S01.E05: Ladies Who Lunch

[princelina]

4 hours ago, Sun-Bun said:

My husband sat there watching Lisa and kept saying, “She looks just like the other stringy long-haired brunette one...but this one has a face that would look so much nicer with a layered bob or a shorter haircut.”
Actually, between us sitting there wondering why Lisa still insists on wearing that dated stringy hair a’la her twin Meredith, grimacing at Mary’s pitiful head mops, and laughing hysterically at Whitney’s dad in his Ric Ocasek/Ron Wood fright wig, we decided that this show features the worst hair on Bravo!

Funny that you say it about Lisa, because when they were showing the old pictures of Meredith I thought she looked so much better without that long, parted-in-the-middle ironed down Brady Girl hair 😄 

51 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

That HW whose son insists on being the 5th or 7th HW...no, just no.  What is it with these kids that want a clothing line, they are clueless, uneducated, never seem to have worked in the industry (folding jeans at the Gap does not count), of all of the designing teens I have never seen any of their designs anywhere and they are usually not very interesting "fashions."

Ugh he's the worst.  I just want to rub that lipstick right off of his stupid face and then shove the towel in his mouth so he can't talk.  He should team up with "Amelia Gray" Hamlin and her sister - apparently they are "designers" and "models" too.  Stay in Akron, dad!  Nothing to see here!

[Disfan5]

I just love that I can come here and and see that people have already mentioned the things I noticed...

The Grusband's eyebrows, Whitney's talking head outfits, the no seatbelts, the lack of bed skirt at Meredith's house, the bad hair, Jen being so dressed up for an unknown reason....

I feel validated. 

[AryasMum]

18 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

At the end of the episode, Mary said something to Heather that Jen is not used to her color, and I think Mary is at least partially right.  I think Jen has a major issue with Mary’s race.  Jen expects Mary to act in lockstep with Jen’s expectations of what a minority should be.  By barking at Mary, “you’re black!” Jen meant “act black!” which is racist.  There is no other way that it could reasonably be interpreted in the context in which it was used IMO.  It doesn’t even matter if Jen doesn’t like Mary the person; then attack Mary the person, don’t go for her race.  

On Real Housewives of Dallas, one white cast member was raked over the coals and ultimately lost her job because she said “chirpy Mexican” and some other non sequiturs about another white cast member of Mexican descent.  Here we have a woman who is Asian telling a woman who is black that she ought to act a certain way and she somehow has moral authority to do this?  I have no idea why.  Because Jen’s husband is black?  No dice.  How about...each individual gets to act in the way their conscience dictates, and if someone is opposed to someone else’s actions, or the content of their character, take it up with the individual and not their entire race to advance an argument?

I realized Jen is the biggest race-baiter and colorist that’s come around reality TV in a long time.  I forgot all about this until now, but last episode she said she was going to eat because “I’m brown; we eat.”  That’s a slippery slope to start down.  Why bring billions of people into it?  In referring to herself as “brown,” I suspect she is referring to her Tongan background (as I have never heard a Chinese person called “brown”) so why not just say that if she really feels there’s a cultural component to her appetite?  Or say that she eats because she’s hungry?  Why bring background into it at all?  Who made her the arbiter of all people who are brown?  

I get it that Mary isn’t a popular cast member, but that doesn’t excuse or offset Jen’s stereotyping and racism.  I wonder if Jen will be called on this at all at the reunion, or if she’s going to get a pass for it.  I have a strong prediction that nothing will be made of it.  Or Andy will just grin and let her out of it, because he picks winners and losers on these shows.  I’d be happy to be wrong, but similar shit recently happened—or didn’t happen, rather—on RHNYC, so the writing is pretty much on the wall.  

I strongly disagree. I didn’t interpret Jen’s comment at all the same way. Jen told a black woman, who underwent lengthy surgery to appear more euro-centric, including lightening her skin, used multiple slurs weaponized against the black community for decades, and who’d previously stated that black people are violent and to be avoided. 
 

Jen was simply saying, yo - you’re black. Jen did not say, or even imply IMO, that Mary should “act black”.   There is absolutely every way that remark can be reasonably interpreted other than the way you have.
 

Jen did what I hope any wife, mother, aunt of a black person would do - get offended by small minded, bigoted words. I was offended and I only have POC in my extended family. If I were Jen, Mary would have given more bug-eyed, pearl-clutching, fake shock at my words. 
 

If anything is called out at the reunion, it better be the fact that Mary is a cult leader who exploits and impoverishes her parishioners. 

[AryasMum]

9 hours ago, SweetieDarling said:

Mary and Jen both have issues listening:

Jen did NOT call Mary a "grandpa motherfucker", she said she fucked her grandpa.

And it's NOT the black people in front of the 7-11 that prevent Mary from going in, It's the fact that it's a convenience store, and she doesn't go into convenience stores -I would love to hear her excuse for that one.

They don't even know what they're mad/arguing about

I think Mary said that for her TH. She did not deny what Jen said, which was Mary will not enter a 7/11 if black people are present.  

[Keywestclubkid]

17 minutes ago, AryasMum said:

I think Mary said that for her TH. She did not deny what Jen said, which was Mary will not enter a 7/11 if black people are present.  

yea she said it to Marys face.. you said you wouldn't go into a seven eleven if black people were outside .....Mary didn't deny saying it 

[Baltimore Betty]

20 minutes ago, AryasMum said:

I think Mary said that for her TH. She did not deny what Jen said, which was Mary will not enter a 7/11 if black people are present.  

I will not go in to a 7-11 because of bad lighting, that is the real crime here.

