S25.E12: After the Final Rose

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, EllenB said:

I don't think it's the kind of thing you can just get over. I wouldn't be able to be with someone who was, if not explicitly racist, at least a lot too comfortable with racists and racism, and I'm white. It would be devastating for a person of color.

I'd say that there's a spectrum of how different people of color might react to different forms of racism. 

What little I know about what Rachael did ranks to me as easily forgivable and not something to say "I can't stand with her until she does the work" because IMO there's not that much "work" to do. It was ignorant, but she is 24 and was a mere 21 when the photo was taken. By definition, she was willing to envision a life with a Black man on some level, even if she didn't fully appreciate what that means in Matt's case. She presumably is willing to change. 

With the exception of the public nature of the controversy, I would guess that most interracial relationships have experienced and even survived far more problematic forms of racism from the members. 

[Bluesky]

10 hours ago, lgprimes said:

I disagree @saber5055. I think it is refreshing that an honest, real and important conversation is being had on this show. Many white Americans don’t have much contact with people of color. This is an opportunity for us to learn.  Dialogue is important.

I have a hard time believing that.  Unless you live in a very rural state like Vermont or Wyoming or the Midwest with more corn than people.  Southern states have large populations of Latinos and Black people.  Northeast cities have immigrants from every country out there.  The west coast is also made up of “people of color”. 

Racheal may or may not have had negative views of Black people.  She might have been as stupid as she claims.  But the majority of the people at those parties knew exactly what they were doing and what it meant.  And those are the type of people she chose as friends.  

[Mswldflwr]

9 hours ago, Arkay said:

I've never heard of Emmanuel Acho before, but I thought he was sensitive and asked insightful questions, and kept the tone from getting out of hand. He shouldn't have mentioned a final embrace, but otherwise I felt he was fair and on point.

I'm a New Yorker, all races interact daily and there are no parties here celebrating the Antebellum South. So I'm trying to understand that Rachel comes from a Southern culture where these parties happen. Maybe they felt that it was like playing dress-up? Yet it's impossible that no one ever had a flicker of clarity that these were not happy times for black people. Anyone here from the South who knows more about this? I really didn't know that plantation parties were a thing. 

So Katie's season is this summer, and then Michelle will have a season, too. What comes in between? Will there be a BIP? Then after Katie, another Bachelor season before Michelle has her turn? I kind of hope Michelle finds someone before waiting that long, although she would make a great Bachelorette. 

I read that they're going to film Michell's season over the summer because she didn't want to miss any more time from her teaching job.

 

[Bluesky]

8 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

Southern Charm aired regular parties at the Ravenel Plantation.  Yes, in the past, the Ravenels were slave-owners, as it was a Southern Plantation. 
Not once has Andy Cohen, Bravo TV, or any cast member who regularly attended these events been held accountable.  

I believe that Rachael attended what she thought was a fun party with frilly dresses and girlfriends. 
 

If that’s true, she shouldn’t have been In college because she is woefully undereducated.   She never came across as too bright but how are they not teaching their own history in Georgia?  

[bosawks]

I don't think there is any thing wrong with either Matt deciding to give it a shot or to get while the getting was good.

Though, Matt does look he might need some therapy after this.

 

[seacliffsal]

I thought the host was really good and I had never heard of him before they announced that he would host this show.  I loved the fact that Michelle is over Matt-even when he didn't answer her question she just smiled and moved on to mocking the fact that he kisses with his eyes open, always has a bland/canned comment (I forget what she said it was), and the hand on the knee/move that he always pulls-even with his mother.  I think she realizes what a blessing it was he dropped her when he did.

I think Matt just doesn't think quickly on his feet as there was so much silence from him when asked a question.  I do understand that some of the questions were difficult, but based on what I saw during his season and during this episode, I think he just doesn't know how to really communicate beyond superficial statements.

I will probably sit out Katie's season as I was never a fan of hers and wonder why they are choosing someone who left the season fairly early.  However, I will be all in on Michelle's season!

Oh, and to demonstrate how superficial I am-please end this trend of too-tight suits on men combined with wearing shoes without socks.

[mamadrama]

27 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

I have a hard time believing that.  Unless you live in a very rural state like Vermont or Wyoming or the Midwest with more corn than people.  Southern states have large populations of Latinos and Black people.  Northeast cities have immigrants from every country out there.  The west coast is also made up of “people of color”. 

