanting to wipe Hydra off the face of the earth after Bucky fell. And he probably would have killed the Red Skull on the Valkyrie if the Tesseract hadn't sent him off to Vormir to be the gatekeeper for the Soul Stone. Would it have been an act of wrath the way Walker killing the Flag-Smasher was? I don't think so... They were on a plane loaded with bombs set on a course to kill thousands if not millions. More importantly, if Steve had managed to incapacitate the Red Skull he still would have taken them both down into the ice due to the damage to the plane because, ultimately, not delivering those payloads was more important than anything else.

Also? I'm never going to weep over the thought of the Red Skull getting killed. Super Nazis can suck it.

Walker flat out murdered a man who was running away and when he caught up was NOT fighting back.

I don't expect Bearded Government Dickweed to be particularly upset about what Walker did... he's going to be upset at the bad press this will result in.

And the whole thing was very Greek tragedy. You had that whole build-up when John and Lamar were talking about the serum. Lamar insisting that 3 Medals of Honor meant that John absolutely deserved the serum if there was a chance. How many lives could they have saved if they had it in Afghanistan. John commented on the things they had to do there not feeling right but that being Captain America DID feel right... that's the tragedy.

That scene of Bucky in Wakanda was beautiful. I mean, I'm not surprised. Crying has been Sebastian Stan's bread and butter for a lot of years. Still... I really loved that scene. Not only did we see that moment of Bucky realizing he was free of the words but it established that trust between him and Ayo that has been bruised in regards to Zemo. Ayo's loyalty to T'Chaka beyond the grave because he chose them... he chose HER, I also think was a beautiful moment.

But I agree that this was very definitely Sam's episode. When he immediately rejected the serum I saw less Samwise Gamgee and more Faramir because Sam, too, is a warrior but one who will choose compassion. He was para-rescue, for fuck's sake, he's always been about helping. I particularly liked that he didn't go alone when requested by Karli after she called Sarah. Sam is compassionate but he's not stupid. You don't get to cross a line like that and just have him go 'okay... guess I'll go alone.'

I still think it's laughable that Zemo goes on about supremist when he's royalty. That bit with the Turkish Delight (and, yes, I also saw the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when that came up... fitting because Zemo is also a villain) and the children was less creepy-pedo vibes and far more Prince among the Paupers. I shall stroll amongst these commoners and give them sweets and they shall tell me their tales. I also thought it telling that even Zemo admitted that Steve wasn't corrupted and that he was singular. (Although I noted that Bucky specified Steve because he  probably feels that the serum DID corrupt him due to what Hydra was able to turn him into.)

At this point, I do wonder if Sam will be able to talk John Walker down. At this point... I wouldn't trust anyone else to do it.

And, yes, that final shot of the bloody shield was pure comic book. Well done.

[swanpride]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I also loved his reaction to Walker getting his ass kicked by the Dora Milaje, he was this close to grabbing a bag of popcorn. "Looking strong, John!" 

Honestly, I don't think that he would have gotten involved in the fight at all if not for the Dora Milaje getting a little bit too stabby during it. I also loved that Sam and Bucky were both "yeah, well Dora Milaje, don't expect to be able to defeat them even with superpowers".

[Ailianna]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

One small thing: Walker put his hands on Zemo to stop him from walking past him, and Zemo ends up brushing John's hands aside. Like, dude, you're touching me. Which will later come back stronger when he puts his hands on Ayo. Somebody should have taught him not to be so damn grabby.

He grabbed Bucky too when Bucky was blocking the door to where Karli and Sam were talking. I thought there would be a fight there too and I'm still not sure how Walker got past Bucky then. 

[swanpride]

I wonder how Zemo feels about Bucky. Zemo is happily shooting supersoldiers left and right, but he seems to have little intention to end Bucky for some reason.

There is also I noticed during todays episode: I really liked the "core Avengers". Overall, I enjoyed their movies. And yet, it kind of feels like we are now getting to the "interesting" Superheroes. The ones who aren't millionaires, or gods, or adored as ideal by the public, but who have a deeply tragic backstory and are in one way or another outsiders to society. Who will always be found lacking by the public for no good reason.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

28 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In fact, it strikes me that Zemo would not/should not have conceded that Cap was pure good. Instead of "Touche," he should have said, "It was just a matter of time before even the noble Steve Rogers abused his abilities. Power corrupts. There is no getting around it." 