[Keywestclubkid]

13 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I will not go in to a 7-11 because of bad lighting, that is the real crime here.

I used to love me a nice slush puppie from the 7/11

Edited December 11, 2020 by Keywestclubkid

[LibertarianSlut]

15 minutes ago, AryasMum said:

a black woman, who underwent lengthy surgery to appear more euro-centric

That’s her prerogative.  I’m not sure why it’s being given a pejorative spin.  Strikes me as quite disempowering.  

As far as the cast goes, I only go by what’s on the show.  I’m not bringing extrinsic evidence of what they have allegedly done in the past into my argument.  

18 minutes ago, AryasMum said:

Jen was simply saying, yo - you’re black.

Ok, then if I interpreted it incorrectly, and it wasn’t Jen reminding Mary that Mary was black in an effort to get Mary to conform to Jen’s version of the correct words or behavior of the black race, what did it mean?  I would imagine that one who strongly disagreed with my interpretation would have an interpretation of one’s own.  

 

20 minutes ago, AryasMum said:

Jen did what I hope any wife, mother, aunt of a black person would do - get offended by small minded, bigoted words

This implies that there is a set of expectations for Mary’s behavior, by virtue of her being black, something with which I disagree.  Yet you are asserting Jen meant something other than this idea you’re advancing for black behavior when she told Mary “you’re black!” and I’m not sure what it was, in your opinion.  

Can you explain the small minded, bigoted words to which you’re referring?  Nothing was said on the show that I can gauge on my own—but I think we have a fundamental disagreement as to whether there is a prescription for how “any” person should act by virtue of their race, or their ties to a given race.  That is the definition of tribalism.  

I need to know exactly where you’re placing the goal posts before I can form a proper response.  

[AryasMum]

Just now, LibertarianSlut said:

That’s her prerogative.  I’m not sure why it’s being given a pejorative spin.  Strikes me as quite disempowering.  

As far as the cast goes, I only go by what’s on the show.  I’m not bringing extrinsic evidence of what they have allegedly done in the past into my argument.  

Ok, then if I interpreted it incorrectly, and it wasn’t Jen reminding Mary that Mary was black in an effort to get Mary to conform to Jen’s version of the correct words or behavior of the black race, what did it mean?  I would imagine that one who strongly disagreed with my interpretation would have an interpretation of one’s own.  

 

This implies that there is a set of expectations for Mary’s behavior, by virtue of her being black, something with which I disagree.  Yet you are asserting Jen meant something other than this idea you’re advancing for black behavior when she told Mary “you’re black!” and I’m not sure what it was, in your opinion.  

Can you explain the small minded, bigoted words to which you’re referring?  Nothing was said on the show that I can gauge on my own—but I think we have a fundamental disagreement as to whether there is a prescription for how “any” person should act by virtue of their race, or their ties to a given race.  That is the definition of tribalism.  

I need to know exactly where you’re placing the goal posts before I can form a proper response.  

Yes, I agree. We fundamentally disagree. I did give an interpretation of my own in the post you quoted.  I’m not sure how I’ve moved any goal posts, as this is our first interaction. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.  I did not specify what Mary should do or say due to her race, so please don’t imply I have done so. 
 

I’m not sure how you came to your conclusions, but I know bigotry when it’s as blatant as this. If one does not already know, one only needs to perform a cursory search for why Mary’s words are bigoted. Agree to disagree and I will comment no further. 

[sauce62]

Where do they find these people?? I live in Salt Lake and am embarrassed by this display of petty-ass behavior by just about everyone. Heather the linebacker seems like good people tho. All of their houses are very McMansion. There are some beautiful neighborhoods here, but they're not showing them. 

I also lol'd at Valter. Comedy gold. And the way Lisa pronounced Jesus: Jezoss. She's super annoying. 

I feel compelled to keep watching since its in my backyard but this show is trash.

[Keywestclubkid]

10 minutes ago, sauce62 said:

Where do they find these people?? 

 

[JAYJAY1979]

Jen and Mary are the reason why men should opt to stay single.

[SemiCharmedLife]

3 hours ago, AryasMum said:

I strongly disagree. I didn’t interpret Jen’s comment at all the same way. Jen told a black woman, who underwent lengthy surgery to appear more euro-centric, including lightening her skin, used multiple slurs weaponized against the black community for decades, and who’d previously stated that black people are violent and to be avoided. 
 

Jen was simply saying, yo - you’re black. Jen did not say, or even imply IMO, that Mary should “act black”.   There is absolutely every way that remark can be reasonably interpreted other than the way you have.
 

Jen did what I hope any wife, mother, aunt of a black person would do - get offended by small minded, bigoted words. I was offended and I only have POC in my extended family. If I were Jen, Mary would have given more bug-eyed, pearl-clutching, fake shock at my words. 
 

If anything is called out at the reunion, it better be the fact that Mary is a cult leader who exploits and impoverishes her parishioners. 

Thank you!  Jen is offended on behalf of her family.  Mary has already rewritten history in her talking heads by saying she has a problem with convenience stores, but if Jen is to be believed, Mary made a very bigoted comment for the reason she doesn't like them and deserves to be called out.  

 

On 12/9/2020 at 7:12 PM, Lassus said:

The only reason I don't like this fight is that nothing anyone says has actually made any sense.

I felt like my head was going to explode in an attempt to follow the "logic."  

On 12/9/2020 at 7:35 PM, Keywestclubkid said:

Ok I just caught this without watching the episodes before .. looks like I didn’t miss anything... Mary girl you are the actual Worst ... how you tricked your congregation into thinking you are the living embodiment of God and should be worshipped as so is really confusing me especially when they can watch this show 

Except, from what I read, I don't think her followers are watching...

