S01.E04: The Whole World Is Watching

[Gin and Tonic]

4 hours ago, xaxat said:

 

 

The first line from the embedded video is: “Bucky doesn’t think of that arm as a piece of Wakandan technology that was given to him so that he could be helpful in an upcoming fight for global survival.”

If this is the writers’ perspective I don’t think they’ve done anything in this episode or any other to textually support this interpretation. When T’Challa brought him the arm, he took one look at it and said “Where’s the fight?” And he looked sad as hell about it. He’s still having nightmares and flashbacks about what he did as the Winter Soldier and the arm is a huge part of the body horror/torture that we went through. He uses the arm. It’s useful in a fight. But it’s only been six months for him. There’s no way he’s forgotten about how he got that arm or what it represented. 

Likewise, the references to colonialism are accurate regarding the shield - similar points were made in Black Panther and Age of Ultron. But his arm? Was given to him in Wakanda by the king of Wakanda where he was an invited guest. There’s also something really weird about presenting the arm as some resource advantage. His arm and shoulder were chopped off after he was captured in a war zone. And unlike many other American conflicts, it wasn’t even one that was primarily about American colonial expansion.  

Ayo implied that Bucky owes Wakanda for removing his conditioning like rotten fur, and it’s reflected in some commentary about the episode. But there’s something really weird about making the help a victimized person received transactional. I get why Ayo came for Zemo and confronted Bucky and I understand her feelings of betrayal. I even get why she went for the kill switch in the arm. But the idea that Bucky owes them anything but his gratitude doesn’t sit right with me.

It also ignores that the only reason Bucky was in Wakanda in the first place is because T’Challa was straight up trying to murder him. Like, complete first degree murder of an innocent man. As Bucky said, he’s grateful for what Ayo and Shuri did for him, but Wakanda owed some amends to Bucky too.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Gin and Tonic

[bethy]

Yeah. To say something like “Bucky had the gall to look betrayed” when Ayo disabled his arm is ridiculous. He should feel betrayed. It was his arm, given to him by Wakanda, and, as far as we know, without T’Challa or Suri saying, “You can have this arm until we change our minds and want it back. Enjoy!” I mean, imagine any country or institution including a hidden way to disable and detach a person’s prosthetic. Yikes. 

 

[Starry-Eyed]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Taking away a disabled person's gifted prosthetic limb is very different from taking away a shield or an iron man suit or the like. It would be like Tony turning off the device that allows Rhodes to walk if he was refusing to go along with some plan Tony had.

That is an absolutely fantastic comparison, and you are right on the money.

1 hour ago, Abra said:

Maybe I'm being naive, but I took Bucky's arm being removable not as a fail safe, but more as expedience - it's probably a lot more convenient to remove the arm if it needed some kind of extended maintenance or to be fixed after extreme damage than to have Bucky just sitting there attached when people just want to do their work. And I can see him not being told about its removability given all that happened in the short time (to him) that he's had it. Now, Ayo disarming (sorry, couldn't help it) him in the middle of the fight did seem like a "fuck you" moment.

If it was about arm maintenance, Bucky would have known about it. Or if the situation had come up where Bucky had gone rogue, been re-Winter Soldierized etc., and Shuri had to go look up the schematics or something, I could believe that it had a benign purpose or was possibly just a inevitable design  feature of an arm that can also be snapped on. But Ayo- who wouldn't be doing maintenance - knew, knew so well that she could immediately perform the action on Bucky without knowing in advance she would want to. That can't be anything other than a failsafe.

Understandable if the purpose was just in case they didn't get all the programming somehow and he was reactivated. A huge betrayal to use it again him in a petty skirmish with no discernible purpose other than pride.

[swanpride]

Count me in as not thinking that Bucky owes Wakanda anything. At best they are even...they wanted to take his life and in the end, they gave it back. In addition, it is not like Bucky asked for the arm, it was given to him because the world needed his help.

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, Gin and Tonic said:

It also ignores that the only reason Bucky was in Wakanda in the first place is because T’Challa was straight up trying to murder him. Like, complete first degree murder of an innocent man.

Taking response to Marvel Saga thread.

[paigow]

13 hours ago, bethy said:

I mean, imagine any country or institution including a hidden way to disable and detach a person’s prosthetic. Yikes. 

A country that built a giant cloaking device around its borders would never do that...