"Now that I see you, I see there's a little bit of green in the blue of your eyes. How nice to find a flaw."

The argument can be made, IMO, that Steve's flaw was not unlike Tony's. Doing what he thought was right rather than the right thing, which isn't the same thing. No one within the MCU universe has ever acknowledged that Steve had his own agenda when the Accords first became a thing, although Rhodey touched on it a little bit when he noted that Cap's attitude was dangerously arrogant. I wouldn't call it abuse of the abilities he was given by the serum, but there is something to be said for Rogers being willing to turn his back on everything he believed in, to the point of dropping the shield like trash and leaving it behind, just for the sake of someone who was still very dangerous.

Now we have John Walker, and to an extent Karli Morgenthau. It's worth noting that Karli actually stopped for a minute after Lamar was killed, that she looked either shocked or remorseful and possibly both. Like Walker, she's also very new to the power she has, but IMO there's much more gray area where she's concerned. Killing Battlestar was terrible, but I don't think she meant to, and if it hadn't been for needing to run from a suddenly homicidal and enhanced Walker - Sam's "What did you do?!" reminded me of Monica's shock when Hayward fired that drone shot during WandaVision - she might have given up right there. If some crazy dude was  coming after me with full intention of beating me to death while I'm unarmed, I'd have fucked off too.
 

7 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I wonder how Zemo feels about Bucky. Zemo is happily shooting supersoldiers left and right, but he seems to have little intention to end Bucky for some reason.

Before the prison break, Zemo specifically told Bucky that what happened before was never personal, that he was a means to an end, which is echoed in this episode when Barnes tells Ayo that Zemo's freedom has a purpose. For good reason, Bucky doesn't like Zemo, but I don't think Zemo has any feelings about Barnes at all. If it hadn't been for who he is (was? whatever) to Steve, he'd have never homed in on him to begin with.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Cobalt Stargazer

[swanpride]

If Zemo doesn't have any feelings at all towards Bucky, the logical consequence of his philosophy would be to kill him.

[Dandesun]

16 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I wonder how Zemo feels about Bucky. Zemo is happily shooting supersoldiers left and right, but he seems to have little intention to end Bucky for some reason.

Well, he did apologize to Bucky for the whole Civil War thing. Also, I do wonder if Zemo knew that Bucky was just lying low. He had the serum but he wasn't out there trying to take over anything or destroy anything... he was hiding and just trying to buy some god-damn plums and piece his memory back together. Plus, I'm inclined to think that Bucky being free of the words means he can't be used as a weapon by others... not even himself. 

Still, it might make for a good final moment between them. Zemo may very well want to get rid of Bucky when all is said and done.

Walker taking the serum after he got his ass handed to him by the Dora Milaje just furthered Erskine's theories. Steve knew all too well what it was like to lose a fight. He lost them all the time. He still got up and he still kept fighting... and losing. Walker was too used to winning. That he was that upset about losing to non-super-powered warriors... (Guess he never went up against Black Widow, either.)

I also wonder if there's something about the creator of the serum as well. Erskine got the hell out of Dodge after Schmidt took the dose and became the Red Skull. And then Erskine... perfected it in the US? The guy who created this new batch was all 'I became a god!' and Erskine himself was never like that. Precious few people seemed to really understand the serum. And it's only those people that seemed to get what it could cause.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Dandesun

[cambridgeguy]

21 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, I don't think that he would have gotten involved in the fight at all if not for the Dora Milaje getting a little bit too stabby during it. I also loved that Sam and Bucky were both "yeah, well Dora Milaje, don't expect to be able to defeat them even with superpowers".

Which just goes to show if you like or agree with a group then almost everything is good.  Douche Walker talking about jurisdiction?  Screw that asshole.  The DM saying they do what they want wherever they want?  Hell Yes!  Pathetic Walker putting his hands on people?  God, what an asshole - stop touching people who disagree with you!  The DM absolutely kicking his ass for doing so?  Hit him harder, no need to deescalate when the guy's a dick!

[festivus]

I've wondered the same about Bucky and Zemo. Bucky didn't ask for the serum and what happened to him. I think his answer to the question would have the same as Sam's, a straight up no. It will be interesting to see what Zemo does. 