[bichonblitz]

Ummm I'm confused. Isn't Mary black? 

I don't care about Whitney's drugged out dad. Is her own life so boring she has to use her mess of a dad as a storyline? 

I hope Meredith's husband finds a nice mid western lady from Ohio to love. 

Heather was the only one tolerable this episode. Nice that she has a decent relationship with her ex and he keeps her in the lifestyle she and her kids are accustomed to. I wouldn't mind seeing him on the show. 

[film noire]

3 hours ago, SemiCharmedLife said:

but if Jen is to be believed, Mary made a very bigoted comment 

Yes - and right before Jen cut her off,  Mary said this: 

"But when asked why she would say something like that, Mary exclaims, "Because to this day, I mean it! All Black people —"  And I will never forgive Jen for interrupting Mary and not letting her finish that sentence..."

https://ew.com/tv/recaps/real-housewives-season-1-episode-5/?amp=true

I found P/Asstor Mary's comments repugnant (especially coming from a so-called woman of god) but to be fair, I researched and did find dangerous Black people lurking in convenience stores:

 

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!! 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by film noire

[Baltimore Betty]

6 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

Heather was the only one tolerable this episode. Nice that she has a decent relationship with her ex and he keeps her in the lifestyle she and her kids are accustomed to. I wouldn't mind seeing him on the show. 

Heather said the church will shun you if you divorce, does that mean her husband (wasn't he Mormon royalty?) was shunned as well? So he is out of the church, forever? What if he makes a large donation? Churches and synagogues love to look the other way if there is a check involved.

9 hours ago, sauce62 said:

I also lol'd at Valter.

I bet that is also his face when he is pleased, lol.

[SweetieDarling]

Mary would be a fan favorite,... if this show were a sitcom. She'd be the crazy neighbor or co-worker, and we'd all be wondering where they come up with this stuff; The writers must be drinking/on drugs/having too much fun at work. 

She and her grusband (tm @sugarbaker design!) don't actually BELIEVE they are God on Earth, do they? I mean, she'd be wielding that like a weapon. The luncheon would have gone: "Don't you DARE call me a grandpa mfer! You can't talk to God like that! I damn you to hell! Now get out!..and leave your LV earbuds, I'll give them to someone more appropriate to brainwash with subliminal message transmissions."

 

[greeneyedscorpio]

4 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Heather said the church will shun you if you divorce, does that mean her husband (wasn't he Mormon royalty?) was shunned as well? So he is out of the church, forever? What if he makes a large donation? Churches and synagogues love to look the other way if there is a check involved.

*Here is my take as 53-year member who is on my way out*

As far as "shunning" after divorce, while shunning isn't a thing in the church officially, unfortunately, people who are out of the norm of the "typical" 2 married parents family do really feel out of place, as the church pounds "forever families" constantly and if you're divorced, you definitely don't fit that narrative anymore.  My sister is a divorced member and is still active  13 years after her divorce, but has often felt out of place.  

 There is no "shunning" policy a la Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses, but a lot of people in the church do distance themselves if you leave, for whatever reason.  Some are afraid you'll "poison" their minds, others simply prove to be superficial friendships that were only based on the church in common.   I don't think Heather was shunned because she got divorced, but I also don't live in Utah, where the church culture is vastly different (in a bad way) than in other places. 

I listened to a 2 hour podcast yesterday that Heather was on.  She is in a full-on faith crisis right now, and it's playing out on TV.   She is definitely on her way out, but it is very painful for her and I feel so badly for her.  So the shunning she feels may be due to her leaving and people being afraid of her for that.  Also, "leaving" is relative. You can become "inactive" but still have your name on the records of the church.  In that case, you can just start going again and become "active".  If you have your name removed from the rolls of the church, it's harder to come back, as you'd have to be re-baptized.  I don't think that happens all that often.

And "Mormon royalty" must be a Utah thing.  I live in New Mexico, have been a member my whole life and have no clue who her husband is.  

 

[Baltimore Betty]

20 minutes ago, greeneyedscorpio said:

*Here is my take as 53-year member who is on my way out*

As far as "shunning" after divorce, while shunning isn't a thing in the church officially, unfortunately, people who are out of the norm of the "typical" 2 married parents family do really feel out of place, as the church pounds "forever families" constantly and if you're divorced, you definitely don't fit that narrative anymore.  My sister is a divorced member and is still active  13 years after her divorce, but has often felt out of place.  

 There is no "shunning" policy a la Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses, but a lot of people in the church do distance themselves if you leave, for whatever reason.  Some are afraid you'll "poison" their minds, others simply prove to be superficial friendships that were only based on the church in common.   I don't think Heather was shunned because she got divorced, but I also don't live in Utah, where the church culture is vastly different (in a bad way) than in other places. 

I listened to a 2 hour podcast yesterday that Heather was on.  She is in a full-on faith crisis right now, and it's playing out on TV.   She is definitely on her way out, but it is very painful for her and I feel so badly for her.  So the shunning she feels may be due to her leaving and people being afraid of her for that.  Also, "leaving" is relative. You can become "inactive" but still have your name on the records of the church.  In that case, you can just start going again and become "active".  If you have your name removed from the rolls of the church, it's harder to come back, as you'd have to be re-baptized.  I don't think that happens all that often.

And "Mormon royalty" must be a Utah thing.  I live in New Mexico, have been a member my whole life and have no clue who her husband is.  