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, RollTheHardSix said:

Agreed, the ending didn't bother me much either. I can see how somebody wouldn't like it because he was ignoring the dangers in messing with time, but other than that... fine by me.

And even the messing with time stuff... it's his life at the end of the day and why shouldn't he be selfish for once? He wasn't afraid of taking risks in the past either except this time it was purely for his own benefit.

They're all adults (Sam, Bucky etc) and they need to live their own lives and find their own path.

A little selfishness is very healthy in my opinion.

I imagine, if asked, both Sam and Bucky would have exhorted Steve to be selfish, for once. Telling him that he'd done more than enough and it was time for him to be happy, screw what anyone else thinks.

And I'm still pretty sure that he did ask Bucky. That scene in Endgame telegraphs quite clearly that Bucky knew Steve wasn't coming back, at least, not as the same man.

I get Sam putting Steve on a pedestal because he met the mighty Captain America and it turns out he's everything he was reputed to be. With Bucky it's different, because he and Steve were kids together and he saw every bit of stupid bravery and moral fibre that Steve has. Him being Captain America was academic. I imagine Bucky once saw himself as being similarly upright and decent, but his actions since the Second World War might have disabused him of that idea. But even as he did awful things and completely lost his sense of self, he can still look to Steve as a moral compass.

If this show can convince him that he can trust in his own moral compass again, he'll be well on his way to recovery. He's starting to make decisions for himself again, and they're not all paying off successfully - freeing Zemo is going to be something he regrets, and listening to Walker when he was insisting Sam needs backup too. But it's all a process, and you can see his confidence growing and some of what looks like a more natural swagger emerging.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Danny Franks

[swanpride]

I actually think that Bucky always considered Steve his better angle, the one who inspired him to do good, the ideal to strive after. Hence he always made a point of following Steve, not Cap. But considering how okay Bucky was with the notion that Steve would suddenly be in the spotlight, I think he always saw himself lesser than Steve, and could hence be honestly happy about Steve getting the spotlight he always deserved in Bucky's mind.

[LJones41]

18 hours ago, bethy said:

Yeah. To say something like “Bucky had the gall to look betrayed” when Ayo disabled his arm is ridiculous. He should feel betrayed. It was his arm, given to him by Wakanda, and, as far as we know, without T’Challa or Suri saying, “You can have this arm until we change our minds and want it back. Enjoy!” I mean, imagine any country or institution including a hidden way to disable and detach a person’s prosthetic. Yikes. 

 

 

The Dora Mijae should have Bucky arrested for helping Zemo escape prison.  He should feel betrayed?  He is the one responsible for allowing Zemo, the man who had murdered their king, out of prison.  Screw him.

I'm tired of being told that I have to think of Bucky's well being; when his stupidity and aggressive behavior has made it obvious that he rarely cares about the well being of others.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by LJones41

[bethy]

33 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

 

The Dora Mijae should have Bucky arrested for helping Zemo escape prison.  He should feel betrayed?  He is the one responsible for allowing Zemo, the man who had murdered their king, out of prison.  Screw him.

I'm tired of being told that I have to think of Bucky's well being; when his stupidity and aggressive behavior has made it obvious that he rarely cares about the well being of others.

 

I would have no problem with the Dora Mijae arresting Bucky. I would have had no problem if the Dora had beat up everyone involved and taken Zemo by force. (Well, I would have been sad Sam and Bucky got beat up, but them’s the breaks when you break a bad guy out of prison.)
 

I do, though, have a huge problem with anyone disabling another person’s prosthetic limb (or eye or hearing aid or pace-maker) using a secret gizmo the person is unaware of because they’re in a fight. That’s crappy, and the person who does it loses any moral high ground or sympathy they might otherwise have had with me. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by bethy

[festivus]

Yeah, I've seen that gif set around with the look on Bucky's face, and I'm feeling bad man. I thought, this man lost his arm and it was replaced by a killing machine without his consent. Got that one blown off (twice) and now has one that he didn't know could be detached. When he was goat farming he had to learn how to do everything again and then gets a new arm so he can fight a war. He betrayed Ayo and she betrayed him. The more I think about the layers in that scene the more fucked up it gets.

Dammit, Marvel, I just wanted to be amused by a rabbit that steals eyes and smuggles them up his bum and gives them to Asgardian gods.