 

Believe it or not but it happens...I live in neither the Midwest, Vermont, or Wyoming and I didn't have a single person of color in my school until I was in high school. My county had 3 elementary schools, one middle, and one high. Not only did my county, or the surrounding ones, not have many (or any) POC, but I wasn't around any kind of diversity until college. The area is majority white Christians. 

"Rachael might not understand what it means to be Black in America," Matt said on the ATFR. 

Well, Matt, she probably doesn't. I've had to educate myself on the matter myself. My education taught Black history, the awfulness of slavery, and the perils and unfairness of racism. My upbringing taught inclusivity and fairness. But as a white woman from southern Appalachia? I think it would be WAY wrong of me to assume that I "know" what it's like to be Black (or a Black man) in America. I can try to understand on a theoretical level, but I've never been in those shoes. All I can do is continue educating myself by listening, learning, and keeping the lines of communication open. 

When Rachel was asked why it took her "so long" to respond to the talk I respected her reply. It would've been easy to have a PR person write out the "right" words for her. Instead, she seemed to choose honesty, and I believe that she IS committed to not only apologizing but working on herself to understand WHY her actions were upsetting. Her words would've been empty and meaningless with continued ignorance. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by mamadrama

[Laurie4H]

7 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Believe it or not but it happens...I live in neither the Midwest, Vermont, or Wyoming and I didn't have a single person of color in my school until I was in high school. My county had 3 elementary schools, one middle, and one high. Not only did my county, or the surrounding ones, not have many (or any) POC, but I wasn't around any kind of diversity until college. The area is majority white Christians. 

"Rachael might not understand what it means to be Black in America," Matt said on the ATFR. 

Well, Matt, she probably doesn't. I've had to educate myself on the matter myself. My education taught Black history, the awfulness of slavery, and the perils and unfairness of racism. My upbringing taught inclusivity and fairness. But as a white woman from southern Appalachia? I think it would be WAY wrong of me to assume that I "know" what it's like to be Black (or a Black man) in America. I can try to understand on a theoretical level, but I've never been in those shoes. All I can do is continue educating myself by listening, learning, and keeping the lines of communication open. 

When Rachel was asked why it took her "so long" to respond to the talk I respected her reply. It would've been easy to have a PR person write out the "right" words for her. Instead, she seemed to choose honesty, and I believe that she IS committed to not only apologizing but working on herself to understand WHY her actions were upsetting. Her words would've been empty and meaningless with continued ignorance. 

Rachel is answering how she is instructed to by the producers.  She showed up on ATFR because it’s in her contract.  I think what they did to her was terrible.  

Edited March 16, 2021 by Laurie4H

[Starlight925]

23 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

If that’s true, she shouldn’t have been In college because she is woefully undereducated.   She never came across as too bright but how are they not teaching their own history in Georgia?  

That's a great point.  Are they teaching their own history in Georgia?  IIRC, she is not from Atlanta, but rather a small city, and she likely grew up in a sheltered community, and her college probably glossed over it as well.  I know mine did.

I go back to the Southern Charm Plantation parties, which were held on the regular.  The entire cast should be on a show with Emmanuel Acho, including Bravo producers and Andy Cohen.  

I thoroughly enjoyed how Mr. Acho handled this discussion, how he spoke out against "cancel culture", but rather let's come to a place of understanding.  

I admit, I wasn't looking forward to seeing Acho, as I had no idea who he was, but I think he's terrific.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Starlight925

[Jax7917]

I think Matt had the “ dad can’t be committed to one person , and it scarred and rubbed off on me “ card in his pocket the whole season . He knew he wasn’t proposing to anyone from the beginning . He comes off as such a play boy to me . He says all the right things , has the sincere look down Pat ... but to me it comes off as being over rehearsed. I think he likes that he had an “ out “ with Rachael . When Emmanuel asked him if the door was slightly open to reconciling things , he danced around it but pretty much said no , which was very telling . And then when Michelle said that he wouldn’t even give her 2 minutes to speak with her , that was even more telling . He never has even been in a relationship or brought a girl home before this season where he was forced to . He , like many others before him is just an opportunist and definitely came on the show for anything but love . 

[mamadrama]

37 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

If that’s true, she shouldn’t have been In college because she is woefully undereducated.   She never came across as too bright but how are they not teaching their own history in Georgia?  