 

Thank you for your post, it is a shame that the church is so conditional.  

If Heather has her faith crisis on camera I hope she is ready to commit to leaving, if anyone in the church is watching this show they might not want to associate with her.

[film noire]

2 hours ago, greeneyedscorpio said:

I listened to a 2 hour podcast yesterday that Heather was on.  She is in a full-on faith crisis right now, and it's playing out on TV.   She is definitely on her way out, but it is very painful for her and I feel so badly for her.  

I really like Heather; she seems to have a healthy attitude towards her ex,  normal kids,  and no insane (and unnecessary) emotional displays.  Her talking heads aren't glib insults or invented beef, but issues she's genuinely facing.  (Talking about never having been in love? My god.  That was heartbreaking).  And yet, no self pity; she's not a whiner. How refreshing. 

Her presence actually feels - dare I say it?! - real.  And (for me) all of those everyday elements + living in a tight-knit religious community where divorce can shatter your emotional, social, and spiritual life = an interesting journey.   I think if Bravo got  rid of Thing One and Thing Two (the lookalike brunettes) kept MaryJen as side dishes (not the main course) and focused on Heather as the heart of the group,  the show might stand a chance of becoming something special. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by film noire

[MrsWitter]

On 12/10/2020 at 10:24 PM, LibertarianSlut said:

This implies that there is a set of expectations for Mary’s behavior, by virtue of her being black, something with which I disagree.  Yet you are asserting Jen meant something other than this idea you’re advancing for black behavior when she told Mary “you’re black!” and I’m not sure what it was, in your opinion.  

Can you explain the small minded, bigoted words to which you’re referring?  Nothing was said on the show that I can gauge on my own—but I think we have a fundamental disagreement as to whether there is a prescription for how “any” person should act by virtue of their race, or their ties to a given race.  That is the definition of tribalism.  

When Jen swore and and told Mary to not open her eyes at her in a particular way, Mary said “don’t get ghetto.”  Mary also said she wouldn’t go inside a convenience store when black people were loitering outside. Both of these statements draw on stereotypes that criminalize and demonize black people. If you are confused about the term “ghetto” and the damaging role of bigoted criminalization in the subjugation of black people, then there’s a world of research out there on these topics readily available via a simple general internet search or a search of academic databases. These aren’t “goal posts” set by @AryasMum or @SemiCharmedLife or @film noire or me (sorry if I left someone out who has been part of this conversation). They are fairly BASIC and generally agreed-upon understandings in most anti-racist work.
 

Jen wasn’t being particularly prescriptive in “black behavior.” She was saying, “yo Mary- you’re black too and this kind of language is harmful to you and your family as well.” Call that “tribalism” if you want, but Jen was asking Mary to not participate in the subjugation of herself and others who share her race (such as Jen’s family). 
 

ETA: I’m not team Mary or team Jen because I don’t particularly like either of them. This isn’t a defense of Jen, but an attempt to articulate what was playing out in that scene.

Edited December 12, 2020 by MrsWitter

[MrsWitter]

On a completely different note, I never knew how many people on this board had such strong feelings on bedskirts/dust ruffles. It so very Bunny MacDougal of y’all! “Up and at ‘em, George McFadden!” 
 

[LibertarianSlut]

This is all I can think of when I see Jen social justice warrioring:

😀

[filmfan2480]

-Heather comes across as most likeable or relatable.  But like anyone, aspects of her bug.

-Meredith seems pretty normal -- too normal and level-headed for a show like this.  But I like her (her son, not so much).

-Whitney comes across as very sweet.  But then she'll do or say something that makes my head spin.

-Lisa seems like a Narcissist with a capital N.

-Jen is abhorrent.  Her "outrage" level goes from 1 to 10 to 100.  No need.

-Mary showed her true colors this episode and, I find her almost as bad as Jen.

I keep watching and hoping for nuggets of humanity or genuine humor or interest ... but I'm disappointed so far.

[Starlight925]

1 hour ago, filmfan2480 said:

I keep watching and hoping for nuggets of humanity or genuine humor or interest ... but I'm disappointed so far.

Me too.

Each week, I'm tempted to remove it from the DVR auto-recording, but then I sit through it.  

What a horrible group of women, all of them.  

Heather seems the most relatable, and I respect the fact that she invited Mary to sit down and discuss issues, and she showed empathy towards Mary.  

But the others, including Mary?  What an awful collection of narcissism, ego, and materialism.

I've known quite a lot of Mormons in my life, having grown up very close to a Latter Day Saints church.  Not one even comes close to this wretched group.  

Edited December 12, 2020 by Starlight925

[LibertarianSlut]

@MrsWitter, I’m just going to stick to your points, and not how you made them.  What you decided is your opinion; it’s not gospel.  If you take offense to the word ghetto, that is your preference, but it’s hardly axiomatic.  I don’t take offense to the word “ghetto” so...there ya go.  I think “Grandpa Fucker” is a little worse.  I don’t need to do research on that one.  

I also said from the get-go that I wasn’t going to bring extrinsic evidence into this.  Libraries are good, learning can be fun, but I don’t need to dust off a book to call out racism as I see fit.  I want to talk about the show and what it means when a woman shouts to a black woman “you’re black!”  I have my opinion on that.  If you wish to sway my opinion—something in which you have not managed to succeed—the emotional component of the argument would have to be ratcheted down pretty significantly, because I’m not swayed by emotion.  

What generally tends to make people’s lives better is to live by a system that benefits them and their neighbors.  I am in favor of that type of behavior, and I’m against behavior that is confusing, condescending, and pushy, so Jen loses the day for me on that one alone.  