[paigow]

Bucky got the non-lethal rules of engagement from Ayo. If that is demeaning, so be it. Her team seemed willing to kill everyone in the room.

[RedElf]

20 minutes ago, paigow said:

Bucky got the non-lethal rules of engagement from Ayo. If that is demeaning, so be it. Her team seemed willing to kill everyone in the room.

If they wanted to kill anybody, they would have done it.

 

[Perfect Xero]

I don't know what to think about what Ayo and her team were doing.

First they enter the scene by throwing a spear near Walker's head to stop him from fighting Sam because Walker wants Zemo back in prison. He does not pick up his shield and tries to talk to them, Sam starts acting like simply asking them whats going on is picking a fight. They claim to have jurisdiction where ever they are, which is some real dodgy shit to have anyone claiming who isn't meant to be a villain. Walker again tries to talk and touches Ayo's shoulder in what is clearly meant to be a friendly manner. Yes it's something he should not have done, but was not enough to merit a response with lethal weapons, which is what they did. They stab at Walker center mass while he is on the ground and he blocks it with the shield. They pull back to make one more stabs at each of Walker and Hoskins who are both down on the ground which Bucky and Sam stop, leading to them attacking Bucky and Sam.

If they weren't going for kills then I honestly don't know what they were doing, stabbing at unarmed men who were on the ground with the business end of a spear is a kill shot, not a disabling one. Honestly I don't see how it's any different from what Walker did at the end of the episode except that Walker was attacking a superhuman who had literally been trying to murder him minutes earlier, and someone stepped in and stopped them from striking a killing blow.

Watching how they attack it's hard to see the scene as anything other than them trying to kill Walker and Hoskins until Bucky and Sam got involved, at which point they switched to nonlethal methods because they likely didn't want to kill either of them.

Further they came into the scene and attacked the two men who actually AGREE with them that Zemo needs to be locked up and are also angry at Bucky for breaking him out. While they were engaging in this fight they started with two men who were no threat to them and agreed with them on the basic premise that Zemo is a bad guy and should not be free, Zemo escaped.

The only way they don't come out of this looking both, quite frankly, insane AND incompetent is if they whole thing was a bluff on their part to get Zemo to run because they had mapped out his escape route and had people waiting to capture him, which is the only reason I can come up with for how they came in seemingly looking for even the smallest excuse to attack and then kept escalating their attacks until Sam and Bucky stepped in, which gave Zemo the chance to run.

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I don't know what to think about what Ayo and her team were doing

I'm sticking with Ayo going off script and bent on revenge since T'Chaka was killed on her watch. I really do think they're setting up a one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist with all the characters, except Sam and, maybe Bucky.

 

[festivus]

https://tenor.com/bAK65.gif 

Sorry, can't get this to embed, but that looks like horror to me more than betrayal. Like, my body still doesn't belong to me.

[MochaJay]

4 hours ago, LJones41 said:

 

The Dora Mijae should have Bucky arrested for helping Zemo escape prison.  He should feel betrayed?  He is the one responsible for allowing Zemo, the man who had murdered their king, out of prison.  Screw him.

I'm tired of being told that I have to think of Bucky's well being; when his stupidity and aggressive behavior has made it obvious that he rarely cares about the well being of others.

 

I get that Wakanda are angry with Bucky for helping Zemo escape (though I don't get why Ayo was more angry with Bucky at the end of the eight hours than when they had the initial meeting). Wakanda has a legitimate claim against Zemo for T'chaka's death, and Bucky wronged them.

 

But beyond that perspective, the story has more nuance because Bucky is not an uninvolved 3rd party. Bucky also has a separate claim of grievance against Zemo, for using the trigger words. We know Zemo's name was in his notebook list. The opening of this episode emphasised the depth of that injury against Bucky, and with Hydra gone Zemo may be the only living person who used those words against him.

So Bucky's choice to let Zemo escape prison, in addition to being a betrayal of Wakanda, was also a selfless decision that tracking the source of the serum was more important than his own claim to vengeance.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by MochaJay

[kiddo82]

I know it's a TV show and a fake, vibranium prosthetic arm to boot so the rules can be hand waived away, but it's nasty that Bucky hadn't taken the arm off prior to that.  Real prosthetics, specifically the liners and skin that go into them, need to be maintained and cleaned daily.  Imagine and the sweat and bacteria growing under there.  It's like never taking your shoes off to properly clean and dry your feet.

