S25.E12: After the Final Rose

[catrice2]

6 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

When the show has a Black bachelor, he needs to initiate discussion of race with any white women he is considering, as the show gets closer to the finale.  questions about her experience with dating Men who are not white, socializing with Black friends, and how her parents would react to them dating, all need to be addressed.  Rachael seemed naive about issues of race, like someone who says "I don't see color,"  when that is obviously not true.  

The party Rachael attended was hosted by her sorority, which was likely all white.  THe national sorority put a stop to the "Old South" type of party, so her chapter just re-themed it to "Rose Ball" and had it anyway.  Sororities are steeped in tradition, and my experience is that they are not open to questioning of traditions.  If all of your friends are attending a traditional party, it takes courage to question the tradition.  A lot of white people wouldn't see the party itself as racist unless it was explained to them.  

That's not the definition of racism.  Dating outside your race is not, by itself, racist.  It's not treating someone unfairly because of their race, and it's not rooted in the belief that one race is superior.  I'm not sure how you are defining racism, but that's not it. 

Let me also try to explain to the poster that these people were not chosen out of the air.  TPTB spend a lot more time making sure that their black contestants have "whiteness" in their life than vice versa.  Almost every contestant that I have researched or watch either has a white parent or lived their lives in close proximity to whiteness.....a white adoptive parent,  tons of white friends and white schools ( Rachel L) or a history of dating only ( Tayshia) or mostly white people.   This was done for a reason.   Rachael had inappropriate men on her season. ...too young, not where they needed to be career wise, etc.  But Rachel was also honest when she told them that she was really OPEN to dating anyone.....so what does her choosing Bryan have to do with anything? Tayshia grew up with only white people and had only dated white...(which they well knew) and people tend to choose what they are comfortable with.  With Matt's documented history of white friends, a white mom, etc. they knew the odds were there.  Here's the thing, with both Rachel and Matt they had a win win.  If they chose a Black person, then they could trot them out as their diversity couple, and if they didn't they still got an interracial couple (with one Black)  to tout.  But for some people the fact that they chose a non minority seems to prove something to them other than they chose who they had feelings for. 

Personally I think Matt was not that into anyone and I feel he chose the person that he felt he would hurt the least in the end when it didn't work out and would be willing to just date him.  I think he cared for her, but knew going in that it might now work out long term that's why he didn't propose.  He knew Michelle and Bri were not going to do that. I also don't know that he was conscious of what he was doing, thought he liked her more than he did and when issues came up he realized that his feelings were not deep enough.   Oddly didn't he and people close to him say before the show? that they didn't think he would marry?  So why is everyone surprised ? 

Also, I always have questioned everything and never needed to be in the "in" crowd. So I don't participate in things or events that I don't understand. 

[catrice2]

3 minutes ago, DA6988 said:

It’s not Matt’s responsibility to stay with someone to teach them. Every black person (or any person of color) has different boundaries and it’s perfectly okay for Matt’s to be what he articulated about the dealbreaker being that she still didn’t get what the problem was until he literally spelled it out. It’s fine that that made him realize that he wasn’t down to keep going. 
 

Basically, most of these relationships crash and burn. Odds are they weren’t that into each other to begin with and then ran into this issue and he called it quits. Which he is within his rights to do. I don’t think he’s any worse than any other contestant whose ended it with their F1 five minutes after the ‘proposal.’ 
 

And you’re argument has one big flaw - Rachael not understanding how her actions (despite not intending yo be malicious or hurt others) do affect her relationship with Matt. She was unable to make connections with some pretty basic things re to race but thinks she’s ready to be in a relationship with a black men? She didn’t once make those connections after the fact or during the season. Which to me, means she hasn’t meaningfully engaged in any discussions about race since this incident happened and/or held problematic beliefs. If it’s the former then I question who she surrounds herself with because in today’s climate you essentially have to NOT want engage in those discussions to avoid them. If it’s the latter I question she surrounds herself with because they’re probably problematic themselves and she’s okay with that. Basically, while I’m glad from her words on the episode etc. that she seems to be learning now if I were in Matt’s shoes I would most definitely question whether this person is ready to be in a relationship with me and whether I was ready to be their “teacher” versus their partner. Because Rachael needs to engage in a lot of unlearning and their entire relationship would end up being about that. And once again, it’s okay if Matt didn’t want to do that. 
 

I  with him not thinking twice about it. It seemed he did think twice about it and was triggered by having to pretty much explain the basics. He also seems like someone who struggles with his own black identity and comfort levels - his conversation with Emmanuel for example made me realize that due to editing and never getting to hear him talk about it that I actually have NO idea who Matt is. He spent the entire season walking on eggshells because he’s black and he knew he’d already be perceived a certain way. I honestly can’t fault him for not wanting to be in the position of dealing with all of that + Rachael all the time after that experience. 
 

Again, I think at the end of the day the fact that I don’t think he was ever Sean with Catherine levels in love with Rachael plays a role. This might have gotten dragged out like Becca and Garrett (and we saw how that turned out). 
 

I also find it fascinating that even when Rachael herself is saying things like “Just because it’s normal or I didn’t make the connection doesn’t mean it’s okay” people are bending over backward to defend her making the same points she said are not a defense. 

 

I think people are taking this personally.  Just as it became a Chris against Rachael somehow the whole situation with Matt and Racheael is not about them as individuals, but about something else.  Yes, it baffles me too that Rachael saying one thing and her "fans" are still not doing what he is asking....they are still trying to defend what she said is not able to be defended

No sense in dragging it out....who knows?  Nothing surprises me. They might get back together, but he does not owe her a relationship at the expense of his peace or to prove a point to anyone.  That is ridiculous. 

I think both Tayshia and Matt learned a lot about themselves and how others view them during their seasons. 

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, Back Atcha said:

I won't waste my time...and it's not about Harrison's "woke" image regarding race.  He puts the "S in SMARMY.  It's time to put him out to pasture--past time.

Shew, I was angry by how he kept referring to Rachel as "this girl." 