[steelyis]

49 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

 

 

 

The first tweet is dead on, but that second tweet, though... OMG!

[Dandesun]

14 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Now we have John Walker, and to an extent Karli Morgenthau. It's worth noting that Karli actually stopped for a minute after Lamar was killed, that she looked either shocked or remorseful and possibly both. Like Walker, she's also very new to the power she has, but IMO there's much more gray area where she's concerned. Killing Battlestar was terrible, but I don't think she meant to, and if it hadn't been for needing to run from a suddenly homicidal and enhanced Walker - Sam's "What did you do?!" reminded me of Monica's shock when Hayward fired that drone shot during WandaVision - she might have given up right there. If some crazy dude was  coming after me with full intention of beating me to death while I'm unarmed, I'd have fucked off too.

Yes, she looked shocked. It's one thing to lock a door and drive away as bombs go off or to call a woman and threaten her and her children from an ocean away... it's very different to murder someone up close and personal with your own limbs. It's very different to see what you have very specifically and personally done.

It's all well and good to talk about your idealogy in broad terms and paint those who oppose with the broad brush... but this was up close and personal. She killed a man who was trying to protect his friend.

And, see, she wanted to kill Captain America. She said as much... but again, they tied Lamar up and left him in a room and, presumably, they were going to blow that building up, too. Another distance killing. Instead, she kicked him across the room and killed him. And she saw it as it happened.

Yeah, that's very different.

AND she just watched the new Cap murder HER friend because of what SHE did. Now... will she double down? I'm thinking yes because just as it got very very personal for Walker it got personal for her too.

 

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, I don't think that he would have gotten involved in the fight at all if not for the Dora Milaje getting a little bit too stabby during it. I also loved that Sam and Bucky were both "yeah, well Dora Milaje, don't expect to be able to defeat them even with superpowers".

Bucky decided he didn't want to lend a hand. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Bucky decided he didn't want to lend a hand. 

That's not going away any time soon.

[moonorchid]

I was mildly spoiled for what John did and I was still left gaping watching it. 

I didn’t hate John walker (still not my captain America) but man he is such the anti Steve. He’s so agro about how he deals with people. Thinking he can walk up to Ayo, a warrior of the Dora Milaje, and pat her on the shoulder and say they can come to an aggrement like he’s settling a tab at a bar just shows how so unqualified he is at this. Being captain America is more than being a solider. To be fair to him I think he knows that, and he also knows he doesn’t have that in him hence why his go to us aggression. 

Sam is just everything Steve Rogers is and what he stood for and marvel is making it explicitly clear he IS Captain America. Whether he takes on the name and the shield or not. 

The writing can be a little choppy at times but I did appreciate the bits of humor, my favorite being Sam telling Bucky to lay off Zemo cause he’s gonna do his weird head tilt thing, and then zemo straightens his head, hahaha. 

I can’t believe we are headed to the finish line already, I’ve enjoyed this so much.

[arc]

Zemo’s stance about superhumans is understandable on some level, but on another level it makes no sense because it is fundamentally saying science and technology should not progress. Sure, Erskine’s serum augments people to beyond human performance. But so does the Iron Man armor, and to a much lesser extent, real-world technology like eyeglasses, binoculars, smartphones, etc. Levers and pulleys increase the lifting power of humans beyond their original limits.

I suppose one could focus on the current inequitable distribution of superpowers, making him sort of an inverse to the Incredible’s Syndrome: no one should be special. But then again…

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

I still think it's laughable that Zemo goes on about supremist when he's royalty.

… yeah.

The real root is that he is (quite justifiably) mad about what happened to Sokovia. Everything else is post-facto justification.

[paigow]

Bucky had a Lego Winter Soldier moment...

Wakanda is one place the Flag Smashers should avoid... One people, one world vs Wakanda forever is a non-starter

[Lebanna]

26 minutes ago, arc said:

Zemo’s stance about superhumans is understandable on some level, but on another level it makes no sense because it is fundamentally saying science and technology should not progress. Sure, Erskine’s serum augments people to beyond human performance. But so does the Iron Man armor, and to a much lesser extent, real-world technology like eyeglasses, binoculars, smartphones, etc. Levers and pulleys increase the lifting power of humans beyond their original limits.