It's not a matter of "not teaching their own history". In the past 30 years, particularly, we've used the same history books as everyone else. In the matter of the tourist driven houses & properties (and maybe even the themed parties) it's more of a matter of compartmentalizing and focusing on other aspects of the property and/or time period (the clothing/ghost stories/historical architecture/ family anecdotes, etc) rather than the big picture. it's not just a Georgia or southern problem, either. Hollywood and literature have done it for decades. How often do we see movies or read books that gloss over the slavery in favor of a romance? 

Yes, it's a problem. It's not one that is going to get better on its own, though. In my experience, berating someone for their education, or implying that they are stupid, isn't the answer either. In fact, it often makes people dig in. She is just one person, but she did something that was racially ignorant or insensitive (as the host said) and now understands why it was wrong and hurtful. Hopefully she'll go forward as a better person and, maybe, others following this will as well. One person basically started this conversation, but it could have a snowball effect. Every bit helps.

I didn't know the host either, but he was kinda hot. And big! (As in muscular.) His suit was straining. I dug him. Actually, I preferred him to Matt.I'dits have been fine eliminating Matt and just watching him and the women talk.  

Edited March 16, 2021 by mamadrama

[Starlight925]

3 minutes ago, Jax7917 said:

I think Matt had the “ dad can’t be committed to one person , and it scarred and rubbed off on me “ card in his pocket the whole season . He knew he wasn’t proposing to anyone from the beginning . He comes off as such a play boy to me . He says all the right things , has the sincere look down Pat ... but to me it comes off as being over rehearsed. I think he likes that he had an “ out “ with Rachael . When Emmanuel asked him if the door was slightly open to reconciling things , he danced around it but pretty much said no , which was very telling . And then when Michelle said that he wouldn’t even give her 2 minutes to speak with her , that was even more telling . He never has even been in a relationship or brought a girl home before this season where he was forced to . He , like many others before him is just an opportunist and definitely came on the show for anything but love . 

When Matt was on "Watch What Happens Live" with Andy Cohen several weeks ago, I thought, no way is this guy ever going to get married....to anyone.

He was drinking and actually seemed drunk.  He had the huge bushy beard and a dark colored knit cap, and he kept throwing his head back, laughing hysterically, almost uncontrollably.  Then taking another sip.  Repeat.  

Interesting that Andy Cohen was the one who had him on, given that Bravo aired so many "Plantation party" stories.

I fully believe, after observing Matt last night, uncomfortably unscripted, that he never wanted to "find a wife".  Puh-lease.  He has years of therapy ahead of him if he ever wants to put his father's actions behind him.  His mom obviously still harbors resentment, and that's her "journey", but now Matt needs to separate himself from mommy (stop rubbing her leg, Matt....ick) and immerse himself in some therapy to get through this.

[mamadrama]

18 minutes ago, Laurie4H said:

Rachel is answering how she is instructed to by the producers.  She showed up on ATFR because it’s in her contract.  I think what they did to her was terrible.  

I think that's ultimately why she didn't respond immediately on social media, too. As long as she's under contract to them they'll have a say in what she says and posts. I don't like how she's been treated either, especially since I think they'll eventually have Chris back on-and I have a lot of beef with him. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

With the exception of the public nature of the controversy, I would guess that most interracial relationships have experienced and even survived far more problematic forms of racism from the members. 

This is a wild assumption.  What Rachael did is really extreme and no, I have never encountered anything remotely close to it being born of and going through many interracial relationships myself.  It's okay to look at what Rachael did without tarnishing "most" interracial relationships with the same brush.

A lot of people consumed alcohol during this past year of quarantine, but that equates to Matt having lifelong problems?  

Edited March 16, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[LBS]

17 minutes ago, Starlight925 said:

That's a great point.  Are they teaching their own history in Georgia?  IIRC, she is not from Atlanta, but rather a small city, and she likely grew up in a sheltered community, and her college probably glossed over it as well.  I know mine did.

She grew up in a ‘sundown’ town (Cummings, GA). When I talked to my husband who spent his teens/went to college in Georgia about this whole thing and I told him where she lived, his first reaction was it tracked because that area is notoriously known as being a racist area.  I do give Rachael credit for seemingly working on educating herself because it seems like she grew up absorbing racist learnings be it implicit and explicit.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

14 minutes ago, Starlight925 said:

...stop rubbing her leg, Matt....ick...