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

And maybe I'm a sucker, but if I was in Matt's place and things were a lot more severe (like finding out that Rachael was an actual member of a hate group in her college years but has since realized the error of her ways), I would of course be stunned but would at least be willing to give her a chance to show me she's willing to work on herself and be a good partner to me despite her past. As far as we were told (and I could have missed something or they could have held back parts of the true story), Rachael was open to making the relationship work and confronting her own racial insensitivity, and Matt wasn't even conflicted about kicking her to the curb or leaving the door truly open to "maybe one day if she's shown enough progress we can give it a second try."

How is attending antebellum parties not an activity of a hate group?  It's not a love group, like loving Antebellum group.  It's a hate group.  It's a white supremacy activity.  

Like Rachel said, she does not want to victimize herself, because straight up, she is no victim.  And yet somehow the public opinion is that Matt has victimized her in some way.  He's allowed to break up with a racist.  He's allowed that right.  He did nothing to victimize Rachel. 

Somebody told me that Rachel was persecuted.
In fact, Matt finding out about those pictures should lead to Matt feeling persecuted.  Rachel is not being persecuted here.  She was just dumped.  

Breaking up with someone who hid a huge part of their life from you is a deserved action.  It's not persecution.  

 

When you're celebrating Antebellum, you're celebrating the time when Black people were still slaves.  You're romanticizing that time. It's like wanting to go back to that time, like wishing Black people were never freed.  How can Matt reconcile that?  How can anyone blame Matt for his actions?  How can people call him cold?  LOL "cold".  You'd damn right I'd be cold if I found something like that out.  

Edited March 17, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[EllenB]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Here's a thought experiment 

Imagine that you are single once again and there's a person who seems like the perfect partner for you. Smart, funny, good-looking, dependable, passionate or whatever else rocks your world. You date long enough to start to think this is a person you could really envision spending your life with.

And then you find out something about them that:

1. Happened years before you met the person

2. That was not criminal nor malicious in any way on your person's part but merely extremely insensitive/clueless

3. That does not figure in and of itself to directly impact you, your person or your relationship most likely (in other words, it's not something like your person has a STD that could be transmitted to you, or an addiction that your person may have a relapse for)

4. That the person now genuinely knows was a big mistake

5. That the person says they will work to change and avoid a repeat. 

What is your reaction?

Do you forgive the person the transgression?

Agree to work with them about it, maybe seek therapy?

Or break up with them in a phone call, telling them they have to do the work alone and you're not here for it?

Now this may be an oversimplification of events, but this is essentially what happened with Matt and Rachael. 

And maybe I'm a sucker, but if I was in Matt's place and things were a lot more severe (like finding out that Rachael was an actual member of a hate group in her college years but has since realized the error of her ways), I would of course be stunned but would at least be willing to give her a chance to show me she's willing to work on herself and be a good partner to me despite her past. As far as we were told (and I could have missed something or they could have held back parts of the true story), Rachael was open to making the relationship work and confronting her own racial insensitivity, and Matt wasn't even conflicted about kicking her to the curb or leaving the door truly open to "maybe one day if she's shown enough progress we can give it a second try."

I'd add to your list "The mistake caused pain to many other students"

"The person did not come to realize the wrongness of their action on their own, but had to have it pointed out to them AFTER they'd received a university education"

"The person had also liked and forwarded reprehensible items on social media more recently than the original action and had not specifically addressed doing that"

We don't get to tell Matt how to feel about this. In his shoes, I would never be able to look into Rachael's eyes without a tiny voice whispering "What else?". As a white person, I can't think of an equivalent situation. Maybe if I knew someone who had referred to my family, or people like my family, as trash, I could still perhaps work with that person and be cordial, but they would not be my friend and I would no longer have respect for them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[atlanticslide]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Now this may be an oversimplification of events, but this is essentially what happened with Matt and Rachael. 

And maybe I'm a sucker, but if I was in Matt's place and things were a lot more severe (like finding out that Rachael was an actual member of a hate group in her college years but has since realized the error of her ways), I would of course be stunned but would at least be willing to give her a chance to show me she's willing to work on herself and be a good partner to me despite her past. As far as we were told (and I could have missed something or they could have held back parts of the true story), Rachael was open to making the relationship work and confronting her own racial insensitivity, and Matt wasn't even conflicted about kicking her to the curb or leaving the door truly open to "maybe one day if she's shown enough progress we can give it a second try."

The thing is, we don't actually know that that's essentially what happened with Matt and Rachel. None of us were there once the cameras stopped rolling so we don't actually know how things went down. And regardless, I don't really see the point in this kind of thought experiment. Much as we might like to think so considering the nature of this show, this wasn't actually our relationship. What I or anyone else might have done in the same situation is irrelevant; everyone is allowed to draw their own lines in their own relationships and make up their own minds about what they will or won't accept, when they're willing to work on repairing things and when they want to bail on it. It's a bummer for Rachael, but Matt's under no obligation to stick it out or leave any doors open. 

[chocolatine]

I think it can both be true that Rachael's past actions (of which, as has been said, there were more than just the one incident mentioned on the show) are a "legitimate" cause for a breakup, *and* that Matt never intended to be in a committed relationship with Rachael and was therefore not motivated to work through any problems with her.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

How is attending antebellum parties not an activity of a hate group?  It's not a love group, like loving Antebellum group.  It's a hate group.  It's a white supremacy activity.  

Like Rachel said, she does not want to victimize herself, because straight up, she is no victim.  And yet somehow the public opinion is that Matt has victimized her in some way.  He's allowed to break up with a racist.  He's allowed that right.  He did nothing to victimize Rachel. 

Somebody told me that Rachel was persecuted.
In fact, Matt finding out about those pictures should lead to Matt feeling persecuted.  Rachel is not being persecuted here.  She was just dumped.  

Breaking up with someone who hid a huge part of their life from you is a deserved action.  It's not persecution.  

 

When you're celebrating Antebellum, you're celebrating the time when Black people were still slaves.  You're romanticizing that time. It's like wanting to go back to that time, like wishing Black people were never freed.  How can Matt reconcile that?  How can anyone blame Matt for his actions?  How can people call him cold?  LOL "cold".  You'd damn right I'd be cold if I found something like that out.  