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by kiddo82

[swanpride]

Who says that he didn't? There is a difference between taking your arm off yourself and someone else doing it with a quick gesture….

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 4/11/2021 at 3:35 PM, RollTheHardSix said:

Though, I was also thinking that they were really setting him up for failure. I mean why would you just send two guys without any superpowers out to fight on their own?

What are they gonna do against anybody? Why not send a whole team?

What is the shield gonna do for them - it's not that awesome on its own... At least Sam has awesome tech gear and experience as an Avenger.

It could be that the powers behind Cosplay Cap truly envisioned him only/primarily envisioned him doing propaganda stuff. Or that they didn't think things through.

But the shield is actually pretty awesome on its own, and Cosplay Cap seemed to be using it just fine before he powered up.

On 4/11/2021 at 4:23 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

One interesting thing about Sam in this episode is that until the big fight at the end he hardly wears his falcon suit at all. Even when going to talk to Karli or trying to find her. By comparison Walker wears his CM suit all the time. It kind of shows even more how Walker is always ready to fight, but Sam didn't really expect most of his actions this episode to turn into one.

Also interesting that Walker is totally focused on Super Soldiers specifically not enhanced people in general when he got beat by the Dora. Like just off the top of my head, Thor, Wanda, Natasha, Iron Man and Spiderman could all totally kick his ass and none of them are super soldiers.

Almost all of those people could totally kick his ass now that he's powered, with the probable exception of Natasha (who I think would not necessarily have beaten him when he was ordinary -- there it's more that it was a plausible thing that either side could win). In any reasonable  And Civil War not withstanding, all those people except Natasha would have beaten Steve in a reasonable fight. 

On 4/11/2021 at 6:55 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

Anyone else wonder if Ayo went rogue? T'Challa wanted Zemo alive, to make sure he suffered (since Zemo wanted death). T'Challa turned Zemo over to Berlin/UN/US rather than take him back to Wakanda. Ayo seems to be acting out her own revenge/justice now that she has the opportunity. Especially with her comment about having jurisdiction wherever they want.

I just wonder if there's more to the Dora Milaje then just showing up to be bad ass. This story has a lot about what makes a hero, a good person, a freedom fighter, a terrorist, etc. 

There's no reason to think Ayo went rogue, that they were trying to kill Zemo or that they were necessarily going to take Zemo back to Wakanda rather than to the German prison where he escaped from.

On 4/12/2021 at 7:11 AM, Perfect Xero said:

I thought that Karli's reaction to killing Lemar was less being upset over killing someone (during her plot to, you know, murder a man with knife wielding super soldiers), and more a realization that shit had just got real and Walker was about to stop trying to arrest them and start trying to kill them.

That is an interesting read, but they needed to do more to establish it if they were going for that. That Karli didn't press the attack if she was like "Oh shit, now they are totally going to kill me if they can" and that she was in the crowd to see her comrade killed doesn't really square in my mind with that explanation. 

On 4/12/2021 at 7:11 PM, Perfect Xero said:

Bucky's arm was given to him freely by the King of Wakanda, no conditions were attached to him having the arm in the scene we saw (and, in fact, they had to somewhat coerce him into taking the arm at all). It's his ARM and part of his bodily autonomy the second they attached it to him.

Taking away a disabled person's gifted prosthetic limb is very different from taking away a shield or an iron man suit or the like. It would be like Tony turning off the device that allows Rhodes to walk if he was refusing to go along with some plan Tony had.

As to the shield, given that this is apparently from an entirely different timeline, has markings that indicated it's not the original, and we don't even know what it's made of, no one on the MCU Earth other than Steve, Sam, and then the US Government/Smithsonian has any sort of claim on it or right to it.

Even if it was the original, Klaue's backstory suggests that no one else has ever stolen Vibranium and made it out alive, so even assuming that it was "stolen" is quite a stretch.

You are assuming that T'Challa and Wakanda gave a vibranium arm that is worth conservatively $100 million (in addition to lodging, hospitality and deprogramming) "freely"? That no one told Bucky "This document acknowledges our right to shut this arm down and repo it whenever we want, OK? Sign here" doesn't make it any less fair for them to do so. It was a gift but one that had hidden conditions. Would Bucky have accepted it if he knew? Probably. Is it shitty that the Wakandans didn't tell him? Sure. But they are totally justified in having contingency plans.