I make and receive arguments based on logic and observation, and I’m not interested in coalition building.  Everyone made their points precisely the way they chose to make them, and yours was not the most persuasive.  I disagree that suggesting one should make decisions as a member of a race when it flies in the face of their individual experience is “generally” agreed upon, and to the extent that it is agreed upon amongst various people, I think it’s wrong. 

If someone wants to disagree with me, I’m all for a well-intentioned debate, but as one knows, both sides need to have some common understanding of the terms of the discussion.  That’s why I made the analogy of asking for the placement of goal posts up thread, and if I am going to face off in a healthy way with a person, I will continue to ask for and relay goal posts as far as setting the terms.  Thank you.  

If you think Jen is in a position to preach to Mary what is good and what is not good for Mary’s family based on Mary’s race, I am afraid I am simply going to have to disagree with you again.  My advice is to let Jen be Jen, and let Mary be Mary, and until the day one goes to the other and asks “how can I live better?” this type of racial profiling crosses a boundary that I reject.  I dunno, except that if someone yelled across a table to someone else “you’re white!” it wouldn’t be taken as well.  Things that make you go “hmm”...

It’s interesting that you use the term “subjugation,” because I think that is exactly what Jen is attempting with Mary—she’s trying to bring Mary under her dominion and control through race-baiting and race-shaming.  

In summation, “live by the dictates of your race and not your conscience” doesn’t sit well with me.  As I pointed out, this is tribalism.  This is the exact thing people have been fighting against in this country—some for centuries—so I’m not going to stand for it when I see it on my screen.  Unless anyone has anything to add that is new and thought-provoking, I’ll leave it there.

I’m not sure how they’re scheduling this thing going forward, so I wish everyone to whom I don’t speak a blessed holiday.  🎄

[Crazydoxielady]

23 hours ago, film noire said:

Her presence actually feels - dare I say it?! - real.  And (for me) all of those everyday elements + living in a tight-knit religious community where divorce can shatter your emotional, social, and spiritual life = an interesting journey.   I think if Bravo got  rid of Thing One and Thing Two (the lookalike brunettes) kept MaryJen as side dishes (not the main course) and focused on Heather as the heart of the group,  the show might stand a chance of becoming something special. 

I couldn’t love or agree with your statement more. My husband watches with me and LOVES himself some Heather. She’s just very likeable. I would love less focus on Mary/Jen but yes keep them. Thing 1/2... don’t let the door hit you on the way out. And no Lisa, you can NOT touch it. 

[MrsWitter]

2 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

@MrsWitter, I’m just going to stick to your points, and not how you made them.  What you decided is your opinion; it’s not gospel.  If you take offense to the word ghetto, that is your preference, but it’s hardly axiomatic.  I don’t take offense to the word “ghetto” so...there ya go.  I think “Grandpa Fucker” is a little worse.  I don’t need to do research on that one.  

I also said from the get-go that I wasn’t going to bring extrinsic evidence into this.  Libraries are good, learning can be fun, but I don’t need to dust off a book to call out racism as I see fit.  I want to talk about the show and what it means when a woman shouts to a black woman “you’re black!”  I have my opinion on that.  If you wish to sway my opinion—something in which you have not managed to succeed—the emotional component of the argument would have to be ratcheted down pretty significantly, because I’m not swayed by emotion.  

I make and receive arguments based on logic and observation, and I’m not interested in coalition building.  Everyone made their points precisely the way they chose to make them, and yours was not the most persuasive.  

This isn’t a debate contest. What I stated is not simply my opinion- it is “axiomatic” for anyone who has familiarized themselves with anti-racist/racial justice research and dialogue over the last few decades. That’s why I directed you to look into it to clear up confusion. I’m not here to reinvent the wheel. Understanding the above-mentioned dialogue on race would be helpful in understanding the conversation between Mary and Jen. You can seek to educate yourself on it or not.

[film noire]

4 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

 In summation, “live by the dictates of your race and not your conscience” doesn’t sit well with me.  

 I think Jen's mangled point was more like “Live by the dictates of your conscience instead of racist assumptions." 

And (just in terms of the conversation ) Mary was the housewife Divine God who invoked a global Black reaction  ("Because to this day, I mean it! All Black people--")  not Jen: Jen pointed out that Mary was a member of the group she was stereotyping & insulting. I dislike both women, but Mary's comments - ghetto, hoodlum, fleeing a 7/11 if Black people are present - those seem much more messily mired in race than Jen reminding Mary she herself is Black (and therefore a member of  "All Black people--")  The second data point for me re; Mary is that when Heather confronted her, Mary did not throw "ghetto" or "hoodlum" at Heather as an insult; she called her two-faced.   So Mary's insults are (for Mary herself) clearly race-based, not race-blind. 

eta: Both women do share one thing, imo;  the ability to exhaust me while watching them "discuss"  matters of enormous importance,  on a low rent reality TV show completely unequipped to have this kind of crucial conversation.

Quote

@Crazydoxielady

Thing 1/2...

LOL!

Edited December 12, 2020 by film noire

[SweetieDarling]

On 12/11/2020 at 3:33 PM, film noire said:

I really like Heather; she seems to have a healthy attitude towards her ex,  normal kids,  and no insane (and unnecessary) emotional displays.  Her talking heads aren't glib insults or invented beef, but issues she's genuinely facing.  (Talking about never having been in love? My god.  That was heartbreaking).  And yet, no self pity; she's not a whiner. How refreshing. 