Attending an antebellum party and being a skinhead, neo-Nazi or KKK member are two different things in my mind. It is easier to accept someone not fully appreciating the harmfulness of attending an antebellum party and less easy to accept the notion that someone marching and yelling "The Jews will not replace us" doesn't know exactly what they are saying. It would be more reasonable IMO to conclude it would be more trouble than it's worth to try to reform a former tiki-torch bearing, siegheiling racist no matter how much they protest their desire for reform.

I agree that in 2018 or 2021, people should be able to piece together the ramifications of an antebellum party. But I think it's plausible that someone does not realize them, or glosses over them as no big deal. 

Matt could have, if he wanted, have tried to reconcile the actions that were racially insensitive with the person he suppodedly cared about, but understanding (as I assume a 29?-ish year old Black man must) that sometimes White people are blind to truths about race that are obvious to us, that in Rachael's case there appeared to have been more ignorance at work than malice, and that she appeared to be willing to make amends.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Ms Blue Jay]

The actions were racist.  Maybe Emmanuel was trying to be overly kind, and probably instructed to by the producers, in calling Rachel racially insensitive.  But attending an Antebellum party is a racist action in my opinion.

Nothing is accidental here.  A party has to be planned.  A guest list has to be made.  (And obviously some people need to be excluded).  Invitations must be sent out.  Decorations must be placed.  Costumes are purchased and worn, and again, planned.  Research had to be done or else:  How would they know what to call the party?  How would they know where to hold it? And how would they know what costumes to wear?    It is such a planned, elaborate, and deliberate activity and it is not an accident.  Selfies and posed, group photos were taken and posted with pride.  It's not like Rachel just stepped into a random party and thought "What's this?"  

It's far more than racially sensitive in my opinion.  When you have to go through like 20 steps to do something, you damn well want to do it.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, EllenB said:

 

 As a white person, I can't think of an equivalent situation. Maybe if I knew someone who had referred to my family, or people like my family, as trash, I could still perhaps work with that person and be cordial, but they would not be my friend and I would no longer have respect for them.

I get that. As a white person I really have nothing comparable, and anything I could come up with wouldn't be a fair or an equivalent example. 

The closest I came up with was if I'd later learned that the man I chose had engaged in extremely misogynistic behavior a year or so before I met him. Not just a post or two, or a one off situation, but a pattern of behaviors that I'd normally consider damaging and hurtful and that i, personally, would stay far away from. And then, on top of everything else, to have to explain to him WHY his support of these things was hurtful. 

Yeah, not sure I could do it. If I loved him then a part of me would WANT to say it was herd mentality, or youthful ignorance, or insensitivity, banter, or even just SM trolling to get a rise. The other part of me, though, would have trouble looking at him the same because I HAVE dated misogynistic men in the past and it was hell. Definitely not something I'd want to go through again. 

IMO the ATFR did a disservice by only referencing the one photo-and you couldn't even see what she was wearing in that one. It made it sound like all of this was over just one IG picture and "party" when it wasn't. 

Rachel wasn't really "hiding" anything because her SM is public. Since Matt wouldn't have had the chance to cyberstalk her before getting serious, though, I can see how it blindsided him.  Imo that's another disservice the show does to these contestants. If they really wanted them to find true live then they'd give them a better rounded version of their potential mates. Remember when the final 2 used to go to the person's house? If I am considering marrying someone then I need way more info: what's their online persona like, how do they interact with people outside of the show bubble, how clean is their bathroom, what are their friends like, what are some of their favorite places in their community...But then this stopped being about finding love a while ago. Hell, I'm not even convinced that Matt liked ANY of his women. If he did have an amazing connection with someone then I didn't see it. Most of the time was spent on drama.

[Artsda]

That was an awkward show, the whole thing didn't feel like After the final rose. I guess it's good Chris didn't do it, but I think having someone host who had no idea how to deal with this situation added to how bad it was.

I feel like Matt got his out/exit. He didn't want to propose to begin with and now he didn't have to continue the relationship. He was bland and not into it from the start. So it being a waste of a season not surprised.

Rachael having to go on the show and be belittled and talked down to about how she needs educating i also found unnecessary. She was what, an 18 year old college kid? Went to a party who thinks of the social consequences when you're that age and invited to a party?  

Good for answering the question about how  if she worried about the pictures getting out and Matt finding out with she didn't think of it at all.  Because who would? Did the 2 men sitting next to her never make any decisions at that age that weren't perfect? This escalated to epic proportions due to the current climate and Rachel gets kudos to sit through that and with Matt dramatic pausing like he's so hurt when he never once brought up race as a conversation with her during the show. That's on him and kind of shows how he didn't intend seriously to end this season engaged or was into the process. 

What ever his intentions were to be on the show, it wasn't to find love.

 

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

The actions were racist.  Maybe Emmanuel was trying to be overly kind, and probably instructed to by the producers, in calling Rachel racially insensitive.  But attending an Antebellum party is a racist action in my opinion.

Nothing is accidental here.  A party has to be planned.  A guest list has to be made.  (And obviously some people need to be excluded).  Invitations must be sent out.  Decorations must be placed.  Costumes are purchased and worn, and again, planned.  Research had to be done or else:  How would they know what to call the party?  How would they know where to hold it? And how would they know what costumes to wear?    It is such a planned, elaborate, and deliberate activity and it is not an accident.  Selfies and posed, group photos were taken and posted with pride.  It's not like Rachel just stepped into a random party and thought "What's this?"  

It's far more than racially sensitive in my opinion.  When you have to go through like 20 steps to do something, you damn well want to do it.

Today is St Patrick's Day and people will be planning parties with Irish themes, shamrocks  and green beer.   Some will go so far as to touch on the history of Ireland.  If someone attends those parties does it mean they simply don't care about all the people who died during the potato famine?  Are they ignorant of the oppressive and heartless way the British treated the Irish at that time?

Someone mentioned "Regency" parties with everyone dressed in Empire waisted dresses and talking like Jane Austen characters, yet England held entire island nations as enslaved people at that time.  The history of any country has many parts, some of them shameful.  Dressing like a certain period of fashion and having a party does not mean you approve of everything that happened during that period.  If you go to a 50's party and wear bobby socks and circle skirts does it mean you approve of the lack of civil rights prevalent at that time?  The restrictions on women?  Black entertainers having to stay in segregated hotels?