It’s kind of fun that Zemo’s view of supersoldiers is exactly the same as the utopian Federation in Star Trek, after that whole thing with Khan.
 

I’ll do anything for progress, but I won’t do that, seems to be the general moto.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Lebanna

[paigow]

2 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

I’ll do anything for progress, but I won’t do that, seems to be the general moto.

When did this show become "Meatloaf & The Winter Soldier"???

[Lebanna]

2 minutes ago, paigow said:

When did this show become "Meatloaf & The Winter Soldier"???

Well, ya know, that was the alternate title. We should all be grateful that in the end, wisdom prevailed.

[Chicago Redshirt]

28 minutes ago, arc said:

Zemo’s stance about superhumans is understandable on some level, but on another level it makes no sense because it is fundamentally saying science and technology should not progress. Sure, Erskine’s serum augments people to beyond human performance. But so does the Iron Man armor, and to a much lesser extent, real-world technology like eyeglasses, binoculars, smartphones, etc. Levers and pulleys increase the lifting power of humans beyond their original limits.

I suppose one could focus on the current inequitable distribution of superpowers, making him sort of an inverse to the Incredible’s Syndrome: no one should be special. But then again…

… yeah.

The real root is that he is (quite justifiably) mad about what happened to Sokovia. Everything else is post-facto justification.

I think there is nothing about Zemo's philosophy that says that science and technology should not progress.

What it says is that if we allow science and technology to allow some people to set themselves up as special, it will inevitably lead to Hydra, Ultron, and other such problems.

There presumably would be a way to have scientific advances that do not concentrate power in the hands of an elite or that do not evoke these concerns. Most do not. There are not as many ways for the fact that smart phones exist and some people have them and others do not to lead to catastrophe as there are that Tony Stark can build as many suits of armor as he wants and give them to whoever he wants to use them how he wants (or a given set of people post-Sokovia accords want)

[Cobalt Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, arc said:

Zemo’s stance about superhumans is understandable on some level, but on another level it makes no sense because it is fundamentally saying science and technology should not progress. Sure, Erskine’s serum augments people to beyond human performance. But so does the Iron Man armor, and to a much lesser extent, real-world technology like eyeglasses, binoculars, smartphones, etc. Levers and pulleys increase the lifting power of humans beyond their original limits.

Alternately, there's a vast difference between a .22 pistol and an automatic rifle. The technology of firearms has also advanced far beyond what was originally created, and not always to the betterment of things. It all depends on the person behind the weapon. Bucky and Wanda in particular have terrible histories of misusing their powers, and it doesn't really matter if Barnes had free will when you remember how many people are dead because of the Winter Soldier. Calling it victim blaming implies that he's the only one who matters, and while he is a victim, so was Mr. Yori's son. Innocence can't be measured out, and neither can blame. Zemo's aversion to the idea is so total that he never even considers picking up one of those vials, and he probably would have killed Karli if John  hadn't knocked him unconscious. As Bucky said, he's crazy but he does have a code. I don't think he's against progress, I think he's against fiddling around with things no one really understands and can't always control.

[Lebanna]

22 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

It all depends on the person behind the weapon. Bucky and Wanda in particular have terrible histories of misusing their powers, and it doesn't really matter if Barnes had free will when you remember how many people are dead because of the Winter Soldier. Calling it victim blaming implies that he's the only one who matters, and while he is a victim, so was Mr. Yori's son. Innocence can't be measured out, and neither can blame.

Well, Wanda, much as we might love her, had choices. She could have walked away from her lost love and home. She chose not to when she poured out her grief and ate a whole town. 
 

According to this universe  (although not current mainstream psychological understanding), brainwashing is a real thing that can turn people into unconditional obedient slaves. And then there is the electroshock treatment that they were using to wipe Bucky’s memory of the horrors they had accomplished through him. In this version, Bucky wasn’t using his powers at all until Steve woke him up. He was more or less just a service droid.
 

Watching a documentary about cults recently (Seduced) a councilor basically explained it like this - if you are pushed by a stranger into someone else and you knock them down and hurt them, you may feel responsible for the damage that your body hitting them has caused, but you are not guilty of the act. The person who pushed you is the guilty party, and all you can do now is try to help the person on the floor.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Lebanna

[MochaJay]

2 hours ago, festivus said:

I've wondered the same about Bucky and Zemo. Bucky didn't ask for the serum and what happened to him. I think his answer to the question would have the same as Sam's, a straight up no. It will be interesting to see what Zemo does. 