Her presence actually feels - dare I say it?! - real.  And (for me) all of those everyday elements + living in a tight-knit religious community where divorce can shatter your emotional, social, and spiritual life = an interesting journey.   I think if Bravo got  rid of Thing One and Thing Two (the lookalike brunettes) kept MaryJen as side dishes (not the main course) and focused on Heather as the heart of the group,  the show might stand a chance of becoming something special. 

Hmmm...I agree, wholeheartedly about Heather, but disagree about Things 1 & 2 and Mary and Jen. 

For me, the jury is still out on Meredith. I feel bad for her husband. She seems like she is done accommodating him and moving for his career, and likes where she is. He seems like he is still in love with her. I despise their son.

I kind of like Lisa. She's like the Heather DuBrow of this franchise, to me. She has real wealth and connections and is a bit snotty about it, but without feeling superior to everyone else (see Jen and Mary). For me, she brings the wealth porn these shows are supposed to be about.

Unlike you (sadly) I could do without Jen and Mary. Jen thinks she is the Teresa Guidice of this show, flaunting wealth, and her husband's status as if we should all envy her. Sorry, not buying it. She is overly offended by petty shit. Mary is just psycho, and could be entertaining, if she and her grusband weren't fleecing their flock.

 

 

[CrinkleCutCat]

Trying to work out why I’m still in...

I’m treating it like an anthropological assignment. The cultural mores of Utah, SLC, Mormonism and brand conscious materialism and ostentation are fascinating to me!

Such a long way away from my Aussie life, and not just physically!

Edited December 13, 2020 by CrinkleCutCat
Spelling is important

[CrinkleCutCat]

Legit question..... WHY is Jen’s husband living in her phone? Why would he be working such long hours?

[geauxaway]

6 hours ago, CrinkleCutCat said:

Legit question..... WHY is Jen’s husband living in her phone? Why would he be working such long hours?

I really need to know when this footage was filmed.  If it was during the football season, then yah he would be working a lot and traveling about every other weekend.  But still....they seem very separate.  And she can easily blame it on his work schedule.

[janiema]

8 hours ago, CrinkleCutCat said:

Legit question..... WHY is Jen’s husband living in her phone? Why would he be working such long hours?

He may just have decided to limit his appearances on the show. I can imagine that being on a Real Housewives show could lead to a lot of teasing in the locker room as well as a loss of authority with his players. So far I think he has done very well.

I’m surprised that Meredith’s husband has been up for all the marital strife scenes. This couldn’t possibly sit well with his corporate employers.

[SemiCharmedLife]

Do you think the scenes with Meredith and her husband Seth are reenacted for the series?  Some of them seem so awkward (but not in an authentic way) and Meredith comes off as being cold, whereas it could be that Bravo wanted to portray the marriage as falling apart to amp up the drama, even though it actually happened long ago.

[Bluesky]

Pure trash and not in a good way.  I can’t watch a woman who takes money from church members and uses it to buy tacky logo hats, scarves, bags, anything that proves it’s Chanel! Or Gucci!  

I tried to watch it but it just plain sucks. 
 

 

[heatherchandler]

On 12/12/2020 at 2:41 AM, MrsWitter said:

On a completely different note, I never knew how many people on this board had such strong feelings on bedskirts/dust ruffles. It so very Bunny MacDougal of y’all! “Up and at ‘em, George McFadden!” 
 

If you don’t have one, you can see the mattress!

I was surprised seemingly-perfectionist Meredith did not have one, and also that she had kind of a tiny bed.  Maybe Seth was staying in a guest room?

[IKnowRight]

23 hours ago, SweetieDarling said:

Hmmm...I agree, wholeheartedly about Heather, but disagree about Things 1 & 2 and Mary and Jen. 

For me, the jury is still out on Meredith. I feel bad for her husband. She seems like she is done accommodating him and moving for his career, and likes where she is. He seems like he is still in love with her. I despise their son.

I kind of like Lisa. She's like the Heather DuBrow of this franchise, to me. She has real wealth and connections and is a bit snotty about it, but without feeling superior to everyone else (see Jen and Mary). For me, she brings the wealth porn these shows are supposed to be about.

Unlike you (sadly) I could do without Jen and Mary. Jen thinks she is the Teresa Guidice of this show, flaunting wealth, and her husband's status as if we should all envy her. Sorry, not buying it. She is overly offended by petty shit. Mary is just psycho, and could be entertaining, if she and her grusband weren't fleecing their flock.

 

 

ITA

Jen ruins this show for me.  She is was too full of herself and over the top.  I wonder what she looked like before messing with her face.  She’s so severe looking, in the same was as Adrienne from RHOBH. She is hard to like. 

[ichbin]

23 hours ago, SweetieDarling said:

Hmmm...I agree, wholeheartedly about Heather, but disagree about Things 1 & 2 and Mary and Jen. 

For me, the jury is still out on Meredith. I feel bad for her husband. She seems like she is done accommodating him and moving for his career, and likes where she is. He seems like he is still in love with her. I despise their son.

I kind of like Lisa. She's like the Heather DuBrow of this franchise, to me. She has real wealth and connections and is a bit snotty about it, but without feeling superior to everyone else (see Jen and Mary). For me, she brings the wealth porn these shows are supposed to be about.

Unlike you (sadly) I could do without Jen and Mary. Jen thinks she is the Teresa Guidice of this show, flaunting wealth, and her husband's status as if we should all envy her. Sorry, not buying it. She is overly offended by petty shit. Mary is just psycho, and could be entertaining, if she and her grusband weren't fleecing their flock.