I definitely think Racheal was being stupid and insensitive to attend those parties in view of the controversy around them at that time but I don't see it as an act of hatred.  I doubt there was research beyond how to set your hair in ringlets and I expect she was thinking about what boy she liked at the time and how cute she wanted to look for him.  Racially insensitive?  Yes.  Racist?  No.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by JudyObscure

[Lamb18]

I haven't read any posts yet, just watched last night, but I really liked Emmanuel Acho as a host. What I noticed the most is how kind he was to everybody, even Rachael, who he could have been tough on if he wanted.

I got the impression that he really liked Michelle. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up on the show to be a suitor, ha ha. Actually if Chris Harrison is replaced I think Mr. Acho would be a good replacement. He can ask the hard questions kindly and show grace. In the past few seasons I've felt like the whole franchise, and Harrison, have found amusement in humiliating and poking fun at the contestants.  When I first started watching (Matt from London's season) it seemed like the contestants themselves would cause the drama just by personality clashes and it was more of a just film the action and edit. Now it's more like let's create situations that will make the contestants look stupid or humiliated when watching back because we think it's funny to poke fun at them as a show. And I don't think Mr. Acho would fly with that kind of attitude.

I could see Rachael has lost weight since filming ended.  I felt she was sincere in what she said and the emotion she was showing, and very honest when she said she didn't even think about the pictures of her at the antebellum party. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

People keep saying Rachael was 18 - I think they're mixing it up with the fact that it took place in 2018.  Rachael was in her 20s.

And using phrases like "She just wanted to look cute for a boy" infantilizes her.  She was an adult, and I hope she'd be only romantically interested in men, not boys at that age.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[rebel2u]

IMO, Rachael was no more racially/culturally insensitive than Prince Harry who, at age 20, went to a costume party dressed as a Nazi, or Rihanna, who has dressed up like the Pope for a gala in 2018, or Cardi B, who referred to her daughter as having "ch*nky eyes", or Nick Cannon, who once dressed up in whiteface and recently was fired from (but later reinstated to) a show for making anti-Semitic comments on his podcast; all were insensitive either to race or creed and all are still held in good standing.  Rachael,  a non-celebrity, is an easy target and everyone is happy to pile on.  

 

[TVMovieBuff]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I think it can both be true that Rachael's past actions (of which, as has been said, there were more than just the one incident mentioned on the show) are a "legitimate" cause for a breakup, *and* that Matt never intended to be in a committed relationship with Rachael and was therefore not motivated to work through any problems with her.

I can put it even more baldly: Matt "chose" Rachael at the end because it would have been just too much to dump them both, after the whole season and the Fantasy Suite antics. The antebellum party reveal gave him a solid out. He could dump Rachael and have it appear to be the most noble of reasons. 

He may have been profoundly turned off by Rachael at that party, but it doesn't even have to get that far. Now he can bore many women with stories of how destroyed he is by his parents divorce and his mother's pain.

[Alexander Pope]

On 3/16/2021 at 6:45 AM, bosawks said:

I don't think there is any thing wrong with either Matt deciding to give it a shot or to get while the getting was good.

Though, Matt does look he might need some therapy after this.

 

I think Matt needed therapy before this!!! A forced conversation with his dad on national TV didn't resolve his issues, it added to them.  And his mom is even more possessive than Barb Weber, for sadder reasons!

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Today is St Patrick's Day and people will be planning parties with Irish themes, shamrocks  and green beer.   Some will go so far as to touch on the history of Ireland.  If someone attends those parties does it mean they simply don't care about all the people who died during the potato famine?  Are they ignorant of the oppressive and heartless way the British treated the Irish at that time?

Someone mentioned "Regency" parties with everyone dressed in Empire waisted dresses and talking like Jane Austen characters, yet England held entire island nations as enslaved people at that time.  The history of any country has many parts, some of them shameful.  Dressing like a certain period of fashion and having a party does not mean you approve of everything that happened during that period.  If you go to a 50's party and wear bobby socks and circle skirts does it mean you approve of the lack of civil rights prevalent at that time?  The restrictions on women?  Black entertainers having to stay in segregated hotels?

These are not particularly good analogies. Celebrating at an antebellum party inherently brings up slavery and therefore racism in a way that is nothing like the strained notion of St. Patrick's Day bringing up the potato famine or British oppression. There is no one (AFAIK) who is pointing out that this false concern that St. Patrick's Day brings to mind the potato famine or British occupation. 

Yes, it's possible to have a 50s theme party and be ignorant that it could reasonably be seeing as nostalgia for the pre-civil rights era. But once it is pointed out to you that glorification of that era might gloss over the racism and sexism of that era, you're presented with a choice: accept that criticism and change or reject that criticism and stay the same. 

[tinkerbell]

10 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

The actions were racist.  Maybe Emmanuel was trying to be overly kind, and probably instructed to by the producers, in calling Rachel racially insensitive.  But attending an Antebellum party is a racist action in my opinion.

Nothing is accidental here.  A party has to be planned.  A guest list has to be made.  (And obviously some people need to be excluded).  Invitations must be sent out.  Decorations must be placed.  Costumes are purchased and worn, and again, planned.  Research had to be done or else:  How would they know what to call the party?  How would they know where to hold it? And how would they know what costumes to wear?    It is such a planned, elaborate, and deliberate activity and it is not an accident.  Selfies and posed, group photos were taken and posted with pride.  It's not like Rachel just stepped into a random party and thought "What's this?"  

It's far more than racially sensitive in my opinion.  When you have to go through like 20 steps to do something, you damn well want to do it.

Not to defend Rachael, but it was a sorority event, one that was a tradition.   The national sorority said that chapters had to stop having Antebellum or "Old South"  themed parties, so her sorority chapter just changed the name to something like "Rose party".   It wasn't like they just decided that this would be a good theme - it was a tradition that they did every year. I"m sure there's a sorority yearbook somewhere documenting all the photos from each year.  