My wife and I noticed that last night: first, Matt put his hand on his mom's shoulder, then started stroking her thigh, going almost halfway up. My wife was squicked out by both. I can excuse the hand on the shoulder as maybe just being a touchy-feely family. But stroking the thigh? I can honestly say that as an adult, nobody has ever stroked my thigh like that, nor me stroked their thigh, unless the two of us were in an intimate relationship.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[Bobcatkitten]

So am I the only one startled by Rachel's weight loss? She was stunning before and now looks way too thin. I hope she is okay. She handled herself well. 

 

I liked Ancho. He was good except for the stupid embrace question. I do wish they would have focused on a little more than the one party she went to. She also like racially insensitive posts with women by a confederate flag and women dressing up in stereotypical Mexican garb. 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What little I know about what Rachael did ranks to me as easily forgivable and not something to say "I can't stand with her until she does the work" because IMO there's not that much "work" to do. It was ignorant, but she is 24 and was a mere 21 when the photo was taken. By definition, she was willing to envision a life with a Black man on some level, even if she didn't fully appreciate what that means in Matt's case. She presumably is willing to change.

She didn't know what was wrong with going to the party or taking the photo when it first came out three years later.  These parties have been banned on many college campuses. (I think hers too but I'm not entirely sure).  There is other social media activity that indicates this wasn't a one time poor decision. 

It's not that she can't grow.  She can.  It's that everyone has to ask themselves what they're willing to put into a relationship.  Matt is probably willing to have conversations with a white partner; he's just not willing to have all the conversations.  Or at least not with Rachael.

Matt has many flaws.  (Many)  But not wanting to explain to his girlfriend the many ways racism shows itself in society isn't what I'd consider one of them.

[lgprimes]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by lgprimes
Long story- quoting error

[mamadrama]

2 minutes ago, lgprimes said:

Millions of us do live in such places ( I live in rural New York State very near Vermont). I recently chose the book “The Warmth of Other Suns” for a book club. Some of the comments were “I never knew Black people were stopped from living in certain neighborhoods, now I understand better how hard it is for them “.  I know many people who haven’t had a Black acquaintance in their lifetime. I wasn’t commenting on what Rachel did, but on the importance of last night’s show in shedding light on the experience that Black people live every day in this country. It’s too easy for people to “not think about it” , and anything that raises awareness will hopefully increase empathy.

I'm not sure why this post is quoting me. That's not my comment. 

[nittany cougar]

7 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I think that's ultimately why she didn't respond immediately on social media, too. As long as she's under contract to them they'll have a say in what she says and posts. I don't like how she's been treated either, especially since I think they'll eventually have Chris back on-and I have a lot of beef with him. 

I agree..  I think that, while it was really stupid for Rachel to attend that antebellum party in college, the criticism she has received is way over the top. Yes she was very insensitive and dumb, but this show is full of insensitive dumbasses.  We've had rapists and abusers who were treated better by the Bachelor.   I think it was very important for her to apologize, but the reaction this has received is way over the top in proportion to her offense.  I really hate what social media did to this show. 

Matt looked terrible on the after show, so this didn't do him any favors, either.

Fortunately, since Chris Harrison was the only thing I still liked, I no longer have to watch this shit.  

Edited March 16, 2021 by nittany cougar

[lgprimes]

1 hour ago, Bluesky said:

Unless you live in a very rural state like Vermont or Wyoming or the Midwest with more corn than people.

Millions of us do live in such places ( I live in rural New York State very near Vermont). I recently chose the book “The Warmth of Other Suns” for a book club. Some of the comments were “I never knew Black people were stopped from living in certain neighborhoods, now I understand better how hard it is for them “.  I know many people who haven’t had a Black acquaintance in their lifetime. I wasn’t commenting on what Rachel did, but on the importance of last night’s show in shedding light on the experience that Black people live every day in this country. It’s too easy for people to “not think about it” , and anything that raises awareness will hopefully increase empathy.

@mamadrama you’re right I was quoting Bluesky’s post but accidentally picked it up from where you quoted them. I now have a corrected version but don’t know how to delete the first one!

[peachmangosteen]

I haven't watched this season but I did watch this because I love drama. Unfortunately, it was a bit of a letdown in that area. I mostly just cringed watching it.