I would say Tony 100 percent has contingencies to shut down the War Machine armor. The reasons he might not have a contingency to specifically disable his ability to walk is a) he doesn't need to because the mere ability to walk doesn't make Rhodey a threat b) Rhodey is a personal friend who he wouldn't want to humiliate and c) there's a limit to how ruthless Tony is. None of these apply to Ayo and Bucky. 

It is not established exactly how the U.S. got the vibranium for Cap's shield. But it could have been from fair trade with Wakanda, it could have been from other sources (as far as I know, Wakanda just has the overwhelming majority of the world's vibranium, but some exists outside it), or it could be more that Klaue was the first to pull off a heist of the size he did (a quarter ton I want to say?) but there were smaller heists before then including the amount of the shield.

On 4/12/2021 at 7:19 PM, hoopznyo said:

Question: In this episode we learn that Bucky is free from his programming, but does anyone else (aside from him and the Wakandans) know? In episode 1, during the therapy session Dr. Raynor says that due to his history the government needs to know he is gonna.... 

Presumably at this point in the timeline, it would be known to the government. Steve would have debriefed after Infinity War that Bucky had been deprogrammed. It might not be known, or believed, in the wider community which makes Zemo's bluff plausible.

On 4/12/2021 at 8:30 PM, bethy said:

Yeah. To say something like “Bucky had the gall to look betrayed” when Ayo disabled his arm is ridiculous. He should feel betrayed. It was his arm, given to him by Wakanda, and, as far as we know, without T’Challa or Suri saying, “You can have this arm until we change our minds and want it back. Enjoy!” I mean, imagine any country or institution including a hidden way to disable and detach a person’s prosthetic. Yikes. 

 

Again, if they gave it to him, it was a lethal weapon like Bucky's prosthetic, and the government were secretive and ruthless, it would almost be out of character for there not to be a contingency plan to deal with it.

On 4/13/2021 at 12:40 AM, swanpride said:

Count me in as not thinking that Bucky owes Wakanda anything. At best they are even...they wanted to take his life and in the end, they gave it back. In addition, it is not like Bucky asked for the arm, it was given to him because the world needed his help.

Trying to kill him when there was a reasonably good frame that he was a king-murdering terrorist does not seem to be incurring that high a debt load. Germany and the U.S. were also trying to potentially kill him and probably would have if Steve had not intervened. 

11 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

I know it's a TV show and a fake, vibranium prosthetic arm to boot so the rules can be hand waived away, but it's nasty that Bucky hadn't taken the arm off prior to that.  Real prosthetics, specifically the liners and skin that go into them, need to be maintained and cleaned daily.  Imagine and the sweat and bacteria growing under there.  It's like never taking your shoes off to properly clean and dry your feet.

 

It's possible that given Wakandan science is magic that the prosthetic is self-cleaning.

But given that Bucky reattaches the arm fairly effortlessly, it seems to me implied that he's done that part of things before. It's more that he didn't realize that someone else could de-power and detach it. 

[Kel Varnsen]

Watched it again with the kids this morning. Ayo talking about how T'chaka's death was her own personal shame was a good scene. It also made me think that if T'chaka had not been killed then there wouldn't have been any opportunity for Killmonger to make a claim for the throne and no Wakanda civil war.

Also thinking about that first spear thrown, if that Dora wanted it to be in Walker's head it would have been in his head.

As for Walker it is interesting that he is supposed to be the version of Captain America that really is an extension of what the military wants. But at the same time I imagine it is against military regulation to take vials of mysterious drugs that you find on a floor, at least without proper authorization.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[Bruinsfan]

Wakandan society determines the suitability of its leadership through trial by combat and is weirdly focused on both secrecy and honor/saving face. Which I guess makes sense when you consider the civilization was founded by a million-year-old cat god.

21 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

I know it's a TV show and a fake, vibranium prosthetic arm to boot so the rules can be hand waived away, but it's nasty that Bucky hadn't taken the arm off prior to that.  Real prosthetics, specifically the liners and skin that go into them, need to be maintained and cleaned daily.  Imagine and the sweat and bacteria growing under there.  It's like never taking your shoes off to properly clean and dry your feet.