 TO me, it's like a lot of southern people who display the confederate flag, and consider it part of their "Southern"  identity, without thinking through what it actually means.  Or loyal supporters of sports teams who are being pressured to change their names from racist-themed names.  I'm not saying it's right, just that sometimes people accept a behavior because its a "tradition", and they don't want to think things through or make a fuss.  I am positive that if any sorority member had voiced an objection that the party could be seen as racist, she would have been shouted down.  To a white person in that environment, it's easy to dismiss it as a "fancy old-fashioned dress up Ball". 

[LakeGal]

The show edited out parts that Ocho is saying he wishes had been telecast.  They had Michele and Rachael sitting on the couch together talking.  I have seen brief clips on TV of it.  It ended in a hug between them.  I wonder why they never showed that part.  

[After7Only]

2 hours ago, rebel2u said:

IMO, Rachael was no more racially/culturally insensitive than Prince Harry who, at age 20, went to a costume party dressed as a Nazi, or Rihanna, who has dressed up like the Pope for a gala in 2018, or Cardi B, who referred to her daughter as having "ch*nky eyes", or Nick Cannon, who once dressed up in whiteface and recently was fired from (but later reinstated to) a show for making anti-Semitic comments on his podcast; all were insensitive either to race or creed and all are still held in good standing.  Rachael,  a non-celebrity, is an easy target and everyone is happy to pile on.  

 

I don't think people are piling on the Rachael.  They are treating her pretty much like they did the other people named.  They were all criticized for their actions and then people moved on (either continued to support the person or didn't)   She's on a reality show, so that makes her a "celebrity". .  I don't think Rachael will lack for opportunities because of this, especially since she does generally seem sorry for her actions.   People will move on...

29 minutes ago, tinkerbell said:

TO me, it's like a lot of southern people who display the confederate flag, and consider it part of their "Southern"  identity, without thinking through what it actually means.

At this point everyone knows that many people see the confederate flag as a symbol of hate (and why).   Those who claim it's southern heritage to me just don't care that it is also a symbol of hate for a significant portion  of that same southern heritage they claims to be proud of.  The antebellum parties are similar.  Those who organized it and renamed it after their national organizations banned them, knew they were offensive to some.  They just felt their right to dress up in frilly dresses and parasols was more important.  

[Arkay]

2 hours ago, rebel2u said:

IMO, Rachael was no more racially/culturally insensitive than Prince Harry who, at age 20, went to a costume party dressed as a Nazi, or Rihanna, who has dressed up like the Pope for a gala in 2018, or Cardi B, who referred to her daughter as having "ch*nky eyes", or Nick Cannon, who once dressed up in whiteface and recently was fired from (but later reinstated to) a show for making anti-Semitic comments on his podcast; all were insensitive either to race or creed and all are still held in good standing.  Rachael,  a non-celebrity, is an easy target and everyone is happy to pile on.  

 

Interesting, because I had been thinking of Harry wearing a Nazi costume with a swastika armband, and why that didn't disturb Meghan Markle. Especially since her first husband was Jewish. Thinking through this Rachael stuff, I was imagining how I, as a Jewish person, would feel if I found out that "my person" had worn a swastika to a party. They would be DEAD to me right then and forever after. But I think what Rachael did was less blatant because there were no overt symbols of hatred at her party, I presume. If they had an antebellum party with a black dummy hanging from a tree---that would equate to me with someone wearing a Nazi armband. There is no ignorance then of what that "party" would mean. 

Would I forgive "my person" (I hate that phrase) if they had German heritage and wore lederhosen at a German-themed party? Yes. My childhood best friend is German. If the person wore a WW II era German uniform, without a swastika? I'm not sure. Maybe that's how Matt feels. 

I think it's a matter of degree in what is being symbolized and how overt it is, and what the person I think I love understood the party to represent. 

[DA6988]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

These are not particularly good analogies. Celebrating at an antebellum party inherently brings up slavery and therefore racism in a way that is nothing like the strained notion of St. Patrick's Day bringing up the potato famine or British oppression. There is no one (AFAIK) who is pointing out that this false concern that St. Patrick's Day brings to mind the potato famine or British occupation. 

Yes, it's possible to have a 50s theme party and be ignorant that it could reasonably be seeing as nostalgia for the pre-civil rights era. But once it is pointed out to you that glorification of that era might gloss over the racism and sexism of that era, you're presented with a choice: accept that criticism and change or reject that criticism and stay the same. 

Agree with this and interestingly enough this seems to be exactly what Rachel is doing. This was pointed out to her and she’s accepting that criticism. Fans of her or fans of the show who still see nothing wrong with the glorification of that era who don’t see how it glosses over racism or sexism are the ones who can’t seem to accept the criticism (or apparently think that we shouldn’t talk about things like this at all otherwise the person isn’t being treated fairly). I don’t even understand how potato famine = slavery in ANY analogy. 

[Recyclorette]

12 minutes ago, LakeGal said:

The show edited out parts that Ocho is saying he wishes had been telecast.  They had Michele and Rachael sitting on the couch together talking.  I have seen brief clips on TV of it.  It ended in a hug between them.  I wonder why they never showed that part.  

This is interesting.  If they had shown the discussion and hug between Michelle and Rachael, I have a feeling it would have been criticized as frivolous and shallow and an attempt to dismiss the seriousness of the show.  I just saw an IG meme saying there is no healing without accountability and forgiveness.   It made me wonder about the spot this franchise is in and what WOULD lead to forgiveness.  Unfortunately, big change does not happen quickly.  If the attempts at accountability and change are constantly criticized and rejected, how will we ever get there?

[Stats Queen]

23 minutes ago, Recyclorette said:

It made me wonder about the spot this franchise is in and what WOULD lead to forgiveness.  Unfortunately, big change does not happen quickly.  If the attempts at accountability and change are constantly criticized and rejected, how will we ever get there?

Very well said. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

33 minutes ago, Recyclorette said:

This is interesting.  If they had shown the discussion and hug between Michelle and Rachael, I have a feeling it would have been criticized as frivolous and shallow and an attempt to dismiss the seriousness of the show.  I just saw an IG meme saying there is no healing without accountability and forgiveness.   It made me wonder about the spot this franchise is in and what WOULD lead to forgiveness.  Unfortunately, big change does not happen quickly.  If the attempts at accountability and change are constantly criticized and rejected, how will we ever get there?