On the UO side of things, I did not think the host was good at all. Mostly because he just wasn't natural and you could really tell he was reading a script. Although, I suppose you can with Chris, too. In any case, I'd be down for this guy to take over permanently for Chris tbh since I'm over Chris and also this guy is much better looking lol.

I thought Rachael was handled by the host (so TPTB) very softly but still she did well, I thought. I actually believe she might try to learn and grow from this. I hope she does. In shallow news, she is stunning.

Matt is one of the few men that I just don't think looks better with a beard. I think it's maybe just too much though and he'd probably look hot as hell with more of a scruff situation.

[Arkay]

What a mistake for Matt to have ever come on this show. I didn't know much about him, except that he was buddies with Tyler Cameron and thus by extension part of his quarantine crew with Hannah Brown (ugh). And then that he was in a very expensive apartment in Manhattan, roomies with Tyler.

Being the lead on this show did him no favors. Yes his exposure has increased and whatever goodies come with that in the 21st century of influencers. But IMO he came off all season as a dumbass with nothing to say. He clearly had dad issues which I do not belittle, but now we see he has mom issues as well. He's tongue-tied which is an impediment to the lead of a show. As another poster said, he had a wealth of lovely women of color from which to choose, but he chose a white Southern belle. Of course she could never truly understand him as a black man. However, he has a white mom who married an African. Did she understand either? (Although the father is a jerk). But having a white mom must have given him some kind of insight into interracial issues and he was just dumbstruck. I know he's in pain and Rachel's ignorance deeply wounded him, but if he LOVED her, maybe he could've tried to work WITH her to help with these issues. The way he was so callous to Michelle by denying her closure shows me that he's got issues with closing himself off and not wanting to deal with anything uncomfortable. 

Shame, because I liked him at the start.

[Dehumidifier]

Two black Bachelorettes and one black Bachelor and every one chose a white finalist. If I recall properly Rachel Lindsay's final three or four were all white. Why are they not being accused of racism?

[LakeGal]

I find it interesting that Matt jumped to Hannah B's defense when she was going through her racial shaming.  But he doesn't have the same sympathy and understanding for the woman he claimed to be in love with.  I really don't think Matt wanted to get married to anyone.  He wanted to sleep with women.  He took the opportunity on The Bachelor to kiss and sleep with as many women as he could.  He didn't give Rachael the ring even before he knew about her past.  I think he used the situation to get out of the relationship.  He didn't even take Rachael on a final date on the show.  He dumped Michelle in a very cold way without letting her get answers.  He was crying to Chris Harrison sitting on the curb.  Matt was a bad choice for the Bachelor.  I don't think he ever planned to propose to anyone.  

That beard is really a bad fashion choice for him.  Ewww.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, lgprimes said:

Millions of us do live in such places ( I live in rural New York State very near Vermont). I recently chose the book “The Warmth of Other Suns” for a book club. Some of the comments were “I never knew Black people were stopped from living in certain neighborhoods, now I understand better how hard it is for them “.  I know many people who haven’t had a Black acquaintance in their lifetime. I wasn’t commenting on what Rachel did, but on the importance of last night’s show in shedding light on the experience that Black people live every day in this country. It’s too easy for people to “not think about it” , and anything that raises awareness will hopefully increase empathy.

@mamadrama you’re right I was quoting Bluesky’s post but accidentally picked it up from where you quoted them. I now have a corrected version but don’t know how to delete the first one!

Lol, it happens. I just wondered since you and I were basically saying the same thing. 🙂

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

25 minutes ago, Arkay said:

What a mistake for Matt to have ever come on this show. I didn't know much about him, except that he was buddies with Tyler Cameron and thus by extension part of his quarantine crew with Hannah Brown (ugh). And then that he was in a very expensive apartment in Manhattan, roomies with Tyler.

Being the lead on this show did him no favors. Yes his exposure has increased and whatever goodies come with that in the 21st century of influencers. But IMO he came off all season as a dumbass with nothing to say. He clearly had dad issues which I do not belittle, but now we see he has mom issues as well. He's tongue-tied which is an impediment to the lead of a show.

 

1 minute ago, LakeGal said:

He didn't even take Rachael on a final date on the show.  He dumped Michelle in a very cold way without letting her get answers.  He was crying to Chris Harrison sitting on the curb.  Matt was a bad choice for the Bachelor.  I don't think he ever planned to propose to anyone.  

That beard is really a bad fashion choice for him.  Ewww.