Based on the fact that Bucky is able to use the thing seamlessly as if it were his own limb and conduct superhuman force through it, I think it's more a detachable cybernetic limb than a prosthetic, and probably has a mount to attach it to his shoulder joint. It may not need any more cleaning than someone's replacement hip does.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Bruinsfan

[formerlyfreedom]

Posts have been removed because they had nothing to do with the episode or quoted such posts.

Please take further extended discussion of CA: TWS, Black Panther, and governance of Wakanda to The Marvel Saga. Posts in here should be primarily about the episode. If you would like to respond to something within a post and talk about one of the movies, again, The Marvel Saga is the appropriate topic. Thank you.

[Captain Carrot]

I've been thinking of the Sorkovia Accords and the fact that we never did see if Steve or Tony were right. (Civil War was more about whether they should sign before switching to saving Bucky). Now a 'hero' that is probably reporting to the people the Avengers would have reported to post accords killed a man that should have been arrested. Will Walker be penalized or will the powers that be try to spin the story to protect their guy?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 4/12/2021 at 8:11 PM, Perfect Xero said:

Taking away a disabled person's gifted prosthetic limb is very different from taking away a shield or an iron man suit or the like. It would be like Tony turning off the device that allows Rhodes to walk if he was refusing to go along with some plan Tony had.

I would argue that Ayo felt personally betrayed by Bucky's decision to free Zemo from prison, which is vastly different than Rhodey not agreeing to some plan Tony cooked up. Her king was murdered, and the Dora Milaje are sworn to always protect and honor the ruler of Wakanda. The entire reason Okoye refused to go with Shuri and Ramonda when they left the palace during Black Panther is because her duty was to remain behind and back the new king, usurper though he was, and despite her grief due to thinking T'Challa was dead. Ayo's sense of honor is why she gave Barnes the time she did give him, and she was being perfectly reasonable until John decided to interfere while the adults were talking. Even if the arm was given to Bucky with no conditions attached, she was already annoyed and maybe feeling like he went behind her back. "How could you free him?!"

[Kel Varnsen]

So did Walker take the serum before or after he had coffee at the cafe with Lamar? The talk they have about the serum is interesting if Walker had already taken it.

[Abra]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So did Walker take the serum before or after he had coffee at the cafe with Lamar? The talk they have about the serum is interesting if Walker had already taken it.

 I got the sense he took it after. If he had the same side effects (fire in the veins) that Karli said she had, I think it would have shown physically to other and us, even if that part of the transformation had passed. And I noticed it seemed to be dark outside when they were in the cafe, so he probably took it when they got back to wherever they were staying and had overnight to deal.

[Perfect Xero]

19 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I would argue that Ayo felt personally betrayed by Bucky's decision to free Zemo from prison, which is vastly different than Rhodey not agreeing to some plan Tony cooked up. Her king was murdered, and the Dora Milaje are sworn to always protect and honor the ruler of Wakanda. The entire reason Okoye refused to go with Shuri and Ramonda when they left the palace during Black Panther is because her duty was to remain behind and back the new king, usurper though he was, and despite her grief due to thinking T'Challa was dead. Ayo's sense of honor is why she gave Barnes the time she did give him, and she was being perfectly reasonable until John decided to interfere while the adults were talking. Even if the arm was given to Bucky with no conditions attached, she was already annoyed and maybe feeling like he went behind her back. "How could you free him?!"

I agree that she is feeling annoyed with Bucky for helping Zemo escape (and rightly so IMO), but, again detaching someone's arm is just different from taking away a shield. In the case of Bucky it's also someone else once again using a secret code to take control his body away from him. I also agree that she's driven by her system of honor over the death of her king.

I don't agree that she was "perfectly reasonable". First they came on the scene throwing a spear at Walker's head and she delivered an ultimatum to hand over Zemo.

If the US secret service showed up in another country and demanded the extradition of a criminal to US custody outside of official/legal channels, claimed they had jurisdiction anywhere in the world, and glared daggers at foreign soldiers who were in the process of trying to return that criminal to prison when they tried to get them to lower their guns and talk, before starting shooting because one of them touched their shoulder while trying to get them to talk, I don't thing anyone would find them to be the reasonable party.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

28 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I don't agree that she was "perfectly reasonable". First they came on the scene throwing a spear at Walker's head and she delivered an ultimatum to hand over Zemo.