I've not seen any criticism of attempts at accountability and change.  Rejection, yes, Matt is rejecting Rachael.  That is his right.  

[Boo Boo]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Today is St Patrick's Day and people will be planning parties with Irish themes, shamrocks  and green beer.   Some will go so far as to touch on the history of Ireland.  If someone attends those parties does it mean they simply don't care about all the people who died during the potato famine?  Are they ignorant of the oppressive and heartless way the British treated the Irish at that time?

Someone mentioned "Regency" parties with everyone dressed in Empire waisted dresses and talking like Jane Austen characters, yet England held entire island nations as enslaved people at that time.  The history of any country has many parts, some of them shameful.  Dressing like a certain period of fashion and having a party does not mean you approve of everything that happened during that period.  If you go to a 50's party and wear bobby socks and circle skirts does it mean you approve of the lack of civil rights prevalent at that time?  The restrictions on women?  Black entertainers having to stay in segregated hotels?

I definitely think Racheal was being stupid and insensitive to attend those parties in view of the controversy around them at that time but I don't see it as an act of hatred.  I doubt there was research beyond how to set your hair in ringlets and I expect she was thinking about what boy she liked at the time and how cute she wanted to look for him.  Racially insensitive?  Yes.  Racist?  No.

 

I agree 100%.  I think this has more to do with playing dress-up then being a skinhead.    And shit, Lady Antebellum changed their names to Lady A in late 2020.  The racial sensitivities to celebrating Antebellum and playing dress up is really in the last year come to a head.  Ryan Reynolds and his wife in 2020 apologized about their Antebellum plantation wedding.  I can see college aged kids in 2018 not realizing how insensitive this is, especially if you live in an area that celebrates Antebellum period with plantation parties.   

Now, this Rachel apparently she made fun of, bullied interracial couples in high school.   That's a hell of a lot more overtly racist to me and I don't understand why that isn't a bigger issue for her unless it's just bc there's no photographic proof.  

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Boo Boo

[Recyclorette]

22 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I've not seen any criticism of attempts at accountability and change.  Rejection, yes, Matt is rejecting Rachael.  That is his right.  

I was thinking back to when Matt was announced as the bachelor and there was criticism of how it was not done the right way, etc.  Also, many of the apologies and attempts at self education seem to be discounted or dismissed in many comments on this board.  My comment was about what possible solutions would be acceptable for healing; I was not criticizing Matt at all.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Recyclorette

[Back Atcha]

14 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

I can see college aged kids in 2018 not realizing how insensitive this is, especially if you live in an area that celebrates Antebellum period with plantation parties.   

EXACTLY, Boo Boo.  I'm 80yrs old, a native of Phoenix, Arizona, and it's clear to me.  It's sad there are sthose who continue to condemn her lack of "self-education."   I wonder how many of the girls (and they're very young) in the sorority photo worry every day that THEY will be blasted on social media--and who knows when.  "Social media" like this, where it's just too easy to spout off.

[Back Atcha]

5 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

In the past few seasons I've felt like the whole franchise, and Harrison, have found amusement in humiliating and poking fun at the contestants. 

Chris Harrison got carried away with his "fame," especially with more power as a producer/executive producer.  This "franchise" became too much HIM.  It's time for a revamp of everything...and ABC can find a different "nation" for Mr. Harrison's reign. 

[Call Me Charlie]

I didn't watch the full episode of the Finale but just watched a clip of Rachael meeting Matt's brother and mom, and boy was that stiff! Mom and brother asked Rachael very scripted questions and neither of indicated any concerns about race (not in the 4-minute clip I watched anyway). I've had job interviews more natural and genuine than those conversations. Between this and all the deleted scenes it looks like the producers really, really screwed this all up all the way around from the shallow basic of making the show entertaining to the deepness of having the first black Bachelor. This didn't happen overnight - the show has been going downhill for years - but this season in particular showed how cowardly and controlling the producers have become. They just weren't up for the task.

Regarding Matt's breaking up with Rachael, after looking more into Rachael's social media past, there should be no question why he would want to cut her off cold. I tend to look at everything through the lens of a parent and if my college-age children kept the company that Rachael did and liked and followed the posts that Rachael did, I'd be deeply disappointed in them, question my own parenting, and do whatever I can to help them understand why I felt that way. That's what a parent would do. A boyfriend or girlfriend? Nope. Sometimes love isn't enough and starting off a relationship with this level of baggage is never a good idea. 

All in all, I'm glad for both Rachael and Matt in that they both have the opportunity to confront things about themselves they would otherwise have spent a lifetime avoiding. They have Chris Harrison and the inept producers for that, so all's well that ends well I guess. 

These are some examples of Rachael's social media activity in case anyone missed it: 

https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/2259898/bachelor-rachael-kirkconnell-racist-cultural-appropriation-matt-james-fans/

https://www.distractify.com/p/rachael-the-bachelor-trump-supporter

Edited March 17, 2021 by Call Me Charlie

[Boo Boo]

5 minutes ago, Call Me Charlie said:

I didn't watch the full episode of the Finale but just watched a clip of Rachael meeting Matt's brother and mom, and boy was that stiff! Mom and brother asked Rachael very scripted questions and neither of indicated any concerns about race (not in the 4-minute clip I watched anyway). I've had job interviews more natural and genuine than those conversations. Between this and all the deleted scenes it looks like the producers really, really screwed this all up all the way around from the shallow basic of making the show entertaining to the deepness of having the first black Bachelor. This didn't happen overnight - the show has been going downhill for years - but this season in particular showed how cowardly and controlling the producers have become. They always dulled the personalities of everyone involved, but never so much as they did in this season, which just so happened to star the first black Bachelor. They just weren't up for the task.