Heather, Whitney, Jen, and Meredith all have characteristics of real people I have come across in life.  They may be amping things up a bit for the cameras, but things are still rooted in real life  matters.  Mary and Jen seem "Made for TV".  The subject of their fighting is based on stupid Their displays of wealth are completely over the top. Yeah, yeah, most of us know enough to be skeptical of just how much "reality" is in Reality TV, but I think most of us also like to think that there is something genuine about any of these casts. What Mary and Jen bring is something altogether different.  Jen is a total caricature and Mary, who trots around in her fancy house and  designer clothes like a Clampett, with her Grandpa/Husband bears no resemblance to any real person I have ever known. 

[65mickey]

5 hours ago, Bluesky said:

Pure trash and not in a good way.  I can’t watch a woman who takes money from church members and uses it to buy tacky logo hats, scarves, bags, anything that proves it’s Chanel! Or Gucci!  

I tried to watch it but it just plain sucks. 
 

 

I feel the same way.  Bravo should be ashamed promoting this charlatan.

[Chatty Cake]

The Mary and Jen fight seems pointless. Jen seems to get mad after the fact. Like she wasn’t mad about the 7/11 comment until she was pissed about something else. 
I want to know what the Grandma was like! Why couldn’t she leave Mary the church without the grandpa? I’d also like to hear from some of the parishioners.

Whitney wrestling with her half brother was strange too. She was on the pole in front of her dad in the first episode and now this scene. Creepy family. Her husband looks a good 20 years older than her. I wish they’d have his first wife appear on the show.

Merediths husband still likes her. Did she cheat on him? She seems so indifferent about him.

 

[LibertarianSlut]

18 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

Whitney wrestling with her half brother was strange too. She was on the pole in front of her dad in the first episode and now this scene. Creepy family. Her husband looks a good 20 years older than her. I wish they’d have his first wife appear on the show.

I think it should be a virtual requirement for former spouses to make an appearance on the show to spill tea, especially if the new spouse in question is acting like their marriage is made of spun gold.  Not only would I like to see Whitney’s husband’s first wife, but I’d really like to get the backstory from Allison Edmonds and Shane Simpson’s first wife over on OC.

I realized on rewatch that Whitney’s father totally had a relapse.  That was what that whole part of the episode was about, and the drive to his sober living.  Things didn’t just “get difficult” without the resources of rehab—the dude who is like 60 with jet-black hair and not one touch of grey—was likely using drugs from the time we met him at the vow renewal in episode one.  There would have been no reason for the dad to go back to rehab and say to his former counselors that they’re ready to start the hard work all over again if the dad hadn’t picked up. 

I resent a half-assed storyline.  If it was too private to share, keep it off TV, and if it’s fit for our consumption, then just tell us the damned story without creating room for plausible deniability.  I am not a fan of euphemisms, such as “struggling.”  Was the guy hitting the crackpot again or not?

Whitney was caught in another big lie this episode with regard to her dad and his drug addiction.  At the beginning of the season, she told us that every single person dropped her dad except her when his drug abuse became apparent (I remember posting that I didn’t believe her), and now we have the brother-straddling scene, where Whitney’s brother is offering all kinds of support to the guy, asking whether he should keep texting her dad and stuff, and what does the father need, etc.  So now I have Whitney pegged as a confirmed liar, not just a suspected one, which was what I thought from jump.  

Is there any kind of moral compass to this show? 

[Chatty Cake]

8 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:I think it should be a virtual requirement for former spouses to make an appearance on the show to spill tea, especially if the new spouse in question is acting like their marriage is made of spun gold.  Not only would I like to see Whitney’s husband’s first wife, but I’d really like to get the backstory from Allison Edmonds and Shane Simpson’s first wife over on OC.

I realized on rewatch that Whitney’s father totally had a relapse.  That was what that whole part of the episode was about, and the drive to his sober living.  Things didn’t just “get difficult” without the resources of rehab—the dude who is like 60 with jet-black hair and not one touch of grey—was likely using drugs from the time we met him at the vow renewal in episode one.  There would have been no reason for the dad to go back to rehab and say to his former counselors that they’re ready to start the hard work all over again if the dad hadn’t picked up. 

I resent a half-assed storyline.  If it was too private to share, keep it off TV, and if it’s fit for our consumption, then just tell us the damned story without creating room for plausible deniability.  I am not a fan of euphemisms, such as “struggling.”  Was the guy hitting the crackpot again or not?

Whitney was caught in another big lie this episode with regard to her dad and his drug addiction.  At the beginning of the season, she told us that every single person dropped her dad except her when his drug abuse became apparent (I remember posting that I didn’t believe her), and now we have the brother-straddling scene, where Whitney’s brother is offering all kinds of support to the guy, asking whether he should keep texting her dad and stuff, and what does the father need, etc.  So now I have Whitney pegged as a confirmed liar, not just a suspected one, which was what I thought from jump.  

Is there any kind of moral compass to this show? 

I get the feeling that the dad wanted $ not emotional support because he was most likely still using like you said. 

[Lassus]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:00 PM, MrsWitter said:

You can seek to educate yourself on it or not.

If it's not in Ivan Denisovich or The Fountainhead, it ain't happening.

 

Regarding general complaints on the show being trash or somehow beneath the level of the others shows, storyline- or character-wise, I'm still not seeing it.  I mean, ALL of the Real Housewives franchise is trash, that's the only reason I watch it.  These women and their supporting cast of families do not lie or debase themselves and others any more than any other RH show.  They certainly do so differently and in different surroundings, I suppose, but I still just think it's a particularly odd subjective judgment.  Lack of moral compass?  Unlike who, like, Vicki?  Sonja?  Convicted felon Teresa Giudice?  The entire franchise has no moral compass. 