This season has shown why the normal Bachelor(ette) vetting procedure is the correct one: By only casting leads who are former contestants, you ensure the person you're picking can relate to someone on-camera and talk articulately when they're being filmed and know their every word will be scrutinized (which is harder than it looks). If Matt had been a contestant on Clare's season (which he was before Fleiss and co. yanked him and cast him as the lead here), I doubt he would have even been invited onto BiP, let alone headline the main show. As others have mentioned, he's not articulate on camera and doesn't relate well, resorting to the same stock phrases for every situation. He probably gave a great interview and had Hannah and Tyler vouching for him, but his personality didn't translate well to the actual show.

As for the beard: It wasn't terrible by itself (although he desperately needs to spend a few bucks on a beard trimmer to make it all the same length), but a big bushy beard doesn't work when you have a buzz cut on top. If he'd grown an afro, or even a long hairstyle on top like Acho, the beard would have been fine, but it's too jarring otherwise. I assume he grew it out because he could wear a hat, put on some big sunglasses, and likely wouldn't be recognized in public.

[mamadrama]

14 minutes ago, LakeGal said:

I find it interesting that Matt jumped to Hannah B's defense when she was going through her racial shaming.  But he doesn't have the same sympathy and understanding for the woman he claimed to be in love with.  I really don't think Matt wanted to get married to anyone.  He wanted to sleep with women.  He took the opportunity on The Bachelor to kiss and sleep with as many women as he could.  He didn't give Rachael the ring even before he knew about her past.  I think he used the situation to get out of the relationship.  He didn't even take Rachael on a final date on the show.  He dumped Michelle in a very cold way without letting her get answers.  He was crying to Chris Harrison sitting on the curb.  Matt was a bad choice for the Bachelor.  I don't think he ever planned to propose to anyone.  

That beard is really a bad fashion choice for him.  Ewww.

He didn't give her the ring or the final date before it happened. He seemed a little checked out to me since the beginning. 

I do think a lot of things happened offscreen, though. I wish we knew ALL of the story. 

[DEL901]

I think when Rachael said she didn’t connect the dots.... she didn’t say she didn’t know about racism and slavery.  But when she was invited to that antebellum party, she just thought “ooh, pretty dresses” and never bothered to think about the historical context.   Part of that is the selfishness of youth, IMO, who wasn’t thinking about anything or anyone but herself.   I do like how she responded, taking accountability and not making excuses.  

[mamadrama]

8 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

I think when Rachael said she didn’t connect the dots.... she didn’t say she didn’t know about racism and slavery.  But when she was invited to that antebellum party, she just thought “ooh, pretty dresses” and never bothered to think about the historical context.   Part of that is the selfishness of youth, IMO, who wasn’t thinking about anything or anyone but herself.   I do like how she responded, taking accountability and not making excuses.  

It's a good conversation to have. I worked for a historical mansion when I was younger. I was a tour guide and had to wear the big dress with the hoop skirt. The property never had slaves. Indeed, the owner was a well-known abolitionist. Because of that, and because at least half of the tour was spent on his political stuff and the work he did to abolish slavery, it never occurred to me that the outfit might hold hurtful connotations. That was 20 years ago, but it's given me a lot of thought over the years. 

With Rachel, though, that one picture wasn't an isolated incident. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by mamadrama

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

3 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

I think when Rachael said she didn’t connect the dots.... she didn’t say she didn’t know about racism and slavery.  But when she was invited to that antebellum party, she just thought “ooh, pretty dresses” and never bothered to think about the historical context.   Part of that is the selfishness of youth, IMO, who wasn’t thinking about anything or anyone but herself.   I do like how she responded, taking accountability and not making excuses.  

She probably was told the theme and thought "Ooh! Scarlett O'Hara!" without understanding that Gone With the Wind* portrayed and romanticized an era when black people were bought and sold like chattel. The marriage vows of that era given to slaves even included the phrase "Until death or great distance do us part," because one half of a couple might well be sold to someone else, meaning they would never see each other again.

*I doubt someone her age had ever seen Gone with the Wind, but the film itself is part of the American cultural zeitgeist. I'd be willing to bet money that if I took a still of Vivien Leigh from the film and asked 50 random people on the street to identify it, all of them would either say "Scarlett O'Hara," "Gone With the Wind," or at least "that Clark Gable movie."