I wish somebody had asked Bucky whether he would have taken the serum, if he had a choice.

I think his answer would be complicated, given how much the world has changed in his long life, and how much he is currently clinging to Steve's legacy as his own guiding light.

When Bucky was a young soldier who trusted his government in a just war, he might well have taken the serum if asked. But he's not taking orders anymore, and he doesn't even trust himself.

I, as a viewer, think of Bucky as a case where the serum was a success and that that his damage is from Hydra and the brainwashing. But does Bucky himself think he's an example of the serum corrupting?

 

 

 

 

[RedElf]

Dammit, show, making me cry in the first five minutes.  Sebastian nailed it in that flashback.

Bucky, Bucky, Bucky.  Why did you let Walker past you?

What gives Captain America jurisdiction in Latvia?

I'm loving watching Walker getting his ass kicked.

Walker seems awfully willing to give up possession of the shield.

Well.  That went dark.

 

[Emma]

So much was going on but I would like to have seen what happened with Sharon between the call with Sam/asking for her help and when she was at home tracking Walker.

She was fine when on the phone but at home she had a bloodied lip and knuckles. Might have been nothing but a detail I was curious about.

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

According to this universe  (although not current mainstream psychological understanding), brainwashing is a real thing that can turn people into unconditional obedient slaves. And then there is the electroshock treatment that they were using to wipe Bucky’s memory of the horrors they had accomplished through him. In this version, Bucky wasn’t using his powers at all until Steve woke him up. He was basically a service droid. Watching a documentary about cults recently (Seduced) a councilor basically explained it like this - if you are pushed by a stranger into someone else and you knock them down and hurt them, you may feel responsible for the damage done, but you are not guilty of the act. The person who pushed you is the guilty party, and all you can do now is try to help the person on the floor.

Except the mind control was never total. It couldn't have been, since during <i>Winter Soldier</i> there was a point when Bucky was more "himself" and not a service droid. "That man on the bridge. I knew him." Hell, Pierce ordered Barnes to be wiped <i>because</i> he emerged from the brainwashing enough to remember some of who Steve was. Bucky, as much as we're sympathetic to him, spent years killing people, and I don't know why anyone thinks it would be a good look if he decided that didn't matter. Because that seriously seems like the only alternative, to shrug it off. If nothing else, it's hard to help someone who's dead. If all that's left are the families, what then?

[RedElf]

12 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Poor Lemar. That crashing, snapping sound as he hit the pillar was horrible. He was so much more reasonable than Walker, it’s not surprising that Walker broke as soon as he was gone. Lemar was probably a big piece of what was holding Walker back from total meltdown.

I wish we knew who that woman that was talking to Walker in the first episode.  Wife? Girlfriend? I hope she comes back now and talks to him about how he's gone batshit crazy.

 

11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Karli is becoming a monster and doesn’t want to admit it.

Just like Walker.

[Lebanna]

26 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except the mind control was never total. It couldn't have been, since during <i>Winter Soldier</i> there was a point when Bucky was more "himself" and not a service droid. "That man on the bridge. I knew him." Hell, Pierce ordered Barnes to be wiped <i>because</i> he emerged from the brainwashing enough to remember some of who Steve was. Bucky, as much as we're sympathetic to him, spent years killing people, and I don't know why anyone thinks it would be a good look if he decided that didn't matter. Because that seriously seems like the only alternative, to shrug it off. If nothing else, it's hard to help someone who's dead. If all that's left are the families, what then?

I think the general idea is that yes, you are responsible for fixing whatever you can in these situations. That’s your job because you are able and because you understand what was done, while they may not. It’s just that it was never your choice, not that you should therefore have the right to walk away. In fact, absolutely not, since you’ve both been victimized by the same person. When you are out of the control of the guilty party and psychologically or physically able to help, your responsibility remains with the next injured party. However, they really haven’t explained that philosophy as clearly in this show. Recommend the documentary, anyway. It was interesting.
 

Pretty sure that the magic of Steve waking Bucky up was supposed to be related to how they were brothers from another mother. Love, as the stories say, has the power to wake the deepest sleeper.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Lebanna