Regarding Matt's breaking up with Rachael, after looking more into Rachael's social media past, there should be no question why he would want to cut her off cold. I tend to look at everything through the lens of a parent and if my college-age children kept the company that Rachael did and liked and followed the posts that Rachael did, I'd be deeply disappointed in them, question my own parenting, and do whatever I can to help them understand why I felt that way. That's what a parent would do. A boyfriend or girlfriend? Nope. Sometimes love isn't enough and starting off a relationship with this level of baggage is never a good idea. 

All in all, I'm glad for both Rachael and Matt in that they both have the opportunity to confront things about themselves they would otherwise have spent a lifetime avoiding. They have Chris Harrison and the inept producers for that, so all's well that ends well I guess. 

These are some examples of Rachael's social media activity in case anyone missed it: 

https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/2259898/bachelor-rachael-kirkconnell-racist-cultural-appropriation-matt-james-fans/

https://www.distractify.com/p/rachael-the-bachelor-trump-supporter

 

Yeah, those "likes" are bad combined with the bullying of a high school mate for liking black guys.  To me, that's so overt and makes so much more sense for her to be dragged much more over.  

Did I miss them talking about the liked photos and bullying a high school mate?  Or just over the Antebellum party?  I feel like they purposefully muted the other stuff which is more overt, but maybe I just didn't pay enough attention.

 

   

[Just Carol]

2 hours ago, LakeGal said:

The show edited out parts that Ocho is saying he wishes had been telecast.  They had Michele and Rachael sitting on the couch together talking.  I have seen brief clips on TV of it.  It ended in a hug between them.  I wonder why they never showed that part.  

But yet TPTB chose to use the clip of EA saying, "How about a final embrace?"  Its use was clearly intended to embarrass.

 

[Boo Boo]

On 3/16/2021 at 1:04 AM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Matt: There were numerous African-American women on your season, all of whom would have understood your experience as a minority in America. You didn't pick any of them. Instead, you picked a white woman five years your junior, then dumped her because she didn't understand your very-different life experiences? Whatever, dude. You're a cad.

Ha, I thought the same thing.  

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Boo Boo said:

Did I miss them talking about the liked photos and bullying a high school mate?  Or just over the Antebellum party?  I feel like they purposefully muted the other stuff which is more overt, but maybe I just didn't pay enough attention.   

You're right, they focused solely on the party and even then they showed only 1 picture that was basically just the faces of Rachael and her friends. I think it’s clear they did this in order to downplay the whole thing and so that there would be room for people to say ‘Oh, it’s not that bad. I feel sorry for Rachael.’ It seemed to me like they even basically threw Matt under the bus for Rachael actually because now he kinda looks bad for not sticking by to teach her, a 24 year old woman living in 2021, how to not be a racist.

That being said though, for some reason I actually do think Rachael might truly learn and grow from this. She is still fairly young and I’d venture to say that her behaviors and attitudes were likely learned from her upbringing and not necessarily her true self. But who knows, she actually said that she couldn’t blame her upbringing or education. Still, I’m choosing to believe she was just ignorant and parroting the behaviors of others and that she will educate herself now and become a better person lol.

[ByTor]

As far as I know, neither, Harry, Meghan, nor the band formerly known as Lady Antebellum were on The Bachelor. Several posts have been removed. Please stay on topic.

[ECM1231]

On 3/16/2021 at 2:45 PM, chocolatine said:

Juan Pablo is Venezuelan, so there's already been a Latino lead. No Asian leads so far; I'd like to see the show change that by casting the adorable Dr. Joe as the next Bachelor.

YES!!!!!

[DEL901]

Why did they leave this out.... if it was time, the final episode could have cut out most of Matt’s moping snd fit this in, instead.  
https://people.com/tv/emmanuel-acho-reveals-favorite-after-the-final-rose-moment-never-aired/

[Ms Blue Jay]

Maybe because Matt is The Bachelor.  Michelle will have an entire season to herself this fall.  

I appreciated getting Matt's perspective.  That's why I tuned in.

[rebel2u]

Well, I'm out.   I wrote a post mentioning Harry, Rihanna, Cardi B and Nick Cannon, none of whom were on The Bachelor/ette, so I'm off topic. (Sorry, ByTor!)  I've watched every bachelor/ette season except the first; I didn't even know that one was on until it was over.  It's been fun but has gotten, I guess political, maybe, is the word?--which is fine, but I want fun.  I was finishing out this season, so... It's been a (mostly) great time and I hope Katie's and Michelle's seasons are everything they want them to be.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

 It seemed to me like they even basically threw Matt under the bus for Rachael actually because now he kinda looks bad for not sticking by to teach her, a 24 year old woman living in 2021, how to not be a racist.

I don't know if they intentionally threw him under the bus but I do think they wanted their cake and to eat it too.  They knew Rachael had been getting hate on social media for her past activities/social media activity.  They didn't want to pile on so they chose to limit what was discussed.  They softened the fall for her and that blew back on Matt.

But the reality is, he'd probably still be criticized for causing a white woman's tears even if they had gone further with her past activity.

[Recyclorette]

52 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

Why did they leave this out.... if it was time, the final episode could have cut out most of Matt’s moping snd fit this in, instead.  
https://people.com/tv/emmanuel-acho-reveals-favorite-after-the-final-rose-moment-never-aired/

Emmanuel Acho is a gift in all this.  During ATFR, he taught us the crucial difference between racism and ignorance/racial insensitivity and he did it with compassion and grace.  By releasing this video of the interaction between Michelle and Rachael, which he says is his favorite moment from the show, he shows us how the healing begins.  The two women were willing to sit down together, have an honest discussion, and practice forgiveness.  Well done!

[Bluesky]

5 hours ago, Back Atcha said:

EXACTLY, Boo Boo.  I'm 80yrs old, a native of Phoenix, Arizona, and it's clear to me.  It's sad there are sthose who continue to condemn her lack of "self-education."   I wonder how many of the girls (and they're very young) in the sorority photo worry every day that THEY will be blasted on social media--and who knows when.  "Social media" like this, where it's just too easy to spout off.

She shouldn’t have to self educate.  She went to public school where they are supposed to teach American history.  Living in the south it’s a crime that they are in college and don’t seem to know their own history.  

And as much as Rachael claims she didn’t know any better and maybe she didn’t, they were plenty of racists at that party who knew exactly what was up.   
 