[Dehumidifier]

I'm watching the 2019 movie Little Women right now. Set in Massachusetts during the Civil War. There is a ball going on. Their dresses look pretty big and hoopy to me. 

[mamadrama]

4 minutes ago, Dehumidifier said:

I'm watching the 2019 movie Little Women right now. Set in Massachusetts during the Civil War. There is a ball going on. Their dresses look pretty big and hoopy to me. 

The style of dress was common for the time period across numerous geographical areas. It's the "antebellum ball" part that really gives it that extra push. 

[Quickbeam]

I am so glad there was no social media around when I was a teenager or in college. This whole generation will have their idiocies follow them for life. Mine was probably the last generation that could leave youthful stupidity in the past. Imagine their lives at 40 or 50 apologizing endlessly for juvenile mistakes. 
 

This was an awful season and it really annoyed me that so many beautiful women of color were tossed on the trash heap so early. I do hope they continue to mix it up in terms of race and ethnicity. 

[LakeGal]

I just watched Bri interviewed on Daily Pop.  She seems to be completely over Matt.  They asked her if it had been reversed and she was the black Bachelorette and she had picked a white man that had that past how would she have handled it.  She carefully said that if she was in love with the guy she would have worked with him to try and help him understand.  She would not have dumped him like Matt did to Rachael.  She said she felt for both Rachael and Matt doing that interview.  It seems like most of the girls did like Rachael.  I know Serena P also talking kindly about her.  Bri also did not like Matt's beard and is not still in love with him.  She was asked about doing Bachelor in Paradise and she was open to it.  

I think most of the women that were on this season are seeing the real Matt now that they have watched the show.  The way he handled Michelle is not going to help him.  I also think his strange faces and expressions didn't help.  

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

6 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

I do hope they continue to mix it up in terms of race and ethnicity. 

It would be good (I'd also like to see the occasional Asian and Latino leads), but I doubt it will happen. I read somewhere that this season's ratings were almost 20% lower than Peter Pilot's season, and Tayshia's Bachelorette finale was the lowest-rated franchise finale ever. Similarly, Rachel Lindsay's season supposedly didn't do well ratings-wise. ABC and Fleiss have to cast for the audience they have, not the audience they wish they had, and it's obvious that a significant number of viewers don't want a minority lead.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Dehumidifier said:

Two black Bachelorettes and one black Bachelor and every one chose a white finalist. If I recall properly Rachel Lindsay's final three or four were all white. Why are they not being accused of racism?

Falling in love isn't racism.  

Eric was in Rachel's final 3, and he is Black.  

[Never Again]

12 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

Southern Charm aired regular parties at the Ravenel Plantation.  Yes, in the past, the Ravenels were slave-owners, as it was a Southern Plantation. 
Not once has Andy Cohen, Bravo TV, or any cast member who regularly attended these events been held accountable.  

I believe that Rachael attended what she thought was a fun party with frilly dresses and girlfriends. 

I like that Acho pointed out that one must look at the intent.  She was barely 21, and I don’t believe she had any ill intent.  Ignorance, absolutely.  
 

Matt’s a cold, insensitive person.  No, I’m not talking about his breakup, even though I believe he’s a commitment phobe who will be single at 60.  
 

He wouldn’t even give Michelle 2 minutes.   And then he did that thing that I hate:  when Michelle asked him why he wouldn’t give her 2 minutes, he deflected and blathered on about how wonderful she is.   He never really answered the question, except to say that had he known she only wanted closure, he’d have talked to her.  
Really??   You just broke this girl’s heart, you won’t talk to her?  Let’s say that she did want to try to convince him to come back, or cry to him about her hurt feelings.  He wouldn’t have given her that time.  He said so.  
Good riddance, Matt.  As Acho said, I hope we never see you again either. 
    Emmanuel Acho....for Bachelor!!

 

All of this! 

[phlebas]

1 hour ago, Dehumidifier said:

Two black Bachelorettes and one black Bachelor and every one chose a white finalist. If I recall properly Rachel Lindsay's final three or four were all white. Why are they not being accused of racism?

I think Brian is Hispanic.  Don't remember where I heard that, though.

[Dehumidifier]

Just now, phlebas said:

I think Brian is Hispanic.  Don't remember where I heard that, though.