My main complaint is that it's TOO MUCH like the other shows, very little different at all.  The same arguing for the show, interacting bizarrely, not actually living their normal lives.  I mean, if you took this show against the first season of OC, or NY, I'm sure you could catch the differences easily.  But this show against those current shows?  Hell naw.

Sure, Salt Lake may crash and burn, but I think it's more for the sameness of production rather than the character of the cast.  Everyone's a couch expert, though.  

Edited December 14, 2020 by Lassus

[filmfan2480]

On 12/13/2020 at 2:00 AM, CrinkleCutCat said:

Trying to work out why I’m still in...

I’m treating it like an anthropological assignment. The cultural mores of Utah, SLC, Mormonism and brand conscious materialism and ostentation are fascinating to me!

Such a long way away from my Aussie life, and not just physically!

I think this is why I'm watching, as well.  I just wish most of the cast were not ... the cast.

[LibertarianSlut]

6 hours ago, Lassus said:

If it's not in Ivan Denisovich or The Fountainhead, it ain't happening.

Aw, come on, give me a little bit more credit for diversity—if it comes from Jordan Peterson, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, or Ben Shapiro, I’m always game to “educate myself”!  🤗

[MrsWitter]

13 hours ago, Lassus said:

If it's not in Ivan Denisovich or The Fountainhead, it ain’t happening.

I don’t know... I think there could be some Cicero in there too. Or at least a garden variety guide like this:

 

 

[IKnowRight]

On 12/10/2020 at 10:24 PM, LibertarianSlut said:

That’s her prerogative.  I’m not sure why it’s being given a pejorative spin.  Strikes me as quite disempowering.  

As far as the cast goes, I only go by what’s on the show.  I’m not bringing extrinsic evidence of what they have allegedly done in the past into my argument.  

Ok, then if I interpreted it incorrectly, and it wasn’t Jen reminding Mary that Mary was black in an effort to get Mary to conform to Jen’s version of the correct words or behavior of the black race, what did it mean?  I would imagine that one who strongly disagreed with my interpretation would have an interpretation of one’s own.  

 

This implies that there is a set of expectations for Mary’s behavior, by virtue of her being black, something with which I disagree.  Yet you are asserting Jen meant something other than this idea you’re advancing for black behavior when she told Mary “you’re black!” and I’m not sure what it was, in your opinion.  

Can you explain the small minded, bigoted words to which you’re referring?  Nothing was said on the show that I can gauge on my own—but I think we have a fundamental disagreement as to whether there is a prescription for how “any” person should act by virtue of their race, or their ties to a given race.  That is the definition of tribalism.  

I need to know exactly where you’re placing the goal posts before I can form a proper response.  

Yes, I agree.  It’s Mary’s prerogative to get plastic surgery, just like it was Jen’s prerogative to get a face transplant!  At least Mary looks more natural and pretty.  Jen looks like Madame, she’s hard on the eyes.  
The majority of the black women on these shows...RHOP, RHOA, etc have had plastic surgery.  I mean... look at the changes in NeNe’s face over the years.  The more important question is did Mary finance her surgeries with church money?  That’s the true crime.  

ITA on Jen.  She’s a piece of work.  It amazes me how certain people have designated themselves the culture/color police.  We live in a damn melting pot/multicultural society.  I agree, what’s with the tribalism?  Everyone can act the way they wish to act. I’m 50% Italian and also French, but I don’t “act Italian” in the way it is displayed on RHONJ. People can only tell I’m Italian because of my coloring. I don’t speak, dress or act anything like Teresa, Melissa, Delores...

If Mary acts a certain way, that’s up to her.  Jen acts like a bitch, is that an ethnic thing?  According to watching housewives shows, I would say being a bitch is an equal opportunity profession! 

 

[ladle]

I agree with everyone saying that 1) Mary and Jen are both terrible; and 2) it was hard to get invested in, or even entertained by, that fight because it made no sense.

I was confused by Heather's comments about how her ex supports her financially so that she can "be available 24/7 to her kids."  That seems to be at odds with her portrayal so far as a driven career woman who owns/runs a successful business.  (To be clear, I am NOT at all casting shade on her for working.  As a mother with a full-time job myself, I bristle at the notion that I'm somehow "not a full-time mom" -- like, somehow I stop being a mother when I'm at work?  But I also wouldn't say it's so great that my husband supports us financially so that I can be there for my kids at all times.  Coming from Heather, it just seemed like...odd framing, I guess?)  

Why is the grusband always shown in the same ill-fitting black t-shirt?  Does he lack personal access to any of that sweet, sweet tithing money?  

Edited December 15, 2020 by ladle

[dosodog]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:33 PM, film noire said:

I really like Heather; she seems to have a healthy attitude towards her ex,  normal kids,  and no insane (and unnecessary) emotional displays.  Her talking heads aren't glib insults or invented beef, but issues she's genuinely facing.  (Talking about never having been in love? My god.  That was heartbreaking).  And yet, no self pity; she's not a whiner. How refreshing. 

Her presence actually feels - dare I say it?! - real.  And (for me) all of those everyday elements + living in a tight-knit religious community where divorce can shatter your emotional, social, and spiritual life = an interesting journey.   I think if Bravo got  rid of Thing One and Thing Two (the lookalike brunettes) kept MaryJen as side dishes (not the main course) and focused on Heather as the heart of the group,  the show might stand a chance of becoming something special. 

I like Heather because she makes it clear to everyone to leave the appetizers on the table while she steps out for a second.