[Recyclorette]

17 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

She shouldn’t have to self educate.  She went to public school where they are supposed to teach American history.  Living in the south it’s a crime that they are in college and don’t seem to know their own history.  

 

You're right, no one should HAVE to self educate, but unless a state has an assessment test in place to keep every school on the same track, you could go to two different schools in the same city/town and learn two different things.  One American History teacher may spend a significant amount of time on the issue of slavery, while another may spend hardly any.  And if the recent political attempt to teach "patriotic education" and establish a  "National Garden of American Heroes" in response to the removal of oppressive statues and monuments is any indication of our future in America, God help us.  And now we have an entire generation of children who witnessed a Confederate flag in the White House.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Recyclorette

[b2H]

On 3/16/2021 at 3:20 PM, catrice2 said:

Where is the "grace" for Matt? he was the person humiliated and hurt. 

Yes, he was.  But at the same time, for me, his position that he could not stay with Rachael for his stated reason that she needed to do the work and he couldn’t be there while she did it showed that, again for me, he is nothing but an a$$hole.  

For as much as he said he loved her, it was beyond him to stand by her and support her while she made what appears to be genuine effort to do the work?  Had she demonstrated any other crime or problem, other than the photos, with respect to racial relations?  Could any of us stand up to that level of scrutiny in our lives?  I am not asking him to forgive her, not by a long shot, but geez, just give her some support, however little that might be.  Cutting her off seems pretty brutal.

I think other posters here are right.  He needed a reason not to continue.  This wasn’t a reason that would typically present itself, but it was convenient.  I maintain what I said earlier:  this guy needs months, if not years, of therapy.  His issues are a lot greater than Rachael’s and, if she needs to do the work, the. He needs to also do his work, exponentially more so than she does.

ETA:  I think him sticking by her while she does the work would have helped move the ball forward far better than him kicking her to the curb and telling her to deal with it on her own.  Support would have been welcome.

Edited March 18, 2021 by b2H
One more thing

[b2H]

On 3/16/2021 at 4:02 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm glad they finally had a Black Bachelor.  Way too late in my opinion.  I love Matt.  Loved him on the show, love him now.  I hope that the show won't use the "drama" of this season (aka the unfortunate reality of finding out that you're dating a racist person) as a reason against inviting Black men to lead the franchise in future.  

I would love if this would just lead to better background checks and vetting of ALL the contestants, not just the ones they think might win or might cause the best drama.  Not just this season, but probably over the last several years, there have been problematic contestants that were revealed, hiding in plain sight (via social media), not to mention psychological evaluations.

This is a very much wished for piece of the re-tooling this show needs to do.

And I am very much concerned, though I haven’t been following too closely, that Fleiss appears to be very silent in all of this.  If the ratings have been good, he has no reason to speak up.  He is laughing all the way to the bank.

[DA6988]

14 minutes ago, b2H said:

Yes, he was.  But at the same time, for me, his position that he could not stay with Rachael for his stated reason that she needed to do the work and he couldn’t be there while she did it showed that, again for me, he is nothing but an a$$hole.  

For as much as he said he loved her, it was beyond him to stand by her and support her while she made what appears to be genuine effort to do the work?  Had she demonstrated any other crime or problem, other than the photos, with respect to racial relations?  Could any of us stand up to that level of scrutiny in our lives?  I am not asking him to forgive her, not by a long shot, but geez, just give her some support, however little that might be.  Cutting her off seems pretty brutal.

I think other posters here are right.  He needed a reason not to continue.  This wasn’t a reason that would typically present itself, but it was convenient.  I maintain what I said earlier:  this guy needs months, if not years, of therapy.  His issues are a lot greater than Rachael’s and, if she needs to do the work, the. He needs to also do his work, exponentially more so than she does.

I agree that Matt has a lot of work to do to on himself because I believe he is still very much affected by his family situation. Whether you believe that Matt or Rachael have more work to do probably depends where on the spectrum you fall in terms of Rachael’s actions. That said, there were other aspects beyond the photo - I think they didn’t bring it into the situation because the photo is very clearly evidence whereas the other things were less ‘provable.’ We also don’t know what was said or not said in the conversations between Matt and Rachael to know whether other things really triggered him into making a decision. 
 

For all we know, they had multiple conversations and she might have said somethings that shined a light on other issues and he finally decided it wasn’t the type of relationship he wanted to be in. I’m in an interracial relationship and it can be deeply exhausted at times with my partner. And he’s never done/said anything on the level of Rachael. Ultimately we don’t know what those conversations looked like (and I think that’s fine - they can keep it private). 
 

I think multiple things can be true here - they both have work to do, they or he wasn’t actually that “in love”, and their breakup probably wasn’t just because of the photo and the photo/rumors probably made things harder than either of them wanted it to be.

[mittsigirl]

On 3/15/2021 at 8:19 PM, saber5055 said:

So did Acho just blow the Bachelorette reveal/big surprise? I kinda think so.

I can't see Matt with that disgusting thing on his face without thinking of that magnetic beard toy someone posted in the thread last week. It is Matt to a T.

LOL, I had a hard time concentrating on what they were saying because I was mesmerized by the shiny droplets of oil in his beard, waiting to see if they would start running down in small rivers as he was sweating, way too much beard oil! The beard looks like it's on the wrong face, so big and bushy for the size of his face.

[TVMovieBuff]

I just forgot to mention this. I loved the color on Rachael's fake nails on ATFR. The nails themselves were too perfect to be anything but fake, but the grey color was lovely. I had to wonder: what color is between black and white? Grey. 

If I found that color and put it on my nails, it would probably look like crap. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by TVMovieBuff

[LBS]

37 minutes ago, TVMovieBuff said:

 

I just forgot to mention this. I loved the color on Rachael's fake nails on ATFR. The nails themselves were too perfect to be anything but fake, but the grey color was lovely. I had to wonder: what color is between black and white? Grey. 

If I found that color and put it on my nails, it would probably look like crap. 

 

That’s usually my go to color and it looks great!  (I’m fish belly white 9 months out of the year and slight tan for 3 months if that helps)