Still not black. Come to think of it, Rachel Kirkconnell's paternal grandparents father were "born in Honduras."https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/pictures/bachelors-rachael-kirkconnell-meet-her-parents-siblings/darrells-background/

[luvbadtv]

3 hours ago, Jax7917 said:

. He , like many others before him is just an opportunist and definitely came on the show for anything but love . 

Are you saying he wasn't there for the right reasons?

[Ms Blue Jay]

14 minutes ago, phlebas said:

I think Brian is Hispanic.  Don't remember where I heard that, though.

Yes, he is Columbian 

[Bluesky]

2 hours ago, lgprimes said:

Millions of us do live in such places ( I live in rural New York State very near Vermont). I recently chose the book “The Warmth of Other Suns” for a book club. Some of the comments were “I never knew Black people were stopped from living in certain neighborhoods, now I understand better how hard it is for them “.  I know many people who haven’t had a Black acquaintance in their lifetime. I wasn’t commenting on what Rachel did, but on the importance of last night’s show in shedding light on the experience that Black people live every day in this country. It’s too easy for people to “not think about it” , and anything that raises awareness will hopefully increase empathy.

@mamadrama you’re right I was quoting Bluesky’s post but accidentally picked it up from where you quoted them. I now have a corrected version but don’t know how to delete the first one!

I know I learned about redlining neighborhoods but can’t remember if it was high school or college.  

I remember when I was about 12 years old there was some TV show on.  It was about a small southern town in the 60’s and the scene was three white men beating up a black man.  The sherif drove by slowly but didn’t stop to help.  I asked my father if they really did that and he said yes.  Learning that bothered me so much I can still picture the scene.  It’s just so hard to believe people can live in this country and be so unaware.  

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

With Rachel, though, that one picture wasn't an isolated incident. 

Thanks for this. I haven’t been watching this season so I haven’t looked too closely into this but I thought I had seen that there was more to it. That’s why I was confused that they were only talking to her about that one picture. It seemed to me TPTB were a) being soft on her so she could give her ‘I was ignorant but now I’m doing the work’ answers and b) trying to sort of downplay the issue. 

[LBS]

2 hours ago, Dehumidifier said:

 

Two black Bachelorettes and one black Bachelor and every one chose a white finalist. If I recall properly Rachel Lindsay's final three or four were all white. Why are they not being accused of racism?

 

Because none of them or their final picks were ever credibly accused of making racially insensitive remarks, attending racist parties, etc.    

[phlebas]

39 minutes ago, Dehumidifier said:

Still not black. Come to think of it, Rachel Kirkconnell's paternal grandparents father were "born in Honduras."https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/pictures/bachelors-rachael-kirkconnell-meet-her-parents-siblings/darrells-background/

No, not black, but maybe not identifying as white.  But maybe the "Two black Bachelorettes and one black Bachelor and every one chose a white finalist" sort of scoreboarding is not the point?

[b2H]

15 hours ago, saber5055 said:

This franchise used to be fun, some laughs, some bloopers. Now it's an hour-long social awareness class. Maybe I'll see you guys next season, but not if it doesn't lighten up and get over itself. I can only take so much of this growth BS.

Bye.

I am probably completely out.  Hubby and I have watched this show together in all its iterations for probably seven years.  If I hear that they have re-tooled the show and change themselves away from the influencers and the Instagram crowd, we might be back.  

I had the opportunity to watch the Australian version of this franchise eighteen months ago and was shocked to see how far the American version had strayed from the original.  

Now, it’s clear:  the franchise has jumped the shark.  Time to move on.

[b2H]

5 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I have a hard time believing that.  Unless you live in a very rural state like Vermont or Wyoming or the Midwest with more corn than people.  Southern states have large populations of Latinos and Black people.  Northeast cities have immigrants from every country out there.  The west coast is also made up of “people of color”. 

Racheal may or may not have had negative views of Black people.  She might have been as stupid as she claims.  But the majority of the people at those parties knew exactly what they were doing and what it meant.  And those are the type of people she chose as friends.  

Correct me if I am wrong, but when I saw Rachael’s father, he appeared to be Hispanic.  Did I mis-identify that?

ETA:  a couple of folks above have confirmed dad is Colombian.  Thanks!!!

Edited March 16, 2021 by b2H

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

I'd also like to see the occasional Asian and Latino leads

Juan Pablo is Venezuelan, so there's already been a Latino lead. No Asian leads so far; I'd like to see the show change that by casting the adorable Dr. Joe as the next Bachelor.