If the US secret service showed up in another country and demanded the extradition of a criminal to US custody outside of official/legal channels, claimed they had jurisdiction anywhere in the world, and glared daggers at foreign soldiers who were in the process of trying to return that criminal to prison when they tried to get them to lower their guns and talk, before starting shooting because one of them touched their shoulder while trying to get them to talk, I don't thing anyone would find them to be the reasonable party.

I don't know how the jurisdiction stuff works in the real world, but wouldn't Wakanda have more of a claim on Zemo due to him killing their last king? When John was smarming at Ayo about how the Dora Milaje didn't have any right to try taking him into custody, I was wondering if he even knew what Zemo was in prison for, or if he was thinking the guy was just another criminal that he could easily handle.  I would have to rewatch, because I don't remember if he knew the whole of the situation.

He certainly didn't know who the Dora are, which seems weird in itself. I could understand him not knowing of Ayo specifically, but given Wakanda's new prominence on the world stage, John should have done his homework. Some research, *something.* I suppose she over-reacted to being touched, but it was like John interrutping Sam while he was trying to talk to Karli, making things worse instead of better. If he had tried actual diplomacy instead of being condescending ("I am Captain America, and therefore only I have jurisdiction."*) she might not have gotten even more annoyed.

As for Bucky, his choice was to pick *that* moment to intervene, if not on John's behalf then  to reason with Ayo, when Walker wasn't even being hurt, just embarrassed. So A) he didn't inform her that he was planning to help the guy who killed her king escape from prison and B) she gave him some time to do what he said he was going to do. Again, I would have understood it if she was really pummeling John, beating the crap out of him, but that's not what was happening.

*Even if that's not precisely what John said, it's what he meant.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

First they came on the scene throwing a spear at Walker's head and she delivered an ultimatum to hand over Zemo.

I read it as the spear was between Walker and Sam to break up their impending fight.  Like I said if the spear meant to be in Walker's head, it would be in his head.

[Ailianna]

11 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So did Walker take the serum before or after he had coffee at the cafe with Lamar? The talk they have about the serum is interesting if Walker had already taken it.

I think he had already taken it. There's really no obvious break in action either before or after, and we don't know how long the "fire in the veins" lasts, but something in his body language and how he didn't quite meet Lamar's eyes made me think he'd already done it and was looking for validation. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I read it as the spear was between Walker and Sam to break up their impending fight.  Like I said if the spear meant to be in Walker's head, it would be in his head.

That’s what I thought also. One of the Dora was able to throw a spear through the strap on the shield pining it to a table without hitting Walker. With that kind of accuracy, I think it’s safe to say they hit exactly what they were aiming for each time. 

[wmdekooning]

On 4/13/2021 at 5:40 PM, paigow said:

Bucky got the non-lethal rules of engagement from Ayo. If that is demeaning, so be it. Her team seemed willing to kill everyone in the room.

Nomble (Probably pronounced “Nom-blay”), played by Janeshia Adams-Ginyard and Yama played by Zola Williams...

[angora]

Sam trying to talk Karli down was a great reminder of how genuinely good he is. I've loved the way he uses the wings in the fight scenes in all the movies he's been in, but it's been a while since they've really showcased these qualities of his. The way he tries to reach out to/reason with her is exactly why I liked Sam in CA:TWS as soon as he started relating to Steve as a veteran struggling to adjust instead of as a superhero. And it's exactly why he was the right choice to carry on Steve's legacy.

I wanted to scream when Bucky was blocking Walker from busting in on Sam and Karli and Walker sneered, "This is really easy for you, isn't it? All that serum running through your veins." I realize how much further Walker went off the rails by the end of the episode, but that line made me see red. How far up your own ass do you have to be to look at Bucky Barnes and think, "That dude has it so easy"? Shut up, Walker.

Don't mess with the Dora Milaje! I loved that moment when one of them snatched up the shield but then, at a nod from Ayo, dropped it again, all, "What're you gonna do with it anyway, Walker?" (In retrospect, though, it would've been better for everyone if they'd taken it, yikes.)

In other fight news, there was some great action in that scene against the Flag Smashers. I liked how strategically Sam used the wings to his advantage as one of the only non-super-soldiers in the fight. And while, as a character, I'm very glad Bucky is working to get his life back, the Winter Soldier is behind most of my favorite fights in the MCU and it isn't often that we see non-WS Bucky fight in that style (albeit non-lethally, of course.) That bit where he caught that guy's knife and then flipped him? So much yes!